Do we need a new attitude to survive common core?

[SKL]

I'm not trying to be political at all.  I am truly neutral on the need for a common core.  That said, some of this "explain why" stuff and other strangeness is getting on my nerves.

 

For one thing, I'm pretty smart and a good teacher, yet I don't know how to advise my kids on some of this stuff.  Yesterday their homework said "Here are 20 stars. Prove it."  Followed by a picture with 4 lines of 5 stars.  No further explanation of what they were looking for.  Each of my kids came up with a different answer, and I honestly don't know what they are looking for.  That's just one example.

 

Then there are those word associations that my kid flunks because her life experience is different from whoever made the worksheet.  (You know, like knowing that *all* snowmen have arms made of sticks.)  Why they are testing our kids on life experience / social trends rather than academic skills, I don't know.

 

Since a lot of this stuff is unpredictable, arbitrary, and not important to our kids' future, I am struggling with the fact that their grades are so affected.  Presumably if they suck on the tests, there will be pressure to do "something" about it.  What, I don't know.

 

Maybe this is just a rant.  Is anyone else seeing these issues?  Or is my kid the only one who doesn't know how to properly build a snowman?  (Note to self:  this child must never apply to a snowman-building job!)  What is your attitude about the unpredictable, the uncontrollable, the irrelevant stuff that finds its way into the grade book?  When I say attitude, I mean, how do you deal with your kids on these things?

[Wildiris]

Your examples worry me. It seems to me that the goals of the Common Core standards are admirable. 

 

From grade 5 math: 

• CCSS.Math.Content.5.OA.A.1 Use parentheses, brackets, or braces in numerical expressions, and evaluate expressions with these symbols.
• CCSS.Math.Content.5.OA.A.2 Write simple expressions that record calculations with numbers, and interpret numerical expressions without evaluating them. For example, express the calculation “add 8 and 7, then multiply by 2†as 2 × (8 + 7). Recognize that 3 × (18932 + 921) is three times as large as 18932 + 921, without having to calculate the indicated sum or product.

Again, it seems to me the problem with any new education reform is not the tenet of the reform but how the reform is translated into texts, workbooks, and teaching. 

This Common Core test practice site poses math problems that don't seem too far afield and not as muddled as the examples above.

What is the Common Core?

"Quietly initiated five years ago by the National Governors Association and the Council of Chief State School Officers, the first stage was to develop and then implement rigorous new standards in English and math, with an emphasis on critical thinking, reading complex materials (nonfiction especially), and learning core math concepts rather than rote memorization. Common Core does not dictate what books or topics a school can cover—teachers still design their own courses and pick their own reading lists—but rather sets specific expectations for what students should be able to do. For seventh-grade English, for instance, students should be able to compare and contrast a written passage with an audio or video version of the same material, analyzing how the different formats affect the impact of the words." Slate

 

I think the US is embarrassed at their poor performance on international tests. The US was once first, and now we are behind. If only lawmakers would invest in teacher development the way Finland has, then maybe our education system would thrive regardless of the standard du jour. The Common Core places a high emphasis on logic and critical thinking, yet the developers did not think critically about how to take their valuable goals and implement them in a way that assured success if the above example is what is to be expected. However, the Common core is one step forward for teachers. Teachers are now given the freedom to design their own courses and choose their own reading lists. This is a big change from the one-size-fits-all approach of the past and not too much different from homeschooling.

[EKS]

I think that what people are having issues with is not the Common Core per se, but the instructional materials that claim to be aligned with it. 

 

I am certain that there is not a CC standard that says that a child needs to "prove" that a 4x5 array has 20 elements.  That is a problem with the person/publisher who created the worksheet.  I would hope that the teacher explained what she was looking for in class, but I am well aware that kids don't necessarily remember such things when it comes time for doing homework.

 

Are your kids in 2nd grade?  I think this is the standard that this problem stems from:

 

Work with equal groups of objects to gain foundations for
multiplication.

4. Use addition to find the total number of objects arranged in
rectangular arrays with up to 5 rows and up to 5 columns; write an
equation to express the total as a sum of equal addends.

 

As you can see, the standard itself is not the problem. 

[SKL]

I think that what people are having issues with is not the Common Core per se, but the instructional materials that claim to be aligned with it. 

 

I am certain that there is not a CC standard that says that a child needs to "prove" that a 4x5 array has 20 elements.  That is a problem with the person/publisher who created the worksheet.  I would hope that the teacher explained what she was looking for in class, but I am well aware that kids don't necessarily remember such things when it comes time for doing homework.

