What are your thoughts on competition?

[Donna]

I saw this article on the Homeschooling Mensans facebook page http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/08/20/library-director-says-year-old-should-step-aside-to-let-others-win-reading/  and it felt a lot like something we are dealing with right now.

 

My dd has been involved in a certain small competition for a few years. We have attended to support those running the competition because they are trying to grow the competition and encourage interest and so dd can hang out with her friends who also attend. Dd has won in her age group (13 and under) since she was 7yo so last year the director said she could move up to the next age group (14-18).

 

After I sent in the application this year, the director called and asked that dd not compete at all. Her winning every year was making other parents not sign their children up (because they felt they had no chance to win...though there are 3 places awarded) and there would be no competition for her in either age group. So, instead of supporting the event, it turned out dd was keeping other people away.

 

The director offered to allow dd perform as a "special guest" rather than compete. I was happy about her suggestion....we can go, hang out with friends, and support the competition without "scaring" others away....but, I have mixed feelings about the attitude of those other parents who complained about dd being there.

 

I have been in the position of being the parent of the child who is not "the best" at something. I have never felt that I wouldn't have them compete because they might not win.  I understand wanting your child to win but, to me, seeing others who are better than them gives them something to strive for and lets them know what they need to work harder on. To me, there are other benefits to doing a competition whether it is sports or music or whatever...they work hard on something (in music it would be their competition tunes or piece) to bring it to a certain level, hear/meet others interested in the same thing, hang out with friends, and perform in front of people. Winning is just an added benefit and never the only reason my kids compete. To me, learning to "lose gracefully" and appreciating the skill of others is also an important life lesson.

 

I was wondering how others with "accelerated" kids feel about competition. Would you not have your child compete if there was someone else who was much better than them (not in their league, so to speak)? Would you be annoyed if other people didn't want your child to compete because they were really good?

[Dmmetler]

My DD thrives on academic competition, and in her first competition that she didn't win, I was afraid it would crush her. Instead, it was the opposite. She got more and more excited as she saw names appear ahead of hers on the leader board, because those were people, even if they were on the other side of the world, who were like her-who would understand just how much she loves math and who love it as much as she does. Her comment was "It's almost like having friends who you never get to meet". And she was just as excited to do the same competition the following year. She did improve her standings the second year, but still didn't place particularly high. And she was just as thrilled. Winning without effort doesn't make her feel nearly as good as losing against a valiant foe. (And I've heard her use those exact words ;) ).

 

That was one reason why last year became a contest year for us, and it's why we're traveling several hours so she can do a math competition live. Because for her, it's not winning or losing that's important. It's being part of the group.

 

 

[mom2bee]

The more reasonable thing to do would be to make ability-based categories. Duh!

 

I don't know how many kids compete in these various competitions but reading 63 books in a 6 weeks isn't some huge accomplishment that other 8-11 yos cant match or even come close too. Not if they are all on grade level and reading books at their own individual level. Sheesh, you can read a bunch of beginning reader books and Now I'm Reading type books and get that quantity, easily. So the 2nd graders had a fair shot. There are hundreds of picture story books that are at advanced levels and worthy of being counted on a reading log for children in the 6th and 7th grade so no one really can't say that there was nothing that they could read!

 

I don't know what books were on the list, but things like Magic Tree House, Artemis Fowl, Harry Potter, Series of Unfortunate Events, Guardians, etc... are all fairly simple and straight forward reads--maybe not the whole HP series, but there are tons of books that I'd expect an 8-11yo to be able to read in a day or two and if the library is the source then they should have had access to plenty.

 

If these kids were really competitors, they'd be thinking of and scheming of new ways to win. That's what competitors do, you devise fair ways to win. I find it hard to believe that NONE of those elementary aged kids or their parents (who actually wanted to win) could think of a way to read a larger quantity of books than this kid who's been winning for years. The other kids aren't serious and the boys who is winning. Since he's serious and the others don't seem to be, I say let him win and let him wipe the floor with the others. (Or create graduated brackets! This isn't rocket science--sheesh!)

 

Its a competition and sometimes you will have individuals who are so out of the league of the competition that they need somewhere else to compete but thats fine. This is a community event--aren't there enough kids to make ability based groups and just leave the grade levels off. Aren't the kids serious enough to actually try and compete!

Communities need to make up their minds--is about playing the game, or whether you win or lose?

I love competing, but I don't usually take first place in anything. I still love to compete!

Kids should be encouraged to compete and they should be encouraged to play to win--try to win. Not just play and hope that no one tries harder than you so that you might qualify for a prize!

[Crimson Wife]

If my child just blew away the competition more than one year in a row, I probably would try to find a different contest for him/her (unless it was a feeder to a higher-level competition like a spelling bee or science fair preliminary). My goal is to challenge the child, and if there aren't any other kids in the competition at a similar level and it doesn't lead to a higher-level competition, then IMHO participating is a waste of his/her time. I personally feel my kids would gain far more out of a hard-fought loss than coasting to an easy win.

 

My DD last year participated in a competition that she had almost no hope of making past the initial round (the NACLO as a 5th grader). Unsurprisingly, she fell way, way short of the cutoff for the second round but she LOVED participating. She thought it was a fun challenge and she's hoping to improve her score this year (even if the chances of advancing to the 2nd round remain very slim).

[Arcadia]

My dd has been involved in a certain small competition for a few years.

.....

After I sent in the application this year, the director called and asked that dd not compete at all. Her winning every year was making other parents not sign their children up (because they felt they had no chance to win...though there are 3 places awarded) and there would be no competition for her in either age group. So, instead of supporting the event, it turned out dd was keeping other people away.

If it is small enough (as in few competitors) competition that your daughter is winning three years in a row, my hubby would not be keen to let any of our kids participate. He would just look for other competitions if our kids are interested.

It is kind of like spelling bee, once a champion the person cannot compete again so others have a chance.

If it was the Olympics, or Wimbledon or competitive individual sports, than it might make sense for the world champion to compete again and again until someone unseat them or the world champ retire. However there is big money at stakes in those championships.

I had a cousin who won school chess tournaments at district level years in a row, but he need to win that to advance to regionals so school pride is at stake.

