"Probably Most People at Microsoft are Aspie"

[Jean in Newcastle]

This was what the neuro-psych said today.  Now I realize that he doesn't mean that literally so much as to point out that statistically there is probably a higher percentage of aspies in that field.  (And yes, I know that technically it is now ASD but aspie narrows the field more to what I'm speaking about.)  So here's my latest question:  if these people are (presumably) well educated, able to navigate at least the world of work socially and many have families as well, what is the point of singling them out as having a diagnosis of some kind?  And where does personality start and end and a diagnosis begin?  

[OneStepAtATime]

Not sure the world has worked out those questions to anyone's satisfaction.   :)

 

I think, though, that it is similar to getting a diagnosis of dyslexia.  If I had already known how the kids learn best, then the diagnosis probably wouldn't have been needed.  I could have taught them reading/writing/spelling, etc. using Barton and not worried about the diagnosis for that particular issue.   I could have homeschooled from the beginning.  It still would have helped to have more detailed answers on other strengths and weaknesses just to have a better idea of what to target and how, but the diagnosis probably wasn't that necessary otherwise.  Even if I had known what the issues were, though, it probably would have helped to get confirmation so that DH would be more understanding of our need to do things a bit differently in educating the kids.

 

But I think another part of getting a diagnosis, especially if someone is on the spectrum, is understanding the depth and severity of an issue and if there are other underlying problems that might be causing difficulties as well.  A diagnosis helps sort out all the details.  Whether that info is extremely helpful or not really probably depends on what those details are and how they apply to your specific child and circumstance.  For some it may not make much difference one way or another.  For someone else it could be a huge stepping stone.  But there really may not be a way to know ahead of time which category you fall into.  I would honeslty rather have concrete answers than strong suspicions and a lot of second guessing on whether I am doing what is best for my child.  Does that make sense?  I may not be making sense.  Sorry.  Had a headache and chills all day.

[Jean in Newcastle]

You make perfect sense, OneStep.  I hope you feel better soon.  

[OneStepAtATime]

You make perfect sense, OneStep.  I hope you feel better soon.  

Thanks Jean.  I'm sure I will be fine.  Just feeling a bit weird.  :)  How are you doing?

[Jean in Newcastle]

Thanks Jean.  I'm sure I will be fine.  Just feeling a bit weird.   :)  How are you doing?

I'm battling some kind of virus that ds introduced to our house.  But other than that, ok.  

[OneStepAtATime]

I'm battling some kind of virus that ds introduced to our house.  But other than that, ok.  

Ugh!  Honey I am so praying that you can get to a point where there are no health issues whatsoever.  Where you wake up every day singing songs and dancing around the living room because you just feel so darn good.   :grouphug:

[katilac]

Well, I disagree pretty strongly with his statement, even if he was not being literal. Having some Aspie traits is not the same as having an Aspie dx. I mean, I keep my husband's work shirts color coded, but I don't actually have OCD, y'know?  

 

I don't think the premise your question arises from is true, so I can't answer it.  

 

Edited because I saw your other post, and I think the doctor was just making a clumsy effort to say a dx is not a disaster - and he's right about that, of course. I do think that certain fields hold more likelihood of success for people with certain traits, but that holds true for everything, I think. I see where he might have been going with it, but it was an awkward example that kind of dismisses the struggles, imo. 

 

 

[Ravin]

I think the way the new DSM categorized things makes sense. One may have traits/symptoms/quirks or what have you, and be on the range of normal, functioning people, through lack of severity or an ability to compensate. It's when these things interfere with everyday life that they become a disorder. And in children, the ability to learn is a central part of "everyday life."

 

If you're working at Microsoft, you are probably functioning at a high enough level that you don't need a diagnosis, whether it would fit or not. For a kid, it can make for a path of learning how to compensate and cope hopefully less rocky.

