My Mathy Kid Hates AoPs Pre-Algebra

[mirabillis]

I know there are many of you out there. Tried AoPs Pre-Algebra (age 11, 6th grade) it didn't stick. Share with me your experiences. Tell me what you've chosen, what direction you've headed. I need some support.

 

Background: We studied RightStart through to the end, then jumped to Singapore 4B-6A and then according to many opinions from the Hive decided to try AoPs pre-Algebra. But my 11yo 6th grader hates it. He's frustrated by the math, and he's much more directed, taught learning - does not want self-directed math.

 

We did MathCounts this year, which was a great introduction to Challenge Questions and discovery approach, and while he rose to the challenge, it wasn't his favorite thing ever.

 

Anybody been here before?

[wapiti]

First off, how far did you get into AoPS Prealgebra?  And, could you describe how you are using it, exactly - e.g. is your ds completing the lesson problems independently or are you working together, has he looked at the videos, etc.?  That might affect what I'd suggest.

 

If you are looking for a good, solid, straightforward direct-instruction prealgebra, I'd recommend Dolciani's Prealgebra, An Accelerated Course, a mid-80s text available used on Amazon.  Answers to odds are in the back.  (I soon will come to the end of AoPS Prealgebra with my third child to have done so.  We have used parts of Dolciani at a few difficult junctures in AoPS Prealgebra but always returned to AoPS as it is more fun....)

 

MathCounts would be a wonderful complement to Dolciani.

[dereksurfs]

I would say that AoPS Pre-A wasn't for ds11 when we tried Alcumus and the free samples.  At that time he was just not mentally mature enough for it.  We used TabletClass instead and supplemented with AoPS video lessons and sample text during Pre-A.  

 

I then decided to give AoPS Intro to Algebra a try with him after an incredible year of abstract reasoning development.  It turned out to work well for him as I felt he was much more ready.  I had also read quite a few critiques of AoPS Pre-A in comparison to Intro to Algebra.  So I'm glad we waited.  If AoPS hadn't worked for Algebra 1 I was planning on using Foerster which I also have a copy of.

[Julie of KY]

My second son, good at math but doesn't love it, tolerated AoPS Prealgebra. He did not like the first few chapters. I would pull from other math programs and then keep returning to AoPS. Mostly, he would get frustrated if he got to problems that he wasn't sure how to approach. I took it slow and added in other things. I always did the challenge problems together.

 

Now he's moved on to algebra. We introduce topics with a different book (like Dolciani or NEM) and then do problems out of AoPS.

[mirabillis]

We're at the end of chapter 1. :) We have been moving slowly, started with the discovery approach, letting him puzzle it out himself. But that soon became clear he didn't like that.

 

We have been doing 1 'section' per day. Just using the textbook. I'm loathe to try a video course, as I'd like to be his math teacher - and if he learns it by video, I'll lose track and not know how to help him any longer. Plus he comes from RightStart (A-E) and then Singapore (4b-6a), so he's used to a very teacher-intensive course.

 

We go over the intro. Then he works on the questions himself. Then I go over those with him teaching him the lessons. Then he does the Exercises alone, and I go over the answers.

 

We did well enough (he didn't love it, had some difficulties, definitely doesn't understand everything and I feel it doesn't offer enough practice/drill) until today's Summary. I can't even imagine what will happen with Challenge Questions.

 

Any other suggestions, thoughts, personal experiences, I'd love to hear!

I like the idea of introducing topics elsewhere and then puzzling out AoPs as challenge perhaps... and I understand Dolciani has much drill/practice...

 

[dereksurfs]

Yes, I recommend not looking at it as an all or nothing proposition most of all.  Its seems that AoPS is sometimes held up as some kind of holy grail of math.  And so it would follow that one would have to use it either exclusively or as the spine as a bare minimum.  Yet I don't think this is the case.  Instead I recommend using it with another program and introduce it more gradually as it really does take some getting used. IMO AoPS is *not* for the majority of children as a spine, especially at this developmental stage when going from concrete operations to abstract reasoning.  Dolciani is a fine text and of course there are others as well which can work perfectly fine as a spine.  Then use AoPS as a resource, pure and simple. Bring it in to enrich whatever other program is used including elaboration of certain concepts and to provide mentally challenging problems.

[EndOfOrdinary]

Discovery method isn't for everyone. I have heard good things about the way Jousting Armadillos presents the same sort of idea, but it works better for kids who aren't feeling it with AoPS. I think there is either more of a lead in to the problems, or a more evident "path" to follow. I have not used the resource myself, but many find it great for their non-AoPS kids. There are definitely more physical problems in each exercise.

