Question about time limiting lessons/subjects

[Piper]

So, I've been mulling over how to streamline our homeschool days a bit better for next year.  One concept that I've seen mentioned several times is setting a timer for each subject and once the timer goes off, that's it - it gets put away until tomorrow.  

 

My question is, how do you deal with that mentally? My dd, some days, can take hours to do a single page of math, just because she's "not in the mood" and spends most of her time complaining and/or goofing off.  If I set a time limit of, let's say, 45 minutes for math, here's what I picture: bad day, two problems get done...next day, the page is finished...next month we're a couple of weeks behind...by the end of the year we're only halfway through the work...by the time she reaches senior year, she's only doing freshman math....can't get into college...general freak out! :)  

 

OK, so that's a bit nuts, but honestly, how do you deal with that?  How do you come to peace with the fear that your kid is just going to let it slide, and that you will end up just getting more and more and more behind?

[Ellie]

So, I've been mulling over how to streamline our homeschool days a bit better for next year.  One concept that I've seen mentioned several times is setting a timer for each subject and once the timer goes off, that's it - it gets put away until tomorrow.  

 

My question is, how do you deal with that mentally? My dd, some days, can take hours to do a single page of math, just because she's "not in the mood" and spends most of her time complaining and/or goofing off.  If I set a time limit of, let's say, 45 minutes for math, here's what I picture: bad day, two problems get done...next day, the page is finished...next month we're a couple of weeks behind...by the end of the year we're only halfway through the work...by the time she reaches senior year, she's only doing freshman math....can't get into college...general freak out! :)

 

OK, so that's a bit nuts, but honestly, how do you deal with that?  How do you come to peace with the fear that your kid is just going to let it slide, and that you will end up just getting more and more and more behind?

 

Sometimes when children are given a time limit, they are miraculously able to finish within that time frame.

 

I would not allow a child to work that long on anything.  I'd be doing some serious research and pondering and probably doing something different, right now.

[Jayne J]

If you are really worried about getting behind, maybe you could decide what you think she should be able to do in that time (or conversely, schedule an amount of time during which you think she should be able to finish the pages required to finish the book in the year--and be generous with the time) and have her finish whatever she did not get done during the allotted time in the evening or continue math through vacations if you are not on schedule. And/or let said child know that if they finish a subject before the end of the school year, they will be able to take a break from it.

 

Honestly, I tried it and found that, for math at least, a daily page/lesson requirement worked better for my kids, but YMMV.

[Berley]

I have two children that have a "beat-the-clock" mentality and totally go for this.  i have another child, however, that would fall so far behind it would be ridiculous. I do something similar with her, but not exactly the same.  Basically, we have a lesson and she has a specific amount of time to complete that subject.  Once her time is up, she puts that subject away and moves on to the next thing.  At the end of the school day (when *I'm* done), anything unfinished becomes her "homework" and she goes back to work on it.  The catch is that I'm totally available (or try to be) to them for help until about 3:00.  After that, they're most likely on their own because I have to get supper started, start clothes washing, etc... Sometimes she finishes it that day and sometimes she doesn't. If everything isn't complete by Friday afternoon, she has to get up at 6:00 on Saturday morning (when DH is normally up and moving around) to complete the rest of her schoolwork.  She works on it as long as she has to on Saturday and/or Sunday to get it completed.  Unless we have a swim meet or she needs to help with yard work, etc, she is allowed no screen time, no play time, no sleeping in, no relaxing, no nothing (except eating and bathroom breaks) until all school work is complete.  Really the difference is that I have an amount I expect to be completed each day/week and we shoot for that.  If she chooses to daydream her days away and get up early on Saturday to do schoolwork, that's her choice, but I want a realistic number of lessons completed each week.  When she's having trouble with a concept, I don't mind adjusting expectations. When she's being lazy or doesn't want to focus, that's another story.  It's amazing how fast those lessons get completed when brother and sisters are watching a show or outside playing and she is sitting in the schoolroom by herself.   ;)

 

ETA:  My DD is 12, so a bit older than yours, but I would definitely apply this to my DD8 if I needed to.

 

[MinivanMom]

Homework.

