Ask an Orthodox Christian

[Alenee]

My conversion is tied closely to Milovany's.  Having known her from another board for several years and discussed faith issues, my curiosity was piqued when she began her conversion, albeit in a negative way.  I wasn't looking for a new church but I was always interested in learning what others believe and so I read tons on different faiths.  I had been catechized (Baptist church) to believe that anything RC or anything that looked like RC was heretical.  So as I began learning about the EO, I was looking more to tear it down and show its falsehood.  Fortunately for me, God is patient.  I ultimately prayed that if I was wrong, would God open my eyes.  And He did!  Everything that the EO believe became very clear as being the truth and that the catechism I'd received about icons, Mary, sin, Heaven, prayer, the Saints, etc. had been what was really false.  It was a HUGE leap for me but once I learned the truth, there was no going back.  I couldn't have chosen the RC because like others, I could see the changes in theology over time within the church.  This is not the case with EO. 

[Kathryn]

If you were a convert I'd love to hear why you chose EO over, say, RC.  I'd also like to hear more about the theological and metaphysical differences, if anyone can point me in a certain direction?  DH and I are considering RC but I want to know as much as possible. :)

  

 

Here's why we chose EO:  Ultimately it comes down to believing that the EO church is the original church of the two; we think it is the one that is most like the NT and early church both in theology and practice.  To us, it seemed like a lot of things were added to the Catholic faith that changed earlier theology (things like the Immaculate conception, purgatory, the authority of the pope, the concept of original sin, etc.).  A practical example has been commented on both in this thread and the other one:  In the Orthodox Church, when babies are baptized, they're also chrismated (they call it confirmation) and they received the Holy Eucharist at the same time.  These sacraments were all tied into together.  That has changed in the RC church to where children are baptized, but not confirmed until later and not receiving the Eucharist until later. It seems to have to do with an "age of reason," which we don't have. 

 

We also don't believe historical documents and events support the supremacy of the Pope.  For example, the ecumenical councils were attended by all patriarchates and they all had one vote -- they were equals.  A related issue is the filioque -- the Catholic Church changed the wording of the Nicene Creed after its form had been agreed upon at an economical council.  At the same council where its form was agreed upon by all the bishops, it was also stated that no changes could be made to it without a consensus of all the bishops from the different areas.  Well, it was changed without that consensus.  

My answer would be much like what milovany said here. I also agree about appreciating the Orthodox stance of leaving mysteries as mysteries and not trying to explain them rationally. And I like that while there is a common "rule," it is very individual depending on your circumstances and your priest with things like fasting, birth control, etc.

[Juniper]

If you were a convert I'd love to hear why you chose EO over, say, RC.  I'd also like to hear more about the theological and metaphysical differences, if anyone can point me in a certain direction?  DH and I are considering RC but I want to know as much as possible. :)

This is always a difficult thing for me to answer, in regards to comparing the two. No matter what, when we convert to one over the other we are using our best judgement to apply more or less value to individual differences between the two churches. Once you have a good grasp of their similarities it comes down to evaluating the differences. 

 

In the broadest sense, for me, I chose EO because it struck the right balance for me between exquisite depth of wisdom and stunning simplicity. There were theological paths, within the RC, I just could not make myself follow as a matter of church Dogma (Immaculate Conception of Mary and its relation to Original Sin being one). 

 

When it comes down to it Roman Catholicism was too complicated for me. I don't mean too intellectual, the Orthodox church has some great minds, but too "busy." Sorry, I am lacking in ability to convey my thoughts on this. 

 

I will say this. It would be so much easier for me to convert to RC and I have been very tempted. There is a great RC church within walking distance of my house (which is saying a lot since I live rather remote) where we could make friends and have an immediate community. The nearest Orthodox church is 1hr away and very small. 

 

Truth is I can't do it. Really it is no longer a matter of theology. I have seen Saints in all Christian paths. It is that the Divine Liturgy is medicine for my soul. The church year continues to bring me into layers of healing, peace, and love. For me there is no other way. 

[Alenee]

I also want to add (so that those reading don't think my former post was a bashing of RC in any way) that though I could not accept RC after looking at both them and the EO, I have a profound respect for the RC that I never had before.  I used to have a lot of anger (maybe from my former catechism?) but after it was all said and done (research and finally, conversion), I found rest and peace where the RC is concerned. 

