How is it possible to parent a lying child9ren) when you can't tell what the truth is

[CalicoKat]

You all have given me advice on this before. But things have changed and I don't know what to do. I've got 2 children who are habitual liars--about everything. I don't challenge them when there is a situation. I talk with each of the individually and say, "can you please tell me why you did _____?" I don't ask if they did it or not because I don't want them to just say, "I didn't do it."

 

So here's today's challenge--you tell me what to do.

 

The nail salon I used called to remind me of my daughter's 10 a.m. appointment. Evidently they received approx, 7-8 calls yesterday from my daughter to make an appointment and asking them for a reminder. They didn't know her name, but they know mine and my phone number.

 

I have one dd who was looking at their business card yesterday with great interest and that same dd is my child who loooves going to the salon.

 

However when I said to her, "Sweetie, why did you call the nail salon and make yourself an appointment without telling Mommy?" She vehemently denied it.

 

Do I :

1. - punish without a confession

2. - punish only with a confession

3. - consider it was perhaps one of the other kiddos? They all are just as vehemently denying it.

4. - let it go

5. - sit them all down at the table til I get a confession

6. - send her to her room for the rest of the day?

 

Bottom line: I can't get 2 of my kids to tell the truth, ever. And my blood boils when there is lying.

 

We're sitting here waiting for your answers. . . . a mommy's time-out.

 

This is my ADHD dd, if that's any help.

[PeterPan]

You're going to think this is way off in left field, but in some areas of alternative healing and energy work, habitual lying is considered a symptom of a gland imbalance. Given that you already know these particular dc have some physical problems, it might be worth researching. I'm thinking I heard the gland was thymus that it connects to and there are tapping/thumping motions you do on it to stimulate the gland. I could be remembering wrong though and couldn't find anything on it when I googled. I do think it was the thymus gland though. It's located under your breast bone on the chest and that location will be sore to the touch. Thump it gently 5 or 6 times, multiple times a day, and see if you get improvement. The thymus gland also connects to emotions and is known as the happy gland.

 

I wouldn't ask a dc "why" they did something. Just tell them what they did, say you're disappointed, and punish.

[Tammy]

nt

[Susan in KY]

It may be a bit extreme, but consider taking her down to the salon with a full written apology and (her) money to cover the missed appointment.

 

Then talk about the lying.

 

?? Dunno.

[mktkcb]

Well, you could be creative.....if you think the salon might recognize which of your girls voices that it was talking on the phone, you could ask them to listen to each child say something, and then see if they could tell you which it was. OR, if they have the messages, you could pop on down and listen to them.....then you would know eh? Just telling your girls you plan to do this might prompt a confession either way. Just a thought.

Kayleen

[mktkcb]

ITA

[8filltheheart]

Unfortunately, I can completely relate. :( My ds who suffers from mental issues is also a habitual liar. It makes life extremely difficult at times.

 

First, you should try to seek help for the underlying factor. It is usually an impulse control issue. Their brains don't click the way normal brains function. It is more of a gut reaction. (this is my assumption anyway, based on your ADHD label.) I am currently "into" promoting cognitive behavioral therapy b/c for the first time it is something that is tangibly offering my ds impulse control.

 

Second, I no longer ask questions like you posed b/c automatic denial is going to be the response. It is a given before I even open my mouth. (or at least has been in the past,.....things are changing) Instead, I now approach it more along the lines of.......you need to go and consider (the behavior) and come back and discuss it with me later. First.....that makes him fully aware that I know and second....it gives him time to make a mental shift to recognizing that denial is futile.

 

Third.....punishment is not going to change the behavior (the lying behavior that is......not the infraction). It is an impulse. Which leads back to #1 and #2.

[The Governess]

You're sure that someone called the salon and made an appointment right? What about sitting all of the kids down and telling them that until you get the truthful story about what went down, no one gets the privilege of a nail appointment? Maybe the wrath of her siblings along with the removal of a privilege will encourage her to fess up?

