Is this just our New Normal?

[8circles]

I've been reading this thread on my phone but unable to post.  I've wanted to say a lot but I can't remember what at this point.  Except this.

 

I am a 2nd amendment supporter but I do think a lot more could be done to control the gun violence in this country.  I don't own a gun (I hate them) although DH used to own a hunting shotgun and is former military.  But this story that I quoted below is just so outrageous to me, I'm actually shocked that nobody has commented on it yet.  I want gun-owners to respect that guns are powerful weapons that can kill & treat them appropriately but what this woman did is so over-the-top it's disgusting.  I don't care who is bleeding out - even a criminal intent on harming me, killing me even, deserves at least some acknowledgement that they are a human being whose life was just taken.  He was shot & bleeding out - I assume she felt he was no longer a threat or she wouldn't have been scrounging for a paper bag so her precious gun wouldn't get scratched.  Honestly, that's seriously messed-up.  She was defending herself - got that.  But what she did next really showed her character & I'm appalled that her behavior would be defended.  It isn't just base, it's worse.  I'm disgusted.

Lots of people would truly rather die or have their family be killed (or something really bad happen), then kill someone, even a bad person.  That is a completely valid and admirable viewpoint, and people that think that shouldn't have a gun. You don't want to provide the gun that shoots you.  But, I don't think that.  I see them as something that would help me defend myself and my family.  Period.  That is my only reason.  I do not think that is a base thing.  

 

I remember hearing about a court case where a woman defended herself with a gun.  Someone attacked her in the street and tried to drag her off to a second crime scene.  She shot the person, and he later died.  While waiting for the police/ambulance to arrive she took great care of her gun.  Even going so far as to find a paper bag in the trash and setting the gun on the bag when she set it down on the ground because she didn't want the gun scratched.  The other side of the court case tried to make a big to-do about it that she was a cold-blooded killer because a guy was bleeding out while she was getting that paper bag.  But, it was explained by the expert that to her, the gun was the reason she wasn't at that very moment being raped and murdered.  Therefore it was deserving of great respect.  That makes total and complete sense to me.  

 

[Colleen]

I completely reject with the idea that one needs a gun for self defense.

 

Good woman.

 

Call me paranoid, call me a prepper...whatever.

 

Well, okay, since you asked.  You are a paranoid prepper.  

 

Please don't make that choice for me.

 

(Y)ou are also making choices for me by having such a wide availability of guns. I feel less safe around them, you feel more.

 

Spot on.

 

I am simply not convinced that guns deter criminals.

 

Nor am I , and claims to that effect can't be substantiated.

 

I would for sure feel safer if I had to send my kids to school if teachers were allowed to conceal carry(specific training required) and if there were armed guards in place.

 

And, ironically, I'd feel far less safe. The very thought simultaneously depresses and maddens me.

 

I'm sorry to tell you the bad news, but gun control is not going to keep the guns out of the hands of people who want to kill.  It will keep the guns out of the people who want to protect their families.  Every single instance of a country implementing gun control has turned out with more violence and more people getting killed by bad people with guns.  Try looking that up.  Seriously.

 

Nonsense.  Stuff and nonsense.

[Mama Geek]

I've been reading this thread on my phone but unable to post.  I've wanted to say a lot but I can't remember what at this point.  Except this.

 

I am a 2nd amendment supporter but I do think a lot more could be done to control the gun violence in this country.  I don't own a gun (I hate them) although DH used to own a hunting shotgun and is former military.  But this story that I quoted below is just so outrageous to me, I'm actually shocked that nobody has commented on it yet.  I want gun-owners to respect that guns are powerful weapons that can kill & treat them appropriately but what this woman did is so over-the-top it's disgusting.  I don't care who is bleeding out - even a criminal intent on harming me, killing me even, deserves at least some acknowledgement that they are a human being whose life was just taken.  He was shot & bleeding out - I assume she felt he was no longer a threat or she wouldn't have been scrounging for a paper bag so her precious gun wouldn't get scratched.  Honestly, that's seriously messed-up.  She was defending herself - got that.  But what she did next really showed her character & I'm appalled that her behavior would be defended.  It isn't just base, it's worse.  I'm disgusted.

 

I am sure that most people unless they have been in the military and seen combat or are cops that have had to kill people would be pretty shaken up after shooting and killing someone because they were being attacked.  Even though several of us here fully support gun rights and own guns and also carry concealed, killing someone because they are harming us or our family is not something we want to have to do.  None of us know how we would act after shooting someone (unless you have had to do so), my guess is that I would start shaking and possibly start crying, but different people handle things differently.  Maybe cleaning a gun was a distraction from the fact that she sot someone even thought it was in self defense and maybe she did see it as the object that saved her life and therefore she wanted to take care of it.

[Caroline]

Ok so there were armed guards at columbine and virginia tech. I didn't know that but I do still feel like schools in general are very very vunerable. What can be done about that?

 

There have been shootings on military bases. Certainly we have armed guards on our military bases. We have had presidents shot with armed Secret Service members there. I don't know that our schools are more vulnerable than any other place large groups of people gather. 

[8circles]

I am sure that most people unless they have been in the military and seen combat or are cops that have had to kill people would be pretty shaken up after shooting and killing someone because they were being attacked. Even though several of us here fully support gun rights and own guns and also carry concealed, killing someone because they are harming us or our family is not something we want to have to do. None of us know how we would act after shooting someone (unless you have had to do so), my guess is that I would start shaking and possibly start crying, but different people handle things differently. Maybe cleaning a gun was a distraction from the fact that she sot someone even thought it was in self defense and maybe she did see it as the object that saved her life and therefore she wanted to take care of it.

