Resources written to the student. Looking for a list of rich self-teaching materials.

[Alte Veste Academy]

As I said in another thread, I keep having (and apparently ignoring) the same epiphany about DS11. He loves self-teaching resources, just thrives with them. We have used relatively few up until now, but I would like to know of more. However, I am anti-busywork, and I have seen some resources written to the student that feel too...self-contained rather than applicable to the bigger picture of learning. 

 

If anyone knows of meaningful resources written to the student, I am all ears. He is going into 6th, and is an all around very strong student. 

[quark]

Art of Problem Solving! :)

 

Will come back and add ideas as I remember/ find them.

[SebastianCat]

My 6th grader has thoroughly enjoyed Getting Started with Latin this year - completely self-taught, with an audio lecture for each lesson.   Exactly what I was looking for as well.

[Halcyon]

MY dS likes self-directed stuff too, as long as I sit next to him :glare: 

Caesar's English
Latin Prep

Figuratively Speaking

Tablet Class (he does this without any input from me)

[TarynB]

My DS is that way too.  :001_smile:

 

How about:

 

Foerster (algebra and up)

Writing With Style, depending on the student

Ellen McHenry's science

Killgallon for middle & high school

Hake Grammar, but might be too dry/workbooky for some

Visual Link Spanish (link in my signature)

[Chrysalis Academy]

Hmmmm, well, Shannon is using All in one homeschool's Easy Peasy Spanish completely on her own.  She goes to the site and follows the directions, doesn't need me a bit.  She also does typing like this.

 

She's using Zaccaro's Real World Algebra independently, it's written to the student for sure.  Jousting Armadillos is also written to the student, in a really wonderfully conversational tone, although we do the problems orally/together sometimes.

 

She did Intelligo Astronomy on her own.  She really loved it.

 

She uses Killgallon's Grammar for Middle school completely on her own.

 

I think that's it (besides reading and writing assignments, of course, but that's not curriculum).  I don't think any of it is busy work.

[Soror]

Great idea for a post. I've been disappointed with most "independent" hs work as well so I'm intereested to see the answers. 

 

I don't know the exact age range that you're looking for so I'll throw this out here:

 

Writing and Rhetoric is written to the student, although only the books for grades 3rd/4th are released as of now, the books for grades 4th/5th are being released this Spring and Summer.  It will eventually be up to 8th grade (iirc).

 

[DragonFaerie]

Saxon Math

Connect the Thoughts

Growing With Grammar

 

 

 

[Pen]

thinking...

[lewelma]

WWS

KISS grammar

Art of Argument

AoPS

ABRSM music theory

IGCSE textbooks (from UK, in all subjects)

Latin Prep

[Alte Veste Academy]

Thanks for the ideas! I am specifically thinking of DS11, but I should look ahead for my younger kids too. Should have probably put this on the K-8 board, now that I think of it.

 

We've already got math covered with AoPS, and that has been a big part of my epiphany. He is very happy there. He wanted to learn Latin, and I didn't want to teach it, so he is happily using Lively Latin on his own. The Killgallon suggestion is interesting to me. I've heard people saying kids use it on their own, but I've been using it with all the kids together. Maybe it's time to just hand him the next book in the lineup and have him own it. He does enjoy the exercises. 

 

It can be a fine line with him. He likes a buddy-partner in learning but doesn't like to be taught (and that has been some fun, fun, BARRELS of fun over the years, let me tell you! :lol: ). So I think self-teaching materials that I can supervise and partner up with him on sometimes might be a good future for us. 

 

And quark, I bought your Discovering Voice suggestion. I think that looks pretty doggone good as a self-teaching language resource. He is in a good groove with his writing, and I think that will add some polish. I have ruled WWS out for him (at least for now—too parts to whole, too much in general). Right now he is enjoying Warriner's Composition: Models and Exercises (recommended by Chrysalis a while back, I think?). 

[Alte Veste Academy]

Great idea for a post. I've been disappointed with most "independent" hs work as well so I'm intereested to see the answers. 

 

I don't know the exact age range that you're looking for so I'll throw this out here:

 

Writing and Rhetoric is written to the student, although only the books for grades 3rd/4th are released as of now, the books for grades 4th/5th are being released this Spring and Summer.  It will eventually be up to 8th grade (iirc).

 

Thanks! I am using the first W&R book with my youngest. He loves it! I am very excited about the future of this series. It excites me almost as much as BA did. 

[Woodland Mist Academy]

 

 

We've already got math covered with AoPS, and that has been a big part of my epiphany. He is very happy there. He wanted to learn Latin, and I didn't want to teach it, so he is happily using Lively Latin on his own. The Killgallon suggestion is interesting to me. I've heard people saying kids use it on their own, but I've been using it with all the kids together. Maybe it's time to just hand him the next book in the lineup and have him own it. He does enjoy the exercises. 

 

It can be a fine line with him. He likes a buddy-partner in learning but doesn't like to be taught (and that has been some fun, fun, BARRELS of fun over the years, let me tell you! :lol: ). So I think self-teaching materials that I can supervise and partner up with him on sometimes might be a good future for us. 

 

 

AoPS was the epiphany and turning point for us as well. I just wish it hadn't taken me so long to understand. . .

 

I didn't see your other post you mentioned up thread. I'm sorry I missed it. I would have liked to hear your experience with this. Our days are very much what you have described with the buddy-partner. I don't teach anything anymore, but we are interacting and discussing all day long.

 

I'm pretty sure everything we use has been mentioned, or you are already familiar with it and/or using it. So I just wanted to say I can relate! :)

[Pen]

Here it seems like some days almost any program works for self teaching, other days nothing.

(today is a bad day--at least as far as doing an hour of math minimum goes...still waiting for the last 15 minutes and getting the first 45 done was hard...he did 30 min on his own as Math Detective, then we did 15 together as mental math practice.   If learning about native Americans and pirates is fine, then it was an okay day. Maybe I should just go over to unschooling. Sigh.)

