How do you know what you believe?

[Hoot]

 

This is actually one of the arguments I grew up listening to: does faith save or works? My paternal family leaned one way and maternal side the other. They each would argue vehemently for their side and both had the Bible to back them up. I talked to both as a young adult trying to figure it out for myself. When I expressed to each how confused I still was, I found a place they both agreed - they both had times of confusion, but when they prayed and searched their Bible, God showed them the truth. WHAT?!? How could that be possible when they came to different conclusions?

 

15 years later, I still think both sides have a good argument. I know it is clear to you, and I am not trying to convince you otherwise. I just wanted you to know that other Christians, with just as much faith and sincerity, reading the same Bible, have come to a different conclusion.

 

This!

 

The bolded bugs me, too.  Honestly, I don't think god shows anybody anything.  I think you eventually settle on what you want or what you intuit and call it god's will.  It's interesting how much of "god's will" ends up being remarkably close to what "man wanted."  Or, often the opposite of what man wanted which then gives full license to boast some sort of personal martyrdom for doing god's will when that wasn't at all what they really wanted. 

[Hoot]

 

I suspect most people don't think their approach is a scare tactic. Consider the post directly above yours, where '10 mentions this idea that we are all sinners and we will all be judged. The implication here is that if we are not believers, we will be judged guilty, and sentenced to an eternity of torment and suffering (whatever that means). I don't think for a minute '10 is trying to "scare" me, just pass along what she believes. But it's a scary proposition nevertheless. Gosh, what if I was a believer and thought I was a legitimate believer (a "true Christian" to use saddlemomma's words), but then realized I wasn't trusting Jesus with something. Would that mean I would be judged guilty for not having belief? What if my baptism and that wonder, euphoric feeling I had for days after was really my "flesh" feeling the placebo effect of a highly charged emotionally rewarding event, but my actions revealed a lack of belief? How would I be judged? What if I presumed I was saved when in fact I had just been fooling myself because of the comfort it gave me? My future would be pretty terrible, and when you're talking about eternity, that can be pretty darn frightening. The advice to trust God is no more helpful than the advice to just don't worry. How do you not worry when something terribly worrisome is a real problem? Even the glaring examples of people trying to scare nonbelievers on purpose do so because they think they are ultimately "waking up" the spiritual sleeper. Ever watch two guys from

? If there exists a better example of the Worst Case Scenario Christian than WBC, I'd love to hear it. They're an established church, not one guy. They go straight to the bible for their reasons. And just listen to their message - it's intended to be a message of love. For realz. The "scare" is similar to a child's spank - a painful way to get attention so someone avoids getting hurt. 

 

You said this far better than I did previously.  Yes, this is EXACTLY what is rolling around in my head and it is exactly what I meant about growing up with Christian messages of fear.

[DawnM]

I think the stumbling block is the death and resurrection of Jesus.  And all the small things that happened during Christ's ministry, which would have been witnessed by only a few people.

 

There are no historical records of the sky turning dark during the crucifixion for example.  There ARE documents that confirm the leaders of the nation and such, and they do match up to Biblical texts.

 

I too have been studying the accuracy of Biblical History, but I suppose it depends on what exactly one is referring to.  

 

Dawn

 

 

Albeto, Do you have a source you can point me to regarding the historical accuracy of the Bible having been falsified?  A number of years ago, there was a book that was highly recommended on the boards.  The author was an athiest historian, but one of the things that I remember from the book was his premise that the Bible has largely been shown to be an accurate historical record. Therefore, even though he doesn't believe it theologically, he accepts it as an historical document.  (I wish I could remember the title and author so I could finish reading it, but alas, I can't. I borrowed it from the library and had to return it before I finished it.)
 

Thank you.

 

[Hoot]

I have been born again, so I know firsthand what happens to you once you are. It is a spiritual change that takes place. I have only wanted to give a small witness to that experience that you can "know" truth. As per the OP "How do you know what you believe?". Not just, "Why do you believe what you do?"

So to repeat, my belief and experience is: You can know for certainty that God exists. And you can find truth on all sorts of matters, and have it confirmed to you - IF - you are humble before God and ask him yourself.

 

 

Nope.  Sorry, but this just doesn't wash.  You are working under the assumption that the non-christians or unbelievers that you're talking to were never believers before. I WAS a Christian.  I DID feel that spiritual change.  I have humbly and fervently sought god for YEARS and only just within the last couple of years even felt free enough to open my mouth and say, "I kind of think this is all a sham." I KNOW exactly what you're talking about.  Do you know what I got when I fought tooth and nail through the bible seeking god, asking him to give me a sign, reveal himself or just... anything at all?  NOTHING.  Sure, I could force it manipulate things into appearing that they had anything to do with it, but it was just that... manipulation.  Changing what I really saw into what I WANTED to see.  Looking back, the "spiritual change" was endorphins, the excitement of the moment, feeling a part of a group (all of my friends and family were Christians), feeling a part of a ritual.  For years I heard the phrase, "fake it til you make it" with regards to feeling god's presence.  I guess I've simply grown tired of faking my emotions and substituting what I really see for what I want to see.  So, I see two possible options:  (1) God is real but he is ignoring me, I am not one of his elect etc. or (2) God is not real and I am just talking into thin air.     

[HRAAB]

Nope.  Sorry, but this just doesn't wash.  You are working under the assumption that the non-christians or unbelievers that you're talking to were never believers before. I WAS a Christian.  I DID feel that spiritual change.  I have humbly and fervently sought god for YEARS and only just within the last couple of years even felt free enough to open my mouth and say, "I kind of think this is all a sham." I KNOW exactly what you're talking about.  Do you know what I got when I fought tooth and nail through the bible seeking god, asking him to give me a sign, reveal himself or just... anything at all?  NOTHING.  Sure, I could force it manipulate things into appearing that they had anything to do with it, but it was just that... manipulation.  Changing what I really saw into what I WANTED to see.  Looking back, the "spiritual change" was endorphins, the excitement of the moment, feeling a part of a group (all of my friends and family were Christians), feeling a part of a ritual.  For years I heard the phrase, "fake it til you make it" with regards to feeling god's presence.  I guess I've simply grown tired of faking my emotions and substituting what I really see for what I want to see.  So, I see two possible options:  (1) God is real but he is ignoring me, I am not one of his elect etc. or (2) God is not real and I am just talking into thin air.     

