Algebra I options

[workingmom]

DS did well with SM till 6th grade with LOF along the way. Over the summer he did LOF prealgebra which was great. This year he started AoPS algebra I and although its only been two weeks, he's frustrated by the format (problems before teaching). I'm second guessing this especially since it seems to be a two year course for most. I'd be happy if he just did a strong one year course with great teaching/explanation in the text and kept moving along the math sequence. Any suggestions, I'm hoping I can sell the AoPS to someone used.

 

 

[Kendall]

I like Foerster Algebra 1 and if you want DVD's there are some by mathwithoutborders

 

I'm comfortable with math so I haven't used them, but I like the sound of them.

 

http://www.mathwithoutborders.com/Algebra-I/

 

 

[Erin]

My 8th grader started Saxon Algebra two weeks ago.  So far, so good.  He likes Saxon though.  

(Well, as much as he's willing to like Math, anyway lol)

 

For the most part, he self-teaches with the text, with me filling in when he's unsure.  Buck does pretty well with math, though, so YMMV.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

DS did well with SM till 6th grade with LOF along the way. Over the summer he did LOF prealgebra which was great. This year he started AoPS algebra I and although its only been two weeks, he's frustrated by the format (problems before teaching). I'm second guessing this especially since it seems to be a two year course for most. I'd be happy if he just did a strong one year course with great teaching/explanation in the text and kept moving along the math sequence. Any suggestions, I'm hoping I can sell the AoPS to someone used.

 

Just to give a couple comments about AoPS, which might help it work out for you (if you want to keep trying with it).

 

It does have most of the content of a traditional Algebra 1 and Algebra 2 course.  So when people mention that they take two years to work through the book, it's not that they are stretching Algebra 1 out over two years, but that they are using the same book for two years' courses. 

 

[Also, AoPS recommends finishing with the Intro to Algebra book before beginning their Geometry book.  So the math sequence can look different than other programs.]

 

We found that there was a significant learning curve in how to handle a lesson with AoPS.  Where other books have model problems that can be used as a paradigm, AoPS uses the sample problems in the lesson to help the student come to an understanding of the math concept.  Skimming through the sample problems and then skipping over the explanation of them cuts out most of the lesson instruction, leaving the student just with a set of creative and challenging problems at the end.

 

We found that the first chapter was deceptively easy.  It mostly covers mathematical properties, which the student may have seen at the beginning of a number of math books.  So it feels easy to skim and skip over.  [i'm describing exactly what happened at my house, btw.] 

 

Then by the end of the second chapter the student is getting what looks like ridiculously difficult problems involving complicated exponents.  But the understanding of how to work with these was right back in that first mathematical properties chapter and in understanding what the notations mean.  [so, a sample problem might have:  2^3=2*2*2  What is 2^5?  What is 2^10?  This might seem too basic to bother with.  But then the student gets 2^5 * 2^4=? and if he skimmed, he might not have been lead through the realization that this is the same as 2*2*2*2*2 * 2*2*2*2 = which would just be the same as 2^9.  Because he worked through the sample problems, he isn't just left with a description of a rule that when multiplying you add the exponents.  And if he gets stuck in a week, he can pause and think about what the exponents mean.]

 

When we got to the end of the second chapter, my kids were completely bogged down by the chapter review questions.  They just didn't understand what to do with the problems.  And as I  poked, I found that they had breezed through the lessons, skimming the samples; because they seemed easy and familiar.  But that left them without the understanding they needed to take it to the next step. 

 

What I ended up doing was making them go back and rework the lessons from the first chapter and then the second chapter (at a steady pace of 1 a day, not trying to rush them all into a day or two).  I also flagged the chapter summary for chapter 1 and made them refer back to it frequently when they had a question.  (I think that is page 49.)  This really gave them the time (and the motivation) to work through the samples on their own and then read carefully through the explanations.  It was well worth the backtracking time to do this.

 

This isn't all to insist that you should stay with AoPS do or die.  I think it's a very good math program, for the students it suits.  And I think it suits more than just those who are crazy gifted at math.  But I did want to let you know that it's not all that unusual to need to take a bit of time to get used to how the lessons flow.  Since you do have the AoPS already in hand, it might be worth a quick backtrack to see if the layout makes more sense now that he's seen how the samples and lessons tie together for more complicated concepts.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

A couple more thoughts.