 

Motivation and interest seem to be at least as important as the program. Once there is an "I want to learn about _____." then many resources suddenly make that possible and the learning soars.  Without that interest and motivation, nothing seems to work all that well. 

[Alte Veste Academy]

AoPS was the epiphany and turning point for us as well. I just wish it hadn't taken me so long to understand. . .

 

I didn't see your other post you mentioned up thread. I'm sorry I missed it. I would have liked to hear your experience with this. Our days are very much what you have described with the buddy-partner. I don't teach anything anymore, but we are interacting and discussing all day long.

 

I'm pretty sure everything we use has been mentioned, or you are already familiar with it and/or using it. So I just wanted to say I can relate! :)

I didn't say much because it would have derailed the thread. In response to quark's post about the Discovering Voice book (which I received today and LOVE!), I wrote that DS11 responds best to materials written to him. (I think it's because he feels like he is teaching himself instead of being taught, which is obviously highly offensive. <insert irate emoticon that I can't insert on my iPad>) He spent 3 hours straight on the backyard swing the other day, all by his lonesome, working through self-teaching materials (while swinging wildly, but whatever). I think that's when I had the epiphany for approximately the millionth time...

 

My thoughts on it are pretty jumbled though. I think we are at a major crossroads with school because I have been so used to keeping my kids together for so much of our learning. That has worked so well for us. Of course, now DS11 is growing into more serious work, and he can't stay still and move on at the same time, which means I have to adjust us all.

 

I have him do stuff and it goes well or doesn't, I thought randomly because I am super obtuse. LOL Now though, I am finally figuring out that the common denominator for success is using something written to him, which (thankfully) does include assignment instructions I write to him (started doing some of this after feedback from a thread on independence over the summer). BUT he dislikes direct instruction (I would have paid through the nose or have figured this out in first grade!). LOVES to discuss and do Q&A, can totally deal with being wrong/redirected/asked to take a different POV, but HATES being told what to do. Maybe he inherited my control issues! :lol:

[Alte Veste Academy]

Here it seems like some days almost any program works for self teaching, other days nothing.

(today is a bad day--at least as far as doing an hour of math minimum goes...still waiting for the last 15 minutes and getting the first 45 done was hard...he did 30 min on his own as Math Detective, then we did 15 together as mental math practice. If learning about native Americans and pirates is fine, then it was an okay day. Maybe I should just go over to unschooling. Sigh.)

 

Motivation and interest seem to be at least as important as the program. Once there is an "I want to learn about _____." then many resources suddenly make that possible and the learning soars. Without that interest and motivation, nothing seems to work all that well.

We had a bad day yesterday. Well, one kid was perfect, one was medium, one was pure evil. ;) Today was better. Motivation and interest are HUGE, yes. Engagement comes along with those two.

[EndOfOrdinary]

We use the a Great Courses a lot for this. The topics are dense and provide discussions that are quite wonderful. It is a way for my son to have me also be a student, since most are about subjects I know some but not tons. Not exactly direct instruction, but definitely not Mom-taught.

 

I'm definitely interested in to thread. There aren't many more months I am going to be able to delude myself into thinking Mom-taught subjects are going to work. The sooner I transition, the more productive we will probably be.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

We use the a Great Courses a lot for this. The topics are dense and provide discussions that are quite wonderful. It is a way for my son to have me also be a student, since most are about subjects I know some but not tons. Not exactly direct instruction, but definitely not Mom-taught.

 

 

We recently joined Audible for the audio versions of The Great Courses. (Watching the lectures doesn't appeal to us, but listening to them during commutes does.)

 

Also, last year I started buying duplicates of some of the books we use. It's hard for me to express what a difference this has made. Even now some of our trickiest moments  :sneaky2: :boxing_smiley: :angry:

are when I am pretty sure the answer is right in front of her, but I need to get past her to get to the book that she insists isn't in the least bit helpful. When I have my own copy, I can mutter in a stage whisper the thought process I'm having as I'm looking for the information. Often this triggers something in her, and she starts doing the same, or she comes up with an even better idea about how to find it. (Then it sometimes becomes a race to find it first or a contest about which one of us thought of what. . . but, good sportsmanship, dealing with competitive natures, and remembering to act like adult are probably best left for a different thread. :tongue_smilie: )

 

I am often able to find two used copies for less than the price of one new copy. Or sometimes I buy one print and one Kindle version. It just depends on what type of book it is. For the times buying two is cost prohibitive, we try to come to an agreement about which one of us gets it when. (Why does the book someone else happens to be reading always look better than any other book in the house? ;) )

 

ETA: I forgot to mention that both of us reading through the same books allows her to point out interesting information just as often as I do. The same is true for the myriad educational magazines we read during meals. Speaking of educational magazines. . .they qualify as rich self-teaching materials here. They have been one of the biggest hits this year.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Woodland, I always find your descriptions of how you and Lily study together so inspiring!  I want to go to your school.

 

I've been thinking about this thread since last night - that's how it goes with good ones, right?  I realize that maybe I need some terms defined.  What do you consider self-teaching vs. you teaching vs. buddy-learning/discussion?   I realize that while I put out some resources that Shannon uses independently up thread, I don't feel like I "teach" her very much at all this year.  Some things (math) we sometimes do side-by-side or a portion of the lesson orally, but I don't feel like I"m teaching her, the book us.  I might help her through something she gets stuck on, but more and more, I'm not actually teaching math.

 

It's like that with most subjects - some things I read aloud and we discuss, some things she reads then we discuss, sometimes for writing I give her an assignment then she goes and does it and comes back for feedback.  Where's the line between me teaching and self teaching? If I read a book out loud, and pause and we discuss it, am I teaching her? Or is the book teaching both of us?  

 

We had this nice moment yesterday when we were both sitting in the living room, she was reading HO about culture in the 60s, and I was on the laptop.  She kept pausing to ask questions - somewhat random, but related to her reading - or telling me something more she knew about the topic she was reading about, and it was really nice.  The book was teaching her, but I was there for company, amplification, listening, and talking about what she was reading.  I sure wasn't teaching, though.