[mommaduck]

I hesitated in answering also. It does involve comparing the two and some of my greatest supporting friends are RC. I love them and respect them dearly. Like Juniper said, it would be a lot easier for me to go RC. I'd have more people, more parishes, more activities, more a lot of things. It would also be intellectually dishonest of me. At the best, becoming EO has helped me understand and respect the RC better, but also clarifies that I'm right where I should be in the EO.

[Juniper]

As far as I understand it, Pasha (obviously from the Hebrew Pesach) means Passover, while Easter is called Uskrs (here where we live, an East European country), but Russians also call it Pasha? 

 

I also understand some Christians fast on Wednesdays and Fridays, and before Easter. What is the origin of that tradition?

 

I like this article about the Lenten period of fasting from a historical perspective. The footnotes are a great resource. 

http://saintsilouan.org/calendar/lent/lent-history/

 

Yes, we fast Wed and Fri as well as three major fasts and a few other special days. Here is a good overview. http://orthodoxwiki.org/Fasting

[Greta]

 

I also understand some Christians fast on Wednesdays and Fridays, and before Easter. What is the origin of that tradition?

 

Christ instructed His followers to fast in the Sermon on the Mount, and in Matthew 9:15.  We fast on Wednesdays in recognition of Christ's betrayal, and on Fridays in recognition of His crucifixion.  This practice was even mentioned in the Didache, which was written late in the first century or early in the second. 

 

I recently listened to a very good podcast that talked about the history and development of the Lenten fast.  If you'd be interested, you can find it in the iTunes store (for free) or here:  http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/orthodoxylive/orthodoxy_live_lenten_special

 

ETA:  The podcast mentions that in the earliest days of the church, a VERY strict fast (no food or water at all) was followed for 40 hours prior to Pascha.  But that practice got changed to fasting from meat and dairy for 40 days.  The number 40 has Biblical significance in the story of the Israelites wandering in the desert for 40 years, Christ fasting and praying for 40 days prior to the devil tempting Him, etc.

[mommaduck]

Fasting doesn't mean doing without food, ftr. On Wed and Fri, we fast from meat. During Lent, we start one week by eliminating meat (the day before is called Meatfare). The next week we eliminate dairy (the day before is called Cheesefare). Then comes Great Lent where we go on a strict fast. There are different types of fasts. The order of elimination is: meat, dairy, fish (with backbones, not other seafood), and wine & oil (some read this as no alcohol and no oil; other read it as no wine and no olive oil, but other alcohols and oils are fine). It's not a big deal. Not everyone follows it. It's considered a discipline, but it does take getting used to if you decide to follow it. So, all that to say, we DO eat. We just eat differently. Another thing that I've been told: naturally, you don't want to take milk from a young child...let them have milk! Just don't give them a milkshake ;) That is a form of fasting...simplicity is SUPPOSED to be the key, not necessarily elimination. I know that's all clear as mud, but that's what I love about the EO; there is room for movement/economia; it's about the spirit of the law, NOT the letter...it's NOT meant to be a hardship or else it's negated it's purpose of being a help.

[milovany]

I also want to add (so that those reading don't think my former post was a bashing of RC in any way) that though I could not accept RC after looking at both them and the EO, I have a profound respect for the RC that I never had before.  I used to have a lot of anger (maybe from my former catechism?) but after it was all said and done (research and finally, conversion), I found rest and peace where the RC is concerned. 

 

Agreeing with this wholeheartedly.  I have become SO much less judgmental of other faiths since becoming Orthodox.  Regarding the RC specifically I, like Alenee, just used to think negative about anything Catholic.  I was of the "There might be some Christians in the Catholic Church -- IF they've received Christ as their Lord and Savior" understanding.  I used to think the LDS church was just whackadoodle.  Now I can more clearly see where they're coming from and I respect it.  I don't agree with their theologies/conclusions, but I understand how they are functioning from the foundation that is their Church. That is part of what drew us to our conversion.  We were SO tired of trying to figure out Scripture and the practice of the faith on our own (because not only was it exhausting, and not only did we see things diametrically opposed to what we believed within Christianity, but our own views on different things changed over time).  We began to see that the foundation of the faith is the church, and its authority in the life of a believer. 

[milovany]

{Oops!  Double post.}

[Greta]

If you were a convert I'd love to hear why you chose EO over, say, RC.  I'd also like to hear more about the theological and metaphysical differences, if anyone can point me in a certain direction?  DH and I are considering RC but I want to know as much as possible. :)

 

Mine was very personal and particular to me, so I'm not sure how helpful it is, and that's why I hesitated at first to respond.  But here's the short version.  I prayed for guidance, direction, and help.  God sent me to the Orthodox Church.  So for me it wasn't really a choice between EO and RC, or EO and anything else.  It was simply EO.  I asked.  He answered.  I obeyed.