Hogwash.

 

Any behavior can be excused with this reason. Doesn't make it right. Her disregard and disrespect for human life is just as disgusting as his.

 

And,ummm... Idolatry anyone? Her freaking gun was so precious to her? At first when I read through the story I was thinking she was being so careful about the gun to make sure everyone else was safe from, including when the police came, etc. Then I read that she didn't want it scratched? I can't say that i have no words because clearly I do but none of them seem adequate to convey my disgust.

[TCB]

I was asking up thread if anyone could link figures confirming that you are safer if you have a gun, and I've looked back to see if anyone has done so. I think I read through the replies carefully, but was unable to see any links or statistics etc. I may  have missed it so could someone point me in the right direction. Also, if that hasn't been answered yet, could someone tell me where I might find that data.

[MSNative]

I was asking up thread if anyone could link figures confirming that you are safer if you have a gun, and I've looked back to see if anyone has done so. I think I read through the replies carefully, but was unable to see any links or statistics etc. I may have missed it so could someone point me in the right direction. Also, if that hasn't been answered yet, could someone tell me where I might find that data.

I did a quick google search and tried to find some unbiased facts. So sad that it is so hard to find that. Ugh. Anyway, here is a quote from a CDC report. You could look up the full report for more info.

 

“Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns (i.e., incidents in which a gun was ‘used’ by the crime victim in the sense of attacking or threatening an offender) have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies,†the CDC study, entitled “Priorities For Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence,†states.

 

This site has interesting survey results. http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp This part seems most pertinent to your question.

 

* Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18]

 

* A 1993 nationwide survey of 4,977 households found that over the previous five years, at least 3.5% of households had members who had used a gun "for self-protection or for the protection of property at home, work, or elsewhere." Applied to the U.S. population, this amounts to 1,029,615 such incidents per year. This figure excludes all "military service, police work, or work as a security guard."[19]

 

* A 1994 survey conducted by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found that Americans use guns to frighten away intruders who are breaking into their homes about 498,000 times per year.[20]

 

* A 1982 survey of male felons in 11 state prisons dispersed across the U.S. found:[21]

 

• 34% had been "scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim"

• 40% had decided not to commit a crime because they "knew or believed that the victim was carrying a gun"

• 69% personally knew other criminals who had been "scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim"[22]

[TCB]

I did a quick google search and tried to find some unbiased facts. So sad that it is so hard to find that. Ugh. Anyway, here is a quote from a CDC report. You could look up the full report for more info.

 

“Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns (i.e., incidents in which a gun was ‘used’ by the crime victim in the sense of attacking or threatening an offender) have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies,†the CDC study, entitled “Priorities For Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence,†states.

 

This site has interesting survey results. http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp This part seems most pertinent to your question.

 

* Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18]

 

* A 1993 nationwide survey of 4,977 households found that over the previous five years, at least 3.5% of households had members who had used a gun "for self-protection or for the protection of property at home, work, or elsewhere." Applied to the U.S. population, this amounts to 1,029,615 such incidents per year. This figure excludes all "military service, police work, or work as a security guard."[19]

 

* A 1994 survey conducted by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found that Americans use guns to frighten away intruders who are breaking into their homes about 498,000 times per year.[20]

 

* A 1982 survey of male felons in 11 state prisons dispersed across the U.S. found:[21]

 

• 34% had been "scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim"

• 40% had decided not to commit a crime because they "knew or believed that the victim was carrying a gun"

• 69% personally knew other criminals who had been "scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim"[22]

 

Thanks for posting these. I haven't read through them completely yet. I need to look for the CDC study. The Just Facts site was interesting but I'm afraid I was able to tell which side of the argument they were coming from just from reading their 'facts', even before I read who they were. I really wish there was somewhere that would stick to the facts. I think the above site probably quoted some reputable figures, but their interpretation seems to take such leaps that it leaves big questions in my mind.

[busymama7]

There have been shootings on military bases. Certainly we have armed guards on our military bases. We have had presidents shot with armed Secret Service members there. I don't know that our schools are more vulnerable than any other place large groups of people gather.

But not with the frequency of school shootings. I guess I'd like to see numbers on it but it is my perception that mass shootings are happening more frequently in schools then elsewhere. And I can't help believe that knowing they are gun free zones seems like an open invitation to anyone wanting to cause mass harm :(

[ThisIsTheDay]

Ok so there were armed guards at columbine and virginia tech. I didn't know that but I do still feel like schools in general are very very vunerable. What can be done about that?

 

"Armed guard" is not accurate. There was an armed community resource officer at Columbine, but he left the campus for his lunch break.  (The whole of Columbine was so colossally mishandled by the Jefferson County Sheriff's Department, it's difficult to even get into that discussion.  I realize they did not have the experience in dealing with school shooters at that point, but their lack of any appropriate action,combined with their inability to communicate with other police agencies, resulted in additional and completely unnecessary loss of lives that day.)

 

Virginia Tech has its own police department, and to refer to police force as an "armed guard" on a campus as large at VT is misleading.

 

Nothing was being "guarded" at either of these locations.

[TCB]

But not with the frequency of school shootings. I guess I'd like to see numbers on it but it is my perception that mass shootings are happening more frequently in schools then elsewhere. And I can't help believe that knowing they are gun free zones seems like an open invitation to anyone wanting to cause mass harm :(

 

 

I wonder if notoriety is also an added attraction to shooting kids in schools. It's hard to imagine anywhere worse than a school and this might be what attracts them.

[In2why]

Hogwash.

 

Any behavior can be excused with this reason. Doesn't make it right. Her disregard and disrespect for human life is just as disgusting as his.