 

I have no idea if this is a good approach or not - my kids lie but they aren't very good at it so it's easy to get to the truth. I'm sorry you're dealing with such a frustrating situation.

[CalicoKat]

nt

She's 7

[NevadaRabbit]

I have one dd who was looking at their business card yesterday with great interest and that same dd is my child who loooves going to the salon.

 

However when I said to her, "Sweetie, why did you call the nail salon and make yourself an appointment without telling Mommy?" She vehemently denied it.

 

Do I :

1. - punish without a confession

2. - punish only with a confession

3. - consider it was perhaps one of the other kiddos? They all are just as vehemently denying it.

4. - let it go

5. - sit them all down at the table til I get a confession

6. - send her to her room for the rest of the day?

 

Bottom line: I can't get 2 of my kids to tell the truth, ever. And my blood boils when there is lying.

 

It should boil when there is lying. THis is a huge issue. (I do not intend to put down other posters' experiences and advice, but unless there is real mental illness here, I would NOT make any excuses for habitual lying, and I would impose consistent and firm consequences for every episode. Do not. let. this. go.)

 

I think you DO know the truth: it's clear someone repeatedly called the salon, and it's clear at least one child is lying and perhaps others are covering for her. You will not be able to wrest a confession, nor can a 7 year old explain why she did what she did. I think you must deal with what is on the table.

 

I'd hold them all responsible. Everyone must write an apology to take to the salon. Any child who can't yet write it must offer it verbally. Take them all to the salon with their apologies, and one by one offer them to the salon owner and/or the one who fielded the multiple calls. I bet you'd only have to do this once, because the innocent will not appreciate being held accountable for the actions of the one guilty.

[8filltheheart]

It should boil when there is lying. THis is a huge issue. (I do not intend to put down other posters' experiences and advice, but unless there is real mental illness here, I would NOT make any excuses for habitual lying, and I would impose consistent and firm consequences for every episode. Do not. let. this. go.)

 

I think you DO know the truth: it's clear someone repeatedly called the salon, and it's clear at least one child is lying and perhaps others are covering for her. You will not be able to wrest a confession, nor can a 7 year old explain why she did what she did. I think you must deal with what is on the table.

 

I'd hold them all responsible. Everyone must write an apology to take to the salon. Any child who can't yet write it must offer it verbally. Take them all to the salon with their apologies, and one by one offer them to the salon owner and/or the one who fielded the multiple calls. I bet you'd only have to do this once, because the innocent will not appreciate being held accountable for the actions of the one guilty.

 

I do not know how many children the OP has, but this is not an approach I would use with my family. I would not place my children in a situation where it is one's word pitted against another's. Nor would I want to punish the innocent b/c the guilty isn't being honest.

 

FWIW.....impulsive lying is not what I would lump as a mental illness, but it is one of the typical behaviors of ADHD kids, which the OP identified the child as being.

 

Punitive punishment is not a behavior deterent with kids that have behavioral disorders. Hence, comments like "All that kid needs is a swift kick in the pants" are totally off-base. ETA: not that that is the phrase that is being used. It is simply the idea that the punishments aren't good enough to deter the future occurance of lying.

 

There are two totally different behaviors that need to be addressed. The first is making the phone call. The second is the lying. The first one needs to be dealt with independently of the second.

 

Lying is serious, but if it is impulse, punishments will not correct the behavior. Only learning to control impulsive behaviors will give them the skills to stop themselves from blurting out a lie.

 

Our ds does know that the resulting consequence of his lying is that we cannot trust him and when a situation arises and he bears the appearance of guilt, that is where the assumption is going to go. If we are wrong, we apologize. But, that is reality. Sort of like law enforcement......they look at previous offenders first.

[Storm Bay]

Well, a couple of suggestions. One of the best books I've read that handles lying very well is The Six Point Plan for Raising Happy, Healthy Children. It's worth reading, especially at the beginning where he writes about how his entire parenting philosophy changed after he had children (he has degrees in this.)

