Talking to your kids about their education. (AKA How to excel in the role of guidance counselor?)

[Alte Veste Academy]

I have had this very muddled question taking up space in my head for quite a while. My thoughts are convoluted, so I am going to heap them on the Hive in the hopes of processing them myself. I don't know the extent of what I'm asking, so I'll describe what prompted my thoughts on this.

 

Over the summer, I read and compared the 1999 and 2009 versions of the WTM. I also reread a few other homeschool books and many old threads I've bookmarked from the high school board. I read, took notes, looked up curricula, printed and read samples, etc., etc., etc... Basically I was evaluating, planning, and looking very thoughtfully at the long view. At some point (10th reading of WTM, maybe? :lol:), DS10 asked what I was doing. And I thought are you kidding me? You don't know what I'm doing? But then I realized that of course he doesn't, because I just keep that mess in my head.

 

To be clear, I do talk to my kids about their education. But now I'm thinking I do it in a childish, piddly way instead of a long-term partnership kind of way. I let them look at my (already culled) book lists and program options and let them have say. (And I actually think this is pretty good for now, but that I should be talking about why those are the options I have selected.) Anyway, to some extent, I let them help me plan what they are going to learn that day, week, month, and even school year. But beyond (broken record type) nagging about needing to work hard and some (I now realize) relatively worthless talk about honoring their future selves (could I get any more sappy?), I am not helping them develop a long view. Meanwhile, sometimes I am so focused on the long view that I am distracted away from the importance of the day-to-day grind and, apparently, discussions about what takes up so much of my head space. I can be very obtuse.

 

So anyway, that day when DS asked me what I was doing, I told him. He expressed interest, like I was revealing to him some secret truth I knew and he didn't: what all this homeschooling and his education are all about. I read him the opening and several sections of WTM. And he loved it. DD came in and listened and started asking questions, good questions. We had some lovely discussion and then started the school year...then went back to the same ol', same ol'. Then yesterday in the CM threads, I was dragging out my copy of When Children Love to Learn and the kids looked at my open book, riddled with underlining, stars, and (I kid you not :tongue_smilie:) happy-faced exclamation marks and asked me about that. I read some of that book to them and, once again, they loved it. Just ate it up. So, for the second time, I thought I am just screwing this up, this letting them know what motivates me and what affects them every day without them even knowing it, and how they could possibly take that information and gain from it...resolve maybe? a sense of purpose? a motivation and sense of direction and definition as they move into upper grades?

 

This is very rambly and probably makes no sense...and/or makes me sound crazy. :lol: Basically, I'm wondering how you talk to your kids about the long view (course work leading up to high school then to college, work ethic and habits that build success through the years, etc.). Then also, how do you personally balance and discuss what you know about the long view with the day-to-day work in your homeschool? That is a really poorly phrased question. I am aware of that. :lol: Maybe how do you make sure you keep talking about it. (And a note here, because I know you're out there... Telling me that these conversations just spring up naturally will not be helpful to me in the least, because apparently things are not working that way here or I wouldn't have this question to begin with. ;) )

 

I'm thinking about threads in which people discuss their kids wanting to be a, b, or c and knowing already that they want to go to college x, y, or z.. Yes, I know these will most likely change, but obviously there has been discussion about it in the home. My kids do talk about what they would like to be but it is kind of still very...magical? Like they have no idea what it means. And, yes, I know my kids are still young. I do not expect them to make a career or college choice at 10, 9, or 7. ;) But, I don't know. I'd like the conversations (with my oldest anyway) to start getting more practical, at least by upper middle school. I mean is it OK that he still says he wants to be a lifeguard/baseball player/scientist/architect/Lego designer (not to mention multi-billionaire :lol:)? I think it is OK...but at the same time, when does it go from magical to practical, and how? While I am not there quite yet, this whole planning for the high school--->college--->career trajectory thing is a few years away, and I do not want it sneaking up on me.

 

Before you put me through the wringer for too high expectations, I would like to say that I am coming at this as a pretty relaxed homeschooler who probably does not push my kids enough. Many times I get the feeling that they would benefit from more pushing, but it's not my nature, which is really weird because I pushed myself hard in school. My parents did not push at all though, so maybe I'm just following that model? Anyway, the point is that I am not a pusher, to the point where I wonder if it's a problem. Maybe my self-pushing in school came from being surrounded by competition (which my kids have little of in their lives). Maybe they actually need much more from me in this department. When kids are in school, they see those ahead of them and get a sense of a trajectory; they know what's coming. That's it, maybe! I feel like my kids have a very hazy view of what's coming? And of their options...and how their choices and work ethic affect their options.

 

Blah, blah, blah, much of this is a subject for another day, but my point is that advice to tell me to relax and don't push isn't what I want either, because I already don't push. I'm just looking to hear how you talk to your kids about their education, how you discuss and work toward long-term goals. And if you can relate to me, I'd love to hear that too. Or if you have older kids now but you could have related to me when yours were at my kids' ages. :D

 

Some specific points that have been on my mind...

 

- developing personal and educational goals, eventually with the kid taking the lead

 

- discussing/choosing a homeschool philosophy [ETA: really just thinking about our preferred ways to educate/self-educate]; getting buy-in; tweaking the philosophy [adjusting] together

 

- evaluating and working with strengths and weaknesses (DS10 and I have been working through Smart But Scattered together, win/win!)

 

- discussing and improving work ethic

 

- encouraging self-starting

 

- working on organization

 

- talking seriously about cause and effect (what we work on now builds skills for later, and how)

 

...and anything else you might like to add. (Please feel free to insert your own brand of crazy here! It will make me feel better! :lol:)

[quark]

To be clear, I do talk to my kids about their education. But now I'm thinking I do it in a childish, piddly way instead of a long-term partnership kind of way. I let them look at my (already culled) book lists and program options and let them have say. (And I actually think this is pretty good for now, but that I should be talking about why those are the options I have selected.) Anyway, to some extent, I let them help me plan what they are going to learn that day, week, month, and even school year. But beyond (broken record type) nagging about needing to work hard and some (I now realize) relatively worthless talk about honoring their future selves (could I get any more sappy?), I am not helping them develop a long view. Meanwhile, sometimes I am so focused on the long view that I am distracted away from the importance of the day-to-day grind and, apparently, discussions about what takes up so much of my head space. I can be very obtuse.

 

I agree with explaining why. That's something I've done since DS was in first grade. I should have started earlier I think but I was just too burned out then trying to make WTM work for us while also figuring out the whole homeschooing an extrovert only child thing. I think you can start anytime though. Consistently if possible. I explain the "why"s of the materials and the schedule as well as the "how"s of doing what we are doing. I ask what else we can do. But the power to say No to something still lies with him. He knows I will honor it.

 

Not obtuse at all. I have a hard time juggling an only. I can't imagine how I would have juggled two or more kids. Especially with all the constant subconscious thinking I'm always doing about homeschooling and what we are going to do to prep him for college. I can't imagine doing that for one kid then switching gears and doing it for another kid who might have totally different interests! Ack!

 

So anyway, that day when DS asked me what I was doing, I told him. He expressed interest, like I was revealing to him some secret truth I knew and he didn't: what all this homeschooling and his education are all about. I read him the opening and several sections of WTM. And he loved it. DD came in and listened and started asking questions, good questions. We had some lovely discussion and then started the school year...then went back to the same ol', same ol'. Then yesterday in the CM threads, I was dragging out my copy of When Children Love to Learn and the kids looked at my open book, riddled with underlining, stars, and (I kid you not :tongue_smilie:) happy-faced exclamation marks and asked me about that. I read some of that book to them and, once again, they loved it. Just ate it up. So, for the second time, I thought I am just screwing this up, this letting them know what motivates me and what affects them every day without them even knowing it, and how they could possibly take that information and gain from it...resolve maybe? a sense of purpose? a motivation and sense of direction and definition as they move into upper grades?

 

This happened with us the other day when the CM/WTM thread inspired me to re-read CM's School Education. DS wanted to know what I was doing with the iPad and I explained CM's methods to him. He didn't lap it up lol but I think he was surprised that I refresh myself on these things. He sees me educating myself even at this age. I think this is also good because it gives them an idea of how much you care about them and their education. They may not realize it immediately but it might be a light bulb moment one day...oh, now I know why this is helpful, why mom suggested doing this and in this way sort of thing. One of the wonderful things about homeschooling you know...I never felt like my school teachers cared. There were one or two who took the time to explain the "why"s of what we were doing but mostly we just kept on chugging without any opportunity to take stock of why we were learning what we were learning. I like that I can avoid this error with my kiddo.

 

This is very rambly and probably makes no sense...and/or makes me sound crazy. :lol:

I'm probably rambling too but wanted to say I think I know what you mean. I might not be helping you out at all...but it will be something to read while someone with better ideas responds. :)

 

Basically, I'm wondering how you talk to your kids about the long view (course work leading up to high school then to college, work ethic and habits that build success through the years, etc.). Then also, how do you personally balance and discuss what you know about the long view with the day-to-day work in your homeschool? That is a really poorly phrased question. I am aware of that. :lol: Maybe how do you make sure you keep talking about it. (And a note here, because I know you're out there... Telling me that these conversations just spring up naturally will not be helpful to me in the least, because apparently things are not working that way here or I wouldn't have this question to begin with. ;) )

 

I'm thinking about threads in which people discuss their kids wanting to be a, b, or c and knowing already that they want to go to college x, y, or z.. Yes, I know these will most likely change, but obviously there has been discussion about it in the home. My kids do talk about what they would like to be but it is kind of still very...magical? Like they have no idea what it means. And, yes, I know my kids are still young. I do not expect them to make a career or college choice at 10, 9, or 7. ;) But, I don't know. I'd like the conversations (with my oldest anyway) to start getting more practical, at least by upper middle school. I mean is it OK that he still says he wants to be a lifeguard/baseball player/scientist/architect/Lego designer (not to mention multi-billionaire :lol:)? I think it is OK...but at the same time, when does it go from magical to practical, and how? While I am not there quite yet, this whole planning for the high school--->college--->career trajectory thing is a few years away, and I do not want it sneaking up on me.

 

I think I only really started talking to him about it in 4th grade (ETA: I would bring it up as part of the conversation we were having about studying this or that topic in math). That was when a number of things clicked for me as well. I was more comfortable with the eclectic direction our homeschool was taking. I was relieved that kiddo was showing some obvious interest in one or two subject areas...so it was easier for me to have a direction of sorts. Previously, he was very much a jack of all trades. He still is quite all rounded (not in sports though) but it was around the age of 8-9 that he developed a more than obvious interest in a subject (math). We had to make a decision to deviate from the normal K-12 path at that age so it was probably the best time to start talking to him (gently) about where he was headed with all this math obsession. He still is pretty idealistic in many ways...wants to combine math with being an actor some days. When he was younger, he wanted to be a chef AND an actor lol (I blame Jamie Oliver). So the focus then was to get his math and reading strong enough for any eventuality. But when he started to say math, math all the time, it was clear that I needed to explain where that will head. It was also necessary because he was the only one in his group of friends at the time who wanted to learn math differently. So you could say that the driving force came from him. There was an obvious shift in him from wanting the magical to wanting the practical. Maybe his dreams still aren't 100% practical atm but I don't see why they should be. If you look at Timothy Blais, I can so see him wanting to be a musician in a band when he was younger but also being consumed by how the world works. Erik Demaine might have spent hours doing nothing much but origami (I believe he was unschooled...could be wrong). Like you, I think magical is good. One of his "magicals" was writing puzzles for a living. Then it morphed into pure math. So the practical did come from my child. I didn't see it at first. Everytime he said "oh can we keep doing more math?" I didn't see it as self-motivation at first. It only slowly dawned on me.

 

Will it come naturally? I don't know. Not enough experience to say.

 

Before you put me through the wringer for too high expectations, I would like to say that I am coming at this as a pretty relaxed homeschooler who probably does not push my kids enough. Many times I get the feeling that they would benefit from more pushing, but it's not my nature, which is really weird because I pushed myself hard in school. My parents did not push at all though, so maybe I'm just following that model? Anyway, the point is that I am not a pusher, to the point where I wonder if it's a problem. Maybe my self-pushing in school came from being surrounded by competition (which my kids have little of in their lives). Maybe they actually need much more from me in this department. When kids are in school, they see those ahead of them and get a sense of a trajectory; they know what's coming. That's it, maybe! I feel like my kids have a very hazy view of what's coming? And of their options...and how their choices and work ethic affect their options.

 

I'm very relaxed as well but not to the point of unschooling yet. I do push good habits though...being organized especially and also working hard. As long as the kid is working hard at something I'm mostly happy. I fret when something is not covered but I've been doing this long enough to see that he will eventually cycle back to the stuff he neglects. Ebb and flow sort of thing.

 

Blah, blah, blah, much of this is a subject for another day, but my point is that advice to tell me to relax and don't push isn't what I want either, because I already don't push. I'm just looking to hear how you talk to your kids about their education, how you discuss and work toward long-term goals. And if you can relate to me, I'd love to hear that too. Or if you have older kids now but you could have related to me when yours were at my kids' ages. :D

 

Some specific points that have been on my mind...

 

- developing personal and educational goals, eventually with the kid taking the lead

 

- mutually choosing a philosophy; getting buy-in for the philosophy; tweaking the philosophy together

 

- evaluating and working with strengths and weaknesses (DS10 and I have been working through Smart But Scattered together, win/win!)