 

But I will say that becoming EO has really deepened my understanding of and appreciation for the Catholic faith.  I hate to admit this about myself, because this was very much my own personal failing, but I think that before when I thought about the RCC the "scandals" and controversies were first in my thoughts.  I don't see it that way now at all.  I see the beauty in the RCC, I see my RC friends who are living out their faith with great love and wisdom and who have been such a help and a wonderful example to me, and I am saddened that our respective churches ever parted ways.

[PrincessMommy]

I hesitated in answering also. It does involve comparing the two and some of my greatest supporting friends are RC. I love them and respect them dearly. Like Juniper said, it would be a lot easier for me to go RC. I'd have more people, more parishes, more activities, more a lot of things. It would also be intellectually dishonest of me. At the best, becoming EO has helped me understand and respect the RC better, but also clarifies that I'm right where I should be in the EO.

 

I completely agree.  I don't want this thread to de-evolve into what is wrong with other traditions.    It would have been so much easier to be RC for me too.  There's several parishes within 5 mins of my house, there are many Catholic homeschoolers in my area, it's way more accessible than the EO church for outsiders - which is the rest of my family, including my dh.    The list goes on.   However, Papal authority and the Immaculate conception were problematic for me.   But, in the end, the EO church chose me.   Although it wasn't easy at the beginning, worship is profound in a way that I cannot describe.  The best way I can is by repeating what the envoys of Vladimir the Great said after he sent them out to study the religions of all his neighbors.  They looked at many different religions (Christian and not) and ended up at Hagia Sofia.  Writing back they said:   "We knew not whether we were in heaven or on earth, for surely there is no such splendour or beauty anywhere upon earth. We cannot describe it to you, only this we know, that God dwells there among humans, and that their service surpasses the worship of all other places. For we cannot forget that beauty"  

[PrincessMommy]

Christ instructed His followers to fast in the Sermon on the Mount, and in Matthew 9:15.  We fast on Wednesdays in recognition of Christ's betrayal, and on Fridays in recognition of His crucifixion.  This practice was even mentioned in the Didache, which was written late in the first century or early in the second. 

 

I recently listened to a very good podcast that talked about the history and development of the Lenten fast.  If you'd be interested, you can find it in the iTunes store (for free) or here:  http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/orthodoxylive/orthodoxy_live_lenten_special

 

ETA:  The podcast mentions that in the earliest days of the church, a VERY strict fast (no food or water at all) was followed for 40 hours prior to Pascha.  But that practice got changed to fasting from meat and dairy for 40 days.  The number 40 has Biblical significance in the story of the Israelites wandering in the desert for 40 years, Christ fasting and praying for 40 days prior to the devil tempting Him, etc.

 

every week is a mini-holy week.  Christ's betrayal (always to remind ourselves to be watchful - that it could be us betraying Christ) and his death on Friday.   Sunday's is a celebration of the Resurrection.

 

Interestingly, the Jews fasted on Tues. and Thurs.  We kept the fast but switched it to Weds & Friday.

[umsami]

Are your services in Russian or Greek, or is English the language of worship?

 

Also…weird question…but do you stand the entire time for your service? I remember going to a Russian Orthodox wedding, and I think we stood the entire time (it's been many years, though.)

[milovany]

I completely agree.  I don't want this thread to de-evolve into what is wrong with other traditions....

 

Please Lord! 

 

[PrincessMommy]

Are your services in Russian or Greek, or is English the language of worship?

 

Also…weird question…but do you stand the entire time for your service? I remember going to a Russian Orthodox wedding, and I think we stood the entire time (it's been many years, though.)

 

Mine is all in English.  My jurisdiction is Orthodox church in America - which has it's roots in Russia.  My daughter goes to a Russian Orthodox church, but the services are also in English.    Of courst, that is not the case everywhere, but most parishes have been slowly switching over the last 20yrs.

 

We have pews because our church is a former Methodist church.  It hate them - they are too close together and I'm not tiny... so the back of my legs hit the pew.  We stand for the service, with many people (esp. older folks & kids) sitting during certain times.  The majority of the time we all stand.

[milovany]

Are your services in Russian or Greek, or is English the language of worship?

