Ask an Orthodox Jew

[YaelAldrich]

I have learned so much about the Jewish faith through threads/posts like this, and I appreciate that it has changed my understanding over the last few years.  Thank you for your role in that. 

 

Regarding Jews converting to Christianity: What if they want to of their own will, outside of a movement like Jews for Jesus or some such "messianic" approach?  Our Orthodox (Christian) pastor is a Jew who converted to Christianity through his own prayer and reading as a young adult.  (He was raised a secular/atheistic Jew).  He's not anti-Judaism at all.  He speaks with great respect of the Jewish people (and includes himself as one), but he's fully Christian. 

 

Which I guess brings up a second question -- how can someone be an atheistic Jew?  He's very clear that that was how he was raised. If the basis of Judaism is being one have God's chosen (which I believe and respect), how can one be an atheist? 

 

I have NO "hidden" thought behind my questions!  They are truly sincere.  Just wanted to understand more. 

 

Yes, Judaism is a religion,but we are also a people and in modern society, religion is separated from peoplehood.  There is Secular Humanist Judaism.  They don't believe in G-d, but they celebrate the holidays, they have a synagogues and prayerbook and even a seminary!  They espouse they greatness of Judaism through the Peoplehood of Jews, not G-d.   

 

The rules I mentioned above (death before conversion, immoral sexual acts, and murder) apply no matter what.  Someone like your priest must have worked on his inner life very hard while trying to figure the nature of the world and if G-d existed and for that he should be praised.  However, it pains me greatly that he didn't seek out truth in his own faith before turning  to another.  But he's not the only one.  There are too many Jews who were told (in so many words) Judaism was empty and void and then they didn't know they could find so much justice, beauty and wisdom in Judaism.  They are priests, pastors, imams, gurus and other spiritual masters.  A rite of passage after the army, modern, secular Israelis flock to India, Thailand, China and Japan to seek wisdom when wisdom is right at home. Sometimes they come home and sometimes they are lost to us.  It hurts.

[YaelAldrich]

Do all sins require a sacrifice? Do the animals sacrificed represent several sins at a time (like the chicken represented times when you've lost your temper, plus times when you've told lies, etc. etc.)?

Judaism is nothing if not organized. :D

 

Here is a list of the korbanos from https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/qorbanot.html

 

[sorry guys, taken off due to SWB's request] 

 

 

[Ameena]

Parah Adumah: The Red Heifer

 

 

The ritual of the red heifer (in Hebrew, parah adumah) is part of one of the most mysterious rituals described in the Torah. The purpose of this ritual is to purify people from the defilement caused by contact with the dead. The ritual is discussed in Numbers 19. If you find it difficult to understand, don't feel bad; the sages themselves described it as beyond human understanding. What is so interesting about this ritual is that it purifies the impure, but it also renders the pure impure (i.e., everybody who participates in the ritual becomes impure).

It is believed by many that this ritual will be performed by the messiah when he comes, because we have all suffered the defilement of contact with the dead. Thus, the existence of a red heifer is a possible, but not definite, sign of the messiah. If the messiah were coming, there would be a red heifer, but there could be a red heifer without the messiah coming.

 

 

Very interesting. I know many plains Native American tribes have a similar legend {without all the ritual / sacrifice portion} about the existence of a White Buffalo. Never realized there was a similar belief elsewhere in the world.

[milovany]

...Sometimes they come home and sometimes they are lost to us.  It hurts.

 

I'm sorry I caused perhaps a twinge of pain. He's a wonderful priest to his flock. I do now have a better comprehension of his situation. Thank you. I could see how where if he was never taken to anything Jewish by his parents, which he wasn't, how he'd be open to another faith when one came along (although since I have not the experience of having a "people" like the Jews do, and like he does, maybe I don't fully get how it perhaps could have been foremost in his mind to turn to religious Judaism if he wanted a spirituality). 

[YaelAldrich]

I'm sorry I caused perhaps a twinge of pain. He's a wonderful priest to his flock. I do now have a better comprehension of his situation. Thank you. I could see how where if he was never taken to anything Jewish by his parents, which he wasn't, how he'd be open to another faith when one came along (although since I have not the experience of having a "people" like the Jews do, and like he does, maybe I don't fully get how it perhaps could have been foremost in his mind to turn to religious Judaism if he wanted a spirituality). 

No worries darling. :) Please tell him his brothers and sisters love and miss him and if he ever wants to talk, we're here for him.

 

The non-Orthodox Jewish world has a lot of built up but unconscious (for the most part) anger/angst/acrimonious feeling towards the Orthodox.  Two and three generations ago everyone swore up and down that we wouldn't exist as we were too old fashioned to exist in the modern day.  We're still here and even they will admit it will be the Orthodox Jew who keeps Judaism alive here in the Diaspora.  

 

Your priest's parents were no different than my in-laws (who are intermarried BTW).  The only difference was that we actually looked at Judaism with open eyes and made a different decision.  Others look into Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, Pagan practices, whatever is "real" because Judaism is a religion for kids, full of kid's stories and superstition, and Orthodox Jews are old, bearded men or kerchief covered women who throw stones and poop at anyone different than them.  

