Singapore Is Not Going To Work

[sahmoffour]

Three days in, and I can already tell!  I HATE the HIG.  Takes far too long to read through what I'm supposed to teach that day, and even though math was my best subject in school, I'm not loving the way it's being taught.  I don't have the time to read each HIG guide before I teach with 3 kids in separate levels, and one more up and coming. I also hate all the shuffling between the books.  I end up with books spread all over my kitchen table, shuffling between each one trying to find the one I'm looking for.  I'm finding I need an open and go, scripted to the student type of program.  Any suggestions? I was loving the looks of MM until I noticed it doesn't go past Gr.6.  My oldest is currently in Gr.6 so I'd prefer something that will carry him through to graduation.  I'm really unsure at this point on whether mastery or spiral works better for each of my kids, as this is our first  year homeschooling.  We pulled the kids out at Christmas break so we're literally, just getting started.

[Jen in NY]

Hmmmm.... not sure what would take up less space than Singapore. You will always be in three different books with them, right?

 

Maybe you don't really need to use the HIG? I never did use it while we were doing the lessons... I just used it to check the workbook or if I got hung up on something. IIRC, We would talk through the lesson in the "text" and even do some of it together, and then dc would do the WB assignment alone, unless s/he needed help. Maybe you could just try going rogue and ditching the HIG for a few days and see how it goes. Just use it to check their independent work when they are done. Then there will really only be one book and potentially a notebook per kid at a time.

 

Good Luck! And try to relax and see what works for you! There are no rules about how you have to use any of the materials out there.... just the ones you make for yourself. :) Enjoy your journey!

[OneStepAtATime]

I don't know much about Singapore but if you are interested in MM, as I understand it they have just released higher levels that go through Algebra I.  

[sahmoffour]

Hmmmm.... not sure what would take up less space than Singapore. You will always be in three different books with them, right?

 

Maybe you don't really need to use the HIG? I never did use it while we were doing the lessons... I just used it to check the workbook or if I got hung up on something. IIRC, We would talk through the lesson in the "text" and even do some of it together, and then dc would do the WB assignment alone, unless s/he needed help. Maybe you could just try going rogue and ditching the HIG for a few days and see how it goes. Just use it to check their independent work when they are done. Then there will really only be one book and potentially a notebook per kid at a time.

 

Good Luck! And try to relax and see what works for you! There are no rules about how you have to use any of the materials out there.... just the ones you make for yourself. :) Enjoy your journey!

 

Yes, but I'd rather be in 3 different books versus the 9 I'm in right now with each level having a text, workbook and HIG.  Next year when my youngest is in first grade it'll get even worse.  I considered just dropping the HIG for each, but then I read a bunch of replies to various Singapore threads that said the entire concept is taught in the HIG and it's vital to the program.  So now I'm just not sure! :)

 

I don't know much about Singapore but if you are interested in MM, as I understand it they have just released higher levels that go through Algebra I.  

 

I checked the website and it says that they'll be writing pre-algebra during 2014.  So yes, they may have it published by the time my oldest needs it, but will they have the following years' book when he's finished pre-algebra?  I just don't know if I want to take the chance or if I'd rather just find something that goes all the way through.  I was considering Saxon but it doesn't seem to get much love from many people, and CLE doesn't seem to be widely used either so I'm just not sure.  Any other popular programs worth taking a look at?

[Slache]

Life of Fred? It's independent, many people love it, though others hate it, and I've read some rave reviews including fantastic SAT scores, so I guess it works. There's an elementary set, but the series starts in 5th grade with fractions, decimals and percents.

[mysticmomma]

I'd ditch the workbook. Preview what's going on in the hig (potty reading maybe?) and just use the text.

[EKS]

I found that reading through the book Elementary Mathematics for Teachers made it so I didn't need to use the HIG.

[PhotoGal]

I am enjoying just using textbooks and workbooks with Singapore (shhh... Don't tell the nay sayers!). I started with the HIGs and they slowed us way down. I have a strong math background and kids who are strong in math as well. Sticking to just the text (and we don't do most of the problems in the text) and the workbook gives us time for things like Beast Academy, games, outside math books, fact review, challenge problems, etc. I do look over the HIGs before we start the school year and make note of any interesting activities or challenge problems and write them at the bottom of the corresponding workbook page. I only do this if I think the kids will learn/think due to the activity/problem.