 

Are your kids in 2nd grade?  I think this is the standard that this problem stems from:

 

Work with equal groups of objects to gain foundations for

multiplication.

 

4. Use addition to find the total number of objects arranged in

rectangular arrays with up to 5 rows and up to 5 columns; write an

equation to express the total as a sum of equal addends.

 

As you can see, the standard itself is not the problem. 

 

Thanks for this.  Yes, this is 2nd grade.  Interestingly, Miss A was the one who did this right, if this is what the goal was.  Miss A wrote a vertical equation showing that 5+5+5+5=20.  Miss E wrote "10 + 10 = 20" and then I suggested that since she was looking at them in groups of 10s, she should draw brackets to show that.

 

I don't mind the concept, I just think the way they write the problems often requires the kids to read minds.  Presumably that is not the intent, but whoever is writing this stuff isn't smart about it or something.  I see multiple examples of this each week.  A kid may well know the skill/concept but have no idea what the question is asking.

[EKS]

Was this a teacher made worksheet or did it come from the program they're using?  If it came from a program, which program is it?

[beishan]

Our school switches to new math curriculum (GO MATH) due to common core as well. I had issue with that at the beginning and now I think I am getting it. Yes, " 5+5+5+5=20" is something they want to see. In my son's homework, he has this "explain why" thing on every word problem. They are not looking for something real compicated, but want children to express in words or picture to demostrate their understanding of the concept. Like one of the word problem he had earlier last month is:

 

 

There are 6 ants on the log. Then there are 8 ants coming to the log. How many ants are there on the log? Please explain in words or picture.

 

 

It's a simple word problem that he can do in first grade already. He wrote answer 14 directly but does not know how to put explanation in words. I asked him at least wrote down the math equation to show how he get 14. However, they not only want the equation, they also want him to explain in words. It once confused me. Later I realized that the teacher just wanted to see something like "I add up 6 ants and 8 ants to get 14 ants in total". Nothing fancy or complicated.

[SKL]

I don't mind this sort of thing once in a while, but it takes a lot of time, and at some point it doesn't add anything.  I never had to explain my math calculations until high school, yet I certainly understood well enough to apply the appropriate skill at the appropriate time.  Verbalizing a simple mathematical thought process is not even a math skill IMO.  It would be like asking a kid to explain why we alternate feet when we walk, and have the results go on his gym grade.

[EKS]

I *highly* recommend getting the teacher manuals for whatever program the school is using.  It will make your life so much easier!  It will allow you to see what the expectations are so that you can tailor the help you give to those expectations. 

 

[vonfirmath]

Maybe this is just a rant.  Is anyone else seeing these issues?  Or is my kid the only one who doesn't know how to properly build a snowman?  (Note to self:  this child must never apply to a snowman-building job!)  What is your attitude about the unpredictable, the uncontrollable, the irrelevant stuff that finds its way into the grade book?  When I say attitude, I mean, how do you deal with your kids on these things?

 

I'm going to have to ask my son tonight. Since it doesn't even snow here, *I* didn't know that snowmen arms were made out of sticks! Does Frosty have stick arms? I know about the carrot nose and the top hat. Maybe coal eyes? But I don't see arms when I think of him.I wonder what my 6 year old will say.

[vonfirmath]

Our school switches to new math curriculum (GO MATH) due to common core as well. I had issue with that at the beginning and now I think I am getting it. Yes, " 5+5+5+5=20" is something they want to see. In my son's homework, he has this "explain why" thing on every word problem. They are not looking for something real compicated, but want children to express in words or picture to demostrate their understanding of the concept. Like one of the word problem he had earlier last month is:

 

 

There are 6 ants on the log. Then there are 8 ants coming to the log. How many ants are there on the log? Please explain in words or picture.

 

 

It's a simple word problem that he can do in first grade already. He wrote answer 14 directly but does not know how to put explanation in words. I asked him at least wrote down the math equation to show how he get 14. However, they not only want the equation, they also want him to explain in words. It once confused me. Later I realized that the teacher just wanted to see something like "I add up 6 ants and 8 ants to get 14 ants in total". Nothing fancy or complicated.

 

For that sort of question (Which my son is getting this year in 1st grade despite no Common Core in our state) my son is drawing 6 As in a group. Then 8 As in a group and writing "14 ants"

[mathnerd]

We have been in "early implementation" program for CC for almost 2 years now. We have gotten used to it. We have homework that asks to explain the steps used to arrive at the answers. We see a lot of this in the "Critical Thinking and Logic" subject and the Saxon Math homework sheets.