 

My favorite site to show people what Orthodoxy and Orthodox Jews are is http://jewinthecity.com/ .  Allison is a old friend of mine and if you search, you can find a blurb she wrote about me (yet another different O Jew). :)

[Momof3]

Curious...

 

What do you believe about the passages of Scripture that we (Christians) believe refer to Messiah:

 

1) Isaiah 53 - speaks of Messiah being 'wounded for our transgressions,' 'with his stripes we are healed,' etc. I've heard that Orthodox Jews believe this passage to be referring to Israel & her sufferings...but then who is the 'my people' (v.8) for whom 'he' was afflicted?

 

2) Micah 5 - refers to Bethlehem-Ephratah as the city out of whom Messiah would come "yet out of thee shall he come forth that is to be ruler in Israel, whose goings forth have been from of old from everlasting" (v.2)... Do you believe Messiah will come from the city of Bethlehem? If not, to what is this verse referring?

 

3) Daniel 9 - "from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the time of Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks...and after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself..." Are you familiar with the belief that this passage is explaining the time of Messiah's presentation of himself? That it would be 483 years (69 sets of seven years) from the command to restore/rebuild the streets & walls of Jerusalem?

 

These are 'key' passages that we would use to prove from the scriptures that Jesus is the Messiah (His sufferings and substitutionary death, His birth and eternality, and the timing of His presenting Himself as King... I'm not at ALL trying to be antagonistic here, and I know you disagree with my interpretation of these passages. Just wondering if you could give an Orthodox understanding of these verses. 

 

Thanks for the thread! :)

[YaelAldrich]

Curious...

 

What do you believe about the passages of Scripture that we (Christians) believe refer to Messiah:

 

1) Isaiah 53 - speaks of Messiah being 'wounded for our transgressions,' 'with his stripes we are healed,' etc. I've heard that Orthodox Jews believe this passage to be referring to Israel & her sufferings...but then who is the 'my people' (v.8) for whom 'he' was afflicted?

 

2) Micah 5 - refers to Bethlehem-Ephratah as the city out of whom Messiah would come "yet out of thee shall he come forth that is to be ruler in Israel, whose goings forth have been from of old from everlasting" (v.2)... Do you believe Messiah will come from the city of Bethlehem? If not, to what is this verse referring?

 

3) Daniel 9 - "from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the time of Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks...and after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself..." Are you familiar with the belief that this passage is explaining the time of Messiah's presentation of himself? That it would be 483 years (69 sets of seven years) from the command to restore/rebuild the streets & walls of Jerusalem?

 

These are 'key' passages that we would use to prove from the scriptures that Jesus is the Messiah (His sufferings and substitutionary death, His birth and eternality, and the timing of His presenting Himself as King... I'm not at ALL trying to be antagonistic here, and I know you disagree with my interpretation of these passages. Just wondering if you could give an Orthodox understanding of these verses. 

 

Thanks for the thread! :)

 

Been out all afternoon/evening.  I need books to do justice to this question...

[ktgrok]

I have a question. I grew up on an area populated by many Jews (Palm Beach County, Florida) and thought everyone grew up playing dreidel in elementary school, lol. Anyway, it is my understanding that Temple refers to THE Temple, and that any other place of worship is a synagogue. Yet, many synagogues are named Temple Such and Such. Am I confused?

 

Never mind, looked it up. I was right, in the sense that Conservative and Orthodox would say only "The Temple" is a Temple. The Reform would call any place of jewish worship a Temple. And most of my friends growing up were Reform, hence my confusion. It always grated on me. Still does. 

[eternalsummer]

My grandparents always called going to the synagogue on Friday going to Temple.  They were (very) Reform, though.

[ktgrok]

My grandparents always called going to the synagogue on Friday going to Temple.  They were (very) Reform, though.

 

That's kind of what I'm wondering, if it is a Reform thing. I had one friend that was Conservative, but no Orthodox friends. And although I went to the Conservative girl's Bat Mitzvah I can't remember what the name of the synagogue was. 

[ktgrok]

never mind, answered my own question. I was right, sort of. http://www.jewfaq.org/shul.htm

[Heather in Neverland]

A question about head covering... I totally get covering your hair as an act of modesty, not drawing the attention of males other than your husband, etc. What I wonder about is how does covering your hair with more hair serve as an act of modesty? I could understand using a veil or a "snood" or a bandana and so forth (I live in a Muslim country and see head covering everywhere). But wouldn't a nice wig that looks like real hair have just as much a chance of attracting attention as a woman's real hair?

 

And is it true that some Jewish women actually shave their heads and then wear a wig?

[Jasperstone]

Great thread!!! :thumbup:

 

I was wondering what an Orthodox Jew believes happens to a Jew (that is secular) when he dies? Do they believe in heaven and hell, or a different concept to the Christian faith?