[mathnerd]

I agree with the OP. Competition is also about losing gracefully when you are not the best. My little DS has been in competitions since he was 4 years old. Not because of us being pushy parents, but because when the coaches announce an upcoming competition, my child puts up his hand and aks to participate and begs me to take him and will happily do extra chores (his suggestion!) so that he gets the chance to go. He won 7th place in an Art competition of under 12 year olds when he was 4 yrs old, won 2nd place in a sport competition for 8 year olds at 5 and won 1st place in that same competition competing with 10 year olds at 6. He was thrilled by all those wins, but a lot of parents complained that my DS should be disqualified from the sport competition because he was too small to participate with their 10 year olds (when he won first place). The competition organisers refused to listen to those parents and appreciated my DS for doing so well. But, I was left with an unwelcome feeling from all those parents.

This does not mean that we take him to competitions only when he wins - he has participated in monthly chess tournaments at our local chess club for a year and has lost every time. He still loves to go and we still take him to those chess tournaments because it gives him some idea of what the best in chess look like, the spirit to handle failure like a sportsman and a chance for him to hang out with like minded peers.

OP, I am glad that your child would be a "special guest" at this event. It is an honor chosen only for performers that are way out of league of all the participants (my child's piano recital had a Carnegie Hall performer as a special guest). So, your daughet gets affirmation right there that she is already a winner! And I would advise you to find other competitions even if you have to travel farther so that you don't have a dependency on this crowd of complainers.

Good luck.

[Dmmetler]

I will say that sometimes I get frustrated at contest organizers. They don't set up the competition so that it's possible for kids to move up to a higher division/category by structuring it based on age/grade-but then complain that kids dominate in their age group. That's where my DD is in spelling bee. Unless someone moves in who is in her grade level and is also a natural speller who reads SAT vocabulary books for fun, I can't see her getting much competition until she's in middle school and allowed to move on to higher levels of competition. But they won't let her move up, either. So DD either has to sit out of something she loves doing, so that other kids won't lose to her each year (and miss the practice that will help her in higher levels of competition, because being able to spell orally in a bee format with an audience is a different skill than doing so at home)-or end up not challenged each year. I'd be fine if they let her compete with the 6th-8th graders, but said that they were going to send the top X middle school students on  because DD will have her chance in a few years. But so far, they're not willing to do that.

 

I've got about another month before this year's fight begins. Meanwhile, I'm trying to set up a "just for fun" bee for anyone who is good at spelling, including teens and adults, but also including kids like DD. I know we have a few kids who competed in regionals each year of middle school (and sometimes beyond) who would both enjoy it and would give the prospective spelling bee participants a challenge.

 

 

[MinivanMom]

I was wondering how others with "accelerated" kids feel about competition. Would you not have your child compete if there was someone else who was much better than them (not in their league, so to speak)? Would you be annoyed if other people didn't want your child to compete because they were really good?

 

I agree with what you are saying about competitions.  I think my children gain something by not always being the best.  I would never tell my child not to compete just because there was someone who was much better than them.  The other parents are behaving very poorly. 

 

However . . .

 

*gently*  It doesn't sound like *you* believe this.  If your daughter is that much better than the other participants, then what is she gaining from the experience of beating the same participants year after year?  Why do you still want her to compete in this particular competition?  It sounds like you want other people to be happy teaching their children to lose cheerfully, while you are content to let your daughter trounce children who aren't even in her league.  You aren't really walking the walk, you know.  If you really believed in the importance of genuine competition and learning to handle losses, then you would have been looking for a higher level competition for your daughter a long time ago. 

 

My thought is that you are doing your daughter a disservice by having her continue to be involved in this competition.  I think it's a great idea for your daughter to be a special guest performer instead of a competitor.  I also think that if it were my daughter, I would be looking for a national or international competition where she could be thoroughly trounced.  There is always going to be someone out there who is better than you.  I think that's a good lesson to learn gently while you are young.  It's a much harder lesson to learn as a teenager or young adult.  I would hate for that first taste of defeat to be so unexpected or to cause so much frustration and disappointment that my child gave up on their instrument (or area of academic interest) altogether.

[MinivanMom]

I will say that sometimes I get frustrated at contest organizers. They don't set up the competition so that it's possible for kids to move up to a higher division/category by structuring it based on age/grade-but then complain that kids dominate in their age group. That's where my DD is in spelling bee. Unless someone moves in who is in her grade level and is also a natural speller who reads SAT vocabulary books for fun, I can't see her getting much competition until she's in middle school and allowed to move on to higher levels of competition. But they won't let her move up, either. So DD either has to sit out of something she loves doing, so that other kids won't lose to her each year (and miss the practice that will help her in higher levels of competition, because being able to spell orally in a bee format with an audience is a different skill than doing so at home)-or end up not challenged each year. I'd be fine if they let her compete with the 6th-8th graders, but said that they were going to send the top X middle school students on  because DD will have her chance in a few years. But so far, they're not willing to do that.

 

I've got about another month before this year's fight begins. Meanwhile, I'm trying to set up a "just for fun" bee for anyone who is good at spelling, including teens and adults, but also including kids like DD. I know we have a few kids who competed in regionals each year of middle school (and sometimes beyond) who would both enjoy it and would give the prospective spelling bee participants a challenge.

 

I completely agree.  Our local spelling bee (which is through our local homeschool group and theoretically leads to Scripps) does not put those kinds of limitations on the kids.  Last year our winner was a 4th grader (who thoroughly trounced the middle schoolers).  He went onto the regional bee where he came in 7th.  I really wish there were more academic competitions that allowed children to move up from local to regional to national levels, and I wish more competitions were based on academic level/ability rather than age or grade level.

[Donna]

 

My thought is that you are doing your daughter a disservice by having her continue to be involved in this competition.  I think it's a great idea for your daughter to be a special guest performer instead of a competitor.  I also think that if it were my daughter, I would be looking for a national or international competition where she could be thoroughly trounced.  There is always going to be someone out there who is better than you.  I think that's a good lesson to learn gently while you are young.  It's a much harder lesson to learn as a teenager or young adult.  I would hate for that first taste of defeat to be so unexpected or to cause so much frustration and disappointment that my child gave up on their instrument (or area of academic interest) altogether.

 

There are not that many competitions for what my dd does, especially not local ones. She has done the only two and one of those we already decided not to do this year. She has pretty much moved on to performing at festivals when she can but she likes to go to this competition specifically because her friends are there and she enjoys hanging out with them afterward. She is fine with performing and probably would have been fine with just going to hang out and not performing except that they had told her last year she could move up and the prize was rather significant in the higher age group....she is saving up for a really nice full size fiddle.

