Pros and cons of future science major doing lower-level science and core classes as dual enrollment?

[Atilla the Mom]

<< I'm having a hard time believing this statistic also. You are implying that BA/BS degrees routinely ("universally") required only 96 credits. Can you provide any evidence for this claim? I bet that for most colleges it was at least 120 credits hours, pretty much same as today.  It was actually more, not less. Here is a detailed analysis of engineering education. http://asee-gsw.tula...st-40-years.pdf  In the early 1970’s a typical engineering program required a minimum semester credit hours (SCH)of course work ranging between 134-140.....Starting in early 1990s engineering programs became under increasing pressure by external forces to reduce the number of hours required for a degree >>

 

 

I went to Bryn Mawr College in Pennsylvania and was a bio major. The courses averaged 4 credits apiece  - not 3 credits, my error - and nonscience majors usually had around 120-130 credits at graduation.  The intro science courses were 5 credits because they required both labs and oral tutorials with attendance taken each time.  Skip more than one tutorial/class/lab in a row, and you had an appointment with your Dean of Students.  (Once I quit attending philosophy because I had a philosophical disagreement with my prof, and was called in by the Dean to explain myself.)  Incidentally, Freshman Composition in those days included a weekly, 30 minute, one-on-one, with your English prof, who went over the first draft of your scandalously critiqued essay from the preceding week, explained in excessive detail what you did wrong, and handed the thing back to you in a plastic bag, dripping red ink and oozing ichor, so you could to revise and resubmit it the next Monday, along with your first draft of that week's essay. I tested out of my language requirement, took AP Am Hist in high school, and took Calculus I, Stats, and Biology for Premedical Students at George Washington University in Washington DC over two summers when I was in high school, so my schedule was lighter.  I NEVER took more than 4 courses at any one time in college, or more than two courses at any one time in Medical School. 

 

I suspect that what happened to the engineering schools, was that when, "starting in early 1990s engineering programs became under increasing pressure by external forces to reduce the number of hours required for a degree," they simply cut the number of credits per course and renamed and shuffled them.  I think they then later compressed the coursework rather than actually cutting anything out.  That may have happened to programs across the board, because certainly I was surprised to find that the new normal was 5 courses, not 4, and that they offered only 3 credits per course despite covering a prior year's worth of info in a semester (with respect to the science courses) when my eldest went to college.

 

[Arcadia]

Sorry for going off-topic.

.Few kids will coming through with any Chinese. Even a single year of Chinese could potentially be impressive to a perspective school since so much of our industry here in the States is tied to China nowadays.

ETA: nevermind :) I'm where there is plenty of asians and saw in your later post your area might have much less.

[Trilliums]

Thanks for this note; at present she is actually thinking of biomedical science rather than engineering, and looking at the degree plan for that, it seems that it would work out. A good thought, though, since you never know what she might decide in the future. In any case, I have been encouraged on this thread not to expect her to accelerate too much once she is in college, but rather use the time she has "bought" to do advanced courses, research, co-op, etc.

 

Oh my....I read the OP several times before posting and EACH time I read it as biomedical engineering.  :blushing: :blushing: :blushing:

[nerdybird]

I am honestly wondering how you come to your opinion that few kids would be coming through with any Chinese. (ETA: maybe you meant few compared to all the college applicants from US)  Dual immersion Chinese schools (public schools) here start at kindergarten.

 

In California, 2,403 took AP Chinese, 74.6% scoring 5

5,684 took the AP Chinese exam in the states with 70% scoring 5.

 

Add on the overseas Chinese applying to US universities and I am guessing that you might need to be a non-native scoring 3 or higher on AP Chinese to impress. My family is Chinese and local colleges would have the unofficial expectations of high scores for AP Chinese if my boys take the exam.  The number of people taking the SAT Foreign Language exams are lower and SAT Chinese has the highest mean score.

 

 

I am located in the Midwest, where Chinese is not widely taught nor tested for at the secondary level. My initial thoughts are that yes, Chinese would be something novel if you were looking to catch the attention of an admissions official. Perhaps it is not so much about scores as it is about exposure to me. I am considering switching DS1 to Chinese or Japanese in a couple of years. He is starting to get bored with Spanish and isn't visually oriented enough for Latin, imho.

 

Copying from a thread that I started on AP exams results for all subjects. UC does require a score of 3 or higher. Since I'm in California that's where I check.  The majority of the students taking AP Chinese would have satisfy that criteria.

"Chinese -          70.1% score 5, 94.6% score 3 or higher

French -            14.2% score 5, 73.3 score 3 or higher

German -          18.9% score 5, 74.1% score 3 or higher

Italian -              13.6% score 5, 68% score 3 or higher

Japanese -        38.2% score 5, 71.9% score 3 or higher

Latin -               12.9% score 5, 58.5% score 3 or higher

Spanish -           24.5% score 5, 71.8% score 3 or higher

 

 

What do the percentages mean though? Let's say you have 100 students sitting for the Chinese exam and 74 of them score a 5. ~20 score a 3 or 4. Roughly 6 would fail with a 1 or 2.

 

Compare those 100 to the 1,000 taking the Spanish exam. There we have 718 scoring a 3 or higher, with roughly 250 scoring a 5.

 

Let's take 2 groups of bright students with a 4.0 GPAs who scored 4 or 5 on all APs and tested within the top 10-20% on the ACTs and/or SATs. If it really comes down to splitting hairs to decide who gets chosen to get into a particular school or gets a scholarship offer, which  pool stands out ever so slightly? The 1-2 students who took Chinese or the 10-20 who took Spanish?

 

That's my line of reasoning, fwiw.