 

"Choose to believe" is what I was told repeatedly.  That's like telling someone to choose to believe the sun revolves around the earth.  if salvation is based on believing in Jesus's saving work, isn't he going to know if a person is being honest or not?

[Hoot]

 

I believe in the great compost pile in the sky (or ground, but sky sounds better).  :)

 

 

I :001_wub: this. 

 

 

Anyways, I did not have to over come the fear and intimidation you mention so I can't comment on deprogramming based on any personal experience.  Sounds as though your family and work pressures have you cornered in a bit here.   You are clearly having a mind set shift.  I read your concerns about religion and I agree with them.  But, not believing in a Christian god does not mean that you have to believe in something else.  You do not need to fill it with another belief system or even a label.  Being an atheist does not occupy a lot of my thought or energy (whereas I see following a faith probably does--which is fine for those who choose to do so).  Basically, instead of trying to fill your lack of belief with some other system, I'd try to accept it as it is and not get too hung up on trying to identify yourself as something else.

 

Thank you for this, especially the bolded.  This is actually very helpful.

[Mom in High Heels]

Perhaps that's true for her experience? Maybe for the christians she's met that's true. She used an "I" statement. Two people maybe in an entire thread which is hardly the sum total of the discussion.

 

And yes, as Mergath has pointed out, it could be very well part of one's processing through a difficult experience that mellows with time.

 

It may very well be her true experience, and I know from experience that there are some horrible Christians, BUT if that statement had been about any other religion people would be up in arms about it.  I'm not a Christian, and have some serious issues with it, but I believe it should be respected as a religion.  

 

 

One other thing that has stood out for me in my own personal journey and that this thread has reminded me of is Peace.  Reading through this thread with the disagreements between differing Christians, each one so sure that their Biblical interpretation is the correct, arguments over church history, etc. has made me remember that the one thing I longed for in Christianity, I never found until I walked away from religion.  That is peace.  Just reading through this thread makes me feel anxious and reminds me of what I left behind.  I don't know if it's an answer to your question: 'how do you know what you believe', but for me, the biggest indicator that I was on the right road was when I started to feel peace.  I felt peace from no longer trying to force myself into beliefs I could not give an honest yes to, but I also felt great peace in leaving behind these arguments.  You might ask yourself when do you feel the most peace or what is it that causes you the most angst.

 

Also, my dh still attends church, the same church we were married in, as do my 3 younger children.  He has always respected my individual needs, including my need to be authentic in my beliefs.  On the other hand, I don't do anything to interfere in his religious practices.  I still frequently attend church with them out of the love and respect I feel for my family.  In an odd way, our marriage improved and became stronger when I took that first step forward and was honest about my disbelief.  False living just doesn't lead to peace, it also doesn't make one a very happy person.  Maybe that's why my marriage has improved, because I've become a more peaceful, happy person.

 

I'm sorry for what you're going through right now.

 

Yes to all of the bolded.  When I decided to just let it all go and not fight trying to believe and make sense of something that to me made absolutely no sense, I felt free and finally at peace with myself and the world.

[Hoot]

It's not hypocritical to go to church because your husband wants you to. It's a nice, friendly thing to do. :) (Him bullying you is not nice or friendly.)

 

To answer the original question, it was no big deal for me to drop childhood teachings because I'm an opinionated sort. :lol: But it takes time, because life takes time. 

 

Possibly books with study questions will help you untangle your thoughts. This is a pagan book, but the questions are generally useful for people searching, I think. http://www.amazon.com/Paganism-Introduction-Earth--Centered-Religions/dp/0738702226/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1398565247&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=practicing+earth+centered+religion I daresay people could offer more appropriate options. :)

 

Thank you, Rosie!

 

I will definitely look into that book.  I seem to be naturally drawn to religions/religious practices/sects/groups/thought processes/ideologies - I don't know the word I'm looking for here - that draw more meaning from the natural world so this looks very appealing.

[Hoot]

I think, for me, the reason I find it hypocritical is that everyone ASSUMES that I have these same Christian beliefs that they do.  I work for a Christian school.  I work with a Christian homeschool group.  And, when I sit in a pew, it solidifies in people's minds that I do, in fact, believe as they do.  I think I would find it less problematic if I could stand up without fear of retribution (being fired from my job and no longer allowed to work with the homeschool group) and say, "I don't believe what you believe, but please accept me anyway."

 

 

It's not hypocritical to go to church because your husband wants you to. It's a nice, friendly thing to do. :) (Him bullying you is not nice or friendly.)

 

 

Yes, my atheist dad used to come to church with us at Easter and Christmas, and when we had special events like First Communion. It wasn't hypocritical. He was just supporting my mum and us kids as we took part in what was, at the time, a part of our lives. I don't really know what he was thinking all through Mass, but it was nice to have Dad there sometimes. maybe he just used the time for personal reflection.

 

I would go to church with a friend or relative if they asked me to (in a non-bullying way) and not feel any qualms about being a hypocrite.

 

[HRAAB]

I think, for me, the reason I find it hypocritical is that everyone ASSUMES that I have these same Christian beliefs that they do.  I work for a Christian school.  I work with a Christian homeschool group.  And, when I sit in a pew, it solidifies in people's minds that I do, in fact, believe as they do.  I think I would find it less problematic if I could stand up without fear of retribution (being fired from my job and no longer allowed to work with the homeschool group) and say, "I don't believe what you believe, but please accept me anyway."

 

I see it can depend largely on the church that one is attending.  The parish my family attends is very, very large.  I can be very inconspicuous.  Even so, the previous pastor knew exactly where I was, and he would always give me a smile when he saw me.  In a smaller church, especially if it's connected with the school you work at or many of your homeschooling group attend there, I understand why you feel that way.

[Aura]

I think, for me, the reason I find it hypocritical is that everyone ASSUMES that I have these same Christian beliefs that they do. I work for a Christian school. I work with a Christian homeschool group. And, when I sit in a pew, it solidifies in people's minds that I do, in fact, believe as they do. I think I would find it less problematic if I could stand up without fear of retribution (being fired from my job and no longer allowed to work with the homeschool group) and say, "I don't believe what you believe, but please accept me anyway."

Let me see if I get this....You experienced a paradigm shift. You've changed, but people around you don't really know the depth of these changes. You know how they think and how they believe about certain things because you once thought and believed the same.