 

Yeah, um, about moving on to national and international competitions for this....she has won the national qualifier for the last 5 years (started winning in the under 12 age group when she was 6) and last year tied for 1st then took 2nd after a recall at the "world championships." This year she took 1st at the "world championships" in Ireland in her favorite category and also in the category she signed up for just because she'd be there. There really isn't anywhere to take her where someone else will "trounce" her in this at this point.

 

Prior to last year, I took her to Ireland for 3 years when she was the youngest competitor by far and when there was no way she'd place because I thought there were other benefits to competing. Besides the benefits I listed in my OP, she learned what it was like to not win and how to do so gracefully and made friends with many of the kids who placed when she didn't. 

 

She could do another genre of music. She has done certain auditions in classical music and not been selected so she has her moments of not "winning," too. 

[MinivanMom]

There are not that many competitions for what my dd does, especially not local ones. She has done the only two and one of those we already decided not to do this year. She has pretty much moved on to performing at festivals when she can but she likes to go to this competition specifically because her friends are there and she enjoys hanging out with them afterward. She is fine with performing and probably would have been fine with just going to hang out and not performing except that they had told her last year she could move up and the prize was rather significant in the higher age group....she is saving up for a really nice full size fiddle.

 

Yeah, um, about moving on to national and international competitions for this....she has won the national qualifier for the last 5 years (started winning in the under 12 age group when she was 6) and last year tied for 1st then took 2nd after a recall at the "world championships." This year she took 1st at the "world championships" in Ireland in her favorite category and also in the category she signed up for just because she'd be there. There really isn't anywhere to take her where someone else will "trounce" her in this at this point.

 

Prior to last year, I took her to Ireland for 3 years when she was the youngest competitor by far and when there was no way she'd place because I thought there were other benefits to competing. Besides the benefits I listed in my OP, she learned what it was like to not win and how to do so gracefully and made friends with many of the kids who placed when she didn't. 

 

She could do another genre of music. She has done certain auditions in classical music and not been selected so she has her moments of not "winning," too. 

 

Gotcha!  That's a tough situation.  I think the challenging thing about performing at that level becomes the $$$.  Most people don't have limitless funds to travel to international competitions.  I think you just have to accept the offer to be the guest performer at the local competition and then travel to more challenging competitions when you can.  What are your daughter's long-term goals?  Have you considered looking for a professional or a master teacher who could mentor her?  I think you may want to let go of the focus on competitions and focus on figuring out how you can open doors for your daughter professionally instead.  Your money might be best spent sending her to a specialty music camp in the summer or commuting once-a-month to a master teacher.  Depending on the instrument those opportunities can be challenging to find, but they may be more valuable in the end.

[Donna]

Gotcha!  That's a tough situation.  I think the challenging thing about performing at that level becomes the $$$.  Most people don't have limitless funds to travel to international competitions.  I think you just have to accept the offer to be the guest performer at the local competition and then travel to more challenging competitions when you can.  What are your daughter's long-term goals?  Have you considered looking for a professional or a master teacher who could mentor her?  I think you may want to let go of the focus on competitions and focus on figuring out how you can open doors for your daughter professionally instead.  Your money might be best spent sending her to a specialty music camp in the summer or commuting once-a-month to a master teacher.  Depending on the instrument those opportunities can be challenging to find, but they may be more valuable in the end.

 

One of her long term goals right now is to perform this type of music as a professional but she's 11, that could change and she's kinda already met that goal on a smaller scale. I am not upset at the offer for her to be a guest performer. I was hoping they would offer it instead of her competing this year.

 

This one competition has a monetary prize ($300 for the higher age division) which was why she wanted to do it. The money from the two small competitions and gigs are the only way for her to be able to do the things like specialty music camps in the summer and travel for international competitions...this festival will pay her to perform so she isn't missing out though I doubt highly it will be as much as she would have gotten for winning the upper age division.

 

She doesn't do the "competition" circuit like you might think...in a year she does this competition, another small one (which we had already decided against this year), the qualifier for Ireland (which she has to do to get to go to Ireland), and Ireland (the world championships). It doesn't cost us anything to do this particular festival except a $10 registration fee and gas to get there (and we carpool with another family). The costly one is Ireland.

 

She has the best teacher for this type of music (probably in the country but certainly for her) who teaches kids internationally through Skype because he is so well respected. Certainly the highest level teacher available in this type of music. We travel 3 hours each way twice a month for lessons and if we are unable to go, she does lessons with him through Skype. She is also lucky enough to have a number of other professional musicians who invite her to play with them and mentor her regularly. She has a lot of great opportunities to travel and perform and has met some wonderful people...the difficulty lies in finding her ways to interact with other kids who enjoy the same kind of music and this one competition gave her that. There is a small group of kids who have "grown up" together but now that they are getting older (most are now in high school) they see each other less and less because the others have different interests and abilities but this festival is central to them all (though 1.5 hours away for us) so they all attend and hang out for the day.

 

She attends Celtic music camp in the summer, workshops throughout the year, and every year we travel to Ireland for the international competition which is also a festival with a lot of live music and sessions...days of music immersion. She is also traveling to attend a camp next month. She doesn't get much out of the camps as far as classes go (maybe a new tune or two)...but she enjoys going to play the sessions at night and the camp next month is in AZ and has a lot of side trips like hikes in the desert and an observatory with an astronomer. 

[Barbara H]

One of her long term goals right now is to perform this type of music as a professional but she's 11, that could change and she's kinda already met that goal on a smaller scale. I am not upset at the offer for her to be a guest performer. I was hoping they would offer it instead of her competing this year.

 

 

I just listened to a couple of videos on your blog and WOW - she's very talented. I just wanted to stay I really enjoyed her music.

 

[Uff Da!]

Editing because I missed the above post!

 

If it were not for the money, I would say being a guest performer is an honor.  However, since there is a monetary prize then I think they need to let all kids have a shot at it and not limit the competition. Perhaps they need to add another level, change the divisions from age to accomplishment level or something along those lines. She is being penalized for being good.  Is that the message they want to send to the other children, that if they play too well they will be banned from the competition?

[SKL]

I have heard of competitions where last year's winner is not allowed to compete this year.  That seems reasonable to me. 

 

If she's winning every year and fully expected to win again, is it really a competition for her?  If there's really no competition in her league, how is it any different to let her participate as a special guest?

