Menu
Jump to content

What's with the ads?

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Literary Mom

Does anyone else think Classical Conversations is neither?

Recommended Posts

Core Knowledge is really designed for public schools. Kids in very enriched environments usually already cover CK. Hirsch's point was that we owe it to kids who aren't from an enriched environment to make sure that they are exposed to a common body of knowledge. It can be easy to forget that there are kids who have never heard fairy tales and who don't get dragged off to see mummies at museums. The ideal was to have a network of schools that covered similar topics at similar times, because kids (disproportionately poor) can be put at a huge disadvantage and get a shoddy, patchwork education as a result of multiple moves in elementary school.

 

It was a reaction against a trend to make everything skills-based and reflective of a child's life at home.

 

Yes. I had a really hard time understanding this approach until I realized how little time was spent on Social Studies and Science in public schools. Somebody linked a Willingham you tube video on this once that helped me understand. IIRC, 4th graders spend 3% of their school time on SS and 4% on science. 

 

I don't have strong feelings either way about CK, but it was helpful for me to understand what was driving Hirsch's philosophy. Giving kids a common body of knowledge seems to be a worthy goal. Of course, for many it isn't so much a goal as a given. I think that makes the CK approach difficult for some people to understand - at least it did for me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting to read that some people do connect the idea of a common pool of information (aka 'Core Knowledge' which I had not heard until this thread) with the CC rote memorization    Personally I still think what I read in the Willingham book -incl. the idea of a pool of background knowledge is important - is a lot closer to STOW storytelling than rote memorization.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting to read that some people do connect the idea of a common pool of information (aka 'Core Knowledge' which I had not heard until this thread) with the CC rote memorization    Personally I still think what I read in the Willingham book -incl. the idea of a pool of background knowledge is important - is a lot closer to STOW storytelling than rote memorization.  

 

This.  The whole time I was reading Mrs. Twain's CK post, I kept thinking that my agreeing with Willingham explains why I don't agree with CC Foundations.  When we were in CC, the tutor would present a name to memorize with no background information.  It was actually explained to us that you shouldn't present the material at home before coming to CC.  The tutor would present it, and you as the parent would follow up at home.  So they were technically expected to memorize with no background information.  (I realize a parent could read related material the week before, but in my opinion, it was too many topics to cover.  There would be no time for anything else.)

 

One of our tutors actually said the words, "You don't have to understand it.  You just need to memorize it. You'll use it later."  I watched the effect it had on my girls' learning.  Never before had they memorized something they didn't understand.  We always learned all of the background first and then memorized some key facts afterward.  I literally saw a little light go out of them throughout the year.  Before joining CC, we read and discussed and made connections, and then memorized and reviewed.  At CC, they parroted straight facts that had nothing to do with what they were learning at the time or facts that maybe they would learn the background to later.

 

It's baffling to me how differently people can see things.  For me, the explanation of CK made my disagreement with CC even clearer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I teach background information for all of the memory work in CC.  However, some of it we have already covered since my kids are older.  It takes us one afternoon per week. Maybe it helps if you have older kids rather than little ones attending CC.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This.  The whole time I was reading Mrs. Twain's CK post, I kept thinking that my agreeing with Willingham explains why I don't agree with CC Foundations.  When we were in CC, the tutor would present a name to memorize with no background information.  It was actually explained to us that you shouldn't present the material at home before coming to CC.  The tutor would present it, and you as the parent would follow up at home.  So they were technically expected to memorize with no background information.  (I realize a parent could read related material the week before, but in my opinion, it was too many topics to cover.  There would be no time for anything else.)

 

One of our tutors actually said the words, "You don't have to understand it.  You just need to memorize it. You'll use it later."  I watched the effect it had on my girls' learning.  Never before had they memorized something they didn't understand.  We always learned all of the background first and then memorized some key facts afterward.  I literally saw a little light go out of them throughout the year.  Before joining CC, we read and discussed and made connections, and then memorized and reviewed.  At CC, they parroted straight facts that had nothing to do with what they were learning at the time or facts that maybe they would learn the background to later.

 

It's baffling to me how differently people can see things.  For me, the explanation of CK made my disagreement with CC even clearer.

 

Exactly. Today (we've got five weeks left) I was sitting in class thinking how the children are so expressive and energetic, and how bizarre it is to channel it in this automaton like way. I was almost wishing I had spent the year prepping them the previous week, but as you said, it would have taken up all our time, so we would have had to trade in our curriculum (mostly WTM), which would shortchange them even more than tacking on this (mostly) mindless memorization. My oldest, for the most part, already has the background from what we've done at home (in grades 1-5, prior to CC), my middle child has some of it, but my youngest has even said to me, "I don't know what any of it means."

 

Then again, in class only one hour is spent on memory work - half hour to introduce it and a half hour at the end to review it through games. I do nothing outside class except post the memory work to our trifold board. They listen to the CD on their own (usually during rest time) if they want to. The only thing I've had to do is help my youngest with presentations, which isn't very time consuming. 

 

Still...to attach it to a literary metaphor - no matter how many mattresses I stack up, I can always still feel the pea on the bottom, so I can never get comfortable. It reminds of when I met my husband and he was involved with a multi-level marketing program. Despite it going against every fiber of my being, I managed to convince myself it could actually be profitable and good, but deep down, I couldn't get rid of the nagging feeling that it was all wrong. I was so relieved when shortly after we got married, he realized it wasn't for us. 

 

Apart from the memory work...my children's reasons for wanting to be part of CC are to be with other kids, sing songs and do hand motions (really only my middle child), play games (to test their memorization), and do presentations. They also sometimes enjoy the science and fine arts activities. But as others have pointed out, if you take away the memory work component, you have your run-of-the-mill homeschool co-op with a hefty price tag. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But as others have pointed out, if you take away the memory work component, you have your run-of-the-mill homeschool co-op with a hefty price tag. 

 

 

Pretty good description of what I've seen...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pretty good description of what I've seen...

 

Don't forget the value of those weekly presentations each dc gives (most homeschool co-ops don't do this).

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also, don't forget Essentials if your dc is in grades 4-6.  My dd has really thrived with Essentials this year.  Yes, she has happily copied and has memorized most of Grammar Charts A-Q.  And IEW really works well in a classroom-type setting, so her writing skills have greatly improved this year (particularly in the fact that I don't have any more crying or moping sessions when it comes time for writing assignments at home).  Currently, she is actively engaged in doing a research report on Joan of Arc ON HER OWN, and doing it contentedly, which is amazing to me.