[PeterPan]

I don't know the stats on Microsoft, but I've been told something mathematically similar about MIT (that it has the largest population of aspies in the country).  I don't think it's meant as a consolation.  It's a reality check that there's good and bad to it and that the very thing that messes you up in some circles makes you lauded in others.  Point is to find who you are and get in a stream where you're going to be lauded, not sit around getting lambasted for being what you aren't.

 

The point is also that it's not a death sentence for everyone, that not everyone with it is non-functional.  I also think it's an encouragement to a no-excuses kind of life.  I was reading recently (for an unrelated reason) that spouses found that when their significant other got their formal aspie diagnosis it inadvertently sometimes became a *crutch* or an excuse to retreat even farther into themselves, sort of screwing with their psychology.  (I can't help it, that's what I am, kind of thing I guess.)  Just saying what I saw as a pattern of comments in a very long thread.  

 

I'd frame your comments to him in a very positive light and not make this about what he isn't.  But your psych probably already said that.

[PeterPan]

Well, I disagree pretty strongly with his statement, even if he was not being literal. 

Of course it couldn't be precisely true, because then things at Microsoft would be done RIGHT.  Oh, you mean it would be Apple.   :lol:   (no, no one at Apple was ever known for compulsively, perfectionistically sticking to details...)

[IsabelC]

It has been said that nowadays almost every kid is either gifted or disabled, because parents feel a need for their child to be a special snowflake. (Have you heard any elders in your family or community point out that back in the 'good old days', kids were just stupid, weird, or naughty, not dyslexic, autistic or ADHD?) However, this POV not only invalidates the harm suffered by so many kids who, undiagnosed, were punished for their differences, but it also doesn't recognize that, for many people, getting a dx isn't to make us feel special, but rather to explain what we have already noticed and/or provide a focus for potential intervention. Even if no intervention is possible, diagnosis can still provide a great sense of relief (eg 'Wow - so I wasn't imagining all of this', or 'Ah... so my difficulties in relating to others aren't because I am a bad person'). Of course, a diagnostic label might mean many things to many people, and I'm certainly not going to try to speak for all aspies! 

[geodob]

You wrote: So here's my latest question:  if these people are (presumably) well educated, able to navigate at least the world of work socially and many have families as well, what is the point of singling them out as having a diagnosis of some kind?  And where does personality start and end and a diagnosis begin?  

Where I think that the point that you're making, is can these people be defined as having a 'Learning Disability'?

As surely it is rather a 'Learning Difference'?

 

A Learning Difference becomes a Disability, when one isn't allowed and helped to learn in their own way.

If one relies on 'Spell Check' and uses 'Text to Speech' and 'Speech to Text' software?

Can this reliance really be defined as Disability?

Or just as a way of reading and writing? 

 

[Crimson Wife]

I live near Silicon Valley and a lot of the people I know work in the tech industry. While many would fit the "broad autistic phenotype" and some probably do have NVLD or mild Asperger's, there is a big difference between BAP and full-blown Asperger's/HFA in terms of functioning level.

 

DS probably fits into the BAP category. I had him evaluated for Asperger's after his little sister's diagnosis because there were enough "red flags" to warrant an eval. The pediatric neurologist said she totally understood why we had the eval, but she felt strongly that he had certain characteristics that would rule out a diagnosis of Asperger's. Her official diagnosis was ADHD + anxiety + giftedness. I don't have too many worries about his ability to live independently when he grows up, attend college, get and hold down a job, etc. He probably will go into some sort of STEM field as he loves everything STEM.

 

Youngest DD has an official diagnosis of HFA rather than Asperger's because of her speech delay, but the developmental pediatrician said that when she's older she is likely to function like someone with Asperger's. She has a lot of strengths and everyone who works with her has been optimistic about her long-term prognosis with continued therapy. Temple Grandin gives me hope for what DD could become as an adult. But as successful as Dr. Grandin has become, she still faces a lot more challenges than the stereotypical mildly awkward tech worker.