 

Here is a link so you can see what the book is like http://www.arborcenterforteaching.org/publications/books/jousting-armadillos/

[wapiti]

I agree w/Derek that it doesn't need to be all or nothing.  Find what works for you.  Using direct instruction from elsewhere and then trying the exercises after he's done that, for the problem solving challenge, would be one way.  FWIW, I've done a lot of mixing things up, but when the going gets rough, I tend to do the opposite - we go through the instruction from AoPS and then use more straightforward practice from elsewhere and then come back.  But, I've done it both ways - depends on the topic.

 

Other suggestions you might try:  do the lesson problems together, socratically ("what might we try next?" "what do we know about this concept?" "what if we..." and use a white board).  Indeed this would be teacher intensive, and this is what we do in my house.  I find that the lesson problems are set up perfectly for this sort of approach.  Also then, before the exercises, have him watch the videos - this is not a video course, just extra reinforcement.  They're fun too.  I would watch them together if you have time.  If exercises are too hard (e.g. when there are tears), try working one or some or many together, or alternate.  You can always find another source for more practice later if necessary.

 

If there were tears over the regular end of ch 1 problems, then (1) I would not assign any challenge problems yet - it sounds like he's not ready - you can always do some later.  (2), break up the review exercises over multiple days.  And (3), assuming he was already solid with negative numbers before starting, I would guess that the tears were over the problem-solving aspect, putting the simple concepts that he already knows in the right combination.  This may take quite some adjustment, which doesn't happen overnight.  He needs to be patient with himself, and I'd want him to understand that it's ok to not feel sure about how to approach these problems yet ("half the fun is getting there" LOL).  You can be the judge of how gradual of an approach to increasing the problem-solving challenge would be best, as Derek suggests.  

 

FWIW, my kids still have moments of freaking out when they take one glance at a problem and say "that's too hard!" but they have improved over time.  I don't expect them to instantly warm to the AoPS way of looking at problems - more like something that they learn over the course of the whole book - or longer!  I feel very comfortable pulling some instruction or practice from another text if a lesson didn't go well in AoPS.

 

Beware that chapter 2 is one of the harder chapters in the book.  I'm not sure how I feel about doing that one out of order, though I think some posters have done so.  You could use another source for exponents and then come back to it later if he's not up for the challenge right now.  Or, mix it up.  Whatever you do, IMO that chapter is an especially good one - both for the depth of exponent learning and for the problem-solving perspective - well worth trying eventually.  Rest assured that a break comes afterward - chapter 3 is easier.

 

Just my two cents - good luck!

 

Eta, some of the phrases that come up later are "let's find something smart to do" or "let's find the lazy way" :).  The point of the ch 1 review exercises is to use concepts to avoid tedious calculations - thought I'd throw that out there in case his tears were due to actually computing rather than finding the "easy" (LOL) way.

[8filltheheart]

I have posted multiple times about my dd.   She is a very strong math student.   She does not like AoPS.   She has used Foerster's instead.   All of my kids have used Foerster except for my current sr who switched to AoPS in 8th grade for their alg 3 course online.

 

I don't think that all kids need AoPS.   I also don't think all STEM kids need AoPS.   Foerster is a very strong application program.  AoPS is a very strong proof-based program.   AoPS really helps students develop mathematical theory.    Foerster is great for applied mathematical reasoning.

 

My oldest is a chemE and never struggled in any math for his engineering degree.   I am definitely satisfied with the math education he received.   Youngest ds loves theory and the theoretical approach in AoPS is right up his alley.  

 

ETA;  I just saw where you said you are only at the end of chpt one.   Is that from the beginning of the school yr or recently starting?  I have no idea how many sections are in chpt 1/  ;)  If that is from Sept, I think you need to move on to something else.   I would if it is even an extended period of time, I would put it away and revisit later.   However, if this is recent, I would spend more time with it.   A chpt really isn't enough time to make an educated choice.

[Penelope]

I have a sixth grader using AoPS peer-algebra.

 

I thought about ditching it during the first two or three chapters. I know my kid was not happy with it at first! But it does get better. He's in chapter 8, and while the approach to learning they material is different than other pre-algebra books, the regular problems are similar to what I see in Lial's and Dolciani. Plus, fractions, decimals, per cents, and ratios are really a review, just with slightly more difficult problems than were in Primary Math. Ds enjoys the book now.