 

 

Oh my....I read the OP several times before posting and EACH time I read it as biomedical engineering.  :blushing: :blushing: :blushing:

 

 

Don't feel bad; I did too. Now I remember why I wear reading glasses, lol

[Matryoshka]

 

What do the percentages mean though? Let's say you have 100 students sitting for the Chinese exam and 74 of them score a 5. ~20 score a 3 or 4. Roughly 6 would fail with a 1 or 2.

 

Compare those 100 to the 1,000 taking the Spanish exam. There we have 718 scoring a 3 or higher, with roughly 250 scoring a 5.

 

Let's take 2 groups of bright students with a 4.0 GPAs who scored 4 or 5 on all APs and tested within the top 10-20% on the ACTs and/or SATs. If it really comes down to splitting hairs to decide who gets chosen to get into a particular school or gets a scholarship offer, which  pool stands out ever so slightly? The 1-2 students who took Chinese or the 10-20 who took Spanish?

 

That's my line of reasoning, fwiw.

 

 

The kids scoring so high on AP Chinese are not (or rarely) European-Americans.  They're first generation Chinese, immigrants themselves or sometimes second generation.  I could hit three Chinese schools with a rock here.  Big ones.  With immersion at home.  That's why the scores are so high.

 

 

[nerdybird]

The kids scoring so high on AP Chinese are not (or rarely) European-Americans.  They're first generation Chinese, immigrants themselves or sometimes second generation.  I could hit three Chinese schools with a rock here.  Big ones.  With immersion at home.  That's why the scores are so high.

 

ITA. I suspect this is the case.

 

Non-Chinese or Non-Chinese American students with Chinese on their transcripts woulds stand out by this measure. Especially if they sat for an AP exam and were able to pass it or score in the 4-5 range.

 

/end thread derail/

[Bristayl]

Oh my....I read the OP several times before posting and EACH time I read it as biomedical engineering.  :blushing: :blushing: :blushing:

 

Don't feel bad; I did too. Now I remember why I wear reading glasses, lol

 

 

That's all right! Engineering may be on my horizon, since I have a younger son that shows a bent for engineering/computer science.

[Arcadia]

ITA. I suspect this is the case.

 

Non-Chinese or Non-Chinese American students with Chinese on their transcripts woulds stand out by this measure. Especially if they sat for an AP exam and were able to pass it or score in the 4-5 range.

 

/end thread derail/

 

I was looking at it from the perspective of satisfying UC foreign language requirements rather than standing out for college applications :lol: I don't think getting a good grade for AP German as a non-German would help my kids stand out either if they want to aim for UCB. There are too many factors at work when it comes to college applications.

/end thread derail/ 

[Atilla the Mom]

Getting back to your original question, I gather that you want your daughter to engage in research as early as possible.  You do live in the Dallas Ft Worth area, which is a mecca.  I would particularly suggest you look at the below the Stars high school summer research program at UT southwestern. She is too young for it as yet, but BECAUSE you homeschool, it might be possible for you to have her work in a lab over the summer when she turns 16, and then continue working there during the school year.  Or try calling up the UT Southwestern office, ask who runs the program, and see if you can speak to one of the scientists who work with this program.  When I was 16, I had a summer high school research opportunity at Georgetown University through the American Heart Association and parlayed that into a part time internship during the school year.

 

http://www.utsouthwestern.edu/education/programs/stars/programs/summer-research-opportunities.html

 

An important purpose of this program is to encourage students in North Texas with excellent academic records and a love of science to purse science-related fields. Participating is limited by funding resources. High school juniors completing the program act as emissaries at their home school by giving presentations outlining their research experiences. The summer experience will take place biomedical research laboratories only and will not include any clinical or shadowing opportunities.

 

Eligibility: Applicants must be at least 16 years old by June 1, before the program begins, be currently classified as a junior, and be enrolled in high school. All citizens or nationals of the United States or those eligible to work in the United States are eligible regardless of race, national origin, religion, gender, age, or disability. This experience is intended to give students the opportunity to experience what it is like to work in a modern biomedical research laboratory, so students with prior research experience are not eligible for this program.

 

Also look at these:

 

http://www.slideshare.net/Medresearch/summer-research-programs-university-of-north-texas

 

 Research Science Institute

 

The Research Science Institute (RSI) is an intensive summer program for outstanding high school students offered by the Center for Excellence in Education and hosted at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. Participants have the opportunity to experience the entire research cycle through coursework in scientific theory and hands-on practice in science and technology research, culminating in oral and written research reports. The program includes one week of classes and a five-week research internship where students conduct their individual research project. RSI is cost-free to students. Learn more.

 

　

[Bristayl]

 I would particularly suggest you look at the below the Stars high school summer research program at UT southwestern. 

 

Yes, thank you for this suggestion! I have had contact with them in another context (my Vet Science 4H club) but hadn't yet looked much into the summer research program for my dd. I will definitely have to take a closer look at that.

[Bristayl]

I can recommend Hewitt's Conceptual Physics and Suchocki's Conceptual Chemistry for this purpose.

 

If we were to do both of these, which should we do first?

[regentrude]

If we were to do both of these, which should we do first?

 

From a systematic point of view, physics, since chemistry is an application of physics and chemistry is entirely governed by physical principles.

From a practical point of view, I doubt it matters.

 

ETA: I have loaned out my Conceptual Chem text and do not know what, if any, math is needed. Conceptual Physics requires a very small  amount of basic prealgebra/beginnig algebra.

[Bristayl]

From a systematic point of view, physics, since chemistry is an application of physics and chemistry is entirely governed by physical principles.

From a practical point of view, I doubt it matters.

 

Thanks. I was leaning toward doing physics first anyway, and someone else on this thread suggested that if I did so, dd may have enough math by the following year to do a "regular" introductory chemistry course. But we can decide that when the time comes.