 

I never, never, never ask any of my dc who are more apt to lie to cover up (they don't all) if they did something I know or am very sure did it. I just give the consequence for the wrong action. Also, if there is lying, I dole out 2 consequences, one for the lie, the other for the act. In addition, the child I have who is most prone to this wants to be trusted, but I teach my dc that trust is earned. fwiw, this child has a very strong conscience once I get through to her and has improved, but it's a work in progress.

 

Finally, tomato stake. If your 7 yo is with you all the time, she can't do anything she can easily lie about. It's neither easy nor convenient, but works. Some kid are more prone to lying than others. Everyone has at least one character flaw to work though, and none of them are better than others, IMO.

[lighthouseacademy]

When I know that a lie could be forthcoming and I really need to know what is going on because I know enough details to know there is something that needs to be dealt with but not enough to know what to DO about it, I will preface with I am going to ask you a question. I want you to think very carefully about your answer before you answer to make sure it is the truth. If you do not tell the truth, there will be consequences for not telling the truth. Then I ask. Most times the child will then be forthcoming. I might have to ask, are you sure that is how it really happened, I Wouldn't want you to have extra consequences for lying too. They might then give the rest of the details. I have also done the I can't trust you. It worked fabulously when one time my son got in trouble for doing something that he swore was an accident but I couldn't believe him because he had lied so much. I really did believe he was lying so he was disciplined. Later I figured out that he had been telling the truth. We then talked about how I didn't believe him since he had been lying so much. He rarely lies now because it made him feel so horrible to get in trouble for doing something that was an accident.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

You all have given me advice on this before. But things have changed and I don't know what to do. I've got 2 children who are habitual liars--about everything. I don't challenge them when there is a situation. I talk with each of the individually and say, "can you please tell me why you did _____?" I don't ask if they did it or not because I don't want them to just say, "I didn't do it."

 

So here's today's challenge--you tell me what to do.

 

The nail salon I used called to remind me of my daughter's 10 a.m. appointment. Evidently they received approx, 7-8 calls yesterday from my daughter to make an appointment and asking them for a reminder. They didn't know her name, but they know mine and my phone number.

 

I have one dd who was looking at their business card yesterday with great interest and that same dd is my child who loooves going to the salon.

 

However when I said to her, "Sweetie, why did you call the nail salon and make yourself an appointment without telling Mommy?" She vehemently denied it.

 

Do I :

1. - punish without a confession

2. - punish only with a confession

3. - consider it was perhaps one of the other kiddos? They all are just as vehemently denying it.

4. - let it go

5. - sit them all down at the table til I get a confession

6. - send her to her room for the rest of the day?

 

Bottom line: I can't get 2 of my kids to tell the truth, ever. And my blood boils when there is lying.

 

We're sitting here waiting for your answers. . . . a mommy's time-out.

 

This is my ADHD dd, if that's any help.

 

I'd say a little less talk, a little more action. Tell her she called the salon and that you now have to make it right. If she has savings, she gets to go pay for the cheapest thing on the salon "menu" out of her money -- they reserved the time for her, and that cost them money.

 

Take her down to the salon, take her in, tell the owner that YOU are sorry this happened, pay her money, and leave.

 

No more asking why -- she's too scared or young or whatever to tell the truth about this. Tell her she is not allowed to talk on the phone until she turns eight. (I would included Grandma in this equation, actually, and everyone else she talks to on the phone unless a parent is out of the country or away for months at a time.) If she lies about the phone, she's not old enough for the phone, period. Oh, and I'd say no salon til she's eight, too. She's not responsible enough not to lie about it.

 

I agree that you don't ask a child *if* they did something you know they did. You should, IMO, *tell* them what they did and tell them what is going to happen. Chuckle if they deny it (as long as you are CERTAIN you know the truth) and tell them that you're much too old to be fooled by words, and that someday, they will understand that it is a very childish thing to lie to oneself.