 

I can't tell what grade your ds is in now.  If he's in 7th grade or 8th grade and doing algebra, you're doing fine.  If it's 7th grade, you have some freedom to let math stretch out a bit and still have him doing upper level math in later high school years.  But many experienced folks on the high school board have commented that it's not calculus that makes students stumble in college science work, it's a lack of understanding in algebra.  So don't feel under too much pressure to just move him along the math sequence.

 

The Art of Problem Solving website has online problem sets that can be set to track along with particular chapters in the books.  You could even set up an account for him and one for you and then friend each other in order to compare points for work done.  Might be a good reinforcement and incentive.

 

I'm not sure if you have a math background.  I had taken a fair amount in high school and calculus in college, but I still learned a ton about why things worked from going through the AoPS book on my own.  I had a longer attention span, so I could get through more than one lesson at a time.  This also helped me with writing tests.

 

Not sure if any of this helped.  I think that AoPS is a really good algebra program that does a good job of bringing the student to understanding, but that has the explanations after the initial problems, rather than before.  But there is strong explanation there.  Where I think AoPS is really lacking is in any info for parents on how to implement it.  Partly this is by design.  They have students using it as afterschooling or in early middle school as accelerated math or as their only program.  So I think they are reluctant to say, "Here's how you should use the book."  There is a link on the website for recommendations.  It is an online query form.  I had a response from the book author within a couple of hours when I asked about book sequencing. 

 

One last thought.  For my kid who tends to breeze through school, meeting up with something that requires him to slow down and really work through a question is not something he's always very happy with.  But it's a skill he needs to master (both the content and the perseverance) so it's ok to me to let him be a bit uncomfortable and frustrated.  I don't me overwhelmed and lost.  But not in a comfort zone is ok.

 

I hope some of this helps. 

[Jen in NY]

This isn't all to insist that you should stay with AoPS do or die.  I think it's a very good math program, for the students it suits.  And I think it suits more than just those who are crazy gifted at math.  But I did want to let you know that it's not all that unusual to need to take a bit of time to get used to how the lessons flow.  Since you do have the AoPS already in hand, it might be worth a quick backtrack to see if the layout makes more sense now that he's seen how the samples and lessons tie together for more complicated concepts.

Agree! Agree! (I wish my emoticons worked.....)

 

Also, if going through the problems with no explanation is just too frustrating right now, I think it would be OK to try the 'problems' as worked examples. For now, just head right for the 'answer'... and work through them together, side by side, making sure the concepts are caught. Then have your student have a go at the exercises. It is kind of similar to the way Singapore sometimes presents concepts with worked examples... except that Singapore leaves out the part where you puzzle through it on your own first.

 

My son is all good for the 'I got it... I got it.... oops... I missed something. Gotta go back.' Hopefully he's about to learn to be more methodical about it, and I'm going to sit with him at every lesson until he does. :) I will finally get through AoPS Algebra! Woot! (trying to look on the bright side, here.....)

[workingmom]

Agree! Agree! (I wish my emoticons worked.....)

 

Also, if going through the problems with no explanation is just too frustrating right now, I think it would be OK to try the 'problems' as worked examples. For now, just head right for the 'answer'... and work through them together, side by side, making sure the concepts are caught. Then have your student have a go at the exercises. It is kind of similar to the way Singapore sometimes presents concepts with worked examples... except that Singapore leaves out the part where you puzzle through it on your own first.

 

My son is all good for the 'I got it... I got it.... oops... I missed something. Gotta go back.' Hopefully he's about to learn to be more methodical about it, and I'm going to sit with him at every lesson until he does. :) I will finally get through AoPS Algebra! Woot! (trying to look on the bright side, here.....)

 

 

Thanks so much for all the feedback. This is what was happening, he was used to breezing through math now its like a brick wall with the exponents. i think i really like the idea of working the intial problems together like SM and then "teachign the concepts" then have him work on the end problems by himself. 

 

OK lets try that this next week.

[NittanyJen]

He was doing Life of Fred and Singapore before; if AoPS doesn't suit him, is there a reason not to stick with Life if Fred or Singapore? We come from a pretty mathematical household-- DH is a full professor of mathematics at a research university, and I am a former researcher in the sciences-- and we've been pretty happy with DS older's experience in Life of Fred Beginning Algebra; DS Younger went through Singapore PM and Fred, like yours, so he is sticking with Singapore DM and Fred now, since he likes both. Either one alone would be fine, though.