 

- discussing and improving work ethic

 

- encouraging self-starting

 

- working on organization

 

- talking seriously about cause and effect (what we work on now builds skills for later, and how)

 

...and anything else you might like to add. (Please feel free to insert your own brand of crazy here! It will make me feel better! :lol:)

 

If your DS is ready, why not keep doing what you're doing? Keep reading those books with him?

 

Another very helpful thing I did from young...we watched a lot of documentaries and we read biographies of mathematicians/ scientists. When there's a Google doodle about someone special's birthday or invention, we research that person. That's how kiddo found out about how entrenched origami is in geometry (or is it vice versa?), that there are all these cool math guys called Conway and Simon Norton. About Princeton and MIT. About Erdos and his awesome work with math. He knows he wants very much to apply to MIT. Whether or not he knows what that will entail I have no idea. But he has some opinions and that's a good place to start imho.

 

 

[mom2bee]

I think this is a valid point and that now is a very appropriate time to talk about it with your kids. Encourage them to make short term goals:

What I want to be able to do after 5th grade.

What I want to learn,

What I want to know more about. 

 

This is something that I think a lot about and that probably was handled very poorly in my own HS education so I am more mindful of it in my own way. I am constantly reminding myself that I'll have to be patient with kids and to really respect their thoughts and wishes because I often felt that no one cared about what I thought, and I think that there is a broad and happy medium between dictating the childs education and sitting idly by. You are wise to give this thought and attention. You probably don't need me to tell you that kids should be involved in real life experiences and decisions, practice making good decisions and weighing the pros and the cons, trying things and learning from their failures or overzealous plans.

 

I think that it would be very cool to require that they study something independently from about 4th or 5th grade each semester/year. Not one of the core subjects, but whatever they are interested in, take it seriously, be respectful of it and hold them accountable for doing something in that area/field. Provide them with opportunities to learn more about it, give them resources, help them learn study habits and techniques and efficient learning methods and techniques. No knowledge is trivial if it is cherished or properly understood. None.

 

If you have a kid that admires beautiful penmanship and wishes they could write cursive, give them a cursive course. If you have a kid that wants to play recorded, buy them one and require that they take lessons on line. If your kid says they want to learn Korean, take them seriously. You never know what will ignite a spark in your kids.

 

I do my best to cater to my younger siblings interests/hobbies but I require some sort of effort from them on a regular basis. I bought my sister language books, my brother drawing books, my other brother legos, etc and I ask that they try to learn/practice/review/draw/make/use their skill every day. They know that if they tell me that they want to do something that I will take them seriously, but it isn't just so that they can play around or slack off. I will buy you art supplies and you will draw daily. I will buy you language books, but you will read them, listen to the CDs etc...

 

If they don't take it seriously, then I repossess the items and won't invest in or humor their interests again for a long while.

 

[quark]

I think that it would be very cool to require that they study something independently from about 4th or 5th grade each semester/year. Not one of the core subjects, but whatever they are interested in, take it seriously, be respectful of it and hold them accountable for doing something in that area/field. Provide them with opportunities to learn more about it, give them resources, help them learn study habits and techniques and efficient learning methods and techniques. No knowledge is trivial if it is cherished or properly understood. None.

 

If you have a kid that admires beautiful penmanship and wishes they could write cursive, give them a cursive course. If you have a kid that wants to play recorded, buy them one and require that they take lessons on line. If your kid says they want to learn Korean, take them seriously. You never know what will ignite a spark in your kids.

 

These are great points. The benefit of being a relaxed homeschooler is that time might be more easily set aside for independent projects too.

 

Something I forgot to add to my earlier ramble.

 

DS and I are working on How to Read a Book by Adler. For the voracious reader that he is, the title can be misleading. But I asked for him to be patient with me because instead of hearing it from me, I wanted the book to help him discover the difference between reading for entertainment and reading for understanding. Then after he had finished reading that preliminary chapter, one of our conversations in the car was about the difference *I* experienced reading Hardy Boys in elementary vs reading Dickens in secondary vs reading John Donne in college. A short conversation, I didn't want to rub it in. Another day, we talked, again in the car, about the usefulness of syntopical reading. And that naturally evolved to talking about college too.

 

Little bits of "what's coming up when you go to college" info now and then. So some of it DOES come up naturally. But I also keep mental reminders to talk about a skill or two with him...but looking for the best opportunity, without lecturing, without going on and on, that's hard. I might use post-it notes if necessary or just file it away mentally (easier with an only child?).

[Alte Veste Academy]

- 10:02 AM, said:

I agree with explaining why. That's something I've done since DS was in first grade. I should have started earlier I think but I was just too burned out then trying to make WTM work for us while also figuring out the whole homeschooing an extrovert only child thing. I think you can start anytime though. Consistently if possible. I explain the "why"s of the materials and the schedule as well as the "how"s of doing what we are doing. I ask what else we can do. But the power to say No to something still lies with him. He knows I will honor it.

 

Yes, apparently consistency with discussing planning is a problem for me. As conscientious as I feel I've been about weaving together instruction, I think I'm missing the mark on weaving together guidance counseling with teaching.

 

This happened with us the other day when the CM/WTM thread inspired me to re-read CM's School Education. DS wanted to know what I was doing with the iPad and I explained CM's methods to him. He didn't lap it up lol but I think he was surprised that I refresh myself on these things. He sees me educating myself even at this age. I think this is also good because it gives them an idea of how much you care about them and their education. They may not realize it immediately but it might be a light bulb moment one day...oh, now I know why this is helpful, why mom suggested doing this and in this way sort of thing. One of the wonderful things about homeschooling you know...I never felt like my school teachers cared. There were one or two who took the time to explain the "why"s of what we were doing but mostly we just kept on chugging without any opportunity to take stock of why we were learning what we were learning. I like that I can avoid this error with my kiddo.

 

I'm probably rambling too but wanted to say I think I know what you mean. I might not be helping you out at all...but it will be something to read while someone with better ideas responds. :)

 

Not rambling at all, and thanks for your input! I feel like they realize how much I care, and that maybe I've actually co-opted their care? I've done all this planning and kept the long-term in my own head instead of discussing it, which would be extremely beneficial as an ongoing process.

 

I think I only really started talking to him about it in 4th grade (ETA: I would bring it up as part of the conversation we were having about studying this or that topic in math). That was when a number of things clicked for me as well. I was more comfortable with the eclectic direction our homeschool was taking. I was relieved that kiddo was showing some obvious interest in one or two subject areas...so it was easier for me to have a direction of sorts. Previously, he was very much a jack of all trades. He still is quite all rounded (not in sports though) but it was around the age of 8-9 that he developed a more than obvious interest in a subject (math). We had to make a decision to deviate from the normal K-12 path at that age so it was probably the best time to start talking to him (gently) about where he was headed with all this math obsession. He still is pretty idealistic in many ways...wants to combine math with being an actor some days. When he was younger, he wanted to be a chef AND an actor lol (I blame Jamie Oliver). So the focus then was to get his math and reading strong enough for any eventuality. But when he started to say math, math all the time, it was clear that I needed to explain where that will head. It was also necessary because he was the only one in his group of friends at the time who wanted to learn math differently. So you could say that the driving force came from him. There was an obvious shift in him from wanting the magical to wanting the practical. Maybe his dreams still aren't 100% practical atm but I don't see why they should be. If you look at Timothy Blais, I can so see him wanting to be a musician in a band when he was younger but also being consumed by how the world works. Erik Demaine might have spent hours doing nothing much but origami (I believe he was unschooled...could be wrong). Like you, I think magical is good. One of his "magicals" was writing puzzles for a living. Then it morphed into pure math. So the practical did come from my child. I didn't see it at first. Everytime he said "oh can we keep doing more math?" I didn't see it as self-motivation at first. It only slowly dawned on me.

 

It was about that same age that DS10 stopped hating math. LOL! I will look at those links. Thanks! I can see self-motivation in many areas with oldest DS now, and many areas with DD (and zero with DS7, but that's to be expected). He's definitely one who self-propels when interested. But even when self-propelled, I don't get the impression yet that he is getting more long-term goal oriented.

 

Will it come naturally? I don't know. Not enough experience to say.

 

I'm very relaxed as well but not to the point of unschooling yet. I do push good habits though...being organized especially and also working hard. As long as the kid is working hard at something I'm mostly happy. I fret when something is not covered but I've been doing this long enough to see that he will eventually cycle back to the stuff he neglects. Ebb and flow sort of thing.

 

Yeah, I am definitely not willing to go unschooly. It's my natural bent and can be dangerous for me. :tongue_smilie: What we are doing here for school works, very well actually. It's more of an issue of school work not coming together with a long view. And I think it is totally a me problem.

 

If your DS is ready, why not keep doing what you're doing? Keep reading those books with him?

 

I will definitely do this. I've got How to Read a Book too. We have also read lots of biographies, but for different purposes, so I think I'll seek some modern ones for us to read together. For his swimming, we've read some motivational stuff. He did express interest in goal-setting with that but then we both seem to have forgotten. We need to journal together, maybe.

Thanks, quark!

[Alte Veste Academy]

This is something that I think a lot about and that probably was handled very poorly in my own HS education so I am more mindful of it in my own way. I am constantly reminding myself that I'll have to be patient with kids and to really respect their thoughts and wishes because I often felt that no one cared about what I thought, and I think that there is a broad and happy medium between dictating the childs education and sitting idly by. You are wise to give this thought and attention. You probably don't need me to tell you that kids should be involved in real life experiences and decisions, practice making good decisions and weighing the pros and the cons, trying things and learning from their failures or overzealous plans.

 

I think that it would be very cool to require that they study something independently from about 4th or 5th grade each semester/year. Not one of the core subjects, but whatever they are interested in, take it seriously, be respectful of it and hold them accountable for doing something in that area/field. Provide them with opportunities to learn more about it, give them resources, help them learn study habits and techniques and efficient learning methods and techniques. No knowledge is trivial if it is cherished or properly understood. None.

 

If you have a kid that admires beautiful penmanship and wishes they could write cursive, give them a cursive course. If you have a kid that wants to play recorded, buy them one and require that they take lessons on line. If your kid says they want to learn Korean, take them seriously. You never know what will ignite a spark in your kids.

 

Yes, we discuss short-term goals. They help me plan for the short-term (daily/weekly/yearly) often. It's somehow for the long-term and cause-and-effect stuff that I seem to be squirreling away my thoughts. LOL They definitely know I care about what they think. For instance, we do art daily because DD loves art and the boys like it a great deal. They each do interest led project-based learning of some sort. They know that an interest expressed is an interest pursued. They know I am always going to make an effort to honor their interests and personalities. It's more that they are unaware of the possibilities, because before now I haven't thought to purposefully widen their view of the future.

 

DS10 started doing some serious independent work over the summer (self-teaching Latin, at his own request). Also, he's been plugging away independently with his music (on guitar and piano) for a couple of years, and swim team is completely his experience. DD has some degree of independence in different areas as well.

 

Thanks for helping me think. :)

 

 

[Pen]

A wonderful thread to think about!  Thank you for sharing your thoughts!!!

 

I plan to be replying with more content and thoughts of my own as I am able in next few days.

[Pen]

Giving this a bump up and adding a first few of my percolating thoughts.

 

 

... DS10 asked what I was doing. And I thought are you kidding me? You don't know what I'm doing? But then I realized that of course he doesn't, because I just keep that mess in my head.

 

I'm not sure that before age 10 it would be something that a child could really be involved in deeply anyway.  My ds has been to 2 different b&m schools as well as homeschooling, so he has some ideas of differences.  This year, his closest friend who was homeschooling in an eclectic parent led style, switched to Connections Academy, and he was asking about that, and another friend who was in public school, but wanted to homeschool in part b/c ds was, was switched to doing a Classical Education charter school mainly from home.   So that has brought up some different thoughts and ideas...and discussion.   The Connections will be having Chinese, the Classical charter has Latin-- I think the latter probably at a higher level than the former.

 

 

One dilemma I've had is that I want to present things in a way that does not say that one sort of job is "better" than another, because I do not want him to look at others in society as having worth based on the job or position they hold, or that I would not love him or love him less if he were a _____ versus a _______ , or did or did not go to college.  

 

Some of the things he has said he wants to do when he grows up (and that sound actually reasonable for his talents) do not require college.   Although some of them do.  So if he wants to go into construction, or become a chef, say, and not go to college, I want him to feel fine with that.   And at the same time, I do want him to be able to go to college if he wants to, even to be able to go to a top college if he wants to and is able to and not to be stopped by having been inadequately prepared early on.  Nor to have my situation of feeling unprepared for a top college which I did get into.  

 

When it has come to math , he has pointed out that he is doing things his friends are not (pre-algebra when they might have been on a regular 5th grade math program, say), and I have been trying to explain the concept of not closing doors based on what he thinks at 5 or 11 he may want to do when he grows up, because that may change.  And I don't want his high school time to be crazy hectic to make up for not enough done earlier.  (He has seen Stand and Deliver, so I can give him some sense of the amount of work it was taking the kids in the movie to make it up to calculus when they had not been properly prepared for it earlier.  And yet I also want him to have exploring and playing time now and not over do the academics at this stage in life either.   

 

Stand and Deliver made for some interesting discussion about things like being a waitress versus possibly becoming a doctor (Ana character), or a mechanic versus perhaps someone who could design cars (Pancho).

 

Then there are even more abstract ideas about--whether one is going to be a mechanic or a doctor, or whatever else one is going to do for a living-- becoming a well-rounded and generally knowledgeable and educated person, about being able to think critically, and reason well, and so on, and even about learning as something ongoing through life that is valuable for itself and for enriching ones life--I think it is only really now that these types of ideas actually make much sense to him.   