[shadanjem]

But - no matter which one "should" come first, if they don't like it, not sure it matters.  After tons of research, decided on Hewitt's Conceptual Physics this year for 8th.  Just knew DS would like it (I liked it).  He HATED it.  I'm not sure I explain more than that.  This kid farms, enjoys repairing stuff on the farm, generally figures stuff out, had the math to complete it, doesn't have a problem completing his schoolwork in general, but he despised the CP book.  Since it was torture to get through CP (we didn't), I rethought Chemistry for next year.  Bought the 1000 page Miller - Levine Biology for 9th next year.  He's already started it and really enjoys it.  The best laid plans....... oh well.   

[regentrude]

But - no matter which one "should" come first, if they don't like it, not sure it matters.  After tons of research, decided on Hewitt's Conceptual Physics this year for 8th.  Just knew DS would like it (I liked it).  He HATED it.  I'm not sure I explain more than that.  This kid farms, enjoys repairing stuff on the farm, generally figures stuff out, had the math to complete it, doesn't have a problem completing his schoolwork in general, but he despised the CP book.  Since it was torture to get through CP (we didn't), I rethought Chemistry for next year.  Bought the 1000 page Miller - Levine Biology for 9th next year.  He's already started it and really enjoys it.  The best laid plans....... oh well.   

 

Was it because he was annoyed by the cutesy pictures  and found the tone patronizing? I could see why a student might not mesh with CP. For us, Exploring the way life works flopped spectacularly for this reason; my kids were  happier diving right into Campbell than being subjected to cutesy graphics and similes like "molecules are like dancers holding hands"... arrrgh

[shadanjem]

OOH, you may be right.  I just decided we would flip it around, follow his interest (bio, thinks he wants to follow dad into medicine), and wait on Physics until later.  He doesn't like patronizing - in anything.  He hated the elementary & middle school chemistry and physics books for that reason as well (those were never completed either).  OK, now I feel better about why CP totally flopped.  I mean - the kid can explain the physics behind farm equipment, but drew blanks of hatred over CP.  Thanks!  

[Bristayl]

Was it because he was annoyed by the cutesy pictures  and found the tone patronizing? I could see why a student might not mesh with CP. For us, Exploring the way life works flopped spectacularly for this reason; my kids were  happier diving right into Campbell than being subjected to cutesy graphics and similes like "molecules are like dancers holding hands"... arrrgh

 

Haha--I noticed this while I was looking at the online sample chapters. I'd better show dd the samples and see what she thinks!

[kiana]

 

<<Why? Stretching calculus 1 over two semesters effectively requires the students to spend only half as much time and effort on the course each semester as they would have to otherwise. Sure, if you are going at half speed, more people will pass... and the degree program will take 8 years instead of 4 if that is done across the board in all subjects. This example shows that if you only expect half as much work from the students, more are likely to pass - exactly the point.>>

 

Calculus 1 was a two semester course in every 4 year college when I was in college in the late 1970s. 

I'd love to see a source on this. I see we've already debunked the 'course load was 12 credits a semester' part. I know both my parents went to engineering school in the early 1970s at a decent but not superb school and their calculus coursework was calc 1, calc 2, multivariable calculus, differential equations. It's possible, I guess, that there was a course called 'calculus 1' which covered differential and integral single-variable calculus.

 

 

I'm not sure what it is you are teaching. If, by a STEM course you mean developmental algebra, than I agree that US community colleges, and the non-credit departments of 4 year universities indeed do a fine job of trying to get poorly prepared students up to the point at which they can take for credit classes. However, foreign students do not come here and take developmental algebra.  I am thinking about actual STEM major "weeder courses," the kind designed to thin the herd, by encouraging students to drop out or switch to less demanding majors. Biology for science majors, organic chemistry, physics for science majors, physical chemistry, Calculus II and III are "weeder" courses. Developmental algebra is a "feeder course."  It is designed to be passed by almost anybody.

 

I have taught all levels from the lowest level of developmental algebra through junior and senior math major courses. None of them were designed to fail people. Yes, calculus frequently *does* have a high failure rate (although nowhere near as high as the failure rate in college algebra, which usually has the highest failure rate among undergraduate coursework). This is primarily because we have people come in who were bright students in high school and never had to open their books to learn anything (primarily because the high school was so unchallenging), and we are expecting them to not only remember everything from their previous math classes but also apply it in many situations while learning something new. You see, in most previous levels of math (including most high school) much of the previous year is reviewed. This stops at calculus. Yes, we could increase the pass rate by incorporating more review and spreading it over more semesters, if we wanted to *require* a 5-year degree.

[kiana]

Haha--I noticed this while I was looking at the online sample chapters. I'd better show dd the samples and see what she thinks!

Good idea -- if she hates it it's much better to find out now.

 

There are a lot of different high school pathways and many of them are good. As long as her *math* is up to par, it's going to turn out all right. Don't make the perfect the enemy of the good.

[Kathy in Richmond]

I'd love to see a source on this. I see we've already debunked the 'course load was 12 credits a semester' part. I know both my parents went to engineering school in the early 1970s at a decent but not superb school and their calculus coursework was calc 1, calc 2, multivariable calculus, differential equations. It's possible, I guess, that there was a course called 'calculus 1' which covered differential and integral single-variable calculus.

kiana, I was going to comment on this part the other day, but I didn't know if it was worth the effort. :tongue_smilie:

 

At the risk of dating myself, I attended college in the 70s and graduated with my math doctorate in the early 80s. I TA'd and taught math classes at four different universities during those decades, and I visited/knew profs at several others. Calc 1 and Calc 2 had essentially the same meanings and syllabi then as they do today. If anything, today's calculus classes are a bit more watered down & easier due to dropping some theory (like epsilon delta proofs) that used to be taught more frequently.