 

Because of this, you have a pretty good idea of how they will react if they knew the truth about your beliefs, and it would not be accepting. You feel pretty certain that AT THE LEAST you would have their pity and become a missionary project. And so, you feel hypocritical by not being honest, but you still value them for other reasons and don't really want to just walk away from them altogether. So you're frustrated and wish they could just get over their own narrow-mindedness.

 

Is that right? If not, sorry. That's how I feel anyway. :/

[Hoot]

Regarding the Catholic canon, no I do not see it as the inspired and preserved word of God. I see those extra books as being corruptions. My perspective is that Satan has tried to corrupt, replace, and destroy God's word down throughout the ages. This is also why so many bibles have been burnt and destroyed, and why the Bible has been banned. And it is also why so many different Bible versions saying different things exist today. If you are interested in studying the manuscript evidence, you first need to understand that there are two lines of manuscripts. Then it is a matter of finding out which is the true line.

 

And yet, many christians (perhaps even someone upthread, I've read so much in the past few days that it's all running together) believe that the bible is the inerrant word of god and that god, though working through mere humans, would never allow his word to be changed fundamentally.  If there is more than one "line," then that thinking cannot possibly be true and any and all "lines" can be just as corrupt as any other. 

 

[Teannika]

One other thing that has stood out for me in my own personal journey and that this thread has reminded me of is Peace. Reading through this thread with the disagreements between differing Christians, each one so sure that their Biblical interpretation is the correct, arguments over church history, etc. has made me remember that the one thing I longed for in Christianity, I never found until I walked away from religion. That is peace. Just reading through this thread makes me feel anxious and reminds me of what I left behind. I don't know if it's an answer to your question: 'how do you know what you believe', but for me, the biggest indicator that I was on the right road was when I started to feel peace. I felt peace from no longer trying to force myself into beliefs I could not give an honest yes to, but I also felt great peace in leaving behind these arguments. You might ask yourself when do you feel the most peace or what is it that causes you the most angst.

 

Also, my dh still attends church, the same church we were married in, as do my 3 younger children. He has always respected my individual needs, including my need to be authentic in my beliefs. On the other hand, I don't do anything to interfere in his religious practices. I still frequently attend church with them out of the love and respect I feel for my family. In an odd way, our marriage improved and became stronger when I took that first step forward and was honest about my disbelief. False living just doesn't lead to peace, it also doesn't make one a very happy person. Maybe that's why my marriage has improved, because I've become a more peaceful, happy person.

 

I'm sorry for what you're going through right now.

Ishki, I just wanted to say that even though we are in different shoes I really liked your post above and relate to it very much. You word things so nicely as well. Even though we have both come to different conclusions, it sounds like a similar walk. I also found that I had true peace only after being totally honest with myself, leaving behind what everyone else was doing, and doing my own thing to obtain that peace. To me it was also just simply about being honest with myself. That was my main goal, honesty, and seeking 'truth' whatever it may be that I may find. I think that's the best advice for anyone. Otherwise you end up being tortured mentally, even if it's mostly by your own thoughts.

[Susan C.]

...  I think I would find it less problematic if I could stand up without fear of retribution (being fired from my job and no longer allowed to work with the homeschool group) and say, "I don't believe what you believe, but please accept me anyway."

 

I agree that would be wonderful if you were accepted for believing differently.  I get the feeling if I said that, I would be written off. Its that "I believe what is right, nothing else is" deal, and "if you don't believe as I do, then you are not even a Christian." I don't buy into that and I just don't engage. What helped was to figure out that it isn't any of these people's business what I do or don't believe. I get to choose who I tell.

[Teannika]

Horton hasn't actually asked for advice on managing her husband's spiritual life. Let's leave the poor guy alone.

Horton, I just wanted to apologise if I overstepped the mark. I had a think over night, and a look back over my reply post to you and realise it did come across a bit blunt and insensitive. I didn't mean it that way. I wish now I had slowed down, edited better, or not responded at all.

 

My problem solving brain kicked in and those were the questions that came immediately to mind. I didn't expect you to have to answer them, of course it's none of my business. I also didn't want to assume anything, which I think is what also prompted me to ask. I'm happy to just accept that you disagree with my point of view and those things that you mentioned.

[Teannika]

I get that, but my point is if your only answer is scriptural, then your answer isn't based on knowledge but on faith.

 

 

I know. I felt the same way when I was "born again."

 

 

So again, no one can truly know. As you explain, the individual who "knew" may have been wrong the whole time. Who's to say deep down inside either they didn't want to believe, or didn't want to acknowledge their sins? They can't know at the time they were lacking all these things when they went to lay all things aside and "go honestly before God to ask him." I thought I was truly born again of a loving god. You think you are. I was wrong, even though at the time I honestly thought I knew. You could be wrong too, and you wouldn't know it. And that's really my only point - you cannot know. You can only believe.

 

Well the way I see it is that you can say that no one can truly know. But you don't know that no one can truly know for sure. KWIM? :D

 

Not every Christian falls away before the end of their life. Yes, it is happening a lot today. But that was prophesied in the Bible to happen. So for myself, that is further evidence that God is real and his word is true and accurate.

 

'Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;' (2 Thessalonians 2:3)

 

 

 

I replied to the OP to give examples of how I "know". And that is why I attempted to give my evidence, even if I only just touched on it so far.

[Susan C.]

And yet, many christians (perhaps even someone upthread, I've read so much in the past few days that it's all running together) believe that the bible is the inerrant word of god and that god, though working through mere humans, would never allow his word to be changed fundamentally.  If there is more than one "line," then that thinking cannot possibly be true and any and all "lines" can be just as corrupt as any other. 

 

 

Part of that was me... and I don't mean that at all. But I see where you are at to get that thought. I'm sorry I'm still figuring things out and may not have worded things as well as I wish I could. Inerrancy of the Bible and interpreting the Bible critically/historically don't always go together well. When your mind clears a bit from all of this input, go over to patheos.com and read posts by Peter Enns (on evangelical channel, although he is quite progressive). He addresses this all very well, he is an Old Testament scholar. The things he has written have really helped me to come to peace with the God of the Old Testament. It is scholarly, not "just believe" and I greatly appreciate that. You can also get to his articles on his Facebook page and clicking the links there.

[HRAAB]

Ishki, I just wanted to say that even though we are in different shoes I really liked your post above and relate to it very much. You word things so nicely as well. Even though we have both come to different conclusions, it sounds like a similar walk. I also found that I had true peace only after being totally honest with myself, leaving behind what everyone else was doing, and doing my own thing to obtain that peace. To me it was also just simply about being honest with myself. That was my main goal, honesty, and seeking 'truth' whatever it may be that I may find. I think that's the best advice for anyone. Otherwise you end up being tortured mentally, even if it's mostly by your own thoughts.

