Religious question (NOT a debate!!)

[j.griff]

 

My whole point in mentioning anything I did, lest anyone think I want to make this all about one thing, is that the TRUE meaning of ministry has been lost. It's all a numbers game now and no actually ministering is occuring. If the church could get back to the true meaning of "minister", we might not have so many disgruntled people.

 

 

ITA with that. Now, I must say though ( I am not Catholic) that the Catholic Church seems to do WAY more ministering to those in need than any other church I've seen. I am sure there are some exceptions to this, I'm sure that in some place (maybe even here) there may be a small protestant church that puts mininstering to others above the "needs" of the congregation for new carpet or a bigger parking lot or VBS... but that's just not the norm, IME. :( :mad:

[mellifera]

 

My whole point in mentioning anything I did, lest anyone think I want to make this all about one thing, is that the TRUE meaning of ministry has been lost. It's all a numbers game now and no actually ministering is occuring. If the church could get back to the true meaning of "minister", we might not have so many disgruntled people.

 

Amen!:D I am a Christian, and I have noticed this. Christianity calls for love, for sacrifice, for discipline. To truly live in a Christ-like manner is hard! er - make that impossible. We are human. He is divine. But that is no excuse for the behavior that goes on in many churches. There are churches that do the things GothicGyrl would like to see them do. Unfortunately there aren't as many of them as there should be. And, the other unfortunate thing is, the negative experiences/examples are remembered much clearer and for longer than the positive ones.

[*anj*]

 

I don't think I was particularly remarkable or exceptional, not in my circle of fundamentalist friends, anyhow. I think any of the families in my church and in like-minded churches would have helped an individual in need, or found practical help for her and facilitated this help.

 

Life isn't always neat and tidy and perfect. And she without sin can just pick up that stone to cast. (Not.)

 

Maybe we would have had a different attitude if we'd have owned an SUV, I dunno. ;)

 

Thank you for saying this. Life isn't always neat and tidy and perfect. And we're better off for it...makes things more interesting.

There have been at least 5 cases in our extended family where young girls got pregnant. A couple of them were really young, like 14. Dh and I offered to adopt the children, we offered assistance to the moms as well. No one ever took us up on it, but we would've. For Pete's sake, every time I see a news story about an infant found in a trash dumpster I say "okay, let's go get him, we'll raise that baby." And I would, but they always end up finding a home for the baby. We don't plan to have any more babies of our own, but we've never completely ruled out the possibility of bringing another baby into our family.

 

And we don't own an SUV either. :p

[Peek a Boo]

Thanks Pam --that was pretty much my point. There ARE venues of help, but people make up their minds for reasons other than availability of help: The lack of options isn't the problem. And we see that mentaility in areas other than just abortion.

 

and I don't own an SUV ;)

[Scarlett]

The money thing in religion is pretty sickening. And the hypocrisy.

 

Defining hypocrisy can be tricky though. Many people feel that if a person is advocating following the teachings of Christ and that person errs in some way that they are hypocritical. That is just not true. It takes more than that to be hypocritical. I've had someone very close to me carry on a double life for several years----it was a very very painful time for me, BUT it did not shake my faith. It did not shake my confidence in my organized religion. I felt sickened that he seemed to be bringing so much shame on us all, and 'getting away' with horrible behavior because he just kept lying about it, but I still felt it was all him. Eventually, it was all out in the open, the double life was over, my relationship with him was effectively over, and life goes on. HE was a hypocrite.

 

The money thing is another telling thing for me. It takes money to live, for sure. But you should ask yourself, is any one person or any group of people in this organization getting rich here? Because that is a telling sign. Religion is not or should not be about money. Jesus said, 'you receive free give free.'

 

Anyway, if you are in any organization and you disagree with any of the doctrines or major policies...then you should get out. If you are unsure of things, then pray to God for answers. He answers those with a sincere heart.

[Grace is Sufficient]

I'm not that good at quoting, esp. with the new format, but I'll try the old cut-n-paste method... excuse the lack of attribution:

 

quote

For me, it boils down to: I prefer company where I'm not always defending myself, not having to listen to bigoted, hatefilled discussions about how everyone is going to hell for not following your breed of faith, etc

end quote

 

I only saw that kind of anger on one side of the discussion. I'd venture to guess, in fact, that the most unkind comment from the other side was mine pointing it out...

 

Perhaps I shouldn't have, then.

[j.griff]

 

I only saw that kind of anger on one side of the discussion. I'd venture to guess, in fact, that the most unkind comment from the other side was mine pointing it out...

 

Perhaps I shouldn't have, then.

 

GG wasn't talking about this type of angry discussion occuring within this thread, she is speaking of this type of thing happening out in the real world, with real "christians" who behave in this manner. It is EASY to judge people, and condemn them to hell because you don't see them as being good enough. It is EASY to place judgement on someone else because of their words. It takes more Thought, more LOVE, more time, and more work to step back and empathize/sympathize with what someone is saying. This thread is not supposed to be an "us vs. them" thread- and I am saddened by the judgements I see coming from the supposedly "good side". :( People who have been offended by Christians have every right to be angry, and they have every right to express themselves here without the need for insults.

I am NOT writing this with a bitter tone, I am writing this with a sad tone.

[Homeschoolmomto2boys]

GG, you said:

"I do quite well, thank you very much. Which is another reason I chose to back away from Christianity. I am tired of all the restrictions and the assumptions that I must be one way and only one way and I can't possibly be a Christian if I'm not that way (to stress, I realize YOU didn't say this). Which is why I do quite well. I am not limited to "only" Church, I go ALL over, to many places some here would drive by crossing themselves. :) I go clubbing, I drink, I socialize with my friends, I get out of the house all the time. Church is not the end all be all of socialization and because I realize that.."

 

I'm new to the forum, so I realize that you don't "know" me at all. This thread caught my attention, however, and I wanted to just address some of the posts. I haven't read very many of the responses, so forgive me if this has already been pointed out.

 

I'm sorry that Christians have left such a bad taste in your mouth. Your response to the way you've been treated is to "back away" from Christianity. This is because so many people today have been sold a bill of goods that will lead to that.

 

Becoming a Christian is not about what's in it for you. (Or me, or anyone else.) It begins with a realization that one has offended a Holy God with our sin.

When we see ourselves through God's eyes, see how we are separated from Him because of our offense against Him, it becomes a question of how we can rectify that gap. Not a question of how we can make Christians act the way we want, or why Christians don't measure up. Christianity is not a "club" that we join and leave if the members disappoint.

Salvation is between you and God. It's realizing that you are a sinner with no hope of reconciliation with God unless your sins are forgiven.