 

 

To be clear, I do talk to my kids about their education. But now I'm thinking I do it in a childish, piddly way instead of a long-term partnership kind of way.

 

Well, yeah, but again, I do not know how old your dd is, but I think this makes sense to change as the age gets into 2 digits or so.

 

I let them look at my (already culled) book lists and program options and let them have say. (And I actually think this is pretty good for now, but that I should be talking about why those are the options I have selected.) Anyway, to some extent, I let them help me plan what they are going to learn that day, week, month, and even school year. But beyond (broken record type) nagging about needing to work hard and some (I now realize) relatively worthless talk about honoring their future selves (could I get any more sappy?), I am not helping them develop a long view. Meanwhile, sometimes I am so focused on the long view that I am distracted away from the importance of the day-to-day grind and, apparently, discussions about what takes up so much of my head space. I can be very obtuse.

 

So anyway, that day when DS asked me what I was doing, I told him. He expressed interest, like I was revealing to him some secret truth I knew and he didn't: what all this homeschooling and his education are all about. I read him the opening and several sections of WTM. And he loved it. DD came in and listened and started asking questions, good questions. We had some lovely discussion and then started the school year...then went back to the same ol', same ol'. Then yesterday in the CM threads, I was dragging out my copy of When Children Love to Learn and the kids looked at my open book, riddled with underlining, stars, and (I kid you not :tongue_smilie:) happy-faced exclamation marks and asked me about that. I read some of that book to them and, once again, they loved it. Just ate it up. So, for the second time, I thought I am just screwing this up, this letting them know what motivates me and what affects them every day without them even knowing it, and how they could possibly take that information and gain from it...resolve maybe? a sense of purpose? a motivation and sense of direction and definition as they move into upper grades?

 

 

Well, I have not tried to read any of those to my ds, nor has he expressed interest like yours thus far, but interestingly, he just expressed interest in what I was doing now on the computer, so I read him the part above.  While he himself may or may not be interested in WTM etc., he was interested that your children were!  

 

 

 

To be continued...

[Alte Veste Academy]

I'm not sure that before age 10 it would be something that a child could really be involved in deeply anyway.  My ds has been to 2 different b&m schools as well as homeschooling, so he has some ideas of differences.  This year, his closest friend who was homeschooling in an eclectic parent led style, switched to Connections Academy, and he was asking about that, and another friend who was in public school, but wanted to homeschool in part b/c ds was, was switched to doing a Classical Education charter school mainly from home.   So that has brought up some different thoughts and ideas...and discussion.   The Connections will be having Chinese, the Classical charter has Latin-- I think the latter probably at a higher level than the former.

 

One dilemma I've had is that I want to present things in a way that does not say that one sort of job is "better" than another, because I do not want him to look at others in society as having worth based on the job or position they hold, or that I would not love him or love him less if he were a _____ versus a _______ , or did or did not go to college.  

 

Some of the things he has said he wants to do when he grows up (and that sound actually reasonable for his talents) do not require college.   Although some of them do.  So if he wants to go into construction, or become a chef, say, and not go to college, I want him to feel fine with that.   And at the same time, I do want him to be able to go to college if he wants to, even to be able to go to a top college if he wants to and is able to and not to be stopped by having been inadequately prepared early on.  Nor to have my situation of feeling unprepared for a top college which I did get into.  

 

When it has come to math , he has pointed out that he is doing things his friends are not (pre-algebra when they might have been on a regular 5th grade math program, say), and I have been trying to explain the concept of not closing doors based on what he thinks at 5 or 11 he may want to do when he grows up, because that may change.  And I don't want his high school time to be crazy hectic to make up for not enough done earlier.  (He has seen Stand and Deliver, so I can give him some sense of the amount of work it was taking the kids in the movie to make it up to calculus when they had not been properly prepared for it earlier.  And yet I also want him to have exploring and playing time now and not over do the academics at this stage in life either.   

 

Stand and Deliver made for some interesting discussion about things like being a waitress versus possibly becoming a doctor (Ana character), or a mechanic versus perhaps someone who could design cars (Pancho).

 

Then there are even more abstract ideas about--whether one is going to be a mechanic or a doctor, or whatever else one is going to do for a living-- becoming a well-rounded and generally knowledgeable and educated person, about being able to think critically, and reason well, and so on, and even about learning as something ongoing through life that is valuable for itself and for enriching ones life--I think it is only really now that these types of ideas actually make much sense to him.   

 

Well, yeah, but again, I do not know how old your dd is, but I think this makes sense to change as the age gets into 2 digits or so.

 

Well, I have not tried to read any of those to my ds, nor has he expressed interest like yours thus far, but interestingly, he just expressed interest in what I was doing now on the computer, so I read him the part above.  While he himself may or may not be interested in WTM etc., he was interested that your children were!  

 

I find this very interesting. DS10 does not talk to his friends about school at all and his friends don't seem to talk about school either. I asked him today after reading your post, and he looked at me like I was an alien. I think they mostly just talk about Legos, Wimpy Kid, Legos, swimming, Legos... So not only does he not have school to compare his work/progress with, he has zero frame of reference. Because he is mostly working ahead, I would have said before that it's a good thing (because then he won't give me guff or feel like a smarty-pants :lol:), but I see now that there is a drawback here too, a significant one. We have had many conversations about not cutting off options by working hard in every area. We do make sure to give lots of time to pet areas though.

 

I'll have to check out Stand and Deliver. Might be good to start looking at reality a little harder.

 

DD is 9, but is more likely to "get it" and care about cause-and-effect than DS10, so in that way it might be beneficial for me to begin treating all this as a life skills, practical school subject.

 

I hope your kids enjoy the books! I think I'll look through my stash tomorrow for more that I think will resonate with them and inspire...maybe Marva Collins next!

[thebacabunch]

The only counseling I do with my kids is explaining why I choose the books and curriculum that I do, which is to prepare them for college.  I take their interests and expound on future career options with their interests.  I show them the salaries of different professions and the vast difference in paycheck for high school grads compared to college grads.  This is more than my high school counselor ever did for me.  I think you sound like a very tuned in mom who wants to ignite a love for learning in her kids.  Good for you!

[duckens]

We set an expectation of college and talk about it. 

 

As my children grow, we will discuss skills to develop to succeed in college: 

--study skills

--computer skills

--communication skills, in all of its forms: from email to Powerpoint to texting

--a job in one's field of major while attending college.  This could be tutoring if one wants to teach, working with youth athletics if one wants to go into health or kinesiology, working with engineering camp or the solar car if one wants to be an engineer,  writing and producing local plays if one wants to be a drama major, or working in a professor's lab if one wants to major in a science.

--understand that a syllabus is your classroom bible.  You live and die by that schedule.

--the value of languages

--money skills (you don't want to be derailed by money issues big or small that would make you stop school for a semester)

 

 

I plan to look for mentors for my children in their field of interest.  I think that the role of a GOOD mentor is undervalued.  Someone who says, "Here is a career or training opportunity," or "What are you doing to meet this (unrequired but recommended) step?" or, "See how this is done from start to finish?"

 

 

Also, whenever I meet someone in a job that my children may be interested, I ask them questions about how they landed there. 

 

"How did you become a _____________?"

"What things do bosses look for in that field?"

"What is the best path to a job like that?"

 

Two summers ago, I asked the another mom at swim lessons how one would prepare for being an engineer.  She mentioned:

--math

--working with many materials

--competency in wood shop and metal shop

--lots of chemistry

--ETA: Physics, of course!

 

When visiting Loverboy's relatives, I learned his uncle is now working in Cybersecurity.  He started in data input, moved to network admin, and is now in cybersecurity.  He named a professional organization that provides training for those in the field.

 

We also talk about how jobs with a college degree usually pay better, provide medical/dental care, and provide more flexibility.  Loverboy had a college degree, so if he wanders into work a few minutes late, no one cares.  I don't have a degree, and can be fired for being late.  Loverboy can take a long lunch if he chooses.  I have a quick pee break and scarfing down something that got too hot in the microwave.  Loverboy can rearrange his schedule on short notice if we need him at home.  (If I am very sick and ask him to come home early).  In my old job, I would have been chastised for my family calling my work.

 

 

[8filltheheart]

AVA,

 

One thing to remember is that all kids are different and it has nothing to do with how they are educated or raised. Their individual personalities and rate of maturity play roles that we have no control over. Our 19 yr old dd drove me nuts in high school (not in a bad way, but bc I didn't know how plan her courses way). If you search the high school forum from a few yrs ago you will find posts about me wondering how to prepare her for Johnson Wales University bc she wanted to become a master chef. Next she wanted to pursue forensic chemistry. Then biochemistry. Then possibly medical school. Then FBI forensics. She went back and forth with so many ideas that I felt dizzy for her!

 

I am a let my kids make their own decisions kind of parent. I personally thought none of the ideas she floated around were a good fit. She is a nurturer. She is a people person. We discussed what the different jobs involved. We sent her to a real "not TV sensationalized" forensic chemistry camp. We put her in contact with a master chef, etc. she started to recognize they weren't good fits, but she wasn't convinced fully.

 

We kept her coursework very balanced (unlike her siblings who, while covering a broad range of subjects, definitely had areas of specific concentration as well). She spent a yr at a classical LAC. She was still waffling when she graduated. I calmly kept presenting her with "people" options while she kept focusing on lab/science type options.

 

The summer before college she hadn't been able to find a job. I was looking through a small county flier and in it was a help wanted ad for a severely disabled teen.....a 14 yr old boy who functioned at an 18 month level. She applied and the fact that she was used to dealing with her disabled older brother and taking care of lots of younger sibling got her the job. And.....she fell in love with it it. She loved doing the occupational therapy games with him that his mother showed her how to do. She loved talking to him and taking him for walks. She blossomed in that job. His mother told her that she had no idea that he had any concept of time/days until dd started working for them. She said on the days that dd was scheduled to be his caregiver that he would go sit in a certain spot where he could see the driveway. He had never done that for any caregiver ever before.

 

Fwiw, she is now in an OTA program and knows that this is exactly what she wants to do. But, she had to find her way there on her own. She was convinced she wanted to go another direction and really, it is hard to imagine when they are younger, but they really aren't that malleable to seeing our POV. ;). Exposure to options and discussion is the best you can do and accept that they really need to find their own feet.

 

That is sort of OT from what you originally asked, but isn't at the same time. My kids have incredible amts of input over what they study, including core subjects----definitely including core subjects. We discuss things all the time. (Not educational philosophy....that is in my head and pretty much stays there, but the purpose behind what they do, yes). My oldest knew from a young age he wanted to be an engineer....not specifically what type, but an engineer. Another ds has always loved math and by 13 knew physics was IT. Our 14 yod has loved languages since she was in elementary school. Even our 11 yod has been fascinated by weather since she was 5 and for the past 6 yrs has told is she is going to be a meteorologist.

 

They have all been raised and educated under the same philosophy. There just isn't any single answer to any given question. There aren't even always answers we can find until we have made 1000 mistakes. (That is our role with our adult Aspie, unfortunately.) Provide opportunities for exploring multiple fields, value work ethic, provide solid educational foundations, explore options together, etc. But.....at some pt, the who that they are plays a bigger role than we do.

[AimeeM]

Spam reported

[duckens]

Other strategies I will share with my children (and I have shared with other students):

1) When I attended our local university, there are many very large lectures with 200+ students.  Let's use the example of Physics I (Phys 177) -- the hard Physics.

 

Our local university has 3 Physics I lectures for this course: 2pm, 3pm, and 4pm.  All lectures are identical.  They may or may not be taught by the same professor, but they all follow the same syllabus, are graded the same way, and take the same tests.  If you cannot get into the 2pm class, register for a later class.  No matter what session you are registered, you can attend an earlier class if you choose (or not attend at all as long as you show up for the tests); and once the first week or so passes, there is room in all sessions as students drop or change or simply choose to study on their own.

 

Because the lectures have over 200+ students, the professors ask students to not ask questions.  There is a certain amount of material to cover in class, and with 200+ students in class, there is simply no time to go over stuff a second time, or go down rabbit holes.

 

My advice is: Attend the Last Lecture of the Day.  I did this, and there were 12 students in the class.  If I didn't understand something, I COULD stop the professor and ask for clarification.  Likewise, take the evening recitation, if possible.  Rather than 25-30 kids in a recitation section, the evening session had 6, and usually only 3 showed up.  Again, lots of 1-on-1 to get practice doing Physics problems and ask questions.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

2) Have a career path.  It's okay if this path changes.  (The average college student changes their major 5 times in 4 years).  Have a plan.

 

Example A:

I had a friend years ago who LOVED Geology.  However, he was realistic about how hard it would be to get one of the few Geology jobs after graduation, so he majored in Pre-Pharmacy instead, planned to go to Pharmacy school, and do geology on the weekends.

 

Example B:

Loverboy's nephew is a Senior in high school.  He wants to major in History, because he LOVES History. 

 

Then he wants to go to Law School. This is great, but the legal profession is saturated at this time.  Even graduates from top law schools in the country are having trouble paying off their debts and finding appropriately paying jobs.  I advised him that if he really, really, really loves the law, he should go to law school, but otherwise, he should consider other options.

 

I did a simple Google search of "What can you do as a history major?" and found choices ranging from working at a think tank, to author, to librarian (imagine "Document Preservation at the National Archives").  Most states need their documents preserved, and the number of "librarians" of this sort is in short supply for this sort of purpose.