 

I appreciate your post.  Like you said, even though we ended up in very different places, we can understand some of what the other saying.  That's the beginning of real dialogue.

 

Of course that leads to the big question.  If there is only one, absolute truth, one is of us seriously mistaken.   :001_smile:   It's interesting though.  Where your path took you, where my path took me, and both of us have found peace.  

[Teannika]

I appreciate your post. Like you said, even though we ended up in very different places, we can understand some of what the other saying. That's the beginning of real dialogue.

 

Of course that leads to the big question. If there is only one, absolute truth, one is of us seriously mistaken. :001_smile: It's interesting though. Where your path took you, where my path took me, and both of us have found peace.

I think what resonates the most with me is that I appreciate honesty to such a great degree. I really don't like fakeness in many forms, especially in people. Unfortunately I think there is a lot of fakeness and hypocrisy found in Christian circles which also upsets me, as much as it upsets the non-Christians.

 

You are lucky to have a supportive husband.

 

ETA: yes, agreeing about having peace of mind. Very important.

[6packofun]

"How do you know what you believe?"   I'd like to think that I only believe what I think is true.  And, I try to test/discover what is true if I have doubts.  That is why I start with, "What do you doubt?" rather than asking what I believe because the latter tends to end in me really trying to figure out what I *WANT* to believe and my wants and wishes about truth don't make them true, do they?  :)

 

I love the study of apologetics and I've mainly found it helpful for my OWN faith, much more so than for any evangelistic purposes or defending myself against someone else's beliefs or whatnot.  One of my favorite apologists says, "I don't believe in Christianity because 'it works for me', I believe it because I think it's true."  That's key for me.  Christianity isn't a weak person's way out.  (It doesn't HAVE to be)  If I'm having doubts, it helps me not one bit to ask others (or have others offer) all the ways that THEY do not believe in God, Christianity, etc.  I start with myself.  My doubts are my own and the ones I need to deal with, not extra noise from someone else's channel.  lol

 

I love the story in Luke 7 about John the Baptist.  This is the man who was the forerunner to Christ.  He spent time with the Lord himself, baptized Him and saw/heard God and the Holy Spirit, etc.  The disciples are telling him about all that Jesus is doing.  But in prison, a very weary John sends them back to Jesus to ask, "Are you the one who was to come, or should we expect someone else?"  **John the Baptist** doubts!  That blew my mind.  What does he do?  He asks Jesus directly if He is who He says He is.  Does Jesus rebuke John or say, "Are you kidding me?  Haven't you been paying attention?!!"  Nope.  He tells the disciples to go back with the *evidence* of His miracles to give John confidence and help him endure.  If God Himself invites inquiry, searching, and requests for proof, then I don't hesitate!  lol

 

There are many, many questions to which we will not have adequate answers in this life.  But God says that you can approach Him with all of that and He will answer.  It may not be an answer you like, but you can keep searching and there is a satisfaction in that, too.  I'd also say not to give up on the Scriptures.  It's a shifting, more frightening thing, to me, to try and base truth on my own experiences.  I question things in the Bible all the time.  I question what other people and other belief systems say about those same things, too.  I know that it may sound daunting to add this work to your life, but it is the work of loving God with all your mind!

[Rosie_0801]

Thank you, Rosie!

 

I will definitely look into that book.  I seem to be naturally drawn to religions/religious practices/sects/groups/thought processes/ideologies - I don't know the word I'm looking for here - that draw more meaning from the natural world so this looks very appealing.

 

You'll probably find people willing to work through the study questions in the Alternative Spirituality group.

[Hoot]

Teannika, again, we're not going to agree. I don't want to turn this thread into an doctrinal argument between you and me.  Thank you and you're welcome to PM me if you'd like. 

 

To you and everyone else still reading, I apologize for pressing on past my point that the evangelical point of view is not the traditional/ancient/original point of view.  That's all I was trying to say with my longer post on page 3 or so.

 

Milovany, I just want to say that I have loved reading your posts.  They are fascinating, interesting, and enlightening.  You have been very gracious in all of your responses while being firm in your beliefs. 

 

[Hoot]

Just saw this and thought perhaps it's something for the OP to reflect upon: https://scontent-a-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/t1.0-9/10254991_10152028505017547_232325722290217949_n.jpg?dl=1

 

I like this.  Thank you!

 

[AimeeM]

Most people who question or leave mainstream Christianity (or any other religion, for that matter) end up with quite a bit of anger.  I would assume that by now people would know to expect some of that in this kind of thread.  I don't think the OP is trying to intentionally hurt anyone, just working out her own emotions.

 

You should have heard some of the things I said about Christians when I left it all behind as a teen. ;)  I've mellowed quite a bit with time.

 

I left a bad, largely african american area of Atlanta with some bad feelings. Would it be appropriate for me to say that I find low income african american individuals to be of the most detestable people I've known? Not the same thing as religion, sure, but why stop at religion? If we're allowed to take out our anger on an entire group of people, because in our small corner of the world we've had some bad experiences let's have at it - race, religion, politics...

[milovany]

Milovany, I just want to say that I have loved reading your posts.  They are fascinating, interesting, and enlightening.  You have been very gracious in all of your responses while being firm in your beliefs. 

 

 

Thank you, Contessa. If ever down the road you might have any thoughts/questions about Orthodoxy I'd be happy to answer them (I receive PM notifications). I've thought about starting an Ask An Orthodox Christian thread, but I'm not an expert, just someone baptized and growing in the faith. And it sounds like you are probably interested in exploring outside of Christianity, and I wish you well on your journey.

[Teannika]

Nope.  Sorry, but this just doesn't wash.  You are working under the assumption that the non-christians or unbelievers that you're talking to were never believers before. I WAS a Christian.  I DID feel that spiritual change.  I have humbly and fervently sought god for YEARS and only just within the last couple of years even felt free enough to open my mouth and say, "I kind of think this is all a sham." I KNOW exactly what you're talking about.  Do you know what I got when I fought tooth and nail through the bible seeking god, asking him to give me a sign, reveal himself or just... anything at all?  NOTHING.  Sure, I could force it manipulate things into appearing that they had anything to do with it, but it was just that... manipulation.  Changing what I really saw into what I WANTED to see.  Looking back, the "spiritual change" was endorphins, the excitement of the moment, feeling a part of a group (all of my friends and family were Christians), feeling a part of a ritual.  For years I heard the phrase, "fake it til you make it" with regards to feeling god's presence.  I guess I've simply grown tired of faking my emotions and substituting what I really see for what I want to see.  So, I see two possible options:  (1) God is real but he is ignoring me, I am not one of his elect etc. or (2) God is not real and I am just talking into thin air.     