 

 

[kiana]

I really wouldn't worry about seeking one program to carry you through high school. After pre-algebra is a perfect time to switch programs anyway.

[Mrs Twain]

If I were you, I wouldn't make a requirement that the math program has to take your children all the way through 12th grade.  There are plenty of great math programs starting with pre-algebra or algebra.  Most people pick one math program for K-6th or so, and then they switch about at pre-algebra or algebra.

 

My engineer, math-geek husband and I are extremely pleased with Horizons math (plus Singapore's Challenging Word Problems as a supplement).  Horizons is not scripted, but people who are good at math tend to like it.  Note--If you use Horizons, you should definitely follow the TM, including the drill and concept explanations, to get the best out of the program (not just hand the worksheet to your child). 

 

We have used Horizons for K-5th so far.  We will probably use an old Dolciani 1988 text for pre-algebra in 6th, but that is off topic.  :001_smile:

[wapiti]

What Kiana said.  Before or after prealgebra is a perfect time to switch.  There is *no* reason, IMO, to fear using a different program for high school math.

 

MM is a great program.  She has suggestions for algebra - cross that bridge when you come to it.  You need to take advantage of the time until then reading the high school board to explore the possibilities for high school math.  If you need a prealgebra before MM7 is published, there are lots of suggestions around here in old threads and folks would be happy to offer even more.

[OneStepAtATime]

Yes, but I'd rather be in 3 different books versus the 9 I'm in right now with each level having a text, workbook and HIG.  Next year when my youngest is in first grade it'll get even worse.  I considered just dropping the HIG for each, but then I read a bunch of replies to various Singapore threads that said the entire concept is taught in the HIG and it's vital to the program.  So now I'm just not sure! :)

 

 

I checked the website and it says that they'll be writing pre-algebra during 2014.  So yes, they may have it published by the time my oldest needs it, but will they have the following years' book when he's finished pre-algebra?  I just don't know if I want to take the chance or if I'd rather just find something that goes all the way through.  I was considering Saxon but it doesn't seem to get much love from many people, and CLE doesn't seem to be widely used either so I'm just not sure.  Any other popular programs worth taking a look at?

I'm confused.  I checked the website too and it seems to be saying they have through Algebra 1 complete.  It seems that the entire program is also available through Homeschool Buyer's Co-op right now as downloads (1st thru 9th grade, including algebra 1) at a 20% discount with the potential for a 50% discount.  Are you sure the entire program isn't available right now?

[wapiti]

I'm confused.  I checked the website too and it seems to be saying they have through Algebra 1 complete.  It seems that the entire program is also available through Homeschool Buyer's Co-op right now as downloads (1st thru 9th grade, including algebra 1) at a 20% discount with the potential for a 50% discount.  Are you sure the entire program isn't available right now?

 

Sounds to me more like a Co-op typo.  If she had an alg 1 program out, it would be huge news.  Huge.  She does have non-instructional worksheets (gold) for alg 1, IIRC.

 

Eta, yes, it seems that the "grade 1-9" is referring to the worksheets portion of the everything package.  It is a little misleading.

 

• Blue: Grades 1 - 6
• Light Blue: Grades 1 - 6
• Golden/Green: Grades 1 - 8/9

 

 

OP, you'd want the Light Blue, probably, rather than the everything package, whatever it's called.

 

[redsquirrel]

I don't know that there are all that many math programs that go all the way through.  Singapore stops at 6th grade. Singapore Math does make math programs for the high school years, but they are not the same as the elementary program, just the same publisher.

 

Are you interested in something like Teaching Textbooks? K12 math?

 

My friend had her son in a math program that used DVDs and she really liked it. Was in MUS?

 

I found SM very easy to teach with just the textbook and the workbook. I did get the HIGs for the upper levels, but I didn't know about them until my son was a fourth grader. I used them for 5th and 6th grade, but mostly as answer keys. I have them all now, but rarely use them with my third grader. What I find the most useful are the videos at Education Unboxed. I watch those all the time. I look at them in the evening or on weekends to give me ideas of how to teach what we are doing that week.

