Luanne Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 It looks to me like they are dumbing it down some so more students can be successful. This is just another way that American is going to drop even further down on the scale of countries who offer a good education. Instead of improving our country's education, they just want to make it look like the students are doing better when in fact they are not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catz Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 Hmmm ... I don't see it exactly that way. Although, I'm not sure why they are dropping the essay component. I think that piece could be interesting for some colleges and could help push some kids over a line or maybe show some holes in a kid with a strong score. Many college applications do require kids to write an essay of some kind anyway, I guess. A friend's husband owned a small company where he would run SAT and ACT prep classes and tutoring, so he is extremely familiar with both and has been working with both for years. He felt like the ACT was more about achievement. He feels SAT as it is, is more about IQ. It sounds to me that the SAT will change to be more like the ACT. It will be less of a game of tricks. I think more states have been tending towards the ACT format because it more accurately reflects a student's high school education. http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/05/living/sat-test-changes-schools/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treestarfae Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/new-sat-essay-optional?utm_content=buffer77b07&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinder Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 Just read about it today. Not sure what to think of it yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barbara H Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 These changes have been in the works for a while. The SAT has been losing market share to the ACT for some time. It isn't just the money they make off the test itself, but also all the long line of versions of the test for younger and younger students. There are states and school districts spending a lot on these tests and it is big business. One thing for students to keep in mind is while the test company may make the essay optional, the ultimate decision is really up to colleges Right now the ACT essay is optional, but many more selective colleges require that students submitting the ACT score for admissions do so "with writing" - which means with the optional essay. So, depending on your student's college goals they may still need to take the essay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catz Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 These changes have been in the works for a while. The SAT has been losing market share to the ACT for some time. It isn't just the money they make off the test itself, but also all the long line of versions of the test for younger and younger students. There are states and school districts spending a lot on these tests and it is big business. One thing for students to keep in mind is while the test company may make the essay optional, the ultimate decision is really up to colleges Right now the ACT essay is optional, but many more selective colleges require that students submitting the ACT score for admissions do so "with writing" - which means with the optional essay. So, depending on your student's college goals they may still need to take the essay. Thank you for clarifying on the essay! I just came across another article that clarified it like you did. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nevergiveup Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 It looks to me like they are dumbing it down some so more students can be successful. This is just another way that American is going to drop even further down on the scale of countries who offer a good education. Instead of improving our country's education, they just want to make it look like the students are doing better when in fact they are not. Why does it matter if they are dumbing down a test when it has been shown that success on the test does not correlate with success in college? What about all the colleges that do not even require the SAT anymore because of this lack of correlation? Have they dumbed down their curriculum? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mimm Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 How does one test for motivation, responsibility and priorities? These qualities probably have a bigger affect on one's future success at college than whether that person took AP English or the regular English class. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnM Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 Some of this comes in the form of recommendations letters. Some comes in the form of community service hours (where is your heart, passion?) and some comes in the form of extra-curricular actives (priorities). Some colleges don't really take a lot of stock in the test evaluation and give more weight to the above. And you know what? For 90% of the jobs out there, an Ivy League or top rated school is not a necessity. Dawn How does one test for motivation, responsibility and priorities? These qualities probably have a bigger affect on one's future success at college than whether that person took AP English or the regular English class. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umsami Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 Whatever changes are made, I would like to see that kids who actually go to college are college-ready. It shocks me how many remedial classes kids take. I'm not sure of the solution, perhaps it's a different kind of diploma kind of like the Regent's in NY…but kids who are college bound, should leave high school prepared and able to do college-level work. If they can't, there is something seriously wrong. I took both the ACT and SAT. I had no plans to take the ACT, but my friend asked if I would go with her, so I did it on a whim. No prep or anything and scored extremely high. I did just OK on the SAT (no prep either). Turns out in hindsight, the ACT was a far better predictor of success as well as areas of competence. I hated science in high school, yet scored in the 99th percentile on the ACT Science portion. After my bachelor's degree, I went back and did a post-bac pre-med program and thrived. Had I looked more favorably on the ACT (it was not well regarded at my school for some reason), I may have actually taken some science classes as an undergrad, and easily could have become a physics major. I loved physics when I took it, but felt it was too late to go back and pursue it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAMom Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 There's a nice, long discussion of this over on the high school board worthy of reading. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luanne Posted March 8, 2014 Author Share Posted March 8, 2014 Why does it matter if they are dumbing down a test when it has been shown that success on the test does not correlate with success in college? What about all the colleges that do not even require the SAT anymore because of this lack of correlation? Have they dumbed down their curriculum? I think it is a vicious circle. They dumb down the education of the students in high school, now they dumb down the test to get into college. The next step is to dumb down the college education. Pretty soon, Americans are going to have to send their students overseas to get a good education PERIOD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luanne Posted March 8, 2014 Author Share Posted March 8, 2014 I thought the SAT was supposed to show if one was prepared to do well in college. It doesn't do that. It is more likely to show one's economic background that anything else. It severely misses the mark. I've read it over and over again that there is no evidence that it is an indicator of future college success. So if the changes do a better job of showing that, then I'm all for it. No clue if will do that at this point, but they have to start with some changes don't they? I don't see how making the test easier is going to be a good change though. Yes, they need to make changes, but not make it easier. The way the new test looks, just about anyone will be able to get into a college prepared or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QueenCat Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 I think it is a vicious circle. They dumb down the education of the students in high school, now they dumb down the test to get into college. The next step is to dumb down the college education. Pretty soon, Americans are going to have to send their students overseas to get a good education PERIOD. The essay portion of the test was only a part of the SAT for a few years. I'd hardly call that dumbing down the test. If it's not something the colleges care about seeing, there isn't much point in having it be a part of the test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luanne Posted March 8, 2014 Author Share Posted March 8, 2014 Getting rid of vocabulary... not penalizing students for missing answers ... sounds like dumbing down to me. They are so concerned about the culture of America (which isn't good right now) that they want to make sure anyone can get into college. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wapiti Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 The essay portion of the test was only a part of the SAT for a few years. I'd hardly call that dumbing down the test. If it's not something the colleges care about seeing, there isn't much point in having it be a part of the test. FWIW, I don't think the essay is the change that most are referring to as representing a dumbing-down. The vocab section is being made easier and the complete-the-sentence section is being replaced by an order-the-paragraphs section (replacing grammar with....sequence-guessing skills?), geometry is almost nowhere to be found among the main math sections, etc. Besides, the top schools are likely to require the essay anyway even though it is "optional" and even though they may not really use that score in particular. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 I think you are jumping to some unfounded conclusions here. I am reserving judgement on if the test is easier or not until I see the test and the new prep materials. It looks to me like they are dumbing it down some so more students can be successful. This is just another way that American is going to drop even further down on the scale of countries who offer a good education. Instead of improving our country's education, they just want to make it look like the students are doing better when in fact they are not. The SAT is an optional tool used by colleges. If colleges prefer the ACT more and more, it is inevitable that the SAT will make changes to be more achievement oriented than vague. I think it is a vicious circle. They dumb down the education of the students in high school, now they dumb down the test to get into college. The next step is to dumb down the college education. Pretty soon, Americans are going to have to send their students overseas to get a good education PERIOD. I hardly think this is the case. My son is getting an amazing education from a mix of sources right here in the states. I don't see sending him overseas for anything more than an educational experience, not to replace his education here. I don't see how making the test easier is going to be a good change though. Yes, they need to make changes, but not make it easier. The way the new test looks, just about anyone will be able to get into a college prepared or not. Have you seen the new test or just read about it? As it is, the SAT has NOTHING to do with how prepared someone is for college. I received an excellent score so that's not sour grapes talking. Also, it bears noting that there are MANY college options for people who have not even taken the SAT at all. "Two and two" options starting at a community college and then transferring to a 4 year don't require any SAT score at all. Getting rid of vocabulary... not penalizing students for missing answers ... sounds like dumbing down to me. They are so concerned about the culture of America (which isn't good right now) that they want to make sure anyone can get into college. I received a near perfect score on the verbal section on the strength of my vocabulary from reading voraciously. But you know what? My vocabulary skills have very little to do with my college success. As I point out to my son who has an amazing vocabulary from reading and spelling bee prep and MCT materials, it is usually best to speak and write plainly and clearly without flashing off $5 words. It has nothing to do with "dumbing down" but everything to do with writing well. Have you read anything from the College Board that the test changes are because they want anyone to get into college? Or is that another assumption? I don't know if I will like the changes or not. I just don't think I should rush to judgment on what the new test will be like. The main goals seems to be competing with the ACT which has edged out the SAT. Also, the new test will apparently disallow calculator use on most math sections. That doesn't sound like a step towards making it an easier test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nevergiveup Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 Getting rid of vocabulary... not penalizing students for missing answers ... sounds like dumbing down to me. They are so concerned about the culture of America (which isn't good right now) that they want to make sure anyone can get into college. Why not allow anyone who wants to go to college to get in? This is a serious question--I do not mean to sound snarky. If they can't pass the course, they flunk, don't they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umsami Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 Why not allow anyone who wants to go to college to get in? This is a serious question--I do not mean to sound snarky. If they can't pass the course, they flunk, don't they? Not addressed at me…but...I guess for me there are already so many predatory "colleges" out there. If they do not have the skills to make it in college, and you encourage them to undertake a lot of debt in order to go or to gain a worthless degree, then that is wrong. Not every career requires college, nor is every person college material. We need to rethink our education and have more apprenticeships and vocational options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatHomeschoolDad Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 We need to rethink our education and have more apprenticeships and vocational options. You're right on the money there. Unfortunately, vo-techs are morphing into academic academies, defeating the purpose of training that next generation of plumbers and welders. At least that's the local trend here. We won't see the problem for a few more years, when this ideal educated populace needs their sewer lines snaked out after all the current plumbers are retired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frances Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 Here's a lengthy article explaining the story behind the changes to the SAT: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/09/magazine/the-story-behind-the-sat-overhaul.html?_r=0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nevergiveup Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 Not addressed at me…but...I guess for me there are already so many predatory "colleges" out there. If they do not have the skills to make it in college, and you encourage them to undertake a lot of debt in order to go or to gain a worthless degree, then that is wrong. Not every career requires college, nor is every person college material. We need to rethink our education and have more apprenticeships and vocational options. I wholeheartedly agree with this. Neither of my kids are college bound in spite of my having a degree and my husband having 4 degrees. My older son is a mechanic. However, I still think that anyone who wants to go to college should. When does personal responsibility come into play? No one is twisting their arm to go. No one is twisting their arm to go into debt. They should still check out the college ahead of time--information on predatory colleges is out there. They should still research jobs availability in their area of interest--legitimate colleges still offer degrees in areas with extremely low job openings. You are right that not every degree requires college, but the bogus SAT is not keeping anyone from getting a degree anyway. Frankly, I was disgusted with the local high school: it never once mentioned any apprenticeships. Meanwhile, I know of a coppersmith who owns his own successful business who cannot find anyone to take it over when he retires, and there is the local car dealership that cannot hire enough mechanics, although part of that problem stems from kids not really wanting to do manual labor...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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