 

Also…weird question…but do you stand the entire time for your service? I remember going to a Russian Orthodox wedding, and I think we stood the entire time (it's been many years, though.)

 

Typically in the language of the congregation.  You'll find a lot of English-speaking parishes in America, but also Greek, Russian, Serbian, etc. depending on the makeup of the congregants. 

 

As to standing, the majority of the time, yes. It's said "It's never wrong to stand for worship," but there are also times when it's okay to sit, too.  Some of this might vary by the small-t traditions of the local parish.  At a wedding that might include a lot of non-Orthodox, I'd think chairs would be provided for those not used to it.  We've gone to several weddings like this.  There are chairs up front for family members and other chairs scattered about for other attendees. It is polite to stand when it's clear that everyone is standing (for example, when it comes to the time of the reading of the Gospel, there's a general rustling as anyone sitting stands up -- it's polite to also stand at this time).

 

[Kathryn]

Are your services in Russian or Greek, or is English the language of worship?

 

Also…weird question…but do you stand the entire time for your service? I remember going to a Russian Orthodox wedding, and I think we stood the entire time (it's been many years, though.)

That depends on jurisdiction and parish. I attend a Greek parish and ours is 50/50 Greek and English but I know of some nearby that are almost entirely Greek or almost entirely English.

 

As for standing, American Greek churches tend to have pews and we sit about 20% of the time (during epistle reading, homily, and petitions). We do have a few immigrant congregants who stand the entire time. I believe other jurisdictions tend to stand the entire time.

[Jennay]

A little known aspect of Orthodoxy is that there is an approved Western Rite that is fully in communion with the rest of Orthodoxy.  Often other Orthodox forget about us :) The theology is the same, but Western Rite parishes use a Western Liturgy.  This is seen as a restoration of the time when the Church was one - both East and West - with the same beliefs but different Liturgies and some different practices.  There are Western Rite parishes within the Antiochian Archdiocese and in ROCOR (Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia).  Here is a wonderful article discussing the Western Rite by Bishop Basil. 

http://www.antiochian.org/node/18318  

I converted to Orthodoxy in 2005, along with my DH.  We didn't start out looking for a Western Rite parish, but it's where God placed us.  We also love the Eastern Rite and enjoy attending services at Eastern Rite parishes when we are out of town or can't get to a Feast day service at out own parish.  Our parish is made up of converts from all backgrounds (Anglican, RC, Baptist, Buddhist, etc) as well as cradle Eastern Rite Orthodox who visited our parish and decided to stay :)

Orthodoxy is Orthodoxy regardless of the rite.

 

[mommaduck]

Are your services in Russian or Greek, or is English the language of worship?

 

Also…weird question…but do you stand the entire time for your service? I remember going to a Russian Orthodox wedding, and I think we stood the entire time (it's been many years, though.)

 

My first parish was a mix of Greek and English with the Homily in English unless it was midweek and a special occasion for the Greeks, then it was all in Greek. (GOA)

 

Second parish was all in English. (OCA switched over to ROCOR)

 

Third parish is a mix of English, Greek, and Slavonic. The Homily is in English. Most of the midweek services are in English. (ROCOR...Greek priest, Russian jurisdiction, mixed parish)

 

 

[Greta]

My parish has services in English, except for one liturgy per month in Slavonic.

 

We sit during the homily, but stand for the rest of the service. Those who are elderly, sick, or just not used to it yet are always welcome to sit.

[Juniper]

Are your services in Russian or Greek, or is English the language of worship?

 

Also…weird question…but do you stand the entire time for your service? I remember going to a Russian Orthodox wedding, and I think we stood the entire time (it's been many years, though.)

The church we were baptized in was Antiochian Orthodox which meant a mix of English, Persian and Arabic. We stood most of the service.

 

Now, we are in a Greek Orthodox church with a Romanian priest. This means the service is primarily in heavily accented English with Greek and Romanian mixed in. We sit quite a bit more in our Greek parish. 