[OneStepAtATime]

Sounds to me more like a Co-op typo.  If she had an alg 1 program out, it would be huge news.  Huge.  She does have non-instructional worksheets (gold) for alg 1, IIRC.

 

Eta, yes, it seems that the "grade 1-9" is referring to the worksheets portion of the everything package.  It is a little misleading.

 

 

Wow, you are right and that is misleading....

[Lori D.]

There was no HIG when we used Singapore Primary -- we just used the workbook and teacher text and went with it. :) Worked great as the spine math for my math-minded DS, and as a supplement for my math-struggler DS. But... I also felt very comfortable exploring and learning a new way of seeing math alongside my DSs, and I just had 2 DC, and no youngers to juggle at the same time. :)

 

 

Encouragement: you are in the thick of 3 students all needing you for math at this point; in another 1-2 years, that should really start to lessen. Also, once you STICK WITH a math program for a full year or two, you will really understand how to teach it, so that will drastically reduce your prep time -- and probably your teaching time as well, with your younger 2 or 3 students. Switching math programs ALWAYS takes 6-10 weeks for both you the teacher/parent AND your students to catch on to how the new program works and for it to become "routine".

 

Since you are all new to homeschooling, personally, I'd suggest ditching math for now with the 9yo and 6yo -- at most, just go with something very simple and traditional with NO prep time: The Complete Book of Math gr. 3-4 for your 9yo, and The Complete Book of Math gr. 1-2 for your 6yo -- DON'T expect -- or try! -- to get through those whole books! Just dip into different topics. (MAYBE try Miquon for both the 9yo & 6yo, if you are feeling more adventurous and want another Asian-based math that would compliment Singapore later on -- just let them experiment with it.) Do some math games, online math fun things, math videos, etc. -- let the younger 2 explore while you and oldest DC get Singapore figured out.

 

That way you can completely focus on learning how Singapore works, and how to teach it with your 12yo, which should de-stress math for everyone. :) Next year, you all will have made the transition into homeschooling, and you will have given yourself time to figure out Singapore and to assess whether it really worked or not with your 12yo, and if it will work for YOU and for the younger DC... Be gentle with yourself as you get started homeschooling in the middle of the year!  :grouphug:

 

 

Also, don't worry about finding a math to take you all the way through high school. A majority of families switch programs at the Pre-Algebra or Algebra level -- AND, they often find they need to switch 2-3 different times during the high school math years in order to have the best fit each year. It's just not as big a deal to switch to a different math program at the start of each new year with high schoolers as it is when your DC are younger.

 

Also, many families, when their students hit high school, go with an online math course, or outsource math as a dual enrollment class at the local community college or university. That could certainly lighten your math load, as well in the future...

 

 

All that said... if you really want to switch math programs to have the same publisher for everyone, and if you feel that really will fit all 3 of your DC's learning styles and your teaching style, here are programs that go all the way through, or much of the way through. Note: none are similar in method to Singapore or Math Mammoth.

 

Saxon

gr. K-12

upper levels = Pre-Algebra (Saxon 1/2) - Calculus

 

Math-U-See (MUS)

gr. K-12

upper levels = Pre-Algebra - Calculus

"Stewardship" (consumer math) option

 

Life of Fred (LoF)

gr. 1-12

upper levels = Pre-Algebra - Trigonometry

 

MEP Mathematics Enrichment Programme -- (free printable)

gr. 1-9 (9th =  Algebra 1 topics)

 

Teaching Textbooks (TT)

gr. 3-12

upper levels = Pre-Algebra - Pre-Calculus

 

Art of Problem-Solving (AoPS)

gr. 6-12

Pre-Algebra - Calculus

 

 

Christian Publishers:

 

Abeka

gr. Pre-K - 12

upper levels = Pre-Algebra - Pre-Calculus/Trigonometry

Consumer Math and Business Math options

 

Bob Jones University Press (BJUP)

gr. K-12

upper levels = Pre-Algebra - Pre-Calculus

Consumer Math option

 

Christian Light Education (CLE)

gr. 1-12

upper levels = Pre-Algebra - Functions & Trigonometry

 

Horizons (Alpha-Omega)

gr. Pre-K - 8

upper levels = Pre-Algebra - Algebra 1

 

Rod & Staff (R&S)

gr. 1-8

9th grade "Record Keeping" (consumer math/business math) option

 