 

Personally I don't even look into competitions because I don't have any evidence that they are positive for my individual kids.  Not saying anything about those of you who have kids who thrive on competition.  And I might feel differently as my kids get older and express their own feelings about it.  But no, I would not make an effort to enroll my kids in a competition they were certain to lose.  Especially not for multiple years in a row.

 

I mean, would you put an average-height child into a "tallest kid" contest?  If the top spot is completely unattainable, it's not a real competition.  And there are better ways for us to use our time/resources.

[Crimson Wife]

I would not make an effort to enroll my kids in a competition they were certain to lose.  Especially not for multiple years in a row.

So many things come easily to my DD that I personally feel it's very important life lesson for her to get her backside kicked from time to time. I saw so many of my college classmates crumble psychologically because it was the first time in their lives where they were not the best. They couldn't handle going from a big fish in a small pond to a small fish in a big pond. The campus counseling center was full of students who were suicidal, struggling with an eating disorder or substance abuse, etc., etc. in a large part because their self-identity had been built around being #1 and they were not able to cope with being surrounded by people equally or more talented.

 

That's not what I want for my kids, so I deliberately expose them to competitions where they are almost certain to lose so that they can learn to cope with it when the stakes are relatively low.

[SKL]

So many things come easily to my DD that I personally feel it's very important life lesson for her to get her backside kicked from time to time. I saw so many of my college classmates crumble psychologically because it was the first time in their lives where they were not the best. They couldn't handle going from a big fish in a small pond to a small fish in a big pond. The campus counseling center was full of students who were suicidal, struggling with an eating disorder or substance abuse, etc., etc. in a large part because their self-identity had been built around being #1 and they were not able to cope with being surrounded by people equally or more talented.

 

That's not what I want for my kids, so I deliberately expose them to competitions where they are almost certain to lose so that they can learn to cope with it when the stakes are relatively low.

 

Neither of my kids has it so easy that they do not know failure or hard work.  But I do see your point.  Still, one would hope to at least be somewhere in the same league as the other contestants.  If the world champion is one of the competitors, that is a clear message to me that I need not apply (unless I was also competing at the world-class level).

[Dmmetler]

So many things come easily to my DD that I personally feel it's very important life lesson for her to get her backside kicked from time to time. I saw so many of my college classmates crumble psychologically because it was the first time in their lives where they were not the best. They couldn't handle going from a big fish in a small pond to a small fish in a big pond. The campus counseling center was full of students who were suicidal, struggling with an eating disorder or substance abuse, etc., etc. in a large part because their self-identity had been built around being #1 and they were not able to cope with being surrounded by people equally or more talented.

 

That's not what I want for my kids, so I deliberately expose them to competitions where they are almost certain to lose so that they can learn to cope with it when the stakes are relatively low.

And can learn that just going out there and trying with other strong competitors is rewarding and that there is something to learn from other strong competitors. College, and life, isn't usually a "one person wins, and the rest lose" situation. If you can't learn from others who are as strong or stronger than you are without seeing yourself as failing because you're not the best, you're going to be pretty miserable.

 

I do think personality makes a difference.

[Dmmetler]

Neither of my kids has it so easy that they do not know failure or hard work.  But I do see your point.  Still, one would hope to at least be somewhere in the same league as the other contestants.  If the world champion is one of the competitors, that is a clear message to me that I need not apply (unless I was also competing at the world-class level).

 

I did a competition every year from 7th grade until I moved on from high school that I knew, going in, that I was going to lose.  The judges weren't familiar enough with my instrument to judge my playing fairly.

 

The reason why I did it was a) it was fun to be with other strong music students, those planning to major in music, those doing serious competitions

b) the critiques were helpful in actual competitions and performances later that year, because sometimes someone who is musically quite astute but who doesn't know the instrument will make suggestions that someone who knows the instrument would never make-and that end up being very, very useful indeed in improving the performance.

 

and

 

c) it was sponsored by a local civic group who's mostly elderly male population looked downright pained after about the 3rd pianist came up, but who were all smiles when I came up because it was DIFFERENT and who obviously were enjoying and responding to the performance.

 

Sometimes, a smile is more valuable than any certificate or trophy.

[SKL]

When I want my kids to be inspired by someone who is way better than they can hope to be in this decade, we buy tickets to a performance.

 

I'm not about sheltering my kids, but they have enough opportunities for disappointment without my artificially setting them up to fail.  If they needed or wanted that, it would be different.  But I suspect that the folks considering dropping out of the contest the OP is talking about are not kids who have been sheltered from disappointment; just ordinary kids who would prefer to compete in a "possible" contest.

[SKL]

I did a competition every year from 7th grade until I moved on from high school that I knew, going in, that I was going to lose.  The judges weren't familiar enough with my instrument to judge my playing fairly.

 

The reason why I did it was a) it was fun to be with other strong music students, those planning to major in music, those doing serious competitions

B) the critiques were helpful in actual competitions and performances later that year, because sometimes someone who is musically quite astute but who doesn't know the instrument will make suggestions that someone who knows the instrument would never make-and that end up being very, very useful indeed in improving the performance.

 

and

 

c) it was sponsored by a local civic group who's mostly elderly male population looked downright pained after about the 3rd pianist came up, but who were all smiles when I came up because it was DIFFERENT and who obviously were enjoying and responding to the performance.

 

Sometimes, a smile is more valuable than any certificate or trophy.

 

That was your choice.  I'm glad it was fun for you.  I would not demand it of every child, though.

 

[Arcadia]

 But I suspect that the folks considering dropping out of the contest the OP is talking about are not kids who have been sheltered from disappointment; just ordinary kids who would prefer to compete in a "possible" contest.

:iagree:

 

And can learn that just going out there and trying with other strong competitors is rewarding and that there is something to learn from other strong competitors.

But it gets boring losing three years in a row to the same kid who is totally out of your league.  Then it becomes a competition where everyone else is competing for 2nd place because the 1st place is out of reach.

[Uff Da!]

There was a documentary on Netflix about children in ballet and the competitions. They had first, second and third place I believe but also an award for the child with "the most potential". It would be a way for competitions like this to reward a child who is beyond the others without penalizing anyone.

[MinivanMom]

There was a documentary on Netflix about children in ballet and the competitions. They had first, second and third place I believe but also an award for the child with "the most potential". It would be a way for competitions like this to reward a child who is beyond the others without penalizing anyone.

