Math--Early algebra or take your time and go deeper?

[Closeacademy]

If you had it to do all over again, would you push through and get to algebra at an early age even though maturity may not be there or would you rather take your time working on basic math skills and perhaps use a secondary curriculum to make sure that they have a good foundation and do algebra at the normal time?

 

I thought it would be interesting to see what homeschoolers who are more experienced might have to say. My oldest is on track to start algebra in 5th grade but I am thinking of taking our time so that she doesn't start until 8th.

 

Thanks.:001_smile:

[Jane in NC]

Before rendering an opinion, could you tell us what curriculum you are currently using? What do you intend to use for so called "pre-algebra" if it varies from what you are using now?

 

Best,

 

The mathematically curious Jane

[Closeacademy]

We are using Singapore and the plan is to use NEM afterwards. I am looking at supplementing with the texts that the public schools threw out when they switched to a state theme for all their textbooks. I have the 3rd to 6th grade books. They are set up in such a way that I can have her do the unit tests and go back and have her work on the material that she didn't know or understand on the test.

 

Thanks.:001_smile:

[plansrme]

Three years is a long time to stall. You could always slow down later if necessary. My 4th grader did algebra I successfully this past year. I didn't see any maturity issues with her, but maybe that's just her. She is now doing Geometry and Alg. II concurrently over 2 years, starting yesterday.

 

Terri

[Jane in NC]

We are using Singapore and the plan is to use NEM afterwards. I am looking at supplementing with the texts that the public schools threw out when they switched to a state theme for all their textbooks. I have the 3rd to 6th grade books. They are set up in such a way that I can have her do the unit tests and go back and have her work on the material that she didn't know or understand on the test.

 

Thanks.:001_smile:

 

If your child is flying through Singapore, I would say that she is prepared to move on--no reason to hold her back!

 

Be prepared, though, for some natural slow downs when hormones kick in. At least that was the case when my son hit age twelve.

 

Take a look at some of Myrtle's old posts for additional math supplementation.

 

Jane

[Storm Bay]

Speaking of Myrtle, she gave me some helpful advice when I posed a similar question in this thread, http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5910 --just to save you some search time.

 

With my first, we went to early Algebra and took it slowly because she loathes math even though she's a natural with it. With my second, we're going to combine Russian Math with Singapore Math 6 (dd wanted to skip SM 6 & go straight to pre-Alg, and tested ready, but I don't think she's mature enough for long problems yet. She does 2 math programs and is "ready" for pre-alg with the other program.) In our case, she's very vs and needs to learn to translate more complex math into language to be ready for proofs.

[EKS]

My son started algebra in 5th grade. It can be done (though for various reasons he won't finish until this fall). What I would do is see where you want to end up at the end of high school. Then work backwards. My opinion is that it is better to go deeper before going faster or if you must go faster then go deeper and somewhat faster. I think just going faster does gifted math students a disservice. So my plan is to slow things down by adding some Art of Problem Solving books alongside our regular program. Some books that are good for younger kids are Challenge Math and I'm sure you are familiar with the Challenging Word Problems and Intensive Practice books.

 

My 6yo is also on track (at the moment, things could easily change) to start algebra in 5th grade but after the experience I had with my 12yo, I will probably do a solid prealgebra/review of arithmetic program with him in 5th and start algebra in 6th.

[KAR120C]

I've not really BTDT (quite), but we're in the middle of it right now. DS is ridiculously young for Algebra, but he plowed through Singapore Primary (with CWP) at top speed and had no trouble moving on. I would have been happy to stop and "smell the roses" but honestly in arithmetic there just aren't that many roses to smell. Once you've got some Algebra behind you though, there are SO many options for going deep that just required a little facility with manipulating variables.

 

What we ended up doing after Primary 6 was to dabble in a few different algebra materials (Kinetic Books and Gelfand), and then move on to NEM. We did only the algebra chapters of NEM 1 and then skipped to the algebra chapters of NEM 2, which we should be done with in about two weeks. We've taken our time with it, and it's been a little over a year now since we started... but there are plenty of rabbit trails to explore in Algebra! :)

 

Officially we're doing Statistics this next year, but we're also doing Zome Geometry on the side, and dabbling in the geometry chapters of NEM 1 and 2 and a little Euclid... The following year I think we'll finish up geometry and then the year after, something else. Combinatorics might be fun. Somewhere in there we might pick up Gelfand again. And then there are dozens of other clever little math niches we could explore, each of them reasonably accessible at this point.

