Do you use standardized tests?

[MinivanMom]

I agree with the above, but don't think it is an accurate representaion of standardized tests. One doesn't have to test writing on the ITBS. (Believe it is an opitional  - additional - test?) We do the ITBS every other year and I have never tested my child's writing.

The core of the ITBS covers vocab, reading comp, spelling, grammar, math concepts and math computation.

Science, 'social studies' and reference skills are optional. You may or may not give those to your child and they score with and without those added in. (That is for our non-reg state, don't know if other states require additional.)

 

This.

 

We are in a state that requires testing, but we only have to test in the areas of reading, language, spelling, and math, so I don't have to make my kids complete the science, social studies, and reference sections if I don't want to. I've always chosen to have them do those sections anyway for practice, and they've done very well despite the fact that we are following a chronological history/science rotation rather than the typical sequence.

 

There aren't writing sections on any of the popular standardized tests, so I'm a little confused about the direction this conversation has taken. There are writing sections now for SAT & ACT, but those are college entrance exams more than the type of standardized tests the op was asking about. Nobody thinks SAT or ACT (or for that matter AP short-answer & DBQ's) test good writing. In fact, many colleges look at the SAT & ACT scores without writing when making admissions decisions, because the shortcomings of the writing tests are so well known. Still, I think that a child who has been taught good, academic writing skills should have no problem whipping out a quick essay for SAT writing or a DBQ-essay on an AP test if they are exposed to the formula and scoring system ahead of time. I can probably add this to my previous statement:

 

The best preparation for any standardized test is a full, rich education.

&

The best preparation for a writing test is solid, academic writing skills.

 

. . . not because SAT writing is testing good writing skills (far from it), but because a kid with solid writing skills can master the "formula" to do well on any type of writing test.

 

[Alice]

I had ds do one last year in 4th grade for the first time. We are in Virginia and can use a standardized test as means of showing progress or get an evaluation by an outside evaluator. Other years we used an evaluator (you can use anyone with a masters degree or teaching license, I have a good friend who has both and did the evaluation for us). 

 

We used the ITBS last year because our co-op administers it so it was easy. I did it because I thought it would be a good idea for him to experience testing at some point. I think standardized test-taking is a skill and I thought it would be good for him to just have the experience of it in a situation where it didn’t really matter. I didn’t do anything to prep him or have him study anything special or different from what we would otherwise have studied. I did show him how to mark the bubbles and talk about things like that it might be boring but you still have to do it or that there might be questions they expect you not to know at all.  

 

In the end I thought it was a good experience just for the experience. It didn’t really take away much time from our normal schedule, just the days of the test itself. The results were semi-useful. We learned that he was strong in the areas I knew he was strong in and weak in the areas I knew he was weak in. :) He did take the science and history/social studies sections because that was the one the co-op had chosen. It was gratifying to me that he did very well in those sections despite having followed a WTM sequence which I’m sure is very different from the normal sequence. 

 

We may have him do a test again at the end of this year or next year in order to try to qualify for CTY, mostly because I would like to have the option of using some of their online courses for middle and high school. If we don’t do that my plan is to have him take another test in a year or so, I’m not sure it’s necessary every year but I think it’s a skill that it doesn’t hurt to practice a few times before taking the big tests like the SAT. 

[Arcadia]

 

We may have him do a test again at the end of this year or next year in order to try to qualify for CTY, mostly because I would like to have the option of using some of their online courses for middle and high school.

You can apply for your child to take the SCAT for CTY JHU without any test scores.  I just choose parent instead of test scores when I apply for my kids (2nd & 4th grade).

[Jaybee]

I mentioned that I have them test for the experience. But that does not involve teaching to the test or changing things we do. The only thing I do that could be seen as different because of the test is that I work on short comprehension passages for reading with my youngest. Because that is a weak skill of his that he needs help with due to dyslexia--reading carefully to make sure he is getting the meaning of the words. 

 

When it comes time for ACT/SAT testing, we will do some prep work, because merit scholarships are necessary for our kids. Those hours of test prep can result in thousands of dollars worth of aid that they might not receive otherwise. But our whole curriculum will not be skewed because of it.