 

I have been selective in assigning the challenge problems. I give him a few to do, then spread others out to do later.

 

The only thing that has me hesitant in continuing with AoPS is that this year we have spent a lot more time on math. At this point, we are going to be finishing this book through the summer. This is okay, but I wonder how he will do with algebra.

[mirabillis]

 

 

ETA;  I just saw where you said you are only at the end of chpt one.   Is that from the beginning of the school yr or recently starting?  I have no idea how many sections are in chpt 1/  ;)  If that is from Sept, I think you need to move on to something else.   I would if it is even an extended period of time, I would put it away and revisit later.   However, if this is recent, I would spend more time with it.   A chpt really isn't enough time to make an educated choice.

I just started last week. :-) We completed Singapore Math 5B/6A and a month of MathCounts preparation already this school year.

[crazyforlatin]

If you've used CWP 5 or 6, you'll notice very similar but slightly easier problems in subsequent chapters. I just don't think there is anything that beats some of those word problems in CWP 6. We spend a long time in Chapter 1, getting used to the format, a different way of thinking, writing down problems in a separate notebook, thinking about a problem for more than 10 seconds, etc. In fact even during the first 3 chapters, I continued using other books such as Zaccaro, MM, and HOE to give DD a break. We're on a roll now and we've found that it gets easier after Chapter 2.

 

I like the idea of Dolciani (I happen to like it a lot) for practice, but we haven't put that yet into our schedule, maybe a quick run-through before algebra. It's really hard to drop AoPS after a certain point. Once you get into any of the fractions/decimals/ratios chapters, you're almost at the half-way mark and you've gotten into a groove. It's not just the problems themselves or the discovery approach; it's how everything is explained so well in the textbook and solutions manual. You get RR and company as tutors for about $60!

 

DD will never become a mathematician (just not the type, kind of good at math but not passionate about it). I chose AoPS because it has large font and it's wordy, suitable for a young, verbal kid. I do have Foerster's Algebra (and AoPS Algebra) and I love it. It's very familiar not just to me but to some friends who have their PhDs in science at MIT/Stanford. We all think we've used it before; after 30 years it's hard to remember what you did in middle school.

[Halcyon]

We use AoPS for fun extras, and use TC Algebra (started with Pre-A last year). We don't use it as our spine. My son loves math, but is a linear thinker and AoPS was too open-ended and loosey-goosey for him. And too wordy. 

[lewelma]

I have abandoned aops preA with my younger and have just started Singapore math's discovering mathematics CC with the workbooks (which apparently make the program much harder). So far so good.

 

I have been one of the people who has not liked aops preA in comparison to the intro algebra text. They do have different authors. Just because your student does not like preA does not mean that intro algebra won't be a good fit in a year.

 

Ruth in NZ

[texasmama]

We are struggling through AoPS pre-A here, but I have found some modifications which make the program workable for my two boys, who are strong in math but not math geniuses. 

 

We do not use it as a discovery program.  We use the first part of the chapters as teaching.  Then the boys work the exercises at the end of the chapter.  We do not do the challenge problems.    Chapters 2 and 5 kicked our collective butts.  Seriously.  After Chapter 5 was not gelling, I took a five week detour using Zaccaro's Real World Algebra and Keys to Algebra, then returned to the end of chapter exercises in Chapter 5.  Things went much smoother then.  I accept that this is a program which will require detours.

 

We have done some work in Dolciani pre-A, and I have shown them Saxon Algebra 1/2 and a Tabletclass demo.  They often complain about AoPS, but after looking at the other options, they still choose it.  My oldest son really liked Zaccaro, but my younger found it to be "too simple".  He is the adventurous one.  ;)

 

At this point, we are just beginning Chapter 6.  It has been slow-going, but some of that is due to my work schedule.  We will be working all summer on math, which is fine with me.  I have wondered if this is really the program for my sons, but when I show them the options, they choose it so as long as this is the case, we will proceed.  I am not a mathy person so this is a struggle for me.  Singapore was a good fit for all of us, and I do have NEM on the shelf.  (Anxious math people own a lot of math programs.  :D )

[Halcyon]

anywhere i can see AoPS Algebra online?

[wapiti]

anywhere i can see AoPS Algebra online?

 

AFAIK, there are only the excerpts on the web page for the book.

[mirabillis]

We use AoPS for fun extras, and use TC Algebra (started with Pre-A last year). We don't use it as our spine. My son loves math, but is a linear thinker and AoPS was too open-ended and loosey-goosey for him. And too wordy. 