[TianXiaXueXiao]

If you were a convert I'd love to hear why you chose EO over, say, RC.  I'd also like to hear more about the theological and metaphysical differences, if anyone can point me in a certain direction?  DH and I are considering RC but I want to know as much as possible. :)

 

I was raised under the umbrella of New Age metaphysics that incorporated Christian Science as the spine of our religious beliefs along with Self-Realization (Paramahansa Yogananda), Daoism, and other brands of eastern mysticism. Once I reached adulthood, I dropped the Christian Science element and tended more towards Daoism, but I deeply longed for the love of Christ that just isn't prevalent in Daoism. All denominations of Christianity were pretty foreign to me, but I spent a good 20 plus years visiting churches and reading about everything that ranged from Baptist and Pentecostal to Unitarian Universalist to Quaker Friends Meetings and pretty much everything in between, except Catholicism. I had never attended a Catholic Mass or anything like that because it was ingrained in me from birth that Catholicism was corrupt and backward. I had a dear friend during all those years who also identified as "spiritual but not religious," and he strongly adhered to the ideology within  A Course in Miracles (which I could never get), but he LOVED to attend Vespers services at our local EO parish. Over the years, he and I had many long discussions on spirituality and metaphysics and he knew me very well. He would often encourage me to go with him to a Vespers service, saying he thought I belonged there. My house was right next door to the only EO church in our town and I was not interested in the slightest because I thought it was just a type of Catholic church. Then a couple years ago, my dear friend died after a long illness. He had become very good friends with the priest of the EO parish that he frequently invited me to. About a month after his passing, I decided to go to a Vespers service as a way to be closer to my friend and to see if this priest was really as wonderful as my friend thought. That night was one of the most moving and pivotal moments in my life. The way the light streamed through the windows catching the rising tendrils of incense, the reverent chanting of the psalms, the prostrations, the angelic voices of the choir, the beauty of the icons, all of it was mesmerizing! I had never encountered anything so beautiful in any church or temple in all my travels. After the service we were invited to go down stairs for a short introduction to EO from the priest. He spoke with us for maybe 10 minutes and said he had the perfect book for me if I wanted to come back on Sunday for Liturgy. That Sunday after Liturgy (which, again, was unlike any Sunday service I had ever encountered and was overwhelming in its beauty, solemnity, and reverence), the priest loaned me the book, Christ the Eternal Tao. I have been hooked ever since. I now have a much greater appreciation for Roman Catholicism and frequently listen to EWTN, but I was led to Orthodoxy and it was here that I found the fulfillment of many of my life-long beliefs. Once I walked through the doors of my now parish for the first time, I just knew I was where I belonged, so I can't really say that there was a reason to chose EO over RC. Finding the Orthodox Church was never part of my plan. I was perfectly content to go on being "spiritual but not religious," but now there is no reason for that.

 

Not that I am very well-versed in RC theology, but from what I do know, the doctrines that make it not coherent with my beliefs would be the Immaculate Conception of Mary, Papal Primacy, Original Sin, and Purgatory.

[TianXiaXueXiao]

Thanks for that, TWells! That was really interesting to read. 

 

I wanted to ask you about this: 

 

So, you don't believe in immaculate conception at all? Is that a personal thing or an EO thing? Can you elaborate? 

 

Hopefully someone will correct me if I am wrong, but to my understanding the doctrine of Immaculate Conception sets the Virgin Mother apart from humanity in that she is completely without stain of "original sin," which would make her more "super-human" than simply human.

 

In Orthodoxy, we believe Mary to be human in all aspects, making her Son, fully Man and fully God, at once.

 

ETA: This is both personal belief and an EO thing. :)

[Kathryn]

Thanks for that, TWells! That was really interesting to read. 

 

I wanted to ask you about this: 

 

So, you don't believe in immaculate conception at all? Is that a personal thing or an EO thing? Can you elaborate? 

 

Orthodox do not believe in the Catholic doctrine of immaculate conception.

[Kathryn]

Hopefully someone will correct me if I am wrong, but to my understanding the doctrine of Immaculate Conception sets the Virgin Mother apart from humanity in that she is completely without stain of "original sin," which would make her more "super-human" than simply human.

 

In Orthodoxy, we believe Mary to be human in all aspects, making her Son, fully Man and fully God, at once.

 

Yes, this is correct. Here's the first thing that popped up when I searched for elaboration since I'm short on time and brain cells at the moment: http://www.antiochianarch.org.au/Orthodox-view-on-Immaculate-Conception.aspx

[lavender's green]

Thanks to everyone who responded about EO vs RC.  It didn't occur to me that it might de-rail the thread.  Sorry about that!

 

I'm just sorting through so much right now, so I'm very interested in conversion stories and the choices people have made, or the paths they've felt called to go down.

 

I have to say that the thing about marriage really speaks to me.  There's a church only a half hour away from me.  I'm going to look into EO some more.  :)  Thanks again, everyone.