[umsami]

Thanks for answering. :))

 

I used to live near Borough Park, and so would see lots of Orthodox women at the park, etc.  From what I can remember, most would wear 3/4 length skirts (daughters too), 3/4 length shirts, etc.   Are pants totally verboten or does it depend on the community?

 

Also, if a young person decides not live as an Orthodox Jew when they are older (say they want to be Conservative), is there a point where they can make that decision and not be shunned or have repercussions within their own community? (I'm kind of thinking like the Amish…if they leave before they are baptized, it's not such a big deal.)

 

Oh…and a weird thing…. I was reading a book about a certain Orthodox sect, and there was a discussion about why they could or could snot eat a chocolate bar (I think it was Hershey) because of the symbol.  It had maybe an OU and some other chocolates had different symbols (maybe the OK or something else)….and only one was viewed as kashrut.  I know this may sound confusing…but do different communities follow different symbols? Is one viewed as more strict?

[Jasperstone]

Also was wondering why you think it's close to having the Temple built?

 

Is there a general feeling amongst the Jews, or are there certain signs that have been fulfilled lately? Thanx!!!

[milovany]

A question about head covering... I totally get covering your hair as an act of modesty, not drawing the attention of males other than your husband, etc. What I wonder about is how does covering your hair with more hair serve as an act of modesty? I could understand using a veil or a "snood" or a bandana and so forth (I live in a Muslim country and see head covering everywhere). But wouldn't a nice wig that looks like real hair have just as much a chance of attracting attention as a woman's real hair?

 

 

This part was answered above .....

[Heather in Neverland]

This part was answered above .....

I read it but I didn't fully understand. This part: "The woman covering her hair will ALWAYS remember SHE is covering her hair and that is the point" was a bit confusing because it made me wonder...

 

If it is about modesty and not drawing attention to yourself then a wig doesn't seem to qualify. I have seen some really nice wigs (way nicer than my own hair!). If it is about following the law to cover your own personal hair and the modesty part is not the issue then a wig makes sense (at least in my brain).

 

I have seen all forms of head coverings in both the Christian and Muslim world that are both lovely and modest at the same time and I could see myself covering for that same reason. I'm just trying to understand the wig aspect of covering.

 

It also doesn't explain why some Jewish women shave their head and then wear a wig?

[YaelAldrich]

Curious...

 

What do you believe about the passages of Scripture that we (Christians) believe refer to Messiah:

 

1) Isaiah 53 - speaks of Messiah being 'wounded for our transgressions,' 'with his stripes we are healed,' etc. I've heard that Orthodox Jews believe this passage to be referring to Israel & her sufferings...but then who is the 'my people' (v.8) for whom 'he' was afflicted?

 

2) Micah 5 - refers to Bethlehem-Ephratah as the city out of whom Messiah would come "yet out of thee shall he come forth that is to be ruler in Israel, whose goings forth have been from of old from everlasting" (v.2)... Do you believe Messiah will come from the city of Bethlehem? If not, to what is this verse referring?

 

3) Daniel 9 - "from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the time of Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks...and after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself..." Are you familiar with the belief that this passage is explaining the time of Messiah's presentation of himself? That it would be 483 years (69 sets of seven years) from the command to restore/rebuild the streets & walls of Jerusalem?

 

These are 'key' passages that we would use to prove from the scriptures that Jesus is the Messiah (His sufferings and substitutionary death, His birth and eternality, and the timing of His presenting Himself as King... I'm not at ALL trying to be antagonistic here, and I know you disagree with my interpretation of these passages. Just wondering if you could give an Orthodox understanding of these verses. 

 

Thanks for the thread! :)

 

I will after I say this piece explain (to the best of my ability) the three verses above.  But let me start with this.  In the Jewish idea of a messiah/messianic time, there will be no more war or fighting, everyone will recognize G-d as L-rd and Supreme Commander-in Chief :) , there will be the reinstatement of ritual sacrifices, the dead will arise from the ground in soul form.  I'm looking around -- don't see any of that.  So to Jews, the Messiah's not been here yet. The messiah is also a guy, a person, not a God-man amalgam.  People can't come back from the dead.  Not the really, really dead kind.  The Messiah also comes once, not twice or five times.  So I say to the Jewish perspective, the Messiah has not come yet.  We pray he does (notice it's not a "He" with a capital letter H.  He will have no divinity about him.  He will be a king, a flesh and blood king.) every day, multiple times a day.

 

OK, now onto the three verses.  Now I am reading them in Hebrew, the language the (Jewish) Bible was written.  I'm guessing you are not.  Your Bible is a translation from the Hebrew to the Greek (forced out of 70 rabbis- the Septuagint), then from the Greek to Latin and from Latin to your language.  That many translations can make some "telephone game" problems even without any deliberate mistranslations.  

 

Isaiah 53: The whole passage speaks about Israel.  My people are the Jews.  All of these prophets are chastising the Jews for their many, many sins throughout that entire time period.  It  must be rather clear to the Rabbis elucidating the text as there is only one commentary on the word "ami" my people.  The RaDaK says, all peoples and the people said here, because of their sins there came to them a potch (Yiddish for smack/hit), there was not sin in their midst.  All the verbs there are in the plural.  