 

 

I have taught all levels from the lowest level of developmental algebra through junior and senior math major courses. None of them were designed to fail people. Yes, calculus frequently *does* have a high failure rate (although nowhere near as high as the failure rate in college algebra, which usually has the highest failure rate among undergraduate coursework). This is primarily because we have people come in who were bright students in high school and never had to open their books to learn anything (primarily because the high school was so unchallenging), and we are expecting them to not only remember everything from their previous math classes but also apply it in many situations while learning something new. You see, in most previous levels of math (including most high school) much of the previous year is reviewed. This stops at calculus. Yes, we could increase the pass rate by incorporating more review and spreading it over more semesters, if we wanted to *require* a 5-year degree.

Yes, yes, and yes! Same experience here. Some things never change! I have to say that I never once worked in a math department where the professors were out to fail kids. If anything, they did everything they could to keep that from happening.

[Atilla the Mom]

<<I'd love to see a source on this>>

 

I don't know where I would even look for a source on what was covered in Calc 1 back in the 70s.  However, I do know that Calc I was done over two semesters at GW University in Washington DC (where I took it.)  I didn't take Calculus at Bryn Mawr College because I had already done it, but it was taught over two semesters there too.  I don't know anything about Calculus II and III at Bryn Mawr, although the math majors took those. Bio majors didn't need them and Bryn Mawr didn't have an engineering major. Northwestern University (my sister was in their 6 year med program as a Chem major) and Dartmouth College (my brother went there as a Bio major) also taught Calculus I over two semesters and didn't require Calc II or III. Of note,  I thought Introductory Chemistry at Bryn Mawr College was substantially easier than my daughter's Introductory Chemistry at Arizona State University.  Organic Chemistry and my upper level Bio courses at Bryn Mawr were, of course, substantially harder than my daughter's Introductory Biology or Introductory Chemistry course, but Biology for Premedical Students at George Washington University in the 1970s was WAY easier than Introductory Biology as taught at Arizona State University or for that matter, high school Biology as taught in the 1970s at the National Cathedral School for Girls in Washington DC.  (Lots of people failed GWU's Biology for Premedical Students, even though it was all multiple choice and short answer however; I was surprised.) My sister thought Northwestern's chemistry and physics coursework was substantially easier than Arizona State University's Chemistry and Physics coursework as well.  As for Dartmouth, don't make me laugh.  If you weren't in their Computer Science or Engineering program, it was all pretty easy back then.  Most of the boys couldn't write for peanuts.  My brother spent most of his time at Smith, dating his future wife via helping her with her homework, and got into Yale Medical School, no problem. .  I haven't solicited my brother's opinion on this subject, but last fall, when he visited, he picked up my younger kid's Precalculus textbook, flipped through it,  looked blown away, and asked hopefully if she was the smartest kid in her grade. (She thought he was teasing her, gave him a dirty look and denied the claim.  There are a lot of very smart kids at Bentonville High, which has nearly 4000 students this year.)  I then showed him my eldest's College Algebra book, and he looked shellshocked. He has since decided to permit his son (who is only a couple of months older than my younger kid) to come home from military school for this coming fall, on condition that the boy agree to attend a decent preparatory school, take all AP classes plus Algebra II/Trig, and keep his GPA above a 3.0.  Previously his plan had been to leave him there through senior year with the hopes of getting him into Dartmouth or Yale, due to legacy status, 4.3 GPA and excellent test scores.  (My nephew agreed like a lamb.  Military school sucks even if you are the best looking horse in the glue factory. )

 

To be truthful, I think all the big name universities and boys schools were riding on their reputations back then. The Ivys had only just opened their doors to women, and had opened their doors to minorities only a few years before that. I think that the white boys weren't used to having to compete, and the Unis weren't used to having to make them, since  previously there had been no pretence of the Ivys being a meritocracy; it was understood that they were a finishing school for rich boys.   St. Albans School for Boys in Washington DC was WAY easier than National Cathedral School for Girls back then; my bro took French and History at NCS and moaned about how hard they were.  I took Physics (NCS didn't have physics back then), second semester HS Biology and Advanced Chemistry at STA and they were all substantially easier than Intro Chemistry or first semester Biology at NCS.  Girls who got C's and D's in first semester Biology at NCS all got A's at STA that semester, while the boys in second semester biology at STA continued to have grades which following a normal distribution, including Ds and Fs.  (Everybody at NCS who had been in first semester Bio that year had their schedule messed up, which is why we had to take the second semester at STA. Not that I was complaining.  I was an A minus Biology student at NCS, but I got 100s on every test at STA, and furthermore, they were all short answer or multiple choice!)  Presumably the former boys schools and men's colleges have raised their game since then.

 

 

[vonfirmath]

Yes, thank you for this suggestion! I have had contact with them in another context (my Vet Science 4H club) but hadn't yet looked much into the summer research program for my dd. I will definitely have to take a closer look at that.