 

Asking "why" to a child with a tendency to lie is like leaving cookies in the reach of a hungry 15 month-old, telling him "don't touch" and walking away. Sorry, it's not likely to matter.

 

Don't act like you swallowed this for one minute. Don't allow her to have no consequences for her BEHAVIOR for one minute. I was a little liar as a child and my parents just let me get away with it most of the time for some reason. Either no punishment at all, or they beat me. There has to be some middle ground where you can train (sorry, Amy) them to tell the truth.

 

"Were you the one who shut the refrigerator door when you got out the milk?" "Uh... yes." "Great! Thanks for telling the truth." Many, MANY times til they get into the habit of *truth.*

 

Also, please make "truth" the a safe thing to tell. To this day, extreme explosive anger makes me curl into a fetal ball for days. Watch your reactions, but make sure there *is* a reaction. Make sure it's safe to fail in your home. Because you know, we all do.

 

Anyway, my two cents from the "it's easier to lie than to deal with the humiliating drama from screwing up yet again" side of the house.

 

ETA: Rethinking this, it sounds like you're not absolutely sure. So my answers probably make little sense. Anyway, I'll leave it in case my ramblings find any resonance with you. I'm surely not firing on all cylinders today -- sorry.

[NevadaRabbit]

I do not know how many children the OP has, but this is not an approach I would use with my family. I would not place my children in a situation where it is one's word pitted against another's. Nor would I want to punish the innocent b/c the guilty isn't being honest.

 

FWIW.....impulsive lying is not what I would lump as a mental illness, but it is one of the typical behaviors of ADHD kids, which the OP identified the child as being.

 

Punitive punishment is not a behavior deterent with kids that have behavioral disorders. Hence, comments like "All that kid needs is a swift kick in the pants" are totally off-base. ETA: not that that is the phrase that is being used. It is simply the idea that the punishments aren't good enough to deter the future occurance of lying.

 

There are two totally different behaviors that need to be addressed. The first is making the phone call. The second is the lying. The first one needs to be dealt with independently of the second.

 

Lying is serious, but if it is impulse, punishments will not correct the behavior. Only learning to control impulsive behaviors will give them the skills to stop themselves from blurting out a lie.

 

Our ds does know that the resulting consequence of his lying is that we cannot trust him and when a situation arises and he bears the appearance of guilt, that is where the assumption is going to go. If we are wrong, we apologize. But, that is reality. Sort of like law enforcement......they look at previous offenders first.

 

Thanks for the ETA, because that is indeed not what I was saying. There's no "swift kick in the pants" in what I suggested. :)

 

I don't see a written/verbal apology as punishment; in our family, making amends is a responsibility when you've wronged someone. It's the first consequence for the bad choice (unapproved phone calls + lying). The group apology in no way pits the children against one another; it holds them all responsible for their collective lack of honesty in this situation. And I have no problem showing them that lack of trust in one has ripple effects for the whole family. I think you are seeing my suggestion as far more hostile/punitive than I am. FWIW, I have one child who has issues that we have had to work around - SPD - and it does her no favors if we alter our expectations in any way when it comes to moral behavior. Of course you deal with underlying diagnoses like ADD or SPD. But I expect honesty from both my children, equally, because the world does the same.

[8filltheheart]

I don't get from the OP that anyone is covering for the other. She knows that one is lying and knows which one it is.

 

Also, I am in no way suggesting that she should allow the child to get away with lying. That is not what I wrote. What I said is that she needs to be taught how to control the impulse to blurt out a lie. Also, the mother should not even ask the question and create the environment that prompts the impulse to lie. Confronting the issue, the phone, and then having the child take a mental period to process it before discussing it again separates the initial behavior from an impulsive response.