 

Are you talking about First Position - the documentary about Youth American Grand Prix?  Dd9 & I just watched that recently and it was wonderful!  There was actually a boy at dd's ballet school (now dancing professionally) who won the Silver Medal in his division a few years back.  The ballet school made a huge deal about it and there was even an article about him in the local paper, but I had no idea how big a deal it was until I watched the documentary.  I think it's fabulous that they have a "most potential" category. 

 

I agree that there should be a way for local competitions to recognize a child whose abilities are at a national/international champion level, while still encouraging those who aren't on that level.  It's a very hard balance to find.  I like the idea of a "most potential" award in additional to 1st, 2nd, & 3rd.  I also like the policy of only being allowed to win the national title once (like Scripps Spelling Bee's policy), so that one child can't dominate for multiple years.  Yes, you are the national champion and extra admiration if you won the title at a young age, but in a competition for children it's good to give other highly talented children a chance to win.

[MinivanMom]

When I want my kids to be inspired by someone who is way better than they can hope to be in this decade, we buy tickets to a performance.

 

I'm not about sheltering my kids, but they have enough opportunities for disappointment without my artificially setting them up to fail.  If they needed or wanted that, it would be different.  But I suspect that the folks considering dropping out of the contest the OP is talking about are not kids who have been sheltered from disappointment; just ordinary kids who would prefer to compete in a "possible" contest.

 

I disagree.  I think that if my children only see high-level performance as something that adult professionals do, then it is hard for them to see how they progress from being a child hobbyist to becoming an adult professional.  It has been a wonderful experience for my children to see other children performing at a high level.  It inspires and challenges them.  I don't think this necessarily has to come in the form of "competition" either.  My daughter has performed in the same end-of-year ballet recital as the young man I referenced in my previous post (who won the silver medal at YAGP & is now a professional ballet dancer).  His performances were breathtaking and they gave us a lot to discuss.  We talked about natural talent and the luck of having a good dancer's body.  We talked about the years of training and hard work.  We have talked about his choice to remain at home to finish high school after his YAGP win (he was offered professional contracts when he was only 15).  We have talked about his choice now to join a professional company and put off college.  These have all been very valuable discussions and my daughter definitely has a much better idea about what it takes to become a professional.  Watching a fellow student achieve at that level has been inspiring in a way that attending a professional ballet performance could never be.

[Crimson Wife]

But it gets boring losing three years in a row to the same kid who is totally out of your league.  Then it becomes a competition where everyone else is competing for 2nd place because the 1st place is out of reach.

Then it is YOUR job as a parent to convey to the child that while winning is fun, what truly matters is challenging oneself to improve. If you don't truly believe that is the case, then I'd suggest you need to reevaluate why you're entering your child in the competition in the first place (bragging rights perhaps?)

[SKL]

I disagree.  I think that if my children only see high-level performance as something that adult professionals do, then it is hard for them to see how they progress from being a child hobbyist to becoming an adult professional.  It has been a wonderful experience for my children to see other children performing at a high level.  It inspires and challenges them.  I don't think this necessarily has to come in the form of "competition" either.  My daughter has performed in the same end-of-year ballet recital as the young man I referenced in my previous post (who won the silver medal at YAGP & is now a professional ballet dancer at ABT).  His performances were breathtaking and they gave us a lot to discuss.  We talked about natural talent and the luck of having a good dancer's body.  We talked about the years of training and hard work.  We have talked about his choice to remain at home to finish high school after his YAGP win (he was offered professional contracts when he was only 15).  We have talked about his choice now to join a professional company and put off college.  These have all been very valuable discussions and my daughter definitely has a much better idea about what it takes to become a professional.  Watching a fellow student achieve at that level has been inspiring in a way that attending a professional ballet performance could never be.

 

I didn't say that I only take my kids to adult performances.  They have seen many talented children perform.  We often go to local theatres etc. that use kids in their productions.  My point is that we can see what's possible and get inspired without being in competition with people who are out of our league.

 

[SKL]

Then it is YOUR job as a parent to convey to the child that while winning is fun, what truly matters is challenging oneself to improve. If you don't truly believe that is the case, then I'd suggest you need to reevaluate why you're entering your child in the competition in the first place (bragging rights perhaps?)

 

I don't think the issue here is about some kids not being the best, as much as the same kid blowing the contest away year after year after year.  Nobody is saying she should not have ever been allowed to compete, either; just that a whole generation shouldn't have to go by before some other kid gets a realistic chance to win.

 

If I know for sure I have no hope of winning a contest, I'm not going to take my participation seriously even if I do enter.  The fact that there is no chance takes away the whole "challenging oneself to improve" aspect of the experience.

[maize]

It sounds like your daughter truly is in a different league from the other competitors. In that context having her perform as a guest artist makes much more sense than having her compete. I believe competition is only meaningful when the various competitors are within a similar ability band. It would not, for example, make sense for an NBA team to compete in a high school basketball league, no matter how much their competitors might learn from and be inspired by the competition.

 

I will say that as the mother of an aspiring young fiddler (who is far, far from your daughter's league) I find you and your daughter very inspirational.

[Greenmama2]

The prize money really does change everything I think about this situation. Were it not for that, I would think that performing as a guest artist would be a perfect solution. However if there is prize money involved it seems to me that your DD has as much right to compete for it as anyone else. I'd be upset too.

[Donna]

The prize money really does change everything I think about this situation. Were it not for that, I would think that performing as a guest artist would be a perfect solution. However if there is prize money involved it seems to me that your DD has as much right to compete for it as anyone else. I'd be upset too.

 

I am not upset about the prize money, though it was one of our main reasons for participating (not bragging rights...it's a silly little local competition). I wasn't asking whether people think my daughter should be allowed to compete or just be happy being a guest performer. We are glad they asked her to do that instead of competing.

 

I wanted to discuss the attitude of the complaining parents. I don't understand it, personally. I was trying to understand the mindset where people think their child must win something or have a chance to win something in order to compete in it. I have never limited what my kids do competition-wise based on whether or not they might win.

 

I have taken my dd to Ireland to compete when she was way younger than the other competitors (and on a 1/10 or 1/8 size fiddle while they were all playing full size fiddles), knowing she would not win but that she would enjoy the experience, be immersed in the music she loves, and meet others who share her interest. I didn't think the others would be way out of her league so why bother. It gave her something to strive for and work for and let her know what else is out there which was important when she was winning here in the US so easily. I didn't want her to have the big fish in a small pond issues.