 

I did something REALLY similar at Texas A&M university the summer between high school and college.  I was doing work involved with denaturing DNA.  (I was a local student -- went to high school at A&M Consolidated -- and so was in a different pool as I recall)

 

In retrospect, I wish I'd gone on and done more with it. I LOVED that summer but was afraid of the dissection, etc. necessary to get there (And thought I knew what I wanted)

 

[8filltheheart]

 

<<I'd love to see a source on this>>

 

I don't know where I would even look for a source on what was covered in Calc 1 back in the 70s.  However, I do know that Calc I was done over two semesters at GW University in Washington DC (where I took it.)  I didn't take Calculus at Bryn Mawr College because I had already done it, but it was taught over two semesters there too.  I don't know anything about Calculus II and III at Bryn Mawr, although the math majors took those. Bio majors didn't need them and Bryn Mawr didn't have an engineering major. Northwestern University (my sister was in their 6 year med program as a Chem major) and Dartmouth College (my brother went there as a Bio major) also taught Calculus I over two semesters and didn't require Calc II or III. Of note,  I thought Introductory Chemistry at Bryn Mawr College was substantially easier than my daughter's Introductory Chemistry at Arizona State University.  Organic Chemistry and my upper level Bio courses at Bryn Mawr were, of course, substantially harder than my daughter's Introductory Biology or Introductory Chemistry course, but Biology for Premedical Students at George Washington University in the 1970s was WAY easier than Introductory Biology as taught at Arizona State University (or for that matter, high school Biology as taught in the 1970s at the National Cathedral School for Girls in Washington DC.)  (Lots of people failed Biology for Premedical Students, however; I was surprised.) My sister thought Northwestern's chemistry and physics coursework was substantially easier than Arizona State University's Chemistry and Physics coursework as well.  As for Dartmouth, don't make me laugh.  If you weren't in their Computer Science or Engineering program, it was all pretty easy back then.  Most of the boys couldn't right for peanuts.  My brother spent most of his time at Smith, dating his future wife via helping her with her homework, and got into Yale Medical School, no problem. 

 

To be truthful, I think all the big name universities and boys schools were riding on their reputations back then. The Ivys had only just opened their doors to women, and had only opened their doors to minorities a few years before that. I think that the white boys weren't used to having to compete, and the unis weren't used to having to make them, since  previously there had been no pretence of the Ivys being a meritocracy.    St. Albans School for Boys in Washington DC was WAY easier than National Cathedral School for Girls back then; my bro took French and History at NCS and moaned about how hard they were.  I took Physics (NCS didn't have physics back then), second semester HS Biology and Advanced Chemistry at STA and they were all substantially easier than at NCS.  Girls who got C's and D's in first semester Biology at NCS all got A's at STA that semester, while the boys in second semester biology at STA that semester had grades which following a normal distribution, including Ds and Fs.  (Everybody at NCS who had been in first semester Bio that year had their schedule messed up, which is why we had to take the second semester at STA. Not that I was complaining.  I was an A minus Biology student at NCS, but I got 100s on every test at STA, and furthermore, they were all short answer or multiple choice!)  Presumably the former boys schools and men's colleges have raised their game since then.

 

Deleting my snark.  :tongue_smilie:  

 

Even when I went to my lowly state university, cal was taught 1, 2, and multivariable in 3 semesters.  And shockingly, my dh who is a chemE took that sequence.   FWIW, cal BC is both cal 1 and 2 in a single HIGH SCHOOL yr and more than doable for strong math students.

[Atilla the Mom]

<<Even when I went to my lowly state university, cal was taught 1, 2, and multivariable. And shockingly, my dh who is a chemE took that sequence. FWIW, cal BC is both cal 1 and 2 in a single HIGH SCHOOL yr and more than doable for strong math students>>

 

Well I wouldn't consider my younger kid an unusually strong math student, so she will stop at AP Stats and Introduction to Calculus, assuming she CLEPs out of College Alegebra. Most med schools have quit requiring calculus and I have never ever  used it. 

 

However, my point is that back in the 1970s, there was a lot more focus on making sure that students understood the material even in the difficult courses, at least at the prestigious colleges. It may be true that at state schools even then, these courses were done in one semester rather than two.  However, I don't see that as being excellent teaching if what most students need is more time on task, and more of what is today called "handholding." IMHO all it does is kill your GPA.  Bryn Mawr College regularly got and continues to get 95-100% of students identifying themselves as premed on college entry into medical school, and they did/do very well there.  I will bet big money that that most entering premeds don't make it to med school in most state schools.  Yes, the transition to post college life was a bit traumatic.  I was used to having collegial relationships with all my profs, and being allowed to spend the night in the infirmary for "respite care" during exam week if I thought the dorms were too noisy.  (In the infirmary, you could have dinner and breakfast in bed, and could have coffee, tea, hot chocolate and icecream on demand, but if you were still in bed at 7:45 AM the next morning the doctor would check you out just to make sure that wasn't something actually wrong. And if there was an epidemic, you were asked nicely to go back to your dorm.)  Med School was a much colder world.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I'm wondering is there is a terminology issue with the discussion of semesters of calculus.

 

When I say that I took calc 1 I am thinking of the calculus 101 course. When I say calc 2 I am thinking of the following semester when I took calc 102. When I think of the calculus 201 and 202 courses I tend to think of them as third semester cal and differential equations. In other words I took calc one in one semester but took a year to go through the 100 level of calculus.

 

On the other hand I tend to think of chemistry, physics and electrical engineering as two paired one semester courses. I wouldn't say I did chem one and chem two. I took introductory college chemistry in Chem 101 and Chem 102.

 

These were courses taken in the late 1980's.

[Atilla the Mom]

<<I'm wondering is there is a terminology issue with the discussion of semesters of calculus. When I say that I took calc 1 I am thinking of the calculus 101 course. When I say calc 2 I am thinking of the following semester when I took calc 102. When I think of the calculus 201 and 202 courses I tend to think of them as third semester cal and differential equations. In other words I took calc one in one semester but took a year to go through the 100 level of calculus.  On the other hand I tend to think of chemistry, physics and electrical engineering as two paired one semester courses. I wouldn't say I did chem one and chem two. I took introductory college chemistry in Chem 101 and Chem 102.  These were courses taken in the late 1980's.>>

 

That was the way it was for me at college also. Calc 1 was a two semester course with the first semester being Calc 101 and the second Calc 102. Each semester carried 4 credits for a total of 8 credits. Intro Chemistry was a two semester course called Chem 101 and Chem 102 and each semester was worth 5 credits for a total of 10 credits. However, at Arizona State University, a couple of years ago, Intro Chemistry was a 5 credit 1 semester course and not only covered the material covered in both semesters of Chem 101/102 back in the 1970s, but covered parts of Biochemistry, Organic chemistry and Physical chemistry as well.  The kids are being stiffed of at least half the credits that the course work rightfully should have carried, were this the mid 1970s rather than the 2010s.  