 

Micah 5:  The Messiah can come from anywhere.  Probably Brooklyn since we have a lot of Jews there. :) The Rabbinic Commentaries (Rashi, Radak, Metzudas David, Even HaEzer) all say that since King David came from Bethlehem this is why it's mentioned and important.  Now the RaDak (he tends to the most "out-there" regular commentary) continues that Bet-Lehem, an important city in the territory of Yehuda and from Shevet (tribe) Yehuda (the people inherited a section of land and in it is Bet-lehem), will come Melech HaMoshiach (King Messiah).  And Jews think that the messiah will come from the tribe of Yehuda.  So it's no big sign pointing to Jesus.  He's not from Yehudah anyways.  The tribal affiliation of a person comes from their father.  For example, my husband has no Jewish father, so unfortunately he has no tribal affiilation.  Don't know where we will go (tribal-wise)  once the messiah comes -- someone will figure it out!  Likewise, if  Jesus' father was God, then he also has no tribal affiliation.  You don't get to choose or adopt one.  

 

Daniel 9:  Daniel is talking about how (once again!) the Jews have blown it in G-d's eyes and is begging G-d to not do the Ultimate Smackdown.  This prophesy is interrupted by a visit from the Angel Gavriel telling him a time table from which the Jews will repent.  Rashi (12th c. main rabbinical commentary) says this refers to Jerusalem in the time of the first Churban (temple destruction) in the days of King Tzidkiyahu until the second destruction in 70CE.  All the other commentaries talk about how the years are referenced in various places in the Bible and that this prophesy is talking about those current times.  The word "mashiach", annointed one, in that verse (since as you remember I am reading this in the original), according to Rashi is Cyrus (in Jewish lore, the son of Queen Esther and Ahchasverosh) who redeemed the Jews from the first exile in Babylonia to return to Israel.

 

But regardless, please refer back to my first paragraph;  no peace, no Messiah.

[YaelAldrich]

I have a question. I grew up on an area populated by many Jews (Palm Beach County, Florida) and thought everyone grew up playing dreidel in elementary school, lol. Anyway, it is my understanding that Temple refers to THE Temple, and that any other place of worship is a synagogue. Yet, many synagogues are named Temple Such and Such. Am I confused?

 

Never mind, looked it up. I was right, in the sense that Conservative and Orthodox would say only "The Temple" is a Temple. The Reform would call any place of jewish worship a Temple. And most of my friends growing up were Reform, hence my confusion. It always grated on me. Still does. 

Like you found, the Reform movement thinks there is no need for a rebuild Temple and that each of their synagogues is like their temple, so they call them temples.

[YaelAldrich]

And is it true that some Jewish women actually shave their heads and then wear a wig?

Yes, there are some Chassidic women, who after they marry, they have their heads. It is a custom though and only those groups follow through.  They do it so no hair shows and no hair will interfere in their ritual immersion one week after the end of her period.

[YaelAldrich]

Great thread!!! :thumbup:

 

I was wondering what an Orthodox Jew believes happens to a Jew (that is secular) when he dies? Do they believe in heaven and hell, or a different concept to the Christian faith?

We believe that everyone goes through a purgatory -style time after they die during which they are on trial (so to speak) and their merits and non-merits are weighed.  Everybody, secular, Reform, Conservative, whatever have merits.  So this time period never lasts more than 11 months. :)  Then their souls get shuttled off to Heaven (as much as we understand)  where things are good and there is a feast with two of the animals that G-d originally made in the creation of the world, the Leviatan (giant fish like creature) and the Shor ha-bor (mammoth sized cow thing).  This subject is not one of intense study by us common Jews.

 

My rabbi, Cary Friedman,  gives a mashal (a parable) about this Purgatory time and on into Heaven.  You know the UN?  Not everyone there speaks the same language, right?  So there are interpreters giving instant translation so everyone.  The people who have worked on learning Torah and perfecting themselves have a great connection to the interpreters that interpret what G-d is saying to us all in Heaven (since he is the Ultimate Teacher, the classes must be pretty good!).  The people concerned with other things in life will have patchy reception of the G-d-talks since their connection was never strong to begin with and they never worked on themselves.  They have a connection; all people do, but the connection can be better or worse depending on us.  

[YaelAldrich]

Also was wondering why you think it's close to having the Temple built?

 

Is there a general feeling amongst the Jews, or are there certain signs that have been fulfilled lately? Thanx!!!

I don't know if it is close, but as a believing Jew, I must constantly hope it is going to happen any second.  Some Jews think is coming soon as things are so bad on this earth.  Some think it is so close because we are coming up to the year 6000 in the Jewish calendar (we're at 5774).  I don't know; I just await his (the messiah's) arrival!