 

How does one receive that forgiveness? By repenting of our sin (turning from it and to God) receiving Jesus' work on the cross as payment for sin, (the Bible says that without the shedding of blood there's no forgiveness of sin) and giving our entire selves to Him to lead and direct as He sees fit.

 

When looked at that way, there's no reason to "back away" from Christianity because it's no longer about you and your disappointments. It's about realizing that you have the choice of living with God in heaven or being separated from Him.

 

God Bless!

[Scarlett]

There ARE venues of help, but people make up their minds for reasons other than availability of help: The lack of options isn't the problem. And we see that mentaility in areas other than just abortion./QUOTE]

 

Very true. Because if people really wanted help when an unborn baby is unwanted, they could get it. And adoption would be an option. I worked with a girl years ago, who was pregnant and planning an abortion. Several of us, BEGGED her not to do it. We BEGGED her to let us have the baby. I can still see her face plain as day saying, 'oh I could never give a child of mine up for adoption.' She had already had 4 abortions. She also had one toddler....so I can't imagine that she was some poor girl who didn't really know what she was doing when she had the abortion.(or got pregnant out of wedlock multiple times either). It pains me to think of to this day.

 

I also have a very close friend who after 20 years of friendship confided to me that she had had an abortion when she was 18---in part because her parents pressured her into it. She has been tortured all of these years by what she did. My heart just aches for her.

 

I don't buy the argument that we can't stand up for what is right unless we have the instant solution to every situation someone has gotten themselves in. It is never wrong to do the right thing. It is never right to do the wrong thing.

 

I don't own an SUV either. :p But I wouldn't be picketing abortion clinics if I did. Surely, I wouldn't be bombing it. Or throwing blood on the doctors. I think those people are extreme. And take away from the actual issue instead of adding to it.

[j.griff]

Why do you insist on calling that anger when in fact, it is flat out truth? Those are the reasons for me not being on your side and as I told 6pack above, that you choose not to see them as valid is your problem, not mine and doesn't make my reasons any less.

 

In fact, it only stands to prove my points--"your side" refuses to see any valid reason for us not joining you and therefore you choose to call US the ones who are angry and "intolerant". It's called Passing the Buck and you are practicing it right now.

 

And it doesn't woo people to the Christian faith, it's one of those things that pushes people away from Christianity. It's not good witness, period. :(

[Kelli in TN]

Scarlett,

Your posts reminds me of a song I like an awful lot...

 

"Is this one for the people? Is this one for the Lord?

Or do I simply serenade for things I must afford?

You can jumble them together, my conflict still remains

Holiness is calling, in the midst of courting fame

Cause I see the trust in their eyes

Though the sky is falling

They need Your love in their lives

Compromise is calling

 

What if I stumble, what if I fall?

What if I lose my step and I make fools of us all?

Will the love continue when my walk becomes a crawl?

What if I stumble, and what if I fall?

 

What if I stumble, what if I fall?

You never turn in the heat of it all

What if I stumble, what if I fall?

 

Father please forgive me for I can not compose

The fear that lives within me

Or the rate at which it grows

If struggle has a purpose on the narrow road you've carved

Why do I dread my trespasses will leave a deadly scar

Do they see the fear in my eyes? Are they so revealing?

This time I cannot disguise all the doubt I'm feeling"

 

DC Talk

 

I can't answer all the questions brought up here and in truth I did not read all of the back and forth because I could not see it being fruitful. But I know that as a Christian I am being watched. My kids are watching, my family members are watching, my church family is watching, the cashier at Kroger is watching.....am I authentic? Am I real? Do I really believe this stuff? Does it show in my life? Can I give an answer for the hope that lies within me? Does hope really lie within me? Do I care about someone else's suffering more than I care about my comfort?

 

I fall so short, I fall so short. When I really think about it I am undone.

[Tami]

Frankly, people of all faiths, or no faith at all, are....well....fallen and HUMAN. Sadly, Christian churches are full of people who aren't perfect, and who sin.

 

I've often wondered at those who point the finger at Christians who are "hypocrites." Specifically, wondering if they could convert and show us all how to be the perfect Christians. ;)

 

I think that there is a call for humility here, and a recognition that none of us can live the perfect life that Jesus lived. We as Christians will always fail to live up to that ideal, because we are not God.

 

At the same time, I know countless people whose lives have been changed by God's grace. If you think they are bad as Christians, and count them hypocrites, you should have seen them PRE-Christian. Many of us were drug addicts, living extremely immoral lives and worse. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt, knowing that sanctification and change is a life-long process.

 

I have never know a single person whose sin issues were *worse* after true Christian conversion. One must also remember that only God knows who is truly and authentic Christian. A "hypocrite" may indeed be a false convert. In fact, maybe many are - but I am not qualified to judge that. Only God knows!

[Carol in Cal.]

NOW--if your church actually stepped up and out and said "Listen we don't want you to abort, so we are not only offering you shelter, clothing and food, free, we are also going to teach you how to care for that child, help you get a job, get off drugs, get back in to school, etc........... and all you have to do in return, is not abort" --then I wouldn't be so angry about it.

 

But very few, if any, CHURCHES, do this. Individuals like yourself, maybe. But the actual church, who should be stepping up and doing this anyway, no.

 

But there are always strings attached (and not aborting in return for the above isn't a string..you know what I am talking about) and those strings are not good.

 

My whole point in mentioning anything I did, lest anyone think I want to make this all about one thing, is that the TRUE meaning of ministry has been lost. It's all a numbers game now and no actually ministering is occuring. If the church could get back to the true meaning of "minister", we might not have so many disgruntled people.

 

What you are missing is one of the key teachings of Christ about charitable work--which is that it is to be done discreetly. Christ was very sarcastic about those who show off when they fast, or pray, or give alms. He said, "They have their reward," meaning that their reward is an earthly good reputation. Then He said, "But when YOU fast, anoint your head and wash..." i.e. don't make it so obvious and pathetic. And He goes on to say that "Your Heavenly Father, Who sees in secret will reward you in secret."

 

So. I'm really torn here. Because of this passage, I feel very reserved about telling you what Christians do in our town. OTOH, I'm not bragging on myself. So here goes. (uneasily)

 

In our town, Christians help mothers who may be abortion - minded keep their babies if they want to, or with adoption if they want to. They provide prenatal care, food, formula, BF classes, CB classes, baby and toddler furniture, clothing, bedding, towels, diaper bags, toys, books, parenting classes, maternity clothes--all free--for children through about age 4. One of the aims of all of the places like this that I know of locally (totalling 4 in number locally that I have direct experience with) is to show love and respect for these women no matter what their decision is. Each baby that is born gets a layette of all brand new stuff, so that the mom knows how precious that baby is to all of us. Used items that are donated to these organizations are lovingly screened and cleaned, and if they can't be restored to 'like new' they are sent to another charity. This is to respect and honor those who will receive these items. The ministries offer post-abortion classes for women who are upset and regretful about their choice, to help them get past it and forgive themselves and move on. Again, their choice to take this if it's helpful and ignore it if it's not.