 

What do I teach?  Hmm.  Well, we do spelling once a week.  That's probably sort of me teaching.  And after she learns the words, we do MCT's WWtW orally, including he quiz.  I don't feel like that's me teaching, though.  I'll do set-up/prelection "mini lectures" on history, or writing assignments, and then we'll do a wrap-up discussion when the topic is done (and discuss readings throughout).  The little pre-lection lecture is me teaching, maybe.

 

Am I just being obtuse?  I realized the more I thought about it that while I spend a lot of time *with* Shannon, I'm not sure that much of it qualifies as "teaching" her.  A lot of it is making sure the next thing is ready when she is., making sure she's prepared for what's next, discussing what she's done, and providing evaluation and feedback on written work.

 

I have been teaching her to take notes on texts, and plan to do so with lectures next year.  Maybe that counts?

[Pen]

We recently joined Audible for the audio versions of The Great Courses. (Watching the lectures doesn't appeal to us, but listening to them during commutes does.)

 

Also, last year I started buying duplicates of some of the books we use. It's hard for me to express what a difference this has made. Even now some of our trickiest moments  :sneaky2: :boxing_smiley: :angry:

are when I am pretty sure the answer is right in front of her, but I need to get past her to get to the book that she insists isn't in the least bit helpful. When I have my own copy, I can mutter in a stage whisper the thought process I'm having as I'm looking for the information. Often this triggers something in her, and she starts doing the same, or she comes up with an even better idea about how to find it. (Then it sometimes becomes a race to find it first or a contest about which one of us thought of what. . . but, good sportsmanship, dealing with competitive natures, and remembering to act like adult are probably best left for a different thread. :tongue_smilie: )

 

I am often able to find two used copies for less than the price of one new copy. Or sometimes I buy one print and one Kindle version. It just depends on what type of book it is. For the times buying two is cost prohibitive, we try to come to an agreement about which one of us gets it when. (Why does the book someone else happens to be reading always look better than any other book in the house? ;) )

 

ETA: I forgot to mention that both of us reading through the same books allows her to point out interesting information just as often as I do. The same is true for the myriad educational magazines we read during meals. Speaking of educational magazines. . .they qualify as rich self-teaching materials here. They have been one of the biggest hits this year.

 

This is interesting, and maybe fits with something I am noticing too.

 

This morning my ds asked me not to read his books, because if I do, then he does not want to. (This had to do with fiction books where I was prereading, but I think it applies also to other things.) He not only wants to self-teach, he wants to be first, ahead of me. He wants to be able to tell me all about something, not the other way around.

 

For language, he chose German, a language I have never taken.

Although we need to find something new now, Duolingo, btw, is great for self-teaching, and might not yet have been mentioned.

 

For the final 15 min. of math, he read in Gonick's Cartoon Calculus -- I have had Calculus, but forgotten it, so I had gotten the book to review myself, but had not read it yet. DS seemed to like getting out ahead of me there. ETA I was going to say something about it perhaps being a good idea to have finished Algebra etc. first, and then changed my mind and decided that if it gets too hard to understand it will also probably get too boring to keep reading, and, who knows...if the motivation thing is there, maybe he will somehow figure it out.

 

And, in re magazines, again, he seems to like to find things first...    Discover (the adult one) btw has been a good source here, not every issue has things of interest to kids, but some do.  And I also realized that for me at an age slightly older than my ds now is, Scientific American is something that I still remember things from.  We do not have subscriptions to either right now, but I may consider that.

[Alte Veste Academy]

We have done a few Great Courses together, and I am eager to do more. He learns so well from audio/video resources. We go through a lot of documentaries.

 

Reading the same book... We have been doing that, but sharing a copy. He's not one to mind reading one book on a shared lap though (although we usually do that just to discuss, and I usually do my reading at night). If I start doubling up on books, DH might finally do the freak-out he's been sweetly holding back for years. LOL (We are military and have a weight allowance that we are pushing right up against.) Magazines have been big this year for us too. We got some subscriptions for Christmas in addition to the Carus magazines we already had coming.

 

I admit sometimes we are growing into a fine line between teaching and interacting. As long as he is learning, I'm not too worried about the technicalities though. I (guffaw, guffaw) do not consider myself the master of information. :lol: With three kids though, I am starting to have issues with juggling. I've always read most of what they've read, at least the spines for each subject. But as DS11 reads tougher material that he needs support to fully digest, and DD reads so darn much material that she is eager to chat about, and DS7 still wants so much interaction about most of what he reads... Something has got to be adjusted... 

[Chrysalis Academy]

We have done a few Great Courses together, and I am eager to do more. He learns so well from audio/video resources. We go through a lot of documentaries.

 

Reading the same book... We have been doing that, but sharing a copy. He's not one to mind reading one book on a shared lap though (although we usually do that just to discuss, and I usually do my reading at night). If I start doubling up on books, DH might finally do the freak-out he's been sweetly holding back for years. LOL (We are military and have a weight allowance that we are pushing right up against.) Magazines have been big this year for us too. We got some subscriptions for Christmas in addition to the Carus magazines we already had coming.

 

I admit sometimes we are growing into a fine line between teaching and interacting. As long as he is learning, I'm not too worried about the technicalities though. I (guffaw, guffaw) do not consider myself the master of information. :lol: With three kids though, I am starting to have issues with juggling. I've always read most of what they've read, at least the spines for each subject. But as DS11 reads tougher material that he needs support to fully digest, and DD reads so darn much material that she is eager to chat about, and DS7 still wants so much interaction about most of what he reads... Something has got to be adjusted... 

 

 

I hear you! I've just got two, but they both need a ton of interaction (if not teaching) that adjustments - frequent ones- are always in order.

 

About the "master of information" thing - I'm cracking up, because when Shannon was reading yesterday, and piping up with questions or things to talk about, I was soooooo glad I had my laptop with a Google screen open in my lap - "Mom, how old is Queen Elizabeth?  How old was she when she became queen?" stuff like that, constantly! It's so nice to be able to just look it up, provide the answer, and move on . . . . it's amazing to think how much things have changed, how different our attitude today is to information compared to when we were kids.