[mommaduck]

We believe that everyone goes through a purgatory -style time after they die during which they are on trial (so to speak) and their merits and non-merits are weighed.  Everybody, secular, Reform, Conservative, whatever have merits.  So this time period never lasts more than 11 months. :)  Then their souls get shuttled off to Heaven (as much as we understand)  where things are good and there is a feast with two of the animals that G-d originally made in the creation of the world, the Leviatan (giant fish like creature) and the Shor ha-bor (mammoth sized cow thing).  This subject is not one of intense study by us common Jews.

 

My rabbi, Cary Friedman,  gives a mashal (a parable) about this Purgatory time and on into Heaven.  You know the UN?  Not everyone there speaks the same language, right?  So there are interpreters giving instant translation so everyone.  The people who have worked on learning Torah and perfecting themselves have a great connection to the interpreters that interpret what G-d is saying to us all in Heaven (since he is the Ultimate Teacher, the classes must be pretty good!).  The people concerned with other things in life will have patchy reception of the G-d-talks since their connection was never strong to begin with and they never worked on themselves.  They have a connection; all people do, but the connection can be better or worse depending on us.  

 

I was told, by a Jew, that Judaism teaches reincarnation.

[YaelAldrich]

Thanks for answering. :))

 

I used to live near Borough Park, and so would see lots of Orthodox women at the park, etc.  From what I can remember, most would wear 3/4 length skirts (daughters too), 3/4 length shirts, etc.   Are pants totally verboten or does it depend on the community?

 

Also, if a young person decides not live as an Orthodox Jew when they are older (say they want to be Conservative), is there a point where they can make that decision and not be shunned or have repercussions within their own community? (I'm kind of thinking like the Amish…if they leave before they are baptized, it's not such a big deal.)

 

Oh…and a weird thing…. I was reading a book about a certain Orthodox sect, and there was a discussion about why they could or could snot eat a chocolate bar (I think it was Hershey) because of the symbol.  It had maybe an OU and some other chocolates had different symbols (maybe the OK or something else)….and only one was viewed as kashrut.  I know this may sound confusing…but do different communities follow different symbols? Is one viewed as more strict?

Oooh!  Boro Park is a very Chassidic neighborhood.  Spent a little time there, mostly shopping! :)

 

In that community, women don't wear pants except for perhaps bed and exercise after girls turn three or so.  In my very mixed community, there are women who wear pants except to synagogue, women who wear pants to the gym but nowhere else, and women who never wears pants (perhaps under a skirt).

 

If a person goes "off the derech (path)"  at any time, things could be rough for them.  It all depends on the parent-child relationship and communal response.  Some parents will do the tough love thing and some won't; the community may or may not care.  There is a prominent family in my community who has one child off the derech and we met him at a Shabbos (Sabbath) lunch.  He stayed for lunch, made some snarky comments about some Orthodox institutions and left before the after-meal prayers in his car (we don't drive on the Sabbath).  Nice kid but for whatever reason, religious life didn't suit him.  Didn't know he existed as he isn't in the community like their other kids are.  For more insular communities it's harder to get out unscathed as expectations of conformity are higher.  There are numerous groups and organizations in our community to help the family of the kid and the kid themselves if they want to come back into the Orthodox orbit.  There are also (not Orthodox Jewish) organizations to help these kids if they want to get out and stay out to become part of secular society (schooling, general assimilation and the like).

 

The OU is the best known kashut organization but by far not the only one.  There are maybe a thousand companies giving kosher certification worldwide.  Different communities do sometimes use different kosher symbols.  Those people in Boro Park probably won't eat that Hershey bar since the milk not chalav israel, Jewishly supervised milk.  A major Jewish rabbi, Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, ruled that USDA milk is like Jewishly supervised milk so those who abide by his ruling can eat foods made with that milk.  Chassidic people don't abide by this ruling so they won't eat the Hershey bar.  Too bad for them I say (but there is AMAZING Swiss chocolate they can eat, so maybe it's not so bad)!

[YaelAldrich]

I was told, by a Jew, that Judaism teaches reincarnation.

Did the Jew tell you if you have two Jews, there are three opinions?  :driving:

 

Well, so yes, some Jews think there is reincarnation and some don't.  I talked about reincarnation upthread regarding people with special needs....

[Laura in CA]

Yes, Yiddish is very much a living language amongst the Chassidic world (with differing pronunciations/accents depending their ancestry).  It makes me laugh to get mailings asking for money to help Yiddish stay alive -- it IS alive.  I don't speak much, but I would encourage my children to pick up more than I have as the Harvards of the Orthodox world (the top yeshivas in the US and Israel) still use it and so it will be helpful.

 

I haven't read the rest of the thread yet (but I will -- thank you so much for starting this!), but I just want to say that my son is excited about taking Yiddish in college!  He plans to take Yiddish 101 and 102.

 

It was fun hearing Yiddish spoken in the movie Ushpizin; knowing German, I could understand some of it :)

[YaelAldrich]

I haven't read the rest of the thread yet (but I will -- thank you so much for starting this!), but I just want to say that my son is excited about taking Yiddish in college!  He plans to take Yiddish 101 and 102.