 

There are many churches locally that are not in areas of town where they have a lot of drop-ins by needy people. One group of them banded together years ago to support a church downtown in providing food, clothing, small appliances, bedding, towels, backpacks of school supplies, and gifts to the many needy people around that location. These churches could have just sat back and said that they are meeting their local needs, but instead they proactively looked further and tried to do more. Again, the respect with which their clients are treated is phenomenal--not with a superior or 'largesse' attitude at all. This ministry keeps many, many families from becoming homeless--families who spend all of their income renting a one room space in a boarding house to stay dry and warm, and who can't afford food or clothes or anything else.

 

There is a great Christian ministry locally that takes in homeless families for 3-6 months straight. The key here is that they each get their own room with its own lock. Did you know know that homeless shelters usually make you carry out your stuff every night and lock the doors behind you, and that you usually don't know whether you can come back in that night or not? So knowing that they are truly housed for that long is huge, and it gives them a vantage point from which to build toward permanent housing. Families also have daycare, job training, and other skills help. They have good food reliably. They can save their welfare or job income so that they get first and last months' rent together so they can exit into their own place. When they leave they take towels and sheets and blankets with them. Some of the kids get to go to week long summer camps, all expenses paid.

 

I could go on.

 

Christians do physically minister, a lot. They don't always trumpet this. In fact, they don't often trumpet this.

 

PS (edit): Any Christian will also tell you that we don't do enough. As long as there are poor people and such problems, we don't do enough.

[j.griff]

These posts defending Christianity, Christians, etc. are getting the h3ll on my NERVES.

NO, no one is perfect, do you really think that atheists, gnostics, etc are that shallow and/or ingorant?

Yes, SOME people will use "hypocrisy" as an excuse to live a "sinful" life and leave "the church". So what?

Now, I *am* irritated here, but I am not *lashing out*, just voicing my frustrations- so don't take this as being an *angry post*, okay?

Arguing with people who have walked away from their religion, telling them they are wrong and just didn't "understand" is NOT going to bring them back. You are totally discounting their valid experiences, opinions, etc. and that's not gaining points for "the church".

[Kelli in TN]

Frankly, people of all faiths, or no faith at all, are....well....fallen and HUMAN. Sadly, Christian churches are full of people who aren't perfect, and who sin.

 

 

I think that there is a call for humility here, and a recognition that none of us can live the perfect life that Jesus lived. We as Christians will always fail to live up to that ideal, because we are not God.

 

 

 

Tami,

This is excellent. Our pastor often says to our congregation, "If you find the perfect church please don't join it! You will just mess it up!!":p

 

Humility is the answer, prefering others to ourselves, serving humbly and joyfully, loving people fully, risking everything and then when we lose risking it all again.

 

We will always fall short, and that sounds so sad but it is not. There is so much joy in the journey.

 

I slung you some rep, sister.:D

[Homeschoolmomto2boys]

That's fine, GG. That's your call. :)

 

I do want to clarify that I was not singling you out as a sinner. It's the condition of every, single person who has ever been born (other than Jesus). I am a sinner of great magnitude. Paul said he chiefest of sinners. The point of my post was to say that sin separates us from God -not other Christians.

[j.griff]

j.griff--I flung something your way. :)

 

Thanks GG, and in answer to the "proposal"- Okay- but I am married, have dreads, drive a Suburban with my four kids inside, and I AM moving to Florida soon so watch out :D :p ;)

[Scarlett]

I for one have no intention of shoving my God or my Faith down anyone's throat. However, this thread, like all threads on this board, isn't restricted to the OPs single question being answered. Several of us had thoughts and comments and wanted to express them. When I grow to dislike the tone of a thread, I unsubscribe. I don't yell at people over their posts.

[Tami]

These posts defending Christianity, Christians, etc. are getting the h3ll on my NERVES.

NO, no one is perfect, do you really think that atheists, gnostics, etc are that shallow and/or ingorant?

Yes, SOME people will use "hypocrisy" as an excuse to live a "sinful" life and leave "the church". So what?

Now, I *am* irritated here, but I am not *lashing out*, just voicing my frustrations- so don't take this as being an *angry post*, okay?

Arguing with people who have walked away from their religion, telling them they are wrong and just didn't "understand" is NOT going to bring them back. You are totally discounting their valid experiences, opinions, etc. and that's not gaining points for "the church".

 

 

I'm not trying to gain any points, just expressing my view. I did not address the original topic - but merely mused on the subtopic that Christians are hypocrites. I also see nothing wring with debate, nor with telling me that I am wrong, if that is what you think. I think radical honesty, if done kindly, is the best order of the day. I hope I am not adding any stress to your day - please feel free to ignore my posts if they are irritating.

[Grace is Sufficient]

Had you left out the words 'bigoted' and 'hate-filled,' and merely stated that you dislike the Christian belief that Jesus said, "No one comes to the Father but by me," I'd not have commented on it.

 

I'm "calling it anger" because of those words.

[j.griff]

I'm not trying to gain any points, just expressing my view. I did not address the original topic - but merely mused on the subtopic that Christians are hypocrites. I also see nothing wring with debate, nor with telling me that I am wrong, if that is what you think. I think radical honesty, if done kindly, is the best order of the day. I hope I am not adding any stress to your day - please feel free to ignore my posts if they are irritating.

 

LOL, you are not adding any stress to my day. It's just that the context of these posts is insulting to those who've expressed their reasons for leaving Christianity. I don't see anything wrong with debate either, when it's done in a more respectful context. I think it would be more appropriate to start a new thread discussing/debating the things mentioned here. I don't think that these "preachy" posts are in the right location. They are offensive in this thread, that's all.

Of course, that's MNSHO and everyone is free to continue their preachy posting :cool:

[Cindy in C-ville]

I LOVE how you cared for your friend – without judgment and with love. That’s just beautiful.

 

~Cindy

[Scarlett]

But no one was yelling at them for posting, we were asking them to stop invalidating our opinions and to stop doing the very thing you said you won't do.

 

Not just mine, but several of us have been told by 4 people that our feelings are invalid, we are "angry", we are "volitile", we are "intolerant", and that all we truly need is to be "saved" by "Jesus" and we will be fine.

 

The OP had a valid question, we gave her valid answers and were promptly told they were "invalid". But you don't want me to be upset over that?