 

My oldest wrestles and when he was young, every other year, almost every competition he went to there was a boy (a year older) who was a national champion. These were little local competitions with no other reason for the boy to compete other than practice and maybe bragging rights (they weren't qualifiers for a larger tournament or anything). Whenever we looked at the board and saw this boy was in his weight class, we knew he'd have a "tough" match and my son would take 2nd or 3rd place or not place at all depending on where he met this boy during the day...and got his butt cleanly handed to him. We never thought he should not compete in these events because the boy was in another league and ds would not take 1st. (There are other places than 1st and competitions have other benefits.) My ds knew this boy worked harder and practiced more (and though this would not occur to my son, probably had a genetic advantage with strength and/or quick reaction times and earlier gross motor development)... so he never thought it was unfair that he lost to him. All he thought was "it makes sense that someone who works harder should win" and it made him work harder until years later my son, though he never beat this boy, was able to give him more competition in a match rather than getting pinned quickly or losing by tech fall.

 

Someone mentioned it was like putting a short kid into a "tallest kid" contest but it isn't like that at all. There is a chance for other kids to work like my dd works to get better...height is something you cannot have a direct influence on by hard work.

[Uff Da!]

Are you talking about First Position - the documentary about Youth American Grand Prix?  Dd9 & I just watched that recently and it was wonderful!  There was actually a boy at dd's ballet school (now dancing professionally w/ABT) who won the Silver Medal in his division a few years back.  The ballet school made a huge deal about it and there was even an article about him in the local paper, but I had no idea how big a deal it was until I watched the documentary.  I think it's fabulous that they have a "most potential" category. 

 

 

Yes!  I couldn't remember the name of the documentary but loved watching it. 

[SKL]

I wanted to discuss the attitude of the complaining parents. I don't understand it, personally. I was trying to understand the mindset where people think their child must win something or have a chance to win something in order to compete in it. I have never limited what my kids do competition-wise based on whether or not they might win.

 

...

 

My oldest wrestles and when he was young, every other year, almost every competition he went to there was a boy (a year older) who was a national champion. ...

 

Someone mentioned it was like putting a short kid into a "tallest kid" contest but it isn't like that at all. There is a chance for other kids to work like my dd works to get better...height is something you cannot have a direct influence on by hard work.

 

1) Not every parent has an appetite for competition to the extent that you / your family does.

 

2) In your wrestling example you say "every other year" - that would be much more reasonable than every year, don't you think?

 

3) When you're talking about someone who got 1st place internationally, that's a lot more than short-term hard work.  Even ignoring innate talent, every kid who signs up for the contest can't change the fact that s/he hasn't been playing violin since toddlerhood, doesn't live in a very musical family, hasn't had the past experiences of competing and traveling that your daughter has had.  So yes, I do think it's like the tallest kid contest.  It's like penalizing average kids because they can't go back and change the type of nutrition and sleep they've gotten all their lives, as well as their genes.  Your daughter would have to be sleeping to lose that contest.  Hard work is how she wins the high-level contests, not the local amateur ones.

[Donna]

1) Not every parent has an appetite for competition to the extent that you / your family does.

 

2) In your wrestling example you say "every other year" - that would be much more reasonable than every year, don't you think?

 

3) When you're talking about someone who got 1st place internationally, that's a lot more than short-term hard work.  Even ignoring innate talent, every kid who signs up for the contest can't change the fact that s/he hasn't been playing violin since toddlerhood, doesn't live in a very musical family, hasn't had the past experiences of competing and traveling that your daughter has had.  So yes, I do think it's like the tallest kid contest.  It's like penalizing average kids because they can't go back and change the type of nutrition and sleep they've gotten all their lives, as well as their genes.  Your daughter would have to be sleeping to lose that contest.  Hard work is how she wins the high-level contests, not the local amateur ones.

 

1. True, not every parent or family is into competitions but if they are there, wouldn't you say they are "into" that competition. I am not talking about people who do not allow their kids to compete at all. There may be other competitions these same people do....it is all Celtic music, not just the Irish music my dd does so there may be other local Scottish or other competitions I know nothing about.

 

2. If my ds had been a year older, it would have been every year and he would have still competed....plenty of kids compete year after year without winning or even coming close to winning. He didn't always place 1st even on those off years. There were a group of kids around his level who tended to take turns winning on those years. 

 

3. What would you say about a child who doesn't place internationally or even nationally? 

 

My dd's older friend does this same competition. Before my dd started doing it, he took 1st for 2 years, took 2nd when against my dd, then when he moved up to the older age group (a year early) he took 1st again. He is competing again this year...there is a significant monetary award. He plays well...not "knock your socks off" but he's a solid player. Should he not be allowed to compete because he wins? Or is it okay that he competes because he doesn't win higher level competitions every year? I could see if the competition stated those who won before are not allowed to enter but this is a very small competition and if they did that, they would eventually have very few competitors or/and have kids who play very poorly winning...and no one wanting to come watch except their parents. They also clearly state in their rules that people who earn money for their playing are welcome. 

 

It isn't penalizing anyone. It is just life...some people are better at things and/or have advantages. If it is a competition, people win and a larger number of people lose just like any other competition.  Should a gifted child stay out of chess competitions or writing competitions or reading competitions or math competitions because they have a genetic advantage and started learning more quickly and at a higher level than other children? What if those competitions involve a monetary award? Should athletically gifted people not compete in their sport because they have an advantage? (I know someone who went on to swim at a national level, narrowly missed the Olympic team while in college, but still swam for his high school swim team because it was extra free pool time. I also know many nationally ranked (and an Olympic gold medalist) wrestlers who compete on high school teams. What about the young man from the town near us who played on his high school baseball team and was drafted right from high school to the major leagues and ended up as rookie of the year? Should he have been competing against other high school baseball players, many of whom would never even make it on college teams? I don't think his coach or high school team mates were complaining.)

[SKL]

Well, you asked where the parents might be coming from, and I think you've received a fair amount of feedback.  You don't have to agree with any of it.  We are all different.  Our kids are all different.  It's up to you whether you want to associate with people who want a competition to contain some chance of winning.

[SKL]

Here's another thought.  In the spirit of competing without a chance of winning, why not have your daughter compete using an instrument she has never played before?