[Alte Veste Academy]

Pen, Duolingo is great. The kids are using it for Spanish, along with our smattering of other resources. 

 

My oldest DS is like that with wanting to know stuff I don't. The more I think of it, the more I realize he does do some impressive stuff without me or ahead of me. He does love to feel like an expert telling me about stuff he knows and I don't.

 

The places he is independent are definitely the places where he is internally motivated to learn more, which is perfectly logical. When I am ignorant, his troubleshooting skills go through the roof. Hmmm. Another epiphany? When I am not ignorant, I think I rescue him too much and don't force him to troubleshoot. I'm not looking for anything close to total independence on his part, but I'm figuring out that I need to encourage greater sticktoitiveness for problem-solving/troubleshooting before giving up and asking me for help. I think I've been guilty of doing too much thinking for him.

[Alte Veste Academy]

I hear you! I've just got two, but they both need a ton of interaction (if not teaching) that adjustments - frequent ones- are always in order.

 

About the "master of information" thing - I'm cracking up, because when Shannon was reading yesterday, and piping up with questions or things to talk about, I was soooooo glad I had my laptop with a Google screen open in my lap - "Mom, how old is Queen Elizabeth?  How old was she when she became queen?" stuff like that, constantly! It's so nice to be able to just look it up, provide the answer, and move on . . . . it's amazing to think how much things have changed, how different our attitude today is to information compared to when we were kids.

 

Yeah, I can't tell you how many times DH or I have wondered about something aloud and the kids just look at us like we have two heads. "Just Google it," they say. Like, duh... 

[MEmama]

Following...

 

Our homeschool is definitely more of the self-directed-as-long-as-I'm-sitting-next-to-him variety as well. All day discussions, but really not much actual teaching. It's reassuring to read about others operating like this too!

 

DS really started asking for more independence last year (4th), and we were both rewarded when I stepped far back from math (his favorite subject, but one he does very differently than I do). I still lurk close by, but I'm generally not allowed to sit at the table while he's working. :)

 

He's taking an online programming class this year, and as much as I want to do it with him (fun!), I've resisted the temptation. It's been SUCH a great opportunity for him on so many levels: it's a real life application for practicing typing, it's completely independent so he has to find his own solutions when he gets stuck, and it's been a great introduction to the world of taking a class online, something I'm sure he'll utilize more in the near future. Interestingly, despite the fact that DH and I are of zero help, this is one subject where he doesn't get frustrated at all if it gets tough. Instead, it's like he's thriving on being in control of handling it himself. Given his perfectionist tendencies, that's a huge win.

 

So far, this logic stage progression is my favorite yet! So fun to watch them spread their wings... :)

[Guest ianh82]

You should check out ATLT's Lost Function prealgebra/algebra instructional video game. This game would be perfect for your son, if he wants to learn independently, and is only about $25:

 

https://www.atltgames.com/lostfunction/

 

Students are immersed in a virtual society that has lost its ability to do math. The student's job is to solve real world math problems to help the townspeople out. To learn the math required to solve the problems, an extensive prealgebra curriculum is incorporated into a math learning tablet. This includes instructional videos, reading, and guided practice problems.

 

Additionally, as the student is going through the math problems in the game, an interactive tutor identifies which problems the student is having trouble with and provides him/her with remediation. Students are rewarded for doing well with fun Math Brain Breaks that are pretty addicting.

 

My kid has used the game and loves it! He really enjoys doing math with the game, and I think he has learned a lot from it. I definitely recommend it.

 

 

[HS Mom in NC]

Some we particularly liked for independent study were:

 

Greenleaf Guides for Greece, Rome, Ancient Literature from Greenleaf Press

Martin Cothran's Logic (Traditional Logic 1, Traditional Logic 2, Material Logic, Rhetoric) from Memoria Press

Writing With Skill 1 and 2 by Susan Wise Bauer

 

We used the 36 week file folder system for each kid when they were able to work on their own.  It was very helpful to have it all planned, printed out, assembled and ready to go for the firs day of school.  There was a Friday at 3:00pm deadline.  If you wanted to do something else on Friday you had to finish early as all you week's work was in the file waiting for you.

 

 

[mommymilkies]

I'll add Galore Park materials, and Oak Meadow after ~6th grade. Oh, CGP practice books, too.

[Alte Veste Academy]

Following...

 

Our homeschool is definitely more of the self-directed-as-long-as-I'm-sitting-next-to-him variety as well. All day discussions, but really not much actual teaching. It's reassuring to read about others operating like this too!

 

DS really started asking for more independence last year (4th), and we were both rewarded when I stepped far back from math (his favorite subject, but one he does very differently than I do). I still lurk close by, but I'm generally not allowed to sit at the table while he's working. :)

 

He's taking an online programming class this year, and as much as I want to do it with him (fun!), I've resisted the temptation. It's been SUCH a great opportunity for him on so many levels: it's a real life application for practicing typing, it's completely independent so he has to find his own solutions when he gets stuck, and it's been a great introduction to the world of taking a class online, something I'm sure he'll utilize more in the near future. Interestingly, despite the fact that DH and I are of zero help, this is one subject where he doesn't get frustrated at all if it gets tough. Instead, it's like he's thriving on being in control of handling it himself. Given his perfectionist tendencies, that's a huge win.

 

So far, this logic stage progression is my favorite yet! So fun to watch them spread their wings... :)

DS is doing his first online online programming class too, except that I did not want to learn it, so I made it clear that it would be his thing. He does not consider it part of school, more of a hobby. Fine by me! I like him having something he owns completely, something I can't rescue him from.

[Alte Veste Academy]

Thanks for the additional suggestions!

[Pen]

As I said in another thread, I keep having (and apparently ignoring) the same epiphany about DS11. He loves self-teaching resources, just thrives with them. We have used relatively few up until now, but I would like to know of more. However, I am anti-busywork, and I have seen some resources written to the student that feel too...self-contained rather than applicable to the bigger picture of learning. 