 

Nephew may or may not go to Law School, but he now has many extra paths to consider with the history he loves so much.

 

 

 

ETA: Edited to finish the post because the cat posted for me!  Yes, I love you Guinea!

[Farrar]

My response is probably pretty rambly...

 

I took a lot of flack here a year or two ago for saying that I thought kids should have some idea of a path they want to follow by some point in middle school and that schooling should start to be at least a little customized thinking about those goals.  Not that it can't be changed, not that you don't want to give a broad education still.  A lot of people said, way too young, how can you expect a child to know their whole future by then.  That's not what I'm saying...  Just that I think it's good to begin doing that long term planning and it needs the kids participation.  I think there's a real value in that kind of long range thinking.  One of the things I don't love about WTM is that it presents a very "one size fits all" education plan.  I like the idea of preparing kids to be able to do anything is great and the idea of getting a foundation in the great works and having a broad and deep look at that is one that appeals to me.  But I also think that there's a real value in not waiting to try to follow a path and hone a passion.  And I'd like to specifically shepherd my kids through that, which means I don't want them to wait until college before figuring that out.

 

My 9 yos' aspirations are also still fantasy.  BalletBoy wants to be a professional ballet dancing movie making video game programmer.  It doesn't get more pie in the sky than that.  And Mushroom flits from thing to thing every year.  A chef.  A writer.  An actor.  A programmer...  But I do have it as a goal to help them begin to get somewhere with what they're thinking in the next couple of years.  A vague goal.  With vague ends.  This sort of gets to one of the things that I've been thinking about as we enter the last year of the grammar stage - about what I want to see in the logic stage that will be different.  Part of me wants to scrap all our cycles and do something much more project based for content...

 

Oh, and I can't continue those thoughts.  Off to the National Book Festival or we'll miss the people I want to see...

 

[Nicholas_mom]

Alte Veste Academy  your ramblings are the same in my head, too :)

 

As I this is the last year for grammer stage child, I have the same feelings and thoughts rambling in my mind.  Thanks for sharing your thoughts with us. 

[Alte Veste Academy]

The only counseling I do with my kids is explaining why I choose the books and curriculum that I do, which is to prepare them for college.  I take their interests and expound on future career options with their interests.  I show them the salaries of different professions and the vast difference in paycheck for high school grads compared to college grads.  This is more than my high school counselor ever did for me.  I think you sound like a very tuned in mom who wants to ignite a love for learning in her kids.  Good for you!

 

Thanks for this. Good ideas, and I appreciate the kind words.

 

[Alte Veste Academy]

We set an expectation of college and talk about it. 

 

As my children grow, we will discuss skills to develop to succeed in college: 

--study skills

--computer skills

--communication skills, in all of its forms: from email to Powerpoint to texting

--a job in one's field of major while attending college.  This could be tutoring if one wants to teach, working with youth athletics if one wants to go into health or kinesiology, working with engineering camp or the solar car if one wants to be an engineer,  writing and producing local plays if one wants to be a drama major, or working in a professor's lab if one wants to major in a science.

--understand that a syllabus is your classroom bible.  You live and die by that schedule.

--the value of languages

--money skills (you don't want to be derailed by money issues big or small that would make you stop school for a semester)

 

I plan to look for mentors for my children in their field of interest.  I think that the role of a GOOD mentor is undervalued.  Someone who says, "Here is a career or training opportunity," or "What are you doing to meet this (unrequired but recommended) step?" or, "See how this is done from start to finish?"

 

Also, whenever I meet someone in a job that my children may be interested, I ask them questions about how they landed there. 

 

"How did you become a _____________?"

"What things do bosses look for in that field?"

"What is the best path to a job like that?"

 

Two summers ago, I asked the another mom at swim lessons how one would prepare for being an engineer.  She mentioned:

--math

--working with many materials

--competency in wood shop and metal shop

--lots of chemistry

--ETA: Physics, of course!

 

When visiting Loverboy's relatives, I learned his uncle is now working in Cybersecurity.  He started in data input, moved to network admin, and is now in cybersecurity.  He named a professional organization that provides training for those in the field.

 

We also talk about how jobs with a college degree usually pay better, provide medical/dental care, and provide more flexibility.  Loverboy had a college degree, so if he wanders into work a few minutes late, no one cares.  I don't have a degree, and can be fired for being late.  Loverboy can take a long lunch if he chooses.  I have a quick pee break and scarfing down something that got too hot in the microwave.  Loverboy can rearrange his schedule on short notice if we need him at home.  (If I am very sick and ask him to come home early).  In my old job, I would have been chastised for my family calling my work.

 

Duckens, thanks for these very specific ideas. Lots of good stuff here! It never would have occurred to me to ask people about their path, but that's such a great idea. And for the kids to hear as many sequential path-to-career stories as they can.

 

You also made me realize that although I say I am open to my kids going into a trade vs attending college, DH and I also have an expectation of college. We talk about it like it's a sure thing. Interesting... In my absolute perfect world, they would be plumber-scientists/seamstress-veterinarians/mechanic-engineers... LOL Despite our lack of meaningful discussion about the future, all three kids do look forward to attending college but, again, for magical reasons (we've driven by my gorgeous alma mater many times and they have heard stories, we've been downtown where the big local university is with its awesome skyscraper student housing, etc.). Yes, definitely time to start a dialogue about real life and real reasons.

 

Other strategies I will share with my children (and I have shared with other students):

 

Interesting! Finding opportunities where being purposefully strategic definitely pays off. A lesson in being mindful. Thanks!

[Alte Veste Academy]

AVA,

 

One thing to remember is that all kids are different and it has nothing to do with how they are educated or raised. Their individual personalities and rate of maturity play roles that we have no control over. Our 19 yr old dd drove me nuts in high school (not in a bad way, but bc I didn't know how plan her courses way). If you search the high school forum from a few yrs ago you will find posts about me wondering how to prepare her for Johnson Wales University bc she wanted to become a master chef. Next she wanted to pursue forensic chemistry. Then biochemistry. Then possibly medical school. Then FBI forensics. She went back and forth with so many ideas that I felt dizzy for her!

 

I am a let my kids make their own decisions kind of parent. I personally thought none of the ideas she floated around were a good fit. She is a nurturer. She is a people person. We discussed what the different jobs involved. We sent her to a real "not TV sensationalized" forensic chemistry camp. We put her in contact with a master chef, etc. she started to recognize they weren't good fits, but she wasn't convinced fully.

 

We kept her coursework very balanced (unlike her siblings who, while covering a broad range of subjects, definitely had areas of specific concentration as well). She spent a yr at a classical LAC. She was still waffling when she graduated. I calmly kept presenting her with "people" options while she kept focusing on lab/science type options.

 

The summer before college she hadn't been able to find a job. I was looking through a small county flier and in it was a help wanted ad for a severely disabled teen.....a 14 yr old boy who functioned at an 18 month level. She applied and the fact that she was used to dealing with her disabled older brother and taking care of lots of younger sibling got her the job. And.....she fell in love with it it. She loved doing the occupational therapy games with him that his mother showed her how to do. She loved talking to him and taking him for walks. She blossomed in that job. His mother told her that she had no idea that he had any concept of time/days until dd started working for them. She said on the days that dd was scheduled to be his caregiver that he would go sit in a certain spot where he could see the driveway. He had never done that for any caregiver ever before.

 

Fwiw, she is now in an OTA program and knows that this is exactly what she wants to do. But, she had to find her way there on her own. She was convinced she wanted to go another direction and really, it is hard to imagine when they are younger, but they really aren't that malleable to seeing our POV. ;). Exposure to options and discussion is the best you can do and accept that they really need to find their own feet.

 

That is sort of OT from what you originally asked, but isn't at the same time. My kids have incredible amts of input over what they study, including core subjects----definitely including core subjects. We discuss things all the time. (Not educational philosophy....that is in my head and pretty much stays there, but the purpose behind what they do, yes). My oldest knew from a young age he wanted to be an engineer....not specifically what type, but an engineer. Another ds has always loved math and by 13 knew physics was IT. Our 14 yod has loved languages since she was in elementary school. Even our 11 yod has been fascinated by weather since she was 5 and for the past 6 yrs has told is she is going to be a meteorologist.

 

They have all been raised and educated under the same philosophy. There just isn't any single answer to any given question. There aren't even always answers we can find until we have made 1000 mistakes. (That is our role with our adult Aspie, unfortunately.) Provide opportunities for exploring multiple fields, value work ethic, provide solid educational foundations, explore options together, etc. But.....at some pt, the who that they are plays a bigger role than we do.

 

Thanks for the reminder about personal rate of development. I'm thinking this is why I'm just as ready to start this dialogue with DD9 right now as I am with DS10. They are 19 months apart, but in many ways she is more ready for this discussion than he is (urgh, maybe not exactly more ready, but she would probably have the bigger light bulb moment and start to really process it and think deeply about cause and effect in response to it). I don't know how to explain how my oldest is simultaneously the more mature and reliable but also the most naive. Maybe he's like me. LOL He shuts out what he doesn't want to hear. (I'm not being falsely self-deprecating here, people. I really am pretty obtuse about a lot of things. :lol:)

 

I really appreciate you telling your DD's story. It helps a great deal. Maybe I'm feeling the urge to begin all this with my kids because I knew beyond the shadow of a doubt what I wanted to do all through school, and it backfired. I was completely fixated on one career. Then, bizarrely, I had the hardest time narrowing down options in college. Basically, feeling like I had seriously committed to this choice (as if!) and held onto it for so many years had given me blinders to all the other opportunities that were out there. I went to a local state school for two years, working through core courses, only transferring to my alma mater for the last two years, when it "counted" for the courses in my major. For the first two years of college, it didn't even occur to me to explore options, I was still so dead set on that one career. Then after I transferred and took a good look at my college's course catalog, it was like the blinders were ripped off and I was overwhelmed by all the exciting options. All of the sudden, I wanted to do everything. I was interested in everything. In the end, I chose poorly for myself. My major is not one I would choose again. But I did learn in those final two years of college that the career I had dreamed of for so many years wasn't right for me either.

 

Anyway, you have helped me have an epiphany, which is that I want to give my kids a broad outlook and as much information as possible in the hopes that they can avoid repeating my mistake. Stumbling is normal and bound to happen, but by the time they finish college, I want them to have a better sense of themselves and a more realistic view of the day-to-day grind than I did. (This is probably why I always nod in agreement when you talk about not wanting to graduate kids working ahead before 18. Me neither! Not only are there potential maturity and social issues, but I want them to get as much time with me as possible to explore possibilities, in part so that they don't have to choose a field at an even earlier age. How little I knew my future self when I was forced to pick something and stick with it in college!)

 

On a related note, your DD's story reminded me very much of my early years with DH. We met while we were both in college. He had picked a rigorous major, but he was so half-hearted about studying (really probably more like one-quarter-hearted, LOL). He just never seemed motivated by his course work. I was always wringing my hands and worried about him because I just knew this was not the path that he should be on, but to say otherwise felt unsupportive. So basically I just worried and hoped for a change. One finally came, and that was it. He had found it. Almost 21 years later, that career is still his it. Phew!

 

So, anyway, as to the bolded, that is my hope. I was not true to myself, and I'm sad about that. My DH found what was true to him, and I was (and still am) thrilled about that. Now I'm hoping my kids will find their true path too, and I feel I need to start an ongoing dialogue with each of them.

 

On another related note, I finally have true-to-myself, fulfilling career aspirations of my own...after my kids leave the house anyway. :lol:

[Alte Veste Academy]

My response is probably pretty rambly...

 

I took a lot of flack here a year or two ago for saying that I thought kids should have some idea of a path they want to follow by some point in middle school and that schooling should start to be at least a little customized thinking about those goals.  Not that it can't be changed, not that you don't want to give a broad education still.  A lot of people said, way too young, how can you expect a child to know their whole future by then.  That's not what I'm saying...  Just that I think it's good to begin doing that long term planning and it needs the kids participation.  I think there's a real value in that kind of long range thinking.  One of the things I don't love about WTM is that it presents a very "one size fits all" education plan.  I like the idea of preparing kids to be able to do anything is great and the idea of getting a foundation in the great works and having a broad and deep look at that is one that appeals to me.  But I also think that there's a real value in not waiting to try to follow a path and hone a passion.  And I'd like to specifically shepherd my kids through that, which means I don't want them to wait until college before figuring that out.

 

My 9 yos' aspirations are also still fantasy.  BalletBoy wants to be a professional ballet dancing movie making video game programmer.  It doesn't get more pie in the sky than that.  And Mushroom flits from thing to thing every year.  A chef.  A writer.  An actor.  A programmer...  But I do have it as a goal to help them begin to get somewhere with what they're thinking in the next couple of years.  A vague goal.  With vague ends.  This sort of gets to one of the things that I've been thinking about as we enter the last year of the grammar stage - about what I want to see in the logic stage that will be different.  Part of me wants to scrap all our cycles and do something much more project based for content...

 

Oh, and I can't continue those thoughts.  Off to the National Book Festival or we'll miss the people I want to see...

 

First of all, I am jealous of you going to the NBF. :lol:

 

I agree that there is value in long-range thinking. I am realizing that up until now, I've only involved my kids in short-range planning. Because of my own negative history with blinders and long-range planning, I think the best next step for us is engaging in long-range thinking combined with mid-range planning. I think we can learn about the myriad choices they will have as adults, the veritable cornucopia of options out there for them, and that they will have favorites, but that our plans to support those interests always have a no-self-judgement exit loop to let them back out to explore other things. Leaving my path too late left me much worse off than letting myself "off the hook" for it earlier would have.