[JumpyTheFrog]

We haven't done any standardized tests yet, but we did do the DORA for reading and ADAM for math. They adjust the difficulty based on how well the student is doing. The ADAM showed that Tigger was weak in geometry (3D shapes and such) and showed me which areas I had neglected. The DORA showed what I already knew, that Tigger's spelling is way behind his reading level.

 

Both of the above tests are offered through Let's Go Learn. I linked to them through the Homeschool Buyer's Co-op because (last I checked, anyway), it's $5 cheaper through them.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

I mentioned that I have them test for the experience. But that does not involve teaching to the test or changing things we do. The only thing I do that could be seen as different because of the test is that I work on short comprehension passages for reading with my youngest. Because that is a weak skill of his that he needs help with due to dyslexia--reading carefully to make sure he is getting the meaning of the words. 

 

When it comes time for ACT/SAT testing, we will do some prep work, because merit scholarships are necessary for our kids. Those hours of test prep can result in thousands of dollars worth of aid that they might not receive otherwise. But our whole curriculum will not be skewed because of it.

 

This is what I mean by test prep as well. I don't mean teaching to the test.

 

Test prep in our home starts with discussing filling in bubbles and builds up to dealing mentally with working through a 3-4 hour test.

 

In the early years, our discussions of bubble sheets, test taking strategies, and working on sample tests took 10 min or so a day several weeks before the test. The test itself took roughly 2 hours.

 

ACT prep for us involved working on a few extra math problems a day and working through a few English, reading, or science questions. Hmm...maybe half an hour. On days she wanted to do more math, it was closer to an hour. We also discussed some test taking strategies here and there. From drop off to pick up, the test was 4 hours.

 

Learning test taking strategies and taking a yearly test honestly doesn't take much time away from our usual 9am-6pm studies. It's an addition--not a replacement.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

For anyone following TWTM (loosely, closely, or somewhere in-between), standardized testing recommendations and test prep suggestions for the younger grades through the ACT/SAT are in chapter 40 of the newest edition.

 

(This is one of the resources I've always used as a guide for testing and test prep.)

 

 

[boscopup]

As the CogAt is designed to be an aptitude test, it based on age, not grade. It can be given at any time, but you'll get more info if you give it WITH the ITBS. You'll get more info if you give it at same time every year, or every other year--whenever you test.

 

Somewhat off topic, but does anyone have an opinion on CogAt vs. OLSAT? I'd like to give my 4th grader a test this spring, and would either do ITBS/CogAt or SAT10/OLSAT. The ITBS combo is cheaper, but the SAT is what schools in my area have always used (even when I was itty bitty 30 years ago :D ). I can give either one myself at home. Has anyone done both and has an opinion on which one gives more useful info?

 

ETA: Ok, ITBS is same price as SAT10 again. Last year, BJU had $10 difference between the two, but right now they're the same price there, and A Beka has an even cheaper price for both of those combos which are the same price between the two, so price doesn't factor in at all.

[Arcadia]

Somewhat off topic, but does anyone have an opinion on CogAt vs. OLSAT? I'd like to give my 4th grader a test this spring, and would either do ITBS/CogAt or SAT10/OLSAT. The ITBS combo is cheaper, but the SAT is what schools in my area have always used (even when I was itty bitty 30 years ago :D ).

My boys did the SAT10/OLSAT combo. My just turn 9, 4th grader did both SAT10 and OLSAT for 4th grade.  My just turn 8, 2nd grader did SAT10 for 3rd grade and OLSAT for 4th grade.  To be honest, the OLSAT was useless to me even though their OLSAT results led hubby to go for the CTY information session and to pay for our boys to take SCAT.  The math scores for SAT10 was useless to me but that is because my boys are accelerated in math and not because of the test,

No idea about ITBS or CogAT.

 

ETA:

Your older would likely hit the ceiling for the math portion for SAT10 if he is taking the 4th grade test. Unfortunately for SAT10, you can't choose math to be at a different level than the other sections.

[boscopup]

Arcadia, I may test him above level. He is accelerated across the board except writing, and writing isn't tested. ;)

[speedmom4]

Out state mandates that we administer a standardized test every year. I have found it not to be terribly informative. Basically I already knew their strong areas and their weak areas. I do think it is good practice for future test taking for college entrance.

 

Good luck!