[workingmom]

SM DM doesn't seem to be a single algebra/geome etc rather all mixed into each year. LOF seems a bit scattered to me (we've only done upto pre algebra). DS likes it bc of the stories, but I find it doesn't cover all the topics rather skims around a bit, which is fine for "real life math" and extra but am worried using it at stand alone would be a prob. 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Thanks so much for all the feedback. This is what was happening, he was used to breezing through math now its like a brick wall with the exponents. i think i really like the idea of working the intial problems together like SM and then "teachign the concepts" then have him work on the end problems by himself. 

 

OK lets try that this next week.

 

Now I remember the other thing I wanted to mention.  (As if I didn't already say enough.)

 

Sometimes what has helped my kids is when we sit at the table at the same time, working through the same problems.  It is time consuming for me, but has paid a lot of dividends.  They like the little bit of competition, especially when they are faster than I.  It lets me see right away where they are getting stuck.  It lets me point them to the extra information they need, especially if this means going back a couple lessons to something they "thought" they understood.  And it lets me share their pain a bit.  Which I think can be encouraging.  (And certainly makes me more sympathetic to the time required to complete a lesson.)

 

If your kid was previously finishing a math lesson in less than an hour, that might also be part of the shock to the system.  AoPS lessons can take quite a bit longer.  I think that's why there are often only a handful of problems at the end of a lesson, instead of a fixed 20-30.  There were problems in the ratio & rate chapter that took me over a half hour to solve.  Sometimes it was 10-15 minutes just to figure out how to set up the problem.  That is pretty typical.  But it's also very powerful.

 

I was planning our Geometry course this morning and read through the introduction to the book.  One thing I'd forgotten is how much they emphasize the value of wrestling with the example problems, even when they are hard and even when the student doesn't quite get them.  They even suggest checking the problem sets as you go, in order to see how the solution in the book is set up (to catch something simpler or a particular facet of the solution).  And they suggest that the student flag problems that were hard and come back to them a couple weeks later to try them again. 

 

FWIW, I tie a lot of our school lessons into lessons from sports.  Meaning that I will point my kids back to the level and quantity of practice that it takes them to do something like improve a swimming stroke or kick or drop time on a long run.  They know that the funny little drills and consistent practice are all part of improvement with their sport.  I try to help them see that this concept also applies to academics.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

Now I remember the other thing I wanted to mention. (As if I didn't already say enough.)

 

Sometimes what has helped my kids is when we sit at the table at the same time, working through the same problems. It is time consuming for me, but has paid a lot of dividends. They like the little bit of competition, especially when they are faster than I. It lets me see right away where they are getting stuck. It lets me point them to the extra information they need, especially if this means going back a couple lessons to something they "thought" they understood. And it lets me share their pain a bit. Which I think can be encouraging. (And certainly makes me more sympathetic to the time required to complete a lesson.).

We don't necessarily do this with every lesson but when ever a kid doesn't understand a lesson or example or if their work on the problem set indicates need we work through either the lesson or individual problem together. I keep the solutions manual nearby so we don't waste too much time going off track. This has definitely increased success.

 

I do have one child who is used to having lessons come easily and AoPS is challenging. I think the ability to cope with this type of situation has less to do with an ability in math (or in any subject) and more to do with maturity. I'm not sure I want to give up challenging my student to appease this need. In our case it is a trade off between boredom and frustration with having to work harder. I'd rather the child learn to work hard. That is a valuable lesson in itself. (Even if it is sometimes painful for both of us.)

[Julie in MN]

I am a fan of Math Relief for Algebra (I & II). I just think he's gifted in teaching Algebra, and doesn't try to teach other things. I've used it with a struggling dd and with a mathy ds who is in Calculus at a college for 12th (and who didn't care for the AOPS style).

 

You can watch a sample Math Relief video http://www.mathrelief.com/

[Pen]

Thanks so much for all the feedback. This is what was happening, he was used to breezing through math now its like a brick wall with the exponents. i think i really like the idea of working the intial problems together like SM and then "teachign the concepts" then have him work on the end problems by himself. 

 

OK lets try that this next week.