[kiana]

I'm wondering is there is a terminology issue with the discussion of semesters of calculus.

 

When I say that I took calc 1 I am thinking of the calculus 101 course. When I say calc 2 I am thinking of the following semester when I took calc 102. When I think of the calculus 201 and 202 courses I tend to think of them as third semester cal and differential equations. In other words I took calc one in one semester but took a year to go through the 100 level of calculus.

 

On the other hand I tend to think of chemistry, physics and electrical engineering as two paired one semester courses. I wouldn't say I did chem one and chem two. I took introductory college chemistry in Chem 101 and Chem 102.

 

These were courses taken in the late 1980's.

 

Yes, this is what I was wondering earlier -- if there had possibly been a 'calc 1a' and 'calc 1b' which covered differential and integral single-variable calculus but were together called 'calculus 1'. 

 

Otherwise I cannot imagine why one person's experience would be so different from every other person's experience. 

[Bristayl]

 Don't make the perfect the enemy of the good.

 

I love that! Thanks!

[Bristayl]

I did something REALLY similar at Texas A&M university the summer between high school and college.  I was doing work involved with denaturing DNA.  (I was a local student -- went to high school at A&M Consolidated -- and so was in a different pool as I recall)

 

In retrospect, I wish I'd gone on and done more with it. I LOVED that summer but was afraid of the dissection, etc. necessary to get there (And thought I knew what I wanted)

 

Yes, the UT Southwestern summer research program looks like it would be a great opportunity. It looks pretty competitive, though--for this year's program there were 800 applicants for 33 spots. 

 

ETA: They have a list of program alumni back to 2000, and none of them have been homeschooled, so if we managed to do this we would be breaking new ground!

[regentrude]

 

Well I wouldn't consider my younger kid an unusually strong math student, so she will stop at AP Stats and Introduction to Calculus, assuming she CLEPs out of College Alegebra. Most med schools have quit requiring calculus and I have never ever  used it. 

 

However, my point is that back in the 1970s, there was a lot more focus on making sure that students understood the material even in the difficult courses, at least at the prestigious colleges. It may be true that at state schools even then, these courses were done in one semester rather than two.  However, I don't see that as being excellent teaching if what most students need is more time on task, and more of what is today called "handholding." IMHO all it does is kill your GPA.  Bryn Mawr College regularly got and continues to get 95-100% of students identifying themselves as premed on college entry into medical school, and they did/do very well there.  I will bet big money that that most entering premeds don't make it to med school in most state schools.

My premeds tell me that 95% of applicants from our (public) university get into med school.

 

It is not the med school that would require calculus for a premed, but the department where the student goes for his undergrad degree. Whether calc is needed is entirely dependent on the undergrad college and the student's major.

Most of our premeds are biological sciences major, and calc 1 is a required course for a biology major at our school. Of course, the applicant who will really stand out among all those life science majors is the one with a double major in physics and chemistry with minors on French and philosophy ;-) (and yes, that is not a fictional character, but one of my actual real life advisees)

[Bristayl]

On research, especially on the animal side, have you looked into local science projects? Even just local citizen science stuff can lead into making connections with people in the field doing more involved research, and that can be valuable, and a good showing at JSHS or ISEF, or publishing in a peer-reviewed journal before entering high school is likely to be worth more in getting undergrad research opportunities than having Sophomore or Junior class standing, especially in a large school with a big graduate student population.

 

I finally had the chance to look at our state's JSHS program, and it specifically says it is open to homeschoolers. However, since it involves presenting a paper on research the student has done, I am not sure how we would have access to the lab equipment I assume would be needed to do that level of research. Perhaps if dd were older and had a specific research topic in mind, she might be able to approach a professor about working with her on it. I don't know how feasible that would be, either--just brainstorming.

[kiana]

I finally had the chance to look at our state's JSHS program, and it specifically says it is open to homeschoolers. However, since it involves presenting a paper on research the student has done, I am not sure how we would have access to the lab equipment I assume would be needed to do that level of research. Perhaps if dd were older and had a specific research topic in mind, she might be able to approach a professor about working with her on it. I don't know how feasible that would be, either--just brainstorming.

 

Sometimes, research can be done in a more ecological manner -- this is something where finding a local mentor would be a brilliant idea if possible. 

[Bristayl]

Sometimes, research can be done in a more ecological manner -- this is something where finding a local mentor would be a brilliant idea if possible. 

 

Could you elaborate on how it could be done in a more ecological manner? Curious about how that would work. I am assuming you mean it would not necessarily have to be done in a university-level research lab.

[kiana]

Could you elaborate on how it could be done in a more ecological manner? Curious about how that would work. I am assuming you mean it would not necessarily have to be done in a university-level research lab.

 

Yes, one of my friends did research in environmental science a while ago and had some science-interested elementary students helping her count butterflies -- I would be thinking of something a little more challenging for an older student of course. I'm not sure exactly what that would be as my field is math and not biology.

[Bristayl]

Yes, one of my friends did research in environmental science a while ago and had some science-interested elementary students helping her count butterflies -- I would be thinking of something a little more challenging for an older student of course. I'm not sure exactly what that would be as my field is math and not biology.