[Dmmetler]

FWIW, in DH's software engineering division, there are a lot of quirky folks-but only one who is really "out there" to the point that it seems like he'd probably qualify for some form of diagnosis. Basically, he's a 40 yr old who acts like a not very socially astute 12 yr old. So, he's not allowed around customers and, while he's probably the most prolific programmer and is extremely good at it, will always be a fairly junior programmer because he needs someone guiding and directing him-he can't function as a software lead or as an engineer. His current manager is a mom of four, and seems to do quite well with him-and was largely promoted for that purpose (she oversees him and usually a couple of people right out of college who end up moving onto other people's teams as soon as they're up to speed).

 

The rest...lots of introverts, lots of smart guys (and girls) who would rather go to the dentist for a root canal than a cocktail party, but they can all function as adults and do what needs to be done.

[8filltheheart]

Jean, I have avoided this forum for quite a while bc I am not an upbeat poster who a has happy ending POV. So, it you want a positive upbeat reply, please do not read on.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I just read your other thread about the recent diagnosis. I agree with katilac. Comments like the one your neuropsy made strongly annoy me. People make comments like that all the time. In my mind it does no one any favors bc if being an Aspie was simply having quirky traits, it would not be disabling. Unfortunately, it can be. Can Aspies have successful careers? Obviously some do. But for every Aspie that is a strong success, there are large numbers struggling to find ways to be productive and fit into society. Statistics do no bear out what was said. There are plenty of stats showing incredibly high percentages of Aspies are unemployed or underemployed. Here are just a couple of fact sheets that discusses it:

http://dps.missouri.edu/Autism/AutismFactSheet2011.pdf

http://autismnow.org/on-the-job/employment-research-and-reports/

 

Our ds had a similar diagnosis as yours at a similar age. He has incredibly low processing speeds (the first time he was tested his audio and visual processing speeds were in the 1st and 3rd percentile. The second time they were 2nd and 18th percentiles.). His IQ results are difficult to asses bc of the huge variances, but his IQ is in the very high range. He also suffers from severe anxiety, cannot assess situations well, does not connect the big picture without it being explicitly defined (do abc and expect d to be done, he will stop at c bc you didn't state to do d).

 

Our ds is severely underemployed. He has almost 60 college credits with all As and 1 B. He works part-time at Goodwill.

 

My biggest regret was thinking exactly like what your psy said to you. Our ds is extremely intelligent. But intelligence isn't enough, especially for employment. I wish we had focused on skills vs. academics. I have lots of regrets. But at 22 our ds is still struggling a lot with who he is and how to be an adult. He is starting to develop some skills that my other kids had mastered at 16. Learning adult skills takes training and teaching......and his assuming the responsibility to accept them. Often, he is his own worst enemy and takes 10 steps back for 1 step froward.

 

Your state dept of Rehabilitative Services may be a huge resource once he turns 18. They have been a lifesaver for us. They helped him get his job, provided a job coach, and are very encouraging. Ds starts drivers ed with a trained disability teacher the end of June.

[Crimson Wife]

I am hopeful that the stats for those with Asperger's/HFA will improve for the next generation because early intervention services are more widely available now than they were a decade or two ago. If all the 20somethings who are struggling now had been able to receive the kind of intensive treatment from toddlerhood on that my little one is fortunate enough to be receiving, I'd like to think that they would be in a better place now. At least I hope that all the money and effort that has been spent on DD's treatment will pay off in the long run with a better adult outcome. We obviously won't know that for another 15+ years.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I am reading and benefiting from all replies.  I'm not contributing anything new to this thread because I'm still digesting. . . pretty much everything.  But it helps to get all the perspectives.  

[OneStepAtATime]

I am reading and benefiting from all replies.  I'm not contributing anything new to this thread because I'm still digesting. . . pretty much everything.  But it helps to get all the perspectives.  