 

I have a MA in linguistics and I love the Essentials model for studying grammar (FWIW).  In fact, I taught Grammatical Analysis at a college campus for 5 semesters as a TA in my younger days, and I just really enjoy the Essentials approach.  The only part I don't quite agree with is how they teach the IO (indirect object).  'Give me the book' vs 'Give the book to me' in Essentials class treats only the 'me' in the first example to be an IO, while in the 2nd example 'to me' is a prepositional phrase.  Oh well, I can live with that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This thread made a conversation I had tonight so difficult - LOL!  A relatively new homeschooler was gushing about CC.  Before this thread, I really hadn't heard anything about it so I was glad I had a bit of knowledge before I met her.  One thing that really stood out to me.  She said, "It's so cool.  My kids know all these things . . . like Columbus sailed in 1492" (she finished the sentence they had memorized) then added, "They don't know anything else about Columbus because we aren't supposed to read or learn anything else until the next time through the cycle".  Is this really true?   She was very enthusiastic about all the things that her kids 'knew' and how impressive it was and how she purposely doesn't expand on their knowledge beyond these sentences.

 

She is borrowing my WTM today :)  When I mentioned that WTM is my inspiration but I've departed from it in order to have pre-scheduled curriculum because of my large family, she asked if she could read it.  It will be interesting to hear her reaction.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, I just have to speak up here. There is so much I could say about this, this-- system? Its been disturbing me for years. But I will just limit it to two critiques that haven't really been brought up:
 
1) To say a tutor is not a teacher is an abuse of words--it's to distort the meaning of a very good and useful term. One of the few words that had a good solid and long established meaning. This is anathema to a classical educator!
2) This is pure speculation, but it seems obvious to me that the real reason parents are required to sit in the back of the room is that this will keep the cost of the insurance way down. One of the biggest draws for moms wanting to start this kind of thing is that cc will provide the insurance the churches require of a group requesting the use of rooms. When young children are left off somewhere without their parents it opens up a whole new level of liability. The founders of CC are nothing if they aren't brilliant marketers and business people.
 
The reason that I've been trying to keep my mouth shut is that my mother drilled into me: "if you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything!"  But you know what....I do have something nice to say, and that is this:
The people I know who work in a cc group (and many of them are great friends) are some of the most wonderful people I know!  So many of them did not know what they were getting into, and they have worked very hard to make the best of this system that they are stuck with. When we first moved into the heart of CC country in 2007 I began to do my summer mom's Latin workshops and they were filling them up! These ladies knew that the parents needed them to be real "tutors" and not just cheerleaders. Some of them said, "We thought that this was the kind of training CC was going to give us!"
 
Our critiques of CC's system are not against the ladies working in that system, just as our critiques of the public school system were not an attack on the teachers caught up in it. There are wonderful tutors and moms involved in CC, and because they will go by their instincts and do what is needed to make their group work, then the families can benefit greatly by the camaraderie and fellowship--but please people start your own study group!--relish the freedom that homeschooling gives us to use our minds and be creative.

Beth in Mint Hill

Founder of Collegium Study Center in Colorado
and
www.HarveyCenter.org

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This thread made a conversation I had tonight so difficult - LOL!  A relatively new homeschooler was gushing about CC.  Before this thread, I really hadn't heard anything about it so I was glad I had a bit of knowledge before I met her.  One thing that really stood out to me.  She said, "It's so cool.  My kids know all these things . . . like Columbus sailed in 1492" (she finished the sentence they had memorized) then added, "They don't know anything else about Columbus because we aren't supposed to read or learn anything else until the next time through the cycle".  Is this really true?   She was very enthusiastic about all the things that her kids 'knew' and how impressive it was and how she purposely doesn't expand on their knowledge beyond these sentences.

 

She is borrowing my WTM today :)  When I mentioned that WTM is my inspiration but I've departed from it in order to have pre-scheduled curriculum because of my large family, she asked if she could read it.  It will be interesting to hear her reaction.

 

Uggh.  I hope the novice homeschooler referenced misunderstood the bolded parts.  Even though I firmly believe that for some students, like mine, context is not required and all the little parts will come together as a whole eventually, I also recognize that some students really need the context to make it stick.  The decision on whether or not to add context at home ought to be made on an individual student/family basis.  I really hope that CC is not discouraging families that want to add context from doing so. I cannot recall exactly what I have heard over the years, probably because I didn't find context necessary at the time for us, so I wasn't paying close attention to how others would perceive what was said.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes! But how?!?! Help! I'm new to homeschooling and outside-the-box creativity isn't exactly my fortè. But the "dialectic discussion" portion of Challenge is what I'm grieved the most by losing when we leave CC. The opportunity to have the group of peers engage in discussion on common content (not just one co-op class) to facilitate being able to relate subjects to one another.

 

but please people start your own study group!--relish the freedom that homeschooling gives us to use our minds and be creative.

 

Beth in Mint Hill

 

Founder of Collegium Study Center in Colorado

and

www.HarveyCenter.org

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Uggh.  I hope the novice homeschooler referenced misunderstood the bolded parts.  Even though I firmly believe that for some students, like mine, context is not required and all the little parts will come together as a whole eventually, I also recognize that some students really need the context to make it stick.  The decision on whether or not to add context at home ought to be made on an individual student/family basis.  I really hope that CC is not discouraging families that want to add context from doing so. I cannot recall exactly what I have heard over the years, probably because I didn't find context necessary at the time for us, so I wasn't paying close attention to how others would perceive what was said.

 

 

That sounds totally wrong to me, but I am just a newbie to CC.  What I did hear, though, is that if you are on week 5, for example, you should not jump ahead and memorize the history sentence for week 6...just wait until class-time during week 6 to learn that history sentence.  But then it is fine (and even encouraged, I thought) to add additional context at home for the material learned during week 6.  Also, you are encouraged to review any material you have memorized up until that point.  And you can merrily do your history studies at home in any order you want, providing as much context and when as you want, as long as you are not trying to memorize history sentences ahead of time.  Let the tutor be the one to introduce the new material to be memorized for each week.

