Hard hearted daughter...HELP

[redsnapper]

I am so frustrated and lost. I don't know what to do.

 

I mean most of us who choose homeschool desire at least in part for our kids to grow closer to each other and build life long friendships with each other right?

 

My dd11 is my biggest struggle right now. I know pre-puberty hormones are playing a part, but I've seen this since age 4. She can be sweet, thoughtful, caring, generous, wise and insightful. Basically a wonderful older sister. However, (HOWEVER), she has always been arrogant, demanded to be treated as a mature older person, fought for her independence, has no grace for others, is a huge hypocrate with her siblings, is rude, and critical about everything. She's very observant and many things she catches in her siblings aren't wrong, but she is so critical toward them. Plus she's small, but strong and will sneak in a hard poke or shove "on accident" as she walks past them. Even at four years old she purposefully pushed her brother off the couch just so she could "comfort" him. Sheesh.

 

I've talked myself blue to her about how she will have more of an impact on ds9 and dd4 than Daddy and I will. How her critical treatment of them will scar them (I know from similar treatment by an older sibling). How her treatment of them is very much like a bully. She rides them so hard, especially brother.

 

I don't know what to do anymore with her. The softer side is there, but it doesn't come out as often anymore. Sadly, I begin to feel like protecting her siblings by separating them. But I don't want to isolate her. I find myself wanting to send her to Grandma's house to live for a while without any siblings or parents to "bother her". I feel like I've lost her and she's only eleven.

 

I know this is big pouty session, and I'm supposed to be adult. But I'm wracked with fear, frustration, confusion, hopelessness, ... I have no idea what to do. It doesn't help that this is the child who can push Mom's buttons like no one else, and that we have some similarities. I was never cold hearted like she can be and I don't know what to do. My husband either. We've both tried talking to her.

 

Should I take her to counseling?

 

Is there a book or movie you know of that portrays how a sibling can affect the entire family by her attitude like this? Something that might bring home the consequences of what she is doing?

[Starr]

If you go the counseling route you might want to consider family counseling. She's part of the family and how you all interact is part of the solution. :grouphug:

[oldskool]

I have no great advice but can relate very well. It is horrible when one child upsets the entire family with a bad attitude. We have had many years of this and right now I also am at my wits end for many days of the week. We are counting down the time until dd goes to college. I know it sounds horrible, but I feel so bad that all of our energy in the family seems to focus on this one child.

:grouphug:

[amsunshine]

I think family counseling may be a wonderful idea! Our younger dd sounds like your eldest -- we haven't yet been to counseling but are strongly considering it due to the fact that her strong personality has a huge impact on all of us. Hugs to you!

[Katie Jean]

I don't know if I have anything to offer...I know we all face worrisome times with our children. This could be just a phase or something that will pass.

 

My first reaction when I think of this happening in my home is number one, is she happy? What could be making her feel so condescending or snooty towards her siblings? Does she resent them? (I'm no psychologist I'm just tossing ideas out there)

 

Sometimes my older son (13) seems extremely bossy and overly "fatherly" towards his younger siblings, and when he doesn't know I can hear him he will say things to them I find so bizarre. I questioned him one day and earnestly asked him what made him dislike his siblings? He confessed he felt they were spoiled and no one treated him as kindly as they were treated. Which was a silly deduction but it was real to him. He gets upset they get done with their work faster than him etc.

 

We talked things out and I explained age and stage to him and helped him feel less threatened by them and also less prone to be condescending towards them. It hasn't gone away overnight. I have to constantly remind him when that behavior rears its head-sort of a raise of the eyebrow like "ummmmm hey you know better!"

 

If the above didnt work for me I would take more drastic measures and literally explain that certain behavior wouldn't be tolerated in our home. Of it did then certain disciplines would have to be carried out. The golden rule, respecting one another, speaking kindly one to another are all important elements of our home being peaceful.

 

The other day, my ds13 and ds10 were arguing over Legos. It was so lame and petty I did not want to delve into it. I simply told them if try could not have the same respect for one another as they each have towards their friends that the Legos were going away. They shut up rather quickly after that.