 

In one of my earlier posts, I explained (probably not well), that I went through a hard depression period of seven odd years or so because I just didn't "get it" (it being Christian beliefs, who God was, what on earth was he doing by creating us, his plan...). During that time I also got nothing. That is why in another post I said that God doesn't show up on demand, because that was my experience - getting nothing. Even though I begged him and sought it with tears. At that time in my life if I went to a church service I would cry through it because something didn't sit right with me. And also at that time I had left my family and friends behind and did my own thing, trying to get through life and sort out who God really was and the way he worked. And why didn't he answer me or show up if he was real?!

 

I can honestly say though, I was willing to accept whatever may be in the end. I didn't manipulate my own experiences. And I definately haven't been caught up in the hype of church fellowship and all of the pressures that can come with that. My answers and evidences, and God's response to me that eventually came did not come in the form of feelings. It came in the form of him personally showing me what I needed to see and understand. Things that I never got previously even though I had been raised in Christian home and school, having access to observing Christians and listening to Christian teachings.

 

I can relate to where you are, and some of the real doubts and queiries that you have had. But I also think that you have already chosen what you believe now and are no longer seeking. One comment you made mentioned that God was egotistic. Yes! This was one of my main concerns during that period of time. I just couldn't get past that. I couldn't understand God's wisdom at all, because everything my mind reduced the Christian belief to was that God just wanted to be worshipped and was manipulating us like robots to give him that. I didn't understand then that it was for my own well-being. He doesn't want us to worship Satan, which would have the opposite effects on us. And he doesn't want us to worship ourselves. He alone deserves praise, and it is only where he has brought me to all these years later that I can honestly praise him willingly, voluntary, automatically, without thinking in that negative way of him being egotistical. When I was young I never thought I'd genuingly be able to praise and thank him, but now it flows out of me at times and I praise him for that. I don't have to induce it, it is genuine thanks for him for having saved my ungrateful butt.

[Hoot]

I want to gently suggest that it would be devastating to me if my husband were to come to me one day and tell me that he no longer believed, no longer wanted to practice in our Catholic faith. Our desire to marry Catholic partners, and raise our children in a Catholic home, was one of the things that brought us together. It would be deeply troubling for him to suddenly swing in the opposite direction, no matter how supportive I would try to be outwardly. I married a christian/catholic man, and that was one of the things that sealed the deal for us. Your husband is probably experiencing something similar. It would be no different than an atheist marrying a similarly minded person, only for that person to become a born again, fire and brimstone christian. Not an easy situation for the partner, any more than the person going through the change.

I would also caution you against remaining at the christian school if you decide you aren't christian. Nobody can make that decision for you, and I'm so sorry that you're going through this - but it really isn't fair to the children or the paying families, who are probably paying dearly to send their children to a school to be educated by faithful christians, nor is it fair to YOU to have to preach something you do not believe to be true - that could have a major (negative) impact on you eventually.

 

 

I do not disagree with any of this.  I would never suggest that this shift be easy for him since it is absolutely nowhere near easy for ME.  I only ask for grace and kindness as I seek to choose my own way.

 

As for my job at the school, I am not a teacher and have no part in the education of the students.  I agree that I absolutely could not remain in a position to teach biblical principals to children if I no longer believed them.  I think that would be morally wrong of me and inherently dishonest.  However, because neither my belief or unbelief has any bearing at all on what the students are learning, I feel like I am justified in keeping quiet in order to keep my job.

 

[Mandylubug]

I do not disagree with any of this.  I would never suggest that this shift be easy for him since it is absolutely nowhere near easy for ME.  I only ask for grace and kindness as I seek to choose my own way.

 

As for my job at the school, I am not a teacher and have no part in the education of the students.  I agree that I absolutely could not remain in a position to teach biblical principals to children if I no longer believed them.  I think that would be morally wrong of me and inherently dishonest.  However, because neither my belief or unbelief has any bearing at all on what the students are learning, I feel like I am justified in keeping quiet in order to keep my job.

 

 

Unless you had to sign a statement of faith when hired, I wouldn't update them on your personal opinions. No ones business.

[Hoot]

Your last sentence...I don't even know what to say. I can't imagine the uproar if you filled in any other class of people.

 

I didn't mean to be offensive, but I can see where it came across that way and I do apologize.  I want to justify or clarify it, but I can't.  To be honest, what I said was mean and I'm sorry.  That's not to say that I haven't felt that way frequently, but the way in which I said it was not very kind.

[Hoot]

This is why I really should stay away from these threads. They start out as a sincere request for help/advice, but always seem to turn into an opportunity to bash Christians.  As if there are not detestable people of all sorts, believers of various faiths and unbelievers as well.    I always get sucked in, though.  Maybe someday I'll learn to stay away.  

 

I apologize.  I really, really did not mean to Christian bash.  I suppose I should have used the word "unkind" or something else instead of detestable.  I was way too harsh and very out of line.  I'm sorry.

[Hoot]

But nearly every world religion can claim a list of prophecies that "came true."  Why doesn't it prove the truth of all of them?

 

I think it has more to do with the fact that, if you make enough vague predictions, at least a few of them are bound to line up with actual events over the span of thousands of years.

 

THIS!

[Hoot]

OP- after reading all of your replies to people, and your agreeing with or disputing of other's posts, I just want to say I think you already know how you feel, and where you are. I just think you are afraid to admit it, even to yourself.

 

 

Honestly, as I've been reading this thread, I've come to this same conclusion.  It is really helping me to tease out my thought processes on quite a few issues and to see more clearly the things I'm naturally drawn to.  Admitting it, saying it out loud is scary though.  I've been taught for years that spoken words have immense power - I still believe that - and so I still have literally never said the words "I don't believe in god" out loud to anyone... not even myself.  And let me tell you, I've done some impressive verbal calisthenics to avoid saying those exact words.  Somehow, typing it online is different from actually voicing it.  The intention is different.  I've heard for years that voicing something that powerful is a dangerous thing, that you're inviting tragedy into your life by renouncing god verbally.  There are so many scare tactic stories that I have heard of people doing just that and then immediately dying in a car accident or having a piano dropped on their head or something else equally as awful.  It's all superstition, of course, nothing more dangerous than having a black cat walk in your path, but somehow it's one of those ridiculous and illogical things that I'm having a hard time shaking.    