 

For example, we chose to study Mystery of History II this year since it focuses on the Middle Ages and so does Cycle 2 of CC.  I found it too difficult to try and line up exacly when we studied Charlemagne in both, but figured the one would reinforce and provide context to the other, especially since the IEW done during Essentials in Cycle 2 is also covering the Middle Ages.

 

Hope that helps,

Brenda

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That sounds totally wrong to me, but I am just a newbie to CC.  What I did hear, though, is that if you are on week 5, for example, you should not jump ahead and memorize the history sentence for week 6...just wait until class-time during week 6 to learn that history sentence.  But then it is fine (and even encouraged, I thought) to add additional context at home for the material learned during week 6.  Also, you are encouraged to review any material you have memorized up until that point.  And you can merrily do your history studies at home in any order you want, providing as much context and when as you want, as long as you are not trying to memorize history sentences ahead of time.  Let the tutor be the one to introduce the new material to be memorized for each week.

 

For example, we chose to study Mystery of History II this year since it focuses on the Middle Ages and so does Cycle 2 of CC.  I found it too difficult to try and line up exacly when we studied Charlemagne in both, but figured the one would reinforce and provide context to the other, especially since the IEW done during Essentials in Cycle 2 is also covering the Middle Ages.

 

Hope that helps,

Brenda

 

 

Yes, I hope this is what most are hearing from CC. Although I make no effort to provide background information for each week's memory work or to try to line up our curriculum with CC, I do choose history and science curriculum for the year that roughly correlates to the current cycle and connect the dots as they come along. And, of course, the CC grammar memory work has been very helpful as worked through R&S English lessons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes! But how?!?! Help! I'm new to homeschooling and outside-the-box creativity isn't exactly my fortè. But the "dialectic discussion" portion of Challenge is what I'm grieved the most by losing when we leave CC. The opportunity to have the group of peers engage in discussion on common content (not just one co-op class) to facilitate being able to relate subjects to one another.

 

 

Dear Dauphin, This is a subject that is near and dear to my heart! I remember a discussion here on the board a few years ago (2-3 yrs ago?) about this very subject! It inspired me to get something going again. I had just been talking with a couple of local friends about how hard it was for their teenagers to find anyone to talk with and study with. This, along with our discussion here, was the motivation for me to start our new online center and the "Conversatio."

 

Way back in 2000 (living in Colorado then) we started our "in the flesh" Collegium Study Center--it was for the same purpose you state here:

 

"The opportunity to have the group of peers engage in discussion on common content ...."

 

I think that one of the keys to having a successful group is to have a clear vision of the purpose, and then organize a short term group which will enable you to have discussions with other parents about that vision. If you find like-minded people, make it a "club" or a "study center." It is essential to have a board (could be just 2-3) of like-minded people to keep from having the problems of a strong-willed person coming in and derailing it. ... Its a little bit or work, but doesn't have to be too formalized...

 

Perhaps we should start a new thread for this issue.....I would love to discuss this more! This weekend I've got a house full of company, but perhaps I can steal away early like this, or when everyone's out for golf... ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It seemed to me, when I was at the CC conference, that the really important part of CC was the upper-level classes where the students could, actually, discuss things with each other and a knowledgeable teacher.

 

CC started, I learned, with the upper classes. The upper classes is where the main purpose is. The lower classes were added on, I'm figuring, as a "catch" for younger siblings and a place where they could prep some of the "core content" expected of the older classes.

 

I think this may be where the confusion about "tutors" comes in. As CC was originally conceived, I think the teacher was conceived as a tutor in the sense of someone facilitating class discussion.

 

So, really, what value I see in CC is in it's high school program. But then so many who are involved in it talk about pulling their kids out by middle school, and it seems like lots of CC communities have problems with getting enough students to do the upper levels. So I don't know what exactly is going on there, but it seems that CC has lost its purpose along the way somehow.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dear Dauphin, This is a subject that is near and dear to my heart! I remember a discussion here on the board a few years ago (2-3 yrs ago?) about this very subject! It inspired me to get something going again. I had just been talking with a couple of local friends about how hard it was for their teenagers to find anyone to talk with and study with. This, along with our discussion here, was the motivation for me to start our new online center and the "Conversatio."

 

Way back in 2000 (living in Colorado then) we started our "in the flesh" Collegium Study Center--it was for the same purpose you state here:

 

"The opportunity to have the group of peers engage in discussion on common content ...."

 

I think that one of the keys to having a successful group is to have a clear vision of the purpose, and then organize a short term group which will enable you to have discussions with other parents about that vision. If you find like-minded people, make it a "club" or a "study center." It is essential to have a board (could be just 2-3) of like-minded people to keep from having the problems of a strong-willed person coming in and derailing it. ... Its a little bit or work, but doesn't have to be too formalized...

 

Perhaps we should start a new thread for this issue.....I would love to discuss this more! This weekend I've got a house full of company, but perhaps I can steal away early like this, or when everyone's out for golf... ;)

 

 

<3 That would be AWESOME, maybe we should! Is this section best or would it be better in middle/logic, or high school/up (we are looking at 6th grade but DD is doing some HS level work)

 

It seemed to me, when I was at the CC conference, that the really important part of CC was the upper-level classes where the students could, actually, discuss things with each other and a knowledgeable teacher.

 

CC started, I learned, with the upper classes. The upper classes is where the main purpose is. The lower classes were added on, I'm figuring, as a "catch" for younger siblings and a place where they could prep some of the "core content" expected of the older classes.

 

I think this may be where the confusion about "tutors" comes in. As CC was originally conceived, I think the teacher was conceived as a tutor in the sense of someone facilitating class discussion.

 

So, really, what value I see in CC is in it's high school program. But then so many who are involved in it talk about pulling their kids out by middle school, and it seems like lots of CC communities have problems with getting enough students to do the upper levels. So I don't know what exactly is going on there, but it seems that CC has lost its purpose along the way somehow.