 

Ok, thanks for helping me think outside the box!

[Atilla the Mom]

<<My premeds tell me that 95% of applicants from our (public) university get into med school.>>

 

I suspect you are defining "premed" as those people calling themselves premed at the end of junior year (which is the point of application to grad school. Bryn Mawr defined "premed" as those people identifying themselves as such at the beginning of freshman year. This is a much broader population and included students electing definitely unusual majors. (A Greek major was one of them at Bryn Mawr; I know because we shared a suite junior year.  At Smith College, my brother's future wife majored in Interior Design prior to going to med school.  At GWU, quite a lot of people were premed, but changed their minds during Biology for Premedical Students. (It was one of GWU's weeder courses.)

 

<<It is not the med school that would require calculus for a premed, but the department where the student goes for his undergrad degree. >>

 

In the 1970s all med schools required Calculus just as they required Organic Chemistry and Physics (which my Biology major did not require, but which I had to take anyway.)  The Greek major with whom I roomed with at Bryn Mawr had to take Calculus, Introductory Chemistry, Organic Chemistry, Introductory Biology and Introductory Physics despite her major not requiring any of the above.  I assume that was also true for students at Smith in Interior Design although I never asked.

[Atilla the Mom]

<<I finally had the chance to look at our state's JSHS program, and it specifically says it is open to homeschoolers. However, since it involves presenting a paper on research the student has done, I am not sure how we would have access to the lab equipment I assume would be needed to do that level of research. Perhaps if dd were older and had a specific research topic in mind, she might be able to approach a professor about working with her on it. I don't know how feasible that would be, either--just brainstorming.>>

 

I would think in terms of epidemiology. You say she is in some sort of a junior vet program; well, animals have a lot of interesting diseases, and these are reportable to either the local Department of Agriculture or the local Department of Health.  (Google Reportable <Name of Animal Disease> <State name>)  All US State Departments use the Epi Info software - free to everybody including you from US Centers for Disease Control - and she should be able to get access to the databases and use them, as they are mostly online.  (Most foreign countries use Epi Info also.)  They have an excellent series of training materials. 

 

https://wwwn.cdc.gov/epiinfo/html/downloads.htm

 

https://wwwn.cdc.gov/epiinfo/html/training.htm

 

https://wwwn.cdc.gov/epiinfo/7/index.htm

 

Epidemiology is very interesting, and is accessible to high school students, and makes Statistics easy, accessible and interesting. I did my MPH in that. You might want to get your kiddo a copy of Berton Rouche's 11 Blue Men or his Medical Detectives.  Actually all his stuff is first rate!   He was a reporter back in the 1940s - 60s, and wrote very accessible, interesting, newspaper articles on medical curiosities, including epidemic diseases, which were MUCH more interesting subjects back then in the preantibiotic era. He later turned them into True Crime style short stories compiled into several books.  http://www.amazon.com/Berton-Roueche/e/B000APV2RK/ref=sr_ntt_srch_lnk_1?qid=1399316246&sr=8-1

 

 

[LMV]

<<Even when I went to my lowly state university, cal was taught 1, 2, and multivariable. And shockingly, my dh who is a chemE took that sequence. FWIW, cal BC is both cal 1 and 2 in a single HIGH SCHOOL yr and more than doable for strong math students>>

 

Well I wouldn't consider my younger kid an unusually strong math student, so she will stop at AP Stats and Introduction to Calculus, assuming she CLEPs out of College Alegebra. Most med schools have quit requiring calculus and I have never ever  used it. 

 

 

 

I guess I finished medical a few decades after you but I know the medical school I attended is still requiring calculus now and when my stepson was applying five years ago most of the schools he was interested in wanted calculus and some wanted two semesters.  Now some of those schools would have been happy with the fact that he had gotten a five on his Calc B exam in a former life and his college awarded him some credits for that feat.  Others would have been unimpressed by that but appeased that he had taken differential equations on campus along with a graduate level calculus based statistics course.  Some medical schools also want students to have taken the calculus based section of physics even if they may not require calculus per se, so it can be useful on that front.

[Atilla the Mom]

<<Epidemiology is very interesting, and is accessible to high school students, and makes Statistics easy, accessible and interesting.>>

 

For example, in Texas, the Department of Health is the receiving agency for zoonotic diseases. Supposing you are interested in  tularemia, a common disease of rabbits and other mammals and an occupational hazard for farmers, foresters and veterinarians.  https://www.dshs.state.tx.us/preparedness/bt_public_history_tularemia.shtm  You wonder how it is affected by the drought currently in effect in Texas.  Could drought decrease rates of tularemia in humans by cutting the number of rabbits and mice via impacting their food supply?  Could it increase rates of tularemia by driving these animals closer to human territory?  You pull the reportable cases for several years (broken out by zip code.  You lookup population density, agricultural practices, rainfall and temperature statistics by zip code for the same time span.  You figure out if there is an effect or not, and if so, if it is significant. (Epiinfo has nice statistical tools.)  You use Epiinfo's included tables, graphs, and mapping software to make it look good, write it up as best as you can, and then you call up the Texas State Epidemiologist, explain what your kid is doing, and ask him/her if he/she would be so kind as to go over the data with your kid and help her improve it as this is part of her science project. You email what you've got so far to him/her carefully withholding the raw data in order to keep from being stiffed.  You will get some sort of response, as this will be a bright spot in their dreary round of explaining to concerned citizens (CC) that the high apparent rate of prostate cancer in their neighborhood is not due as the CC thinks to the local water supply, but rather to the high rates of smoking/alcohol useage/old guys in their particular area.  You take the advice given, and try to improve on it, and you go back to him/her with the new findings.  Presto!  You have a mentor, who will have an vested interest in being the second author on this paper. The kid will be the first author.