[Hoot]

Contessa, have you considered Deist? Maybe you believe in a god, but not a Christian God? You could also consider referring to yourself as a non-specific monotheist.

 

How do you know what to believe.. listen to your heart, and let it lead you. As Ishki pointed out, Peace. Maybe take a step or two away, and figure out what brings you peace.

 

I do not like this, I love it just as much as I love Ishki's "peace."  :001_smile:  I have never really considered "deist" as an option.  I'm learning a lot about labels in this thread.  Thank you.

[Word Nerd]

I didn't mean to be offensive, but I can see where it came across that way and I do apologize. I want to justify or clarify it, but I can't. To be honest, what I said was mean and I'm sorry. That's not to say that I haven't felt that way frequently, but the way in which I said it was not very kind.

I appreciate that you clarified and apologized for the comment.

[HRAAB]

While you're at it, you might check out these:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panentheism

 

http://www.enlightened-spirituality.org/panentheism.html

 

There's a current discussion on the Alternative Spirituality group right now.  This is the nearest I can come to saying I believe in a god.  It's more of a metaphor for god for me personally, but it is something that resonates with me.

 

In the end, regardless of all the advice we all have and we do have plenty, this is your spiritual journey.  All yours.  No one else gets to claim it.

[Unicorn.]

If it makes you feel better, beyond my best friend, and the people that live in my house, I'm not "out" publicly. Like you, I'm not ready to give up friendships from people who wouldn't be accepting, AND I don't want people trying to convert me back.

 

I'm respectful of other people's beliefs, and think any and all religion is okay for other people if it makes them feel better. I bow my head when others pray as a show of respect, but I don't participate. I don't think I'm being hypocritical, just respectful of their ways.

 

I think you are in a difficult position in regards to your job, and I probably wouldn't say anything if it were me. If your dh isn't ready to hear it, then wait until you think he is. I'm sure I'll get slammed for those last two sentences. Oh well. Do what you have to do.

[Dana]

Honestly, as I've been reading this thread, I've come to this same conclusion. It is really helping me to tease out my thought processes on quite a few issues and to see more clearly the things I'm naturally drawn to. Admitting it, saying it out loud is scary though. I've been taught for years that spoken words have immense power - I still believe that - and so I still have literally never said the words "I don't believe in god" out loud to anyone... not even myself. And let me tell you, I've done some impressive verbal calisthenics to avoid saying those exact words. Somehow, typing it online is different from actually voicing it. The intention is different. I've heard for years that voicing something that powerful is a dangerous thing, that you're inviting tragedy into your life by renouncing god verbally. There are so many scare tactic stories that I have heard of people doing just that and then immediately dying in a car accident or having a piano dropped on their head or something else equally as awful. It's all superstition, of course, nothing more dangerous than having a black cat walk in your path, but somehow it's one of those ridiculous and illogical things that I'm having a hard time shaking.

:grouphug:

 

I understand.

 

Both my parents are ministers.

I grew up with them going through seminary and then in different churches they worked in.

Dh has always been atheist, although he went with me to church when I wanted.

We were married in a church. Our son was baptized.

 

I see the bad in Christianity. When a friend in college told me he'd "found God", my initial thought (which I managed not to say) was, "I'm so sorry." It wasn't because he'd found faith...it was because of the type he'd found.

 

I also see the good.

My parents do walk the walk in many many ways. They fall short in others, but I've never doubted their faith and belief in God. Mom used to listen to me wrestle with some questions when I was younger and her answers were never dismissive. She often says that our conceptions of God are limited by our understanding but God is limitless.

We had talks about literalism. We talked about translations of the Bible.

 

And yet...both my sister and I ended atheist/agnostic.

Her child wasn't even baptized. I know that's tough on my folks...and we don't attend church anymore. I do let them take ds when he wants to go and I've told him he can ask them religious questions for an opposing viewpoint from someone with expertise in the field.

 

I'm still not quite to where I can say I'm entirely an atheist. I'm getting closer though.

I can't reconcile an omnipotent all loving God with what I see.

 

Best wishes for you on your journey.

I'm more at peace with where I am, although I wouldn't be too surprised if I ended up in church again some day...but if I did, I imagine it'd be more for liturgical comfort and community rather than any belief.

 

:grouphug:

[Hoot]

YES!  You stated so much better than I.  Generally, I don't care much about what others think, but I NEED my job, DH is very hung up on what others think, and DS is involved in both the church, the school, and the homeschool aspects.  I don't want others treating him differently because of their narrow-mindedness about me.

 

 

Let me see if I get this....You experienced a paradigm shift. You've changed, but people around you don't really know the depth of these changes. You know how they think and how they believe about certain things because you once thought and believed the same.

Because of this, you have a pretty good idea of how they will react if they knew the truth about your beliefs, and it would not be accepting. You feel pretty certain that AT THE LEAST you would have their pity and become a missionary project. And so, you feel hypocritical by not being honest, but you still value them for other reasons and don't really want to just walk away from them altogether. So you're frustrated and wish they could just get over their own narrow-mindedness.

Is that right? If not, sorry. That's how I feel anyway. :/

 

[Hoot]

Part of that was me... and I don't mean that at all. But I see where you are at to get that thought. I'm sorry I'm still figuring things out and may not have worded things as well as I wish I could. Inerrancy of the Bible and interpreting the Bible critically/historically don't always go together well. When your mind clears a bit from all of this input, go over to patheos.com and read posts by Peter Enns (on evangelical channel, although he is quite progressive). He addresses this all very well, he is an Old Testament scholar. The things he has written have really helped me to come to peace with the God of the Old Testament. It is scholarly, not "just believe" and I greatly appreciate that. You can also get to his articles on his Facebook page and clicking the links there.

 

Thank you.  I'll look him up.  I'm subscribed to a number of Patheos blogs, though I don't think he's one. 