 

It was fun hearing Yiddish spoken in the movie Ushpizin; knowing German, I could understand some of it :)

Make sure he visits the Chabad of Berkeley. Have him meet Rabbi Ferris; tell him Yael Aldrich says hi!  He was my first post-college employer - good times!  Used to table in the Pit for Chabad...

[YaelAldrich]

Are you Chabad?

 

Regardless of the answer, is there any way you'd be willing to contribute your opinion about the Chabad messianic thing?

Nope, I am not Chabad.  If I were I would have already mentioned the Lubavitcher Rebbe by now! ;)

 

Chabad is a Chassidic group.  They differ in that they go out of their enclaves to do outreach to Jews and non-Jews.  If you live in a medium to large town/city, you may have seen them.  The men wear black Borsalino hats, white buttondown shirts, black jackets and pants, and big, honkin' beards.  The women are usually too gorgeous/glamorous for words and trailing a bunch of kids after them.  They are well-known for their Menorah lighting ceremonies and that Chabad telethon in CA. :)

 

So to your question:

 

Chabad had a rebbe (rabbi/spiritual head).  He was thought of by Chabadniks (and many others) that their rebbe was the Moshiach (messiah) - yes, THAT messiah.  He died almost twenty years ago.  After his death, one group of followers thought their rebbe was going to come back from the dead and be the Moshiach (sound familiar?)  Another group thought he wasn't even dead (!!).  These ideas are NOT part of mainstream Judaism at all.  These groups sort-of broke off from the main group and there are lawsuits and such until today. There is an uneasy detente between the groups as families can encompass all three ideologies.

 

They are not the only rebbe-less Chassidic group; there are the Breslov group. They only had one rebbe and he died over 200 years ago.  They keep on trucking and try to visit the grave of their rebbe in Uman, Russia to be close to him. 

[YaelAldrich]

Yes :). I should probably have mentioned I am a Jew, living in an Eastern European country in which a mere 500 Jews are left. Chabad turned up here a few years ago. It has been an... interesting experience. They will neither confirm nor deny they believe the rebbe is moshiach, which leads me to believe they do. I could be wrong. 

They probably do.  The younger the Chabadnik, especially if they are Israeli or newish to observance, the more likely they are Meshichists (one of the breakaway groups).

 

I hope you are safe wherever you are!

 

Kol tuv,

Yael

[milovany]

Xtianity is idolatry for a Jew. 

 

We each have free will, and I do not presume to understand anyone else's spiritual journey, or what challenges or life situations might have led them to a particular place.  I would respect a person's positive intentions, and wish them the best... that s/he find his/her soul's truth.  I do believe that, for a Jew, that truth is in Torah and our people, but I also believe that we each have our own, perhaps complicated path, to walk and I can't know why this, seeming detour, might be part of something important to that person's growth and fulfillment of their purpose in the world.

 

re: atheism: Being Jewish is about one's soul.  One can't stop being Jewish, one's status as a Jew isn't determined by faith or action, it is etched in the soul.  A Jew can believe (or not believe) anything, and s/he is still Jewish.  One can be excised from the community, but that is rare, and complicated, and still doesn't change one's soul.

 

Thank you, Eliana. 

 

[Forget-Me-Not]

This is a fascinating thread! Thanks to those answering!

 

When you speak of a covenant, are you referring to the Abrahamic covenant or something else?

 

I read the article you linked about the Messiahs, but I'm not sure I followed all of it :). So you don't believe in a Messiah that will atone for sins?

 

Please forgive me if my questions are very ignorant. I'm struggling to keep up with the jargon here :D

[YaelAldrich]

Baruch Ha-Shem you showed up Eliana!  I <3 U!

 

[SeaConquest]

Eliana, if it isn't too personal, I am curious if you grew up in a frum family or if you are a BT? I appreciate you sharing your learning and wisdom in this thread.

[Laura in CA]

Make sure he visits the Chabad of Berkeley. Have him meet Rabbi Ferris; tell him Yael Aldrich says hi!  He was my first post-college employer - good times!  Used to table in the Pit for Chabad...

 

I just showed him your post -- thank you! He is finding this whole thread interesting. :) 

 

These boards never cease amaze me. Thank you to everyone who has posted in this thread!

[Hunter's Moon]

I'm a BT (Baalas Teshuava - literally mistress of returning, someone who didn't grow up observant, the masculine is Baal Teshuva)

 

I started thinking through philosophical and theological issues when I was around ten, and starting trying to be observant around bas mitzvah age - I had a lot to learn, but the awareness of Torah miSinai clicked then. 

 

I have little learning and less wisdom, but what I have I love to share, and talking and sharing and questioning and then heading back to the texts is how I learn best, so talking things through helps me pull together all the pieces I've read here or studied there and see it all better, so thank you, everyone, for all your questions!

 

I just wanted to say that I always love seeing you post in these kinds of threads! Not only are you very knowledgable, but also so well-spoken. 

 

I cannot think of any specific questions at this moment, but I am enjoying reading along. 

[YaelAldrich]

Don't let Eliana fool you, people.  Smart as a whip and ready to rumble!