 

I can't begin to conceive how what I wrote sounds like I was advocating allowing the child to lie. However, simple giving repeated serious consequences for lying is not doing the child any favors, nor will the lying stop. It has to be "unlearned." They have to be taught the skills needed to not respond impulsively. Those skills can be used in all areas of their lives and are positive for everyone involved.

 

The phone call needs to have one consequence. The lying another.....the lying is a more pervasive issue than simply stating that it deserves consequence x b/c it is an over all self-control issue.

[NevadaRabbit]

I don't get from the OP that anyone is covering for the other. She knows that one is lying and knows which one it is.

 

Also, I am in no way suggesting that she should allow the child to get away with lying. That is not what I wrote. What I said is that she needs to be taught how to control the impulse to blurt out a lie. Also, the mother should not even ask the question and create the environment that prompts the impulse to lie. Confronting the issue, the phone, and then having the child take a mental period to process it before discussing it again separates the initial behavior from an impulsive response.

 

I can't begin to conceive how what I wrote sounds like I was advocating allowing the child to lie. However, simple giving repeated serious consequences for lying is not doing the child any favors, nor will the lying stop. It has to be "unlearned." They have to be taught the skills needed to not respond impulsively. Those skills can be used in all areas of their lives and are positive for everyone involved.

 

The phone call needs to have one consequence. The lying another.....the lying is a more pervasive issue than simply stating that it deserves consequence x b/c it is an over all self-control issue.

 

Momof7, my apologies - my intent was not to be adversarial but to clarify what I had meant.

 

You didn't sound like you advocated allowing the child to lie.

 

I stand by my assertion that ADD or no, the standard is honesty. I think we're simply advocating two different roads to teach the child not to lie.

 

It is simply my opinion, not meant to insult anyone, that repeated serious consequences for lying are indeed part of a structured approach to "unlearn" the behavior, which should also include positive instruction in what TO do rather than lie, as you have said.

[swellmomma]

Well with 2 kids that have gone through the lieing stage here's what I did. At first I simply told them since they told lies I did not know when they told me the truth so I would treat everything they said as a lie. They caught on very quickly and by the end of a week they started telling me the truth about half the time. Then I started with double punishment for lieing, regular for telling me the truth. They are now down to only occasional lieing. Both of them have ADHD and one has conduct disorder and even she knows it is much better to just tell me the truth because the punishment for lieing is way worse than just confessing.

[Joanne]

I agree with Pam FSOM. It's what I would have written if she didn't write it first.

[kim in ks]

It may be a bit extreme, but consider taking her down to the salon with a full written apology and (her) money to cover the missed appointment.

 

Then talk about the lying.

 

?? Dunno.

 

I like this idea!

kim:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[kim in ks]

It should boil when there is lying. THis is a huge issue. (I do not intend to put down other posters' experiences and advice, but unless there is real mental illness here, I would NOT make any excuses for habitual lying, and I would impose consistent and firm consequences for every episode. Do not. let. this. go.)

 

 

.

 

I agree strongly ! Many people tried to make many excuses for our daughters behavior!

 

When we brought our adopted 4yod home she was a habitual liar! I couldn't trust her at all. AFter dealing w/ this for about 6 months, I called her into my room and said w/ enthusiasm. " Hey Lydia hurry up and get cleaned up, and we are going to see the circus animals in town, dad called and said he will come pick us up!" she got really excited! jumping up and down, as soon as she was emotionally attached to the event and had showed trust in my statement, I immediately sat her down, and said, " Wow! I'm sorry I had to do that , but that was a lie! I wanted you to know how it felt to be lied to?" It painted a very real picture for her, SHe's now 11 and we haven't had hardly any trouble w/ lieing since she was about 9!

 

kim

[EKS]

How about marching her into the nail salon and having her pay for the appointment she booked (without actually getting her nails done). That's what adults do who book appointments with professionals and then don't keep them.

[Peela]

The way we have handled it is not so punitive either. ADHD kids dont always have an inbuilt "morality" and I have a step dd like that.