 

If anyone knows of meaningful resources written to the student, I am all ears. He is going into 6th, and is an all around very strong student. 

 

On the flip side of the question: What resources were you mainly using that are Not self-teaching, and what keeps them from being self-teaching?

[Alte Veste Academy]

On the flip side of the question: What resources were you mainly using that are Not self-teaching, and what keeps them from being self-teaching?

 

Aw, man. Your seemingly simple question has sent my mind spinning. I think it's probably all the group content/discussion we do, along with some intensive partnership work that is starting to require lots more one-on-one time in the afternoons than the "official schedule" currently allows for. This is stuff I don't want to give up or make independent and stuff that would be hard to make self-teaching without finding the Holy Grail of perfect resources for each subject. Even then, something would be missing in the mix. Your question makes me realize that it's not so much the stuff I use, but how I use it. And some subjects are just fueled by group energy, like how we're doing our geography/calendar year. How boring it would be to assign that independently vs discussing/debating issues as a group.

 

Even when I assign him something to do by himself, we edit or discuss it afterward. Right now I'm assigning stuff from Warriner's, so he will do the initial work on his own, but then we sit down together and partner up to talk through edits. This is where we really get heavy into grammar instruction too. He is a whole to parts kid, so this is where it ultimately sticks. We do Voyages in English, but each kid and I go over the textbook lesson together, all orally, then they do the workbook page(s) on their own. If I do the lesson with them, it sticks. If not, they will sometimes just go through the motions, leaving me nothing to work with when we sit down to do the nitty-gritty of writing and editing. 

 

Sometimes, especially when working on something new, we will just write something together from the start because, although he does not like to be taught, he enjoys and benefits from seeing me model the skills I expect him to use. He had the biggest moment of enlightenment the other day when I was in the middle of heavily editing something I was writing, and it was about something I never would have really thought to explicitly teach him. I cut a big chunk of my work out of the center of my writing and pasted it onto the next page. He asked me why I did that and I told him because I didn't like it. So he asked why didn't I just delete it. I said because it has an idea in it that I don't want to lose. The idea is good, and I don't want to forget it, but the writing was no good, and it was interrupting the flow where it was, how it was written. Well, that was a great lesson, but that kind of incidental teaching, the kind that appears to be so valuable to him, takes time. Time that I am THRILLED to give, mind you! I would love to spend a few dedicated hours intensively working with each of my kids...and therein lies the seed of my growing discontent. LOL 

 

For the past few years, what has worked best for me (with three kids close in age) has been to keep them together for content in the morning and then do individual skill work with them in the afternoon. We've made some minor adjustments over the past couple of years, like having my older two do some independent work while I am working with someone else, but I'm starting to recognize that they are not getting enough of my one-on-one attention OR enough time to do independent and/or self-teaching assignments. So I'm going to have to tweak the schedule again, which is a bummer, because it was so perfect. Evolution is hard. :tongue_smilie:

 

Hmm. So I want to give him a bit more self-teaching stuff and increase his independence, but the schedule has to change in order for him to have time to complete assignments and still give me a good amount of one-on-one time with him AND with DD and younger DS...AND still allow for some group content work and discussion, because we just enjoy it. I can't imagine how people with more kids do it! 

 

I am sure this sounds very convoluted to everyone listening. 

[Chrysalis Academy]

Actually it sounds exactly like what is going on over here, just with two kids who are too far apart to combine very effectively!

 

When I've posted in the past about having a hard time fitting it all in, I've tended to get responses like "Your 6th grader should/could be working mostly independently"  Yeah, but but but - while she can work independently, clearly, and does every day, the quality of her education suffers if she doesn't get daily time with me - for discussion, for prelection, for feedback on assignments, for modelling, and for a small amount of direct teaching.  Even though there is very little I am teaching her, in the sense of standing up in front and lecturing, my interaction with her is critical to the quality of her education.  Just because a kid can go off and do assigned work for 5 or 6 hours a day, doesn't mean that's the best thing for them, right?

 

Anyway, gotta go teach a math lesson now . . . but just wanted to say yes, it sounds convoluted, but it makes *perfect* sense.  !

[Woodland Mist Academy]

 

Anyway, gotta go teach a math lesson now . . .

 

Did you not read the thread title? :toetap05:   :sneaky2:  What is this teaching a math lesson business? ;)

 

In all seriousness, I've been thinking about what you said, and I agree. I can say I don't teach, or I teach all day long. Both are true!

 

I just finished a long and involved teaching session . Lily was fully attentive and interested, so it's not that she isn't open to any teaching by me or that there is never a need for me to teach. So, what I said earlier about not teaching anything isn't exactly true. at. all. :ph34r:

 

It's hard to define what truly goes on, isn't it?

[Chrysalis Academy]

Did you not read the thread title? :toetap05:   :sneaky2:  What is this teaching a math lesson business? ;)

 

In all seriousness, I've been thinking about what you said, and I agree. I can say I don't teach, or I teach all day long. Both are true!

 

I just finished a long and involved teaching session . Lily was fully attentive and interested, so it's not that she isn't open to any teaching by me or that there is never a need for me to teach. So, what I said earlier about not teaching anything isn't exactly true. at. all. :ph34r:

 

It's hard to define what truly goes on, isn't it?

 

:lol: Exactly!  I went to go "teach" a math lesson, but turned out I just sat there while she read the lesson out loud and explained it to me. . . she didn't need to be "taught" at all, but I know that when I have her do the JA lessons orally and "teach" me, she gets a lot more out of them than when she does them alone, because it (I) force her to slow down and actually read every word.

 

Then we did the rest of our together work - we read and discussed a lesson on Newton's 3rd law, then took the quiz on the Coursera class.  She did the work, but I wanted to see what she scored, so I could know if we're ready to move on or if this concept needs more work (8/10, good enough for government work).  Then I read aloud to her from our Critical Thinking resource, and we did a GSWS lesson, and we discussed the poem she'll be writing about tomorrow (a WWS lesson).  