 

Parenting is no joke! Don't beat yourself up and do remember that this too shall pass. I hope this helps and I hope others chime in too with some tips. :)

[lillybell]

I agree with the others about trying counselling but you may also want to consider checking for underlying disorders like Asperger's Syndrome. Can maybe bring this up with her doctor, just to be sure her behavior doesn't have a medical basis.

[redsnapper]

Just finished chatting and praying with dh over this. He suggested some of my frustration could be that I've taken too much on. That I'm worrying over so much over their character in so many areas that I'm overwhelmed. DH may have a point but I'll need to think on this a bit more.

[Anne in CA]

I would like to add that at least you are sensitive to the potential damage being done to younger siblings and that is HUGE. Many people just don't notice/ care. I have a distant relative who was allowed to run roughshod over his younger siblings who grew up to be a criminal. I believe he felt he was entitled to hurt other people since his parents never stopped him.

[Jean in Newcastle]

My 11 year old has had a hard year. One thing that has helped has been tomato staking her. What this means is keeping her with me so that I can lead by example and guide her development. Some of the time it means that she's shadowing me and is learning to do things alongside of me. And some of the time it means that I'm going along and helping her at those things she enjoys doing. I know this is difficult with more than one child but I've found this age to be esp. important as far as nurturing our relationship.

[Rosie_0801]

I think Jean's advice is perfect.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

Have you read Siblings Without Rivalry? It's a great book. Not sure if it would be helpful for this situation, but it may be worth reading to learn some of the skills for dealing with it all.

 

They would probably recommend making sure she has a private place she can go to to be alone, asking her to write out or draw her issues with her siblings rather than be rude about it, etc.

[Faithr]

My 11 yo came out of the womb a spitfire. She's got a temper and she likes to be in charge. Unfortunately, she is the youngest so everybody else was always ahead of her and, believe me, she took it personally! She's my baby though but she bosses everybody else around! I am actually planning on sending my 14 yo to school partly because of the negative interaction between these two. I think they need time apart. He needs to mature and become more independent and she needs some tomato staking from me (as Jean suggested).

 

It is tough! But try to find a way that appeals to your dd's sense of right and wrong. Her sense of honor. That impulse to hurt is often borne out of resentment and insecurity. If you can build up what she is good at, be firm at lovingly correcting where she fails and focus on bonding closely with her so she doesn't feel so insecure, that will, I believe, go a long, long way to helping. It doesn't happen over night. It is a long term project that will come to fruition when she matures probably in her late teens. You've got a ways to go yet, so it is good to be focusing on it now and plotting out a plan of attack.

[bolt.]

Ok... I really feel for your daughter's perspective here, because I lived a childhood all about wanting to be respected and treated like an adult. I understand from my mom's journey with me how crazy-making that is in a child who is clearly more immature than she thinks she is.

 

My advice is to stop focusing on your core message of, "You have the power to damage others, so restrain yourself. You have bad instincts that lead to harm." And radically change to the core message of, "You are powerful and wise, so set yourself free. See if you can make others smarter, stronger and more efficient for your good in this home and family. Lets study human psychology to give you the edge you need to use your influence in a mature and masterful way."

 

Flattery is auch stronger tool to modify behavior -- stronger than fear and control put together!

[Alte Veste Academy]

I personally think most people who seem hard-hearted are actually extremely sensitive and simply protect themselves from hurt by building virtually impenetrable, protective walls around their own delicate hearts. I know I recommend this book all the time here, but given the stark contrast between your DD's attributes and faults, I think it might be a helpful read. Stong-Willed Child or Dreamer? http://www.amazon.com/Strong-Willed-Child-Dreamer-Dana-Spears/dp/0785277005/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1361292922&sr=8-1&keywords=strong+willed+child+or+dreamer

 

Also, as a person who saw my sister crumble when she was sent to therapy for her attitude problem when I knew darn well that the problem was really one of total family dynamics, I beg of you to not send her alone, as if she is the problem. If you think she has a wall up now... It is, no doubt, a problem with interrelationships within the whole family. Your DD has a perspective here too. I'm guessing a perfectly valid one--to her anyway--that is misunderstood by others. I am not at all suggesting that you or others are to blame, just that she is not solely to blame either.

[TarynB]

I personally think most people who seem hard-hearted are actually extremely sensitive and simply protect themselves from hurt by building virtually impenetrable, protective walls around their own delicate hearts.