For the "Logic" subject: one worksheet had a bunch of pictures of toys. The task was to "categorize" them into groups and draw a picture of the categorization and there were 3 lines in the bottom of the page asking the student to explain how they got the answer. My child cannot draw well - so he drew stick figures to represent dolls in one pile and then some boxes to represent automobiles in another pile. He wrote that he classified the toys based on whether they were dolls or a mode of transportation. The teacher seemed to think that it was an adequate answer.

 

My main problem with all this is the utter waste of time - CC had good ideas. But, I think elementary math as taught in elementary grades in the US that is already slow paced, spiral, unchallenging now moves at a snail's pace with new requirements of sentence writing and coloring and explaining thrown in. I was looking at my son's math homework last night - he needed 6 different crayons to color and draw pictures in order to finish it. I was shaking my head and thinking, this should be called "art homework" with all these "explain with a picture" questions.

[trulycrabby]

I'm not necessarily opposed to Common Core, but afraid that our state will use CC as an excuse to impose oversight on homeschooling families.

[SKL]

 

My main problem with all this is the utter waste of time - CC had good ideas. But, I think elementary math as taught in elementary grades in the US that is already slow paced, spiral, unchallenging now moves at a snail's pace with new requirements of sentence writing and coloring and explaining thrown in. I was looking at my son's math homework last night - he needed 6 different crayons to color and draw pictures in order to finish it. I was shaking my head and thinking, this should be called "art homework" with all these "explain with a picture" questions.

 

This is how I'm feeling too.  Except that at the same time as they are asked to draw all these frogs on a log etc. etc., they are also being given rather complex problem solving such as the following (for example):

 

"Draw a bar model to help you:

A letter carrier delivered a total of 925 letters on Monday and Tuesday.  If he delivered 569 on Monday, how many did he deliver on Tuesday?"

 

This is a challenge for one of my 2nd graders to set up and compute.  The time she spends on math would be better spent practicing the hard stuff, not drawing pretty pictures of the obvious stuff IMO.  And not wondering what they mean by "prove it."

[vonfirmath]

(How is a bar model supposed to HELP You? You'd have to know the answer to know how long to make each bar.

 

Oh they want you to draw a line that is 925 long and then mark it off in the middle and label one side as 569.

[jennynd]

Our school switches to new math curriculum (GO MATH) due to common core as well. I had issue with that at the beginning and now I think I am getting it. Yes, " 5+5+5+5=20" is something they want to see. In my son's homework, he has this "explain why" thing on every word problem. They are not looking for something real compicated, but want children to express in words or picture to demostrate their understanding of the concept. Like one of the word problem he had earlier last month is:

 

 

.

DS school uses go math too and EVERYONE is complaining. They not only want to see a expanation, they want to see one kind of explanation. Others won't do. I have no problem with common core and DS scored really well in standardized test last school year. (NY's first Time adopt CC in standardized test). from the release annotated Questions, iI know student can answer question many diffent ways. But that is not what I see in go math. And it is not the teacher's fault either. I know my DS home room teacher (not same as math teacher) does not agree with go math. She just shook her head when I mentioned it in conference and said that don't get her started with the CC math. And DS math teacher also comment on that she doesn't agree with how math is taught in go math. She made that comment in front all students.

It is rather frustrating.

[ocelotmom]

Our school switches to new math curriculum (GO MATH) due to common core as well. I had issue with that at the beginning and now I think I am getting it. Yes, " 5+5+5+5=20" is something they want to see. In my son's homework, he has this "explain why" thing on every word problem. They are not looking for something real compicated, but want children to express in words or picture to demostrate their understanding of the concept. Like one of the word problem he had earlier last month is:

 

 

There are 6 ants on the log. Then there are 8 ants coming to the log. How many ants are there on the log? Please explain in words or picture.

 

 

It's a simple word problem that he can do in first grade already. He wrote answer 14 directly but does not know how to put explanation in words. I asked him at least wrote down the math equation to show how he get 14. However, they not only want the equation, they also want him to explain in words. It once confused me. Later I realized that the teacher just wanted to see something like "I add up 6 ants and 8 ants to get 14 ants in total". Nothing fancy or complicated.

 

If the answer is 14, I would have gotten it wrong, because there's nothing in the problem that says that the ants coming to the log ever actually arrived.

[SKL]

If the answer is 14, I would have gotten it wrong, because there's nothing in the problem that says that the ants coming to the log ever actually arrived.

 

Yeah, the writers are not as careful as they should be.  I mentioned the other day another example in my kids' homework:

 

"5 kids were playing in the sand.  3 kids went in.  How many kids were in the sand then?"