 

And,ummm... Idolatry anyone? Her freaking gun was so precious to her? At first when I read through the story I was thinking she was being so careful about the gun to make sure everyone else was safe from, including when the police came, etc. Then I read that she didn't want it scratched? I can't say that i have no words because clearly I do but none of them seem adequate to convey my disgust.

 

I wouldn't try to save his life and don't have the slightest problem admitting it.  I would probably have a hard time not kicking him in the head while waiting for the police to arrive.   Try to save the life of the monster that attacked me? Nope.  Adrenaline, shock, anger, fear are powerful emotions.  I don't know what I would do afterwards, probably try to find my center and stop crying and shaking.  But saving his life wouldn't even cross my mind.  

[TracyP]

I posted some statistics earlier because I thought they might be of interest. As I watch this conversation progress, I want to urge people to ignore statistics. They don't tell the whole story.

 

If somebody wants to suggest that DC would be safer if only more civilians had guns, I'd say they are off their rocker. OTOH, somebody in rural MN might be safer if they are trained to use a gun for self-defense. It is a difference in police response time, the type of training gun owners have, and the type of crime that is likely to happen. Statistics are never going to tell the full story, and they are not going to help us stop school shooters.

 

We get back to, what will help? You are allowed to have guns in America - that is not changing. I would like to see certain weapons banned, but the responses here show that is going to be difficult. I really like in2why's suggestion. So playing off that, I am going to email my representatives suggesting a law that all guns are accessible only to the owner. This would have to be done in good faith because home visits are something else that is not going to happen in the USA. If you do not properly store your gun(s), and an accident happens or a crime is committed with your weapon, you can be held criminally and civilly responsible. I see NO problem with this from a gun owner point of view. I would like to hear other thoughts. If anybody does see a flaw in this suggestion, could you let me know? PM is fine, if you don't want to post.

 

p.s. For those who think that contacting your representative is pointless, I don't think it is. I emailed my representatives over an issue last summer and received canned responses. But 3-4 months later, Al Franken sent an email back stating that he wanted me to know about the bill he was proposing to address my (and I'm sure I wasn't alone) issue. I think it can help because they listen to the loudest voices. You have to speak if you want to be heard.

 

p.p.s. Guess who is getting my vote this year? These people aren't as dumb as they seem sometimes. :tongue_smilie:

[8circles]

I wouldn't try to save his life and don't have the slightest problem admitting it.  I would probably have a hard time not kicking him in the head while waiting for the police to arrive.   Try to save the life of the monster that attacked me? Nope.  Adrenaline, shock, anger, fear are powerful emotions.  I don't know what I would do afterwards, probably try to find my center and stop crying and shaking.  But saving his life wouldn't even cross my mind.  

Who said anything about saving his life?  If the only options you see are trying to save his life & worrying about scratches on the God D### gun I don't really know what to say.  How about putting the dangerous weapon INSIDE the bag so it couldn't be picked-up by anyone else & then actually caring about the person dying.  Maybe a moment of silence with respect for the life lost to criminal behavior that is now permanently wasted.  Maybe a moment of reflection on the fact that you JUST KILLED SOMEONE, justified or not.  If you believe in prayer, how about a prayer for this human being's soul. Or is you aren't able to be so compassionate, how about a prayer for any past victims of this person, that they would find some comfort in his death.  I mean, seriously, are we so far gone that the gun is more important than any of those things?  IMO when you can't feel something about the loss of a human life, you have lost your own humanity.

[poppy]

"Armed guard" is not accurate. There was an armed community resource officer at Columbine, but he left the campus for his lunch break. (The whole of Columbine was so colossally mishandled by the Jefferson County Sheriff's Department, it's difficult to even get into that discussion. I realize they did not have the experience in dealing with school shooters at that point, but their lack of any appropriate action,combined with their inability to communicate with other police agencies, resulted in additional and completely unnecessary loss of lives that day.)

 

Virginia Tech has its own police department, and to refer to police force as an "armed guard" on a campus as large at VT is misleading.

 

Nothing was being "guarded" at either of these locations.

So. Schools are targeted because they are gun free. Times schools were attacked while the shooters knew there was likely to be armed resistance don't count !

 

Don't forget Gabby Giffords, Mt Hood shootings, that California sociopath from few weeks ago who just drive around shooting random people. ......oh and yes all the gang violence where everyone is presumed to be armed or the teeth. If we just had more guns we'd all be safer.

[In2why]

Who said anything about saving his life?  If the only options you see are trying to save his life & worrying about scratches on the God D### gun I don't really know what to say.  How about putting the dangerous weapon INSIDE the bag so it couldn't be picked-up by anyone else & then actually caring about the person dying.  Maybe a moment of silence with respect for the life lost to criminal behavior that is now permanently wasted.  Maybe a moment of reflection on the fact that you JUST KILLED SOMEONE, justified or not.  If you believe in prayer, how about a prayer for this human being's soul. Or is you aren't able to be so compassionate, how about a prayer for any past victims of this person, that they would find some comfort in his death.  I mean, seriously, are we so far gone that the gun is more important than any of those things?  IMO when you can't feel something about the loss of a human life, you have lost your own humanity.

 

I apologize, I thought when you wrote of bleeding out and respect of life that would mean trying to stop the bleeding.  

 

None of us have a clue what we would do after being attacked and shooting someone and how people act under extreme stress isn't an indication of their humanity.  Most people put on foot in front of the other and do the next right thing or fall apart completely.  In no way is that an indication of how they will feel 30 minutes, an hour, a day, or weeks later. 