TC Algebra, is that TabletClass?

[mirabillis]

Great news! After your encouraging posts, I went at it today from a fresher perspective. And we didn't give up or give in!

 

And after reading about the videos that they were fun reinforcement, I thought we'd give those a whirl. My son LOVED the videos - he ended up watching the entire Chapter 1 set... Then we began the Review problems afresh. And he did great. And he actually said while doing math, "I love this!" What?!? 

 

I'm still iffy about it - as I want him to love it all the time. I don't want to force my 12 yo to hate math at such a young age, when it's not necessary. So I'll take it with kid gloves. He knows this may not be the one for us, and knows we'll just try it for a time, while Mama researches an alternative. And while doing that, we'll see if it starts sticking for him... Either way, I need an alternative, b/c my seriously non-mathy next in line will never go for this in 2-3 years time. So I may as well research my alternatives now. 

 

From what I've gathered, I see:

1. Supplement with Key to Algebra
2. Saxon Algebra 1 - was a pick from a non-AoPs user

3. TabletClass (TC?)

4. Dolciani preAlgebra - (I like the idea of this as the instruction & drill/practice - then to AoPs for review?)

5. Singapore (but I understand post 6B, it lacks guides and is more difficult to teach?)

6. Jousting Armadillos

7. Foerster's

 

 

Tomorrow we'll try some challenge problems together, and we'll *try* to delve into Chapter 2 week after next (next week we're off). Wish me luck! And thanks for all the words of warnings about Ch2 being so hard and expecting it to kick my butt. Appreciate the forewarning!

[texasmama]

We watch every single AoPS video prior to working the associated chapters. I love RR's videos! He is fast and engaging. I found the Tabletclass demo to be verbose in comparison.

[dereksurfs]

Great news! After your encouraging posts, I went at it today from a fresher perspective. And we didn't give up or give in!

 

And after reading about the videos that they were fun reinforcement, I thought we'd give those a whirl. My son LOVED the videos - he ended up watching the entire Chapter 1 set... Then we began the Review problems afresh. And he did great. And he actually said while doing math, "I love this!" What?!? 

 

I'm still iffy about it - as I want him to love it all the time. I don't want to force my 12 yo to hate math at such a young age, when it's not necessary. So I'll take it with kid gloves. He knows this may not be the one for us, and knows we'll just try it for a time, while Mama researches an alternative. And while doing that, we'll see if it starts sticking for him... Either way, I need an alternative, b/c my seriously non-mathy next in line will never go for this in 2-3 years time. So I may as well research my alternatives now. 

 

From what I've gathered, I see:

1. Supplement with Key to Algebra

2. Saxon Algebra 1 - was a pick from a non-AoPs user

3. TabletClass (TC?)

4. Dolciani preAlgebra - (I like the idea of this as the instruction & drill/practice - then to AoPs for review?)

5. Singapore (but I understand post 6B, it lacks guides and is more difficult to teach?)

6. Jousting Armadillos

7. Foerster's

 

 

Tomorrow we'll try some challenge problems together, and we'll *try* to delve into Chapter 2 week after next (next week we're off). Wish me luck! And thanks for all the words of warnings about Ch2 being so hard and expecting it to kick my butt. Appreciate the forewarning!

 

I would add one more highly rated program to your list of alternatives which I am also considering for our dds:

Derek Owens Pre-Algebra

 

Also note that Foerster is not Pre-A but rather Algebra 1.  TC = TabletClass.

 

Lastly, I think your experience above proves two things in your 'short' exposure to AoPS.  RR's videos are really great in and of themselves.  The videos do encourage kids to think about their math in sometimes different ways.  Secondly, your son 'can' enjoy AoPS.  If you read more about AoPS's methodolgy including The Calculus Trap you'll notice it is designed for children to struggle and really wrestle over problems.  So it won't always be 'fun' in that sense.  That is part of the mental maturing process realizing that some things which are hard are worth preserving for.  But all of this at such a pivotal developmental stage can be too much, especially on its own.  Hence the need to supplement, take detours or use another spine as we did with TC.  It will not hurt to have a few resources available to pull from as you teach this subject.  Then vary things as they work best while still providing adequate challenge.  Although we preferred TC for Pre-A we watched all the AoPS videos as they are so good.

[Arcadia]

anywhere i can see AoPS Algebra online?

 

I found a pdf copy using Google. Someone post the entire book on a practice page for AMC8.

