G.A. Henty books

[kwg]

We tried one and I must admit it was confusing a bit- A Knight Of the WHite Cross. Maybe we didn't give it a fair shake? Is there a better one to start with?

 

Are they ok for a ten year old? I notice they are on a few book lists.

[trudence1]

I introduced them to my kids as audios and both my DS9 and DS11 like them...but the older one enjoys them more. He is a very wordy writer with lots of description and that is what makes it harder for a younger child IMO. They have really made some periods of history alive for us. My oldest says his favorite so far is "The Young Cartheginian," HTH.

 

Edit to add: My oldest is an avid reader and is now reading the books on his own, but there is no way my younger, a more reluctant reader, would want to even start one. =)

[Susan of Croton]

I read aloud Henty books for years to my kids when they were K-6. It seems like a lot of work at first, but it trains the ear for Dickens and builds a huge vocab. Plus, the history is accurate. The voice is English Protestant. We enjoyed "With Lee in Virginia" for a rebel's view of the Civil War, and my DS8thgrader loved "With Kitchener in the Soudan" Honestly, there is no greater collection of 19thc boys' adventure lit. Now, I have kids that read these books on their own and even Dickens, too. They are not put off by the long sentences and Latin derivative diction. Good luck!

[Hunter]

The books can be very racist, unfortunately. I do think they are academically useful. I struggle with whether or not to use these books with any student, and don't even think of using them at all with some.

[kwg]

The books can be very racist, unfortunately. I do think they are academically useful. I struggle with whether or not to use these books with any student, and don't even think of using them at all with some.

 

 

 

Not liking that.

 

He is a very good reader so it could be that he is just not ready. Maybe we will do one as a read aloud and see how it goes.

[Spy Car]

Extremely and explicitly racist books.

 

Bill

[Melissa in Australia]

Extremely and explicitly racist books.

 

Bill

 

when reading them you have to remember they were written a long time ago. The books first started being published in 1870.

I would say the books are no more racist than other books written during that time frame.

[AMJ]

Thanks for mentioning an author and your thoughts. I Googled the author, and discovered he wrote back in the 1800's, so yes, I'm sure his stuff reflects the common social assumptions of the time. When I was in college I did a study of children's books on archaeology over time, which was very enlightening on the changes in views over decades and generations.

 

I'll pre-read before introducing Henley to my kids. They could be useful for teaching my kids about how societies' attitudes evolve and change.

[Melissa in Australia]

I found after reading a few that he basically uses the same plot over and over, just with different characters.

I did find all the ones I read very interesting and as most historical fiction, it gives insight into how people lived in past times.

[Hunter]

I DO think Henty is more racist than some other books from the same period. Sometimes it just appears so, though, because the books are dealing with subject matter where racism comes up more often. And as Wendy said, reading the same worldview 50 or so times, can have a big impact on a student.

[kiana]

If reading these books, I would definitely make sure to discuss his worldview vs. modern worldview in a 'he thought these things were true, but we know better now' fashion. I'd also make sure to include books which I consider "anti-racist", such as "Roll of Thunder, Hear My Cry", so that I could discuss how damaging these viewpoints are.

[shinyhappypeople]

Extremely and explicitly racist books.

 

Bill

 

Will you give some examples? I've never read any of his books.

[kiana]

Well, here's one often-cited example from a character in "By Sheer Pluck"

"They [negroes] are just like children … They are always either laughing or quarrelling. They are good-natured and passionate, indolent, but will work hard for a time; clever up to a certain point, densely stupid beyond. The intelligence of an average negro is about equal to that of a European child of ten years old. … They are fluent talkers, but their ideas are borrowed. They are absolutely without originality, absolutely without inventive power. Living among white men, their imitative faculties enable them to attain a considerable amount of civilization. Left alone to their own devices they retrograde into a state little above their native savagery."

 

There are many other examples, but this attitude pervades some of his books. If your children are mature enough to say "Well, wow. Even though he's cast as the hero/hero's mentor in the book, he sure has some asinine attitudes!", then they may be workable.

[stripe]

when reading them you have to remember they were written a long time ago. The books first started being published in 1870.

I would say the books are no more racist than other books written during that time frame.

 

Sure, but how relevant is that? If they are more racist than I am comfortable with (a funny expression), no matter how many other, similarly racist books from that time period, then I would rather read something else! I am not stuck in that time period, so I can "time travel" to the modern age and read books about interesting and intelligent people with dark skin AND brains too. I don't plan to have my children read material that denigrates their ethnic heritage, or that of other people. This is coming from someone who was irritated to see a Louisa May Alcott story in My Book House (Little Gulliver) with the little negro child speaking in dialect. "I'se black," said Moppet with a sob...."Nobody in de world keres for me." Yuck. It's a serious pet peeve to have words like "iz" or "waz" written in "dialect" spelling, as if anyone says "is" or "was" to rhyme with "miss." Maybe the story is attempting to be open mind, but....I cringed when I saw it.

 

They can read and analyze racist garbage when they are older, or try to sift out the intellectual gems from the baloney. But for young children, I have a hard time believing I would become sufficiently desperate to give it to someone whose very self-image, and view of others in the world, could be damaged by reading something that presumes they have less worth as a person or less intelligence because of their heritage.

 

Rivka told me the original Bobbsey Twins were racist, as well as generally bizarre, and I looked it up --wow! Was she right!

 

Wow, I will have to look those up! (ETA: Wow! You weren't kidding! "You turned the rope," went on Danny maliciously. "If she dies, they'll put you in prison, Nan Bobbsey." But luckily the girl just fainted. And someone wasn't a very good student of ebonics. "I do declar', it looks most tremend'us real," said the cook. "It's a wonder to me yo' chillun can make sech t'ings." and then "Fire enjuns, am it, Freddie? Reckon yo' is gwine to be a fireman when yo' is a man, hey?" -- I like that the one thing the author doesn't have her change into dialect is "it's a wonder" -- and I wonder myself, how is "declar'" pronounced any differently than "declare"? And "Gracious sakes alive, chile!" burst out Dinah, and without waiting to put anything on her head she rushed forth into the garden. "Gib me dat shovel quick! He'll be stuffocated fo' yo' know it." even though in the illustration she has on her trusty kerchief and looks downright slim, in contrast to the constant descriptions of her as fat. Segregation play is in chapter vii. I'll let you save my life, I just won't play with you. Lawdy.)

 

[Spy Car]

 

 

when reading them you have to remember they were written a long time ago. The books first started being published in 1870.

I would say the books are no more racist than other books written during that time frame.

 

 

I disagree that they are no more racist than other works of that time. There is a weath of 19th Century literature that is not explicitly racist. Henty's novels are steeped attitudes of White (Anglo-Saxon Protestant) race/religious supremacy.

 

In his books non-whites are savages who either need to be killed or turned into servants, where the best of the lot can serve their white masters with loyalty.

 

The books are formulaic. One novel is basically the same as the next. They present a preposterous view of history. And at its core is a vile racism.

 

Why read this rubbish today?

 

Bill

 

 

[Spy Car]

 

 

Will you give some examples? I've never read any of his books.

 

 

Pick any one of them. Any people who stand against White (usually British) Imperial ambitions and refuse to be subjugated are conquered and/or killed, as necessary. There are slurs against every (non-white) race and non-Christian religion.

 

Every novel has some "good natives," who are almost all servants who love their masters (rather like a dog loves its master).

 

Read one for yourself, if you doubt it. I find Henty shocking and reprehensible. And am astounded that many outfits in the homeschooling world promote reading Henty as part of a "values education."

 

Bill

[twoxcell]

Pick any one of them. Any people who stand against White (usually British) Imperial ambitions and refuse to be subjugated (and/or killed, as necessary). There are slurs against every (non-white) race and non-Christian religion.

 

Every novel has some "good natives," who are almost all servants who love their masters (rather like a dog loves its master).

 

Read one for yourself, if you doubt it. I find Henty shocking and reprehensible. And am astounded that many outfits in the homeschooling world promote reading Henty as part of a "values education."

 

Bill

Interesting. :001_huh: I have never read any of his books so thanks for sharing.

[stripe]

Every novel has some "good natives," who are almost all servants who love their masters (rather like a dog loves its master).

 

Read one for yourself, if you doubt it. I find Henty shocking and reprehensible. And am astounded that many outfits in the homeschooling world promote reading Henty as part of a "values education."

 

Depends on whose values they are, doesn't it? Some people liked colonialism and slavery, or thought/think it was a caring relationship of caring for lesser species who couldn't handle life on their own, right?

 

I started reading Verne's Mysterious Island and stopped very early on, when I got to Chapter 2:

 

The two Americans had from the first determined to seize every chance; but although they were allowed to wander at liberty in the town, Richmond was so strictly guarded, that escape appeared impossible. In the meanwhile Captain Harding was rejoined by a servant who was devoted to him in life and in death. This intrepid fellow was a Negro born on the engineer's estate, of a slave father and mother, but to whom Cyrus, who was an Abolitionist from conviction and heart, had long since given his freedom. The once slave, though free, would not leave his master. He would have died for him. He was a man of about thirty, vigorous, active, clever, intelligent, gentle, and calm, sometimes naive, always merry, obliging, and honest. His name was Nebuchadnezzar, but he only answered to the familiar abbreviation of Neb.

When Neb heard that his master had been made prisoner, he left Massachusetts without hesitating an instant, arrived before Richmond, and by dint of stratagem and shrewdness, after having risked his life twenty times over, managed to penetrate into the besieged town. The pleasure of Harding on seeing his servant, and the joy of Neb at finding his master, can scarcely be described.

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1268/1268-h/1268-h.htm

 

I would much rather read books with kids of many backgrounds, even if most characters in book are able-bodied, upper middle class, Christian white American or British kids. It's enough that virtually every kids' book, especially of the antique variety, paints a picture where that's the default. I don't need to actively denigrate my children by reading books that directly insult people who look like them or their family members. In other words, it's not theory for me. I don't think the only way to be a strong man is to subjugate "primitive tribes" and endure a dumdum wife.

[Hunter]

If I remember correctly the Henty novels are "Christian". I think it was this author that was mixing Christianity with racism and that I was particularly uncomfortable with that mixture. I don't remember for certain though.

 

And as some of us said earlier, multiplied by 50, and applied repeatedly to so many countries and important events in history, I'm not comfortable about the outcome of this.

[Spy Car]

 

Depends on whose values they are, doesn't it? Some people liked colonialism and slavery, or thought/think it was a caring relationship of caring for lesser species who couldn't handle life on their own, right?

 

I started reading Verne's Mysterious Island and stopped very early on, when I got to Chapter 2:

 

The two Americans had from the first determined to seize every chance; but although they were allowed to wander at liberty in the town, Richmond was so strictly guarded, that escape appeared impossible. In the meanwhile Captain Harding was rejoined by a servant who was devoted to him in life and in death. This intrepid fellow was a Negro born on the engineer's estate, of a slave father and mother, but to whom Cyrus, who was an Abolitionist from conviction and heart, had long since given his freedom. The once slave, though free, would not leave his master. He would have died for him. He was a man of about thirty, vigorous, active, clever, intelligent, gentle, and calm, sometimes naive, always merry, obliging, and honest. His name was Nebuchadnezzar, but he only answered to the familiar abbreviation of Neb.

When Neb heard that his master had been made prisoner, he left Massachusetts without hesitating an instant, arrived before Richmond, and by dint of stratagem and shrewdness, after having risked his life twenty times over, managed to penetrate into the besieged town. The pleasure of Harding on seeing his servant, and the joy of Neb at finding his master, can scarcely be described.

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1268/1268-h/1268-h.htm

 

I would much rather read books with kids of many backgrounds, even if most characters in book are able-bodied, upper middle class, Christian white American or British kids. It's enough that virtually every kids' book, especially of the antique variety, paints a picture where that's the default. I don't need to actively denigrate my children by reading books that directly insult people who look like them or their family members. In other words, it's not theory for me. I don't think the only way to be a strong man is to subjugate "primitive tribes" and endure a dumdum wife.

 

It is not uncommon In Henty novels for there to be "the good native" character, who lives to serve his "master" and would happily lay down his life for his superior. These characters, even when given the chance of "freedom," far prefer living as faithful subservients.

 

In Henty's world those who don't accept domination by invadng White Christians are enemies of progress and are open to justifiable slaughter on their own land.

 

Some people may like this sort of thing.

 

Don't read "With Kitchener in the Soudan" if you're sensitive to vicious descriptions of Mussulmen/Mahomedans." I'm pretty confident you'd not like it.

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

Double post, sorry

[Melissa in Australia]

Pick any one of them. Any people who stand against White (usually British) Imperial ambitions and refuse to be subjugated are conquered and/or killed, as necessary. There are slurs against every (non-white) race and non-Christian religion.

 

Every novel has some "good natives," who are almost all servants who love their masters (rather like a dog loves its master).

 

Read one for yourself, if you doubt it. I find Henty shocking and reprehensible. And am astounded that many outfits in the homeschooling world promote reading Henty as part of a "values education."

 

Bill

What else would you expect from an author that was British right in the zenith of British Empire building times? The British Empire would not have expanded so much if the worldview wasn't that the rest of the world was full of non white non Christians that needed to be 'civilized " by "superior" countries. I find this very typical of books written during this time.

 

 

What I find extremely irritating is when books are censored to try and make them "fit in" with today's popular worldview instead of reading them in the context of when they were written.

[stripe]

What I find extremely irritating is when books are censored to try and make them "fit in" with today's popular worldview instead of reading them in the context of when they were written.

So the issue is if young children are the ideal audience today.

 

I don't consider not wanting my children to be seen as racially inferior a fad or part of "today's popular worldview."

[Spy Car]

 

What else would you expect from an author that was British right in the zenith of British Empire building times?

 

I might expect nuance, complexity, and literary value. All are lacking in Henty. His characters are cardboard cutouts. He is a hack writer, and the books are all formulaic re-tellings of the same basic story, just reset in different exotic settings.

 

Contrast Henty's work with Kipling (who as no anti-Imperalist) and the deficiencies of Henty are glaring. Kipling wrote literary masterpieces that included human complexity. Henty was jingoistic, wholly predictable, and a second-rate stylist.

 

The British Empire would not have expanded so much if the worldview wasn't that the rest of the world was full of non white non Christians that needed to be 'civilized " by "superior" countries. I find this very typical of books written during this time.

 

And some on the far-right here in the USA ( and I'm sure it is the same in Australia) re-publish these works because they still believe in the mission and that non-whites are racial inferiors. If these are peoples beliefs Henty is a sound choice for affirming those attitudes. If not, they might not make the best reading material.

 

 

What I find extremely irritating is when books are censored to try and make them "fit in" with today's popular worldview instead of reading them in the context of when they were written.

 

I thnk it is a very different thing for an adult to be able to read works like these and "contextualize them" as the racist anachronisms of a past time, and putting them into the hands of young people who may lack perspective. Worse yet is when groups adhere to the values in Henty and include them as examples of a "values education," as is the case in some quarters of the homeschooling movement here in the USA.

 

Bill

[klmama]

I know far-right homeschoolers who love Henty's books and who are aren't racist at all. I guess maybe they haven't read the ones you did?? I tried a few times and simply found them boring.

[SarahW]

Here is a "right" homeschooler who wrote a negative critique of Henty: http://www.keepersofthefaith.com/category/GAHentyBooks.html

 

This looks interesting: http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/3816540?uid=3739600&uid=2&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21101834357713

 

There are more articles about his works (that I don't have access to): Logan, Mawuena Kossi. "Henty and the Ashantis." Children's Literature Association Quarterly. 16.2 (1991): 82-86. Clark, Gail S. "Imperial Stereotypes: G.A. Henty and the Boys' Own Empire." Journal of Popular Culture. 18.4 (1985): 43-51.

 

Between the blog post and the JSTOR article I am completely reconfirmed in my belief that 99% of historical fiction is at best misleading, and at worst completely harmful. If you want to see what a late British imperial view of the world was, Henty is useful. But to learn about history? NOPE. To learn good morals? NOPE.

 

I don't understand why Henty is proclaimed all over the web for being "historically accurate." Because he got dates and places right? Learning about history is so much MORE than those two banal things.

 

I don't understand why so many classical homeschoolers push historical fiction when there is perfectly good fiction written BY THE PEOPLE THEMSELVES. And some of those stories have even be illustrated for kids!

 

And I don't understand why some people think that just because a book is a century old that therefore it must be good, and wholesome, and/or Christian.

 

Sorry, about the caps. It's been that sort of day.

[Spy Car]

I know far-right homeschoolers who love Henty's books and who are aren't racist at all. I guess maybe they haven't read the ones you did?? I tried a few times and simply found them boring.

 

I agree that the formulaic plots of the Henty books get boring, but forgive me for remaining skeptical of the racial attitudes of those on the far-right.

 

I think some perpetuate Henty's writing because they like his values. Flat out.

 

Bill

[Melissa in Australia]

I might expect nuance, complexity, and literary value. All are lacking in Henty. His characters are cardboard cutouts. He is a hack writer, and the books are all formulaic re-tellings of the same basic story, just reset in different exotic settings.

 

Contrast Henty's work with Kipling (who as no anti-Imperalist) and the deficiencies of Henty are glaring. Kipling wrote literary masterpieces that included human complexity. Henty was jingoistic, wholly predictable, and a second-rate stylist.

 

 

 

And some on the far-right here in the USA ( and I'm sure it is the same in Australia) re-publish these works because they still believe in the mission and that non-whites are racial inferiors. If these are peoples beliefs Henty is a sound choice for affirming those attitudes. If not, they might not make the best reading material.

 

 

 

 

I thnk it is a very different thing for an adult to be able to read works like these and "contextualize them" as the racist anachronisms of a past time, and putting them into the hands of young people who may lack perspective. Worse yet is when groups adhere to the values in Henty and include them as examples of a "values education," as is the case in some quarters of the homeschooling movement here in the USA.

 

Bill

I see where you are coming from Bill, and I think we are in agreeance more than you think. What I was trying to say was people shouldn't be so shocked by the raciest tone of the books if they consider what the worldview was when they were written.

And yes I do get my older children to read books and reflect about the tone of books according to when it was written, for example Robinson Crusoe. None of my children have read a Henty book. they are not bookworms and I have never assigned them one to read.

 

I agree about the attitude of some re. racial superiority. I actually had someone (homeschool mum) tell me she felt called to drag her large family to Cambodia and teach the poor how to grow vegetables and become good Christians. This lady has never herself had a vegetable garden but was sure that the "natives" would benefit form her wisdom.

[NASDAQ]

I'm answering this hypothetically. My understanding is that people like Henty because he has a certain faith perspective, and I don't share that particular faith perspective. AFAIK no one reads Henty except for that reason.

 

I do think that at a certain age, children do need to learn to appreciate some level of complexity. A great writer can be wrong. I would not have an objection to my children reading Oliver Twist, even though the negative stereotyping of Jews would require some discussion.

 

OTOH I think I would feel differently about pulp novels. It's one thing to say "We do not agree with everything Dickens said, but his work has redeeming value," and another to be saying that about, say, Nancy Drew (I know nothing about Nancy Drew who may well be a paragon of virtue, but you know what I mean).

 

Kipling is a wonderful adventure writer, and worthy of being an introduction to colonialism and racial attitudes in the 19th c. Or maybe King Solomon's Mines? There are so many great adventure stories that don't get enough play right now: The Lost World, The Land That Time Forgot, Jules Verne?

[NASDAQ]

Re: training for Dickens. I would think that some of the easier Dickens (Oliver Twist, for example) would be an adequate introduction.

 

There's also the option of working through one of the older series of readers, such as the McGuffey's. Those introduce antiquated language in a gradual fashion.

[Spy Car]

I'm answering this hypothetically. My understanding is that people like Henty because he has a certain faith perspective, and I don't share that particular faith perspective. AFAIK no one reads Henty except for that reason.

 

I do think that at a certain age, children do need to learn to appreciate some level of complexity. A great writer can be wrong. I would not have an objection to my children reading Oliver Twist, even though the negative stereotyping of Jews would require some discussion.

 

OTOH I think I would feel differently about pulp novels. It's one thing to say "We do not agree with everything Dickens said, but his work has redeeming value," and another to be saying that about, say, Nancy Drew (I know nothing about Nancy Drew who may well be a paragon of virtue, but you know what I mean).

 

Kipling is a wonderful adventure writer, and worthy of being an introduction to colonialism and racial attitudes in the 19th c. Or maybe King Solomon's Mines? There are so many great adventure stories that don't get enough play right now: The Lost World, The Land That Time Forgot, Jules Verne?

 

Charles Dickens at least attempted to atone for the anti-Semitism of the Fagin character in Oliver Twist by writing Our Mutual Friend, which presents a far more sympathetic attitude towards Jews.

 

Whatever limitations Dickens may have had in enlightenment he was a brilliant writer.

 

Henty? Not so much. His stories are boiler-plate. Zero complexity. His is a black and white world.

 

I don't see anything that is "redemptive" about his works. Not at all.

 

Bill

[PachiSusan]

I don't know if I should admit this or not, but I have never heard of this man or any of his writings.

[Spy Car]

I don't know if I should admit this or not, but I have never heard of this man or any of his writings.

 

Consider yourself fortunate.

 

Bill

 

[PachiSusan]

Consider yourself fortunate.

 

Bill

 

I guess so. LOL

 

This is an age old question though. Just how much of our history do we gloss over so that we dont' look bad, or to protect our kids from old prejudices...and how much do we SHARE so that they have a clear understanding of where we came from?

 

You posted this earlier in the thread:

 

I thnk it is a very different thing for an adult to be able to read works like these and "contextualize them" as the racist anachronisms of a past time, and putting them into the hands of young people who may lack perspective.

 

This is actually how I feel about quite a few very popular series and books for the masses. I won't mention the names because it never turns out well. I think that there is a time and a place for introducing uncomfortable beliefs, actions, or ideas...and many of them are NOT for young children until they have gotten past a bit of character formation and ability to discern for themselves the aberration.

[MrsBasil]

I don't know if I should admit this or not, but I have never heard of this man or any of his writings.

 

I had never heard of him until I started researching homeschooling. My impression is that many were reprinted for a homeschooling audience in the last 20 years. Wikipedia says that Arthur Robinson was a big advocate of his books for use in the Robinson Curriculum.

[NASDAQ]

 

This is actually how I feel about quite a few very popular series and books for the masses. I won't mention the names because it never turns out well. I think that there is a time and a place for introducing uncomfortable beliefs, actions, or ideas...and many of them are NOT for young children until they have gotten past a bit of character formation and ability to discern for themselves the aberration.

 

You've got a girl a bit ahead of mine. Is it my imagination, or are there a nearly infinite number of series of girls' books, many with absolutely no redeeming value and lots of problematic parts to boot? And they are all huge series' worth. It's like The Baby Sitters Club and Sweet Valley Twins were left in the dark together and spawned an entire genre.

 

IOW, I will put up with some rudeness from Pippi Longstocking, but Junie B. Jones is insufferable.

[PachiSusan]

You've got a girl a bit ahead of mine. Is it my imagination, or are there a nearly infinite number of series of girls' books, many with absolutely no redeeming value and lots of problematic parts to boot? And they are all huge series' worth. It's like The Baby Sitters Club and Sweet Valley Twins were left in the dark together and spawned an entire genre.

 

IOW, I will put up with some rudeness from Pippi Longstocking, but Junie B. Jones is insufferable.

 

LOL - someone mentioned Nancy Drew a while back. I would KILL for my daughter to read them and love them like I did. I have the entire original series (before it got updated and destroyed IMO) from 1-55 in hard cover, but she has no desire to read them. SOB!!

 

I have 2-3 boxes full of my old books I wanted my daughter to read. So far - zilch.

 

Little House on the Prairie too...Laura just doesn't capture her heart like she did mine.

 

I disliked BSC and SVT, and I despise Junie B. Jones and Diary of a Wimpy Kid. I am even one who doesn't like Judy Blume much.

 

However, I was talking about a whole different genre of books...and those are just too hot to discuss in mixed company. LOL

[kiwik]

My grandmother hated kipling for the same reasons as some of you hate Henty - she would accept the jungle book and just so stories though. It sounds like they should be read at a later stage as part of a look at certain unsavoury aspects of out past. I think I read uncle tom's cabin at about 11 and I remember my mother explaining a few points that went over my head.

[kwg]

Does anyone know of any recommendations of what would be a good series of adventure novels for boys set in historical times? My ds read The Roman Mysteries several years ago and loved them.

[Down_the_Rabbit_Hole]

Sure, but how relevant is that? If they are more racist than I am comfortable with (a funny expression), no matter how many other, similarly racist books from that time period, then I would rather read something else! I am not stuck in that time period, so I can "time travel" to the modern age and read books about interesting and intelligent people with dark skin AND brains too. I don't plan to have my children read material that denigrates their ethnic heritage, or that of other people. This is coming from someone who was irritated to see a Louisa May Alcott story in My Book House (Little Gulliver) with the little negro child speaking in dialect. "I'se black," said Moppet with a sob...."Nobody in de world keres for me." Yuck. It's a serious pet peeve to have words like "iz" or "waz" written in "dialect" spelling, as if anyone says "is" or "was" to rhyme with "miss." Maybe the story is attempting to be open mind, but....I cringed when I saw it.

 

They can read and analyze racist garbage when they are older, or try to sift out the intellectual gems from the baloney. But for young children, I have a hard time believing I would become sufficiently desperate to give it to someone whose very self-image, and view of others in the world, could be damaged by reading something that presumes they have less worth as a person or less intelligence because of their heritage.

 

Rivka told me the original Bobbsey Twins were racist, as well as generally bizarre, and I looked it up --wow! Was she right!

 

I don't see how writing in dialect is racist. I have known people who spoke just like that. I never thought anything less of them in person as I do the character speaking the dialect portion in a book.

[Melissa in Australia]

My children have really enjoyed Bethlehem books

[kwg]

:lurk5:

 

My son loves history books of any kind. He has enjoyed many of the Landmark books. He liked the Horrible Histories. I don't know that those fit the bill, but I'm interested in finding more too.

 

Yep! He has read these over and over. I am about ready to hide them :p. I could get more Landmark Books. I wish there was a set I could purchase.

[Hunter]

PachiSusan, there are a lot of people using correspondance and B&M schools that have never heard of them. Unless you have a hole to fill in your curriculum, they are not that attractive to most people.

 

Does anyone know of any recommendations of what would be a good series of adventure novels for boys set in historical times? My ds read The Roman Mysteries several years ago and loved them.

 

I don't know of another comparable series to Henty. Although I despise the worldview of the Henty books, I understand why some families resort to using them. I do struggle with those families that unabashedly use and recommend them with no discussion and warning of their deficits at all. But mom that are overwhelmed and just...order them for their kids--I get it; I do. They instantly fill in a hole that I don't know of anything else that will.

[SarahW]

 

This is an age old question though. Just how much of our history do we gloss over so that we dont' look bad, or to protect our kids from old prejudices...and how much do we SHARE so that they have a clear understanding of where we came from?

 

Sorry, I don't know if this is actually an answer to your question, but is peripheral to some things NASDAQ and others brought up.

 

Henty is an example of a particular worldview. I think that worldview is worthwhile to discuss, though as others have said, they could possibly be better discussed with Dickens or others. My big problem with Henty is that he doesn't apply his worldview to just his own historical time, like Dickens did, he applies his prejudices and ideas to other times in history as well. How easy is it to sort out what is an actual historical view point and what is Henty's addition in a story? Not very. It may be fun for Historians to puzzle over, but the mixture makes the whole worthless for understanding history.

 

Apparently, Henty wrote a book about the Crimean War, which he was actually involved in, so that book may have historical value. But the rest? I'd say an emphatic no. Just the examples of "history" in the blog I linked to made me lulz all night. That's the difference.

[stripe]

I don't see how writing in dialect is racist. I have known people who spoke just like that. I never thought anything less of them in person as I do the character speaking the dialect portion in a book.

Writing "iz" and "waz" when a black person says "is" and writing "is" and "was" when a white person says the same thing in the SAME WAY ("is" is always pronounced "iz"), or writing that "Ching said we were having 'lice' for dinner," when the r/l issue is not even common among Chinese people, is generally used in other ways than merely reporting how someone speaks. Besides, even if a Brooklyn accent or a Texas twang or whatever is written out, the speaker is presumed to have no accent. Does every character living in a Boston get to say "cah" and "pahk"? Really? Would you find it easy to read a book set in Boston where every character talked like that? Have you ever read a book where the King or Queen of England's speech was written down the way they "really" talk ("Hoh aaare you, todeay?"), and that wouldn't be suggesting anything other than a dispassionate depiction of how they talk? Have you ever read an article about the governor of Michigan talking about the imporent effect new jabs kin have on the ecanamy? Would you really suggest including those in, say, newspaper articles? Or if a French dignitary is visiting, should we write down that he said "zee" instead of "the"? When is it accurate, and when it is a farce? Because guess what? Everyone has an accent. But most people don't hear their own: they think that's the way it is supposed to sound. By only writing down black/Asian/"foreign" accents, a judgment is being made. And it's virtually never a good judgment. And that's leaving out things like lisps and speech impediments ("C-c-can you c-c-come up here?" the mayor asked Mrs. Smith). Because I certainly never remember reading Michael Phelps's speech written down funny simply because he lisps. But it is obvious when you hear him talk.

 

Furthermore, most white people who write in black dialect do it wrong, e.g. this discussion on Diane Rehm on the use of "Ebonics" in The Help.

http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2010-12-23/readers-review-help-kathryn-stockett-rebroadcast/transcript

[stripe]

I agree. If one is going to write about a particular group of people it is accurate to capture the way they talk. It's not a judgement of the way they talk. And it doesn't mean that every single person in a particular area talks that way.

In old must books, no black person DOESN'T talk in dialect, no black woman doesn't wear a kerchief, and so on. I had a quote from an original Bobbsey Twins book where the text said the black maid ran out of the house without a kerchief, but the accompanying illustration showed her with one. Just like all black people must have their precise skin color described (chocolate, coal, coffee, etc), whereas the same is skipped for those who are white. We don't need to concern ourselves with how dusky or rosy they are.

[funathome]

We love Henty!

I have a list of them in "date related" order. As we are studying, I will refer to Henty's list and pick a title out for kids to listen to. Almost 99% of time it is on audio and done by Jim Weiss. Cat of Bubastes was great with studying Egypt. Others are slipping my mind right now....go figure... :rolleyes:

Fabulous.

Amy

[Spy Car]

In Henty's case blacks not only speak in thick dialect, but they are routinely called niggers and savages, and white characters comment on how stupid they are as a race.

 

His purpose is to make Imperial ambitions and the subjugation (and even enslavement) of other peoples by whites seem honorable and even noble. Wendy had it right when calling the appeal to young people (especially young men) as a sort of seduction. Henty sucks boys in by having adventure, action, and main characters that show some pluck and heroism as they cme of age. The problem is the stew is heavily flavored with race supremacy.

 

Bill

[PachiSusan]

 

I doubt Bill is suggesting people should gloss over these things. I think it's a lot about how we present those things. The Henty books are written in a particular tone that draws the reader in. The prejudices aren't explanations of how people felt at the time. They are presented in such a way as to state fact that some groups are superior to others. I can imagine having my kid read that and telling him this is how many people felt at the time, etc. One or two of these books aren't probably a big deal. But would you really want your kid to read several with this attitude in them? Having that sentiment repeated over and over and over might instill the wrong message.

 

I certainly do not gloss over history stuff. But after reading one of the Henty books there is no way I'll have my kid spend lots of time on those books.

 

 

I don't think my post was saying that he does anything at all - glossing over or otherwise? I'll go back and read it. I think we agree on this topic. :)

 

Also, I never expressed any interest in reading them or having my daughter read them as well. :)

[PachiSusan]

I think in jumping into this discussion, I've somehow given the impression that I'm interested in reading or sharing Henty's books. I am not. I was simply saying I had never heard of him and it's funny that I hadn't until now because it seems he's a pretty hot topic in these here parts. That's all.

 

I was then musing about how much/how little would / should we share / teach with our kids. It actually had nothing to do with wanting to have justification to read him.

 

Go on with your discussion. I'll just read now. LOL