[Susan in TN]

My oldest ds started Algebra in 6th grade. He also breezed through Singapore, and I decided to let him go slow and deep in algebra. For 6th grade, he did ch. 1-8 of NEM1 and books #1-4 of "Keys to Algebra". This year he is doing the rest of NEM1, books #5-10 of "Keys to" and starting work on Gelfand's Algebra (proofs). We plan to continue with NEM, but also plan to spend as much time on algebra as possible. Even if we drop NEM and use something else in the future, I still plan to revisit algebra in high school - I've heard too many comments stating that kids who complete higher math in high school (AP calculus and statistics) are often unprepared for college math because they can't remember how to do algebra. :tongue_smilie:

 

FWIW, speeding through arithmatic/elementary math is very common, but speeding through algebra at an early age is not. Your son may be different, but I would just give the usual caution about planning too far ahead.

 

Also be sure to check your state's graduation requirements, if that's an issue for you. If Algebra I has to be listed on your transcript, make sure it can be counted if completed before 8th/9th grade. Obviously, your student can still complete algebra early, just make sure you know where/if it has to be.

[LaJuana]

...toward algebra. I have run into situations with children who were ready for algebra at age 10, but who just could not quite master it until they had a couple of years to mature. The hazard is that when the child encounters difficulties because they just do not have the conceptual maturity to progress at a reasonable pace, they can begin to think that they are just "not good at math." This can be a shame, especially with students who are very bright and capable in mathematics, but just not quite mature enough for algebra. I would also be concerned that moving through math so quickly could contribute to a kind of lopsided intellectual development. Instead I wish I had spent more time on the history of mathematics and lots more on different applications of elementary concepts.

 

I think books like Key to Algebra can serve as a good bridge to algebra, and used alongside or after a really strong pre-algebra program, they can help to prepare the student for a more challenging algebra course, while giving them time to mature.

 

Based on my own experience, I would not push on into algebra with a 10yo unless you are truly raising a young Einstein. I think it is much wiser to wait until age 12 or so. In the meantime, I would look for a curriculum that encourages the student to apply elementary math and pre-algebra concepts in as many different ways as possible, exercising the child's mastery of mathematical thinking. I have wished that I had used Harold Jacobs' book, Mathematics: A Human Endeavor instead of moving a younger child directly into Algebra. I've always wanted to use that book, but never took time to do it.

[Gwen in VA]

If you do choose to do algebra early, be prepared to step back and have him need to re-do the material.

 

Our son finished Dolciani's pre-algebra with flying colors in 6th grade. He has always gotten ALL the math questions correct on the yearly Standford Achievement Test. We were convinced that he was MORE than ready to do algebra.

 

He struggled and struggled and struggled with Dolciani's Algebra 1. We finally had him just work through all of the Key to Algebra workbooks and then redo Algebra 1 the following year. I joke that his synapses just hadn't fully developed -- he is now through calculus 2 and got all 800's on the math sections of SAT, PSAT and math SAT-II. Math ability wasn't the question -- but math maturity was.

 

Our youngest will start algebra this fall -- a year early. We have already warned her that she may not succeed. (This sounds so negative!) We just wanted to prepare her if she follows my older son's lead and bottoms out on algebra at age 12.

 

Even if your child doesn't complete algebra 1 until the end of 8th grade, he should still be able to get through calculus 2 by the end of high school if that is a priority.

[Closeacademy]

This is what I am hearing:

 

Whether we start algebra at 5th or 8th grade we will probably finish at about the same time because they are not mature enough to do algebra at a younger age.

 

This makes me really think that it would better serve us to spend more time reinforcing the basic concepts, exploring fun math topics and building a good solid foundation and start algebra around 7th or 8th grade rather than in 5th or 6th.

 

Thanks, this has all really helped.:001_smile:

[kiana]

Hi, sorry I'm slightly late to this discussion but I blundered onto this site while searching the web for something else.

 

I was homeschooled myself, but the local university ran a private Saturday class where you'd do Algebra I/II in one year (one semester each). During the week you'd do homework independently, learning from the book, which would be submitted on Saturday and returned the next.

 

The youngest student in the class was 9, the oldest was 14. Most were 12-14, but remember this was accelerated to fit both years into one. Everyone passed. I think there was one C.

 

The entry requirement was that you'd take the SAT-Math (The old one -- I believe they've added some Algebra II now) under their supervision, not formally. I believe he'd just bought a prep book with practice exams in it and used those. If you scored in the 50th percentile for college-bound seniors, they'd let you into the Algebra class. Otherwise, you'd take a Pre-Algebra/Problem Solving class and retake the SAT-Math at the end of the year. The instructor's reasoning was that the above-level exam tested critical thinking and whether you really did have a solid understanding of preparatory mathematics.

 

We did some proofs in preparation for Geometry/Precalculus the next year. I don't have my book on hand, but I remember that we started out with the basic properties of real numbers such as the distributive/associative/commutative laws. I did learn Algebra well and thoroughly, and had no problems with any further math classes. As a matter of fact, I found Calculus very easy because I'd actually learned Algebra thoroughly.