 

Elise in NC

[MinivanMom]

The problem with the Stanford is that (at least by getting it through BJUP) is that you can't test your own kids with it unless you have several other children the EXACT same grade level. That's one of the things I like about the ITBS, that I can test 3-8 at the same time. The Stanford is given by grade, not the grade range. I also like the fact that it's timed. One of the reasons I give the ITBS is to learn to deal with the timed format. I haven't given the Stanford/OLSAT for years.

 

This was also a factor for us in choosing the ITBS/CogAT over the Stanford/OLSAT. The tests are very, very similar in terms of structure and info given, but the ITBS & CogAT are so much easier to give in a home environment.

 

[boscopup]

The Stanford no longer has those requirements about testing other kids. You can test just your kid at home now.

 

ETA: They may still require different grade levels to be separated, but that doesn't affect me this year, as I would only be testing my 4th grader.

[RootAnn]

I test every couple of years with the ITBS starting in 3rd/4th grade. It is helpful for us. In most cases, it doesn't tell us what we don't already know.

-However, I was surprised last time by dd#2's high reading comprehension scores as she had struggled with reading for so long. She actually scored *higher* at the same 'grade' than her much-better-and-faster-reading sister had.  :blink: 

-Her math scores were even more dismal than I would have guessed (probably because of the timing element causing more stress).

-She also scored *very* poorly on her map skills, which I already knew she was weak at. It helped validate my purchase of another 'map skills' curriculum for this school year (when I usually only use something every other year). I'd already bought it - so when dh freaked out at the map skills subscore, I was able to pull out the book we're using this year to reassure him that I was already on it.

 

-Dd#1's percentile on the CogAt would qualify her for the local 'gifted and talented' program which surprised both dh & I.  :001_unsure:  (The CogAt addition this last time didn't end up being very helpful for us. Your mileage may vary.) She's one of my 'average' kids.

 

I do it yearly only so I have something to show how DD compares to others in her grade. We tested with a homeschool group until last year, and then DD moved to taking the EXPLORE (which gives her two scores-one compared to 8th graders and one compared to kids in her grade), which also makes her eligible for talent search classes. We'll move to doing the ACT or SAT in middle school, again, both for talent search and because it's a known standardized test.

 

Had you seen that the EXPLORE is going away? I might look into Aspire at some point -- once it is in place for a couple of years.

 

I might have dd#1 do the ACT or SAT next spring (2015) instead of the ITBS. 

[ElizabethB]

 

-However, I was surprised last time by dd#2's high reading comprehension scores as she had struggled with reading for so long. She actually scored *higher* at the same 'grade' than her much-better-and-faster-reading sister had.  :blink:

 

 

With a good reader whose reading is automatic, you have to make sure they are paying attention to boring passages.  I had the problem the first time my daughter tested, she actually did better with the harder stories because she thought they were more interesting.  

 

Have her read the questions first and then pay attention to boring stories and boring questions, worked for my daughter, LOL.

[RootAnn]

With a good reader whose reading is automatic, you have to make sure they are paying attention to boring passages.  I had the problem the first time my daughter tested, she actually did better with the harder stories because she thought they were more interesting.  

 

Have her read the questions first and then pay attention to boring stories and boring questions, worked for my daughter, LOL.

 

They both scored very well (4th grade test) and the older one continued to score well on the 6th grade test. We were both shocked that dd#2 had 'caught up' with dd#1 in 'reading level' ability and comprehension (according to ITBS metrics) despite having only 'taken off' in reading a short time (less than a year) before vs. 2-3 years in dd#1. 

 

This is great advice for all standardized tests & something I mention as a 'test taking skill' although I don't harp on it. I know I didn't always have to read the whole passage on the ACT/SAT tests due to this type of strategy. It reminds me of teaching them to take the multiple choice answers from the math section and plug them back into the problem vs. trying the problem from scratch. Test taking is a whole 'nother skill, IMO.

 

DH sees the value in learning how to take tests because he has to take them as part of his job (constant retraining & qualifications as part of the nuclear energy field). We don't spend much time on tests or test-taking strategies, but we do discuss them as they come up in everyday life and in our every-other-year-testing schedule (not required by our state).

[PeachyDoodle]

We're in a state that requires us to test yearly (NC), and while I don't put a ton of stock in it, it doesn't bother me either.  But this is our first year, and I'm terribly confused about all the different tests and what they mean. Does anyone know of a good resource that compares some of the different ones in plain language? Most of what I've been able to find is filled with jargon, and as I have no background in education, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. (Or maybe it's just that it makes my eyes glaze over in boredom, in which case, if it's the only info out there, I'll try to suck it up.)