[LMV]

BCTNLN,

 

I think if your daughter has the aptitude and background to take college level courses before officially enrolling then that may be an appropriate challenge for her.   I do think it is important to ensure that these courses have sufficient rigor if you plan to have them replace college cores and I also think it is important to identify the courses that probably should be taken on campus at the desired university.  Our eldest daughter is currently a freshman molecular biology major and she took the AP version of all of her science cores and did very well on the AP exams.  She also took several upper level biology and math courses at our local university as a non matriculated student.   Academically we probably could have sent her to college in fall 2009 and she could have held her own (but probably not truly excelled the way she is now) but she was thirteen and her dad and I both had some real reservations with that so we kept her home, and kept her challenged through AP courses and non matriculated courses.  I intentionally advised her to wait to take organic until she was on her desired campus because I thought that would be a bit of a major core for her and I wanted her to take it at her desired university so it would better prepare her for advanced work there.  I think there are a lot of differences in how some courses are taught and what directions are taken and you need to have gone in the directions that will you set you up for success beyond the cores.

 

Our daughter entered college this past fall as a freshman.  Between her AP and non matriculated credits she transferred in the maximum number of credits allowed and was essentially a freshman with sophomore standing.  Her intention is to spend four years in college and take advantage of her credit cushion to allow time for D1 athletics (go soccer!) and research in her field.  We think this is a good plan.  I will say that putting together her first fall quarter schedule was a bit uncertain because some of the courses it might have been ideal for her to have taken weren't offered and we just weren't sure if she might be in over her head having used her AP credits in calculus , chemistry, and physics.  Her school didn't award credit for AP biology so that wasn't an issue but did give her credit for one of the upper level biology courses she had taken and allowed her to take one of her required biology without a specific pre-requisite. In the end it all worked out she has done very well and made the dean's list but I admit I was a little worried for her.  I trusted that she is very accurate in her self assessment skills and would be assertive enough to adjust her schedule if needed.  I think this is also an important consideration if advising your kids regarding accepting or not accepting credit. 

[Atilla the Mom]

The med school Calculus prerequisite varies considerably. Osteopathic schools (which tend to be cheaper and now have access to the same specialties seem to prefer Stats to Calculus. I'm an MD myself, but I think that DOs are in some ways a better track.  Of course, I also think that NPs are the way of the future.

 

[kiana]

A lot of med schools are now letting people in with a semester of calc and a semester of stats OR two semesters of calc, and some don't require the calc at all, but if I were a student I would take both calc 1 + 2 + stats unless I were quite bad at mathematics -- admission is competitive enough that I wouldn't want there to be anything for an admissions committee to poke at.

[LMV]

A lot of med schools are now letting people in with a semester of calc and a semester of stats OR two semesters of calc, and some don't require the calc at all, but if I were a student I would take both calc 1 + 2 + stats unless I were quite bad at mathematics -- admission is competitive enough that I wouldn't want there to be anything for an admissions committee to poke at.

 

Agreed. I had all of this background (and a little more) when I was applying.  My stepson had this background plus a lot more (he toyed with being an engineer like his dad initially).  Our daughter has beyond this background already as a freshman.  She still isn't completely sure about medical school and may pursue the MD/PhD road even if she does so she will end up with much more math and science than medical schools require just to meet the requirements of her bachelor's (and ensure she isn't closing any PhD doors).

[Bristayl]

  Presto!  You have a mentor, who will have an vested interest in being the second author on this paper. The kid will be the first author.

 

Thank you so much for this concrete example of how this might be accomplished! 

[Dmmetler]

I finally had the chance to look at our state's JSHS program, and it specifically says it is open to homeschoolers. However, since it involves presenting a paper on research the student has done, I am not sure how we would have access to the lab equipment I assume would be needed to do that level of research. Perhaps if dd were older and had a specific research topic in mind, she might be able to approach a professor about working with her on it. I don't know how feasible that would be, either--just brainstorming.

 

Call the program that sponsors the regional JSHS and see what they say. Honestly, if anything, HS kids often have an advantage here. Few high schools truly have really, really good lab set ups available for students to use for independent research either, so often almost ALL the kids in such competitions are either having to find lab access somewhere or do a project that they can manage at home (and many can be), and homeschooled kids have more flexibility to work around open lab hours than PS kids do.

 

If a university hosts JSHS, they will have someone who works pretty closely with local schools and the local science community to run said competitions, and that person is a great resource in finding what local doors may be good to knock on, what steps need to be taken in advance (for example, anything involving animals or people require having a medical professional (DVM or MD) who has signed off on the project) and so on.

[Bristayl]

Call the program that sponsors the regional JSHS and see what they say. 

 

Thanks for this suggestion!

[Bristayl]

In researching the various textbooks that have been suggested to me on this thread, I came across some texts intended for "allied health" majors, such as General Chemistry/Organic/Biochemistry in one semester, and Microbiology in one semester. I was wondering about using those as introductions to the topics before dd would take Bio, Chem, Phys, Organic as dual enrollment. Doing one-semester courses could allow her time to pursue some specific science topics of interest to her, such as Plant Biology, and it would give her  more variety than just going through the same subjects twice. Any opinions? Would the "allied health" texts be so geared toward those majors that they wouldn't be helpful in her situation, or would they still provide a decent introduction?

[katilac]

A lot of med schools are now letting people in with a semester of calc and a semester of stats OR two semesters of calc, and some don't require the calc at all, but if I were a student I would take both calc 1 + 2 + stats unless I were quite bad at mathematics -- admission is competitive enough that I wouldn't want there to be anything for an admissions committee to poke at.

 

One valuable thing I have learned from these boards is that what is required is not the same as what will actually get you admitted.