 

I hope that I haven't gone on too long.

[Mom24bz1g]

Ds 13-8th is taking Jacob's Algebra this year, along with finishing TT Algebra and going straight into TT Algebra II. He has also taken and finished NEM 1 last year - 7th grade.

 

He wants to tutor Math to earn money for his high school years and through college. We have always done Singapore Math with one other math thrown in that they work on their own. They are used to this because it's been that way from the beginning.

 

I guess we're going deeper and earlier. We'll see how it works out in the end. I have another son 3/4 grade - just turned 9. He is in Junior High Math. His maturity and writing skills are simply not good enough to go at the pace he is in math. I held him back last year waiting for his writing skills to catch up. So far, they haven't!!! We'll see how this year goes. I expect him to finish and be ready for Pre-Algebra before the year ends.

 

My other sons are on the same track to be ready for Algebra in the 7th grade. Don't know about my dd because she is in PK, but I expect to do the same with her.

 

We are heavy on Math because so far the degrees they want will require heavy math and science. It will be interesting in the years to come to see how this works out for us.

 

Blessings,

Michele

[8filltheheart]

I did both. My 12 yos started alg in 5th grade. We started with a simpler, more basic text. He repeated alg in 6th grade with a more complicated text. I am really glad we took that approach b/c there is no question that he has a firm conceptual understanding of algebra.

 

We started back to school this week and he is doing geometry. (He is doing math with an older sibling) While his sibling is loving geometry (she isn't thrilled with math), he is finding it a different beast. Not that he doesn't like it or can't do it, but he really loves numbers and this week has been mostly syllogisms, understanding the difference between intuition, induction, and deduction. It is rather cute in many respects b/c I can literally see the wheels turning in his head as he contemplates what he is doing. ;)

[KAR120C]

This is what I am hearing:

 

Whether we start algebra at 5th or 8th grade we will probably finish at about the same time because they are not mature enough to do algebra at a younger age.:001_smile:

I think it would be more accurate to say that some kids (maybe the vast majority?) won't be ready to do algebra at a younger age. But I also see several of us here who have had no problem. So while it would be worth it to keep in mind that moving forward might not be the right choice, each child will approach it differently. And I think there's no one "safe" choice -- either you could move too fast and burn them out or move too slow and make it boring. Both choices have their potential drawbacks, but as long as you're paying attention and you're willing to change plans, I think you can safely try either way.

 

My main argument for going ahead (provided it works and isn't frustrating) is that once you have mastered the bare basics of algebra -- not even the tricky stuff -- you open up so many more interesting paths to try, and you can "wallow" there for ages and ages without running out of interesting things to learn. So moving ahead now doesn't necessarily mean racing straight to calculus, and taking advantage of all of those possible paths means that when you do get to calculus, you'll have actually done a great deal more than most people ever even hear about.

[8filltheheart]

I think it would be more accurate to say that some kids (maybe the vast majority?) won't be ready to do algebra at a younger age. But I also see several of us here who have had no problem. So while it would be worth it to keep in mind that moving forward.

 

I agree. My 12 yos more than grasps algebra. He thrives in it. I had him sitting and watching Chalkdust's SAT DVDs with my rising 11th and 9th graders over the summer. He answered questions faster than both of them. This doesn't speak ill of the older 2's math skills, b/c all of my kids are strong in math.

 

I don't think you can generalize this issue. I think all you can do is teach them where they are and observe. I do think racing forward should absolutely be avoided. My sister did that with my neice and she has basically no understanding of upper level math. However, if you child has a firm grasp of what they are doing and is proving that they do, there is no reason to not progress.

 

MUS's algebra and geometry combo book (from their classic texts) is very concrete based and totally appropriate for kids that have mastered basic arithematic skills. All of my older kids have gone through it in 7th grade at the latest, 5th grade at the youngest. It is an excellent stepping stone into more abstract algebra programs.

[Storm Bay]

I agree. My 12 yos more than grasps algebra. He thrives in it. I had him sitting and watching Chalkdust's SAT DVDs with my rising 11th and 9th graders over the summer. He answered questions faster than both of them. This doesn't speak ill of the older 2's math skills, b/c all of my kids are strong in math.

 

 

12 isn't really that young for Algebra, and here it depends on the child's level of giftedness (if that's part of it), maturity to handle longer problems, and brain development. My eldest started Algebra at 11, and since she loathes arithmetic, this was a lot more pleasant, not that she likes math per se. She love the theoretical aspects of Algebra more than working problems. But since she hated it, we took 2 years to do it and divided lessons in half--not because she couldn't comprehend it, and not because she wasn't intellectually ready, but because it is such a struggle to get her to do her school work in general as she could easily have been named Born Lollygagger ;).