 

Yes, I heard several times and agreed that the Challenge programs would seem to be the "crown jewel" of CC (and/or you could similarly say that late dialectic/rhetoric stages are the "crown jewel" of classical education - where you begin to more tangibly see the end product of what you have been building; kind of like when they're building a house and it's been concrete/framing for forever, and then it begins to take shape as they put up drywall/exterior, and it starts.to.look.like.a.house, and a beautiful, well-made one at that (all the more so because you know the integrity and quality of the interior structure)? Ooh. I sound like a fan of classical education, don't I. Heeeheeehee. ("She's done drunk the Kool-Aid, people!" hahah)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Forgive me, I have no direct experience with CC, but the discussion is interesting nonetheless. The idea of rote memorization without context was something that I had a distaste for and intuitively didn't feel was good for my young children when I first started reading neo-classical interpretations of classical education. Thanks to this board, I have expanded my reading list to include other ideas on classical education. I am reading Caldecott's Beauty in the Word (someone else mentioned this book in this or another thread) and I came across a quote which is relevant to this discussion and the idea of memorizing out of context:

 

"... the restoration of Grammar as one of the three elements of a restored Trivium must include not only the revival of memory and the discipline of learning by heart (enlarging the heart in the process ), but the cultivation of imagination and a poetic or musical vision of the interconnectedness of all things."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It seemed to me, when I was at the CC conference, that the really important part of CC was the upper-level classes where the students could, actually, discuss things with each other and a knowledgeable teacher.

 

CC started, I learned, with the upper classes. The upper classes is where the main purpose is. The lower classes were added on, I'm figuring, as a "catch" for younger siblings and a place where they could prep some of the "core content" expected of the older classes.

 

I think this may be where the confusion about "tutors" comes in. As CC was originally conceived, I think the teacher was conceived as a tutor in the sense of someone facilitating class discussion.

 

So, really, what value I see in CC is in it's high school program. But then so many who are involved in it talk about pulling their kids out by middle school, and it seems like lots of CC communities have problems with getting enough students to do the upper levels. So I don't know what exactly is going on there, but it seems that CC has lost its purpose along the way somehow.

 

I don't know if they've have lost their sense of purpose or not, but it seems to me that they have elevated ideology (their own) over quality.  I believe Challenge directors are required to homeschool their own dc and to have them in the appropriate level of CC and are encouraged or required to teach all six subjects.  This means that I have seen an experienced, knowledgeable, highly regarded director asked not to return because 1 or more of her Challenge age dc choose a b&m school (for the sports). There doesn't seem to be any requirements regarding knowledge or experience with the subject matter because the director is supposed to model learning along aside the student and their parents.  However a mom trying to keep up with an entire high school course load, while homeschooling her own children and managing her household etc seems like a recipe for burn out.  At our site the average experience, knowledge and overall quality of the Challenge program has suffered as a result. 

 

Also their minimum age requirements and all or nothing requirement for Challenge A, B & I have severely limited our ability to use their program in the way that best fits our situation to the point where the cost (time, money, loss of freedom, etc.) outweighs the benefits.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know if they've have lost their sense of purpose or not, but it seems to me that they have elevated ideology (their own) over quality.  I believe Challenge directors are required to homeschool their own dc and to have them in the appropriate level of CC and are encouraged or required to teach all six subjects.  This means that I have seen an experienced, knowledgeable, highly regarded director asked not to return because 1 or more of her Challenge age dc choose a b&m school (for the sports). There doesn't seem to be any requirements regarding knowledge or experience with the subject matter because the director is supposed to model learning along aside the student and their parents.  However a mom trying to keep up with an entire high school course load, while homeschooling her own children and managing her household etc seems like a recipe for burn out.  At our site the average experience, knowledge and overall quality of the Challenge program has suffered as a result. 

 

Also their minimum age requirements and all or nothing requirement for Challenge A, B & I have severely limited our ability to use their program in the way that best fits our situation to the point where the cost (time, money, loss of freedom, etc.) outweighs the benefits.

 

FWIW -- It wasn't always this strict, and some were grandfathered in who didn't meet these qualifications.  We had one director whose teen was enrolled elsewhere, and another who never homeschooled but has been very involved with the homeschool community in other capacities.  Both were excellent BTW, and have been doing it for years now.  Challenge wasn't the best choice for one of mine, so we are out for the foreseeable future.  Technically I am over-qualified in some ways, but having a teen elsewhere is the sticking point.

 

That's how it is now though.  I'm sure that they had problems with "do as I say not as I do" situations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

FWIW -- It wasn't always this strict, and some were grandfathered in who didn't meet these qualifications.  We had one director whose teen was enrolled elsewhere, and another who never homeschooled but has been very involved with the homeschool community in other capacities.  Both were excellent BTW, and have been doing it for years now.  Challenge wasn't the best choice for one of mine, so we are out for the foreseeable future.  Technically I am over-qualified in some ways, but having a teen elsewhere is the sticking point.

 

That's how it is now though.  I'm sure that they had problems with "do as I say not as I do" situations.

 

I suppose they did.  Sadly, their heavy-handed enforcement of their rules has caused a noticeable drop in quality and academic rigor at our site.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is a lot of excellent discussion in this post- I wish I would have seen it sooner!  I want to add in my two cents!   We've been a part of CC for 5 years.   We started when why was oldest was 5 years old.  She is now 9 and is in her 2nd year of Essentials.  I'm also tutoring Essentials this year.   We've been blessed with an AMAZING director and wonderful tutors.  Our community is very close and like an extended family- not all communities are blessed with that.  I've loved our last 5 years in CC but feel it is because of our director and other families- a blessing I know not everyone has!  I have not always agreed with everything about CC (4 yrs sitting in class!!!!) but felt we got enough benefits out of it to justify the time and expense.

 

The point of CC is Challenge.  That is where the real discussions happen.  Foundations and Essentials were created as a way to prepare students for Challenge.  

Another big point is the tutors.  CC stresses that the tutors are there to model learning and it is the parents job to teach.  How each family does that is up to them.  It is also stressed that the tutors do not have all of the answers.  We hit that a lot in my Essentials class- I am not a grammar expert!  I'm learning alongside the kids.  That opens up a lot of discussions in Essentials between the parents, students and myself.  I feel we have learned so much more this year because of those discussions and because there is so much I don't know.  Again, I can see how one's experience could be changed based on who your tutor was!

 

 

Having said all of this, we are walking away from CC- a long story with lots of drama.  The bullet points are I don't like the direction CC is taking as a company.  It is becoming two big for its britches and that is not why I joined.  They are forcing our director to step down because she will not be putting one of her children in Challenge.   I also feel that they have become to profit oriented.  Yes, they are a company and should make money, however that seems to be driving all of their decisions. When we first started, I felt they were more interested in what was best for their families.  As time has gone on, I don't feel that way anymore.  Maybe we were cushioned to that feeling due to our director and I had blinders on since we had such an amazing campus?