 

 

This is why I decided to use AoPS with my ds.   I did not want him to have math be something he expected to be easy for him and then hit hard and having to learn how to work at it in college.   Learning to deal with a brick wall seems to me as important as learning to deal with whatever the content is.

[NittanyJen]

SM DM doesn't seem to be a single algebra/geome etc rather all mixed into each year. LOF seems a bit scattered to me (we've only done upto pre algebra). DS likes it bc of the stories, but I find it doesn't cover all the topics rather skims around a bit, which is fine for "real life math" and extra but am worried using it at stand alone would be a prob.

DH teaches calculus through graduate classes at a research U and gets a lot of notice for his teaching-- unusual for a researcher-- and he is very happy with the depth and topic coverage in Fred. He pretty much wishes even half the students would arrive "Fred prepared."

 

Yes, it is deep enough, and covers all the topics. One thing it does not do, particularly from algebra on upward, is spoon-feed the information. It is better for students who prefer to draw their own connections.

[NittanyJen]

I disliked AoPS immediately. So wordy.

 

I love the style of Lial's. my student is very Kathy and he is moving quickly but no longer resists it. With his SM background and DM for pre algebra year he is flying thru.

I thought the AoPS preA book was hideous-- they took a pretty easy and straightforward set of topics and made them unnecessarily difficult without adding much value in return.

 

Now the AoPS Geometry book I am finding to be a different story; it doesn't feel as wordy, subjectively, nor as difficult relative to the level of the material being taught, and there is actually some real depth to the program. I feel the book and program are in far better balance with the topic being intoduced.

 

Results will still vary by kid. I have two very math capable kids, but each is following different pathways. We are fine with that; there is no single magic bullet best text out there.

[workingmom]

Any one use Prentice Hall AlgebraI? That's what the local schools and Country Day one use. Sometimes I have to remind myself that every subject doesn't have to be the most challenging curriculum out there.

[cakemom]

I second MathRelief!! 

 

My daughter started out with TT algebra 1 and got to a point where she was still not really understanding the why of what she was doing even after lesson 85. After researching different Albegra 1 options on this forumn earlier this spring, I found out about MathRelief and decided to give it a chance. After lesson 2, dd and I both were surprised at information that was being explained that was not talked about in the TT algebra. She is now understanding not only how to do the problems but the why as well. She is on lesson 35 and is doing so much better with Algebra. I am thankful we found this curriculum!!

 

The video portion of the curriculum is about 10-15 min per lesson and then there are typically 20-30 problems to work on. The instructor explains the concepts very well and gives ample example problems so the student understands before they go into the problem sets.

 

Two thumbs up for MathRelief!!

[workingmom]

Came back from curriculum night tonite. The middle school Alg I doesn't even use a book bc they are aligning with the core standards so she uses IXL and class notes. I checked through an old Algebra I textbook in the class and  we're half way into that book (I know AoPS topics are arranged differently). But I was felt awesome about the math now. We're using many of your suggestions of watching the Prealge and Alge videos before we do the topic. Then I do the problems with him and he does exercises on his own. This week went fantastic! Slow and steady. I think another issue is we used a different Prealgebra book so some of the concepts weren't done before (like exponents and radicals).

 

Thank you sooooo much for all the suggestions, advice, and encouragement. I know if it doesn't work I can always switch to the online Holt Algebra (which I'm sure I'll have to use if we get stuck on a concept and need more teaching) but I feel so much better about my math decision after going to curriculum night tonight. 

 

In retrospect if we do AoPS with younger one, I'll be sure to start with Prealg in the sequence instead of Algb.

 

 

[kiana]

In retrospect if we do AoPS with younger one, I'll be sure to start with Prealg in the sequence instead of Algb.

In general, I think that if switching from any other program to AOPS it might be a good idea to step back exactly one course, even if it means re-covering some material. This would obviously vary for some exceptionally mathy students, but I think it would be a good idea to get used to the way AOPS presents ideas.

[EKS]

A gentler, semi-discovery based program is Jacobs.  I highly recommend it, though it has become a bit difficult to get because it went out of print recently.

[Orthodox6]

A gentler, semi-discovery based program is Jacobs.  I highly recommend it, though it has become a bit difficult to get because it went out of print recently.