 

Seriously. One of my children was having an attitude problem with finishing math. When the time limit was up I said, "Okay, we are out of time for math, because I need to read literature and history to you and your sister. You will have to finish your math this afternoon." He sure finished it quick that afternoon when he was stuck inside at the table while everyone else played outside with their friends. It only took a couple times of doing this for him to figure out that I was serious. Now we don't have any attitude problems; he would much rather get it done during the allotted time than miss out on playing later.

 

This is assuming, of course, that it's an attitude problem rather than a problem with understanding or assigning too much work.

[Piper]

I would not allow a child to work that long on anything.  I'd be doing some serious research and pondering and probably doing something different, right now.

 

Believe me, I have and I am.  This is part of it. :) 

 

 

I have two children that have a "beat-the-clock" mentality and totally go for this.  i have another child, however, that would fall so far behind it would be ridiculous. I do something similar with her, but not exactly the same.  Basically, we have a lesson and she has a specific amount of time to complete that subject.  Once her time is up, she puts that subject away and moves on to the next thing.  At the end of the school day (when *I'm* done), anything unfinished becomes her "homework" and she goes back to work on it.  The catch is that I'm totally available (or try to be) to them for help until about 3:00.  After that, they're most likely on their own because I have to get supper started, start clothes washing, etc... Sometimes she finishes it that day and sometimes she doesn't. If everything isn't complete by Friday afternoon, she has to get up at 6:00 on Saturday morning (when DH is normally up and moving around) to complete the rest of her schoolwork.  She works on it as long as she has to on Saturday and/or Sunday to get it completed.  Unless we have a swim meet or she needs to help with yard work, etc, she is allowed no screen time, no play time, no sleeping in, no relaxing, no nothing (except eating and bathroom breaks) until all school work is complete.  Really the difference is that I have an amount I expect to be completed each day/week and we shoot for that.  If she chooses to daydream her days away and get up early on Saturday to do schoolwork, that's her choice, but I want a realistic number of lessons completed each week.  When she's having trouble with a concept, I don't mind adjusting expectations. When she's being lazy or doesn't want to focus, that's another story.  It's amazing how fast those lessons get completed when brother and sisters are watching a show or outside playing and she is sitting in the schoolroom by herself.   ;)

 

ETA:  My DD is 12, so a bit older than yours, but I would definitely apply this to my DD8 if I needed to.

 

Love this!  This sounds great.  I like that it limits the impact of "dawdling" on the rest of the school day, and that it also gives the child responsibility for their own choices.  Good life lessons! :)  

 

 

This is assuming, of course, that it's an attitude problem rather than a problem with understanding or assigning too much work.

 

Oh, it is totally an attitude problem.  The same work can take only 30 minutes on another day.

 

 

Thanks for your great advice, everyone.  I really like the concept of discerning and defining "what should be done by the end of this week".  I think I will be limiting the "lesson" time and any spillover goes into homework - and into Saturday morning if needed.  Thank you!

[Rachel]

I use a timer, it's usually for 15 or 20 minutes though since I have a 6 year old and that seems to be the right amount of time for him. If he is focusing we usually finish the page when the timer goes off. He just finished SM 1a so it isn't a huge deal to finish, probably a minute or less. If he is dawdling I try to assess why. If I think he isn't understanding, he is done for the day even if only 2 problems were finished. When he is just not focusing because he doesn't want to do math, we quit when the timer goes off, but the page has to be finished as homework before he can do anything "fun". This allows him to reset, plus he doesn't enjoy math so the timer helps him realize he won't have to sit at the table "forever" working on it. He is really easy to read so it's easy to tell why he is dawdling though.

[LivingHope]

I highly recommend that you get the Teaching from Rest ebook/audio set and listen to Sarah's interview with Andrew Kern. He really speaks well about assessing your child with himself/herself and not with other children; how 15 minutes of focused attention is where it's at (think Charlotte Mason short lessons); and how he doesn't encourage trying to teach a certain & complete lesson in a certain time frame, but to teach the child instead. He also has audios through his website, The Circe Institue.