 

Like any program, there is good and there is bad.  Each family needs to research it and decide if it is a good for them! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes! But how?!?! Help! I'm new to homeschooling and outside-the-box creativity isn't exactly my fortè. But the "dialectic discussion" portion of Challenge is what I'm grieved the most by losing when we leave CC. The opportunity to have the group of peers engage in discussion on common content (not just one co-op class) to facilitate being able to relate subjects to one another.

 

 

Ok, lets start a new thread on this! 

:thumbup:

Seems like it would be appropriate here at the general ed board, wouldn't it? 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/506693-starting-study-centers/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So this thread keeps popping up!!! :) I started CC in our area, and it's still going strong.... I think the leadership stinks :( I wouldn't put my child back in the program, because of disagreements with it... but... even though the memory work isn't perfect.... We listen to it at home. Do I wish they had used Master Reviewers of each subject? Yup! I think they should have had at least 2 reviewers for each subject. I think they also should have offered free revisions for people, instead of making money for their (own) mistakes...  I totally believe in Master Teachers for students at the Junior High/High school levels because of seeing CC. We also.... listen to the memory work during the week. He's in Public School, but it's just a bit of Memory Work "Sprinkles" in his knowledge bank. I also have us review the Andrew Pudewa Poems :)  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have had cc thrown in my face for years, I know what you mean, cause Half of my friends are in it. It's ' shown me how unsuccessful I am as well as how I am successful. I have done a four year history cycle, but have been troubled at not being able to incorporate memorizing facts like they have. So I've been all about context. My son remembers some, not others. In fact, we took Konos and streamlined it to match our four year cycle as much as we could. I was impressed at the parroting of stuff, but in the end felt empty because of the practice of something without character development. Yes, we also took the money we saved and spent it on other curricula like sotw and moh and apologia. It's made me want to join because I do lack the rote memorization follow up I would otherwise have had. But, yeah, I decided to try many methods, cm -apologia, classical history and LA, unit study Konos with biblical character building, and well, it's working but also not... I am stressed trying to manage everything and getting burnt out faster... Trying to keep up with it all. I can't imagine how to do this change from this year into the next.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

PS I am an ISTJ and I could never handle CC.  I don't play nice in structured institutions with which I do not wholeheartedly agree, and I don't see the POINT of CC.  WHY would I go somewhere and pay all the money and all that time out of the schedule for something I can do at HOME?

 

THe ONLY CC that makes sense to me is the high school CC, but even then, half of the tutors are not experts in their field?  We have free co-ops that offer people who are experts in their field who volunteer their time or paid classes in which my kids can take just one or two high school courses from *experts in that subject.*  Which at the high school level, is what I would want. If I want someone to bungle through I CAN DO THAT FOR FREE at home.  

 

So I am not sure why anyone does it.  It must really be this:  A person really needs/craves/wants community and this community comes with benefits.  

 

I have been tortured trying to make sure we are covering high school since I have an up and coming 9th grader.  CC is big in our area.  We just dropped out of the online charter school which is the other big thing in our area.  So I took dd13 to an open house yesterday for Challenge 1.  Mind you she is already doing Saxon Algebra 1 and Physical Science at home so she was as prepared as the rest of the kids in those classes.  They are starting a new rule this next year that you have to be 14 to go into Challenge 1 and you have to do all 6 strands and they are piloting a new Challenge 1 that uses the same writing as Challenge B and less novels next year.  They don't know whether there will be new rules for age for Challenge 2, 3, and 4.  They said it is because of maturity.  But it is a nationwide change.  So she would start at Challenge 1 next year if we did it.

I looked at the catalog.  I looked at the guide.  I kept hearing this is so intense and full, but the day I sat in did not seem that way during the visit.  It seemed like they were sort of reviewing what the kids had already done at home and not all tutors were created equal.  The algebra 1 we sat in on was awful.  I had to finish the algebra problem on the board b/c it got so far off track and wrong.  A student had corrected the mistakes in a few earlier problems.  I cringed thinking how detrimental this could be if your child really needs higher math or how confusing it could be if your child understands higher math and the teacher doesn't.  I was told the teacher was having an off day.  I too have been looking for CC reviews.  I have had a hard time finding any that delved into the pros and cons in depth.

I don't get it.  I kept hearing accountability, but at this age i would be dropping off all day.  The tutor does not grade, does not assess, does not provide feedback on papers.  They basically just check to see if it is done?  So what am I paying almost $1200 for?  I was encouraged to come to a practicum.  I don't know.  

I just don't get what you are paying for and how much of a gamble you are running that the 4 years of high school you do at cc will give you a good tutor each year.  They get a 3 day training for tutoring for high school algebra, algebra 2, trig., calculus???  3 days training to tutor Biology, Chemistry, Physics???  I had only heard rave reviews locally but I just saw moms teaching high school courses or reviewing high school courses to the best of their ability.  Maybe I missed out on something.  

They are taking out the tests and using blue book assessments now but the teacher doesn't do anything with the assessments???  What are you paying the tutor to do?  I am so confused.  I thought it would be more of a learning experience at the CC than a review day with confusing algebra done incorrectly.  What am I missing?  Did I just go on an off day?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 The tutor does not grade, does not assess, does not provide feedback on papers.  They basically just check to see if it is done? 

 

I just don't get what you are paying for and how much of a gamble you are running that the 4 years of high school you do at cc will give you a good tutor each year.  

 

I had only heard rave reviews locally but I just saw moms teaching high school courses or reviewing high school courses to the best of their ability. 

 

Your assessment is correct. Last I heard they do grade the semester exams, but I don't know how in depth that goes. It does fulfill a need though, and some parents are fine with those parameters. As long as a family knows what they're getting, I don't have a problem with that. People are very intimidated with homeschooling through high school.  And people do tend to defend what they've signed up for and paid for.

 

We went to a custom mix for high school.  The one-size-fits all approach wasn't a go, and the level of the seminars didn't work for us.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dear Tidbits,

Please celebrate the freedom to educate your kids the way you think best! You can find help from books, older and wiser friends--plus there's always this board! ;>

 

I have been tortured trying to make sure we are covering high school since I have an up and coming 9th grader.  CC is big in our area. ...

I just don't get what you are paying for and how much of a gamble you are running that the 4 years of high school you do at cc will give you a good tutor each year.  They get a 3 day training for tutoring for high school algebra, algebra 2, trig., calculus???