 

The way I envision my kids' education is such that it will be broad and rigorous while allowing extra time and attention for passions as they pop up and evolve. To me, this is necessary so that when and if passions change, there is at least a solid baseline of understanding and skill in any given area on which they can fall back instead of a feeling of having to start from scratch or play an overwhelming amount of catch-up. If they stay the course and don't change paths, they will still have the benefit of being well-rounded.

 

Your thoughts about moving into something project-based instead of cycle-based are very interesting to me, basically because I feel that is where my kids are forcing me right now. DS10 and DD9 are starting to get resistant when I move forward in this, that, or the other because they are really still very interested in what we are moving on from. I have always let them keep reading and working on things even as I move forward to keep us "on track" (rolling my eyes at myself a little here, LOL), but where in earlier years they took in the new themes with interest, they are now more likely to sit passively, tune out, and be positively antsy to get back to what they are already interested in. Interesting. Challenging, but interesting.

 

I recently went through Cathy Duffy's second book, her 101 book. I remembered that years ago in her 100 Choices book, unit studies, unschooling, and CM were the teaching styles in which I scored highest, so I wanted to see how much I've changed. Turns out I have not changed at all.. :lol: I've just spent years resisting my true nature. Now, I will not (cannot!) be an unschooler because it is a very poor choice for my inherent weaknesses, but I'm thinking that a progressive unit study framework is more likely to equal the project-based learning that my kids naturally crave, so I need to figure out how to give that more attention in school while still making sure I'm giving them a broad and rigorous progression in each subject. How to marry those...

[quark]

Thanks, quark!

I'm learning a lot lurking here. Thanks for asking the q, AVA!

Really glad others are chiming in. Off to lurk and read and re-read everyone's post. :)

[quark]

Your thoughts about moving into something project-based instead of cycle-based are very interesting to me, basically because I feel that is where my kids are forcing me right now. DS10 and DD9 are starting to get resistant when I move forward in this, that, or the other because they are really still very interested in what we are moving on from. I have always let them keep reading and working on things even as I move forward to keep us "on track" (rolling my eyes at myself a little here, LOL), but where in earlier years they took in the new themes with interest, they are now more likely to sit passively, tune out, and be positively antsy to get back to what they are already interested in. Interesting. Challenging, but interesting.

 

I recently went through Cathy Duffy's second book, her 101 book. I remembered that years ago in her 100 Choices book, unit studies, unschooling, and CM were the teaching styles in which I scored highest, so I wanted to see how much I've changed. Turns out I have not changed at all.. :lol: I've just spent years resisting my true nature. Now, I will not (cannot!) be an unschooler because it is a very poor choice for my inherent weaknesses, but I'm thinking that a progressive unit study framework is more likely to equal the project-based learning that my kids naturally crave, so I need to figure out how to give that more attention in school while still making sure I'm giving them a broad and rigorous progression in each subject. How to marry those...

 

First bolded part: that's us too but I think I've eased up a little bit on the my moving forward. What I mean is I have not eased up on the moving forward itself but I've eased up on feeling bad about not moving forward with *my* objectives being the priority because I do see now the benefit of allowing him to move forward with *his* objectives foremost, realizing that he will reach those levels of progress I had envisioned with *my* objectives anyway...just at a different pace, sometimes sooner, sometimes slower, sometimes the same. I think I am realizing that as long as this kid really enjoys learning, continues to be curious and driven by his own internal engine-that-could, we are still going to reach the same or a similar end result to what I keep hoping for.

 

Second bolded: I'm grinning widely here. I took a test like that back in 2007 when we were going to start homeschooling officially with K. The test was on a charter school website (I forget which). I scored very highly in the unit study/ project based category. But I kept fighting it, kept thinking I need to be more structured than that. Then burned out trying to impose that structure, eased back and I think I have now found my mix of structure+laid back. Still not confident winging the PBL approach but I don't think my son is a 100% project lover anyway so we're good for now. :)

 

Someone up-thread also mentioned mentors. I forgot to mention how useful that has been for us. That's something DS and I talk about a lot. When he meets with his math mentor, the excitement is electric when they are solving a good math problem. We talk about that excitement. How his mentor is so much older (60's) but how crazy he still is about what he does. So he obviously loves it right? How can you achieve that, kiddo? It starts with identifying what he can do with his life where he can do it over and over and not be super bored by it (important for a kid who gets bored fast). It's maybe not even "work/ a job" when you pursue something like that. We talk about how animated his music teacher gets when he discusses jazz greats. We discuss George Wolfe a lot (the Thinkwell Bio guy) because you can see so crystal clearly that Wolfe adores what he's talking about.

 

We focus on finding people who are passionate about what they do (that's why we love biographical documentaries so much).

[duckens]

More advice:

 

1) When my kids are teens, I will assign that they  will read The Last Lecture.  It's not long (200 easy pages), but I just remember feeling so inspired when I read it.  I remember Dr. Pauch talking about people asking, "How did you become a tenured professor by age 30?"  He would answer that they should meet him in his office at 10pm on a Friday night.  The implication was that he was not out partying, and he used his time wisely to reach his goal.

 

Has anyone seen the lecture on Youtube yet?  I haven't.  :blush:

 

2) By the time they are teens, I am hoping that my kids will be hooked into TED Talks.   I would encourage them to keep (for their field) a list summarizing these amazing idea creators, their ideas, and their home universities.  This would also apply to research they see on Nova on PBS.

 

a) It is good to be well versed on the revolutionary ideas in your field.  It also makes you intelligent to talk to local mentors or potential professors in your field.

 

b ) I'm thinking GRAD SCHOOL!  Is a particular idea interesting to you?  Apply with that researcher for grad school.

 

c) Knowing the cutting edge ideas in your field can give my kids a jumping off idea for their own research questions, even if it is with a local professor.

 

3) I swear!  When my kids are teens, I am going to run a semester-long class on "Judge Judy, and Other TV Court Shows."  I want them to see a certain amount of how you can detract your life by getting involved romantically and financially with unethical people.  The standard fight is, "Yes, she paid for that [computer/car/free rent/subwoofer] for me, BUT IT WAS A GIFT."  Kids, good contracts make good friends.  And Documentation is your Friend.

 

[Soror]

First of all, I am jealous of you going to the NBF. :lol:

 

Your thoughts about moving into something project-based instead of cycle-based are very interesting to me, basically because I feel that is where my kids are forcing me right now. DS10 and DD9 are starting to get resistant when I move forward in this, that, or the other because they are really still very interested in what we are moving on from. I have always let them keep reading and working on things even as I move forward to keep us "on track" (rolling my eyes at myself a little here, LOL), but where in earlier years they took in the new themes with interest, they are now more likely to sit passively, tune out, and be positively antsy to get back to what they are already interested in. Interesting. Challenging, but interesting.

 

I recently went through Cathy Duffy's second book, her 101 book. I remembered that years ago in her 100 Choices book, unit studies, unschooling, and CM were the teaching styles in which I scored highest, so I wanted to see how much I've changed. Turns out I have not changed at all.. :lol: I've just spent years resisting my true nature. Now, I will not (cannot!) be an unschooler because it is a very poor choice for my inherent weaknesses, but I'm thinking that a progressive unit study framework is more likely to equal the project-based learning that my kids naturally crave, so I need to figure out how to give that more attention in school while still making sure I'm giving them a broad and rigorous progression in each subject. How to marry those...

LOL, I'm trying to figure this out, thus my other thread on the Gen Ed board I started this week.

 

I've been searching through Corraleno's posts lately as I think she really does this very well. She requires the basics Math and Latin iirc(for her son) formally done but then the rest is done in a interest led way. She provides the resources based on their interests but then they go from there.

 

So, for me I'm happy w/ our Math and Language Arts but content is up in the air. We're doing Middle Ages right now, loosely but he is already interested in this as I designed it around things I knew he found interesting. Science is up in the air, we finished The Elements and I haven't had time to prep the Gems guides yet, so I'm mostly just directing him to find some aspect of science to either read about or study in some way every day.

 

I'm just trying to sit back and figure out their interests and see what I can provide them with to encourage these interests. I've also been considering unit studies as well, which first really attracted me. I don't even know how much of classical I am, at least according to SWB. I've never been able to get much memorization done. I am not doing history or science in any type of cycles. If anything I lean more towards LCC.

[Farrar]

I agree that there is value in long-range thinking. I am realizing that up until now, I've only involved my kids in short-range planning. Because of my own negative history with blinders and long-range planning, I think the best next step for us is engaging in long-range thinking combined with mid-range planning. I think we can learn about the myriad choices they will have as adults, the veritable cornucopia of options out there for them, and that they will have favorites, but that our plans to support those interests always have a no-self-judgement exit loop to let them back out to explore other things. Leaving my path too late left me much worse off than letting myself "off the hook" for it earlier would have.

 

The way I envision my kids' education is such that it will be broad and rigorous while allowing extra time and attention for passions as they pop up and evolve. To me, this is necessary so that when and if passions change, there is at least a solid baseline of understanding and skill in any given area on which they can fall back instead of a feeling of having to start from scratch or play an overwhelming amount of catch-up. If they stay the course and don't change paths, they will still have the benefit of being well-rounded.

 

Yes.  That's how I see it too.  I like the way you put that about long range thinking.  That's exactly it.  (Also, an aside, the book festival stuff we went to was pretty excellent.)

 

The project-based stuff is also where I see me being pulled soon.  I have this sense now that at the end of this year, I will have exposed my kids to a little bit of everything in history, science, culture, world religions, technology, etc.  And it's not like we can't just go do it all again.  I mean, if they remember more than a dozen names from ancient history, I'd be floored at this point.  To them, it was so long ago that we did it that it may as well be ancient times.  And doing it all again, we'd get into more depth.  But how much?  I'm not sure if it would be the level of depth we could get to if we did less.  And I'm not sure it would foster that sense of pushing through and really developing a deeper interest.  I don't get a lot of resistance about moving on.  My kids are almost always happy to keep going or move on (and stay on track!  I do that too) but I think I'd like them to have more of an opinion!  I mean, to want to follow up more on something.  But I don't see how they can unless I give them that opportunity and right now I haven't been really.

 

I don't see traditional college as the only possible path.  I am with you that it's so hard not to think about this stuff through one's own lens.  No one ever did any real long range thinking with me whatsoever.  I was always "smart" so it was always assumed that I'd go to college.  But I didn't always make stellar grades outside of history and English, so my opinions were more limited as to where.  And then once I went to college - a very good four year liberal arts college, which I found dull and finished in three - no one talked to me about what to do with that.  It was all just, "study what you like and you'll have a college degree and then you can figure it out."  Ack.  I ended up without any real sense of where I was going and completely adrift.  So I really don't want that for my kids.  And I want them to think practically not just "study whatever" and to really consider what path or paths they might consider following.  And to do it early enough that they're not 17 yo and realizing that it's "too late" to study the things they need to go to the college that might lead to the job they want.  Of course, it's never completely too late.  There are always ways back.  But they can get harder.

[PeacefulChaos]

This thread is so interesting to me.  :)

I've never really thought much about including the kids in their education, but granted, they are young.  :P  I've always known that I WANT them to be involved at some point, I just don't know WHEN.  Link still has ideas about what he wants to be that I'm not sure are realistic - they almost always have something to do with being a scientist of various types, and I'm not sure he has much of an idea what any of them actually do. 

Also, neither of my boys - or Pink, for that matter, but she's 4, so who knows where her answers come from! :lol: - have a whole lot of ideas for their future at all.  Which is fine - but in a way, when I ask if they have any idea about what they might enjoy trying to do when they are older or anything like that, and they answer 'I really don't know... there isn't really anything.'  I kind of go :001_huh: :confused:  ... Is that normal?  :lol:  I guess I just always remember 'wanting' to do something even if it wasn't logical - being an astronaut or a singer or whatever.  On one hand I'm cool with it because they usually say they just like being kids now, and I want them to enjoy each stage of their life as it happens, but at the same time I'm like... do I have total slackers on my hands or what?! :D (That last bit is a bit tongue-in-cheek ;) )

 

[Soror]

My ds says he wants to be an engineer and seems inclined that way. Dd usually says she just wants to be a mom or a pizza delivery driver. She is the very people orientated type, like 8's daughter above. I think she would do well in nursing, she is also creative as well, she NEEDS to make things in a way that I don't understand and she has such great empathy. I've often thought about how I can go about nurturing their inherent strengths and interests. Both of my oldest are quite different than I am in a number of ways though so it has been a bit challenging.

[8filltheheart]

First of all, I am jealous of you going to the NBF. :lol:

 

I agree that there is value in long-range thinking. I am realizing that up until now, I've only involved my kids in short-range planning. Because of my own negative history with blinders and long-range planning, I think the best next step for us is engaging in long-range thinking combined with mid-range planning. I think we can learn about the myriad choices they will have as adults, the veritable cornucopia of options out there for them, and that they will have favorites, but that our plans to support those interests always have a no-self-judgement exit loop to let them back out to explore other things. Leaving my path too late left me much worse off than letting myself "off the hook" for it earlier would have.

 

The way I envision my kids' education is such that it will be broad and rigorous while allowing extra time and attention for passions as they pop up and evolve. To me, this is necessary so that when and if passions change, there is at least a solid baseline of understanding and skill in any given area on which they can fall back instead of a feeling of having to start from scratch or play an overwhelming amount of catch-up. If they stay the course and don't change paths, they will still have the benefit of being well-rounded.