Teaching from Rest: http://amongstlovelythings.com/shop/

[Piper]

I highly recommend that you get the Teaching from Rest ebook/audio set and listen to Sarah's interview with Andrew Kern. He really speaks well about assessing your child with himself/herself and not with other children; how 15 minutes of focused attention is where it's at (think Charlotte Mason short lessons); and how he doesn't encourage trying to teach a certain & complete lesson in a certain time frame, but to teach the child instead. He also has audios through his website, The Circe Institue.

Teaching from Rest: http://amongstlovelythings.com/shop/

 

Thanks, LivingHope.  I recently bought the ebook, read through it quickly, and am about to go back and re-read it slowly and use the journal to help me figure out how to incorporate the principles here in our school.  (I haven't listened to the audio yet).  My question here is partly prompted by the Circe ideas that have been percolating in my mind over the past month or so, as well as my continuing frustration with dd's math attitude.  I guess when I hear "don't teach a certain and complete lesson in a certain time frame" I start to worry, "But, but, but, she'll never get to where she needs to be if I don't!  She'll just keep dragging the chain until it's too late, because she doesn't care!" 

 

I should go listen to that interview!  I"m not feeling very well today, so it's a good opportunity to lie on the couch and plug in the earphones! :)

[Reefgazer]

This is exactly what works here.  Unless it's a problem with understanding the material, in which case, I take a different tactic.  But daydreaming and dawdling means it becomes her problem to deal with in her otherwise-free time.

I have two children that have a "beat-the-clock" mentality and totally go for this.  i have another child, however, that would fall so far behind it would be ridiculous. I do something similar with her, but not exactly the same.  Basically, we have a lesson and she has a specific amount of time to complete that subject.  Once her time is up, she puts that subject away and moves on to the next thing.  At the end of the school day (when *I'm* done), anything unfinished becomes her "homework" and she goes back to work on it.  The catch is that I'm totally available (or try to be) to them for help until about 3:00.  After that, they're most likely on their own because I have to get supper started, start clothes washing, etc... Sometimes she finishes it that day and sometimes she doesn't. If everything isn't complete by Friday afternoon, she has to get up at 6:00 on Saturday morning (when DH is normally up and moving around) to complete the rest of her schoolwork.  She works on it as long as she has to on Saturday and/or Sunday to get it completed.  Unless we have a swim meet or she needs to help with yard work, etc, she is allowed no screen time, no play time, no sleeping in, no relaxing, no nothing (except eating and bathroom breaks) until all school work is complete.  Really the difference is that I have an amount I expect to be completed each day/week and we shoot for that.  If she chooses to daydream her days away and get up early on Saturday to do schoolwork, that's her choice, but I want a realistic number of lessons completed each week.  When she's having trouble with a concept, I don't mind adjusting expectations. When she's being lazy or doesn't want to focus, that's another story.  It's amazing how fast those lessons get completed when brother and sisters are watching a show or outside playing and she is sitting in the schoolroom by herself.   ;)

 

ETA:  My DD is 12, so a bit older than yours, but I would definitely apply this to my DD8 if I needed to.

 

[LivingHope]

Thanks, LivingHope. I recently bought the ebook, read through it quickly, and am about to go back and re-read it slowly and use the journal to help me figure out how to incorporate the principles here in our school. (I haven't listened to the audio yet). My question here is partly prompted by the Circe ideas that have been percolating in my mind over the past month or so, as well as my continuing frustration with dd's math attitude. I guess when I hear "don't teach a certain and complete lesson in a certain time frame" I start to worry, "But, but, but, she'll never get to where she needs to be if I don't! She'll just keep dragging the chain until it's too late, because she doesn't care!"

 

I should go listen to that interview! I"m not feeling very well today, so it's a good opportunity to lie on the couch and plug in the earphones! :)

 

Piper, if you work on the habit of focused attention using short lessons, you may soon find that you have a child who is very well prepared for independent studies. Stay in the moment and try not to worry about the future. Children grow so much in such a short time. I have a dd16 who didn't read until she was nine, and now she is one of the most well read persons I personally know (her favorite author is Charles Dickens). She also does her school independently and will be enrolling in dual enrollment courses this fall. Who knew? I should not have spent my time worrying about her when she was little, but instead enjoying the homeschool ride one day at a time. Try a week experiment with short, focused lessons and see if you notice something different in your homeschool. I hope you enjoy your audio interviews and feel better soon.