 

Jacobs is out of print?  Glad we have two copies!  DD is using it now for 9th grade.  We are so proud of her for being ready for algebra I in the ninth grade, because she worked extremely hard, with intense self-motivation, to overcome diagnosed strong math LDs which had kept her several years behind in math achievement.

 

What, btw, is AoPS?  I would have thought "Alpha Omega"; however, that hardly is considered rigorous by what I read. 

[regentrude]

What, btw, is AoPS?  I would have thought "Alpha Omega"; however, that hardly is considered rigorous by what I read. 

 

The Art of Problem Solving

http://www.artofproblemsolving.com

 

 

The Art of Problem Solving mathematics curriculum is specifically designed for high-performing math students ages 11-18. Our texts not only introduce key results of mathematics, but also teach students how to develop new ideas themselves and how to apply these ideas to challenging problems. In so doing, we help students learn the key problem solving skills needed for success in top universities and in the most competitive careers, as well as in major national programs like MATHCOUNTS and the American Mathematics Competitions.

 

[Orthodox6]

Thank you, Regentrude!  A high value of the WTM boards is how I can hear of, and learn about, curricula not available where I live, or from suppliers with which I am familiar.  I always am on the lookout for good/better choices to consider.

 

The answer is reminding me of two books lost somwhere in my house -- The author is a Greek woman, and the books are devoted to . . . oh goodness, I can't describe them after all these years.  I remember them as books that would appeal to math-gifted young people (middle school and high school).  Of course I want to say that the author's first name is "Maria"; however, that is too stereotypical to trust my memory! 

[3andme]

The answer is reminding me of two books lost somwhere in my house -- The author is a Greek woman, and the books are devoted to . . . oh goodness, I can't describe them after all these years.  I remember them as books that would appeal to math-gifted young people (middle school and high school).  Of course I want to say that the author's first name is "Maria"; however, that is too stereotypical to trust my memory! 

 

 

Could you be thinking of the math books by Theoni Pappas? 

 

[Luckymama]

In general, I think that if switching from any other program to AOPS it might be a good idea to step back exactly one course, even if it means re-covering some material. This would obviously vary for some exceptionally mathy students, but I think it would be a good idea to get used to the way AOPS presents ideas.

This is what we did. Dd covered PreAlgebra in fifth grade using a variety of resources including a traditional textbook. AoPS PreAlgebra was released that following summer. I wanted her to get used to the AoPS "way" so she backed up to the AoPS PreAlgebra instead of beginning algebra. She did finish the entire book in sixth months as a lot was review but the problems were so much more complex.

[Orthodox6]

Yes! I was fumbling for the two "Joy of Mathematics" books, which I enjoyed so much about twenty years ago. Thank you for figuring out the riddle. I hope I can find our copies.

[Pen]

Came back from curriculum night tonite. The middle school Alg I doesn't even use a book bc they are aligning with the core standards so she uses IXL and class notes. I checked through an old Algebra I textbook in the class and  we're half way into that book (I know AoPS topics are arranged differently). But I was felt awesome about the math now. We're using many of your suggestions of watching the Prealge and Alge videos before we do the topic. Then I do the problems with him and he does exercises on his own. This week went fantastic! Slow and steady. I think another issue is we used a different Prealgebra book so some of the concepts weren't done before (like exponents and radicals).

 

Thank you sooooo much for all the suggestions, advice, and encouragement. I know if it doesn't work I can always switch to the online Holt Algebra (which I'm sure I'll have to use if we get stuck on a concept and need more teaching) but I feel so much better about my math decision after going to curriculum night tonight. 

 

In retrospect if we do AoPS with younger one, I'll be sure to start with Prealg in the sequence instead of Algb.

 

 

Hi,

 

I am so glad it is going better!

 

I wanted to give you a heads up on a Holt problem I found in case you turn to it.   DS wanted me to give him word problems about certain subjects, and, feeling a bit stumped for a word problem involving a microscope, I looked in Holt to see if it might have anything I could borrow from.  I did not find anything on microscopes, but happened upon a problem involving bear growth which is the type of thing, to the best I spent time with it, that tends to bug me: namely it presented some information on how big a bear is at birth and how big at age something, and wanted to know the size at some other point, apparently as if bears would grow in a linear function type of way.   Maybe I didn't give it enough time, and if I had looked more at it, it would have made more sense, but that sort of thing annoys me, because bears in real life do not grow that way.