 

When my father died (natural causes) his wife immediately went and did the dishes while waiting for the hospice nurse to come to the house.   It didn't mean that she was inhumane.  She was coping with the most extreme stress of her life by doing the next right thing.  Prayers and emotions came later when she didn't feel like she would lose her mind.  

 

You have already stated you hate guns, so I doubt you could understand and it makes complete sense the woman's actions seem inexplicable. 

[In2why]

I posted some statistics earlier because I thought they might be of interest. As I watch this conversation progress, I want to urge people to ignore statistics. They don't tell the whole story.

 

If somebody wants to suggest that DC would be safer if only more civilians had guns, I'd say they are off their rocker. OTOH, somebody in rural MN might be safer if they are trained to use a gun for self-defense. It is a difference in police response time, the type of training gun owners have, and the type of crime that is likely to happen. Statistics are never going to tell the full story, and they are not going to help us stop school shooters.

 

We get back to, what will help? You are allowed to have guns in America - that is not changing. I would like to see certain weapons banned, but the responses here show that is going to be difficult. I really like in2why's suggestion. So playing off that, I am going to email my representatives suggesting a law that all guns are accessible only to the owner. This would have to be done in good faith because home visits are something else that is not going to happen in the USA. If you do not properly store your gun(s), and an accident happens or a crime is committed with your weapon, you can be held criminally and civilly responsible. I see NO problem with this from a gun owner point of view. I would like to hear other thoughts. If anybody does see a flaw in this suggestion, could you let me know? PM is fine, if you don't want to post.

 

p.s. For those who think that contacting your representative is pointless, I don't think it is. I emailed my representatives over an issue last summer and received canned responses. But 3-4 months later, Al Franken sent an email back stating that he wanted me to know about the bill he was proposing to address my (and I'm sure I wasn't alone) issue. I think it can help because they listen to the loudest voices. You have to speak if you want to be heard.

 

p.p.s. Guess who is getting my vote this year? These people aren't as dumb as they seem sometimes. :tongue_smilie:

 

 

I think this is great Tracy and also would love to hear other suggestions for positive action.  I hate that we are told or feel like we have to just accept it and hope that we as people become part of the solution.  We have to keep talking with each other instead of too each other for a real change to happen.   I am so fearful, because after Newtown I really thought we as a nation would try to find some common ground. 

[In2why]

So. Schools are targeted because they are gun free. Times schools were attacked while the shooters knew there was likely to be armed resistance don't count !

 

Don't forget Gabby Giffords, Mt Hood shootings, that California sociopath from few weeks ago who just drive around shooting random people. ......oh and yes all the gang violence where everyone is presumed to be armed or the teeth. If we just had more guns we'd all be safer.

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-rejects-nras-guns-in-schools-claim/

 

Israel has an interesting gun policy and armed paramilitary guards are at entrance of every school.  They have been fighting terrorism and lived under Palestinian/Israel conflict for a very long time.  But they also have strong restrictions on private gun ownership.   

[poppy]

Israel also has universal conscription (men and women). I'm a whole lot more comfortable with gun ownership when required serious training is part if the package.

[ktgrok]

I thought I read that they said the woman was clearing the gun, not cleaning it. Clearing it is making sure there is no longer a bullet in the chamber, and it can no longer fire. That would make sense to me, in the situation. 

 

 

[ThisIsTheDay]

So. Schools are targeted because they are gun free. Times schools were attacked while the shooters knew there was likely to be armed resistance don't count !

 

Don't forget Gabby Giffords, Mt Hood shootings, that California sociopath from few weeks ago who just drive around shooting random people. ......oh and yes all the gang violence where everyone is presumed to be armed or the teeth. If we just had more guns we'd all be safer.

 

It seems you are caught up with arguing and wanting to prove your point with every post, but as you could easily see in my original response, I was commenting specifically to the statement, "Ok so there were armed guards at columbine and virginia tech."

 

All I said was that the statement wasn't accurate. There were not "armed guards" there.  You can't argue with that. There were not armed guards, period.

[Cammie]

Turns out the Oregon shooter was a religious fundamentalist who wanted to go out and kill sinners.  If he was a brown Muslim we would have bombed a country in retaliation by now.  But because he was a white Mormon the US will do.....

Nothing.

[ThisIsTheDay]

Turns out the Oregon shooter was a religious fundamentalist who wanted to go out and kill sinners.  If he was a brown Muslim we would have bombed a country in retaliation by now.  But because he was a white Mormon the US will do.....

Nothing.

 

 

Yes, exactly like how we bombed a country because of the Fort Hood shooter.

 

And exactly how we responded following the Boston Marathon bombing.

 

::eye roll::

 

.

 

[Cammie]

Yes, exactly like how we bombed a country because of the Fort Hood shooter.

 

And exactly how we responded following the Boston Marathon bombing.

 

::eye roll::

 

.

 

 

It's called hyperbole.  The use of exaggeration as a rhetorical device. Often used to evoke strong feelings or create a strong impression.

[Catwoman]

Who said anything about saving his life?  If the only options you see are trying to save his life & worrying about scratches on the God D### gun I don't really know what to say.  How about putting the dangerous weapon INSIDE the bag so it couldn't be picked-up by anyone else & then actually caring about the person dying.  Maybe a moment of silence with respect for the life lost to criminal behavior that is now permanently wasted.  Maybe a moment of reflection on the fact that you JUST KILLED SOMEONE, justified or not.  If you believe in prayer, how about a prayer for this human being's soul. Or is you aren't able to be so compassionate, how about a prayer for any past victims of this person, that they would find some comfort in his death.  I mean, seriously, are we so far gone that the gun is more important than any of those things?  IMO when you can't feel something about the loss of a human life, you have lost your own humanity.