 

I would love something that will help me assess dd's academic levels. I suspect she could move much more quickly than we have so far, pretty much in every subject, but I'm not sure how to proceed with that. Our pediatrician suggested a local firm that specializes in IQ and achievement testing, but that's different from what we're discussing here, correct?

 

My friend uses the Woodcock-Johnson and said it has given her some useful feedback on her ds's strengths/weaknesses... anybody used W-J before?

 

{Sorry for all the questions...}

[Woodland Mist Academy]

 

I would love something that will help me assess dd's academic levels. I suspect she could move much more quickly than we have so far, pretty much in every subject, but I'm not sure how to proceed with that. Our pediatrician suggested a local firm that specializes in IQ and achievement testing, but that's different from what we're discussing here, correct?

 

My friend uses the Woodcock-Johnson and said it has given her some useful feedback on her ds's strengths/weaknesses... anybody used W-J before?

 

{Sorry for all the questions...}

 

Yes, the IQ test your pediatrician suggested is different from the ones being discussed here.

 

I've not used the W-J test, but I will give this thread a bump in the hopes you will find some answers.

[regentrude]

I would love something that will help me assess dd's academic levels. I suspect she could move much more quickly than we have so far, pretty much in every subject, but I'm not sure how to proceed with that. Our pediatrician suggested a local firm that specializes in IQ and achievement testing, but that's different from what we're discussing here, correct?

 

My friend uses the Woodcock-Johnson and said it has given her some useful feedback on her ds's strengths/weaknesses... anybody used W-J before?

 

I am a bit puzzled about this question. Please understand that I am not trying to be snarky, I am genuinely curious: since you are homeschooling, you experience your DD's academic work every.single.day and would know whether she is struggling, doing just fine, or being insufficiently challenged just from the work she does. Why would you expect some standardized test to give you better insights into her strengths and weaknesses than your daily parental observations or her school work?

 

If everything is easy and she gets everything always correct, she is not sufficiently challenged and the curriculum is too easy for her. Go faster, use harder materials.

If she is overwhelmed, frustrated and struggling a lot, the level of materials is too high. Go slower, use easier materials.

If she is getting most, having occasional trouble with a problem, getting about 80% correct in math, the level of materials is just right.

 

 

 

 

[Chrysalis Academy]

I am a bit puzzled about this question. Please understand that I am not trying to be snarky, I am genuinely curious: since you are homeschooling, you experience your DD's academic work every.single.day and would know whether she is struggling, doing just fine, or being insufficiently challenged just from the work she does. Why would you expect some standardized test to give you better insights into her strengths and weaknesses than your daily parental observations or her school work?

 

If everything is easy and she gets everything always correct, she is not sufficiently challenged and the curriculum is too easy for her. Go faster, use harder materials.

If she is overwhelmed, frustrated and struggling a lot, the level of materials is too high. Go slower, use easier materials.

If she is getting most, having occasional trouble with a problem, getting about 80% correct in math, the level of materials is just right.

 

Wow!  Really?  I'm so glad you said that out loud.  I have a hard time getting past thinking that she needs to be scoring close to perfect (over 90%, at least) before I can consider something mastered and move on.  I have a hard time judging whether math is too easy or just right for my 6th grader.  By this criteria, it's definitely way too easy.

 

I'm definitely planning on doing testing at the end of this year, or whenever we "finish" preAlgebra.  What I expect it to show me is where there are holes, anything we need to spend more time on, before we start Algebra.  I like testing for this kind of targeted and specific reason.  I've been thinking about doing the DOMA, although I know there are a lot of PreAlgebra pretests/posttests out there.

[regentrude]

Wow!  Really?  I'm so glad you said that out loud.  I have a hard time getting past thinking that she needs to be scoring close to perfect (over 90%, at least) before I can consider something mastered and move on

 

Search for Richard Rusczyk (the founder of AoPS) and "tyranny of the 100 percent".

 

if you’re always getting a hundred percent on everything, you are not learning efficiently enough. You’re not learning as fast as you can and you’re not learning how to do things you haven’t seen before.....

If the first time they can’t do something is college, they get so used to just being able to do everything because they’re “smart,†that once

they can’t do something, they figure, “I’ve hit the wall. I can’t do this anymore. I’m quitting.â€

That’s another thing that the tyranny of 100%encourages in students. It encourages them to think, “I can do all this because I am so smart,â€

and once you can’t do it, then you’re done, while smarter people can go on. That’s just not the case.

 

For daily work, I absolutely do not expect my students to get every problem correct every single time, or even 90%. That would mean that they are working below their true potential, that they do not have to stretch themselves and puzzle about hard problems.

When I assess their cumulative mastery at the end of the semester, I do expect 90%+ for the exam I design based on what they should have learned. But for daily work, they need to wrestle with the problems, not crank out perfectly correct drill worksheets with dozens of similar problems.

[Chrysalis Academy]

 

Search for Richard Rusczyk (the founder of AoPS) and "tyranny of the 100 percent".

 

 

For daily work, I absolutely do not expect my students to get every problem correct every single time, or even 90%. That would mean that they are working below their true potential, that they do not have to stretch themselves and puzzle about hard problems.

When I assess their cumulative mastery at the end of the semester, i do expect 90%+ for the exam I design, based on what they should have learned. But for daily work, they need to wrestle with the problems, not crank out perfectly filled out drill worksheets with dozens of similar problems.

 

 

 

Thank you.  I've heard you (and others) say this before, I've read the article, and watched his talk . . . maybe, it will eventually sink in . . .  :leaving:

 

It's like, I know this to be true, intellectually?  But I have a really hard time putting it into practice.  Obviously, I need to kick things up a notch.

[Roadrunner]

Regentrude, would you expect 80% on the challenge problems in Aops or review problems? I have a year to go before we hit preA, but I am preparing :)

Also, when you do assessment, what % of problems on the test are challenging?

 

 

My kid did STAR test through school last year and it was a joke. With an exception of two categories, for which he scored 94% or so, he got 100% across the board. I would like to do an assessment at the end of the year, but I don't know what to use.

[regentrude]

Regentrude, would you expect 80% on the challenge problems in Aops or review problems? I have a year to go before we hit preA, but I am preparing :)

Also, when you do assessment, what % of problems on the test are challenging?

 

Hard to say - it's a "I know it when I see it" situation and varies from chapter to chapter.

It's a progression. I do not expect them to get all the chapter opening problems independently; this is where I expect struggle. They may need help on some of the end-of section exercises. Typically, by the end of the chapter they get all the regular review problems correct because the material has been mastered, and some, but not all, of the challenge problems.

 

I give a comprehensive final exam over the material of the entire semester. I design the exam to reflect what I expect my student to have mastered and retained in the long term, and I design it to be completed within a hour or 1.5 hours. This means that I do not give challenge problems on the exam, because a single challenge problem the student has not seen before can easily take up an hour or more, or may not be solvable at all. (To me, the challenge problems are the "overtraining" that stretches the student's abilities; it's like doing the occasional half-marathon in preparation for a 10k race. They are not, in my opinion, a suitable bar for mastery of, say "algebra" or "geometry". )

My exams are still harder than an exam I would expect with a traditional text: AoPS level regular problems, maybe some starred ones - but no challenge problems or problems with a star and three hints.

[Roadrunner]

Hard to say - it's a "I know it when I see it" situation and varies from chapter to chapter.

It's a progression. I do not expect them to get all the chapter opening problems independently; this is where I expect struggle. They may need help on some of the end-of section exercises. Typically, by the end of the chapter they get all the regular review problems correct because the material has been mastered, and some, but not all, of the challenge problems.

 

I give a comprehensive final exam over the material of the entire semester. I design the exam to reflect what I expect my student to have mastered and retained in the long term, and I design it to be completed within a hour or 1.5 hours. This means that I do not give challenge problems on the exam, because a single challenge problem the student has not seen before can easily take up an hour or more, or may not be solvable at all. (To me, the challenge problems are the "overtraining" that stretches the student's abilities; it's like doing the occasional half-marathon in preparation for a 10k race. They are not, in my opinion, a suitable bar for mastery of, say "algebra" or "geometry". )

My exams are still harder than an exam I would expect with a traditional text: AoPS level regular problems, maybe some starred ones - but no challenge problems or problems with a star and three hints.

This is very helpful. Thank you!