We treat it very seriously and basically all life stops until it is dealt with. But the outcome we want is confession- we instinctively feel that punishment without confession and some sort of remorse is pointless. We sit the child on the couch and life stops until they confess. We dont come across as angry or punitive- we just want the child to realise we know, and they are not going to get away with it. Our son went through a few episodes of this and he has always come to the point of confession- but we never gave him any alternative, either. Once the confession is there, we often ask him what a good consequence would be- once it was stealing money- he had to give it back and then pay extra. In the case of your dd, I would get the confession and remorse way before forcing the child to march down to the nail salon- that would be a natural consequence, after admitting to the crime, to go and apologise (and I wouldn't necessarily choose that consequence, but it one possible one).

I think the point for me would be building and maintaining my connection with my child, rather than punitive- because punishment can make a child even more alienated from the parent- the child is already somehow not close enough to the parent to be honest, and some kids are just like that- I would work on that rather than punishment.

For a child who cant feel remorse, its difficult, but possible. Truly, my step dd is amazing in her ability to lie, and she was allowed to get away with it because her mother didnt want to punish her when she wasnt sure. I think you can be pretty sure in your case.

[Amy in Orlando]

It should boil when there is lying. THis is a huge issue. (I do not intend to put down other posters' experiences and advice, but unless there is real mental illness here, I would NOT make any excuses for habitual lying, and I would impose consistent and firm consequences for every episode. Do not. let. this. go.)

 

I think you DO know the truth: it's clear someone repeatedly called the salon, and it's clear at least one child is lying and perhaps others are covering for her. You will not be able to wrest a confession, nor can a 7 year old explain why she did what she did. I think you must deal with what is on the table.

 

I'd hold them all responsible. Everyone must write an apology to take to the salon. Any child who can't yet write it must offer it verbally. Take them all to the salon with their apologies, and one by one offer them to the salon owner and/or the one who fielded the multiple calls. I bet you'd only have to do this once, because the innocent will not appreciate being held accountable for the actions of the one guilty.

 

:iagree: This is exactly how I would handle it.

 

Additionally, there would be no "salon days" for anyone but myself until the kids were in their teens.

 

I'd also consider switching salons - anyone dumb enough to make an appointment with a 7 year-old doesn't earn my confidence.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

 

I'd also consider switching salons - anyone dumb enough to make an appointment with a 7 year-old doesn't earn my confidence.

 

 

Uh, yeah. You think? What was up with THAT??

[Barb_]

ITA with Pam. This is how I handle the occasional transgression in my house. Take your best guess, pick the most likely liar, and go with it. If you make an occasional mistake and punish one who is actually telling the truth, OH WELL! Someone who has developed a reputation as a liar will sometimes be unfairly accused because she doesn't have the trust of the people around her. No trust, no benefit of the doubt. Trust is a privilege earned only by truthfulness. If you aren't trustworthy, life can quickly become unfair. In fact, when we were going through a phase where lying was beginning to become habitual with my then-8yo ADHD child, I would occasionally disbelieve her on purpose until she could prove she was telling the truth (ie: was her room all clean, did she brush her teeth...that sort of thing) to drive home the point that a liar puts her every statement under suspicion. That coupled with the sorts of suggestions Pam posted ensured it was a very short phase.

 

Barb

 

I'd say a little less talk, a little more action. Tell her she called the salon and that you now have to make it right. If she has savings, she gets to go pay for the cheapest thing on the salon "menu" out of her money -- they reserved the time for her, and that cost them money.

 

Take her down to the salon, take her in, tell the owner that YOU are sorry this happened, pay her money, and leave.

 

No more asking why -- she's too scared or young or whatever to tell the truth about this. Tell her she is not allowed to talk on the phone until she turns eight. (I would included Grandma in this equation, actually, and everyone else she talks to on the phone unless a parent is out of the country or away for months at a time.) If she lies about the phone, she's not old enough for the phone, period. Oh, and I'd say no salon til she's eight, too. She's not responsible enough not to lie about it.