 

I beg of you to not send her alone, as if she is the problem. If you think she has a wall up now... It is, no doubt, a problem with interrelationships within the whole family. Your DD has a perspective here too. I'm guessing a perfectly valid one--to her anyway--that is misunderstood by others. I am not at all suggesting that you or others are to blame, just that she is not solely to blame either.

 

 

This. Been there, done that. I've learned the hard way that sibling rivalry doesn't happen by itself. Sibling rivalry is born in a competitive environment created, usually unknowingly, by the parents. Your DD is hurting and crying out for help in the only way she knows how. She's not a bad kid; this is self-defense and self-preservation for her. I know from experience, kids in these situations are easily lost to their families as soon as they are old enough, unless the parents amend their ways and their viewpoint. Family therapy can be a good way to sort it out if you look at it as parent therapy first, then kid therapy second.

[butterflymommy]

I have a daughter like this... I've written about her here before. We had to lay down the law and be very authoritarian with her. Make it clear how you expect her to behave, and how you expect her to treat her siblings, and come down on her like an unrelenting ton of bricks if she steps out of line. Above all don't show any emotion (good or bad) to her when you are upset, and/or until you begin to see a more respectful change in her. I had to act like a calm but stern drill sergeant for a few months until I saw a change.

 

She could just use counseling to manipulate you further... so be careful with that. I would try being very strict with her for a few months before resorting to counseling. "Talking" won't do it, especially if is as clever and manipulative as you describe.

 

 

We never used any kind of physical punishments, we used an assortments of very long time outs in her room, total loss of all privileges (including all but necessary clothes-- she adores her closet), early bedtimes, and added chores as punishments & consequences. And I remained completely calm but emotionless during her rages.

 

If she is narcissistic and manipulative you're going to have to lay down the law in excruciating detail, because she's always going to see "loopholes" IYKWIM. So be very, very clear to her what you expect as acceptable behavior. Write it all out beforehand if necessary.

 

It took about 3 months to see a turnaround in my DD. She definitely still has issues but I bring out the drill sergeant and she usually backs down. Mushy attachment parent styles do NOT work with these kids, because they will use it as fuel to manipulate you and bully the family.

 

And, of course, when she's acting like a decent human being, be very loving to her and talk to her. I find I can catch my DD in "humane moments" where she is more receptive to what I have to say, as opposed to when she is raging or being manipulative/ button pushing.

[Faithr]

I have a daughter like this... I've written about her here before. We had to lay down the law and be very authoritarian with her. Make it clear how you expect her to behave, and how you expect her to treat her siblings, and come down on her like an unrelenting ton of bricks if she steps out of line. Above all don't show any emotion (good or bad) to her when you are upset, and/or until you begin to see a more respectful change in her. I had to act like a calm but stern drill sergeant for a few months until I saw a change.

 

She could just use counseling to manipulate you further... so be careful with that. I would try being very strict with her for a few months before resorting to counseling. "Talking" won't do it, especially if is as clever and manipulative as you describe.

 

 

We never used any kind of physical punishments, we used an assortments of very long time outs in her room, total loss of all privileges (including all but necessary clothes-- she adores her closet), early bedtimes, and added chores as punishments & consequences. And I remained completely calm but emotionless during her rages.

 

If she is narcissistic and manipulative you're going to have to lay down the law in excruciating detail, because she's always going to see "loopholes" IYKWIM. So be very, very clear to her what you expect as acceptable behavior. Write it all out beforehand if necessary.

 

It took about 3 months to see a turnaround in my DD. She definitely still has issues but I bring out the drill sergeant and she usually backs down. Mushy attachment parent styles do NOT work with these kids, because they will use it as fuel to manipulate you and bully the family.

 

And, of course, when she's acting like a decent human being, be very loving to her and talk to her. I find I can catch my DD in "humane moments" where she is more receptive to what I have to say, as opposed to when she is raging or being manipulative/ button pushing.

 

Attachment style parenting is not mushy. It does not let the child manipulate. Please read Hold on to Your Kids to get a better understanding of what attachment parenting actually means.