 

Your thoughts about moving into something project-based instead of cycle-based are very interesting to me, basically because I feel that is where my kids are forcing me right now. DS10 and DD9 are starting to get resistant when I move forward in this, that, or the other because they are really still very interested in what we are moving on from. I have always let them keep reading and working on things even as I move forward to keep us "on track" (rolling my eyes at myself a little here, LOL), but where in earlier years they took in the new themes with interest, they are now more likely to sit passively, tune out, and be positively antsy to get back to what they are already interested in. Interesting. Challenging, but interesting.

 

I recently went through Cathy Duffy's second book, her 101 book. I remembered that years ago in her 100 Choices book, unit studies, unschooling, and CM were the teaching styles in which I scored highest, so I wanted to see how much I've changed. Turns out I have not changed at all.. :lol: I've just spent years resisting my true nature. Now, I will not (cannot!) be an unschooler because it is a very poor choice for my inherent weaknesses, but I'm thinking that a progressive unit study framework is more likely to equal the project-based learning that my kids naturally crave, so I need to figure out how to give that more attention in school while still making sure I'm giving them a broad and rigorous progression in each subject. How to marry those...

 

It really is not that hard to marry passions and breadth simultaneously.   If you could see ds's transcript, it looks completely skewed on the one hand.   I mean he has 9 astronomy/physics credits.   Seems a tad unbalanced.   But, he also has 2 yrs of chemistry and 1 yr of biology.   He has 6 foreign lang credits, 2 philosophy, 2 theology, etc.   So, while his physics and math do dominate his transcript, if you peeled them off, he actually has more breadth on his transcript than most high schoolers do w/o his areas of concentration.

 

I am not a PBL person in the way it is presented on the forum.   I can't quite wrap my head around the directed-unschoolishness of the way people describe it.   But, we have our own groove and that method works for our family and my kids blossom and have passions/interests and the opportunity to explore them as much as they want and in as many directions as they want.

 

BUT.....back to your original thoughts......passion and interests don't alway line up well with careers.  ;)   Dd loved chemistry and it is why she thought she wanted to major in chemistry/biochem/medicine, etc.   I am definitely waving my hands, yes, let them help you forge the path vs. dictating it.   But, don't necessarily expect that to lead them toward their dream career either.   It may (definitely for my oldest and youngest sons that is true), but it may not.   Just throwing it out there that it isn't necessarily just that easy to find the answer.

[Farrar]

BUT.....back to your original thoughts......passion and interests don't alway line up well with careers.  ;)   Dd loved chemistry and it is why she thought she wanted to major in chemistry/biochem/medicine, etc.   I am definitely waving my hands, yes, let them help you forge the path vs. dictating it.   But, don't necessarily expect that to lead them toward their dream career either.   It may (definitely for my oldest and youngest sons that is true), but it may not.   Just throwing it out there that it isn't necessarily just that easy to find the answer.

 

This is good to think about.  I don't know about Alte Veste, but for me, I guess it's my hope that even if doing long range thinking doesn't lead to a career path, that it is practice for a career path and practice for doing that type of thinking in life, because I think it is necessary.  So yeah, the one thing that either of my kids have done any long range thinking about is ds with ballet.  We've talked about which school to be in, the time commitment that it will take, the fact that he needs to stretch every day, etc.  Do I think he'll actually ever be a professional dancer?  Honestly, it seems pretty unlikely.  But if he follows that path for a while longer, then maybe it will serve as practice for following other paths that also take a long time to get to a goal.  And also how to recognize when it's a passion that is for pleasure, but won't ever be for money.

[Pen]

This is good to think about.  I don't know about Alte Veste, but for me, I guess it's my hope that even if doing long range thinking doesn't lead to a career path, that it is practice for a career path and practice for doing that type of thinking in life, because I think it is necessary.  So yeah, the one thing that either of my kids have done any long range thinking about is ds with ballet.  We've talked about which school to be in, the time commitment that it will take, the fact that he needs to stretch every day, etc.  Do I think he'll actually ever be a professional dancer?  Honestly, it seems pretty unlikely.  But if he follows that path for a while longer, then maybe it will serve as practice for following other paths that also take a long time to get to a goal.  And also how to recognize when it's a passion that is for pleasure, but won't ever be for money.

 

I agree that it is important!

 

It reminds me of a college friend who was upset with her parents for not having supported her dream of being a ballerina.  I recall thinking that I thought her parents were probably right to have pushed her more in academics since the chances she could have been a professional ballerina (especially as she insisted on classical ballet, not modern or anything else, and she was not built like a ballerina, and there are so very many girls wanting to do that and so very few who will make it).  So, she was able to have a good career and take dance lessons as a hobby.  But still, she was always upset, always--to the point I lost contact with her at 30-something--believed that she could have been a ballerina if only they had supported her in it.

 

This makes me think it might also be important to either discuss with children the reasons for not supporting a goal in the way they want if one is not going to do so--might be lack of resources to do so, or feeling that the time/energy is better spent in another way, or alternatively in having them go ahead and go for it, and see what they can do or not do, and maybe learn for themselves instead of always having it be an "if only".  

 

Dancing at any rate is a good hobby, and gives excellent physical exercise (especially I think for boys who are not perhaps so hard on the feet as the girls), and also perhaps chance to perform for others, so it gives a lot of benefits even if it never goes anywhere as a career.  Statistically though, I think a boy with some talent/right build/dedication to hard work and practice at it, has a better chance than a girl to have it become a career because so many fewer boys try for it.

[8filltheheart]

.  Do I think he'll actually ever be a professional dancer?  Honestly, it seems pretty unlikely.  But if he follows that path for a while longer, then maybe it will serve as practice for following other paths that also take a long time to get to a goal.  And also how to recognize when it's a passion that is for pleasure, but won't ever be for money.

 

Have you  chatted with Jenny in FL?   I think he wants to go to college and major in dance.   She has several posts on the college board about their exploring the option.

 

[Pen]

Continuing onward...

 Basically, I'm wondering how you talk to your kids about the long view (course work leading up to high school then to college, work ethic and habits that build success through the years, etc.).

 

 

 

 

 

At around 5th grade age I got some books about careers...they have still not really been read or used, but I think even getting them was a sign that it was something to start thinking about.  

 

Also, summer before last, my ds was asked if he wanted to do a summer architecture program for kids with a friend from B&M school days.   My ds decided he did not want to have a long part of the summer spent indoors in a classroom and wanted to be outside, but the idea that there was such a thing and that other parents were also thinking about what their children might be interested in (the friend's dad is an architect) was also a step toward thinking about this.  

 

We saw Gifted Hands movie too around that time, and talked about Ben Carson's trajectory from not being able to do much in school to surgeon, and also about Carson's ideas about kids being better off working on school than practicing to try to be  basketball stars, since the latter is unlikely.  We also talked about how matching something to someone's skills is important.  Carson had the intellectual ability and also the hand-eye coordination to be a skilled surgeon, and also the passion to do so, and the drive to do the work it took.  

 

He also played a game, is it "Life"? which a friend has and shows how different career choices make more money than other, and then came and asked me about that at one point.

 

All of these things then become subjects that we can return to when we are discussing this sort of subject.

[Alte Veste Academy]

First bolded part: that's us too but I think I've eased up a little bit on the my moving forward. What I mean is I have not eased up on the moving forward itself but I've eased up on feeling bad about not moving forward with *my* objectives being the priority because I do see now the benefit of allowing him to move forward with *his* objectives foremost, realizing that he will reach those levels of progress I had envisioned with *my* objectives anyway...just at a different pace, sometimes sooner, sometimes slower, sometimes the same. I think I am realizing that as long as this kid really enjoys learning, continues to be curious and driven by his own internal engine-that-could, we are still going to reach the same or a similar end result to what I keep hoping for.

 

Second bolded: I'm grinning widely here. I took a test like that back in 2007 when we were going to start homeschooling officially with K. The test was on a charter school website (I forget which). I scored very highly in the unit study/ project based category. But I kept fighting it, kept thinking I need to be more structured than that. Then burned out trying to impose that structure, eased back and I think I have now found my mix of structure+laid back. Still not confident winging the PBL approach but I don't think my son is a 100% project lover anyway so we're good for now. :)

 

Someone up-thread also mentioned mentors. I forgot to mention how useful that has been for us. That's something DS and I talk about a lot. When he meets with his math mentor, the excitement is electric when they are solving a good math problem. We talk about that excitement. How his mentor is so much older (60's) but how crazy he still is about what he does. So he obviously loves it right? How can you achieve that, kiddo? It starts with identifying what he can do with his life where he can do it over and over and not be super bored by it (important for a kid who gets bored fast). It's maybe not even "work/ a job" when you pursue something like that. We talk about how animated his music teacher gets when he discusses jazz greats. We discuss George Wolfe a lot (the Thinkwell Bio guy) because you can see so crystal clearly that Wolfe adores what he's talking about.

 

We focus on finding people who are passionate about what they do (that's why we love biographical documentaries so much).

 

Yes, I thought I was being quite accommodating to let them keep working on the material they find interesting even as we continue on to new stuff. Really, isn't that nice of me? :tongue_smilie: And I have been occasionally secretly grateful when we hit something that they are kind of blah about so that we can keep a smidge of forward momentum. :lol:

 

Fighting your own nature is hard, but I can't embrace my nature fully either, really, because my kids are different from me. They need different things from me and from each other. And I don't know a lot for sure, but I am positive that letting go of routine and plans too much would be a disaster here.

 

Love the idea of mentors. DD especially has been wanting to start volunteer work with cat rescues. She is too young to go alone but we did find a place where if I volunteered, she could go with me. You know...in all my free time... Anyway, I see great benefit in opportunities like that. It's someplace she could find a great mentor one day. DS10 is harder, for a variety of reasons.

[Alte Veste Academy]

More advice:

 

1) When my kids are teens, I will assign that they  will read The Last Lecture.  It's not long (200 easy pages), but I just remember feeling so inspired when I read it.  I remember Dr. Pauch talking about people asking, "How did you become a tenured professor by age 30?"  He would answer that they should meet him in his office at 10pm on a Friday night.  The implication was that he was not out partying, and he used his time wisely to reach his goal.

 

Has anyone seen the lecture on Youtube yet?  I haven't.  :blush:

 

2) By the time they are teens, I am hoping that my kids will be hooked into TED Talks.   I would encourage them to keep (for their field) a list summarizing these amazing idea creators, their ideas, and their home universities.  This would also apply to research they see on Nova on PBS.

 

a) It is good to be well versed on the revolutionary ideas in your field.  It also makes you intelligent to talk to local mentors or potential professors in your field.

 

b ) I'm thinking GRAD SCHOOL!  Is a particular idea interesting to you?  Apply with that researcher for grad school.

 

c) Knowing the cutting edge ideas in your field can give my kids a jumping off idea for their own research questions, even if it is with a local professor.

 

3) I swear!  When my kids are teens, I am going to run a semester-long class on "Judge Judy, and Other TV Court Shows."  I want them to see a certain amount of how you can detract your life by getting involved romantically and financially with unethical people.  The standard fight is, "Yes, she paid for that [computer/car/free rent/subwoofer] for me, BUT IT WAS A GIFT."  Kids, good contracts make good friends.  And Documentation is your Friend.

 

You do have some good ideas! Thanks!

 

I have had DS10 watch some TED talks. He really likes them! There was a kids tab at the TED site, I think. Can't remember exactly how I found them. Good stuff though! We watch tons of documentaries, but I would like to find more that are biographical. The reality TV is eye-opening too. Although not completely like real life, my kids all like Chopped on FoodTV. I talk to them about how I used to get periodic performance reviews. Yeah, that's life; someone besides your mom is going to tell you what you're doing wrong. The difference is they won't hug you when they've finished...and they just might fire you. :lol: (ETA: I would like to take this opportunity to say that I have never been fired! LOL)

 

 

[Alte Veste Academy]

LOL, I'm trying to figure this out, thus my other thread on the Gen Ed board I started this week.

 

I've been searching through Corraleno's posts lately as I think she really does this very well. She requires the basics Math and Latin iirc(for her son) formally done but then the rest is done in a interest led way. She provides the resources based on their interests but then they go from there.

 

So, for me I'm happy w/ our Math and Language Arts but content is up in the air. We're doing Middle Ages right now, loosely but he is already interested in this as I designed it around things I knew he found interesting. Science is up in the air, we finished The Elements and I haven't had time to prep the Gems guides yet, so I'm mostly just directing him to find some aspect of science to either read about or study in some way every day.

 

I'm just trying to sit back and figure out their interests and see what I can provide them with to encourage these interests. I've also been considering unit studies as well, which first really attracted me. I don't even know how much of classical I am, at least according to SWB. I've never been able to get much memorization done. I am not doing history or science in any type of cycles. If anything I lean more towards LCC.

 

I have always admired Corraleno. We tend that way here. I am not comfortable going quite that far in an interest led way though. The kids get a lot of input in what we study, means of output, routine, etc., but letting it get too loose isn't good for us. We're not really having problems with school though. School is going really well. I probably do need to tweak the speed of our forward progress (mostly in history and, to a lesser degree, in science). That will be a good discussion for us this week. But otherwise, the ratio of planned to interest-led is not bad. I think I might just need to tweak how I look at things. Instead of seeing Early Modern History from 1600-1850, I need to think of it in terms of progressive chunks of time and it's OK if we spend 6 weeks in one and one week in another. I basically did American history as a chronological series of unit studies. I put that together myself and was blissfully happy to be able to begin using SOTW and OUP, but maybe I got too far away from determining our own speed too.