 

Sorry I don't didn't see anyone tell you that your answers were 'invalid'. I saw answers back to your answers. Opinions. Discussions. And then it FELT like you and JGriff were angry and yelling. So I guess I should have said I FELT like you were angry and yelling at us to shut up. Surely you won't invalidate my FEELINGS by denying that I felt that way.;)

[Tami]

This is another real beef of mine. Where are all the people who are called by God, in the bible, to help out the poor, the needy, the elderly, the alone and pregnant, etc...? It becomes a "not unless you are a member" game. I was told in my former church (evangelical, I know I know) that it IS "all about the numbers". If you tithed this much this week, "Tithe MORE. We need more!!"

 

One of my very biggest upsets is abortion clinics. Ok--you are pro-life, I'm seriously not knocking you for that, honestly. But umm, that clinic you are protesting and working to keep women from having one in--what do you do after you "Win"? Do you actually HELP that woman (who may very well be having one because she simply and honestly can NOT take care of it, and for whom adoption is not the answer as it isn't for most) take care of that child? Do you direct her to services for medical? Housing? Substance abuse?

 

Or you do stand there and count the win? :( Sadly, I can also answer this, they stand there and count the "win". I was flat out told "It is not my job to help them, only to stop them from killing their child, that's more important than anything else".

 

So is food, basic shelter.. what if she really does not have that? "Doesn't matter, the child lives".

 

See where I'm going with this? Where is the True Christian love, kindness, charity?

 

 

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that Christian organizations do far more charitable work around the world than atheist organizations. Conservative, Evangelical Christians give the highest percentage of income to charity - MUCH higher than the secular folks. Christians have a loooong way to go in this area, but I believe that to say that Christians don't practice charity is a generally false statement.

[j.griff]

ROFLOL, this is highly amusing to me. :D

I capitalized a few words for emphasis, because I am just *not* consistent with how I choose to emphasize certain words. But there were not all caps sentences in my post, nor GG's. I even said that my post was NOT an "angry post", and that I was NOT lashing out. I don't know how to be any clearer.

I just voiced my disappointment and frustration at the insistence of christians on preaching their views in this thread.

[Rhondabee]

Interesting thread by the way.:) First of all, let me say that I am a Christian. However, there have been many times when I have questioned what I believe because of the differences of other Christians. I do believe in God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. I believe the Bible is the infallible Word of God and that the Holy Spirit gives us the understanding of the Word. (Don't wish to debate my beliefs, just contributing to the thread:))There are times, though, that although my fellow Christians are "saying" the Word, it doesn't always ring true to what I "think" the meaning is. These times throw me into confusion. I have to really pray and seek the Lord for answers. When these answers don't come quickly, I get even more confused. But, eventually, things fall into place. My prayers usually go something like this, " Lord give me truth, or give them truth." Sometimes I find that I get eye opening revelations, sometimes my fellow Christians will get them. This always cements my faith. However, I can see how someone would falter in perseverence waiting for an answer and how the enemy could over take them and pull them away from the faith.

 

My dh's sisters are very charismatic. I'm not. They think I'm "spiritually dead"; I think (I try not to think this way, but it's my honest gut reaction) that they care much more about money, clothes, cars, houses and "claiming" these things "in the name of God" than they do about God or other people.

 

At times the differences in our spiritual emphases really causes me to doubt God's love, my own salvation, etc. I *know* they are "good" people. I believe we are all saved. I believe we worship the same God. I don't think *anybody* has it all "right" when it comes to God. But, there are times when it doesn't seem possible we can ALL be right. And, they are so sure and so certain -and they do have spiritual gifts that I do not - that I really start to doubt myself.

 

What I try to do is remember that God is a spiritual being ~ and infinite. And, so, really, as closely as I try to walk with him, he is *so much bigger* than what I can see from my POV (my past, my experiences, my personality). Surely he must be more multi-faceted than *I* am. Even with people, I might see one thing in a certain person, while they see something else - another side - entirely, because they see that person through their own experiences and personalities. Or, just like I can have two really good friends, and yet my relationship with each friend has it's own flavor to it.

 

Sorry - I'm losing my thoughts 'cuz lunch is beeping at me. But, I do appreciate your post!

[Scarlett]

You are most certainly allowed to feel that way. But then I'd implore you to actually read the thread if you've missed certain posts telling us how wrong we are for not having faith. I've got 3 pages right now and two of those posts are on this very page. Please scroll up and read them.

 

Unless you don't consider "you are a sinner, come to Jesus, that's why you feel this way, you haven't found jesus" this as invalidating, then I can understand why you missed it.

\

 

I've read the thread Toni. Every word of it. And although I can't recall every single post that was directed to you, I do believe that what has been said on here is feelings, opinions and suggestions. *I* am a little offended when you start telling everyone that 'this' (our opinions and feelings and suggestions) is what drove you away in the first place. That seems as if you are attempting to shut down the conversation after you've had your say.

 

And for the record, I've never told anyone that they will go to hell for anything. I do believe the Bible is the word of God and when something is written about in the Bible as being sinful, then it is sinful. Regardless of how inconvenient or painful it is to refrain from said sin. So God has made the 'judgment' on the sin---not me. And furthermore, God has the right to forgive sinners and the ability to read hearts, minds and intentions. So I thankfully leave that to Him.

[Tami]

Tami, please go back and read the whole thread.

 

you know what, nevermind. It isn't worth arguing over. Some of you refuse to see what we are saying and continue to ignore what we are saying. SolaMichelle, you asked a wonderful question, which I and many others tried to answer for you.

 

It is unfortunate that our points are being proved in this very thread. But there you have it.

 

Le Sigh.

 

 

GG, your feelings are your feelings and I respect that. I'm not trying to ignore you, but am saying that you must be honest when making generalizations. If you insist on being offended by a call to accuracy, that is up to you.

[Kelli in TN]

My dh's sisters are very charismatic. I'm not. They think I'm "spiritually dead"; I think (I try not to think this way, but it's my honest gut reaction) that they care much more about money, clothes, cars, houses and "claiming" these things "in the name of God" than they do about God or other people.

 

At times the differences in our spiritual emphases really causes me to doubt God's love, my own salvation, etc. I *know* they are "good" people. I believe we are all saved. I believe we worship the same God. I don't think *anybody* has it all "right" when it comes to God. But, there are times when it doesn't seem possible we can ALL be right. And, they are so sure and so certain -and they do have spiritual gifts that I do not - that I really start to doubt myself.

 

What I try to do is remember that God is a spiritual being ~ and infinite. And, so, really, as closely as I try to walk with him, he is *so much bigger* than what I can see from my POV (my past, my experiences, my personality). Surely he must be more multi-faceted than *I* am. Even with people, I might see one thing in a certain person, while they see something else - another side - entirely, because they see that person through their own experiences and personalities. Or, just like I can have two really good friends, and yet my relationship with each friend has it's own flavor to it.