[mommaduck]

We also don't believe in Original Sin as taught by the West.

[PrincessMommy]

I know this hasn't been asked, because many may not realize it, but I wanted to point out that our communion looks different.

 

We use loaves of bread called Prosphora.  It is leaven bread in the EO churches.   My understanding is that the West always used unleavened and the East has always used leavened bread.   It is not that one is better than the other, it is that we just use different scripture verses to emphasize our traditions.   Prosphora is generally two flat loaves put together (for the 2 natures of Christ)... stamped with a seal on top.   In the center of the seal is square with IC XC NIKA. "Jesus Christ conquers"   That portion is called the Lamb and the priest cuts it out from the rest of the loaf.  That is cut up and placed in the chalice with the wine and consecrated as the Eucharistic Meal.  The rest of it is blessed, cut into bite-sized pieces, and given out after communion.  It is called Antidoran  - "Instead of the Gifts".   Those who did not take communion and non-Orthodox *may* be given some.  Although in some parishes only EO may partake.  It varies from jurisdiction and parish.  Communion is given from the chalice with a long-handled spoon.- you can see that in Milovany's photo on page 1.   Everyone receives from the spoon and receive as little children.  Our priest says: "The Handmaiden of God, Deborah, receives the body and blood of Christ for the remission of her sins and unto life everlasting."  or some variation thereof to each person as they partake.

 

I could not get my photos of the Prosphora I make to load, but you can google and image and see lots of them ;)

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Hunter's Moon]

If you were a convert I'd love to hear why you chose EO over, say, RC. I'd also like to hear more about the theological and metaphysical differences, if anyone can point me in a certain direction? DH and I are considering RC but I want to know as much as possible. :)

I was actually in the middle of RCIA classes when I began alternating my Sundays between the Catholic parish and the local Orthodox parish. I was on the fence for a long time, really hurting and in need of a place to finally rest and call home. Actually, a huge reason my struggle lasted so long was my husband's openness to the Catholic faith, but not the EO.

 

In the end, I could not become Catholic simply because it was more appealing to my husband - I felt completely at home in the EO Church.

 

As others already stated, yes, there were theological issues I struggled with, but in the end, I still respect and love my Catholic brothers and sisters and hope one day for reconciliations between the RCC and EOC.

[Hyacinth]

Over the years, he and I had many long discussions on spirituality and metaphysics and he knew me very well. He would often encourage me to go with him to a Vespers service, saying he thought I belonged there. My house was right next door to the only EO church in our town and I was not interested in the slightest because I thought it was just a type of Catholic church. Then a couple years ago, my dear friend died after a long illness. He had become very good friends with the priest of the EO parish that he frequently invited me to. About a month after his passing, I decided to go to a Vespers service as a way to be closer to my friend and to see if this priest was really as wonderful as my friend thought. That night was one of the most moving and pivotal moments in my life. The way the light streamed through the windows catching the rising tendrils of incense, the reverent chanting of the psalms, the prostrations, the angelic voices of the choir, the beauty of the icons, all of it was mesmerizing! I had never encountered anything so beautiful in any church or temple in all my travels.

 

 

 

All this time your house was right next door to the most beautiful service EVER?! I love this story.

 

[TianXiaXueXiao]

All this time your house was right next door to the most beautiful service EVER?! I love this story.

 

 

Yes, it was and I used to complain all the time about how their parishioners took up all the parking on *my* street! The poetry of life. <3

[lavender's green]

I'm really curious about birth control.  I was under the impression that it wasn't allowed (besides abstinence/NFP), but it sounds like maybe that's not the case, based on what a few posters have said?  Is it the difference between an ideal, and accepting that people are in different places on their way toward that ideal?

 

(This is a huge area for us.  I understand the RC theology regarding various forms of birth control, and we don't use hormones or barriers, but the fact is that my fertility returns almost immediately after giving birth.)

[milovany]

I'm really curious about birth control.  I was under the impression that it wasn't allowed (besides abstinence/NFP), but it sounds like maybe that's not the case, based on what a few posters have said?  Is it the difference between an ideal, and accepting that people are in different places on their way toward that ideal?

 

(This is a huge area for us.  I understand the RC theology regarding various forms of birth control, and we don't use hormones or barriers, but the fact is that my fertility returns almost immediately after giving birth.)