[Chrysalis Academy]

We watch every single AoPS video prior to working the associated chapters. I love RR's videos! He is fast and engaging. I found the Tabletclass demo to be verbose in comparison.

 

Yeah, RR has spoiled me for every other video-based math prgram.  I listen or watch samples and I think "booooooring"

 

What's really funny, is that if you watch the C&P videos, they were made before the PreA ones, and before he had the interactive blackboard, and they are so different! He's much more low-energy and professorial, they're more like what you get with other presenters I've seen.  It's so great that he was able to ramp up his game and make the later videos so fantastic.

[mirabillis]

AoPS was not a hit with my mathy son either.  Right now we are using Saxon Algebra 1.  He absolutely loves it and is my happy math kid again.  His biggest complaint about AoPS was he felt it didn't teach anything and he had to teach himself.  Yes, that really is how it is.  But it was not all for nothing because I often hear him saying, "Oh let me see if I can figure that out!" before looking at the explanations in Saxon.   He still also enjoys using the Alcamus.

 

I wish there was some sort of hybrid between AoPS and Saxon.  There are excellent qualities to both.  There are things about both I'm no crazy about. 

SparklyUnicorn - is this you from another thread. I have it saved, in my Notepad file, for future reference... is that you? 

So I bought another book (Saxon Algebra 1).  Wow, what a difference.  He is enjoying math again.  The way things are taught in the book is the way he likes to be taught. 

 

 

Derek - continued thanks for all your great insight! I really appreciate it. I think I might look next into TC (thanks for clarifying)

 

And thanks to everyone for suggesting the videos... I *never* would have stumbled on those on my own. My son is a bit video-obsessed, and we strived to stay screen-free as long as we could. We made it age 10, and now we try to keep it limited. So anything school that is on the computer, he jumps at it. I, not so much. But his videos are something special. Today he did the challenge problems before I even got to it, to help him, and of the 1/2 he did, got almost all of them right. He says that the videos helped explain it so much better.

 

So I'll keep researching... and keep sticking my toe in the water with AoPs. I am not a curriculum junkie. I like to find one thing and let it stick. But I know my non-mathy next will not like AoPs AT ALL, so now's as good a time as any for an alternative/supplement, etc.

[boscopup]

The first chapter is the most esoteric and annoying. I hated that chapter. Chapter 2 is a lot better, though much harder (we had to go to Dolciani for more practice on the basics of exponents). Chapters 3 and 4 have been fun and easy. I had to walk my son through Chapters 1 and 2, holding his hand the whole way. Now he's done Chapter 4 completely independently, and he's learned to enjoy working hard at a problem that doesn't come easily.

 

But of course, AoPS isn't for every kid either. I just think one week of use in Chapter 1 isn't necessarily the best time to judge. Some people have skipped that chapter and started somewhere else. I can't remember where they started though?

[FairProspects]

The first chapter is the most esoteric and annoying. I hated that chapter. Chapter 2 is a lot better, though much harder (we had to go to Dolciani for more practice on the basics of exponents). Chapters 3 and 4 have been fun and easy. I had to walk my son through Chapters 1 and 2, holding his hand the whole way. Now he's done Chapter 4 completely independently, and he's learned to enjoy working hard at a problem that doesn't come easily.

 

But of course, AoPS isn't for every kid either. I just think one week of use in Chapter 1 isn't necessarily the best time to judge. Some people have skipped that chapter and started somewhere else. I can't remember where they started though?

 

Good to know, because chapter 1 was the chapter that made me think the whole book would be too wordy and dry for ds. Maybe I should take a better look.

[boscopup]

Good to know, because chapter 1 was the chapter that made me think the whole book would be too wordy and dry for ds. Maybe I should take a better look.

 

It might still be too wordy for him... The whole book is wordy (it's like a teacher lecturing to you). But Chapter 1 was annoying because it was things like proving that 2+3=3+2. The other chapters have gotten more into actual problem solving, and the problems themselves teach a lot. When I walked DS through the first couple chapters, if he did the problem the way they did it in the book, I didn't bother to read the explanation. I only read the explanation if they did it differently. Now he reads the explanations himself, and he's learned to skim through those if he did it the same way, but he doesn't have your son's dyslexia issues, so I don't know how well your son could handle that.

 

You going through the book might be worth doing.

 

Looking at the Intro to Algebra samples (I don't own that book yet), it looks like the same level of wordiness as the Prealgebra book.