 

Sorry - I'm losing my thoughts 'cuz lunch is beeping at me. But, I do appreciate your post!

 

Good post!

:)

[Scarlett]

No one is attempting to shut down the conversation except those (and I'm not saying YOU fall into this) who are saying "all we need is Jesus". We were asked why, we explained why and were promptly told that our "why" is not valid because we don't have the right faith.

 

 

Frankly, I don't recall the scenerio you are describing. I'm sure you can come up with pages of quotes to prove me wrong, but I guess MY point is, they were only offering what they have....why does that tick you off? All you have to say is, 'thank you. I've heard that argument before and I just don't buy it.' Or, 'well you can believe your way and I will believe mine.' Instead you start preaching how hypocritical we are to say abortion is wrong if we aren't giving financial and/or other support to girls in trouble. You don't know who of us are giving what, but you call us out like you think you do.

 

And please don't call everyone who has offended you my 'sisters'. That feels condenscending and offensive.

[PariSarah]

Your religious charities come with a "sure, but" attached to them.

 

It's the "yeah but" that you are forgetting. Charity shouldn't have strings attached to it, especially when those strings are woven around faith.

 

What is the "sure, but"? I'm not aware of any Christian charity whose members wouldn't jump at the chance to share their faith, but, Toni, it's just not true that even the majority of Christian charities have some sort of religious requirements attached to them.

 

Habitat for Humanity?

Catholic social services?

 

You don't have to be Catholic to receive aid from CSS. Habitat for Humanity makes prayer on the worksite completely optional, and has no faith-based requirements for the people they help.

 

The vast majority of Christian charities that I'm familiar with, that are in my town, give aid without expecting anything in return.

 

Some that are dealing with more extensive problems (drug addiction, e.g.) have behavior-based restrictions that are integral to the treatment of these extensive problems, but that's not the same as saying they have "faithy" strings attached.

 

I just don't see that you have any justification for saying "your religious charities have strings attached" without using a word like "some." H3ll, I'd even let a "many" slip by. But all? Please.

[Tami]

LOL, you are not adding any stress to my day. It's just that the context of these posts is insulting to those who've expressed their reasons for leaving Christianity. I don't see anything wrong with debate either, when it's done in a more respectful context. I think it would be more appropriate to start a new thread discussing/debating the things mentioned here. I don't think that these "preachy" posts are in the right location. They are offensive in this thread, that's all.

Of course, that's MNSHO and everyone is free to continue their preachy posting :cool:

 

 

 

I think I understand what you are saying. Let me check. I think you are saying that when people are asked a question and answer it honestly, they are feeling slapped in the face for it. I hope this is a safe place for all of us. It is hard when hurtful over-generalizations and judgments start flyin'. You know, secular people are THIS way, Christians are THIS way, yada yada. If I was to post why I left a certain belief system, agnosticism, that is not the way I would go.

 

And (OT!) I want to know how you do dread locks. I think my dd would look great in dreads and she has difficult to manage naturally curly hair.

[OnTheBrink]

Most of the discussion has been centered on the behavior of others, but very little on the behavior of the One who began it all. As Cathy shared, people will fail us, but that should not determine our loyalty to Jesus (Yeshua).

 

I did not become a believer to be part of an earthly organization. I became a believer to be part of the Kingdom of G-d. I'm going to serve Him, and Him alone. I think of the persecuted believers in other parts of the world that are killed, jailed, and have countless other things done to them. I think in many ways they are more blessed than we are here in America. They know what it means to serve Him, and Him alone. They know what it means to truly lay down their lives for the One Who gave His life for them.

 

Yeshua Himself was betrayed by His brothers, but that did not sway Him from doing what His Abba had called Him to do.

 

We need to remind ourselves of why we came to faith in the first place. I would hope it was because you took hold of the One who took hold of you by giving His life for you. Men will fail you, and hurt you, etc., but why would that stop you from purposing to serve Him, no matter what man may do to you (even when men do horrible things in His name)?

 

Beautifully posted. :)

[j.griff]

I think I understand what you are saying. Let me check. I think you are saying that when people are asked a question and answer it honestly, they are feeling slapped in the face for it. I hope this is a safe place for all of us. It is hard when hurtful over-generalizations and judgments start flyin'. You know, secular people are THIS way, Christians are THIS way, yada yada. If I was to post why I left a certain belief system, agnosticism, that is not the way I would go.

 

And (OT!) I want to know how you do dread locks. I think my dd would look great in dreads and she has difficult to manage naturally curly hair.

 

Yep, that's pretty much it. :) http://www.dreadheadhq.com is where I got my info for dreads, they have instructions on how to make them, and of course they want you to buy their products. ;) if you buy anything from them, supposedly you can use my email addy for a free bottle of locking accelerator on your first order- just let me know if you want it and I'll PM you my add. :D

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

I gather that your dear brothers and sisters in Christ . . . uh, "helped" you invent some of it.

 

*sigh*

 

Well, dearest, I'm sorry you had a bad day. I had a bit of a snarler myself. But I suddenly find myself more motivated to get my degree and get out there and teach.

 

And I just remembered I have ice cream, pretzels, and chocolate sauce in the kitchen. Join me for a snack?

 

 

You know, while I was struggling those ten years, some years of which I admitted my struggle and sought support and prayer, they really didn't. They were loving and kind and supportive and understanding -- just ultimately sure that I'd struggle and overcome, just as they had, or so they said. They really didn't heap hurt on me. I have no complaints. Then again, I'm still in the closet for 80% of my former friends -- didn't really feel the need to take out newpaper ads in three countries and seven major cities, KWIM? -- so there would surely be shock and disappointment. But no, they didn't heap hurt on me, not so's one would remark on it, anyhow.

 

And there's more to my idea that a reprobate shouldn't exactly be the Christian's best friend -- it's not just the verses I referred to, as of course I wouldn't consider myself a believer that was perpetually living in sin nor an unbelieving wallower in the mire. It's more complex than that, more "the whole counsel of scripture" sort of thing.

 

Deeply religious people tend to be guarded around me if they really know me, and if I simply let them believe what they wish because of my background (the Right School, the Right Ministries, the Right Attitude), that introduces a shallowness into the relationship right there. Anyway. No worries, but it's more complicated than just the fact that sure, believers should be hospitable, kind, loving, etc, to unbelievers. I'm sure you understand.

 

I'm soooo there for the snacks. I'll bring some Thin Mints and some Creme de Menthe for the ice cream. We'll call it Happy.

[PariSarah]

Yes, SOME people will use "hypocrisy" as an excuse to live a "sinful" life and leave "the church". So what?