I don't know anything about this news story other than what I've read in this thread, but I was thinking that the woman was probably in shock. There she was, going about her normal business, when some guy attacks her and she ends up having to shoot him in order to save her own life. I'm assuming she has never shot anyone else, and she has probably never been attacked before that incident, so it's hard to imagine that she wouldn't have been in shock and it's quite probable she was having trouble calming herself down. Maybe she just took care of the gun because it was all she could control at that moment, and she needed to do something "normal."

 

As for having a little moment of silence for her attacker, I can't even begin to imagine that she would even think to do something like that. This guy just attacked her. If anything, she was probably scared to death he would somehow get up and attack her again, even if he was just lying still on the ground.

 

I have said many times that I'm not in favor of being allowed to carry a gun, but I don't believe that the vast, vast majority of people would ever want to use their weapon to harm or kill anyone else. I'm sure that woman didn't want to be attacked or have to fear for her life. I'm sure she hadn't spent years waiting for her big chance to shoot someone. For all we know, she goes to church every day and lights a candle for the guy and prays for him every night.

 

Again, I don't know exactly what went on in the woman's mind right after she shot the guy, but I am willing to extend her some grace and assume she was in shock. I'm not willing to brand her as evil or heartless because she took care of her gun and did nothing to honor her attacker right after she was forced to shoot him in order to save her own life.

[Catwoman]

Turns out the Oregon shooter was a religious fundamentalist who wanted to go out and kill sinners. If he was a brown Muslim we would have bombed a country in retaliation by now. But because he was a white Mormon the US will do.....

Nothing.

:confused: :confused: :confused:

 

Should we have bombed Mormon neighborhoods in Utah or something?

 

I have no idea why his color is being mentioned. :confused:

 

I have a feeling I'm missing your point, so I hope you will explain what you mean.

[Cammie]

:confused: :confused: :confused:

 

Should we have bombed Mormon neighborhoods in Utah or something?

 

I have no idea why his color is being mentioned. :confused:

 

I have a feeling I'm missing your point, so I hope you will explain what you mean.

 

My point is that we, as a nation, define "terrorism" in a very specific way that focuses on one religion, one cultural group.

 

Personally, I feel that we, as a nation, are being terrorized by the gun fetishists.  But because they don't fit what we have defined as terrorists we never take any action.

[Catwoman]

My point is that we, as a nation, define "terrorism" in a very specific way that focuses on one religion, one cultural group.

 

Personally, I feel that we, as a nation, are being terrorized by the gun fetishists. But because they don't fit what we have defined as terrorists we never take any action.

OK, now I understand what you meant -- thank you for the explanation. :)

[8circles]

I don't know anything about this news story other than what I've read in this thread, but I was thinking that the woman was probably in shock. There she was, going about her normal business, when some guy attacks her and she ends up having to shoot him in order to save her own life. I'm assuming she has never shot anyone else, and she has probably never been attacked before that incident, so it's hard to imagine that she wouldn't have been in shock and it's quite probable she was having trouble calming herself down. Maybe she just took care of the gun because it was all she could control at that moment, and she needed to do something "normal."

 

As for having a little moment of silence for her attacker, I can't even begin to imagine that she would even think to do something like that. This guy just attacked her. If anything, she was probably scared to death he would somehow get up and attack her again, even if he was just lying still on the ground.

 

I have said many times that I'm not in favor of being allowed to carry a gun, but I don't believe that the vast, vast majority of people would ever want to use their weapon to harm or kill anyone else. I'm sure that woman didn't want to be attacked or have to fear for her life. I'm sure she hadn't spent years waiting for her big chance to shoot someone. For all we know, she goes to church every day and lights a candle for the guy and prays for him every night.

 

Again, I don't know exactly what went on in the woman's mind right after she shot the guy, but I am willing to extend her some grace and assume she was in shock. I'm not willing to brand her as evil or heartless because she took care of her gun and did nothing to honor her attacker right after she was forced to shoot him in order to save her own life.

I don't know the story either except for what was described here.  But it wasn't described as her being so in shock that she was just coping.  It was described as having so much respect for the gun that she needed to protect it from getting scratched.  As if that's a good thing.  As if this is what a responsible gun-owner does.  As if "see?  she has so much respect for the gun.  Isn't that great?  she cares so much for the gun."  Excuse me while I vomit.  I 

 

& yeah, I know people handle tragedy and stress differently.  I am not suggesting that the examples I gave of alternative things to do are required but just pointing out that it isn't protect your gun from scratches or try to save his life.  Goodness, crying or staring into space would make more sense than caring so much about the gun for the gun's sake.  But this is nothing like your parent dying of natural causes & then going to wash the dishes - maybe if you just KILLED your parent - even in self-defense - & then went to wash the dishes it would be somewhat similar.  But it would be equally disturbing.

 

Yes, I hate guns.  For me.  I've shot one & it was very uncomfortable in a "I can't handle this kind of power" way.  But I know many people who own guns & I have no issue with it in theory.  There are just too many realities that I can't willingly live with and I'm just so bothered that so many people are willing to.

[Catwoman]

I don't know the story either except for what was described here. But it wasn't described as her being so in shock that she was just coping. It was described as having so much respect for the gun that she needed to protect it from getting scratched. As if that's a good thing. As if this is what a responsible gun-owner does. As if "see? she has so much respect for the gun. Isn't that great? she cares so much for the gun." Excuse me while I vomit. I

 

& yeah, I know people handle tragedy and stress differently. I am not suggesting that the examples I gave of alternative things to do are required but just pointing out that it isn't protect your gun from scratches or try to save his life. Goodness, crying or staring into space would make more sense than caring so much about the gun for the gun's sake. But this is nothing like your parent dying of natural causes & then going to wash the dishes - maybe if you just KILLED your parent - even in self-defense - & then went to wash the dishes it would be somewhat similar. But it would be equally disturbing.