 ...What are you paying the tutor to do?  I am so confused.  I thought it would be more of a learning experience at the CC than a review day with confusing algebra done incorrectly.  What am I missing?  Did I just go on an off day?

 

This is exactly why it is so troubling to me that CC has such a "stranglehold" on the market of co-ops! There are better ways to go about this, and there are people doing them all over. Its just that they don't have someone "marketing" them. Btw, that three day training is not in the subjects, it's in how to market CC's brand of classical ed. They are getting lots of people to sign up simply because of the great name recognition and the need of homeschoolers to have someone reassure them that they are on the right track and "covering the bases." 

 

Please rest assured that you do not need their "help."  You will do better off spending that money on some Teaching company dvds and inviting other homeschoolers to view them with you. Or, just start a book discussion club for teens! Anything to find fellowship among other the independently minded. I was a maverick from the get go; when we started homeschooling in 1991, I determined that we would take advantage of the freedom of homeschooling, and we would learn exactly what we judged was important in order to be well-educated. Oh my! we fell so short, but we enjoyed literary learning as much as possible, while also teaching the boys to do very useful work, so that they could always get a job. (My husband is an electrician and carpenter, so that was nice.) 

 

My boys, even our 'academic' sort, had a pitiful looking highschool transcript, but it never held them back from anything they wanted to accomplish. Developing the mind and the attitude: this is what counts. Just my 2c.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have been tortured trying to make sure we are covering high school since I have an up and coming 9th grader....They are starting a new rule this next year that you have to be 14 to go into Challenge 1 and you have to do all 6 strands... They said it is because of maturity.  But it is a nationwide change.  So she would start at Challenge 1 next year if we did it.

 

 

I loved the idea of Challenge and we are part of CC right now, but the rigid enforcement of rules like age cutoffs (and full attendance) is driving us away. Most of us pursue homeschooling for flexibility in meeting our children's needs. I agree with PP that perhaps CC's niche will evolve to be the place to go if you need support/accountability/community/preplanned and integrated curriculum all in one place. Because you do get that and I will miss that for next year (especially the aspect of dialectic discussion among students who share common content that has been integrated already, to a degree (although I'd love to hear from experienced Challenge parents about the degree to which that is true)). Based on my questions about "well, if we're not doing Challenge next year, then how can I duplicate that kind of dialectic discussion, I have NO idea where to start although I'm willing to try and develop something," Beth in Mint Hill made some suggestions and spawned this discussion for people like me, and I thought you may find it of interest: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/506693-starting-study-centers/

 

 

 and not all tutors were created equal.  The algebra 1 we sat in on was awful.  I had to finish the algebra problem on the board b/c it got so far off track and wrong.  A student had corrected the mistakes in a few earlier problems.  I cringed thinking how detrimental this could be if your child really needs higher math or how confusing it could be if your child understands higher math and the teacher doesn't.   

 

Or your child ends up being the unpaid teacher's assistant, like commonly happens in public schools. This is inevitable when you have a very strong math student and a teacher who is weak themselves in the subject and/or one or more students who are slowing down the rest of the class ("Johnny, why don't you go over there and help Jessie finish that problem while I move on..."). The comment about "not all tutors are created equal" and "the quality of the experience is largely driven by the quality of the tutor" and the fact that there is no quality control of who tutors ("I was willing and said I felt like I could handle it and they signed me up!") were common concerns upthread. But our Support/Area Manager said that staff trainings will now, more so than ever, emphasize that the tutor is "modeling lifelong learning by learning alongside the students in subjects they are not necessarily well versed in." 

 

I am still wrestling at times with my decision to withdraw from CC but I think I will rest in, as Beth said above, the freedom of homeschooling. And that doesn't dovetail well with CC's vision as currently implemented at the Challenge levels. I've now read the entire TWTM since making the decision to leave CC and I couldn't be more excited about the potential before us...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with PP that perhaps CC's niche will evolve to be the place to go if you need support/accountability/community/preplanned and integrated curriculum all in one place. Because you do get that and I will miss that for next year (especially the aspect of dialectic discussion among students who share common content that has been integrated already, to a degree (although I'd love to hear from experienced Challenge parents about the degree to which that is true)). 

 

We really didn't find the level of discussion to be consistently at what I would call dialectic or rhetorical level.  It was mostly pretty rote, assuming of course that they had actually read the book (which was a problem in our experience).  My oldest got extremely frustrated with this because the books indeed had many layers to discuss and debate, but it didn't go that way very often.  That and Latin were the primary reasons we moved on.

 

The integration was there, but it is going to happen somewhat naturally when you are together all day with one instructor.  It has always happened for us at home.  I even read all of the Challenge books that my kids read so we could discuss them before/after class.

 

But as I've said earlier, just about everyone else I knew during our years in Challenge were very happy and had no concerns.  So we went our way, and they went theirs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But our Support/Area Manager said that staff trainings will now, more so than ever, emphasize that the tutor is "modeling lifelong learning by learning alongside the students in subjects they are not necessarily well versed in." 

 

I am sorry but you don't just pick up Algebra through Calculus the year you tutor well enough to help students.  I can't imagine picking up Biology, Chemistry, and Physics alongside students either.  That is a lot to pay for a day with a tutor that is learning alongside my child.  I mean I can pay for a "real" tutor with a degree in maths to help with Algebra for less than this cost.  The Dive Cd's for Saxon are so much better than the confusing wrong Algebra I saw the other day.  I mean I had to physically work the problem for the class on the board.  The class wasn't talking much...just blank stares and the one kid who was proficient in Algebra correcting the teacher the whole hour.  The Latin I sat in had me shaking my head as well.  There was several times the tutor had the student try their hand b/c she wasn't sure of the pronunciation.  I let a few people know we were checking it out and I have been asked a lot what we thought.  My daughter would have signed up on the spot, but it would have been to hang out with the kids not for the academics.  We do a co-op already and it is mainly for social interaction but I thought CC gave you a "tutor" that was skilled in the subjects and well versed in them.  I had no idea their training was on how cc marketing works.  I just didn't see where it was that full especially in history.  It seems like history is all debate?   The literature is not any more than we do now at home and the math and science is behind where she will be next year.  