 

Listen to the song on her sig -- it's one of  my favorite songs.  We sing it at the Third Meal (Seuda Shlishis) on Shabbos.

[YaelAldrich]

Can someone explain what all of this means please? [i'm on tablet and if this had been explained already please excuse and ignore.]

see post 88.

[sheryl]

Why would anyone want to become Jewish??!?!  Close yourself from so much in the world in terms of good food, good relationships, good experiences and so much more?  

 

Now, that said, I converted to Orthodox Judaism about 20 years ago.  Yes, I consider myself CRAY-CRAY.  But I also wouldn't want it any other way.

 

Noachides are true troopers in that they have little in the way of networks or communities unlike Orthodox Judaism.  You are right; there isn't so much for them.  Mostly because most Jews still primarily think of their own (due to the history of Jews among the Gentiles) and not about the fine and upstanding Noachides out there.  Now there are exceptions.  Some Chabads make a home for the Noachide population amongst their Jewish communities (like my friends the Ederys in Japan).  I wish we Jews were in a good enough place spiritually and  physically we could encourage their growth to a real community.

 

I think that the rebuilding of the Third Temple (may it be rebuilt swiftly and soon), will make this happen.

 

But in today's reality, people who are cray-cray enough will try to convert since there is so little for Noachides.  Some will succeed and some will not.  I wish them all the best.

what did you convert from?  thanks. 

[Juniper]

Ok, I have a question, but it is one that has been already hinted at earlier in the thread. I will try to expand on this particular issue that I have always had trouble wrapping my head around ever since I have come to know you wonderful ladies. :)

 

Let's take myself for an example. I was raised in a non- religious house. When I was very young 4-5 I remember feeling a sense of desperation for a religion, a faith walk...something. I remember pulling on my mother's arm with tears streaming down my face saying, "But, what religion are we?! We must believe something!!!!!" Nothing bad had happened to me, I wasn't be left out or picked on. The truth was I simply wanted to know God and know how to live a life in connection with him. This never went away and deepened as I grew up. It was not enough to simply be spiritual.....I wanted a life, a home, a discipline, a practice, a relationship....all of it and more than I can put onto words. 

 

I considered Judaism early on, but had no access to it....not like Christianity. Obviously, I have continued to search, seek and deepen my relationship with God....while wrestling with some issues in mainstream Christianity that led me towards Eastern Orthodoxy. The western understanding of Hell and Sin did not resonated for me....as well as other factors.

Here is where I get confused in regards to Judaism. Where would I fit? Noachide I do not think would be enough for me, but I also do not feel like....Ugh.....I don't know how to put this.....like converting would be welcomed by the Jewish community either. I realize if it was that important to me it should not matter, so it is not quite that either. 

What is God's purpose for someone like me? Someone who needs more than to just be a good person? Needs to study, embrace and be a part of community? Needs to walk out her faith in prayer, ritual, and devotion. In the last 4 years that I have been reading these threads that is the one thing I struggle with understanding. :(

 

According to Jewish understanding what is God's will for the non-Jew who wants more......?   Sorry, I do not know how to phrase this better. ;)

[YaelAldrich]

Since you write G-d, and I *think* I understand why you do that, does it bother you, or kind of turn your stomach a bit to see it written out?

 

How do you pray? Do you have any kind of ritual/formal prayers? Such as we Muslims have Salah/salat?

 

 

I/we write G-d because I/we try to remember the holiness of G-d.  Some Orthodox Jews write it out since in English you can (to many O Jews).

 

We Jews ideally pray three times a day (morning, afternoon, night); men who are pious certainly do so.  Many women attempt to pray twice a  day, many once a day and some just some obligatory prayers since we are so darn busy!  There are additional prayers for the Sabbath and holidays.

[YaelAldrich]

what did you convert from?  thanks. 

Oh, I was raised in an Independent, Bible-believing, some good number of other descriptions Baptist church.  Good people, traditional believers.  During my boarding school years (Hr and Sr yrs in HS) I went to a Southern Baptist church with some dabbling in various Black Christian churches (I am Black and Korean), likewise wonderful people.  I started my journey into Judaism in college.  So I've been Jewish for almost 20 years now.  Couldn't imagine life any other way, but I'll continue that in the next post....

[YaelAldrich]

... part of our repertoire (along with put a "________" in the pot, stir it up nice and hot, get it ready for Shabbos, for Shabbos when we had a mob of little ones... a slightly less elevated addition... :)

That is also a great song we sing (but not usually at the table!) :D

 

[eternalsummer]

Is there a disdain or separation (covert/unconscious, even) among orthodox jews for converts?  In reform it didn't seem like there was much concern about whether one was Jewish by birth, but I wonder if orthodox is different in this regard?

 

ETA: I ask because in my experience Judaism is different than Christianity in this regard - Jews don't seek out converts; there is no overwhelming mission to spread the word or anything like that, and (I heard) that when you request to convert a rabbi must refuse you three times before accepting you just to make sure you're certain.