 

Yes, I hate guns. For me. I've shot one & it was very uncomfortable in a "I can't handle this kind of power" way. But I know many people who own guns & I have no issue with it in theory. There are just too many realities that I can't willingly live with and I'm just so bothered that so many people are willing to.

I was just wondering if she actually said she was doing it out of respect for the gun, or if it's something the media made up to glorify the whole situation.

 

I wonder if anyone has asked her about it. I'd be interested in knowing exactly how she explained it. I'd feel a lot differently if she'd said, "I had no idea what I was doing. It felt like a nightmare and I was sort of in a daze," than if she went into a big story about how she loves her gun and how she wanted to give it a nice polishing.

[Laurie4b]

I don't know anything about this news story other than what I've read in this thread, but I was thinking that the woman was probably in shock. There she was, going about her normal business, when some guy attacks her and she ends up having to shoot him in order to save her own life. I'm assuming she has never shot anyone else, and she has probably never been attacked before that incident, so it's hard to imagine that she wouldn't have been in shock and it's quite probable she was having trouble calming herself down. Maybe she just took care of the gun because it was all she could control at that moment, and she needed to do something "normal."

 

As for having a little moment of silence for her attacker, I can't even begin to imagine that she would even think to do something like that. This guy just attacked her. If anything, she was probably scared to death he would somehow get up and attack her again, even if he was just lying still on the ground.

 

I have said many times that I'm not in favor of being allowed to carry a gun, but I don't believe that the vast, vast majority of people would ever want to use their weapon to harm or kill anyone else. I'm sure that woman didn't want to be attacked or have to fear for her life. I'm sure she hadn't spent years waiting for her big chance to shoot someone. For all we know, she goes to church every day and lights a candle for the guy and prays for him every night.

 

Again, I don't know exactly what went on in the woman's mind right after she shot the guy, but I am willing to extend her some grace and assume she was in shock. I'm not willing to brand her as evil or heartless because she took care of her gun and did nothing to honor her attacker right after she was forced to shoot him in order to save her own life.

 

Totally agree. People cannot say what they would do in a traumatic situation unless they have actually been in the situation. People in emotional shock often react in ways they themselves wouldn't have predicted, and yes, some people do things that seem very odd to others. If you don't work in a field in which you see people on a regular basis who have been in traumatic situations, you don't have a reliable frame of reference as to what constitutes a "normal" range of reaction.

[swimmermom3]

I don't know anything about this news story other than what I've read in this thread, but I was thinking that the woman was probably in shock. There she was, going about her normal business, when some guy attacks her and she ends up having to shoot him in order to save her own life. I'm assuming she has never shot anyone else, and she has probably never been attacked before that incident, so it's hard to imagine that she wouldn't have been in shock and it's quite probable she was having trouble calming herself down. Maybe she just took care of the gun because it was all she could control at that moment, and she needed to do something "normal."

 

As for having a little moment of silence for her attacker, I can't even begin to imagine that she would even think to do something like that. This guy just attacked her. If anything, she was probably scared to death he would somehow get up and attack her again, even if he was just lying still on the ground.

 

I have said many times that I'm not in favor of being allowed to carry a gun, but I don't believe that the vast, vast majority of people would ever want to use their weapon to harm or kill anyone else. I'm sure that woman didn't want to be attacked or have to fear for her life. I'm sure she hadn't spent years waiting for her big chance to shoot someone. For all we know, she goes to church every day and lights a candle for the guy and prays for him every night.

 

Again, I don't know exactly what went on in the woman's mind right after she shot the guy, but I am willing to extend her some grace and assume she was in shock. I'm not willing to brand her as evil or heartless because she took care of her gun and did nothing to honor her attacker right after she was forced to shoot him in order to save her own life.

 

My thoughts exactly!

 

 

[Alte Veste Academy]

I find this rant truly bizarre and horrifically unfair and insensitive to the woman who was attacked and in mortal danger. IMO when you can't feel sympathy for and extend a little grace to a victim of a violent crime, you have lost your humanity. What do you know about what the victim felt about killing her assailant?

 

I am not a gun person, whatever that may mean. And I can't know for sure, of course, because I have never been attacked or killed anyone, but in a million, zillion years I cannot imagine feeling an iota of compassion for my attacker in this situation. In fact, I imagine that, besides shock, I would probably be just plain pissed off that he attacked me and put me in a position to choose between my life and his, with the heaviness of that weighing down on me every single day for the rest of my life. I would be pissed that he tried to take me from my kids and grateful that I was able to defend myself. No way on Earth would I engage in a "moment of silence with respect for the life lost to criminal behavior." I mean what?! Talk about blaming the victim. I picture imaginary you in a similar situation, with a twist. Maybe someone attacks and attempts to abduct your child, but you are able to crack them over the head with a pipe and get away, but the guy dies. I really could not fathom compassion being an emotion on your radar in the moments after the crime.

 

But that is neither here nor there, because chances are that was bad reporting.

[8circles]

I find this rant truly bizarre and horrifically unfair and insensitive to the woman who was attacked and in mortal danger. IMO when you can't feel sympathy for and extend a little grace to a victim of a violent crime, you have lost your humanity. What do you know about what the victim felt about killing her assailant?