[CupOCoffee]

I have a daughter like this... I've written about her here before. We had to lay down the law and be very authoritarian with her. Make it clear how you expect her to behave, and how you expect her to treat her siblings, and come down on her like an unrelenting ton of bricks if she steps out of line. Above all don't show any emotion (good or bad) to her when you are upset, and/or until you begin to see a more respectful change in her. I had to act like a calm but stern drill sergeant for a few months until I saw a change.

 

She could just use counseling to manipulate you further... so be careful with that. I would try being very strict with her for a few months before resorting to counseling. "Talking" won't do it, especially if is as clever and manipulative as you describe.

 

 

We never used any kind of physical punishments, we used an assortments of very long time outs in her room, total loss of all privileges (including all but necessary clothes-- she adores her closet), early bedtimes, and added chores as punishments & consequences. And I remained completely calm but emotionless during her rages.

 

If she is narcissistic and manipulative you're going to have to lay down the law in excruciating detail, because she's always going to see "loopholes" IYKWIM. So be very, very clear to her what you expect as acceptable behavior. Write it all out beforehand if necessary.

 

It took about 3 months to see a turnaround in my DD. She definitely still has issues but I bring out the drill sergeant and she usually backs down. Mushy attachment parent styles do NOT work with these kids, because they will use it as fuel to manipulate you and bully the family.

 

And, of course, when she's acting like a decent human being, be very loving to her and talk to her. I find I can catch my DD in "humane moments" where she is more receptive to what I have to say, as opposed to when she is raging or being manipulative/ button pushing.

 

I am going to have to go this route with my 11 year old as well. So many will say that behavior like this is hormonal, and while I can accept that explanation if the behavior is newly coming out at 11, I cannot accept it when it's been ongoing for a few years now.

 

Am I partly to blame for allowing it to go on? Yes. It's obviously NOT a stage she's going to outgrow anytime soon, and I have to stop it now before I have a totally out of control teenager on my hands.

 

I am going to do a combination of tomato staking and laying down the law. I know I am in for a bumpy ride, but it must be done.

 

I am glad I am not the only one who is going to take this approach! To the OP, please take all this advice to your heart; think on it, pray on it if that's how you lean. No matter which methods we choose (and we may have to choose them all before we find one that works), we with daughters like this have a tough road to travel, but in the end I believe it will be worth it, and I am willing.

 

((hugs))

 

~coffee~

[redsquirrel]

I had a sister like this. There was always a fight in my house and she was always a part of it. It got worse as she got older. It turns out she has some mental health problems. I haven't seen or spoken to her for years. I know my mom deeply regrets not taking it seriously and getting her help, or getting the family help, when she was younger. By the time it became undeniable that there was a problem, she was too old to force into therapy.

 

I know my mom is heart broken about my sister, but I am glad she removed herself from the family. I couldn't deal with her.

[5LittleMonkeys]

Before you do anything else go get the book previously recommended...Siblings Without Rivalry. Invaluable! It will give you some insight into how others in the family may be contributing to her behavior without even knowing it. That book was a complete eye opener for me. Much of my dd's disruptive behavior could be contributed to jealousy that I was unknowingly causing. This dd is still very "difficult", but the constant rivalry, bickering, criticism, and general unrest have dramatically decreased.

 

[AK_Mom4]

My 11 year old has had a hard year. One thing that has helped has been tomato staking her. What this means is keeping her with me so that I can lead by example and guide her development. Some of the time it means that she's shadowing me and is learning to do things alongside of me. And some of the time it means that I'm going along and helping her at those things she enjoys doing. I know this is difficult with more than one child but I've found this age to be esp. important as far as nurturing our relationship.

 

:iagree:

 

I love Jean's advice here! Often when they are at their nastiness, we feel like pushing them away when what we really need to do is bring them in closer. This isn't a "mean" thing to do at all, but a chance to give immediate feedback on her behavior and model the right response. Good luck!

[FriedClams]

I agree with the tomato staking! It's a relationship... Mentoring... Modeling... You won't need the ton of bricks (which I agree can be very much needed), because you catch an attitude and correct that before it becomes a brawl. There no dealing with a sibling fight - because you were there to guide her to make sure it never starts. Its exhausting - by worth it. And its not punitive - it can be great. Enjoy having her by your side. Do things together - be a team.