Of the above options, MUS and TT are probably the least teacher-intensive (student can watch the lesson and do much of the math solo). LoF and AoPS are the most non-standard "out of the box thinking" and focus on problem-solving and developing math-thinking, and are often a good supplement, or even a spine for mathy students. MUS is very visual/hands-on and is often a great fit for math strugglers. Saxon, TT, CLE, Horizons and R&S are all pretty traditional in presentation and teaching method. Saxon is teacher-intensive and completely scripted in the early years (up through grade 3); Saxon offers the DIVE-CD with video tutorials (starting with Algebra 1) to make the high school years more independent-working.

 

 

Welcome to homeschooling! Try and relax and let this spring semester be about transitioning from school, learning how to be at home and what works for your family to learn at home. Don't stress about the math. You have lots of time to get all the details ironed out -- even with a 12yo. Really! Enjoy your journey with your DC! BEST of luck finding what works for you and your DC! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[boscopup]

I wouldn't worry about prealgebra and up being the same publisher as 6th grade math. If you do MM through grade 6, you can then easily hop into ANY prealgebra program and go from there. The high school maths don't need to all be the same publishers either. I know my high school didn't use the same publishers for Algebra, Geometry, Algebra 2/Trig, and Calculus. :)

 

Maria Miller lists on the Math Mammoth website several recommendations for Prealgebra and Algebra.

[Another Lynn]

Lori D. has great advice about using Singapore without the HIG, starting with your 12yo, and slowly adding the 9 and 6 yo in.  She's right - you are in the thick of it with math.  I understand your feelings about so many books and taking time to digest the HIG yourself, etc.  I shy away from curricula that rely heavily on any kind of TM for that very reason.  When I tried Singapore several years ago, I even thought using two books was a bit of a pain, lol.  Also, I found that it did not provide the right kind of review for my dc.  They needed to see previous topics more frequently than just the occasional review page at the end of a section (or whatever Singapore does that I'm mis-characterizing.)  If you feel like Singapore is a good fit, keep at it with the textbook and workbook.  Maybe try to read the HIG every now and then in your "free time" (yeah, right, who has that?) to see if you're missing anything in your understanding of it.  Or just set the HIG aside - no guilt. 

 

 

CLE would not satisfy your desire to have one publisher all the way through, but it does have all the teaching one place.  For an easy to use, mostly written to the student work text, it doesn't get any better than CLE.  The TM is only needed for running the lesson in 1st and maybe a bit in 2nd.  By the 300 series all the teaching and instructions are in the "light units" (worktexts).  I still spend time teaching, but it's so easy because it's all in one place and to the student.  In the upper levels, my dc were very independent with it.  It might be a really good place to start your 6yo and 9yo.  That said, I wouldn't put your 12 yo in it.  Both the 700 and 800 levels are considered pre-algebra, and I personally didn't want to spend two years in pre-algebra.  My 2nd ds went from part way through the 600 level over to Saxon Algebra 1/2 (pre algebra) without problem, but he is a pretty mathy guy.  FWIW, I have also switched my 5th grader over to Saxon (from CLE) to help her adjust to writing problems now (instead of using a workbook).  She is not as mathy as her older brother.  There are definitely problems in Saxon that require her to apply prior knowledge in a new way.  It is challenging her.  On the positive side, Saxon has the lesson in the text written to the student (though I do teach it to her), but it does have several books to keep up with - a solutions book and a testing book including tests and fact practice tests.  If you do everything in the "blue box" at the beginning of the lesson, it can make the lesson feel quite long.  We don't.  Some people prefer to do the "blue box," but then shorten the lesson by eliminating problems, but I would have no idea what problems to cut.  I think she needs them all. 

 

Okay, that was more than you wanted to know and possibly not very helpful.  CLE and Saxon are different from Singapore because they are spiral and more traditional.  So, you will need to think about which approach you like better as well as which materials work better for you as a teacher.  I would have loved to think I was using what sometimes seems like the more popular, more approved math program, but I had to admit it wasn't working well for my kids.  For some, conceptual understanding or the "why" makes more sense after they understand the "how."  But, I digress.  

 

So, yeah, I would either use Singapore differently or find materials that were easier to work with. 