 

And . . . I'm done working with her for today! She still has to do her online spanish and typing, read a history chapter, learn her vocab words, and do a Killgallon assignment, but that's all on her own.  So I have time to work with Morgan all afternoon, and do our together lit read-aloud. Wow, how efficient I am.  Why are more days not like this??  :lol:

[lewelma]

What do you consider self-teaching vs. you teaching vs. buddy-learning/discussion?

Rose it depends on the type of learning. I read a book that defined 4 types of learning (can't remember the actual names, sorry):

 

1) Production - you have to practice actually producing (music, foreign languages, art)

2) Synthesis - these subjects require you to memorize lots of material that you then synthesize (biology, chemistry, art history)

3) Analytical - these are the math based subjects (math, physics, economics)

4) Critical Analysis - these are the subjects that you learn through discussion and argument (literary analysis, history)

 

I have forgotten all the great examples in the book (I think it was Study is Hard Work), and some subjects cross lines like chemistry where you have to do both the math and the memory to make sense of the subject.

 

But clearly to learn subjects in category #4 requires discussion, and #1 requires some sort of teaching or your production will be poor (although practicing is done alone), whereas #2 and 3 can be learned independently.

 

Ruth in NZ

[lewelma]

I should also add that I have used this classification to identify what areas I should work on with my older.

 

Analytical - he has this covered (and does he ever!)

 

Production - ah, this is why I have hired tutors - violin and mandarin, got it covered

 

Critical analysis - he LOVES to discuss and does a great job of it

 

Synthesis - this is where he falls over. He has no sense of how to organize his study, how to figure out what to memorize, how to outline, make study notes/cards/quizlet etc. So clearly this is the area I need to *teach* him how to handle. (ETA: Meaning teaching him how to learn, rather than actually teaching him the material.)

[Alte Veste Academy]

So upon further reflection on this thread, and my reason for it in the first place, and my new realizations...

 

 

What do you consider self-teaching vs. you teaching vs. buddy-learning/discussion?

 

Am I just being obtuse?  I realized the more I thought about it that while I spend a lot of time *with* Shannon, I'm not sure that much of it qualifies as "teaching" her.  A lot of it is making sure the next thing is ready when she is., making sure she's prepared for what's next, discussing what she's done, and providing evaluation and feedback on written work.

 

I keep using the word self-teaching and stated that he doesn't enjoy direct teaching, but really I was just focused on finding materials that literally are written to the kid, in a way that the book becomes the boss, not Mom. :tongue_smilie: Warriner's is kind of cool that way, asking some focused questions then directing him to follow the model with the "now you try it" assignment. Simple, interesting, easy-breezy, gets done, gets results, sinks in... 

 

I say he doesn't like me teaching him, but you're right; I do very little of that these days (and for sure much less than I used to before I became more familiar with Bloom's and Socratic questioning). Now I think even mentioning that threw me off the scent of the real issue here, which is that I need to reevaluate expectations for independence and execute a schedule change, both of which may necessitate the addition/subtraction of resources. The preferred resource type would be programs written to the student. 

 

So basically, the conversation comes back to its beginning, although ironically having evolved into a total collapse of my world. :lol: But that is good, because I've been feeling like school has been off-balance for a little while, and hopefully I can fix us up for a smooth transition into the next phase of our homeschool.  

 

I apologize if I am incoherent. I went to bed at 2 and was up at 6. I should really go ZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzz...

 

[lewelma]

So are you looking for material that is already scheduled into 36 weeks? I ask this because my older definitely trusts other's opinions as to how much work is fair. So he would work hard for SWB with WWS, but would say I was being unreasonable if *I* assigned the same amount of work.

 

I have gotten around this with his physics by saying " here is the national test you will take. It is a two year class, and this is how much you must cover." Then we break it down together, so he sees it as externally imposed requirements.

[Alte Veste Academy]

So are you looking for material that is already scheduled into 36 weeks? I ask this because my older definitely trusts other's opinions as to how much work is fair. So he would work hard for SWB with WWS, but would say I was being unreasonable if *I* assigned the same amount of work.

 

Nah. He doesn't have a clue that a school year is 36 weeks, and I'd like very much to keep it that way. :laugh:  When engaged, he tends to work pretty quickly. I work him at his own pace. He seems to have no issue with how much work I assign (doesn't balk anyway), so long as I adjust expectations when things take longer than expected, which I do as long as he is making a sincere effort. 

[Alte Veste Academy]

I have gotten around this with his physics by saying " here is the national test you will take. It is a two year class, and this is how much you must cover." Then we break it down together, so he sees it as externally imposed requirements.

 

I missed your edit! I will say, as far as "externally imposed requirements" go, DS11 got a good dose of reality and inspiration when we recently stumbled upon the LEGO job listings. :lol: We followed that up by looking at requirements for some of his other dream jobs, then by reading through the requirements for various degrees in college course catalogs, which led us to look at high school requirements/possibilities, then junior high, then...voila...NOW! :lol: It has been a serendipitous reality check for him. Why I didn't think of this for my whole-to-parts guy earlier, I'll never know. 

[lewelma]

Then I don't get it. Perhaps it is subject specific? In my view, all science textbooks are written to the student, but composition not so much. So IMHO all critical analysis classes can't be written to the student because they really need human iinteraction. For synthesis and analytical classes, are you just looking for well written material? If the explanations are clear, and a syllabus is given, then it seems to me that all materials are written to the student.

 

Or perhaps you are referring to a more folksey style? Where the author uses 'you' to be more engaging?

[Alte Veste Academy]

Then I don't get it. Perhaps it is subject specific? In my view, all science textbooks are written to the student, but composition not so much. So IMHO all critical analysis classes can't be written to the student because they really need human iinteraction. For synthesis and analytical classes, are you just looking for well written material? If the explanations are clear, and a syllabus is given, then it seems to me that all materials are written to the student.

 

Or perhaps you are referring to a more folksey style? Where the author uses 'you' to be more engaging?

 

I'm running on 4 hours of sleep, so the deficit in understanding is probably mine. At this point, I've almost forgotten what the question was. 