:grouphug:

[Jean in Newcastle]

:grouphug:

Thanks for the hugs.  This whole "ASD" diagnosis thing seems slippery to me and I have a degree (and experience) in special ed.  Yet, I have said for a long time that ds is "aspie-ish".  I'm just not clear where you go from "aspie-ish" to full blown dx of ASD.  I also feel like if we separated out and dealt with ADD and anxiety issues that some of the Aspie-ish things would disappear.  But perhaps they can't be separated out?  See - it's all as slippery as a fish!  

[8filltheheart]

Thanks for the hugs.  This whole "ASD" diagnosis thing seems slippery to me and I have a degree (and experience) in special ed.  Yet, I have said for a long time that ds is "aspie-ish".  I'm just not clear where you go from "aspie-ish" to full blown dx of ASD.  I also feel like if we separated out and dealt with ADD and anxiety issues that some of the Aspie-ish things would disappear.  But perhaps they can't be separated out?  See - it's all as slippery as a fish!  

 

If he was only suffering from ADD and anxiety, then you  wouldn't have a diagnosis of Aspergers.  (Assuming that your clinician is good.) Those are simply frequent co-morbid issues that many Aspies have.

http://www.autism-help.org/comorbid-disorders-autistic-spectrum.htm

[Crimson Wife]

Michelle Garcia Winner has a lot of good materials that you might find helpful. I am hoping to attend one of her trainings in December on the "Superflex" and "Incredible, Flexible You" programs. https://www.socialthinking.com/

[Tokyomarie]

Thanks for the hugs.  This whole "ASD" diagnosis thing seems slippery to me and I have a degree (and experience) in special ed.  Yet, I have said for a long time that ds is "aspie-ish".  I'm just not clear where you go from "aspie-ish" to full blown dx of ASD.  I also feel like if we separated out and dealt with ADD and anxiety issues that some of the Aspie-ish things would disappear.  But perhaps they can't be separated out?  See - it's all as slippery as a fish!

I think until science clarifies all the genetic, structural, and neuro-bio-chemical underpinnings of these neurodevelopmental disorders that we can't truly begin to say where one ends and another picks up. Until we can explain with confidence why some children with ADHD also have a reading disorder but do not have an ASD diagnosis and while others with an ADHD diagnosis also get a diagnosis of ASD, it is just impossible to answer the question.

 

I am so amazed at what we now know in 2014 compared to what we knew in 1997 when I first became immersed in the world of neurodevelopmental disorders- and 1997 wasn't exactly the dark ages. Today's 20-something adults were preschool and elementary age back then. Options for targeted therapies, medical interventions, and education just did not exist to the degree that they do today. Today's young children, I believe, will have a much brighter future because of the advances in our knowledge and treatment options.

 

Jean, I'm inclined to think that addressing the anxiety and ADD will lessen some of the manifestations of ASD and help your son be more emotionally and cognitively available for learning social and academic skills. It's hard to know until you start some therapies and see change over time. Anxiety, however, really affects working memory and attention so reducing anxiety will allow you to see other issues more clearly.

[IsabelC]

nm

[PeterPan]

Jean, have you seen the subtype survey the Autism Research Institute is doing?  http://www.autism.com  If you fill this out, not only do they add your info to their body of research, but they will send you back results on where your info seems to place the dc as far as subtype.  It might answer some of your questions about why things seem to overlap, etc.  I think their research is turning up as many as 12 subtypes of spectrum, which is why it seems so vague to you right now.  

[8filltheheart]

,

[PeterPan]

Yeah I don't know how quickly they kick back info.  I just found it fascinating that they were exploring the issue that seems to bug a lot of thinking people, that there's so much variation.  I read a number 40,000, meaning they've got quite a bit of data.  They have an online version of the form. If we ever get official diagnoses of spectrum, I'd do it in a heartbeat just because I'm intensely curious.  I think it would also give you fascinating ways to fine-tune your approach.