[YaelAldrich]

Ok, I have a question, but it is one that has been already hinted at earlier in the thread. I will try to expand on this particular issue that I have always had trouble wrapping my head around ever since I have come to know you wonderful ladies. :)

 

Let's take myself for an example. I was raised in a non- religious house. When I was very young 4-5 I remember feeling a sense of desperation for a religion, a faith walk...something. I remember pulling on my mother's arm with tears streaming down my face saying, "But, what religion are we?! We must believe something!!!!!" Nothing bad had happened to me, I wasn't be left out or picked on. The truth was I simply wanted to know God and know how to live a life in connection with him. This never went away and deepened as I grew up. It was not enough to simply be spiritual.....I wanted a life, a home, a discipline, a practice, a relationship....all of it and more than I can put onto words. 

 

I considered Judaism early on, but had no access to it....not like Christianity. Obviously, I have continued to search, seek and deepen my relationship with God....while wrestling with some issues in mainstream Christianity that led me towards Eastern Orthodoxy. The western understanding of Hell and Sin did not resonated for me....as well as other factors.

 

Here is where I get confused in regards to Judaism. Where would I fit? Noachide I do not think would be enough for me, but I also do not feel like....Ugh.....I don't know how to put this.....like converting would be welcomed by the Jewish community either. I realize if it was that important to me it should not matter, so it is not quite that either. 

 

What is God's purpose for someone like me? Someone who needs more than to just be a good person? Needs to study, embrace and be a part of community? Needs to walk out her faith in prayer, ritual, and devotion. In the last 4 years that I have been reading these threads that is the one thing I struggle with understanding. :(

 

According to Jewish understanding what is God's will for the non-Jew who wants more......?   Sorry, I do not know how to phrase this better. ;)

As I said in the beginning of this thread, I converted to Orthodox Judaism almost 20 years ago.  You can convert, but if you have family now (which I guess you do) unless everybody in your family hops on board, no Rabbi will take you.  :(  If you still believe Jesus is the Messiah and part of the Godhead, you don't want to convert, they REALLY won't take you.  

 

Converts are accepted in most communities.  I have counseled dozens of converts (and convert wannabes).  A successful convert learns as much as s/he can and then actively seek mentors/faux family members and BECOME with every cell in your body a JEW.  Talk like a Jew, walk like a Jew, eat like a Jew, everything like a Jew.  You can take the you parts of you and put them in but your new essence needs to be of a Jew one million percent.  The ones who flame out can't let go of themselves.  It's not always a easy road - watching everyone else going away for the major holidays (usually adult kids go to a set of parents even into their 40s), not knowing what to do, people asking where you are from (Jewish Geography), but if you really, really want it, it can be done.  

 

Please feel free to PM if you want to talk more.  :grouphug:

[YaelAldrich]

Is there a disdain or separation (covert/unconscious, even) among orthodox jews for converts?  In reform it didn't seem like there was much concern about whether one was Jewish by birth, but I wonder if orthodox is different in this regard?

 

ETA: I ask because in my experience Judaism is different than Christianity in this regard - Jews don't seek out converts; there is no overwhelming mission to spread the word or anything like that, and (I heard) that when you request to convert a rabbi must refuse you three times before accepting you just to make sure you're certain.

Sometimes there is separation or disdain, but mostly it is a scary/annoying amount of curiosity.  A lot of "So, nu, where are frooooom?".  Jews (especially O Jews) play Jewish Geography, a who do you know game.  If you are new to the whole thing,  You sit there like an idiot and the other person immediately knows you are either a BT (ba'at tshuva - a Jewish person who decided to be an O Jew/returned to O practice) or a convert.  Twenty years in, I can play the game with the best of them and know how to cover up any convert tracks if I don't want to be interviewed.  Most O Jews are enthralled by someone who converted, so sometimes you feel like a circus animal.  I had more disdain when I wasn't Jewish as they thought I was just going through the motions for my nice Jewish boy.

 

Converts can't marry Cohanim (the priestly class), but more or less they have the same rules as any other Jew.  BTW, there are specific laws from G-d to love the convert a bunch and not to remind him/her of their past so as not to embarrass them...  

[YaelAldrich]

ha ha we disagree! :)

[YaelAldrich]

 

 

[side note: At various times some of my kids have gone to a local Chabad school, my eldest lives in a Chabad community on the East Coast (and is, since her marriage, Chabad herself), and I have never encountered off-key haskafos (philosophies).  it is still around, but not very common]

And I disagree here too. :)  Respectfully though.  As I've been around the world, I think it is still extremely prevalent and a good chunk of Chabad, more Israeli Chabad than the States but here too.  My best friends in the world are Yechi-niks (break off group).  I'm as Litvish (not hippy dippy, spiritual)  as they come (lol), but we work well together.

[YaelAldrich]

See?!?  The two Jews, three opinion thing rears it's head!  :lol:

[eternalsummer]

ha ha we disagree! :)

now one of you needs to have a second opinion so we can get 2 jews, 3 opinions :)

[eternalsummer]

How would you describe the sense of place that the orthodox jewish community feels, in terms of relevance/ position/role in the world, both contemporarily and with a historical view?