 

My question was, what do you mean by "3 kids went in"?  Into the sand?  Or "went in" as in the kids got done playing outside so they went in[side their house]?

 

My dd read it as meaning that 3 of the original 5 kids went into their house, leaving 2 in the sand.  She drew arrows to indicate 3 kids going away from the sandbox.  When I asked "what does 'went in' mean," she realized it could be ambiguous and drew and labeled a door through which the arrows passed.  Not sure how that improved her mathematical prowess, but whatever.

 

Do you think maybe the writers are intentionally ambiguous to force the kids to pick an interpretation?  I hope not.

[butterflymommy]

I haven't been on the forum for a while since all but my youngest (even my lifelong homeschooler teenager) are now in school. But it's the common core stuff that has brought me back :). My children are in Catholic School but this school is on board with CC (and all CS children still need to take the state ELA and math tests). Boy do I wish I'd done my homework because I may have looked for a different CS. I really thought CC sounded like a good thing. Who could argue with higher standards?

 

I can't speak for other states but it's been handled very poorly in NYS. My 2nd & 6th grader don't even have a math textbook because "it's still being developed." The teacher is having to teach off of notes on the state website, and the notes the kids take from that become their textbook. Too bad for the kids who aren't good at taking notes.

 

The math looks suspiciously like fuzzy/ constructivist math to me. It isn't purely fuzzy math but there is definitely some in there. They've also thrown in some Singapore type approaches (or at least it looks like that to me) but without the streamlined, logical, elegant overall approach of Singapore. 

 

Many of the teachers are clearly frustrated with what they're being asked to do. As you mention, much of the material seems random, illogical, even useless, and there is a lot of sloppy question writing on testing & classroom materials. The programs are overly regimented (again, at least in NYS). One veteran teacher of 38 years (!!) is being asked to teach from a script.

 

And my kids are being tested to death. When it's not a real test, it's a practice test (as if a very young child can tell the difference). Many of the daily worksheets for homework look like mini-tests. Thankfully, my kids enjoy tests (one gets anxious but still does well) and tend to do very well on standardized tests, even if they're not a great student in the classroom. But I feel really bad for kids who might be bright but just don't happen to test well on standardized tests.

 

As far as whether CC really has higher standards-- it seems a bit haphazard to me. Some things seem sadly dumbed down while other things are hopeless abstract and complex. This is not a classical education approach, to be sure. The only good thing I can say about this so far is that my kids have read some good literature from the suggested reading list, but I don't like the way they're being asked to work through or analyze the texts-- again, it's definitely not a classical approach to literature.

 

So to answer your question, do I need a different attitude-- personally I hope all this is repealed because the implementation of it has been so unfair to the teachers and students. I knew school wouldn't be perfect but this has been a huge disappointment to me. I'm very concerned about their math (since it does look like fuzzy, or at least semi-fuzzy math) so I'm supplementing with singapore with my younger ones, but my older ones have too much homework for me to add more on top.

 

Yesterday at parent teacher conferences the middle school math teacher was clearly unhappy with CC and said that it expects too much while providing too little. If your child is naturally smart, they will probably be ok. But the average students, and especially the struggling students, are going to be totally disenfranchised by this. Those were her words, not mine, though I'm prone to agree given what I've seen so far.

[Uff Da!]

I can't speak for other states but it's been handled very poorly in NYS. My 2nd & 6th grader don't even have a math textbook because "it's still being developed." The teacher is having to teach off of notes on the state website, and the notes the kids take from that become their textbook. Too bad for the kids who aren't good at taking notes.

 

The math looks suspiciously like fuzzy/ constructivist math to me. It isn't purely fuzzy math but there is definitely some in there. They've also thrown in some Singapore type approaches (or at least it looks like that to me) but without the streamlined, logical, elegant overall approach of Singapore.

 

Many of the teachers are clearly frustrated with what they're being asked to do. As you mention, much of the material seems random, illogical, even useless, and there is a lot of sloppy question writing on testing & classroom materials. The programs are overly regimented (again, at least in NYS). One veteran teacher of 38 years (!!) is being asked to teach from a script.

 

And my kids are being tested to death. When it's not a real test, it's a practice test (as if a very young child can tell the difference). Many of the daily worksheets for homework look like mini-tests. Thankfully, my kids enjoy tests (one gets anxious but still does well) and tend to do very well on standardized tests, even if they're not a great student in the classroom. But I feel really bad for kids who might be bright but just don't happen to test well on standardized tests.

 

.