 

Had I been allowed to do math at my speed, I could have easily sped through all of this math and retained it at a young age, so I know it can be done. However, I was hampered by the ps system. I think it's a judgement call.

 

As for going deeper with math before pre-Algebra, Russian Math is one approach (as I think I mentioned--the book I bought from Perpendicular Press), and Myrtle has also recommended another. I highly recommend reading her posts, and even checking some of her math posts on her blog. Her dh is a mathematician, and her eldest is very mathy. She has some great insights on teaching math to children. Others do, too, but she has written things down in ways that I find very helpful, even though I'm mathy.

 

The decision, of course, is highly individual, and not all young Algebra learners will forget by the SATs even though many do.

[8filltheheart]

12 isn't really that young for Algebra, and here it depends on the child's level of giftedness (if that's part of it), maturity to handle longer problems, and brain development.

 

I agree. The OP was asking about age 10 (or typical 5th grade). I posted earlier in this thread my ds completed a fairly concrete alg program at age 10, repeated it with a more conceptual/analytical approach at age 11, and is currently working on geometry as a 12 yr old. It sounds like this pattern is what was concerning the OP.

 

FWIW....all of my older kids, 4 so far, have started alg as 12 yr olds.

[Brindee]

My dd11 (going into 6th) did TT Pre-Algebra last year and did fine. I had her take the Saxon Placement Test, and she tested well into Algebra 1. However, she doesn't WANT to do Algebra! We decided to go with laying a broader/deeper base, and got her R&S 8th grade math for this coming school year (we haven't started yet). We're also supplementing with Singapore---she's doing 5B right now.

 

So, what do you all think of R&S math? Where would you go from here if you were me? Oh, in case you didn't figure it out, dd is very good at math, but does not like it! Too bad, since she has potential! :)

[Moni]

Hi Terri,

May I ask which math programs you are using? Thank youl

 

:-)

 

 

Three years is a long time to stall. You could always slow down later if necessary. My 4th grader did algebra I successfully this past year. I didn't see any maturity issues with her, but maybe that's just her. She is now doing Geometry and Alg. II concurrently over 2 years, starting yesterday.

 

Terri

[Jenny in Florida]

. . . I am slowing down a bit with the second one. My daughter hit algebra at age 8, mostly because we simply didn't know where else to go with her. She did fine with it, but didn't particularly like it. And I was, at that time, not as familiar with the various math options as I am now and used what was handy, rather than working very hard to find the right resources for her. So, it became kind of a drudge to get through.

 

I don't think it was a disaster. She was probably not going to be a math person in the long run, anyway. And she did fine when she moved on. She downright liked geometry and did well in Algebra II. She took College Algebra last year and breezed through that. And, as a liberal arts major, she doesn't need much more math. So, while I don't think our decision was a "mistake," I am taking a slightly different route with my son.

 

With him, I outsourced math earlier, as soon as we started having tension about me teaching it. He started "middle school" math early and went through it at an accelerated pace (three years of coursework in slightly less than two academic years). At that point, he was primed for algebra, but I just knew he wasn't ready for the whole enchilada.

 

So, we decided to spread the regular Algebra I coursework over about one and one-third academic years. (The specifics were sort of accidental. We just went ahead and started the algebra class when he finished the last of the middle school courses.) Alongside that, we're doing some enrichment, living math stuff to try and jazz things up and make math more fun.

 

He'll still be pretty young by the time he finishes this class, about two years "behind" his big sister. But I hope he'll end up with a more positive attitude about math as a result.

 

If I had a kid who just loved math, lived for it, considered it a punishment not to be allowed to blaze on ahead, I'd keep going without a second thought.

[bettyandbob]

My ds took algebra 1 as a young sixth grader (age 10), geometry in seventh, algebra 2/trig in 8th. He is now in 9th at the public high school. I decided that to smooth the transition from homeschool to public high school that he would repeat algebra 2/trig. He could have moved on to precalc, but the title of the class scared him a little. Taking algebra 2/trig this year he will still be able to take 2 years of calculus before high school graduation. His math class is mostly ninth graders. Ds feels the teacher is very good. This will give him a year to get more solid in algebra and be at the top of the class. This approach looks like it will be positive for ds.

 

dd just started on a similar track this year. We will decide in 8th if she will homeschool through high school. Until then, I will be reviewing her progress in math. She is already talking about the magnet science high school though and she has emphasized to me the need for math.

 

I would vote against holding your dc back from taking higher level math. I think introducing higher level concepts keeps a student interested in the subject. I would choose a good program (or two) that fits your dc's learning style and proceed. If you are teaching it yourself, you could slow the pace of the course for him get each concept solidly. As you finish each level reassess his progress and retention. Be prepared to take the time to review with a different curriculum (different approach) to get the concepts solid.