 

 

[73349]

Is your youngest in the first-grade books? If it makes sense to you, you can use just the workbook and neither the HIG nor the textbook and do just fine at that level.

[KristenR]

I'm struggling with SM too but for some different reasons--   first off, I am NOT mathematically savvy AT ALL.  I struggle teaching even at an elementary level of it. My  brain releases all these -- what the heck is the opposite of endorphins??  --- whatever if it is - it's like a mini-depression.  I love the idea of the Singapore approach and hoped I would be able to manage if I used the HIG; but even with a daily reliance on the HIG- I'm struggling.  A

 

In any event, I just blogged about my frustrations and fears here and have gotten some interesting resources in the comments.  

[dbmamaz]

I never even bought the HIG and used singapore for . . . .a year, then we went free-form without much curriculum

[Dramorellis]

We use Math in Focus(which teaches the Singapore Method) and BA but I make no attempt to use all of that or both books every day. We use the text book to go over the topics and work the problems orally or on the white board. Then maybe twice a week we work those concepts in the work book. I really don't use the TM. It is pretty much laid out in the text on how to teach the concept and with hands on activity. I would not over think it personally. I am not flipping back between books. Some days we do both the text for review and the workbook for practice but not as a rule. You do not have to do it as it is presented. We skip lessons or cut them short all the time. Sometimes I flip back to the beginning to review as well. You can do whatever you want and there is no need to feel as if you need to follow the book so closely. I enjoy having more than one source of information for math however. 

[sahmoffour]

Wow.  I LOVE this forum.  Thank you, thank you, thank you to all of you.  Especially Lori D!  Thank you so much for taking the time to reply, I seriously don't know what homeschooling parents did before message boards existed!

 

Although I guess it's a double-edged sword, as I wouldn't have been as worried about dropping the HIG if I hadn't read a few older threads first.  I read post after post about how it's essential to the program, and you would miss the entire Singapore approach if you didn't read each lesson and teach the way it's meant to be taught.  I'm going to trust my gut, and stick with it for now.  We're only a week in, and I know I'm strong in math and can figure out how to teach it with just the workbooks and texts.  I guess most of my frustration is coming from the HIG being so poorly set up.  With this being our first year, I have a fear of not following each curriculum exactly as written, as I don't want to make a mistake, miss something, or teach something incorrectly.

 

So I'll try to just set the HIG aside unless I need help teaching topic, and just use the texts and workbooks.  I don't think I could set a formal curriculum aside for my 9 yr old for this year, as math is her favourite and strongest subject so she'd be in an uproar! Since she's so strong in math though, I don't think I'll have any problems in teaching her without the HIG.  I also have the entire Miquon series here, so I'll add that in once my c-rods get here.  For my boy in Gr.1, I think I just need to slow down and allow for more math games, and pull out some manipulatives for him as I think I'm pushing too hard.  I need to get out of the mindset of "We're already halfway through the school year but starting at the beginning of our books so we need to hurry up and get through them!"  

 

Then next year, if this year ends up working out okay, I'll maybe look at trying Singapore Standards as I'm using the US Edition and I've been reading that the HIG in the Standards Ed. is waaaay better.  Is the Scope and Sequence close enough to the same that we could do this year's work and switch to the following year's work in the Standards Ed. and not miss anything? Or would we need to do another placement test?

[kiana]

Then next year, if this year ends up working out okay, I'll maybe look at trying Singapore Standards as I'm using the US Edition and I've been reading that the HIG in the Standards Ed. is waaaay better.  Is the Scope and Sequence close enough to the same that we could do this year's work and switch to the following year's work in the Standards Ed. and not miss anything? Or would we need to do another placement test?

 

You can switch.

 

With respect to using the teaching guide: The only thing that I'd want to make sure is to incorporate the bar models, especially for your younger two (the oldest is old enough that he might just find algebraic solutions easier anyway). The bar models really help build algebraic thinking in younger children.

[Jen in NY]

With respect to using the teaching guide: The only thing that I'd want to make sure is to incorporate the bar models, especially for your younger two (the oldest is old enough that he might just find algebraic solutions easier anyway). The bar models really help build algebraic thinking in younger children.