 

Anyway, that really is a separate issue. LOL

[Pen]

I enjoyed getting caught up on all the posts up to my own last one.   Lots of good ideas and interesting things to think about here!

 

Now again continuing with my replies to the very first OP post:

 

 

AVA:  "Then also, how do you personally balance and discuss what you know about the long view with the day-to-day work in your homeschool? "

 

reply:  Well, I have an idea of what is needed to get to x point, and I  try to make sure we are more or less doing that.  Right now we are on  "extended summer" program which means officially only math is scheduled, but I have been watching what ds actually does in an unschool sort of way, and will only add the things I think are really missing when we get into a heavier schedule.  I got his agreement that we would go light now while the weather is still pretty good for outdoor things, and then do longer school days during the cold, wet dreary season to make up for it.   But he reads a lot every day.  He has been studying cooking.  Today he was learning about the Great Rift in Africa--spent most of the day on that while it was raining.   And so anything like that I see him running with on his own I'm going to accept--and also be aware that it is really learning, such that he is actually doing a fairly normal amount of school right now--only no grammar, writing, or language--those will have to be added in our long winter.  And I expect that some of the interest-led learning is important toward finding his vocations and avocations.

 

I have not actually specifically discussed how the day to day relates to the long term.  I would like to do so, now that you mention it!

[Alte Veste Academy]

Yes.  That's how I see it too.  I like the way you put that about long range thinking.  That's exactly it.  (Also, an aside, the book festival stuff we went to was pretty excellent.)

 

The project-based stuff is also where I see me being pulled soon.  I have this sense now that at the end of this year, I will have exposed my kids to a little bit of everything in history, science, culture, world religions, technology, etc.  And it's not like we can't just go do it all again.  I mean, if they remember more than a dozen names from ancient history, I'd be floored at this point.  To them, it was so long ago that we did it that it may as well be ancient times.  And doing it all again, we'd get into more depth.  But how much?  I'm not sure if it would be the level of depth we could get to if we did less.  And I'm not sure it would foster that sense of pushing through and really developing a deeper interest.  I don't get a lot of resistance about moving on.  My kids are almost always happy to keep going or move on (and stay on track!  I do that too) but I think I'd like them to have more of an opinion!  I mean, to want to follow up more on something.  But I don't see how they can unless I give them that opportunity and right now I haven't been really.

 

I don't see traditional college as the only possible path.  I am with you that it's so hard not to think about this stuff through one's own lens.  No one ever did any real long range thinking with me whatsoever.  I was always "smart" so it was always assumed that I'd go to college.  But I didn't always make stellar grades outside of history and English, so my opinions were more limited as to where.  And then once I went to college - a very good four year liberal arts college, which I found dull and finished in three - no one talked to me about what to do with that.  It was all just, "study what you like and you'll have a college degree and then you can figure it out."  Ack.  I ended up without any real sense of where I was going and completely adrift.  So I really don't want that for my kids.  And I want them to think practically not just "study whatever" and to really consider what path or paths they might consider following.  And to do it early enough that they're not 17 yo and realizing that it's "too late" to study the things they need to go to the college that might lead to the job they want.  Of course, it's never completely too late.  There are always ways back.  But they can get harder.

 

I figure that as long as my kids are engaged, it's all good. I also think it's possible to do project-based in a sequential way. Hey! Maybe I'll sell that as a philosophy. SPB anyone? LOL For the nervous mom and the out-of-the-box kids! Pick something, anything, from each major topic and do something awesome with it! When we're all done, we'll check the box and move on.

 

Kidding. Sort of. Only a tiny bit, actually. :lol: I have a need (real, not ha ha) for accountability.

 

Yes, besides friends, I didn't talk to anyone about plans. And few young friends are going to be seasoned and wise enough to encourage a young woman to broaden her sights. Unfortunately for me! And, yeah, at college, they ask you what you want to major in but no one really asks you why, it seems. I want my kids to see the forest and enjoy climbing a few different trees.

[quark]

 

I enjoyed getting caught up on all the posts up to my own last one.   Lots of good ideas and interesting things to think about here!

 

I'm not the OP, but I wanted to thank you anyway for adding to the conversation, Pen. Your obviously thoughtful replies are very interesting for me to think about too. Thank you!

[Alte Veste Academy]

This thread is so interesting to me.  :)

I've never really thought much about including the kids in their education, but granted, they are young.  :p  I've always known that I WANT them to be involved at some point, I just don't know WHEN.  Link still has ideas about what he wants to be that I'm not sure are realistic - they almost always have something to do with being a scientist of various types, and I'm not sure he has much of an idea what any of them actually do. 

Also, neither of my boys - or Pink, for that matter, but she's 4, so who knows where her answers come from! :lol: - have a whole lot of ideas for their future at all.  Which is fine - but in a way, when I ask if they have any idea about what they might enjoy trying to do when they are older or anything like that, and they answer 'I really don't know... there isn't really anything.'  I kind of go :001_huh: :confused:  ... Is that normal?  :lol:  I guess I just always remember 'wanting' to do something even if it wasn't logical - being an astronaut or a singer or whatever.  On one hand I'm cool with it because they usually say they just like being kids now, and I want them to enjoy each stage of their life as it happens, but at the same time I'm like... do I have total slackers on my hands or what?! :D (That last bit is a bit tongue-in-cheek ;) )

 

I do think it's totally normal! And I don't know how to explain that I'm not so much ready for the magical thinking to go away as I am to just see a bit of realistic thinking begin to emerge.

[Alte Veste Academy]

It really is not that hard to marry passions and breadth simultaneously.   If you could see ds's transcript, it looks completely skewed on the one hand.   I mean he has 9 astronomy/physics credits.   Seems a tad unbalanced.   But, he also has 2 yrs of chemistry and 1 yr of biology.   He has 6 foreign lang credits, 2 philosophy, 2 theology, etc.   So, while his physics and math do dominate his transcript, if you peeled them off, he actually has more breadth on his transcript than most high schoolers do w/o his areas of concentration.

 

I am not a PBL person in the way it is presented on the forum.   I can't quite wrap my head around the directed-unschoolishness of the way people describe it.   But, we have our own groove and that method works for our family and my kids blossom and have passions/interests and the opportunity to explore them as much as they want and in as many directions as they want.

 

BUT.....back to your original thoughts......passion and interests don't alway line up well with careers.  ;)   Dd loved chemistry and it is why she thought she wanted to major in chemistry/biochem/medicine, etc.   I am definitely waving my hands, yes, let them help you forge the path vs. dictating it.   But, don't necessarily expect that to lead them toward their dream career either.   It may (definitely for my oldest and youngest sons that is true), but it may not.   Just throwing it out there that it isn't necessarily just that easy to find the answer.

 

Your son's transcripts makes perfect sense to me. The breadth of coverage is the forest and the astronomy/physics are a few giant sequoias he got very well acquainted with! :D

 

I am also not a PBL person the way most threads here paint it. I personally need more structure and long-term, sequential planning to counter my own personal weaknesses. What I do is talk with the kids about where we're headed (again though, just for the coming school year or the next thing we're covering) and give them lots of choice and power about what kind of intensive project-based learning they would like to do about that topic. They pick different things according to personal interest and voila, project-based learning that doesn't make mom crazy or fall off the path.

 

Your statement about passion and interests not always lining up with careers is interesting. I know some adults who are passionate about their hobbies but would not want to pursue those hobbies as careers. Something to ponder, anyway!

[Alte Veste Academy]

This is good to think about.  I don't know about Alte Veste, but for me, I guess it's my hope that even if doing long range thinking doesn't lead to a career path, that it is practice for a career path and practice for doing that type of thinking in life, because I think it is necessary.  So yeah, the one thing that either of my kids have done any long range thinking about is ds with ballet.  We've talked about which school to be in, the time commitment that it will take, the fact that he needs to stretch every day, etc.  Do I think he'll actually ever be a professional dancer?  Honestly, it seems pretty unlikely.  But if he follows that path for a while longer, then maybe it will serve as practice for following other paths that also take a long time to get to a goal.  And also how to recognize when it's a passion that is for pleasure, but won't ever be for money.

 

I think purposefully encouraging divergent thinking about what life could hold based on personal choices is pretty close to a perfect representation of what I'm getting at here!

 

[Alte Veste Academy]

I agree that it is important!

 

It reminds me of a college friend who was upset with her parents for not having supported her dream of being a ballerina.  I recall thinking that I thought her parents were probably right to have pushed her more in academics since the chances she could have been a professional ballerina (especially as she insisted on classical ballet, not modern or anything else, and she was not built like a ballerina, and there are so very many girls wanting to do that and so very few who will make it).  So, she was able to have a good career and take dance lessons as a hobby.  But still, she was always upset, always--to the point I lost contact with her at 30-something--believed that she could have been a ballerina if only they had supported her in it.

 

This makes me think it might also be important to either discuss with children the reasons for not supporting a goal in the way they want if one is not going to do so--might be lack of resources to do so, or feeling that the time/energy is better spent in another way, or alternatively in having them go ahead and go for it, and see what they can do or not do, and maybe learn for themselves instead of always having it be an "if only".  

 

Dancing at any rate is a good hobby, and gives excellent physical exercise (especially I think for boys who are not perhaps so hard on the feet as the girls), and also perhaps chance to perform for others, so it gives a lot of benefits even if it never goes anywhere as a career.  Statistically though, I think a boy with some talent/right build/dedication to hard work and practice at it, has a better chance than a girl to have it become a career because so many fewer boys try for it.

 

Aw come on now. You're making me feel bad about not signing my DD up for gymnastics! :lol:

 

 

 

[Alte Veste Academy]

Continuing onward...

 

At around 5th grade age I got some books about careers...they have still not really been read or used, but I think even getting them was a sign that it was something to start thinking about.  

 

Also, summer before last, my ds was asked if he wanted to do a summer architecture program for kids with a friend from B&M school days.   My ds decided he did not want to have a long part of the summer spent indoors in a classroom and wanted to be outside, but the idea that there was such a thing and that other parents were also thinking about what their children might be interested in (the friend's dad is an architect) was also a step toward thinking about this.  

 

We saw Gifted Hands movie too around that time, and talked about Ben Carson's trajectory from not being able to do much in school to surgeon, and also about Carson's ideas about kids being better off working on school than practicing to try to be  basketball stars, since the latter is unlikely.  We also talked about how matching something to someone's skills is important.  Carson had the intellectual ability and also the hand-eye coordination to be a skilled surgeon, and also the passion to do so, and the drive to do the work it took.  

 

He also played a game, is it "Life"? which a friend has and shows how different career choices make more money than other, and then came and asked me about that at one point.

 

All of these things then become subjects that we can return to when we are discussing this sort of subject.

 

Will look for books about careers. Thanks! I appreciate the movie recommendation too. I bet he would love that. I am really starting to get the feeling that reading even more bios might be the easiest way to start a conversation about life choices.

[JennW in SoCal]

What the heck is a PBL person?  Am I one?!!  LoL  :laugh:

 

Too many threads within this thread to respond in any rational manner to everything.  Just wanted to throw in a few random thoughts.

 

You all have kids so very different from my own!  Mine NEVER wanted to know my philosophy, never wanted to discuss long term educational goals until they were perhaps 13 or 14. Or older.   Of course they had their interests, and I indulged those interests because I'm one of those directed unschooler oxymoronic types.  I never really talked about college, or what they would need to succeed in college -- we were too busy exploring the world, their interests, and doing basic school-skills kinds of academics.  My youngest must have been 14 or 15 when I explained to him what unschooling is and he was utterly aghast!  

 

Mentors are fantastic.  Whether it is a teacher for an outsourced academic subject, a music, theater or dance teacher or athletic coach, or as my kids had as teens an adult teaching adult-level skills, a mentor really helps kids learn how to be a grown up while unlocking the deeper mysteries of whatever subject of skill they are teaching.   In the earlier years we read some biographies, we'd talk with people about the cool jobs they had and how they came to have them.  My oldest even wrote to the head of Disney Imagineering once and in reply got a stack of letters different Imagineers had written over the years in answer to the question, "How do you become an Imagineer?"  My ds, bless his heart, at the age of 12, was utterly disgusted and disenchanted with the lot of them because each letter talked about the importance of a well-rounded education!  At the age of 12 he thought all school of any kind was a stupid waste of time!!  (And yes he did go onto college, though it was a professional school and most decidedly NOT a liberal arts school!)

 

I never *required* projects.  The interest led and project based work my kids did arose mostly from their own unlimited fount of ideas and creative impulses.  Sometimes it was simply a way for me to harness their passionate interests into working on a skill such as writing.  Or to help them to hone their research skills to find out more about something that fascinated them.  I did not want to formalize everything -- it would have sucked the joy out of it for them.  I mostly stayed out of their way and provided resources for their interests, whether it meant lots of driving or just leaving them alone with piles of craft supplies or legos, or letting them have full use of the camcorder.  

[Pen]

more continuing 

 

 

 

AVA:   "...   how do you make sure you keep talking about it. (And a note here, because I know you're out there... Telling me that these conversations just spring up naturally will not be helpful to me in the least, because apparently things are not working that way here or I wouldn't have this question to begin with.  )"

 

 

my reply:  

They don't spring up naturally exactly, but being alert for moments that lend themselves--or doing things to tend to create such moments-- can make them seem to "spring up" rather than trying to bring it up out of thin air.  Because in his case, a year ago or so, ds had seemed to not have any interest in or aspirations beyond the present moment and had had a resistant to school phase,  getting books or movies (such as mentioned in my last post) was something that I did quite deliberately to help it to "spring up" --and perhaps initiating conversation then about the aspects of the books or films I wanted to get at with "what do you think about_____" type questions.   