I have friends in NYS and what you are experiencing there is very different from I am seeing here. Our school hasn't changed for CC but I think they may have already been aligned with CC and so there isn't any upheaval. The facebook posts I am reading from NYS are heartbreaking.

[SKL]

Yes, I do.  One of the features of this type of math program is the discussion afterwards, where the class arrives at the conclusion that there is more than one way to solve the problem, and also note that one's assumptions matter & should be recorded.  Students get very good at this; I"ve met several in K-3 who notice the trivial solution and have a laugh before going on.

 

I always thought it was odd that 'proof' was introduced in Kindy, but 'let X be ...' has yet to be used in my zoned school district. Maybe it's not odd, just cargo cult.

 

OK...it disturbs me that they are encouraging kids to think math is not precise.  So this is what the protestors mean when they say "2+2 may or may not be 5."  I am glad I'm working with my kids at home.

 

All of the examples I gave in this thread (and many others) were in my kids' weekly homework package, which I do not believe is discussed in school.  I don't know whether they also do this stuff in school.  I know I already said this, but what a waste of precious time.  Maybe they are just building up to something more relevant.  I can hope.

[SKL]

They should be building up to good problem solving skills.

 

Is your dds' math hw from Singapore Math or from another publisher?

 

It seems to be from another publisher.  Second Story Window?  www.secondstorywindow.net.

[EKS]

What is the name of the book?  I just looked at Second Story Window and they seemed to have a lot of different things.

[dancingmama]

We have had no problems here in math with regards to CC but they are using Math in Focus.  I am very glad, though, that my son had a couple years of practice with the bars because I'm pretty sure the other kids are struggling with it.  I don't think the teachers have been taught well but also, lets all be honest, teaching the bar method is hard and really should be started in K and worked your way up.  it's a different way of thinking.  And here the poor teacher has who knows how many students she's trying to teach the method too.  

 

I agree with whomever said to get a copy of the teachers guide if at all possible.  It really does help to see the answer to explain to your child what they are getting at.  Luckily for son, as long as his answer is correct, they don't really care how he got there.  

[SKL]

What is the name of the book?  I just looked at Second Story Window and they seemed to have a lot of different things.

 

I don't know, they just keep bringing home pages in their homework packets.  I assume the teacher / school downloaded the 2nd grade CC practice stuff from the internet.

[SKL]

We have had no problems here in math with regards to CC but they are using Math in Focus.  I am very glad, though, that my son had a couple years of practice with the bars because I'm pretty sure the other kids are struggling with it.  I don't think the teachers have been taught well but also, lets all be honest, teaching the bar method is hard and really should be started in K and worked your way up.  it's a different way of thinking.  And here the poor teacher has who knows how many students she's trying to teach the method too.  

 

I agree with whomever said to get a copy of the teachers guide if at all possible.  It really does help to see the answer to explain to your child what they are getting at.  Luckily for son, as long as his answer is correct, they don't really care how he got there.  

 

My kids use Math in Focus as their regular curriculum as well.  Yeah, the bars are not that intuitive for all kids, and I don't think I'm all that good at explaining them.  Not sure the teacher is doing any better.  However, with extra practice at home, my slower kid is getting it.  (I have a pile of Singapore materials at home so we can work in parallel with the school.)

 

[butterflymommy]

I have friends in NYS and what you are experiencing there is very different from I am seeing here. Our school hasn't changed for CC but I think they may have already been aligned with CC and so there isn't any upheaval. The facebook posts I am reading from NYS are heartbreaking.

 

The disadvantaged children are going to be impacted the most, and that is what bothers me. One line of thinking is that the schools will "sacrifice" the current upper grade students, but children starting with these methods in kindy today will be up to speed by the time they're in middle school, which is where algebra and geometry concepts will be spread out to allow more advanced math in high school. I'm not sure how realistic this is because of the math teachers I've spoken to, and some blogs of math teachers I've read, they feel that outside the top 30% of students, many children just are not mentally prepared in terms of brain development for these concepts until they're teenagers. WTM readers and posters tend to have children in that 30% (or at least the vocal ones do) so this might be difficult for us to grasp, how much time some kids need for basic concepts like proportion.

[SKL]

... I'm not sure how realistic this is because of the math teachers I've spoken to, and some blogs of math teachers I've read, they feel that outside the top 30% of students, many children just are not mentally prepared in terms of brain development for these concepts until they're teenagers. WTM readers and posters tend to have children in that 30% (or at least the vocal ones do) so this might be difficult for us to grasp, how much time some kids need for basic concepts like proportion.