 

I am not looking to eliminate human interaction at all, and folksy isn't so much what I'm after. And we've got bookshelves full of well-written material here. I do write assignment instructions daily/weekly on his checklist. So, in that way, I write to my student. 

 

I know it sounds like I am contradicting myself. I think I'm conflating many issues here, in my own head. The thread has helped me work out what I really need to focus on though. :lol: 

[Pen]

 

So upon further reflection on this thread, and my reason for it in the first place, and my new realizations...

 

 

I keep using the word self-teaching and stated that he doesn't enjoy direct teaching, but really I was just focused on finding materials that literally are written to the kid, in a way that the book becomes the boss, not Mom. :tongue_smilie: Warriner's is kind of cool that way, asking some focused questions then directing him to follow the model with the "now you try it" assignment. Simple, interesting, easy-breezy, gets done, gets results, sinks in... 

 

I say he doesn't like me teaching him, but you're right; I do very little of that these days (and for sure much less than I used to before I became more familiar with Bloom's and Socratic questioning). Now I think even mentioning that threw me off the scent of the real issue here, which is that I need to reevaluate expectations for independence and execute a schedule change, both of which may necessitate the addition/subtraction of resources. The preferred resource type would be programs written to the student. 

 

So basically, the conversation comes back to its beginning, although ironically having evolved into a total collapse of my world. :lol: But that is good, because I've been feeling like school has been off-balance for a little while, and hopefully I can fix us up for a smooth transition into the next phase of our homeschool.  

 

I apologize if I am incoherent. I went to bed at 2 and was up at 6. I should really go ZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzz...

 

 

 

Most of our subjects are done by just reading actual books which are written to the reader...not assuming a "student" or "teacher"...or watching documentaries etc.

 

The critical areas are math and writing. To me it seems that no matter how it is written, writing takes a lot of "teaching," commenting and interaction and so on, at least at my son's stage.

 

And no matter how it is written, of the programs we have used anyway, math always seems to be more something that he can do on his own--at least if he chooses to, though often he wants to involve me in it in some way, though not to teach him, but to be present in some way.  That has been changing as he has been getting older, and 11 was a big "leave me alone, I can do it myself" age.

[ElizabethB]

Latin Alive with the DVDs.

 

Building Thinking Skills workbooks, just get the 7 - 12th grade ones, 2 separate books, figural and verbal.

[Alte Veste Academy]

I think I may have figured out my real problem. :D

 

Time spent on school basically breaks down into four categories here: our group work, one-on-one with Mom work, independent work, and my teacher prep workload (research, pre-reading, planning, writing assignments, creating daily/weekly checklists, grading, etc.). Plus, I run the house (insert infinite parenthetical responsibilities here). I am busy during all four of those work categories, including the kids' independent work time, as the kids trade out for one-on-one work during the same period.

 

To be clear, I am absolutely OK with school being a full-time job for me, but as the kids are getting older, it is bulging well beyond that. There are only 24 hours in a day, and I want to get back more of the (non-sleeping) hours for myself. Despite what the Daylight Savings Time people might want us to believe, more usable daylight hours do not actually make for more overall hours in a day. I have done the math, people. :lol:

 

We love our group work, so I don't want to cut it too severely. There are skill-oriented aspects that I could move and easily fold into one-on-one time, lengthening one-on-one time but allowing for sharper focus. Some stuff could be made independent.

 

All three kids would benefit from more one-on-one time with me. Younger DS in particular is starting to want (and would benefit from) more overall work than what is now expected of him. He has the BEST attitude toward school, and I do not want to ruin that by neglecting his increasing interest and needs. Anyway, he is easy as pie, but he will take more time. Both DD and DS11 would benefit from more solo discussion time with me, and they are also growing into work that just plain needs more individual tutoring.

 

So I feel like I can steal some time from our group work, but then need to add more x3 for one-on-one, a net time gain from a scheduling perspective. A good, necessary change, but doesn't fix my time problem...

 

Where can I get some time back? Two places, I figure. Increasing the amount of independent work and decreasing my teacher workload, both of which could be accomplished by finding high quality, open-and-go resources written to the student.

 

Younger DS (almost 8) isn't ready for much independence (which is fine, to be expected). DD9.5 is growing into independent work nicely. She could take on a bit more. DS11 is just moving to another plane. He enjoys independent work and could successfully take on significantly more, with the right resources. As indicated in my earlier posts, these resources could be Mom-made, but I am plain ol' weary right now—weary enough to compromise on my need for a homemade homeschool but not weary enough to compromise on resource quality. For better or for worse, I am very picky.

 

Prioritizing is not for wimps. Time for a major makeover, I think.

 

So essentially this conversation has helped me figure out why I asked the question in the first place! :lol:

 

Thanks to all! :)

[Alte Veste Academy]

Building Thinking Skills workbooks, just get the 7 - 12th grade ones, 2 separate books, figural and verbal.

I really like the looks of these for DS, thanks!

[Pen]

I think I may have figured out my real problem. :D

 

Time spent on school basically breaks down into four categories here: our group work, one-on-one with Mom work, independent work, and my teacher prep workload (research, pre-reading, planning, writing assignments, creating daily/weekly checklists, grading, etc.). Plus, I run the house (insert infinite parenthetical responsibilities here). I am busy during all four of those work categories, including the kids' independent work time, as the kids trade out for one-on-one work during the same period.

 

To be clear, I am absolutely OK with school being a full-time job for me, but as the kids are getting older, it is bulging well beyond that. There are only 24 hours in a day, and I want to get back more of the (non-sleeping) hours for myself. Despite what the Daylight Savings Time people might want us to believe, more usable daylight hours do not actually make for more overall hours in a day. I have done the math, people. :lol:

 

We love our group work, so I don't want to cut it too severely. There are skill-oriented aspects that I could move and easily fold into one-on-one time, lengthening one-on-one time but allowing for sharper focus. Some stuff could be made independent.