 

I think the "so what" is that some of us are expressing regret that our friends, that people dear to us, are missing out on a beautiful thing. There are some of us who continue to treat those dear friends with respect even when they become something other than Christian, and Toni's vitriol doesn't really apply. But we don't stop wishing that those people would someday experience the beauty of knowing Christ. That's not disrespectful or hateful or "mean"--it's friendship. (And I'm getting this from Aristotle, by the way, not Christian theology: friendship is wishing another person's good. I wish my friends the good that I've experienced with Christ.)

 

I can understand that prior bad experiences will make people "hear" even reasonable, gentle words as judgmental or condemning, but I'm not going to stop speaking those reasonable, gentle words. Especially if someone else opens the door. If, for example, someone says to me, "All you Christians . . ." about something that, in fact, there's no "all you" about, it would be irresponsible and unkind of me not to give her the chance to know otherwise.

 

I know that there really are judgmental, condemning jerks out there. I know them, I've lived with them, I occasionally have been one, although I try not to be. But I don't think it's fair to characterize the tone of this thread as judgmental and condemning.

[Scarlett]

I know that there really are judgmental, condemning jerks out there. I know them, I've lived with them, I occasionally have been one, although I try not to be. But I don't think it's fair to characterize the tone of this thread as judgmental and condemning.

 

Well said.

[Tami]

 

It's the "yeah but" that you are forgetting. Charity shouldn't have strings attached to it, especially when those strings are woven around faith.

 

 

I don't know what you mean by "strings." Around the world, Christians are fighting for social justice issues for people of all faiths. Spiritual care is part of the total person. Nobody if forcing Christian conversion, nor denying help for those who don't convert. Secular charities come with strings too, specifially, do not address the spiritual needs of those they are helping, and keep God out of the equation. There are always 2 sides to a flap jack. :)

 

 

That charity should be divorced from spiritual care if simply your opinion, and is no more valid than anybody else's. You are welcome to it, and I hope we can encourage each other to 'give 'til it hurts' to our favorite worthy causes.

[j.griff]

Let me clarify- the "Yep, that's pretty much it." was meant to be directed at the first three sentences of that quote. I totally didn't even understand the last sentence in the first paragraph- so I just kinda shrugged it off.

And I do not think that the actual, real life experiences that people have posted about here, or their opinions, are "over-generalizations" or "judgements".

IMO, it would be respectful to post defensive posts in a new thread when the posters that are being defended against are such personal posts. Does that make any sense?

The way I see it is like this: I don't think any church would appreciate an atheist coming in and trying to prove the bible wrong, stirring up the congregation, confusing some members, etc. They would be offended, agitated, angry, and feel that the atheist is out of place, out of line, and should spread their atheist message else where (if at all- many would think they just shouldn't be allowed to spread such a blasphemist message at all :) ).

I'm all for freedom of speech, I just prefer that those who are speaking have a bit of tact. ;)

[Scarlett]

Scarlett--I think all I can do at this point is laugh. We HAVE said those things, many times in this thread. And it's being ignored. We are being told that we don't have the right faith. Why does it tick me off? Geez, please go back and re-read the whole thread again. No wait--you said you did and you still don't see it? Then I can't help you. It's there in black and white. I can't help if you refuse to see why it would tick anyone off. "Sisters" was in quotes for a reason.. if they aren't yours, then maybe you should be ashamed of their behavior as well? And I do believe (due to past admonishment) that I've stated "the general you" many MANY times in this thread. I've also pointed out when I wasn't specifically talking about YOU. So again, please go back and re-read the whole thread before you assume that I'm speaking of any one particular person IN THIS THREAD unless I mention them by name.

 

You did mention me by name in regards to the 'sisters' comment. And I'm not ashamed of what anyone on this thread has said. I am not responsible for any of you or connected to any of you.

 

I certainly do not agree with your assessment that 'it's all there in black and white.' And likewise, if you can't see that it isn't there, then I can't help you. I guess that leaves us agreeing to disagree. I least *I* agree to disagree with you. You of course are free to NOT agree to disagree.

[Mrs Mungo]

Becoming a Christian is not about what's in it for you. (Or me, or anyone else.) It begins with a realization that one has offended a Holy God with our sin.

When we see ourselves through God's eyes, see how we are separated from Him because of our offense against Him, it becomes a question of how we can rectify that gap. Not a question of how we can make Christians act the way we want, or why Christians don't measure up. Christianity is not a "club" that we join and leave if the members disappoint.

Salvation is between you and God. It's realizing that you are a sinner with no hope of reconciliation with God unless your sins are forgiven.

 

I agree with this and I think there are several other people who would as well. There are several people who have said they still consider themselves Christians but they have struggles with the church. I think that's telling. I have a good grounding in the faith, I definitely believe in Christ as my savior, etc. However, if *I* struggle with the church, how are non-believers supposed to find their way?

 

I understand what you're saying, Tami and agree that I'm just as imperfect. However, you have to admit that when Toni says: "Well, this is in reference to the General you, not YOU exactly, but saying someone is going to hell for being gay or that gays are causing the earth to go to hell in a hand basket IS bigoted and hate filled." Now, *I* have never said and don't believe 9/11 was a judgement from God for our tolerance of gays but when Christian *leaders* say things like that, it *does* push people away from the church and from God. Every Christian gets painted with that brush because they are leaders and respected in the Christian community.

 

I agree with you, Tami, that the Christian community does a *ton* of good in the world. I will even disagree with Toni that the good *always* has strings attached. Although I must disagree with this: "Nobody if forcing Christian conversion, nor denying help for those who don't convert." Churches *do* deny help to people who aren't members of the church, I've seen it a hundred times. I'm not saying the church should be required to let just anyone in the community use all of its services but let's not pretend there are never any strings (to use the phrase used so far in the posts).

 

All of that aside, some Christian leaders are easily written off as crazies and that allows people to write off the church and Christianity as a whole. Christianity doesn't have a monopoly on judgement. That comes in many forms and from many places. Christians aren't perfect, nobody is. Christian leaders aren't perfect, nobody is. Nobody is asking for perfection.

[Mrs Mungo]

Woohoo!! Slather me in them negatives. Yes! I am bathing in the light that is Neg Rep!! :p

 

If it makes you feel better, I got bad rep for my first post in the thread...was the Halloween bit? I don't know, they didn't actually comment.

 

If I truly need help, I really do not want to have any strings attached to this help (and I'm not talking about "we give you dental work, if you can do 2 hours of community service" strings either. You DO Have to give/take some. )

 

I didn't really want to do this but I will. We once moved to a new town. My husband immediately deployed overseas for a long period. I found a church and started attending. I volunteered in this church in more than one capacity. However, when I felt I needed some counseling I was told I had to be a member. I didn't want to join the church as a *member* when my husband had never even attended the church. So, I was denied. I'm not bitter about it, I understand the reasoning (intellectually) but I was going through a *very* difficult time and would have appreciated the help.