 

This is how I feel, too.  I have an average kid and a very bright kid.  This is all great for the bright kid.  The average one has to work very hard, and worse, she doesn't really get the underlying concept half of the time.  She develops the habit of doing the right thing at the right time, but has no idea how to build upon it as things get harder.  I am certain that she's not the only one in her class who is in this situation.  I'm guessing that at least a third of the kids are, despite the fact that in this Lutheran school, there is a lot of redshirting and the IQ distribution is skewed high.  I just don't see what the stinkin' hurry is.  A fair % of adults somehow get through life without having much higher math than what they are asking my 2nd graders to do.  Seriously.  It almost seems like they are trying to weed out the kids who aren't brilliant.

 

I am lucky to have resources (including this forum) to try to help at home.  I make my kid go back over the 1st grade level practice work and problem solving examples, until I feel it has clicked.  Thankfully she is cooperative about it.  She is still a little behind, and I think she will always have to do extra work to have any hope of keeping up with the instruction.  I'm not sure what's going to happen to the other kids whose parents don't know what to do about this issue.  I mean, Miss A is in Title I tutoring, but a half hour a week with the slowest 6 kids in the class is definitely not going to cut it.

[SKL]

The way my NY district does it is to make math double period in middle and high school. That gives the disadvantaged more practice time and the opportunity to fill in the gaps.

 

The problem everyone sees is that, with Dec cutoff, disadvantaged four year olds struggle mightily in Kindy and even with RtI, there is just not enough time in the day for the average to below average students to make up for the neglect from birth to preK.The unstated wish is to go back to grouping by instructional need, continuing summer school for the disadvantaged, so they can catch up.

 

I would just point out that being young with an average IQ (or below) does not indicate neglect.  Such a child can have a very rich pre-school experience and still be average and young once they arrive at school.

[Tarreymere]

I'm going to have to ask my son tonight. Since it doesn't even snow here, *I* didn't know that snowmen arms were made out of sticks! Does Frosty have stick arms? I know about the carrot nose and the top hat. Maybe coal eyes? But I don't see arms when I think of him.I wonder what my 6 year old will say.

 

 

I live in Pennsylvania, and my kids make snowmen with no arms. Often the snowmen will have stick noses, because we would never think of wasting a carrot on a snowman. No one in the area has a top hat, to my knowledge, and I've never seen one on an actual snowman. Our snowmen do not have hats. Further, my kids do not watch network television or cartoons so they are not familiar with what I recognize in your description as the Frosty the Snowman from a tv show I watched as a child many decades ago. My kids would consider such thing as an animated snowman named Frosty with stick arms to be very strange and not at all related to the snowmen they like to create in the winter. I think whoever made up that particular assignment is making some extremely narrow cultural assumptions. However, my review of the Common Core standards did not reveal any standards related to knowledge of snowmen, so it is likely that this is indeed a problem with the curriculum itself being poorly written and not the Common Core standards. 

 

 

I have two kids in a public high school this year and the school is trying to implement Common Core. My daughter is annoyed, because she isn't happy to have to actually think about anything and would rather be told what to parrot back, and my son is totally oblivious. I'm not sure what I think yet. 

[City Mouse]

To me, the CCSS don't sound much different than what the school district was doing where we used to live in Texas. Something like 7-8 years ago, the district was requiring students to explain how the found answers in math.

 

Cultural bias in testing is nothing new. My SIL tells a story about when her DS (now late 20s) was in kinder or first grade and had one of those worksheets where he had to circle pictures that had a certain sound. The teacher thought there was something wrong with him because of the thing she got wrong. One of the pictures that he was supposed to circle was a picture of an iron. My SIL was of the '60s-'70s hippies. They did not have an iron in the house and the kid had ever seen one before, so there was no way hecouldchoose the correct answer.

[SKL]

They did not have an iron in the house and the kid had ever seen one before, so there was no way hecouldchoose the correct answer.

 

When my kids were in 1st grade, even Miss E was stumped by a "newspaper" picture.  LOL.  Miss A also got dinged for thinking a "nurse" was actually a "doctor."  Shame, don't you know only men can be doctors?  Funny thing, we never see nurses any more.  They're always "assistants" at the doctors' offices.  "Assistant" doesn't start with "n."  LOL.

 

Looking forward to the day when my kids stop having to do phonics worksheets!  I mean really, you'd think once they were reading chapter books that would not be necessary.

 

[SKL]

In this area of the nation, being disadvantaged and young means that the odds of being neglected educationally at home are quite high. That's just how the population is characterized right now. There are no rich pre-school experiences available at all -- the economy has closed all the church based preschools and the state gov't is not funding public preK 100%.  An average young nonneglected child will do fine - if they have support at home to do the necessary practice work which is sent home as homework -- because they aren't starting three years behind grade level and they have adequate food and housing.  Apologies for not making it clearer that I was referring specifically to my area.