 

[mommymilkies]

We had the same problem with wordiness.  It made me (good at math and VSL) and her both cry.  Intro to Algebra looks much better. Pre-A killed my oldest's love of math for nearly a year. 

[dereksurfs]

We had the same problem with wordiness.  It made me (good at math and VSL) and her both cry.  Intro to Algebra looks much better. Pre-A killed my oldest's love of math for nearly a year. 

 

Bummer.  Thanks for sharing this.  Its a good example of AoPS Pre-A not being a good fit for everyone.  What might be a good thing for some can be just the opposite for others.  Killing a child's love for math is obviously never a good thing.  

 

With hindsight being 20/20 is there something you may have possibly been able to do differently to make it more tolerable/beneficial?  For example do you think you could have moved to another spine program while still using AoPS Pre-A vidoes and parts of the text for further concept development? 

 

Intro to Algebra is a great text which still has some very challenging material.  That said it is still not for every child.  I'm pretty sure it will not work for our next dc.  So I'm exploring alternatives.

[mommymilkies]

 

 

Bummer.  Thanks for sharing this.  Its a good example of AoPS Pre-A not being a good fit for everyone.  What might be a good thing for some can be just the opposite for others.  Killing a child's love for math is obviously never a good thing.  

 

With hindsight being 20/20 is there something you may have possibly been able to do differently to make it more tolerable/beneficial?  For example do you think you could have moved to another spine program while still using AoPS Pre-A vidoes and parts of the text for further concept development? 

 

Intro to Algebra is a great text which still has some very challenging material.  That said it is still not for every child.  I'm pretty sure it will not work for our next dc.  So I'm exploring alternatives.

 

I could have skipped the first couple of chapters, but the tears were there before we could move on.  Math was her favorite subject and it killed her self-confidence.  She's doing much better in Galore Park's math after finishing Singapore Math.  I looked through the Algebra book for her for Fall and it seems less wordy.  I did consider not giving her just the pages so she didn't know the program.  She still gets a scared look on her face when she hears AoPS.  She's really good at math, so it's not inability.  I am pretty decent at math and dh is a math genius chemistry instructor and we both also decided the Pre-algebra was overcomplicated.  It seems more suitable for verbal learners just from our perspective. YMMV.  I'm not saying AoPS is a bad program.  It just isn't for every company, and the Pre-Algebra in particular has been a problem with others I have talked to. 

[dereksurfs]

I could have skipped the first couple of chapters, but the tears were there before we could move on.  Math was her favorite subject and it killed her self-confidence.  She's doing much better in Galore Park's math after finishing Singapore Math.  I looked through the Algebra book for her for Fall and it seems less wordy.  I did consider not giving her just the pages so she didn't know the program.  She still gets a scared look on her face when she hears AoPS.  She's really good at math, so it's not inability.  I am pretty decent at math and dh is a math genius chemistry instructor and we both also decided the Pre-algebra was overcomplicated.  It seems more suitable for verbal learners just from our perspective. YMMV.  I'm not saying AoPS is a bad program.  It just isn't for every company, and the Pre-Algebra in particular has been a problem with others I have talked to. 

 

I'm glad to hear things are going better now for her.

 

I think there are enough other great Algebra programs such that AoPS is not essential even for a bright child.  I really like Foerster for Algebra 1 and would have used it if ds12 did not like AoPS.  I don't think using AoPS is worth driving a child to disliking math or killing their self-confidence.  No program is worth that.  With the Intro to Algebra AoPS text I approached it like it would be supplemental or experimental at first.  It wasn't until ds12 decided he liked it that we decided to use it as our spine.  I would advise the same for anyone consider using it as every child learns so differently.  In addition their cognitive development happens at different times especially at this critical juncture when moving from concrete operations to abstract reasoning.

[wapiti]

 It seems more suitable for verbal learners just from our perspective. YMMV.

 

Definitely not for everyone.  FWIW, the way I look at it, the verbosity is more likely to be an issue for a student who would need to read through the lesson problem solutions independently.  I suppose the lesson problems themselves may be a lot to read through for a student who is especially young.  In theory at least, the learning is supposed to come from doing the lesson problems rather than reading the very-thorough solutions.