[PariSarah]

Wait a minute, why are you allowed to say I'm spewing vitriol and that it is invalid, but I can't say I'm sick and tired of being told how many times I'm going to hell for believing in x,y, and z?

 

Well, Toni, I didn't say that you or your vitriol were invalid, but I certainly could have been clearer. I intended to say that your vitriol doesn't apply to those of us that are trying to love our friends even when they happen not to be Christian. So, let me rephrase: your vitriol doesn't apply to at least some of the posts in this thread, to at least some of the Christians I know, and to at least some of my own actions when I'm acting in accordance with who I know Christ to be. It is not categorically invalid (nor are you), but it is an inaccurate characterization of some people and thus an unfair charge when applied to all persons belonging to the category "Self-avowed Christian."

 

I never questioned your right to say that you were sick and tired of anything. I questioned the accuracy of the charges you leveled, and the indiscriminate fashion in which you leveled them. For you to say "You Christians" is just as wrong as for me to say, "You Goths."

 

Please direct me to the post in this thread that has explicitly condemned you to hell and given the reason for it. I have, truly, missed it.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

I LOVE how you cared for your friend – without judgment and with love. That’s just beautiful.

 

~Cindy

 

You're sweet.

 

My point was, really, that it wasn't a terribly unusual thing. We might have heard of others' good deeds through the grapevine or whatever, as most people didn't exactly advertise, but it's not like we were these bizarre whackadoo do-gooders out there. :p

 

Just regular people doing what people do.

[KarenNC]

I left Christianity because I slowly came to the realization that it purely and simply was not an accurate reflection of the spiritual reality that I had experienced all my life. I spent decades trying with every fiber of my being to be what I thought was what I was supposed to be or that was the only possible choice---a Christian. In the end I came to see that I could not reconcile my religious experiences and my beliefs about them with even the most liberal Christianity. There are a few core things that you have to believe and I just flat didn't believe them. Looking back, I realized that I had not fully believed them since I was at minimum 10 years old though I didn't know it at the time.

 

There is a story in Judaism about converts being Jewish souls born in Gentile bodies and now "coming home". That is what it has been like for me. Perhaps I am a Hellenic soul that was born into a Christian body....who knows?

 

I miss much about Christianity, particularly this year when we are studying the Middle Ages as well as around the holidays. I truly love the liturgy of high church, much of the music (especially Gregorian chant), the pageantry, etc. There is much to admire in Christianity and in what it has done historically as well as much to criticize, as in any other institution. Enjoying some of the trappings of a religion, however, is not a substitute for actually believing in its core tenets.

 

It would also be infinitely easier for me to be able to pretend that I was still a Christian, at least enough to "pass". It would be easier to find a homeschool group, find curricula, participate in my community and in the homeschooling opportunities of the wider community, be part of my extended family, etc. It would also be easier if I could believe that religion didn't matter to me and they were all the same anyway. Unfortunately, however, that would mean living a lie and teaching my child to do so. That I am simply not willing to do. Convenience is also not a substitute for believing in the core tenet of a religion.

 

So in the end, it is not and never was about what others do. It was about what I have experienced as spiritual reality and what I believe about that as well as about living a life of integrity and honesty, whether or not it is convenient.

[Homeschoolmomto2boys]

Mrs. Mungo, you said:

I agree with this and I think there are several other people who would as well. There are several people who have said they still consider themselves Christians but they have struggles with the church. I think that's telling. I have a good grounding in the faith, I definitely believe in Christ as my savior, etc. However, if *I* struggle with the church, how are non-believers supposed to find their way?

 

I addressed GG the way I did because she said she had backed away from "Christianity" - not a church. Perhaps she meant churches, but I understand "Christianity" to mean a belief system.

 

There's no doubt that churches and Christians have failed to behave in a Christ-like manner at times. I have been in lousy churches and wonderful churches. Some churches are being led by the Spirit and some are just social organizations meant to make people feel better about themselves. I'm reminded of the exhortations to the various churches in the NT, and how they measured up in some areas and failed miserably in others.

 

However, that does not relieve a person from the responsibility they have before God. All of us will stand before Him and give account. There will be no excuses accepted. Either we will have the blood of Christ covering our sin or we will not. If we have Christ's blood covering our sin, we will be exonerated on that basis and that basis alone.

 

Man's guilt is what will condemn him, and there will be no exceptions based on how poorly he was treated by people proclaiming to be Christians.

 

I don't say that in a heartless way. I totally understand what you're saying. (and GG, too) My heart is heavy at the thought of the rejection of Christ based on flawed people.

But it is not love to not stress the importance of making a choice to follow Christ while we still have the choice. BTW, My motivation for sharing my thoughts does not lie in my desire to be proven right or be self-righteous or to preach. I'm motivated by a deep longing to see others come to Christ - and thus, be reconciled to God. In doing so, I'm fully aware that it will offend some - but Scripture tells me that the Gospel is on offense to some.

God bless.

[GothicGyrl]

Well, Toni, I didn't say that you or your vitriol were invalid, but I certainly could have been clearer. I intended to say that your vitriol doesn't apply to those of us that are trying to love our friends even when they happen not to be Christian. So, let me rephrase: your vitriol doesn't apply to at least some of the posts in this thread, to at least some of the Christians I know, and to at least some of my own actions when I'm acting in accordance with who I know Christ to be. It is not categorically invalid (nor are you), but it is an inaccurate characterization of some people and thus an unfair charge when applied to all persons belonging to the category "Self-avowed Christian."

 

I never questioned your right to say that you were sick and tired of anything. I questioned the accuracy of the charges you leveled, and the indiscriminate fashion in which you leveled them. For you to say "You Christians" is just as wrong as for me to say, "You Goths."

 

Please direct me to the post in this thread that has explicitly condemned you to hell and given the reason for it. I have, truly, missed it.

Except that, again, the purpose of asking the original question was "why did we leave Christianity" and we said why. That would have to involve us stating "christians did this to us" and we should not have to add millions of disclaimers throughout our post that we are expressing OUR opinion of why WE left, since the original question was posed those of us who had left and not those of you who have stayed.

 

Therefore, any post that comes in stating "you just haven't found Jesus yet" or any form thereof, is applicable to those of us who have stated reasons why we left. Those statements made, would fit our reasons.

 

Therefore, it is NOT an " inaccurate characterization of some people and thus an unfair charge when applied to all persons belonging to the category "Self-avowed Christian."" because we are firstly, not speaking(nor did we proclaim otherwise) of people ON THIS BOARD (until some of them came in to the thread later to tell us we were wrong) and we were speaking of the general concensus of christians. So, what we were asked to do and subsiquently did, was an accurate way for us to answer.