I am glad I saw this thread b/c it really gave me a lot to ponder, but the whole idea that I am paying tuition to someone who is learning beside my high school student seems ludicrous.  Life long learning is not the same as trying to dust off cobwebs from your own high school education to get paid to tutor other people's kids once a week.  I am sorry but it just seems like they sell it totally different than the reality.  I mean if it is really you are doing all the work and the kids go 1 day a week and the tutor may not have the answers...then are you paying $1175 for a guide book to teach your child b/c the books don't even come with the tuition and the tutor is not really a "tutor" in the sense that I would use the word tutor.  A tutor is someone knowledgeable in the subject that is helping your child to succeed in a course.  CC does not sound like tutor is the right word they should be using.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For Challenge 1 it is $1175 not including Registration $120 Facility Fee-varies by campus, and supply fee.  Plus you still have to buy all the books.  You pay it up front by the semester and no refunds if it doesn't work for you.  Pay 1/2 in July and 1/2 in January.  I seriously thought about it if I could sub out the math and science and put dd's where they placed for those while doing the Lit and other courses at Challenge 1.  Only to find out they put an age cap and the campuses around here talk maturity a lot.  Well the Challenge 1 class dd sat in on only had 2 true freshman.  There were kids 18 in there???  So maybe I am just confused and don't get it, but I thought Challenge 1-4 was 9th-12th grade?  

All I kept hearing is CC is so full, but I didn't see it while I was there.  At least what they get during the day of tutoring that costs so much.  They even tried to talk me into starting at Challenge A with dd13 b/c of her age and maturity when she already has high school credits from our charter school???  She has actually already read quite a lot of the literature in Challenge 1 and the only new things would be the CC exclusive items.

I also heard you get accountability with it, but with no grading... They won't be grading the semester assessments now either.  They are going to blue book assessments and parents give all grades.  The tutor may not know the answers and it is really just review days for science and math from what you already did at home during the week.  I don't see any accountability there.  Paying a huge sum for someone to look and ask my kid if they did the assignments?  That isn't accountability.  

I thought it was more a tutor that helped and guided the students on one day and then the assignments were given for the next week.  It is the opposite.  They are actually supposed to have the 1st week's assignments completed and the teacher goes over 5 days of work in one hour for each subject during the meeting day.  I only stayed for the Latin, Physical Science, and Algebra 1 classes which were the morning classes.  dd sat in on the afternoon classes without me and I picked her up at 3.  Debate was a part of the 2nd half of the day and I am assuming logic and economics?  I really don't know.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey guys I'm starting a physics class! I won't pre-teach the material, you have to do the work first! Also, I don't have a degree I. Physics. Or science, or math, or teaching. I'll be reading the physics course ahead of time. (I did of course take physics in high school 20 years ago!) and you can't leave. You have to volunteer to be a part of my class. I don't grade work- only exams and honestly my goal is to model learning as a lifelong endeavor. I don't really profess to be any better at physics than your kids.

 

Only 600.00

 

Oh wait it's actually 1200.00 because you aren't allowed to just take my physics. You have to take all my other courses too. And you have to pay for books. My homeschool mom friends teach all the other classes and they don't know a thing about their subjects either. But you will get community and accountability and you will at least be forced to read great books and home and study hard at home and make flip books and posters at home and do your homework at home and keep up with all the learning and teaching at home. We just kind of review and ask questions and we have nice discussions (if the kids are in the mood)

 

1300.00

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At first I thought we were all crazy to take you up on your offer, calming tea.  But the other alternative for people doing Apologia Physics at home is that they do Apologia Physics at home.  So what you offer is still better than what they do at home.  Oh, and yes I can go home, because it's only for Foundations and Essentials that parents have to remain in the class.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But the other alternative for people doing Apologia Physics at home is that they do Apologia Physics at home. So what you offer is still better than what they do at home.

Are you being serious bc if you are being satirical I am missing it. CT, otoh, has nailed pretty much every co-op we have tried.

 

And if you are being serious, you are sorely mistaken about what takes place in a lot of homeschools. What CC offers is vastly inferior to "just at home" here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay, so I'm trying to get a little bit of a rise out of you, lol!  The truth is, if my dc was being taught by someone who made countless errors while tutoring Algebra I, I would have to stay in the class and raise my hand to correct all the mistakes (and/or speak with the director pronto about what was happening).  Also, to respond to what someone else was saying, I believe the cut-off limit for a challenge class is 12 (unless I am mistaken, which wouldn't be the first time).  We had 13 in Challenge A this year, and the campus is going to work extra hard to keep class sizes more manageable for all (especially watching the boy/girl ratio as we had 9 boys plus 4 girls in this year's class and that got a bit rowdy at times, if you know what I mean!).

 

But seriously, for my ds, doing Apologia science at home on his own would almost certainly be inferior to what he gets out of the once-a-week classroom dynamic.  Plus, this year in Challenge A they got to dissect a sheep's brain, a sheep's heart, and an eyeball.  I am very grateful to not have to do those kinds of labs in our kitchen, thank you!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay, so I'm trying to get a little bit of a rise out of you, lol!  The truth is, if my dc was being taught by someone who made countless errors while tutoring Algebra I, I would have to stay in the class and raise my hand to correct all the mistakes (and/or speak with the director pronto about what was happening).  Also, to respond to what someone else was saying, I believe the cut-off limit for a challenge class is 12 (unless I am mistaken, which wouldn't be the first time).  We had 13 in Challenge A this year, and the campus is going to work extra hard to keep class sizes more manageable for all (especially watching the boy/girl ratio as we had 9 boys plus 4 girls in this year's class and that got a bit rowdy at times, if you know what I mean!).

 

But seriously, for my ds, doing Apologia science at home on his own would almost certainly be inferior to what he gets out of the once-a-week classroom dynamic.  Plus, this year in Challenge A they got to dissect a sheep's brain, a sheep's heart, and an eyeball.  I am very grateful to not have to do those kinds of labs in our kitchen, thank you!

Of course, many homeschoolers are doing serious dissections at home, and getting more out of their independent lessons than they would at the co-op.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the tutor is "modeling lifelong learning by learning alongside the students in subjects they are not necessarily well versed in." 

 

 

I don't know that I could provide a good definition of Classical education.  I suspect if you asked 10 Classical experts, you might get 12 answers.

 

But, a vital component of Classical education is the value and understanding of the power of language, both as it has been written and passed down to us in literature for 2000+ years, and the power to use language persuasively and correctly ourselves to express our opinions and search for truth.