 

(My kids are far from verbal learners - they are very visual-spatial with language processing issues.  The way we use it, socratically, the verbosity isn't an issue at all.  By the time we get to the lesson problem solutions, we have already covered virtually everything in there, and then I point out anything else that hadn't come up as well as anything in the colored boxes.  We don't read all the words :tongue_smilie:)

[MamaSprout]

I have this on order: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_3_17?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=creative%20problem%20solving%20in%20school%20mathematics%202nd%20edition%20by%20dr.%20george%20lenchner&sprefix=creative+problem+%2Caps%2C319

 

I've been told it is an excellent lead into AoPS Algebra and does a better job of teaching problem solving than the PreA book. I don't have it yet, though.

 

We are still easing into PreA, but are using Alcumus and AoPS/ Derek Owens Videos along with the Dolciani 1981 text for a "warm up" to PreA. DD does well with the AoPS videos and Alcumus, but took one look at the PreA book and said no way.

 

 

[mirabillis]

One look at AoPS told me it was not for us.  Its written like a novel.  Who wants to read all that just to do math?  Certainly not my just the facts son.

What did you choose that was less wordy?

[mirabillis]

We had the same problem with wordiness.  It made me (good at math and VSL) and her both cry.  Intro to Algebra looks much better. Pre-A killed my oldest's love of math for nearly a year. 

If you don't mind my asking, what did you opt with?? You're scaring me - as I'm afraid that might be the same for us. The more I read, knowing my son, I think using AoPs as a supplement but teaching with another spine might be the best best.

 

Never mind - I see you said, Galore Park. We also just came from SIngapore, and he really liked it! What Singapore level did you get through? And what grade is your oldest when he started Galore Park?

 

Thanks so much for so many of you weighing in! It's just hard for me to choose alternate curriculums. I like to choose one and stick with it. *ugh* While we'll continue with the videos and probably use AoPs here and there, I think he too cringes a bit with it. He wants it to come easier, and he's only 11 - why shouldn't it?!

[mommymilkies]

If you don't mind my asking, what did you opt with?? You're scaring me - as I'm afraid that might be the same for us. The more I read, knowing my son, I think using AoPs as a supplement but teaching with another spine might be the best best.

 

Never mind - I see you said, Galore Park. We also just came from SIngapore, and he really liked it! What Singapore level did you get through? And what grade is your oldest when he started Galore Park?

 

Thanks so much for so many of you weighing in! It's just hard for me to choose alternate curriculums. I like to choose one and stick with it. *ugh* While we'll continue with the videos and probably use AoPs here and there, I think he too cringes a bit with it. He wants it to come easier, and he's only 11 - why shouldn't it?!

We went back to Singapore and HOE actually.  We finished through SM 6 and all of HOE and she also did a CGP book for KS3.  Now she is on Galore Park math. 

 

I don't want to scare anyone off, just giving our experience.  I know several people who had the same experience.  But if it's working, it's working.  Stick with what works but if there are tears...it's time to move on. :)

[dereksurfs]

We went back to Singapore and HOE actually.  We finished through SM 6 and all of HOE and she also did a CGP book for KS3.  Now she is on Galore Park math. 

 

I don't want to scare anyone off, just giving our experience.  I know several people who had the same experience.  But if it's working, it's working.  Stick with what works but if there are tears...it's time to move on. :)

 

I think this is good advice.  There is a time for everything and at this stage driving a child to tears may not be it for AoPS.  I would give a wide enough berth to allow for stretching without killing a child's fragile, developing confidence during this stage.  Maybe with a lot of build up to it or that child that just gets it it would be fine.  For us it was just too early for this level of pressure as a spine program.

[Mom-ninja.]

It might still be too wordy for him... The whole book is wordy (it's like a teacher lecturing to you). But Chapter 1 was annoying because it was things like proving that 2+3=3+2. The other chapters have gotten more into actual problem solving, and the problems themselves teach a lot. When I walked DS through the first couple chapters, if he did the problem the way they did it in the book, I didn't bother to read the explanation. I only read the explanation if they did it differently. Now he reads the explanations himself, and he's learned to skim through those if he did it the same way, but he doesn't have your son's dyslexia issues, so I don't know how well your son could handle that.

 

 

This is one of the reasons I didn't chose AoPS. My ds is dyslexic and he groans about MM reading. He loves videos like Khan Academy. I've never looked at the AoPS videos.

 

I'm thinking of doing TC because it's video based.

[mirabillis]

Update:

 

We'd been gone for about a week and picked up last 1/2 of Chapter 1's Challenge Questions today.

 

He found them impossible, and after so much insight above, we've decided to shelve AoPs. Not for us. He was beyond thrilled about this, and shouldn't that just say everything!? I've got Dolciani on the way, so we'll see if that's better. And in the meantime, we started RightStart Geometry that we hadn't yet got to. My son loves it! Happy Mathy boy again. Too bad RightStart doesn't continue until high school... ah well.