 

I am not a gun person, whatever that may mean. And I can't know for sure, of course, because I have never been attacked or killed anyone, but in a million, zillion years I cannot imagine feeling an iota of compassion for my attacker in this situation. In fact, I imagine that, besides shock, I would probably be just plain pissed off that he attacked me and put me in a position to choose between my life and his, with the heaviness of that weighing down on me every single day for the rest of my life. I would be pissed that he tried to take me from my kids and grateful that I was able to defend myself. No way on Earth would I engage in a "moment of silence with respect for the life lost to criminal behavior." I mean what?! Talk about blaming the victim. I picture imaginary you in a similar situation, with a twist. Maybe someone attacks and attempts to abduct your child, but you are able to crack them over the head with a pipe and get away, but the guy dies. I really could not fathom compassion being an emotion on your radar in the moments after the crime.

 

But that is neither here nor there, because chances are that was bad reporting.

 

I'm not blaming the victim and have said that I understand shooting in self-defense.  I've also said that I am not saying any of my suggestions are required or expected, but that there are more options than protecting your gun from scratches or trying to save the man's life.  Feel free to come up with your own examples - I did in a subsequent post.  Nothing that I said indicated that I think the woman should feel any guilt over protecting herself.  She shouldn't.  But she just killed someone - who the hell cares if the gun gets scratched.  I have no understanding of how the story we were given is a good example of proper gun behavior.  None.

 

Apparently it isn't clear so I'll explain.  I don't know this story except for what was posted about it from someone who was pointing to this woman's behavior as a model of good gun ownership.  If that's what that poster was trying to show then IMO she not only failed miserably, she accomplished the complete opposite.  I don't know this woman nor do I know of her story.  The story described in this thread about this woman is horrific IMO & THAT STORY paints this woman in a very negative light.  If what that poster said about this woman is true, I stand by my opinion 100%.  Nobody should be using that woman's behavior as a model to follow or to illustrate responsible gun ownership.  & I'm not referring to her shooting someone in self-defense.

 

It is very much here & there because there are people who think the story of this woman protecting her gun from scratches is a model of good gun ownership.  If it was bad reporting then I'm relieved for that part, but still disgusted that people think the story is a positive one.  

[Alte Veste Academy]

I'm not blaming the victim and have said that I understand shooting in self-defense. I've also said that I am not saying any of my suggestions are required or expected, but that there are more options than protecting your gun from scratches or trying to save the man's life. Feel free to come up with your own examples - I did in a subsequent post. Nothing that I said indicated that I think the woman should feel any guilt over protecting herself. She shouldn't. But she just killed someone - who the hell cares if the gun gets scratched. I have no understanding of how the story we were given is a good example of proper gun behavior. None.

 

Apparently it isn't clear so I'll explain. I don't know this story except for what was posted about it from someone who was pointing to this woman's behavior as a model of good gun ownership. If that's what that poster was trying to show then IMO she not only failed miserably, she accomplished the complete opposite. I don't know this woman nor do I know of her story. The story described in this thread about this woman is horrific IMO & THAT STORY paints this woman in a very negative light. If what that poster said about this woman is true, I stand by my opinion 100%. Nobody should be using that woman's behavior as a model to follow or to illustrate responsible gun ownership. & I'm not referring to her shooting someone in self-defense.

 

It is very much here & there because there are people who think the story of this woman protecting her gun from scratches is a model of good gun ownership. If it was bad reporting then I'm relieved for that part, but still disgusted that people think the story is a positive one.

And I just disagree with all that, for a variety of reasons, never mind that it might not even be accurate. It doesn't bother me if it is. And again, I am not a gun lover, not a gun owner. I have pretty complex mixed feelings about guns and gun control in this country. But honestly, yeah, I might revere the instrument that just saved my life and let me continue being a mom to my kids and a wife to my husband.

 

Also, I have had the very disturbing experience of behaving bizarrely, aloof and detached, in a life or death emergency involving my DD when she was an infant. DH was handling it and I checked out, like a robot. Shock is unpredictable and even if this woman acted exactly as described in this story, I think no less of her.

 

As far as others holding her up as a model of gun ownership? Well, she respected her weapon, used it appropriately (as an innocent, law-abiding victim against an assailant breaking the law), treated it with respect, and preserved it as evidence. I can see all that. But then I don't have a giant pre-existing bias blocking an open mind.

[8circles]

But then I don't have a giant pre-existing bias blocking an open mind.

?? I read this as saying that I have an giant preexisting bias blocking an open mind. I do not. I'm sorry this conversation has come to personal attacks.

[Alte Veste Academy]

I don't own a gun (I hate them)

It wasn't a personal attack. In my opinion, stating that you "hate" guns shows a giant pre-existing bias against a woman showing reverence for her gun.

[8circles]

It wasn't a personal attack. In my opinion, stating that you "hate" guns shows a giant pre-existing bias against a woman showing reverence for her gun.

And I clarified what I meant in a subsequent post. I didn't mean what you are assuming here. My aversion to reverence for a material object after killing someone has nothing to do with my distaste for guns and everything to do with my respect for human life.

[Alte Veste Academy]

And I clarified what I meant in a subsequent post. I didn't mean what you are assuming here. My aversion to reverence for a material object after killing someone has nothing to do with my distaste for guns and everything to do with my respect for human life.

Well in my opinion, your clarification...

 

Yes, I hate guns.  For me.  I've shot one & it was very uncomfortable in a "I can't handle this kind of power" way.  But I know many people who own guns & I have no issue with it in theory.  There are just too many realities that I can't willingly live with and I'm just so bothered that so many people are willing to.