[Hoot]

"How do you know what you believe?"   I'd like to think that I only believe what I think is true.  And, I try to test/discover what is true if I have doubts.  That is why I start with, "What do you doubt?" rather than asking what I believe because the latter tends to end in me really trying to figure out what I *WANT* to believe and my wants and wishes about truth don't make them true, do they?  :)

 

Thank you for your response; it was very helpful, particularly the above. 

[Hoot]

Thank you, Contessa. If ever down the road you might have any thoughts/questions about Orthodoxy I'd be happy to answer them (I receive PM notifications). I've thought about starting an Ask An Orthodox Christian thread, but I'm not an expert, just someone baptized and growing in the faith. And it sounds like you are probably interested in exploring outside of Christianity, and I wish you well on your journey.

 

Actually, I would love it if you started an "Ask an..." thread.  I think that would be fantastic and I would love reading it.  At this point, I don't think I have wholly rejected the POSSIBILITY of ANY belief so I would welcome this type of thread.

[milovany]

Actually, I would love it if you started an "Ask an..." thread.  I think that would be fantastic and I would love reading it.  At this point, I don't think I have wholly rejected the POSSIBILITY of ANY belief so I would welcome this type of thread.

 

I'll think about it and ask some of the other Orthodox here if they're interested.  In the meantime, there IS an "Exploring Orthodoxy" social group here where people post somewhat frequently.  There's also a secret group on Facebook so if you have a FB account and want the link, PM me for it. 

 

[Mergath]

I left a bad, largely african american area of Atlanta with some bad feelings. Would it be appropriate for me to say that I find low income african american individuals to be of the most detestable people I've known? Not the same thing as religion, sure, but why stop at religion? If we're allowed to take out our anger on an entire group of people, because in our small corner of the world we've had some bad experiences let's have at it - race, religion, politics...

 

I never said it was perfectly fine.  Just that we should perhaps try to have a bit of understanding about how strong emotions can lead people to say things in anger.

[Joanne]

 

 

 

In reading through church history, and in the people I know from various denominations, it seems clear that He has given His Spirit across denominations so it appears to me that God is not as concerned that we ace some exam on  beliefs as He is that we continue to seek him and grow in  love for him and for one another. If He wanted us to ace an exam, He could have had Scripture written like a math text, one right answer, no ambiguity, nothing to interpret. He didn't.  We're not asked to have a relationship with a book, but with a Being. In my tradition of evangelicalism, which has high respect for the authority of Scripture as God's word, I think there is a temptation to make a life with God about right ideas and knowledge. Love can get lost--quite ironically, since the book says loving God and each other are the greatest commandments, and warns against knowledge "puffing up".  I think having the Scripture have some mystery in it augments the journey of relationship. But I could be wrong about that. ;)

 

I am very comfortable with different interpretations of stuff outside the creeds because to me, it doesn't affect the core beliefs. What is more dangerous than being wrong when we disagree is if we get all "puffed up" with our "knowledge" and care more about being right than about loving one another.

 

 

Laurie,

There are times we disagree vehemently about issues. So I want to take this opportunity to thank you. Although I have dropped the faith, the words above encapsulate what I felt the last years I believe I was a Christian.

 

Jesus (myth, man, spirit, or savior) was about inclusiveness and the metaphoric meaning of spiritual truths. The irony of literalism is really a sad commentary on the god worshipped.

[Susan C.]

I think this is a truly excellent question that all Christians should ask ourselves. If another believer, also filled with the Spirit, also diligently seeking to know God and understand his word, comes to a different conclusion than I about a passage of Scripture, who I am to be sure I'm the one who is right? It's why humility, rather than certainty, is required, I think. And, personally, I think "being right" isn't the goal anyway.

 

...

 

...

 

...

 

In reading through church history, and in the people I know from various denominations, it seems clear that He has given His Spirit across denominations so it appears to me that God is not as concerned that we ace some exam on  beliefs as He is that we continue to seek him and grow in  love for him and for one another. If He wanted us to ace an exam, He could have had Scripture written like a math text, one right answer, no ambiguity, nothing to interpret. He didn't.  We're not asked to have a relationship with a book, but with a Being. In my tradition of evangelicalism, which has high respect for the authority of Scripture as God's word, I think there is a temptation to make a life with God about right ideas and knowledge. Love can get lost--quite ironically, since the book says loving God and each other are the greatest commandments, and warns against knowledge "puffing up".  I think having the Scripture have some mystery in it augments the journey of relationship. But I could be wrong about that. ;)

 

I am very comfortable with different interpretations of stuff outside the creeds because to me, it doesn't affect the core beliefs. What is more dangerous than being wrong when we disagree is if we get all "puffed up" with our "knowledge" and care more about being right than about loving one another.

 

I read an interesting article about this recently:

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bustle/what-being-a-christianity-me_b_5193774.html?utm_hp_ref=religion

 

[Joanne]

Sorry, I had missed your comment earlier. I don't come from the viewpoint that the Catholic Church was the first church. I believe that the Catholic Church started at a later time and developed into what we have today. I believe that the "church" started after Jesus death and resurrection and was made up of all those who came to believe on Christ at that time. These people were simply called "Christians" (Acts 11:26) not "Catholics" or otherwise. I also believe that there isn't only Catholics and Protestants. I fit into neither category. I believe that there have been true believers all the way down from Jesus time that are in the true church, no matter if they attend a particular denomination today or not.

 

Regarding the Catholic canon, no I do not see it as the inspired and preserved word of God. I see those extra books as being corruptions. My perspective is that Satan has tried to corrupt, replace, and destroy God's word down throughout the ages. This is also why so many bibles have been burnt and destroyed, and why the Bible has been banned. And it is also why so many different Bible versions saying different things exist today. If you are interested in studying the manuscript evidence, you first need to understand that there are two lines of manuscripts. Then it is a matter of finding out which is the true line.

 

 

Teannika,

 

Something that you may not realize about this board. On this board are some of the most educated, researched, experienced women I have EVER met. Many have been involved in church(es) for their entire lives. Many have advanced degrees, an many of them are in theology related or ministry related topics. Several regular posters are Pastors wives. Still another significant percentage are women who have intentionally worked to "be" and "feel" Christian. They researched, read, and prayed. They have read every book you can suggest, and visited every site. They could suggest (or even write ;)) their own.

 

You can't really come here and educate this crowd on issues of born-again Christian spirituality. They are way past Christianity 101, Christianity for Dummies, or and many upper levels.

 

Being an evangelist or apologist *here* is superflouous at best, and insulting at times.