 

Welllll, the answer is basically, there is not one answer.  Just like the languages topic above, you'll get different answers from different folks depending on their jurisdiction/diocese/bishop. It's not a Big T tradition in Orthodoxy as I understand it.We were advised when baptized that the ideal is to remain open to life in the marriage relationship and from what I see happening around me, I think a lot of people are given that advice and apply it.  But I also know that a lot of economia is applied in this area (priests privately advising differently for couples in talking with them about their situation). It's all through relationship with the pastor and bishop. You'd never to able to say, "Well I learned on the internet that in Orthodoxy you can/can't use birth control."  You have to ask your priest. Or if you don't ever ask, you might not ever be told what to do (I hate to say it, but I've learned not to ask about something until I'm ready to hear *whatever* the answer is because I need to be open to following the exhortation once given; I don't mean this in a bad way, because I've not had the experience where priests are heavy-handed and overbearing, but in a way that doesn't make the faith too overwhelming. It's the whole, you can't change everything at once thing for me). 

[Kathryn]

I'm really curious about birth control.  I was under the impression that it wasn't allowed (besides abstinence/NFP), but it sounds like maybe that's not the case, based on what a few posters have said?  Is it the difference between an ideal, and accepting that people are in different places on their way toward that ideal?

 

(This is a huge area for us.  I understand the RC theology regarding various forms of birth control, and we don't use hormones or barriers, but the fact is that my fertility returns almost immediately after giving birth.)

 

I agree with milovany's answer again :) The ideal is the ideal. But, it is recognized by most priests/spiritual advisers that there are truly extenuating circumstances that would lead to the possibility of another child not being in the best interest of the family. That's where economia (discretionary deviation from the "letter of the law") comes into play.

[Juniper]

I'm really curious about birth control.  I was under the impression that it wasn't allowed (besides abstinence/NFP), but it sounds like maybe that's not the case, based on what a few posters have said?  Is it the difference between an ideal, and accepting that people are in different places on their way toward that ideal?

 

(This is a huge area for us.  I understand the RC theology regarding various forms of birth control, and we don't use hormones or barriers, but the fact is that my fertility returns almost immediately after giving birth.)

I was reading this article today and thought you might want to read it.http://thoughtsintrusive.wordpress.com/2012/08/30/you-call-my-words-immodest/  

 

Here is an excerpt: In contrast to Roman Catholicism, the Orthodox Faith does not believe that human seed of either sex alone constitutes human life in any way. If such a notion were true, then either of the sexes, or at least the woman, would be able to reproduce completely without need of anything from the other. But God “did not enable woman to bear children without man; if this were the case, she would be self- sufficient.â€34†Orthodoxy rejects the Latin belief system that ascribes being to “pure possibilities,†i.e., to abstract ideas of the potentialities of things. Scholastic theology says it is a sin to prevent a sperm cell and an ovum from forming a life and that the pure potentialities or possibilities of things exist fulfilled in some manner in the eternal mind and essence of God because He enjoys thinking about them.35 Therefore, Papism says, to prevent a conception is to destroy something that has a reality and being in God. This system of thought is not rooted in the Gospel but in the definitions and presuppositions of the Greek philosophers.

[milovany]

 

OH and hey I know there is a stack of SR. Elaine books at our parish bookstore I will check tomorrow at the day of rejoicing services...

 

 

Yes, please!  We need two Pascha and one Palm Sunday ("Entry Into Jerusalem") books.  :D

[Mom in High Heels]

I will read all of this tomorrow, but I want to thank you for this thread.  While I'm an atheist, I'm not against religion as long as no one tries to cram it down my throat, and I am really enjoying learning more about them.

[CadenceSophia]

If you were a convert I'd love to hear why you chose EO over, say, RC.  I'd also like to hear more about the theological and metaphysical differences, if anyone can point me in a certain direction?  DH and I are considering RC but I want to know as much as possible. :)