[Arcadia]

 They also clearly state in their rules that people who earn money for their playing are welcome. 

Then it is the organizer's fault.  

Honestly no one in my family is interested in competitions except as spectators. I had been team lead in inter-school competitions because my school principal asked me to (like I said, school pride at stake).  

I was just answering your question about why some parents might choose to opt out if the same person wins the 1st place a few years in a row. If we are talking about 10-11 year olds, some kids themselves may be the ones choosing to opt out.  I have a 9 year old girl neighbor who opt out of a local competition because she thinks she is not good enough, it is her choice and she is happy competing in something else. I don't expect her mum to push her to enter just to experience losing.

[MinivanMom]

I wanted to discuss the attitude of the complaining parents. I don't understand it, personally. I was trying to understand the mindset where people think their child must win something or have a chance to win something in order to compete in it. I have never limited what my kids do competition-wise based on whether or not they might win.

 

I completely get where you were coming from and I definitely share your attitude about competitions.  I think some of the responses here can give you an idea of why parents are complaining and what their thought process may be.  I think it's always good to remember that it's highly unlikely that every parent has complained or that every parent has a problem with her competing.  I bet some will be surprised to learn that she's been asked to no longer compete.  You may want to be prepared for a few awkward questions when the competition rolls around and she is listed as a guest performer.

 

I agree with your pov, but I think the issue is that the younger competitors haven't developed to the point that they have this pov.  Many of them really aren't there intellectually or emotionally, and consequently being forced to compete with a pro will cause them to exit the field, slinking away in shame.  The parents probably view your child as a 'ringer', and would rather have the competition be a true competition instead of a match decided ahead of time. It would be better for all if the organizers of the competition would just state that it is for amateurs, or people working at a certain level.

 

I don't know.  The op's daughter is 11 - that's middle school age.  I think it might be a hard thing to grasp for some elementary age children, but I think your average middle schooler should be there at this point.  The op said her daughter had previously been asked to compete in a higher age division, so I believe she's been competing against teenagers who are older than her. 

 

Here's another thought.  In the spirit of competing without a chance of winning, why not have your daughter compete using an instrument she has never played before?

 

What?!!!  Clearly you have an issue with competitions in general.  That is a completely valid point of view, but it doesn't have anything to do with the op's original question, which was . . .

 

Why would parents who like competitions and choose to enroll their children in competitions decide to complain to the organizers that they are going to quit if the reigning champion continues to compete? 

[SKL]

What?!!!  Clearly you have an issue with competitions in general.  That is a completely valid point of view, but it doesn't have anything to do with the op's original question, which was . . .

 

Why would parents who like competitions and choose to enroll their children in competitions decide to complain to the organizers that they are going to quit if the reigning champion continues to compete? 

 

Actually I thought it would be helpful for the OP to put herself in these parents' shoes for a moment and ask herself why she doesn't sign her child up for something she cannot win at this competition.  I think it is directly relevant and I also note that it's in line with the OP's stated philosophy.

[regentrude]

I don't get understand: what is the point of a competition if the best participants are excluded from competing?

It's like saying athletes who have won Olympic medals before are not allowed to go to the Olympic games because now it should be other athlete's turn. Or that the top math students may not participate in the math olympiad so that the others don't feel bad about not winning.

Makes no sense to me.

It seems to me one of the recurring situations where talented students are not allowed to take pride in their accomplishments... only in this country is "elite" a dirty word.

 

[mathwonk]

some of this discussion reminds me a little of my learning to play snooker well. in high school, i played this guy who was one of the best in the city, several times a day, every day for a year, losing every game. then i finally won one, on a hard bank shot. he complained bitterly about my "lucky shot", and did not want to play me any more. I then discovered i too had become one of the best players in town.

 

we also had a situation like the one in this thread at my uni, where a few professors always won the "best honors professor" award every year. so they created a higher category, for multiple repeat winners. instead of just excluding them from the competition they gave them a special permanent recognition that they had achieved another level of expertise above the usual, and then they felt good about it.

 

Of course then there were also larger venues to compete in, like state level, national level,...

 

it is very unusual for there to be truly no competition for someone at any level.

 

has everyone seen chariots of fire?

[Crimson Wife]

I don't think the issue here is about some kids not being the best, as much as the same kid blowing the contest away year after year after year.  Nobody is saying she should not have ever been allowed to compete, either; just that a whole generation shouldn't have to go by before some other kid gets a realistic chance to win.

 

If I know for sure I have no hope of winning a contest, I'm not going to take my participation seriously even if I do enter.  The fact that there is no chance takes away the whole "challenging oneself to improve" aspect of the experience.

I humbly suggest you read Carol Dweck's excellent book "Mindset" and think deeply about what she says in it regarding what she calls a "growth mindset".

[Crimson Wife]

I wanted to discuss the attitude of the complaining parents. I don't understand it, personally. I was trying to understand the mindset where people think their child must win something or have a chance to win something in order to compete in it. I have never limited what my kids do competition-wise based on whether or not they might win.

Because what they care about is the bragging rights (I wasn't directing that comment at you). Far too many parents today treat their children as status symbols like they were nothing more than a designer handbag [here's where the eye-rolling smiley would go if I could get the smileys working for me]

[Arcadia]

I don't get understand: what is the point of a competition if the best participants are excluded from competing?

 

They are "suppose" to move to the next higher level until they reach the highest.  For example. the district champ could compete at the county level, the county champ at state level, state champ at nationals and the national champs at the Olympiads (or equivalent).  This might be a regional thing though as my neighbors are talking about talent scouts at state events and potential scholarships.

 

we also had a situation like the one in this thread at my uni, where a few professors always won the "best honors professor" award every year. so they created a higher category, for multiple repeat winners. instead of just excluding them from the competition they gave them a special permanent recognition that they had achieved another level of expertise above the usual, and then they felt good about it.

 

Of course then there were also larger venues to compete in, like state level, national level,...

 

it is very unusual for there to be truly no competition for someone at any level.

 

has everyone seen chariots of fire?

That is a nice diplomatic way for your university to let others have a chance and at the same time acknowledge those that are in a league of their own.

 

Even a music prodigy would have international competitions to compete in.  I know there are cost involved but the competitions are there and some get sponsorships to cover competition costs.

 

For example this from 2012

"SALT LAKE CITY — 65 piano prodigies from 14 countries are now living in Salt Lake for the next two weeks to participate in the Gina Bachauer International Piano competitions. The competitions take place between some of the world's most talented 11- to 13-year-olds at the Rose Wagner Performing Arts Center.