 

 

[MamaSprout]

I have this on order: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_3_17?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=creative%20problem%20solving%20in%20school%20mathematics%202nd%20edition%20by%20dr.%20george%20lenchner&sprefix=creative+problem+%2Caps%2C319

 

I've been told it is an excellent lead into AoPS Algebra and does a better job of teaching problem solving than the PreA book. I don't have it yet, though.

 

We are still easing into PreA, but are using Alcumus and AoPS/ Derek Owens Videos along with the Dolciani 1981 text for a "warm up" to PreA. DD does well with the AoPS videos and Alcumus, but took one look at the PreA book and said no way.

 

I've received and like Creative Problem Solving in School Mathematics very much. The problems remind me a bit of Zaccaro, but there is explicit teaching for different methods of problem solving and worked out solutions with explanations -and no cartoons :o). It teaches what appears to be PreAlgebra material in a format an interested 4th or 5th grader can grasp, but has enough meat that an older kid who hasn't done a lot of AoPS style problem solving could find useful.

 

I wish there was an online sample for this- I think they would sell a lot more of them. I had this in my "cart" for months.

 

Right now, I can see us using this + Alcumus+ Singapore DM 7 for our "PreA" year next year, and then possibly into something AoPS when those are finished.

[Mom-ninja.]

I bought the above book, and my ds hated it. Too dry, too many words on a page, and "bang my head on the wall boring" as quoted from ds. So I bought Zaccaro instead and he much prefers that. He's a kid and likes the cartoons. :lol:

 

I haven't gotten rid of the book because I'll try to have him get back to it later.

 

 

Update:

 

We'd been gone for about a week and picked up last 1/2 of Chapter 1's Challenge Questions today.

 

He found them impossible, and after so much insight above, we've decided to shelve AoPs. Not for us. He was beyond thrilled about this, and shouldn't that just say everything!? I've got Dolciani on the way, so we'll see if that's better. And in the meantime, we started RightStart Geometry that we hadn't yet got to. My son loves it! Happy Mathy boy again. Too bad RightStart doesn't continue until high school... ah well.

I just bought Jousting Armadillos to see how ds likes it. I think I posted that above? Don't remember.

 

Anyway, my ds loves RS G. Yes, I also wish the RS continued until high school or even into high school. My boys love that program so much. My life would be easier if she had continued. The same can be said for FLL.

[MamaSprout]

I bought the above book, and my ds hated it. Too dry, too many words on a page, and "bang my head on the wall boring" as quoted from ds. So I bought Zaccaro instead and he much prefers that. He's a kid and likes the cartoons. :lol:

 

I haven't gotten rid of the book because I'll try to have him get back to it later.

 

 

I just bought Jousting Armadillos to see how ds likes it. I think I posted that above? Don't remember.

 

Anyway, my ds loves RS G. Yes, I also wish the RS continued until high school or even into high school. My boys love that program so much. My life would be easier if she had continued. The same can be said for FLL.

 

I didn't think the text part was written to the student, just the questions. It's set up for coaching students, although I suppose a student could use it independently.

 

I'll report back after I give it a spin with the kiddos. My dd's is one who says "yeah! story problem!" when she's on Alcumus, though. She likes Zaccaro, I just found it awkward for me. I like the idea of Jousting Armadillos, but it's scope is so narrow, I don't want to add it to the mix right now. I might take a look at the one after it- Rocket Dog?- when we get closer to Algebra.

[Chrysalis Academy]

 

 

I'll report back after I give it a spin with the kiddos. My dd's is one who says "yeah! story problem!" when she's on Alcumus, though. She likes Zaccaro, I just found it awkward for me. I like the idea of Jousting Armadillos, but it's scope is so narrow, I don't want to add it to the mix right now. I might take a look at the one after it- Rocket Dog?- when we get closer to Algebra.

 

Yeah, I've been looking at the next two books after JA, because JA is working so very well for Shannon.  The problem is, when I line up the S&S beside AoPs, it doesn't feel complete.  So I'm really balking at the idea of spending $120 for the next 4 books (student plus teacher guides) and then have to supplement anyway, when I could get AoPS for $60 and have Algebra 1 and so much more covered . . . . or just use Jacobs or LOF, which I already have!  :glare:

 

She really, really loves it, but $120 and then scrambling to fill in holes?????  This doesn't sound so appealing.