 

More recently, sometimes a friend of his will say something that will make it "spring up".    Such as at one point he heard a friend, then starting high school, whose mom was tryng to get the friend to take college prep type courses, and the friend did not want to.  The mom was explaining that she felt sorry that she did not get to go to college and wanted her son to.   Or, another time, while I was driving a different friend said her dad had said there was something called Ivy Covered Colleges (sic) and I  explained a bit  about that, and said I had been to one, and if the friend (whose dad did not go to college) wanted to know about that, or the sort of path it takes to do that, I would be very willing to discuss that.  I hope if ds wants to know about how to get into a trade the friend's father would be willing to tell ds, because I am likely as clueless about how to do that as the friend's father is about college paths, maybe more so.

 

Anyway, if I am alert to these, I can tend to make it happen without some awkward, now we are going to sit down and talk about your future, sort of beginning, which for my ds would cause a shutdown.  Or, I can deliberately bring materials into play that tend to make these conversations happen more easily.   

 

I can also use things that ds is reading anyway--for example, to think about how Harry Potter, if he wants to be an ?Auror?  (I forget what it was called), it takes certain classes at Hogwarts to be able to get into training for that...    and there is a point where it seems he won't be able to do it because his grade in the Owl level was not high enough to take the advanced level in potions, a required class.   That is not so different than real life planning for careers.

 

 

Now it looks like I have a lot more posts to catch up on reading!

 

[Sahamamama]

I just keep that mess in my head. Until now, apparently. :D (I'm teasing you, AVA).

 

To be clear, I do talk to my kids about their education. But now I'm thinking I do it in a childish, piddly way instead of a long-term partnership kind of way. [snip] I am not helping them develop a long view. A new phrase has entered my brain.

 

He expressed interest, like I was revealing to him some secret truth I knew and he didn't. You were revealing great secrets. ;)

 

Basically, I'm wondering how you talk to your kids about the long view. [snip] How do you... balance and discuss what you know about the long view with the day-to-day work in your homeschool? [snip] How do you make sure you keep talking about it?

 

When kids are in school, they see those ahead of them and get a sense of a trajectory; they know what's coming. When I was in school, NO ONE EVER sat me down and said, "This is where you are, this is where you want to be, this is how you get there." NO ONE. So, really, no. Perhaps some students in school get this, or see it somehow, but not me. This is one of my great irritations about my PS so-called education -- that it started in a fog and ended in a fog, with no greater clarity of purpose or method or vision. There was no vision. There were only classes and assignments and papers and tests, from Kindergarten to Graduation, but no vision, no over-arching purpose for being there, other than that was the expectation.

 

• Developing personal and educational goals, eventually with the kid taking the lead
• Mutually choosing a philosophy; getting buy-in for the philosophy; tweaking the philosophy together
• Evaluating and working with strengths and weaknesses (DS10 and I have been working through Smart But Scattered together, win/win!)
• Discussing and improving work ethic
• Encouraging self-starting
• Working on organization
• Talking seriously about cause and effect (what we work on now builds skills for later, and how)

 

My children are even younger than yours, so get out the salt. ;)

 

I think you hit the nail on the head with the phrase "a long-term partnership kind of way." That is what you could start aiming at with your oldest, drawing him in to what is in your head/planner, showing him what you read, showing him how you research and make choices, asking for input, discussing what you chose and why.

 

1. Show them & discuss the short-term goals, materials, and reasons why (current school year): My oldest is nearing nine, my twins are almost seven. For the past two years (yup), when we start the new school year, we meet together to talk about the upcoming year. We go over what the materials are, what we will call them (e.g., The Ordinary Parent's Guide to Teaching Reading becomes "OPG" or "The Reading Lesson Book"), where they will be stored, and so on. We go over routines, too, but that's different from sharing the vision for the year. When we first start the year, we lay out ALL the things we will use and do. This creates great excitement and enthusiasm for getting to all the lovely books, materials, art supplies (especially :rolleyes: ), and whatever else we put out in the line-up. FWIW, we never finish it all, LOL. But at the beginning of the year, we talk about what we've lined up for each level and as a group. For example, I'll say, "In Science this year, we will be studying Weather and Water (explanation, show materials). We'll also do Daily Science (explanation, show materials), and Nature Study (explanation, show materials). In History this year, we'll be continuing with The American Story (explanation, show materials), and in Geography, we'll continue our work with States and Capitals (explanation, show materials). In Christian Discipleship this year, we'll....." And so on. They ask questions, I ask questions, they talk about their own goals, I give the "work hard" speech, and so on. It's like First Day Show and Tell for the Homeschool Line-Up. Then we get to work on the day-to-day stuff. So, about an hour once a year for that.
2. Show them the progress they are making towards the goals, completing the material, or why/how the reasons for something have shifted. About every quarter (nine weeks for us), we very informally talk about how the school year is going. I just realized this almost always happens while we are all folding laundry. ? :001_huh:? Anyway, we talk about finishing this part of Math or that chapter book or that unit or whatever. We talk about what is up ahead, if we are "behind" or "ahead" in our work, and I even tell them that no matter what Mommy's stupid checklist says, they are never behind in the truest sense, they are beautiful, genius children who work hard and fold laundry nicely. ;) They understand that I am Box Checker Mother, and they are okay with that defect in my personality. A periodic checking-in like this seems to help all of us stay motivated in November, February, May, and August (we're year-rounders, sort of). So, about 15 minutes, four times a year.
3. Show them the longer term plans that you have for them as individual students. My oldest, in particular, likes to sneak up behind me while I am researching or planning. She reads over my shoulder. She now has to pay me a quarter every time I catch her doing this. However, she does have an interest in the long-term plan, just like your son did. It's funny, she has the same reaction to learning what's in my head -- it's like I'm sharing a special secret. LOL. I usually get, "Hmm... that's interesting, Mommy, thanks for sharing that with me. I like talking about homeschool stuff with you, and what you're thinking about it." So cute. I think our children can see us planning like fiends, and never know what we're doing all that while, unless we pull them to us, put an arm around them, and share and explain. Anyway, she has seen THE PLAN. Yes, she has seen it, and lived to tell about it. She has seen The Plan to Home Educate You Until the Year of Our Lord 2024, which lays it all out, Sister. In grid format. With colored fonts. So. The child survived the glimpse into her educational future.
4. Show them where you hide your dark chocolate. Because, after a child has seen The Plan, that child will need to know #4.
5. Sometime around 5th grade, begin to talk about how Education works, or can work. This is my plan, anyway. Haven't done it yet, but sometimes it comes up with oldest (3rd grader this year). We'll make a chart or time-line:

Baby--Preschooler--PreK-K-1-2-3-4-5 (you are here)-6-7-8-9-10-11-12-College? [F, Soph, J, S]--Graduate School? [Master's degrees, etc.]--Doctoral degrees?

 

In this post, I can't put in all the branches and permutations, such as trades or internships or non-traditional paths to somewhere. I don't think I'd get into all that with a 5th grader, anyway, especially not one I hoped would pursue the most academic path available at that point (later in the game is more her choice). But you get the idea.

 

We would talk about how the learning begins at birth, then progresses naturally at home in infancy. We would discuss the Primary Years (PreK, K, 1, 2), the work we did at those levels, and how she is so far beyond all that basic A-B-C stuff. LOL. She would love that!

 

We would discuss 3rd and 4th grades, how they were a bit harder than the Primary Years, and how 5th is going to be even harder! Hint, hint. We'd talk about how and when we added in things, like Latin and French and Music Theory (or whatever), and how long you can study each and why it's important to keep going with languages and music (or whatever I decide to say when we get there).

 

We would then look ahead, become familiar with the terms. "Middle school." "High school." "Credit." "Course." "Syllabus." "Transcript." "College application process." "Financial aid." "Scholarships." "Major." "Minor." And so on. How are students supposed to know how the system works, unless we explicitly explain it to them? They may not even know that the first-year students are called "freshmen," or that college costs money, or that they may earn scholarships, other basic facts that pertain to school life.

 

In looking ahead, I would once again pull out The Plan. We would look at what has been accomplished, and at what is left to do. Fifth or sixth grade is a nice half-way point, with enough time before high school to give the student some time to process and make adjustments in work ethic, outlook, personal initiative, and goals. I'm hoping that in two years, she'll be ready for more input on how it all works down the road, what course follows on another, how education accumulates and integrates into a meaningful whole, and so on.

 

For example, I plan to explain how Math and Science build on themselves. What is the sequence? How far will you, the student, plan to go in that sequence? What are your options? What will doing three years of Math mean, as opposed to doing four years? What will it mean for you if you don't complete Physics? What courses are absolutely NOT optional, in Mom's opinion? What could be negotiated as perhaps optional? Why or why not?

 

What will the trajectory be for other subjects? What materials do we think we may use? Why? What is the student's learning style? How does that impact what we study and what materials we use?

 

That's the plan at this point. For me the main thing I keep in mind is that there is a time and season for sharing "what's in my head," and I'm hoping to know intuitively what and when to share. If I told my young children all that's in there, they would run to the school bus, LOL. ;) Slowly, but steadily, I am going to transfer, not only the vision, but the responsibility, firmly over to them. "This is your education, not mine. I've already done _____ grade."

[maize]

I haven't read the whole thread yet but want to thank those who have contributed, it is making me think about involving my kids more intentionally in discussing and planning their education.

[Pen]

Aw come on now. You're making me feel bad about not signing my DD up for gymnastics! :lol:

 

 

I don't meant to do that!

 

I tend toward the "simplicity parenting" and avoid the "Hurried Child" syndrome side.   Ds is allowed to try one thing per whatever, semester, year, however it might run, and we both have input in it.    Actually, one thing of his choice, and if I insist on something else, then it does not count against his own choice.

 

I thought the friend whose parents did not go for all out for ballet with her did the right thing, by and large, in so far as I think she realistically had no chance to become professional in it (despite her thought that she might have), and also I do not think they could have done it actually with other children and their own jobs and so on.   But I also saw the long term angst about it.  Gymnastics was something lots of parents were doing with their kids, when he was at B&M and he had one time at a gymnastics place for a birthday and loved it, but I nixed it because it did not seem realistic for us, nor anything that would make for a lifetime hobby for him either.  

 

Musical instrument otoh, I did have him at least try for a year, not because I thought he would be a musician, but I thought it is a good thing to have, but I did not insist he continue with it.    Though I do mention it from time to time, and I will say things like the age you are at now is a good age for learning an instrument, would you like to try again?   But if the answer is no, that is okay.  It is a lot of time and energy and expense for me, particularly since we live in the country and it is a long drive to get to a teacher.

 

We actually face a bit of a dilemma now with that which is his choice last year was fencing.  He's not chosen anything for this year, and I am trying to decide whether to push him to continue with fencing or let it be.

[Pen]

I'm caught up again on the reading and plan to write more tomorrow!  Great thread!  

 

You guys rock!

 

 Or wait, this is a classical forum:   you guys totally Concerto!

[Soror]

I have always admired Corraleno. We tend that way here. I am not comfortable going quite that far in an interest led way though. The kids get a lot of input in what we study, means of output, routine, etc., but letting it get too loose isn't good for us. We're not really having problems with school though. School is going really well. I probably do need to tweak the speed of our forward progress (mostly in history and, to a lesser degree, in science). That will be a good discussion for us this week. But otherwise, the ratio of planned to interest-led is not bad. I think I might just need to tweak how I look at things. Instead of seeing Early Modern History from 1600-1850, I need to think of it in terms of progressive chunks of time and it's OK if we spend 6 weeks in one and one week in another. I basically did American history as a chronological series of unit studies. I put that together myself and was blissfully happy to be able to begin using SOTW and OUP, but maybe I got too far away from determining our own speed too.

 

Anyway, that really is a separate issue. LOL

Ah, well you mentioned that the kids were starting to balk a bit about following where you were leading and seemed to be interested towards leaning more towards interest led so I was addressing that thought. Things are going well here as well but there is always something to tweak:) personally I'm still trying to figure out our own style that fits us and I've been going around reading all my favorite posters gleaning what I can.

 

I do think our specific studies is a separate issue but related as well. I think the more we know our own philosophy and our plans the more we can share with our kids. When discussing the future we have to know how much we are looking for their input, or is it just a philosophical question? Is the discussion being used to get them to buy into our own plans or is it more of a collaboration?

 

I've just done a bit of talking w/ my own, they are still pretty young. I've been in reflection mode though which really wouldn't be helpful to share. I'm pondering what are the primary reasons we started hs'ing? Are we accomplishing those goals? Could I do better? Does our school fit our family? Am I falling into doing what I think we should be doing or what I want us to do?

 

I want them to have enough freedom to explore many possibilities. I realized recently that b/c of my own upbringing I was limiting my options for them, not literally but in my thoughts of their possibilities. I read a post recently by Corraleno talking about how some people say life is boring and our kids should learn to expect this and how she didn't expect this and her life was never boring (horrible rephrase but I'm typing in a hurry here). Anyway, this is horribly rambly but personally I have to nail down my thoughts.

 

Hs'ing is everything I dreamed and nothing I imagined. I hope soon I figure it out.