 

Finally, your second paragraph is something that will serve to accelerate a fall from faith - most people quesitoning faith are moving towards inclusion, not exclusion. I disagree with your understanding of church history (and I know a bit about it) but to call Catholic texts corruption is simply *wrong* in terms of Christian spirituality and principles. To juxtapose it with Satan is to further muddy the waters.

 

It is *easy* to look at today's world, prooftext the Bible and use those verses to support your understanding of "rightness". That proves nothing other than the fact that the Bible is long, ponitificates on a variety of subjects, speaks to ideas that have been present since recorded time. You see "proof" and I see people looking to support their decision.

[Teannika]

Teannika,

 

Something that you may not realize about this board. On this board are some of the most educated, researched, experienced women I have EVER met. Many have been involved in church(es) for their entire lives. Many have advanced degrees, an many of them are in theology related or ministry related topics. Several regular posters are Pastors wives. Still another significant percentage are women who have intentionally worked to "be" and "feel" Christian. They researched, read, and prayed. They have read every book you can suggest, and visited every site. They could suggest (or even write ;)) their own.

 

You can't really come here and educate this crowd on issues of born-again Christian spirituality. They are way past Christianity 101, Christianity for Dummies, or and many upper levels.

 

Being an evangelist or apologist *here* is superflouous at best, and insulting at times.

 

Finally, your second paragraph is something that will serve to accelerate a fall from faith - most people quesitoning faith are moving towards inclusion, not exclusion. I disagree with your understanding of church history (and I know a bit about it) but to call Catholic texts corruption is simply *wrong* in terms of Christian spirituality and principles. To juxtapose it with Satan is to further muddy the waters.

 

It is *easy* to look at today's world, prooftext the Bible and use those verses to support your understanding of "rightness". That proves nothing other than the fact that the Bible is long, ponitificates on a variety of subjects, speaks to ideas that have been present since recorded time. You see "proof" and I see people looking to support their decision.

That's fine. I'm happy to agree to disagree. I don't believe that I can change anyone's mind in terms of education. I have said earlier that a person can have great biblical knowledge etc. and still not get saved. I also don't trust the Bible colleges of today because they have left the faith once delivered to the saints and gone off in to apostasy (that's my belief that I'm entitled to.)

 

I also come from the perspective that God doesn't lift up learned men like people do. So I don't trust what men say over the word of God, no matter how many degrees they have. God uses the base things of this world to show his glory through. I'm not threatened by those who have a greater education than myself. I'm glad that God can reveal himself to babes.

 

As to regards to differing interpretations of the Bible, because I believe the Bible verse that gives us the method to read the Bible believe that it can be understood without contradictions. Most people ignore this verse, and because of this we get a lot of confusion and various interpretations in the churches. I also believe that what we can read literally we should. No need to spiritualise it away. (This is my belief and understanding that I am just stating for the sake of saying it.) I don't remember saying anything about "rightness", I remember in one post saying that I don't have all of the answers. I don't pretend to. I do believe that we are to study the Bible to show ourselves approved unto God. He wants us to study it ourselves and not trust others to interpret it for us. That is the Holy Spirit's job.

 

 

'Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.' (2 Timothy 3:7)

[Joanne]

That's fine. I'm happy to agree to disagree. I don't believe that I can change anyone's mind in terms of education. I have said earlier that a person can have great biblical knowledge etc. and still not get saved. I also don't trust the Bible colleges of today because they have left the faith once delivered to the saints and gone off in to apostasy (that's my belief that I'm entitled to.)

 

I also come from the perspective that God doesn't lift up learned men like people do. So I don't trust what men say over the word of God, no matter how many degrees they have. God uses the base things of this world to show his glory through. I'm not threatened by those who have a greater education than myself. I'm glad that God can reveal himself to babes.

 

As to regards to differing interpretations of the Bible, because I believe the Bible verse that gives us the method to read the Bible believe that it can be understood without contradictions. Most people ignore this verse, and because of this we get a lot of confusion and various interpretations in the churches. I also believe that what we can read literally we should. No need to spiritualise it away. (This is my belief and understanding that I am just stating for the sake of saying it.) I don't remember saying anything about "rightness", I remember in one post saying that I don't have all of the answers. I don't pretend to. I do believe that we are to study the Bible to show ourselves approved unto God. He wants us to study it ourselves and not trust others to interpret it for us. That is the Holy Spirit's job.

 

 

'Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.' (2 Timothy 3:7)

 

The bold are perspectives and approaches that are likely to distance you on this board from "believers" and also non believers.

 

You "say" you don't believe you have all the answers, but you sure post in a manner on this topic as if you have it sewn up and that any departure from your view is unequivacobly wrong.

[Teannika]

The bold are perspectives and approaches that are likely to distance you on this board from "believers" and also non believers.

 

You "say" you don't believe you have all the answers, but you sure post in a manner on this topic as if you have it sewn up and that any departure from your view is unequivacobly wrong.

 

The OP asked "How do you KNOW what you believe."

That is where I have been coming from in my posts, because I believe I do know and do have evidence for my faith. I'm not asking for anyone to believe as I do, and I hope I am not coming across as threatening others that they must believe the same.

 

I am interested in hearing how others "know" what they believe as well. It may not sound like I am listening from your end, but I am.

 

I mean no harm.

[albeto.]

Albeto, Do you have a source you can point me to regarding the historical accuracy of the Bible having been falsified?  A number of years ago, there was a book that was highly recommended on the boards.  The author was an athiest historian, but one of the things that I remember from the book was his premise that the Bible has largely been shown to be an accurate historical record. Therefore, even though he doesn't believe it theologically, he accepts it as an historical document.  (I wish I could remember the title and author so I could finish reading it, but alas, I can't. I borrowed it from the library and had to return it before I finished it.)

 

Thank you.

 

A single source that falsifies each point of the bible? Off the top of my head I can't think of one. The entire scientific record debunks the first claims made in the bible, the one of the earth having been created in six days some few thousand years ago. Thus far there exists no historical record of the works of Jesus, the events that surrounded his death and resurrection outside the bible. The accounts of such people as Pliny the Younger, Josephus, Tacitus, etc, have been accounted for and do not support these claims. Perhaps Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion, Sam Harris' The End of Faith, or David Fitzgerald's Nailed: Ten Christian Myths That Show Jesus Never Existed At All. You can watch a talk in which he introduces these things 

(about an hour long, faster than reading a book ;-)).