 

I might have misread as I did not realize you were only talking about disadvantaged four-year-olds.  Sorry to be picky - I might be a little defensive ;) .

[MistyMountain]

Cultural bias in testing is nothing new. My SIL tells a story about when her DS (now late 20s) was in kinder or first grade and had one of those worksheets where he had to circle pictures that had a certain sound. The teacher thought there was something wrong with him because of the thing she got wrong. One of the pictures that he was supposed to circle was a picture of an iron. My SIL was of the '60s-'70s hippies. They did not have an iron in the house and the kid had ever seen one before, so there was no way hecouldchoose the correct answer.

My dd gets those worksheets and gets things wrong on them all the time for things like that. One was for the th sound and had a picture of a thimble. We don't have those in the house and I never mentioned one before. We don't even have those thimbalina stories.Or there will be a picture of a baby bear and she was thinking bear instead of cub.

[MistyMountain]

Looking forward to the day when my kids stop having to do phonics worksheets!  I mean really, you'd think once they were reading chapter books that would not be necessary.

Me too. My oldest is reading really well for her age and can read any book she could possibly comprehend including chapter books unless it has small text and she gets dinged on these stupid worksheets because she mistakes a lamb for a sheep.

[SKL]

My dd gets those worksheets and gets things wrong on them all the time for things like that. One was for the th sound and had a picture of a thimble. We don't have those in the house and I never mentioned one before. We don't even have those thimbalina stories.Or there will be a picture of a baby bear and she was thinking bear instead of cub.

 

I may or may not have bought my kids a sewing kit *just* so they would not be ignorant of needle, pincushion, thimble, etc. when presented with silly tasks like that.

[ElizaG]

I think it's okay to have everyday questions that assume more-or-less standard American cultural knowledge, even if it's not something that's done in every region or family.  The child is going to run into these things sooner or later anyway, in literature, national media, etc.   It's not as if they're talking about a Slovenian potato dish, or asking the name of part of the harness for a horse and buggy. 

 

It used to be that these questions were only held to be a problem when they were included on tests, so that the child was being ranked (and possibly tracked) based on something he or she hadn't had the chance to learn.   But some of the posts above (e.g., the iron and snowman examples) seem to be talking about "worksheets" and "testing" as if they're synonymous.   I thought that the traditional idea was that everyday worksheets are part of learning, not part of testing.  

 

Is this still the case?  Or is everything now a testing situation? :huh:

[SKL]

It used to be that these questions were only held to be a problem when they were included on tests, so that the child was being ranked (and possibly tracked) based on something he or she hadn't had the chance to learn.   But some of the posts above (e.g., the iron and snowman examples) seem to be talking about "worksheets" and "testing" as if they're synonymous.   I thought that the traditional idea was that everyday worksheets are part of learning, not part of testing.  

 

Is this still the case?  Or is everything now a testing situation? :huh:

 

Well, they are going on the kids' grades, and I'm getting notes from the teacher when they aren't doing the test prep well enough.  Also, I don't get the impression any teaching of these things occurs prior to the assessment of knowledge.  If it's test prep, I'm going to assume that there is some resemblance to the test.  After my kid bombed the "word relationship" paper about winter stuff, the teacher told me that my kid should practice more as these were going to be "on the tests" (meaning the standardized tests).

 

As an aside, I just remembered an example that a friend brought to my attention a couple of weeks ago.  A KG worksheet teaching soft "c" included "cigarette" as one of the pictures.  The parent did complain to the school about that one.

 

Isn't there some way to teach/assess phonics that does not require specific cultural knowledge?

[Leav97]

OK...it disturbs me that they are encouraging kids to think math is not precise.  So this is what the protestors mean when they say "2+2 may or may not be 5."  I am glad I'm working with my kids at home.

 

All of the examples I gave in this thread (and many others) were in my kids' weekly homework package, which I do not believe is discussed in school.  I don't know whether they also do this stuff in school.  I know I already said this, but what a waste of precious time.  Maybe they are just building up to something more relevant.  I can hope.

 

It's not that math isn't precise.  It's that there are multiple ways of solving a problem.  Take your example.  If the class just finished serial addition and is starting multiplication it can be a really helpful problem.  You'll have some kids that will count 1-20 to find the answer, some that will add 5+5+5+5=20, and some that multiply 4x5=20.  You no know where each of the kids are in there understanding of multiplication.  If in a classroom of 30 students 25 do serial addition, 3 do multiplication and 2 are still counting, you have 2 kids that aren't appling or don't understand the last concept, 25 that are doing a good job with the last concept, and 3 that are already applying the current concept.