[GrammarGirl]

Learning to complete tasks within a time limit is a much needed skill. Few jobs allow for open-ended deadlines. Having taught in high schools and a college, the greatest difficulty formerly homeschooled students had in my classes was finishing a quiz or test within the given time. It may seem harsh, but I would set a reasonable amount of time per assignment and give a consequence for failure to complete the.work.

[kiwik]

Learning to complete tasks within a time limit is a much needed skill. Few jobs allow for open-ended deadlines. Having taught in high schools and a college, the greatest difficulty formerly homeschooled students had in my classes was finishing a quiz or test within the given time. It may seem harsh, but I would set a reasonable amount of time per assignment and give a consequence for failure to complete the.work.

I can't see signitures but it does depend a lot on the age of the child. If she is 10 then the homework approach sounds good. If she is 6 shorter lessons sound good.

[Chris in VA]

You've probably tried this, but--

Can you sit beside her and work the page together conversationally? Sometimes I will encourage my little tutoring student this way--he is often charmingly silly and wiggly, so sitting right with him and focusing him with questions and praise helps a bit (it's writing that takes him a while, not math, but it still applies).

[Momof3littles]

SWB spoke about HSing the argumentative, distractable, poky, etc. child at a conference I recently attended.  She talked about figuring out a reasonable working rate.  Have them work on a typical page at the right level for the child, and see how many problems they can get done with you sitting right. there. at the table with them.  You don't say, "hurry up," but when they start staring off in space you prompt them to return their focus to what they are doing.

 

She also mentioned if you use a timer, to make sure the child can SEE the timer, otherwise you really aren't building the skill of managing time and pacing with an exercise.  That was a good tip, because I don't think everyone does that.

 

With my eldest, I will give him a reasonable amount of time to complete the work, and what isn't done must be completed after we are finished for the day (like homework would be).  I don't do this if I think he's genuinely struggling with a concept, but when I notice he's inserting his nose in what my other kids are doing, goofing off, staring off into space, whatever.  Miraculously, he can often get the work finished, or after one day of homework, he manages to pick up the pace.

 

edited to add that I would only do the above with slightly older kids, not the youngest HS students.  With a younger student you may just have to make sure you are right. there. redirecting their attention as necessary, or doing the questions orally as a previous poster suggested.

[Carrie12345]

I can't speak from experience yet, but we're going the "homework" route this year for my 11 and 12yos.  We're starting a very busy activity year this fall, and they're going to have to get serious in order to manage it and still have down time.

Otoh, I cut my 7yo a lot more slack.

[Piper]

Thanks again for the advice, everyone.  I feel a lot more at peace about how to approach math with dd now.  Love the hive wisdom! ;)

[Heathermomster]

I think you should take a white board, sit beside her, and solve the problems together.  Make it fun and compare answers.  You may discover that the math is either too slow or too fast.  You can discern that by working with her.

 

On new math skills, I do this with my DS so that he doesn't learn to solve a problem wrong and then have to unlearn it.  If I'm right there with him, I can make a quick correction.  Once DS has proven that he can do the work, I send him off to do more but still check on him periodically.

[NikiSC]

I highly recommend that you get the Teaching from Rest ebook/audio set and listen to Sarah's interview with Andrew Kern. He really speaks well about assessing your child with himself/herself and not with other children; how 15 minutes of focused attention is where it's at (think Charlotte Mason short lessons); and how he doesn't encourage trying to teach a certain & complete lesson in a certain time frame, but to teach the child instead. He also has audios through his website, The Circe Institue.

Teaching from Rest: http://amongstlovelythings.com/shop/

 

I haven't read the ebook yet.  She just started a series on Planning from Rest.  Good stuff!  She addresses this but *I* can't wrap my head around it!  The series is here:http://amongstlovelythings.com/planning/

[ScoutTN]

I do this, but only with things that are somewhat peripheral such as spelling (dd is a very good speller) or handwriting.

Spelling I am doing with her, handwriting not.

 

We also do it for some assigned reading and memory work review. Dd reads 15-20 minutes of science most every school day.

 

I do occasionally limit a math lesson when someone is frustrated and we need a break, but this is a lesson when I am actively teaching, not independent work.