Totally agree with this - even though is has been years since any of my math minded kiddos did Singapore, I still see them toting out the bar model method regularly. And, as I *ahem* slowly make my way through AoPS Algebra myself, I have found it helpful on more than a number of occasions. Helps this non-mathy mom visualize.

[TheApprentice]

Being new to homeschooling can be daunting, and so I understand you wanting to keep it simple with 3 dc (and adding 1 in the near future).

 

My advice early is to do what works for your family, not so much what is "popular". So if CLE Math works for your children, I'd use it. If Saxon works for your family, I'd use it. My oldest ds, doing 10th grade level work, is currently using Saxon Advanced Math. He's doing really well, and did extremely well on the math portion on the PSAT.

 

An option for you to considering would be Derek Owen's classes (distant learning), especially for your older dc because it goes through high school and it's very independent.

 

The biggest take away from my post is to do what works for YOU and your children.

[TianXiaXueXiao]

Three days in, and I can already tell!  I HATE the HIG.  Takes far too long to read through what I'm supposed to teach that day, and even though math was my best subject in school, I'm not loving the way it's being taught.  I don't have the time to read each HIG guide before I teach with 3 kids in separate levels, and one more up and coming. I also hate all the shuffling between the books.  I end up with books spread all over my kitchen table, shuffling between each one trying to find the one I'm looking for.  I'm finding I need an open and go, scripted to the student type of program.  Any suggestions? I was loving the looks of MM until I noticed it doesn't go past Gr.6.  My oldest is currently in Gr.6 so I'd prefer something that will carry him through to graduation.  I'm really unsure at this point on whether mastery or spiral works better for each of my kids, as this is our first  year homeschooling.  We pulled the kids out at Christmas break so we're literally, just getting started.

 

I can totally relate! I wanted so badly to love Singapore, but I just could not get over how annoying it was to juggle the HIG with the text and workbook. In 4th grade, my daughter was constantly distracted by the cartoon characters and colors all over the page. I can see how some families would love it, but it did not work for us. We have been hopping around with math curricula this year and are back to Saxon Math. We started the year on Saxon Intermediate 5, moved to a different program, and now we are using Saxon HS 65 after discovering that several lesson pages were missing from my copy of Saxon Intermediate 5. Many people believe that Saxon's original homeschool series is the tried and true program and they will not switch from it. Have you given Saxon a try? The verdict is still out for us since we just started, but I am hopeful that we will be able to use Saxon until we transition to Algebra and high school math. HTH

[marlowefamily]

Honestly, on a typical day:

 

I'll pull out both of the kids singapore workbooks, scan the next two pages they haven't yet done (our goal is two pages every day of the week), review in my head whether they can handle it easily on their own - if they can, I give it to them and have them do the pages, and then I check the work and go through each step of the problems they got wrong.  I may then make up other problems to make sure they really understood.

 

If the kids are seeing a new concept for the first time or if I think it is difficult, I might get out the textbook or teachers guide - review it, and then bring the kids into the living room and pull out a whiteboard to 'teach' them the concept...and we'll explore where that concept takes us.  I'll make up several problems and have the kids compete to see who can solve them first, or let them take turns solving made up problems.  Then, I'll give them the text to quickly scan before they start doing the workbook. 

 

Occasionally, if the kids are caught up where they should be and I'm not worried about being able to complete the workbook on schedule, I'll bring out the test book or the math sprints.  The test books provide that added challenge and review that makes sure that they haven't forgotten what they've done in the workbooks. And, the math sprints are great ...especially with boys, and definitely if you combine it with having them run a lap around the house between the two phases of the sprint. 

 

If I'm having trouble teaching something, I just open up khan academy..and let the kids watch the videos for the topic.    There isn't much need for anything more in K-6 grades.   We'll consider switching to AOPS when the oldest reaches algebra.

 

 

[sahmoffour]

Thanks guys.  :grouphug:

 

We did our math today, and it was way less stressful!  I didn't even open the HIG's.  Just went over the pages in the textbook with them and had them answer the questions orally or on the whiteboard, then sent them to work in their workbooks and checked them over after.  Easy Peasy!

 

Thanks for the reminder to loosen up and not stress so much about doing every little thing "by the book".  I'm sure there's a time and place for the HIG, and if we get to a concept they struggle with then I'll pull it out.  Until then, they're staying in my closet!  :001_smile: