Book Discussion: Mindset- How to Talk so kids will learn and succeed

[Soror]

I've seen this book, Mindset: The New Psychology of Success, recommended a few times on here and finally read it this weekend. Is anyone interested in a discussion of this book or it's application to your life, parenting and homeschool?

 

Oddly enough I found the material in the book to be both nothing surprising and completely revolutionary. First, I'll say I've just given this a speed read so far and am on my second go around to make notes, so hopefully my thoughts will make sense.

 

The premise of the book talks about how what you believe about yourself shapes your life. She classifies people as either growth mindset or fixed mindset, although she acknowledges there is some mix between the two usually people fall more heavily to one side or the other.

 

Those with a fixed mindset adhere to the idea that intelligence, athletic prowess, artistic talent etc. are fixed, you either have them or don't. You shouldn't have to work hard to develop these skills, if you do have to work then you don't really have talent or intelligence.

 

Individuals with a growth mindset see failure and challenge as a chance to grow and learn. They acknowledge that in order to succeed hard work and perseverance are not only beneficial but required. They believe that with work anyone can significantly change their intelligence, talent, etc. The difference between those who do succeed and those who don't is not the ability but the work put into accomplishing the goal. When they do fail they don't give up but look to figure out new and more efficient ways to proceed.

 

She talks about how this relates to those who are teachers, coaches and business people but also how this plays out in relationships. Her discussion about relationships was very interesting especially in light of some of the discussions here on WTM. It is quite often thought that those who have "good" marriages or such don't or shouldn't have to "work" on them. (Likewise she makes the point that we often hero worship those who we believe are naturally talented w/ little thought to the actual work put into that talent) For all the talk about hard work in America it seems it is often seen as a negative when people have to work at a skill or to figure something out.

 

As a teacher she shows that those who believe that their students are their test scores and cannot substantially change their intelligence, usually have experience that bears out this belief. However, those teachers that believe that students can make significant changes and learn, regardless of their background find this to be true as well (Marva Collins anyone?).

 

As a homeschooler the main takeaway points for me were:

1) I want my children to have the belief that they can achieve much, if they put their minds to doing the work

2) I don't want my child to define themselves as the "smart" one, "athletic" one etc but rather focus on their effort, hard work and persistence. I want to create an environment that doesn't see failure as a negative but an opportunity for learning.

3) As a teacher it is my job to provide my students with the motivation and tools to succeed

 

And there is so much more that I cannot put into words without going back through the book again. One of the biggest aha moments was in regards to my own life. I've long been a critic of excessive praising and have read much about this but this book explained the effects better than anything else I've read, she really nailed my own experience to a T. She talks about how when we constantly praise for intelligence we often end up with kids who are afraid to try anything too hard. They don't want to fail because if you fail you are no longer smart. I see this in myself, the fear of failing, the thought that I must not really be smart. If I was smart then I would just know all of these things. I'm not creative or athletic either.

 

This book changed how I think of myself in this regard more than anything else previously. My thoughts are now irt sports for example is that it is not a skill I wish to develop. I have to think about what skills I *do* wish to develop. I may never be Picasso or such but I can become a significantly better artist if I put the time and effort into this skill, likewise for my children. In this way it reminded me of Outliers by Gladwell but on a more practical level. In his book you see that there are several factors that contribute to the extraordinary success of some but in Mindset I see those factors of success that we all can develop.

 

Thinking of these factors irt to parenting and teaching I did feel "growth-minded" in these areas already but this book was a real encouragement to me to keep on this path with persistence and some practical thoughts on how this looks in practice. I can be a great parent and a great teacher. Failure really is another opportunity for success.

[Pen]

Yes.

 

I'm interested in how to actually communicate this to self and others, how to make it real practice rather than theory. And how to do it so that it is meaningful. My ds seems to have troubles in some areas persisting when things do not come easily. I am not sure I am succeeding in saying the right growth mindset producing things. I have thought of having him do Brainology.

[Momof3littles]

I only have a sec, but I have read most of it. I purchased it to help me think through things and work with my perfectionistic DS1. I have long avoided praise over right vs. wrong, have focused with him on effort, persistence, etc. and yet, I still found the book quite thought provoking.

 

What was interesting to me is that while I bought it to help me with DS1, I found out a lot of things about myself and my own beliefs about myself. I would never, ever say I have a fixed ability type of mindset, and yet, I recognized many parts of myself in those descriptions :huh: (eta: and that's with being very aware of the research on "praise" and so forth before reading it)

 

I have also noticed how often my DS1 is praised by *others* for being smart, gifted, whatever, and I am concerned that those words will have an impact on him, despite DH and my efforts to avoid praise, etc. at home.

 

I was one of those kids who was bright, in the gifted program, but afraid to fail. I was good at lots of things without much effort. When something required I really buckle down and put forth effort, I suddenly felt "stupid" and like it should all come easily to me. I was always in the top math group, took math through analytic geometry and analysis of functions (was the same as my college calc class more or less). My parents weren't able to help me or afford a tutor, and my high school teacher took every sick day he had ever accumulated. I still managed to label myself as "not good at math" when I really was quite good at it, you know. I seriously had no idea what it was to study or put forth effort, even though I *thought* I did, and thought I had a good work ethic. And I studied much harder than most of my friends. I definitely had a POV that if I was "good at" something it would immediately come easily to me. If it didn't, I was terrible at it. I ruled out things like majoring in engineering because i perceived myself as "not good at math." I took 2 AP classes and mostly honors classes in high school, and avoided some APs solely because I was afraid I wouldn't get an A. I don't want that for DC, as I think it was a significant negative in my education.

[LaughingCat]

I think a lot of the time the wisdom in this book get distilled down to "praise them for effort not for success" and I think that ignores the strong bias our society has against failure, along with the obvious fact that some people are naturally more adept. Look at the similar "all you need to do is practice a lot " paradigm I've seen in various books - purporting to say that practice is the most important thing not natural ability (the "10,000 hours" idea) - the problem is it isn't just any old "practice" but only a certain type of practice that creates improvement, plus there are still going to be those for whom it would take 100,000+ hours instead. I think the "mindset" idea is the same - it is not just any old "you worked hard" praise that will move them away from fear of failure any more than it is any old hard work that will move them away from actual failure.

 

Now have I been able to translate those thoughts into action - no :glare: So for now I just keep talking about the brain as a muscle (grows with hard work) and try to praise effort not success.

[stripe]

I think a lot of the time the wisdom in this book get distilled down to "praise them for effort not for success" and I think that ignores the strong bias our society has against failure, along with the obvious fact that some people are naturally more adept. Look at the similar "all you need to do is practice a lot " paradigm I've seen in various books - purporting to say that practice is the most important thing not natural ability (the "10,000 hours" idea) - the problem is it isn't just any old "practice" but only a certain type of practice that creates improvement, plus there are still going to be those for whom it would take 100,000+ hours instead.

 

In fact, I was just reading a book by Cal Newport about getting in to college in which he talks about how, even when two people are competent, one's marginally better quality/skill can make a world of difference; he compared Juan Diego Florez to Luciano Pavarotti -- both were technically amazing, but one sold millions of albums and is a superstar, while the other has only a reasonably profitable career. Some people are just better than others, or are there at the right moment.

[Soror]

I think she does address that issue, if just a bit, when talking about those who are growth minded change how they practice when they experience failure. She said something about how they practice more efficiently, unfortunately she didn't give much details on this point, that is something to research independently I suppose.

[Pen]

Hoping more people will see and comment on this so giving it a bump as I think of more I'd like to say about it!

[stripe]

I am going to re-read Mindset; it's another one I read some time back.

[T'smom]

I just got this from the library. I hope to read it this weekend!

[Soror]

I am hoping to hear others thoughts as well.

 

It was very mind-blowing to read the various studies showing what effect we can have with even little words and actions. I would say I make a conscious effort to try to be encouraging in a positive way and try not to negatively label the kids but I still found there were some examples where I could identify things I could and should change. My son is naturally very persistent personality, I've remarked on that quite often as it is one of the traits I admire most about him. However, I have heard him say things as of late that were negative irt himself and his intelligence lately, so that has really brought it to my mind as well.

[sillymommy]

I read Mindset a few yrs ago. I really appreciated the idea of changing the paradigm to one of encouraging effort. I frequently comment on my children's efforts. I don't really remember getting that as a child. Just "A dollar for every A" at report card time. Since school was pretty easy, so that seemed great. But in other areas of life, I simply gave up if it didn't come easily. I assumed I couldn't do it if an activity required effort. I want my kids to see the benefit of working hard at something even if they aren't great at it. And recognize that it's the hard work that gets results, not some innate ability.

 

Great book!

[jenbrdsly]

Yes. I've read it. My favorite quote is "This is hard; this is fun." We say that all the time. I have a bunch more thoughts about the book here on my blog, in case anyone is interested.

[Pen]

Yes. I've read it. My favorite quote is "This is hard; this is fun." We say that all the time. I have a bunch more thoughts about the book here on my blog, in case anyone is interested.

 

 

On your blog it says you were signing up one of your children for some Brainology, if you did that how did it go?

 

I don't see a 2 week free trial now, and cannot seem to make the one week trial sign-up load. I am considering this, but the lowest price I see right now seems to be $79...I'd like to know if it would be helpful for that amount. My son has already seen some films about how brain pathways get strengthened with use, culled with non-use. What does the Brainology give beyond that idea?

[jenbrdsly]

We never ended up doing Brainology. Right around when I was planning to sign up, I found out that I had just missed a super amazing deal on in from Homebuyer's Coop. Then I totally flaked and forgot about the idea until you mentioned it just now! :)

[Pen]

I am wondering what relatively few posts and views on this thread mean. To me this is an extraordinarily important area of discovery, and at least when Dweck began the research, it seemed that most of the people studied had what she came to call "fixed" rather than "growth" mindsets. I am wondering if this has now changed and this is all obvious and commonplace to most of the people on these forums? Or if the title does not call to people to look into it further? Or? Thoughts?

[Pen]

I only have a sec, but I have read most of it. I purchased it to help me think through things and work with my perfectionistic DS1. I have long avoided praise over right vs. wrong, have focused with him on effort, persistence, etc. and yet, I still found the book quite thought provoking.

 

What was interesting to me is that while I bought it to help me with DS1, I found out a lot of things about myself and my own beliefs about myself. I would never, ever say I have a fixed ability type of mindset, and yet, I recognized many parts of myself in those descriptions :huh: (eta: and that's with being very aware of the research on "praise" and so forth before reading it)

 

I have also noticed how often my DS1 is praised by *others* for being smart, gifted, whatever, and I am concerned that those words will have an impact on him, despite DH and my efforts to avoid praise, etc. at home.

 

I was one of those kids who was bright, in the gifted program, but afraid to fail. I was good at lots of things without much effort. When something required I really buckle down and put forth effort, I suddenly felt "stupid" and like it should all come easily to me. I was always in the top math group, took math through analytic geometry and analysis of functions (was the same as my college calc class more or less). My parents weren't able to help me or afford a tutor, and my high school teacher took every sick day he had ever accumulated. I still managed to label myself as "not good at math" when I really was quite good at it, you know. I seriously had no idea what it was to study or put forth effort, even though I *thought* I did, and thought I had a good work ethic. And I studied much harder than most of my friends. I definitely had a POV that if I was "good at" something it would immediately come easily to me. If it didn't, I was terrible at it. I ruled out things like majoring in engineering because i perceived myself as "not good at math." I took 2 AP classes and mostly honors classes in high school, and avoided some APs solely because I was afraid I wouldn't get an A. I don't want that for DC, as I think it was a significant negative in my education.

 

 

This totally resonates with me too!

[stripe]

I am wondering if this has now changed and this is all obvious and commonplace to most of the people on these forums? Or if the title does not call to people to look into it further? Or? Thoughts?

In my case I am waiting to get my hands on the book to reread it!

[Barbara H]

In fact, I was just reading a book by Cal Newport about getting in to college in which he talks about how, even when two people are competent, one's marginally better quality/skill can make a world of difference; he compared Juan Diego Florez to Luciano Pavarotti -- both were technically amazing, but one sold millions of albums and is a superstar, while the other has only a reasonably profitable career. Some people are just better than others, or are there at the right moment.

 

I'm not sure I get this. Is the idea that Juan Deigo Florez is not a superstar? His name may not be as well known by people who don't know about or care about opera, but he's absolutely an opera superstar. Also, it seems weird to me to compare as Florez is still young and in the middle of his career.

 

I do agree though that some people are there at the right moment. Scientists happen to get the right problem at the time when their field is ready to change and that sort of thing. I don't think this is at all contrary to the ideas in Mindset though. It isn't about creating superstars but about helping people learn in a healthy and effective way.

[Pen]

I'm not sure I get this. Is the idea that Juan Deigo Florez is not a superstar? His name may not be as well known by people who don't know about or care about opera, but he's absolutely an opera superstar. Also, it seems weird to me to compare as Florez is still young and in the middle of his career.

 

I do agree though that some people are there at the right moment. Scientists happen to get the right problem at the time when their field is ready to change and that sort of thing. I don't think this is at all contrary to the ideas in Mindset though. It isn't about creating superstars but about helping people learn in a healthy and effective way.

 

 

 

Quite aside from any comparison between Pavarotti and Florez, and while I do not know the Cal Newport book, to me it seems that looking at someone who is around 40 (?) and judging them as if there will be no change and no future seems like it is a "fixed" mindset way of looking at things, and perhaps is more telling about Newport than about either of the singers?

 

Of interest on Pavarotti with regard to Mindset, I think he gave up singing at one point, and apparently only then could relax sufficiently to be able to both become healthy again (he had had nodules on his larynx, I think) and make his singing work out to become the great star that Newport seems to be writing about. It was not always so. In fact, I think at similar ages, say around 23-24 years old--Florez was singing at La Scala and Pavarotti was working odd jobs to support himself. ?????

 

Dweck discusses how filling in a bubble on a form that says female can reduce performance in math (thought to be a male field)--I wonder if there is any impact on the singers because one is Italian and one Peruvian? Either in how they see themselves or in how others such as Cal Newport might see them?

[LaughingCat]

My summary of Cal Newport in a short blurb would be "don't worry about finding your passion - take advantage of what is available to you and become the best you can at that (and you'll feel passionate about it later when you're great at it)".

 

IMO he is more in the 10,000 hours of practice camp rather than anti Carol Dweck's "growth mindset". In my last post I believe I started the thread siderailing a bit by comparing the two.

[LaughingCat]

Dweck discusses how filling in a bubble on a form that says female can reduce performance in math (thought to be a male field)

 

 

Although I have seen this (and similar) before - it just made me realize: perhaps what I need to find is a way to add a subtle reminder like this (but positive) BEFORE DD does something that is hard for her rather than (or along with) an attempt to "praise effort" after doing it.

[Arcadia]

I am wondering if this has now changed and this is all obvious and commonplace to most of the people on these forums? Or if the title does not call to people to look into it further? Or? Thoughts?

 

 

I have not read the book so I am commenting on mindset itself. When I was in elementary school, the teachers would tell us to "set your mind to it" and remind us of "mind over matter". So the teachers obviously believe we can live up to our potential and hopefully exceed our potential.

A common saying I hear in the states is "if life throws you lemons, you make lemonade". My opinion is that a fixed mindset would hinder growth as there is an artificial limit imposed.

Posters and readers on this board are looking for a wider viewpoint so maybe they already do not have a fixed mindset.

 

ETA:

The author has a website and a test on her website

http://mindsetonline.com/thebook/buythebook/index.html

A school talk on the book for parents

http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/uploadedFiles/schools/rockyhillms/parents/dweck_brain_fy12.pdf

[threedogfarm]

I just received this book from the library so I don't have any comments on it yet. I have also started "Why Don't Students Like School" based on another book discussion thread here.

 

I am so happy that these discussions are being started because I am finding it's not always what I teach (in the content sections) as how I teach it and approach it that can make a difference. I know that the way we homeschool can set up good or bad habits in the future. I too was one of those students where things came very easily and then I hit college and took organic chemistry, etc. I struggled, not because I wasn't capable of doing the work, but I didn't know how to approach actually learning it. I feel that I should keep this in mind when I homeschool and I think that the WTM does a very good job of highlighting this.

 

I also asked on the last book discussion if there was a book(s) that described how children learn and develop--along the lines of SWB's comment about how children learn to write (in first grade, for example, it is overwhelming for most students to be asked to answer the question in writing, "What did you do yesterday?" Some books were mentioned but none really addressed the stages or approached it like SWB in direct relation to how children develop cognitively in relation to learning. . .

 

I'm looking forward to reading more comments and adding my own as I read the book.

[Pen]

There is a Princeton professor who was looking at some of that. I've blanked on his name. Maybe something like Sam Wang. I think he has written books and or has a Great Courses course which might touch on this.

[Pen]

Although I have seen this (and similar) before - it just made me realize: perhaps what I need to find is a way to add a subtle reminder like this (but positive) BEFORE DD does something that is hard for her rather than (or along with) an attempt to "praise effort" after doing it.

 

 

 

Aha!!! Yes!!!! What do we say?

[Arcadia]

There is a Princeton professor who was looking at some of that. I've blanked on his name. Maybe something like Sam Wang. I think he has written books and or has a Great Courses course which might touch on this.

 

Maybe this is what you are thinking of

http://www.thegreatcourses.com/tgc/courses/course_detail.aspx?cid=1541

 

I found other interesting articles by the author

The mindset of a champion http://www.decd.sa.gov.au/adelaidehills/files/links/self_theories_the_mindset.pdf

The effort effect (not by the author but about the author's work)

http://alumni.stanford.edu/get/page/magazine/article/?article_id=32124

The secrets to raising smart kids

http://www.pvusd.k12.ca.us/departments/gate/dweck/documents/secret_to_raising_smart_kids.pdf

 

[La Texican]

I love articles about Carol Dwecks growth vs. fixed mindset. I think just by teaching our kids ourselves we have the chance to teach them to "just do the work", take baby steps, break it down into bite-sized pieces. Otherwise, in school, they might not get that challenge. They just have to follow the steps they're given. If the don't, well then school marches on anyway. IMO it's less effective to say anything than it is to show them over and over, challenge after challenge, "just keep trying". "Better yet, ask a lot of questions." If nobody's going to make you do the hard stuff, if you're under the impression that you shouldn't ask too many questions, that's not going to get you anywhere. If you are a well-educated child who has faced challenge after challenge, over and over, then you start to grow your skills perceptably. Then no one will have to tell you that you can grow smarter by working harder because you'll already know.

 

My other thought about "self theories" is that it's the only one I see that tells you to compare your talent to your own talent. Usually talent is considered in comparison to other people.

[Catherine]

I am wondering what relatively few posts and views on this thread mean. To me this is an extraordinarily important area of discovery, and at least when Dweck began the research, it seemed that most of the people studied had what she came to call "fixed" rather than "growth" mindsets. I am wondering if this has now changed and this is all obvious and commonplace to most of the people on these forums? Or if the title does not call to people to look into it further? Or? Thoughts?

 

 

Not sure about why people aren't reading it-maybe they just don't know the book so aren't clicking on the thread to read.

 

I haven't read it, yet, but IMO the ideas of avoiding praise and emphasizing a growth vs. a fixed mindset are very similar to what I began to learn years ago, first through my close friendship with my medical school roommate of 3 years, who was Korean-American, and then through my long association with suzuki music programs, finally through reading the Tiger Mother book. It's simply the Asian way of thinking about intelligence, skill, and talent. My friend and I were talking about math and her son's discovery that Algebra is harder than arithmetic. His first exam, he did not get his accustomed "A" and she told me he immediately decided he had to spend more time reviewing, and in thinking about homework answers he got wrong. Growth mindset. She said she was so thrilled, but also that when she grew up, in Korea until she was 13, there simply isn't the concept of "being good at math." If you are doing poorly in math, you aren't trying hard enough, because, as everyone in Korea apparently knows, math is really hard and requires a lot of time and work. She says the idea that being good at math is a gift of the genetic lottery simply doesn't exist there. But she was afraid that her son's thinking might have been poisoned by growing up here in America! LOL.

 

I do think, though, that in general it's typical for the "Asian mindset" to be oriented toward growth, and away from fixed. Suzuki is another great example. Teaching children how to practice regularly and correctly is one of the major goals of a suzuki program, and a part of this is accomplished through strong parent-child bonds. Avoidance of evaluative criticism is too. I think that is another aspect of learning how to talk to a child to foster a growth mindset: avoid making value judgements about their finished product, and instead assess their effort. Remember Tiger Mother's rejection of her daughter's Mother's Day card because it was half-hearted effort?

[T'smom]

I've almost finished this book. Based on other things I have read in the past, I've tried praising effort instead of achievement, but it seems hard to come up with things to say sometimes. I wish there had been more examples of that in the book.

 

Also, I found the section on developing relationship/social skills interesting. Especially because I've been in a particular social situation lately that I am not very good at.....but I don't really know HOW to go about gaining skills in that area.

[Soror]

I don't know if there is a perfect thing to say. I do encourage them through challenges, if it is making it up a big hill or a challenging Math problem. I think we as Americans probably think too much about it sometimes. I praise the effort, acknowledge the hard work and talk about how good it feels to succeed after trying so hard. I also thought it was interesting how she talks about if they do really well easily then to give them something harder and apologize for giving them something too easy. One thing I do at times is to also acknowledge before I give them something hard is to let them know that it will be challenging/hard. I thought at first that it would scare them but it doesn't, it frees them up to just try their best without worrying about failure and usually they are able to get it, of course you wouldn't say this if it wasn't true and you have to gauge the level of challenge well.

[briansmama]

I really want to read this book! Thank you for posting about it here. I too have been a longtime critic of praising kids as well as using rewards for learning. I wonder if the book addresses intrinsic vs extrinsic motivation?

 

We have one child who does find that most things come easily to him- both athletically and academically. We put him in piano lessons for the sole purpose of giving him something challenging to work hard to master. It's been great for him, a lot like daily practice solving challenging puzzles.

 

Does the author give other suggestions for building strong work habits?

[Mukmuk]

I read the book several years ago and completely bought into the idea. In my pre Mindset days, it would have irked me to say "how smart" a lot, just as much as if I praised my child's good looks all the time. But I definitely did say it. The book however, struck a chord with me. My own family upbringing was centered around how "smart" one was, and I thoroughly disliked that uncomfortable feeling when I was praised. I didn't feel smart at all for not putting in effort and yet sometimes doing fairly well in school. The book empowered me with a new way of thinking, that a person had control of his or her grades. It sounds naive, but this was a very strong theme in my childhood. DH didn't have this to contend with, but he's a convert to Dweckology too.

 

With ds, we've had to work very hard to inculcate this idea. For starters, he was an early and advanced talker, so it was too easy for outsiders to praise him. He's also very good with math and spatial concepts, to the point where I seem less able than him in comparison. I try to balance all this by throwing him challenging work and providing mentors in math and science. This way, he knows I'm by no means the pinacle of knowledge, and bypassing me is really no big deal. I've worried about his ego in the past and have consequently been too hard on him when he gets too big for his boots. But as he becomes more mature, and as our family continues to focus on effort, he's buying into this value system as well. Physical sports is hard for my son, and he can see that how will he does is a positive correlation with hours spent practicing. I overtly point this out to ds every now and then :001_smile:. I'm really glad that the book has pointed us the way.

[Pen]

 

Not sure about why people aren't reading it-maybe they just don't know the book so aren't clicking on the thread to read.

 

I haven't read it, yet, but IMO the ideas of avoiding praise and emphasizing a growth vs. a fixed mindset are very similar to what I began to learn years ago, first through my close friendship with my medical school roommate of 3 years, who was Korean-American, and then through my long association with suzuki music programs, finally through reading the Tiger Mother book. It's simply the Asian way of thinking about intelligence, skill, and talent. My friend and I were talking about math and her son's discovery that Algebra is harder than arithmetic. His first exam, he did not get his accustomed "A" and she told me he immediately decided he had to spend more time reviewing, and in thinking about homework answers he got wrong. Growth mindset. She said she was so thrilled, but also that when she grew up, in Korea until she was 13, there simply isn't the concept of "being good at math." If you are doing poorly in math, you aren't trying hard enough, because, as everyone in Korea apparently knows, math is really hard and requires a lot of time and work. She says the idea that being good at math is a gift of the genetic lottery simply doesn't exist there. But she was afraid that her son's thinking might have been poisoned by growing up here in America! LOL.

 

I do think, though, that in general it's typical for the "Asian mindset" to be oriented toward growth, and away from fixed. Suzuki is another great example. Teaching children how to practice regularly and correctly is one of the major goals of a suzuki program, and a part of this is accomplished through strong parent-child bonds. Avoidance of evaluative criticism is too. I think that is another aspect of learning how to talk to a child to foster a growth mindset: avoid making value judgements about their finished product, and instead assess their effort. Remember Tiger Mother's rejection of her daughter's Mother's Day card because it was half-hearted effort?

 

 

I am thinking maybe it needs a title change by soror as thread starter that would reach out to people by subject who do not recognize "mindset"-- maybe something like "How to talk so children can learn: Book Discussion: Mindset" Maybe the people who most need it are the ones who won't recognize the book title? And the book title is not helpful for understanding what it is about. Also, I knew about the basic premise for years before I read the book, not realizing that it had a lot more to it than the idea of "praise for effort" which I had read about in a magazine many years ago. Only more recently did I read the whole book and realize that it is not so simple as that.

 

I also have seen threads that have stars at the top where one can rate the thread, and I'd like to give this one a top 5 star rating, because I think for any of us for whom it does not come naturally, who were not ourselves raised with a growth mindset, who are struggling to give it to our children, it is of key importance, but, at least for me, this thread does not give that option.

 

in re the "Asian mindset"--I have heard that sort of thing too. And yet also a conflicting sense of the Asian mindset as tending to produce excessive pressure and over-focus on success. And I am not sure how those things fit together since they both seem to be true at least for some -- not sure about Koreans, but for Chinese and Japanese both aspects seem to be there.

 

I also have heard that in some languages there is not even any way to say, "You are good at _____" that just as in some languages they say things that literally translate "I have hunger" or "I have thirst" not "I am ____" That that sort of now and forever sense of the verb "to be" just does not exist or is not used with evaluations of ability, so the problem of speaking that way does not exist.

 

I would love to know more about this and specifics about the other languages effect on such ideas.

[Pen]

 

 

Aha!!! Yes!!!! What do we say?

 

 

 

I tried this today, by saying that I expected something to be fun and also hard before we started into it. I think it helped.

[Barbara H]

I've almost finished this book. Based on other things I have read in the past, I've tried praising effort instead of achievement, but it seems hard to come up with things to say sometimes. I wish there had been more examples of that in the book.

 

 

It has been a while since I read Mindset so I don't remember the specific examples she uses, but here are a couple of thoughts that may be helpful.

 

One idea is just say a lot less. In our culture kids are getting so much external feedback and commentary so often. It can just become a sort of mindless habit to feel like we have to say something about everything kids do. I find that kids often do better if we say less in the way of evaluative comments and let them make their own observations. Too much attention for some kids can quickly lead to avoiding trying stuff they think they will fail at. If you do say something often less is more. So, instead of 10 "way to go - you are so athletic" Try one more insightful comment - "wow, it looks like you've worked really hard - that's a lot more somersaults in a row than you could do last week."

 

Another thing I've found really important, especially with perfectionist kids, is for parents to role model healthy thinking. Instead of "oh no I'm so bad at knitting this lace pattern" - "Wow, that one was tough. I had to take it out three times but I'm glad I stuck with it because I love it!" More than what we say kids see what we do. Modeling persistence in learning can make a big difference.

[ebunny]

This book influenced my thinking more than any other.( OK, that's not completely correct." .Outliers"and "Why do students hate school are equal favourites" )

 

Praising effort not ability is not really a revolutionary thought, if you think hard about it. But, as a species we are conditioned to always applaud success at something and ignore failure, regardless of the effort put into success/failure.in fact, the word fail is so burdened with negative connotation that its true value is overlooked.

 

My DD is the sort who learns most things effortlessly. Before reading the book, I would consciously praise her for the effort put into any action. It soon stopped when DD mentioned that the said acitivity did not require any effort on her part!

 

Post reading Mindset, I have ramped up the rigor in academics/music and preface every new skill to be practised with what Carol Dweck has recommended. "the brain is a muscle....". It has helped tremendously. Pre Mindset, Dd would balk at anything difficult. Now, she knows that doing something challenging,* whether one succeeds or not*, is a joy in itself.

 

Relatives/friends do comment on her natural ability and praise her for it, and that is not within my control. But since she spends more time with me and Dh, hopefully her values are shaped by the growth mindset.

 

I would also add that I do remind DD that each person has his/her innate strengths and abilities. What comes naturally to DD may not be as easy for her friend and vice versa. I really avoid comparisons between children because of this vital factor. It would be unfair to compare DD with her natural athleticism with her friend who struggles with coordination.

 

I would also attribute Dd's willingness to take calculated risks to Mindset'. She is less afraid to fail (used to be a perfectionist) because I keep harping on equal importance of Failure and success. :-D

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Arcadia]

in re the "Asian mindset"--I have heard that sort of thing too. And yet also a conflicting sense of the Asian mindset as tending to produce excessive pressure and over-focus on success. And I am not sure how those things fit together since they both seem to be true at least for some -- not sure about Koreans, but for Chinese and Japanese both aspects seem to be there.

 

I'll try to explain for Chinese. In a growth mindset, less emphasis is on innate ability and more emphasis is on overcoming the odds. So be it academic success or career success, failure could mean the person has not tried hard enough, or the parents have not "provide" enough. That leads to stress on both the child and parents. If it is a fixed mindset, that outcome is already predetermined by genes and so there is no pressure as if you are smart you are made, if you are average than there is nothing to change it.

[Pen]

I'll try to explain for Chinese. In a growth mindset, less emphasis is on innate ability and more emphasis is on overcoming the odds. So be it academic success or career success, failure could mean the person has not tried hard enough, or the parents have not "provide" enough. That leads to stress on both the child and parents. If it is a fixed mindset, that outcome is already predetermined by genes and so there is no pressure as if you are smart you are made, if you are average than there is nothing to change it.

 

 

Now I understand. That is like the American idea that everyone can pull him/herself up by his/her own bootstraps, and that anyone who has not achieved great success did not try hard enough. We do have that side of things. But we seem to have more the side that notices Edison's genius, rather than his own statement that most of genius consists of perspiration (that is, of hard work).

 

What about the Chinese language itself? Do sentences form such that one would say evaluative things like "you are smart" or "you are athletic" or "you are good at mathematics"? Or is it somehow expressed differently?

 

I know that I sometimes heard English from recent Chinese immigrant parents of a friend when I was a kid that gives a hint of differences, like questions answered with the positive verb if affirmative or a negation and the verb if not. ( Qn: Are you going to the store? Affirmative answer: Go. Negative answer: No go.) And I have a feeling I have also heard a somewhat harsh sounding "You no try. You no work." as a response to something not going well, where in similar circumstances, I would have heard a kinder sounding, but probably ultimately more damaging, "Well, I guess _______ just isn't your forte."

[Soror]

. But, as a species we are conditioned to always applaud success at something and ignore failure, regardless of the effort put into success/failure.in fact, the word fail is so burdened with negative connotation that its true value is overlooked.

 

My DD is the sort who learns most things effortlessly. Before reading the book, I would consciously praise her for the effort put into any action. It soon stopped when DD mentioned that the said acitivity did not require any effort on her part!

 

Post reading Mindset, I have ramped up the rigor in academics/music and preface every new skill to be practised with what Carol Dweck has recommended. "the brain is a muscle....". It has helped tremendously. Pre Mindset, Dd would balk at anything difficult. Now, she knows that doing something challenging,* whether one succeeds or not*, is a joy in itself.

 

 

 

I don't think it is a species thing, but rather just our own culture, which is a bit whack on some things.

 

I've been working with dd as well. Yesterday, I was telling her that we need to find her some harder work when she was breezing through part of her work and she was agreeing with me. She is a perfectionist but is getting much better in trying things that are harder. She was thinking about one of her problems and usually she would give up but she just sat and thought until she got it. Knowing that she can get frustrated easily sometimes I want to step in to help her when I just need to let her struggle a bit, so I just kept quiet. I'm so glad to be aware of this at her young age, instead of what I got which was well-intentioned, but damaging praise for how smart I was.

 

I'm working hard to deprogram myself in those aspects to which I've adopted a closed mindset. I'm working on my internal scripts, if I want to do something I have to figure out my goal and how I can work towards that goal with concrete plans. Just the knowledge that I can work hard and succeed is so freeing. Ironic to me accepting that intelligence is not some fixed point has made me feel so much smarter then all those, your so smarts I've received.. I can work harder to learn, there are people smarter than me or not as smart, none of which matters to me personally because it is up to me to do as well as I want to do. I can accept that it has nothing to do with my inherent worth though, because it is not inherent. A small example for me was the fact that I generally consider myself to be not very good at reading and following instructions, I find following pictures much easier, as I'm sure most would. Dh is very good at this, he's also read 1000s of pages of various manuals to figure them out. I usually default to him on figuring things out and then teach me. Lame, huh? Last week I read dd's jewelry book and figured out how to finish them off with knots and connectors, whereas before I had deferred that task to dh. Ds wanted me to fold a cube. I had a hard time figuring out the instructions but I kept trying and actually did it. I know those are small things but it is really representative of how I viewed my ability in certain areas. Dh has more practice and has a natural adeptness and interest which I don't have. He might get it faster but that doesn't mean I cannot figure it out.

 

I can certainly see that there is a danger to taking this idea to far, as evidenced by the suicide rates within certain populations. Whenever all the pressure is on you and the only acceptable outcome is to be the best, this is bound to happen, as not everyone can be the best. The focus can be too narrow as well, ignoring the whole child. I do like how Dweck looks at the various aspects of life affected by Mindset, not just education.

[Pen]

I don't think it is a species thing, but rather just our own culture, which is a bit whack on some things.

 

I've been working with dd as well. Yesterday, I was telling her that we need to find her some harder work when she was breezing through part of her work and she was agreeing with me. She is a perfectionist but is getting much better in trying things that are harder. She was thinking about one of her problems and usually she would give up but she just sat and thought until she got it and I kept quiet. Knowing that she can get frustrated easily sometimes I want to step in to help her when I just need to let her struggle a bit. I'm so glad to start this at her young age, instead of what I got was (well-intentioned) praise for how smart I was.

 

I'm working hard to deprogram myself in those aspects to which I'm adopted a closed mindset.

 

I can certainly see that there is a danger to taking this idea to far, as evidenced by the suicide rates within certain populations. Whenever all the pressure is on you and the only acceptable outcome is to be the best, this is bound to happen, as not everyone can be the best. The focus can be too narrow as well, ignoring the whole child. I do like how Dweck looks at the various aspects of life affected by Mindset, not just education.

 

 

All of the above resonates for me.

 

I am also thinking that not everything needs to be worked on in the same way, that some things need to be relaxed, but I am not then sure how this plays out with regard to brain development in general and mindset in general. For example, my son is taking fencing, and does not like his sessions one on one with the coach because they are "too hard". Or, in other words, in those sessions he is being worked hard and stretched to improve. I am not sure at the moment if I should be trying to get him to have an effort and improvement mindset about this, or is it fine if he just wants to have fun and do practice bouts at the level he is at. In terms of the fencing itself, it does not matter to me if he becomes an excellent fencer or not, it is really his hobby and seems like what he wants to do with it should be his decision and that not everything should be pressured. On the other hand, however, if he practices that attitude of not doing something because it is "too hard" doesn't that strengthen the neurological connections, not just for fencing, but for that attitude in general for all things?

 

So I feel like there has got to be a good medium point, but not sure how to achieve that. And I was not brought up with a growth mindset myself, so it all is an area I have to work at actively, not something that comes at all naturally to me.

[beaners]

I didn't like the book. I feel awful admitting that when everyone else seems to have loved it. I found it interesting, but I would have been content reading the summary of it in another book. (Which I can't, for the life of me, remember the title of now.)

 

It's been more than a year since I read it, so I'm trying to remember what about it I disliked. I like the idea of people being capable of more than we expect, and I like the idea of hard work. I can recall one point where she mentions that something doesn't apply to the top (and bottom?) 10% of all IQs. That is a LOT of people to dismiss, and frankly, if the goal is to be able to achieve certain things, those are the people you are "competing" against.

 

There is good stuff in it, and I really like techniques for disputing and decatastrophizing (is that the right word?) in general, so those aspects appealed to me. I think I'm too cynical to embrace the idea that praise is going to erase any and all other advantages and disadvantages, especially because the majority of the people who are picking up on it already have a lot of advantages, you know? I think the findings are interesting. I liked the parts that tie in to Seligman's work on optimism and learned helplessness. I don't like how it's supposed to be this secret back door road leading your child to the top of the pack.

[Soror]

 

It's been more than a year since I read it, so I'm trying to remember what about it I disliked. I like the idea of people being capable of more than we expect, and I like the idea of hard work. I can recall one point where she mentions that something doesn't apply to the top (and bottom?) 10% of all IQs. That is a LOT of people to dismiss, and frankly, if the goal is to be able to achieve certain things, those are the people you are "competing" against.

 

It is not about trying to be at the top of the pack though, that is the whole point. The goal is to help your own child do the best they can and to not be limited by your or their perceptions of their ability. The point is that having this perception that the idea that you have no chance due to the to 10% is the most limiting factor, not the IQ itself, after all having a higher IQ is only correlated to greater success up until a certain point anyway. My point in encouraging my children in a positive way is not so I can do some mental trick that will end them up outdoing everyone else, the great point was that those w/ a growth mindset let go of that comparison and just strive to learn and better themselves, which is a much better goal. There will always be those that are smarter and more athletic if that is your benchmark of success you will always be a failure and likely jealous (ime anyway). Instead of looking at them as doing better the more productive path is to see what you can learn from those who are more successful.

[beaners]

It is not about trying to be at the top of the pack though, that is the whole point. The goal is to help your own child do the best they can and to not be limited by your or their perceptions of their ability. The point is that having this perception that the idea that you have no chance due to the to 10% is the most limiting factor, not the IQ itself, after all having a higher IQ is only correlated to greater success up until a certain point anyway. My point in encouraging my children in a positive way is not so I can do some mental trick that will end them up outdoing everyone else, the great point was that those w/ a growth mindset let go of that comparison and just strive to learn and better themselves, which is a much better goal. There will always be those that are smarter and more athletic if that is your benchmark of success you will always be a failure and likely jealous (ime anyway). Instead of looking at them as doing better the more productive path is to see what you can learn from those who are more successful.

 

I'm not looking at it from the perspective that my children aren't in the top 10% so we shouldn't bother. (Quite the opposite, but I'm obviously biased there.) It's great to look at this as helping you or your child do the best that they can. As I said, I like those and a few other aspects. I've seen this book on more than one "How to Get Your Little Snowflake Into Harvard" blog post, and that probably influences my opinion.

[Soror]

Oh, well, I didn't get the impression Dr. Dweck wrote her book as a how-to for getting kids into Harvard. Of course we all read books with our own perspective and life experiences which changes how we interpret them. I actually seen this book as the antithesis of that kind of book. To me it was about reorienting how we define smart and success, which in all honesty could be detrimental to such goals. I felt it was pretty explicit that comparisons weren't really helpful. I guess though that given the fact that those of a growth mindset could use that as an excuse to really push their kids, as we've seen in some Asian cultures. Hmm. I did see that she strongly discouraged the kind of coach/teacher/business professional that denigrates their underlings in order to push them into success. I really liked how she talked about how those who were successful leaders of others did that through a respect for the person and encouragement.

[Arcadia]

What about the Chinese language itself? Do sentences form such that one would say evaluative things like "you are smart" or "you are athletic" or "you are good at mathematics"? Or is it somehow expressed differently?

 

 

"Traditional" Chinese is lavish with praise on others and "stingy" with praise on our own kids. Our formal language can be very flowery and our informal language can be very curt. "You are good at math" would translate to "You have math talent" in chinese, and school teachers do praise. However they tend to do that such as "You have math talent but you need to put in effort so that your writing is more legible and you have less careless mistakes" or "You did well and I can see you have put in a lot of effort, continue your good work"

 

What my older got from one of his public school teacher to me (but kid was around) was "He is already so ahead I am not worried about him missing school." (for a trip to Legoland during school term). Another teacher said "He is so smart in math you won't ever need to worry for him" :huh: . Since I have only experience with my neighborhood school teachers, I can't tell whether the way they praise is the norm.

[Pen]

...

There is good stuff in it, and I really like techniques for disputing and decatastrophizing (is that the right word?) in general, so those aspects appealed to me.

 

See below *

 

 

 

I think I'm too cynical to embrace the idea that praise is going to erase any and all other advantages and disadvantages, especially because the majority of the people who are picking up on it already have a lot of advantages, you know? I think the findings are interesting. I liked the parts that tie in to Seligman's work on optimism and learned helplessness. I don't like how it's supposed to be this secret back door road leading your child to the top of the pack.

 

See below ***

 

* I read it recently and don't recall that decatastrophizing was a part of this book. Maybe someone else will, but maybe you are thinking of a different book. ????

 

 

*** On the contrary, it gave examples where people tried to use this to get somewhere like "the top of the pack" would have it backfire. It isn't about that.

Nor is it about praise erasing advantages and disadvantages.

 

And in studies done, people using this technique tended to increase benefits all around for everyone, because it is also about growth mindset when dealing with other people in our lives, not just self and own children, and teaching children to do that.

 

Nor do I recall a place where it said it did not apply to the top or bottom 10%.

 

Maybe my memory is off. Maybe we all see what we want to see.

[beaners]

In the beginning there was discussion on how a bad grade doesn't mean you're going to fail the entire course, etc. It related well to the other books I was reading about decatastrophizing at the same time, but I don't think it spends much time on it.

 

You're right, it wasn't 10%. It was the top 1 or 2% and the bottom 2 and 3%. The quote I'm remembering was on pages 55 and 56. It's not a central feature to the book.

 

I know everybody loves the book and thinks it is great. I just didn't like it when I read it more than a year ago. I'm not up to reading it again to find what it was that I disliked so much when I spent the majority of the first read-through wishing I had stopped at the excerpt in Nurtureshock. (Yay, I remembered the title!) I'm probably just too stuck in my fixed mindset to appreciate it. :blush:

[Mukmuk]

Beaners, I don't mean to cast a spotlight on what you're saying. But you struck on something I was thinking about.

 

So as a result of my upbringing (smart = great and vice versa, according to my family) and my efforts to reject that, I developed a "live life the way you want" philosophy. I didn't do too badly on that. I naturally push myself if I want something anyway. Then came ds, who, at least at a young age, can have an insatiable appetite for certain things. It can be Lego, electric circuits, building a prototype swing or some electric fishing reel winder, anything. If he's not in that mode, he can be frightful to deal with. And if he's in that mode, he can be a greater mess because he can be so frustrated. I have to say that echoing Carol Dweck's words like a mantra really helps to re-focus his efforts. It isn't so that he/anyone can be in the top 10% or 1%. That's overtly comparative to a wider population base. But when he's the best that he can be, he's happy and fulfilled. And if he's happy, I'm happy :001_smile:.

 

{I havent read up on pg 55 and don't mean this as a direct response}.

[ebunny]

 

 

* I read it recently and don't recall that decatastrophizing was a part of this book. Maybe someone else will, but maybe you are thinking of a different book. ????

 

 

*** On the contrary, it gave examples where people tried to use this to get somewhere like "the top of the pack" would have it backfire. It isn't about that.

Nor is it about praise erasing advantages and disadvantages.

 

And in studies done, people using this technique tended to increase benefits all around for everyone, because it is also about growth mindset when dealing with other people in our lives, not just self and own children, and teaching children to do that.

 

Nor do I recall a place where it said it did not apply to the top or bottom 10%.

 

Maybe my memory is off. Maybe we all see what we want to see.

 

 

I second this..maybe Beaners has Mindset confused with a different book.?

I did not see the 'decatastrophizing" techniqueanywhere in the book. Are there multiple editions of the book out with revisions/additions?

 

 

[Pen]

 

You're right, it wasn't 10%. It was the top 1 or 2% and the bottom 2 and 3%. The quote I'm remembering was on pages 55 and 56. It's not a central feature to the book.

 

 

 

I think in a book discussion having someone who did not like the book is great for adding perspective and dimension to the discussion.

 

However, I am still thinking it might be a different book that you read and do not like, because I am on pages 55-56 right now and see no such quote.

 

In my edition pages 55-56 are the start of chapter 3 "The Truth About Ability and Accomplishment" and not only am I not seeing such a quote, the thrust of the chapter is the opposite. It starts with Edison as an example, discussing how Growth Mindset is important at that end of the spectrum (and gives other examples at the "prodigy" end also), and then later has other examples such as Marva Collins's students, including ones labeled "retarded" and discusses how growth mindset is also important at that end of the spectrum--as well as in the middle. Even if we have different editions, I cannot see anywhere a bit before or after the 55-56 in my book where there could have been a quote saying that the growth mindset does not apply to "the top 1 or 2% and the bottom 2 and 3%." It not only seems like it would not be a central feature of the book, but it is contrary to the message of the book.

 

Could you take a look at yours again and try to clarify? While I think having someone who does not like it will be an excellent addition to the discussion, I think it is important that we all actually be discussing the same book and accurately so.

 

 

 

 

By the way, at around page 214-215 Dweck discusses cognitive therapy (the sort of psychology that involves "disputing" and "decatastrophizing") approvingly, but also goes on to say that from the research she and her colleagues did, it does not go far enough, and then goes on to discuss that.

 

The whole idea that it is about "competing" against others rather than being your own best as you might have been led to by blogs you have read about getting little snowflake into Harvard ( I wonder why are you reading such blogs if they annoy you), or whatever that was, misses the whole thrust of the book, and might well have greatly colored your feelings and experience of it--if it actually is the same book that you read.