 

 It's not about getting in the head of the test writer it's about getting in the head of the student.  If the question is written well and given at the correct point in the curriculum. 

[Word Nerd]

However, the Common core is one step forward for teachers. Teachers are now given the freedom to design their own courses and choose their own reading lists. This is a big change from the one-size-fits-all approach of the past and not too much different from homeschooling.

 

I'm not sure many teachers would agree. I think it's actually more of a one-size-fits-all approach than ever before and am not sure where you're getting the impression that teachers can design their own courses. State standards didn't dictate the specific courses of study, textbooks, etc. that schools had to use either, so in that regard, not much has changed.

[Word Nerd]

I think that what people are having issues with is not the Common Core per se, but the instructional materials that claim to be aligned with it. 

 

 

 

:iagree:

 

I understand the CC standards that certain problems in Go Math (which our school just started using this year) are ostensibly addressing. I just question whether the materials actually do what they're purported to do. Does asking an intentionally vague, strangely worded question truly encourage critical thinking—or is it being ambiguous for the sake of being ambiguous?

[SKL]

Yeah, I was looking at another paper my kids brought home.  This was a reading assessment.  One of the questions had a picture the kids were supposed to look at and then answer a question based on the picture.  The picture (a b&w line drawing) had 7 kids playing basketball, of which 2 were wearing light vests and 5 dark vests.  The question was, how many players are on a basketball team?

 

Now, keep in mind that this is for young 2nd graders. 

 

I look at the picture and think, obviously there are some kids in the game who are not shown in the picture, assuming the teams on both sides have the same number of players.  Is it logical to assume that ALL of the members of EITHER team are in the picture?  Not really.  And not all kids would pick up on the light / dark vests, especially if they've never seen or used such equipment.

 

Now if they have experience with basketball - a parent who watches it on TV, takes them to games, enrolls them in kiddy basketball classes - or if they have read books about basketball - then chances are, they know the answer without looking at the picture.  But that doesn't prove anything about reading comprehension, does it?

 

I remember that when I was that age, I hated reading comprehension classwork.  And I was a very good reader.  I just wasn't very good at reading the minds of whoever writes these materials.  And I was (and still am) bothered by the idea that reading *their* mind is more important than using my own imagination to live a story.  I always felt that a great children's author would prefer for the kids to read with imagination and form their own pictures rather than search among and between the lines for *the* correct interpretation.

[Word Nerd]

My DD's basketball team has 13 players; only five of them can be playing at a time, but there can be more than five players on a team. Maybe that would be an acceptable answer, though, as it depends on what angle you approach the question from? I think it's a silly exercise, as students don't know just from looking at the picture that the full number for one of the teams is shown.

[ondreeuh]

Yeah, I was looking at another paper my kids brought home.  This was a reading assessment.  One of the questions had a picture the kids were supposed to look at and then answer a question based on the picture.  The picture (a b&w line drawing) had 7 kids playing basketball, of which 2 were wearing light vests and 5 dark vests.  The question was, how many players are on a basketball team?

 

Oh my gosh. I wonder if the teacher thinks it's dumb too, or if she thinks it's fine?

[SKL]

My DD's basketball team has 13 players; only five of them can be playing at a time, but there can be more than five players on a team. Maybe that would be an acceptable answer, though, as it depends on what angle you approach the question from? I think it's a silly exercise, as students don't know just from looking at the picture that the full number for one of the teams is shown.

 

I should have noted that this was a fill-in-the-bubble multiple choice question.  So, no credit for explaining why your answer might be different from whatever they intend it to be.

[SKL]

Oh, I just noticed there was small print under the picture of the basketball game.  The small print (smaller than any other print on the 14-page assessment other than the stuff in the margins) gives the answer they want.  However, the instructions say to use the picture to answer the question.  I've looked at that page at least 5 times and never even noticed the small print under the picture.  Maybe because small print under a picture is usually copyright info or something.

 

One of my kids guessed 7, the other said 5.  I'm guessing the one who said 7 (who has vision problems) didn't notice the small print.

 

Anyway, it just seems stupid to me.  The info wasn't in the picture, it was in the tiny caption under the picture.  Why would they say "use the picture to answer the question"?  It really does seem like they are trying to trick kids, or maybe they just aren't very smart.  Either way, I don't see how this sort of thing promotes an educated society.