I was raised nominally RC, got back into the church in college and started going very Traditional Catholic after marrying my DH. DH was not Catholic but agreed when he married me to come to church. Although he believed *mostly* everything I believed, he never felt fully comfortable to become Catholic. A few years after our marriage we moved and began looking for a new church. There were limited Traditional Catholic Masses and I was Latin Mass only at that point so we eventually found a Byzantine Catholic church and both liked it. We started to fall in love with some of the theology while we were there and DH opened to the idea of becoming Byzantine Catholic. Unfortunately at the same time, I was crushed with the realization that the theology that we both loved was really NOT Catholic. Although many Catholics will tell you different, the filioque (from the Son) truly changes the understanding of the Holy Trinity. While you will find many explanations in Catholic teaching that agree with Orthodox understanding, you will find nearly as many from respected Catholic theologians and saints that would be considered heretical. I understand that nuance may not be the most compelling thing to everyone. The theological differences in Original Sin were actually MOST compelling to me, along with the Immaculate Conception (which was a hard thing for a Trad to see at first!). I read a lot during the two years it took us to sort everything out -- and by a lot I really mean that. I had dusty old tomes stacked everywhere on both sides of the issues. All the reading pushed me in the EO direction but facts alone were not enough for me to make the jump and give up my beloved Latin Mass. Finally I started reading conversion stories of people that went RC -> EO or EO -> Eastern Catholic. Seems the silliest reason but I couldn't find a single conversion story that seemed like a good reason to stay Byzantine Catholic and that is what finally pushed me over the edge. Hubby & I (along with the kids) were Chrismated and Communed a few years ago.

 

Hope that is helpful and not too much detail. If you want any book suggestions you can ask or PM me... but I have absolutely none that would be considered light reading lol

[milovany]

Hi CadenceSophia, just wanted to let you know that there's a small EO "social group" (what WTM calls groups that members can form around a common interest) here.  We'd love to have you join us if you're interested. 

 

 

[TianXiaXueXiao]

My husband used to take martial arts classes...and I'm sorry I am completelty spacing on the name of that style of fighting...but all of the practitioners are Russian Orthodox. His teachers spoke at length about how their religious practices are incorporated into their martial arts.

 

Is Russian Orthodox the same as Eastern Orthodox?

 

And is there some kind of "official" association between the Church and this particular form of martial arts, or just coincidence that everyone who does it is Russian Orthodox? [if, indeed, RO is the same as EO.]

 

ETA oh! Its called Systema.

 

First, yes, Eastern Orthodox and Russian Orthodox are the same. Aside from cultural variances, the theology is the same. I think your husband was probably involved in systema, a Russian martial art that does have roots in the church in Russia. This would be one of those cultural variances. As far as I know, Systema is not widely practiced across other jurisdictions of the Orthodox Church.

 

[Juniper]

My husband used to take martial arts classes...and I'm sorry I am completelty spacing on the name of that style of fighting...but all of the practitioners are Russian Orthodox. His teachers spoke at length about how their religious practices are incorporated into their martial arts.

 

Is Russian Orthodox the same as Eastern Orthodox?

 

And is there some kind of "official" association between the Church and this particular form of martial arts, or just coincidence that everyone who does it is Russian Orthodox? [if, indeed, RO is the same as EO.]

 

ETA oh! Its called Systema.

Yes, it is my understanding that Russian Orthodoxy is the spiritual basis for this form of martial arts, but it is not a requirement to learn it. 

 

 

As to your second question, yes the Russian Orthodox Church is a part of Eastern Orthodoxy. Different Geographic areas have different jurisdictions. 

[milovany]

Ugh, my phone didn't let me see that others had already answered the question.  Carry on!  :)

[Alexigail]

Huh.  I've been Orthodox whole life and I've never heard of systema.  I guess we learn something new every day!

[Kathryn]

Huh. I've been Orthodox whole life and I've never heard of systema. I guess we learn something new every day!

I've never heard of it either.

[sheryl]

That is basically correct.  What the timeline didn't  show is that there was an earlier split off of the Oriental churches (Coptic, Armenian, Ethiopian, Indian)  These churches only recognize the first 3 Ecumenical councils.  EO and OO are very close theologically but are not in communion.  This was largely due to language and geographical distance that exacerbated Christological issues (over oversimplifying a bit).

OK, you just sound smart, girl! :)

[PrincessMommy]

OK, you just sound smart, girl! :)

 

LOL  - and pretty too. :lol:

[milovany]

Well I tried but  most of our books are sold...we have only 3 nativity books left individually ,one set of the 12 feasts and one of the 3 day Paschal set , we must have been wiped out for Pascha baskets!

 

Maggie, you should message Rosie .... she's been looking for the Pascha book and it's in the Paschal set.  She might be interested in getting the set just to get the Pascha book (if she's not, I might be).  They're out of print, so it's not going to be possible to get more at your parish. 

[Rosie_0801]

You're the Orthodox Christian, Milovany. You get dibs. :)

 

[Rosie_0801]

I do need the Dormition of the Theotokos, though.