 

I agree that you don't ask a child *if* they did something you know they did. You should, IMO, *tell* them what they did and tell them what is going to happen. Chuckle if they deny it (as long as you are CERTAIN you know the truth) and tell them that you're much too old to be fooled by words, and that someday, they will understand that it is a very childish thing to lie to oneself.

 

Asking "why" to a child with a tendency to lie is like leaving cookies in the reach of a hungry 15 month-old, telling him "don't touch" and walking away. Sorry, it's not likely to matter.

 

Don't act like you swallowed this for one minute. Don't allow her to have no consequences for her BEHAVIOR for one minute. I was a little liar as a child and my parents just let me get away with it most of the time for some reason. Either no punishment at all, or they beat me. There has to be some middle ground where you can train (sorry, Amy) them to tell the truth.

 

"Were you the one who shut the refrigerator door when you got out the milk?" "Uh... yes." "Great! Thanks for telling the truth." Many, MANY times til they get into the habit of *truth.*

 

Also, please make "truth" the a safe thing to tell. To this day, extreme explosive anger makes me curl into a fetal ball for days. Watch your reactions, but make sure there *is* a reaction. Make sure it's safe to fail in your home. Because you know, we all do.

 

Anyway, my two cents from the "it's easier to lie than to deal with the humiliating drama from screwing up yet again" side of the house.

 

ETA: Rethinking this, it sounds like you're not absolutely sure. So my answers probably make little sense. Anyway, I'll leave it in case my ramblings find any resonance with you. I'm surely not firing on all cylinders today -- sorry.

[CalicoKat]

The way we have handled it is not so punitive either. ADHD kids dont always have an inbuilt "morality" and I have a step dd like that.

We treat it very seriously and basically all life stops until it is dealt with. But the outcome we want is confession- we instinctively feel that punishment without confession and some sort of remorse is pointless. We sit the child on the couch and life stops until they confess. We dont come across as angry or punitive- we just want the child to realise we know, and they are not going to get away with it. Our son went through a few episodes of this and he has always come to the point of confession- but we never gave him any alternative, either. Once the confession is there, we often ask him what a good consequence would be- once it was stealing money- he had to give it back and then pay extra. In the case of your dd, I would get the confession and remorse way before forcing the child to march down to the nail salon- that would be a natural consequence, after admitting to the crime, to go and apologise (and I wouldn't necessarily choose that consequence, but it one possible one).

I think the point for me would be building and maintaining my connection with my child, rather than punitive- because punishment can make a child even more alienated from the parent- the child is already somehow not close enough to the parent to be honest, and some kids are just like that- I would work on that rather than punishment.

For a child who cant feel remorse, its difficult, but possible. Truly, my step dd is amazing in her ability to lie, and she was allowed to get away with it because her mother didnt want to punish her when she wasnt sure. I think you can be pretty sure in your case.

Thank you Peela, this is pretty much what we did. We sat at the table until there was a "confession."

 

I put that in quotes because I finally got it out of her by asking how she intended to get to the appointment she'd made, "I wasn't sure since I knew you would be mad and probably wouldn't drive me." She did voluntarily apologize to me for using the phone, and for lying to me about it. And she was punished for lying.

 

It is difficult to drive to the nail salon since it's back in our former town.

 

I agree about the lack of moral sensitivity. It's senseless to punish her without a confession and even then it's hard to know if the two events will be filed in the cause/effect portion of her mind. I do know that she needs to learn because she'll need it in adult life.

 

We'll stick with stopping the world--our former method--and I'll watch the temp. of my blood since that's my gut. I'll have to get more creative at questioning since the knee-jerk reaction is to scream, "WHO did it?!"

 

All said, it was a pretty creative thing she did and I'm surprised she had it in her to put it all together, except the asking permission part.