 

The word "tutor" conventionally means a subject-matter expert who teaches one other person or a small group.  Bending the definition of this work for marketing and sales purposes to mean something completely different is an abuse of language, and to my mind, in and of itself, clearly antithetical to the notion of Classical education.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay, so I'm trying to get a little bit of a rise out of you, lol! The truth is, if my dc was being taught by someone who made countless errors while tutoring Algebra I, I would have to stay in the class and raise my hand to correct all the mistakes (and/or speak with the director pronto about what was happening). Also, to respond to what someone else was saying, I believe the cut-off limit for a challenge class is 12 (unless I am mistaken, which wouldn't be the first time). We had 13 in Challenge A this year, and the campus is going to work extra hard to keep class sizes more manageable for all (especially watching the boy/girl ratio as we had 9 boys plus 4 girls in this year's class and that got a bit rowdy at times, if you know what I mean!).

 

But seriously, for my ds, doing Apologia science at home on his own would almost certainly be inferior to what he gets out of the once-a-week classroom dynamic. Plus, this year in Challenge A they got to dissect a sheep's brain, a sheep's heart, and an eyeball. I am very grateful to not have to do those kinds of labs in our kitchen, thank you!

You lost me at Apologia bc it doesn't pass muster here. I have very high criteria. And even if my kids were doing Apologia at home, it would be a top notch class. Btw, we have done those dissections for anatomy. No biggie. They weren't messy in the slightest. You can order them in a set of 4 cheaply......you were missing kidneys from your list.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay, so I'm trying to get a little bit of a rise out of you, lol!  The truth is, if my dc was being taught by someone who made countless errors while tutoring Algebra I, I would have to stay in the class and raise my hand to correct all the mistakes (and/or speak with the director pronto about what was happening).  Also, to respond to what someone else was saying, I believe the cut-off limit for a challenge class is 12 (unless I am mistaken, which wouldn't be the first time).  We had 13 in Challenge A this year, and the campus is going to work extra hard to keep class sizes more manageable for all (especially watching the boy/girl ratio as we had 9 boys plus 4 girls in this year's class and that got a bit rowdy at times, if you know what I mean!).

 

But seriously, for my ds, doing Apologia science at home on his own would almost certainly be inferior to what he gets out of the once-a-week classroom dynamic.  Plus, this year in Challenge A they got to dissect a sheep's brain, a sheep's heart, and an eyeball.  I am very grateful to not have to do those kinds of labs in our kitchen, thank you!

 

You could probably pay for another homeschool class for Apologia Science for much less than 1200.00.  And you could have dissected those animals at home.  You just don't desire to do so.  

 

So you are proving my point- you are there for accountability (your son doesn't learn well at home on his own.  He doesn't soar with or have the motivation for independent learning or you are somehow unable or uninterested to enjoy the book with him.) and community...he likes being in a class.  This proves my point.  You are paying, primarily, for community and accountability.

 

Not attacking you...just saying..it's really about the accountability and the community. WHich is not a bad thing, if that's what you need or want.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not only that, but I can just imagine the unscientific foolishness that would result in doing dissections in a group. I'm sure there could be benefits (can't really think of them now) but there are always negatives to group interaction as well.  

 

8FillTheHeart= what do you use for high school Science?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, you are correct, calming tea, in saying that we like CC for the accountability and community.  Dialectic skills development involves having others around  for debate and discussion, giving and listening to others giving presentations, etc.  And the motivation level for getting work done on time each week has been fantastic for all of us this year.  Now I do have to say that my ds has had a truly wonderful tutor at a CC campus that seems professionally run, so I realize that these are all pluses that I cannot take for granted.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Exactly! Not everyone has the type of family and life that lends itself to useful and productive discussions! Different families, personalities and abilities in the natural life of the 12-17 year old could make that difficult. . I'm so glad that you have found the community and accountability.

I think that CC is a very useful option for some. Just not what we need or want and seems expensive for what you get.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also, don't forget Essentials if your dc is in grades 4-6. My dd has really thrived with Essentials this year. Yes, she has happily copied and has memorized most of Grammar Charts A-Q. And IEW really works well in a classroom-type setting, so her writing skills have greatly improved this year (particularly in the fact that I don't have any more crying or moping sessions when it comes time for writing assignments at home). Currently, she is actively engaged in doing a research report on Joan of Arc ON HER OWN, and doing it contentedly, which is amazing to me.

 

Snip.

Just pointing out that this is what I mean about community and accountability. You have a degree and are educated and knowledgable yet you do not have the ability to motivate your dd. yet she is motivated (kept accountable)by the group she attends. You don't seem to be applauding the laurels of your tutor or even the curriculum. You are applauding the motivation that comes from community.

 

If people find community elsewhere (friends, church, organizations like 4h, a good homeschool support group) and they don't need accountability, then CC will be a waste for them. I think This would be helpful as people look into it. If a homeschool mom and child already have a vibrant social life and they already have a handle on academics and personal motivation then really CC won't be worth the time and money.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oral presentations and public speaking are a large part of CC which one can not do at home. 

I am not saying that anyone should do CC or that it is a good deal, but you are in error by reducing it to "community and accountability."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oral presentations and public speaking are a large part of CC which one can not do at home.

I am not saying that anyone should do CC or that it is a good deal, but you are in error by reducing it to "community and accountability."

Again, I think the point is that having your child do something in public can be arranged in other venues that don't require such a hefty price. The high cost is supposed to be justified by training and expertise, and standardization by the company, correct? But the training and expertise seem lacking for the price, that's all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Again, I think the point is that having your child do something in public can be arranged in other venues that don't require such a hefty price. The high cost is supposed to be justified by training and expertise, and standardization by the company, correct? But the training and expertise seem lacking for the price, that's all.

 

 

Agreed.  My kids have had several excellent opportunities for public speaking, and weren't even seeking it out. One could easily arrange all kinds of opportunities, groups and venues to practice that kind of thing, for a lot less money and time commitment. 

 

Also, I would include that under the category of "community" because if you are involved in your church youth group, 4H, scouting, clubs, conferences, or just about any ongoing club or leadership activity, that community will present natural opportunities for public speaking...so I still think this fits under the category of "community."  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I read about 80% of this thread, and I just wanted to say...

 

"yup...mmmmhmmm." 

 

especially the 27 reasons not to join.  :iagree:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...