Only one of them is a Utahn, and the rest are staying with gracious host families in the area."

 

I've watched Chariots of Fire when it was first released. I'm that old. I had even played the theme song for piano practice.

 

Maybe growing up in competitive Asia has made me apathetic to competition. I do enjoy watching formula one racing though which is now happening in my home country :)

 

ETA:

Maybe I should be thankful my kids inherited my apathy :lol:

 

ETA:

This competition might be less costly for the OP's daughter to compete in at the international level.

http://www.americanprotege.com/piano&strings.htm

 

"Sylvan Zhang, 9, a Westwood Elementary third-grader, seems shy. He speaks with his violin. His talent is unmistakable. Zhang competed in the 2012 American Protege International Piano and Strings Competition. And won. Zhang entered by submitting recorded performances of Bach’s Partida No. 3, First Movement and Bruch’s Concerto No. 1, First Movement. "

[Donna]

ETA:

This competition might be less costly for the OP's daughter to compete in at the international level.

http://www.americanprotege.com/piano&strings.htm

 

"Sylvan Zhang, 9, a Westwood Elementary third-grader, seems shy. He speaks with his violin. His talent is unmistakable. Zhang competed in the 2012 American Protege International Piano and Strings Competition. And won. Zhang entered by submitting recorded performances of Bach’s Partida No. 3, First Movement and Bruch’s Concerto No. 1, First Movement. "

 

I have looked into this competition last year when her classical teacher suggested she start doing classical competitions. She hasn't because she is not interested in doing classical music competitions though she did do a couple auditions for different events (even if she were I would not have her do this competition which is only a money-making venture for the company running it....did you see the application fee and then the winners have to pay to play in the "Winner's Recital" and if they can't afford the $300+ to participate in the Winner's Recital they are disqualified...what a racket!). She competes when she wants to compete and she prefers Irish music. Since most of her weekends are spent performing, she doesn't have time to do other competitions especially ones she isn't interested in.

[Donna]

Actually I thought it would be helpful for the OP to put herself in these parents' shoes for a moment and ask herself why she doesn't sign her child up for something she cannot win at this competition.  I think it is directly relevant and I also note that it's in line with the OP's stated philosophy.

 

I will sign her up for any competition she asks to participate in. She has competed in duos and trios with her brother or her friends. Sometimes they win and most of the time they don't (her trio took 2nd for the first time this past year at the qualifier...the year before they decided at 10pm the night before to sign up and compete together the following day so they worked on a couple tunes until midnight then competed the following morning). She has mentioned an interest in competing in singing and newly composed tunes next year for the Ireland qualifier and I will sign her up if she wants to when the time comes. She also picks up tin whistle and mandolin now and then but hasn't asked to compete in them. If she did ask, I'd sign her up. She doesn't have to win or even have a chance at winning.

 

I have been in the "other parent's shoes" (not had their attitude but have been the parent of the kid who isn't going to win) plenty of times not only with my dd but also with my boys. I have already told you about my oldest and his wrestling. My middle ds competes in accompaniment on guitar. He rarely places (took 2nd one year and competed 3 other years without placing) because the preferred accompaniment instrument in Irish music tends to be the piano (and the same piano playing boy takes 1st). Ds doesn't play piano and he doesn't play a "traditional" accompaniment on his guitar....he jazzes it up more. Many people think he sounds better and he thinks he sounds better but he knows it is not "competition worthy" and doesn't care enough about winning to change the way he plays. He competes because he is there with his family and friends and it gives him something to do, a chance to work on some tunes and polish them, and a chance to perform and get feedback from the judges.

[mathwonk]

As a little kid i felt i was often the best at lots of things (ok, not sprinting, not music, not basketball, not writing,...ok, you get the idea, I was a bit deluded), but I got somehow the impression the goal was to always be the best. then i went to a good college where I was nowhere near the best, and I tanked.

 

Some 10 years later, I realized I had no chance at achieving my dreams unless I acknowledged that even when I tried my very best I still might well not be the best. Indeed that fear had kept me from trying my best for a long time.

 

So I began to try as hard as I could, and I moved to another level; I became not more gifted, but much more accomplished. I was still not anything like what I had dreamed about, but much closer than i had been while simply fantasizing.

 

So Donna, what I suggest is this: ask your DD what she really wants to do. Then tell her honestly that she may not be the best at her goal, but support her in her attmept to reach it.

 

Please forgive my naive advice. By the way, I think you are doing a wonderful job!

[LaughingCat]

Personally I don't find it much fun to compete if I'm always going to win.   It is much more fun if I have to really put out my best - I would rather lose having put out my best than win without real effort.  

 

I do agree the whole money prize thing changes things though.  Since that is the next age bracket - perhaps the director spoke without thought (or ability to bend the rules that way) when s/he suggested that idea. 

[Donna]

Personally I don't find it much fun to compete if I'm always going to win.   It is much more fun if I have to really put out my best - I would rather lose having put out my best than win without real effort.  

 

I do agree the whole money prize thing changes things though.  Since that is the next age bracket - perhaps the director spoke without thought (or ability to bend the rules that way) when s/he suggested that idea. 

 

What if you put out your best effort no matter who you were competing against or whether or not you'd win easily?

 

What if that were your personality and you enjoyed what you were doing so much that you always did it to the best of your ability?

 

Why does the ability to win by a large margin have to include no "real effort"?

[Arcadia]

Why does the ability to win by a large margin have to include no "real effort"?

Unfortunately we (general) can't control what other people think. There are school awards I recieved like top in standard for math which I really put in no effort. Can't blame my school mates who saw me sleeping during class for saying I did it effortlessly. I also had classmates who are so competitve they can be verbally vicious when they lose. Then there are friends who envy for a day or two. I also have friends who tease me about winning but they are the ones who compete on beating their personal best in their sports instead of caring about competition and some are in nationals.

I have a friend who wanted to be a professional ballerina. She was upset as a teenager because the lead ballerina (same age) is very talented which means she never gets the lead. The talented girl does put in effort but the perception is that everyone had to put in a lot more practising hours to be near her standard. My friend is genuinely nice to the talented girl but she is still allowed to be human and be sad.

 

We do enjoy music by the "The Chieftains" by the way and my kids love Riverdance; both the music and dance.