 

I cannot help that you feel offended by this, especially since I've not named names from anyone here (except for those who did exactly what we stated was the reason we left). I've not ever said anyone on here specifically condemned me to hell for anything because that was not the original point of the OP, which is what any of us were answering.

 

I also cannot help that you cannot see the few posts in the previous pages from 4 different members as being and doing exactly what some of us have said we did not want. We were asked (again!!) why we left, and we stated as much not expecting to get told all we have to do is find Jesus.

 

That may be what YOU believe, it may be what they believe, but it is not what *I* believe and since *I* was asked the question(and others like me), it was wrong for (general) you to come in and start preaching and telling me and others we are wrong to feel this way because (general)you don't believe those who wronged us did anything wrong.

 

Please read Mrs. Mungo's post. She said what I just said above, better than I can say it. That's all I can say. You (YOU) may, in effect, feel that I shouldn't be offended by these posts because that's what you (YOU)believe also, but the truth is, you(general) aren't going to win anyone over to your(general) side by continuously telling people how wrong we are for feeling that way.

[PariSarah]

Parisarah:

"sure we'll baptise your kid, become a PAYING member of our church first"

"you need dental help? Please attend this membership class first, then we'll help you"

"if you want to find God in our Church, become a member. Classes are offered only twice a year though, so take us up on it. When you do this, we'll take your opinion seriously"

"We need you to tithe more. We understand you are not a member, but you are not tithing enough."

"Why haven't you become a member yet? Your kid cannot stay in Missionettes unless you become a member, those are the rules"

"I'm sorry we can't help you. We have a rule against helping non-members of the church".

 

I'm sorry for your bad experiences, Toni, but I'm having trouble seeing some of these as denials of charity. Baptism is not charity. Missionettes are not charity. Your problem seems to be that some churches want their membership vows to mean something. This would be an interesting discussion for us to have, but it is irrelevant to the discussion of whether or not Christian charity is ever offered without requiring church membership.

 

How many more "yeah but" examples do you want me to give you?

 

I want you to give me examples for every Christian charity on the planet, because your initial accusation was deliberately general. You said "Your religious charities come with a 'yeah, but' attached to them."

 

Catholic Charities and Habitat, by law, can't deny services based soley on faith. Neither can the Salvation Army, Goodwill or any one else like it. But I do believe, again, this would have been seen if it had been read, that I've stated many times, that I am speaking of CHURCHES charities as the thread was about CHURCHES charities, not entire enterprises run by conglomerated big business churches.

 

Ah, I see. So, when you use the word "religious charities," I should have understood "the churches from whom I've asked certain things and been denied." I'm glad you're starting to clarify your meaning. Because when you answered a thread regarding the prevalence of social justice actions among Christians with a comment about "Your religious charities," the logical reading was that you were denying the existence of effective, generous financial and personal assistance that is given without strings attached.

 

In fact, you're still talking about interpersonal dynamics and doctrinal/ethical clashes at the churches you've been involved with. Not the millions of soup kitchens, medical clinics, lending closets, hospitals, schools, aid societies, food pantries, counseling organizations, and emergency aid societies that are all over the world, that give their services free of charge and with no expectation of return. You weren't talking about any of those, even though that's what the person you were responding to was talking about. You were changing the subject, then, yes?

 

Or maybe you're saying that the effect those millions of organizations, large and small, is virtually nil compared to your (justified) anger and being poorly treated in at least some of the scenarios you're describing above?

 

Or perhaps what you're really saying in all these posts is that your experience has been so negative that you refuse to believe that something like what you experienced doesn't taint all of those millions of organizations, and that no amount of testimony will convince you otherwise? That you know what's really going on in the heads of all the millions of people involved with them, and you know that it's bad.

[j.griff]

I'm motivated by a deep longing to see others come to Christ - and thus, be reconciled to God. In doing so, I'm fully aware that it will offend some - but Scripture tells me that the Gospel is on offense to some.

God bless.

ITU where you are coming from, I just totally disagree that this is the place for it.

This brings to my mind the idea of personal rights- where does a persons right to not be harassed by a religion end, and a persons freedom of speech begin? And vice versa.

[GothicGyrl]

homeschoomomto2boys:

 

I addressed GG the way I did because she said she had backed away from "Christianity" - not a church. Perhaps she meant churches, but I understand "Christianity" to mean a belief system.

 

Both. I did not like **religion** to begin with, but I did especially back away from both. Churches **are** the worst, but the "faith" part of the system, I don't agree with either.

 

My heart is heavy at the thought of the rejection of Christ based on flawed people.

But it is not love to not stress the importance of making a choice to follow Christ while we still have the choice. BTW, My motivation for sharing my thoughts does not lie in my desire to be proven right or be self-righteous or to preach. I'm motivated by a deep longing to see others come to Christ - and thus, be reconciled to God. In doing so, I'm fully aware that it will offend some - but Scripture tells me that the Gospel is on offense to some.

 

And this is the crux of my contention with what you said. Please do NOT pray for me, do not get a heavy heart because I don't want to get saved and please stop trying to "rescue" me. i do not need it, nor do I want your type of "save". It is insulting to me to think I've got people out there "praying" for me to "come to Jesus".

 

I do know that it does say "ALL come to Christ in HIS own time"--which means all of your "heavy heart" and motivation for sharing is doing is driving me away. Far away. YOU do not bring anyone to Christ, HE does. If I am meant to believe, HE will show me. Not you. Your words will do nothing but cause anger and that anger leads to dissolvment.

 

It also says something about "the worst thing a Christian can do is to be a stumbling block for others".. this isn't just in reference to Christians, yanno. It also means for you to not be any kind of stumbling block for a non-believer, to Christ. And words like what you keep saying are just that.

 

Whether you believe this or not, that is how it is.

 

Disclaimer: I am speaking to both Homeschoolmom and to the general you.

 

I want you to give me examples for every Christian charity on the planet, because your initial accusation was deliberately general

If you understood it to be "deliberately general", then I should not have to do as you ask, because I was speaking "in general", which means just that--general. The rest of what you said, I can't tell whether it was snark, snot, or rude. You ask me to do one thing, I do it, then you dismiss and deny that I did it, turn around and ask me to do another thing and do it all over again. Since I cannot please you no matter how I do it, I'll just go stick my nose in a corner and allow my self to be thumped repeatedly, ok?

 

I've got to go to work anyway, so while I'm gone, just make sure I don't start bleeding, what with all the thumping I have to take. I'll be sure to clean it up when I come home. I promise.

 

(yes, the above was snark. I can't win for losing).