...sounds to me as if you are not open-minded on this issue, mostly due to your statement that you are "bothered that so many people are willing to" live with the realities/power of gun use and ownership. It is hard for me to keep an open mind when I have a visceral reaction to something, as it seems you did to shooting. There is a obviously a big difference between "in theory" and reality.

[8circles]

Well in my opinion, your clarification...

 

 

...sounds to me as if you are not open-minded on this issue, mostly due to your statement that you are "bothered that so many people are willing to" live with the realities/power of gun use and ownership. It is hard for me to keep an open mind when I have a visceral reaction to something, as it seems you did to shooting. There is a obviously a big difference between "in theory" and reality.

I'm not clear on what I'm not open-minded about. I live in a world of guns. They are everywhere - people conceal carry around me all the time. The sight of guns in public doesn't bother me in the least. I don't want to take guns away from people I just don't want to use one ever again. But guns should not be revered, especially in the moments following killing someone. If you see that as not being open minded then I guess we'll add it to the list of things we disagree on.

[Alte Veste Academy]

I'm not clear on what I'm not open-minded about. I live in a world of guns. They are everywhere - people conceal carry around me all the time. The sight of guns in public doesn't bother me in the least. I don't want to take guns away from people I just don't want to use one ever again. But guns should not be revered, especially in the moments following killing someone. If you see that as not being open minded then I guess we'll add it to the list of things we disagree on.

LOL You have a list of things we disagree on? I don't know whether to he honored or totally creeped out. I couldn't tell you a single opinion you hold on anything outside of this thread. But I have a short attention span, mainly hang on the education boards, and typically come here to escape.

[8circles]

LOL You have a list of things we disagree on? I don't know whether to he honored or totally creeped out. I couldn't tell you a single opinion you hold on anything outside of this thread. But I have a short attention span, mainly hang on the education boards, and typically come here to escape.

Umm, no. Its a figure of speech. In the his thread you have disagreed with everything I've said. I'm not sure why you are reacting to me in such a nasty way.

[Alte Veste Academy]

Umm, no. Its a figure of speech. In the his thread you have disagreed with everything I've said. I'm not sure why you are reacting to me in such a nasty way.

I am sorry you feel that way. (I could point out that I have not actually disagreed with everything you have said, but you would probably see that as disagreeable. LOL) This is a thread about a heated topic. You expressed some extremely angry, heated feelings and sentiments that I thought were unfair, so I responded to that. We disagree, but I certainly don't have hard feelings. Really.

 

And seriously, my memory being what it is, I hardly ever remember who I disagreed with once upon a time in a thread. I can't be the only one here that is true of...I hope... :lol:

[8circles]

I am sorry you feel that way. (I could point out that I have not actually disagreed with everything you have said, but you would probably see that as disagreeable. LOL) This is a thread about a heated topic. You expressed some extremely angry, heated feelings and sentiments that I thought were unfair, so I responded to that. We disagree, but I certainly don't have hard feelings. Really.

 

And seriously, my memory being what it is, I hardly ever remember who I disagreed with once upon a time in a thread. I can't be the only one here that is true of...I hope... :lol:

I don't have any hard feelings about you disagreeing with me about any or all of my comments here but you've called me out as not open minded and now creepy in my attempt to agree to disagree.

 

Whatever. I'm up too late.

[Alte Veste Academy]

I don't have any hard feelings about you disagreeing with me about any or all of my comments here but you've called me out as not open minded and now creepy in my attempt to agree to disagree.

 

Whatever. I'm up too late.

I was speaking only about this one aspect of this one issue. I have no reason to think that you are not open minded in general, and that is not what I meant at all. Gosh, I don't think anyone is universally open minded. I know I am not. I said as much in an earlier post, that I find it hard to be open minded about things I have a visceral reaction to.

 

The creepy thing was a joke, although I obviously misunderstood your post. I am up too late too, taking first shift in monitoring a sick kitty.

[Mama Geek]

NM 

 

[poppy]

It seems you are caught up with arguing and wanting to prove your point with every post, but as you could easily see in my original response, I was commenting specifically to the statement, "Ok so there were armed guards at columbine and virginia tech."

 

All I said was that the statement wasn't accurate. There were not "armed guards" there. You can't argue with that. There were not armed guards, period.

No, there were not armed guards. There are never 'armed guards' at schools, if your sole concern is use of that term. They had an armed school resource officer and an armed police force, respectively.

 

The argument was that killers chose schools because they know the places are 'gun free'. Those two places were not gun free. Whether or not the guy happened to be there is irrelevant to this argument; in both cases the heavily armed killers knew they of the presence of security forces before attacking.

[ThisIsTheDay]

No, there were not armed guards. There are never 'armed guards' at schools, if your sole concern is use of that term. They had an armed school resource officer and an armed police force, respectively.

 

The argument was that killers chose schools because they know the places are 'gun free'. Those two places were not gun free. Whether or not the guy happened to be there is irrelevant to this argument; in both cases the heavily armed killers knew they of the presence of security forces before attacking.

 

My "sole concern" was that someone else (not you) stated there were armed guards.  There were not.

[poppy]

I don't think anyone imagined there were literal armed guards like the President has standing sentry at those schools.

[In2why]

?? I read this as saying that I have an giant preexisting bias blocking an open mind. I do not. I'm sorry this conversation has come to personal attacks.

 

 

I am sorry you feel personally attacked.  I am also flabbergasted.  You used words like base, disgusting, inhumane and many more to describe how you felt about those of us giving a different point of view, and instead of being met with the same type of words and certainty that our position was the morally correct one, we explained not using inflammatory language yet you feel attacked by those explanations?   That seems unfair.