 

All three kids would benefit from more one-on-one time with me. Younger DS in particular is starting to want (and would benefit from) more overall work than what is now expected of him. He has the BEST attitude toward school, and I do not want to ruin that by neglecting his increasing interest and needs. Anyway, he is easy as pie, but he will take more time. Both DD and DS11 would benefit from more solo discussion time with me, and they are also growing into work that just plain needs more individual tutoring.

 

So I feel like I can steal some time from our group work, but then need to add more x3 for one-on-one, a net time gain from a scheduling perspective. A good, necessary change, but doesn't fix my time problem...

 

Where can I get some time back? Two places, I figure. Increasing the amount of independent work and decreasing my teacher workload, both of which could be accomplished by finding high quality, open-and-go resources written to the student.

 

Younger DS (almost 8) isn't ready for much independence (which is fine, to be expected). DD9.5 is growing into independent work nicely. She could take on a bit more. DS11 is just moving to another plane. He enjoys independent work and could successfully take on significantly more, with the right resources. As indicated in my earlier posts, these resources could be Mom-made, but I am plain ol' weary right now—weary enough to compromise on my need for a homemade homeschool but not weary enough to compromise on resource quality. For better or for worse, I am very picky.

 

Prioritizing is not for wimps. Time for a major makeover, I think.

 

So essentially this conversation has helped me figure out why I asked the question in the first place! :lol:

 

Thanks to all! :)

 

I wonder if another problem might be the differences between 11ds and 9.5dd/7ds in terms of material/content suitability...   At least here, what seems okay at 11 would often not be content I would want a 9.5 year old exposed to. For us especially where we have used documentaries a lot, watching and discussing them in history and other related areas especially, that would be hard to make work around younger children. I would not just want to leave ds11 with these alone, because I think the interaction is key, but bedtimes for 11 and 9.5 would probably not allow doing it after the youngers would be in bed.  It would probably have to be done during play elsewhere time or independent work for the younger children time, if I had to deal with that--or the older children would have to have some of their content area limited to what I thought was not too mature for the youngers, which might be okay or not depending on age range.

 

One option might be to have more of the skills area work be group work even if the level are different. Some interaction might actually be helpful.  I've often though that for reading where older children get to cement skills by reading to younger ones, but that might also be true for math in helping younger ones, or writing as a group workshop approach,

[Alte Veste Academy]

I wonder if another problem might be the differences between 11ds and 9.5dd/7ds in terms of material/content suitability... At least here, what seems okay at 11 would often not be content I would want a 9.5 year old exposed to. For us especially where we have used documentaries a lot, watching and discussing them in history and other related areas especially, that would be hard to make work around younger children. I would not just want to leave ds11 with these alone, because I think the interaction is key, but bedtimes for 11 and 9.5 would probably not allow doing it after the youngers would be in bed. It would probably have to be done during play elsewhere time or independent work for the younger children time, if I had to deal with that--or the older children would have to have some of their content area limited to what I thought was not too mature for the youngers, which might be okay or not depending on age range.

As far as documentaries go, anything appropriate for DS11 is OK for DD because he tends toward anxious and she tends toward mature, so they meet in the middle. We sometimes restrict younger DS based on content, but that stuff is removed from the school day, to make it easier to manage. DH is a huge documentary lover, so anything questionable is easily left for nights and/or weekends. (We do some history as a family this way, in the evenings.) Read-alouds are not a big challenge because younger DS is an "advanced listener." It is his gift. A very convenient gift. LOL Mature reading content is made independent or done as read-alouds at night with the target kid(s).

 

Hmmm. Duh. Maybe it is time to move all documentaries to nights and weekends. We all love them anyway and might as well preserve our school hours.

 

They all have the same bedtime, but youngest DS goes to sleep after about 15-30 minutes of reading and my older two stay up more like 1-1.5 hours.

 

One option might be to have more of the skills area work be group work even if the level are different. Some interaction might actually be helpful. I've often though that for reading where older children get to cement skills by reading to younger ones, but that might also be true for math in helping younger ones, or writing as a group workshop approach

:lol: This is what we have been doing and where I was going to save time by undoing!

[lewelma]

Where can I get some time back? Two places, I figure. Increasing the amount of independent work and decreasing my teacher workload, both of which could be accomplished by finding high quality, open-and-go resources written to the student.

 

Younger DS (almost 8) isn't ready for much independence (which is fine, to be expected). DD9.5 is growing into independent work nicely. She could take on a bit more. DS11 is just moving to another plane. He enjoys independent work and could successfully take on significantly more, with the right resources. As indicated in my earlier posts, these resources could be Mom-made, but I am plain ol' weary right now—weary enough to compromise on my need for a homemade homeschool but not weary enough to compromise on resource quality. For better or for worse, I am very picky.

 

We work very similarly over here, the main difference being I have less to do than you because 1) I have only 2 kids, and 2) the group work (history) is done by my dh at night.  So you have my sympathies!

 

What I have found I need to do is decide for each boy, which subjects (or parts of subjects) he can do independently and which need to be done with me.  So for my younger, he can do these subjects

 

independently:

latin,

mandarin (listening, cards, writing),

Composition (copying over his reports, Some report drafting)

math practice,

nonfiction reading,

literature reading,

spelling study

 

And needs help with these:

mandarin (speaking, obviously need to speak *to* someone

Composition (outlining, editing)

math teaching

Violin practice

grammar

spelling quizzing

 

This was NOT the same list for my older boy when he was 10.  For example, older's best independent subject was grammar, and younger just cannot get it on his own no matter the curricula I try.  It is just a no go.

 

It is actually not the curricula that make the difference for my boy.  Just some things he can do independently, and some he just can't.

 

So I simply make a list for each day with 2 columns for each subject, called 'independent' and 'with mom'. And write (really briefly) how his work is split between each column.  He does not need me every day for each subject, because some days he is just copying over his report, and other days he is drafting. etc.  A week of daily lists takes me 20 minutes to write.  Everything I use is open and go, so there is no intensive planning. When he is done with the work, he takes a yellow highlighter and highlights what he has finished. He knows exactly what he has to do when I am with my older.

 

This seems to be a clear cut way to keep his independent work independent, and let him know what I will help him with.

 

Ruth in NZ