At what age/grade should one start looking

[Parrothead]

At where one wants to go to college?

[regentrude]

early high school. But for many students that may be too early. Definitely start looking if the student has already a good idea of her major, because, for us, the quality of the academic program in the major is the most important factor in the decision and trumps secondary consideration like big/small school/town, public/private, location. For an undecided student, I'd start putting my feelers out Freshman year and explore her ideas about those other criteria.

[Parrothead]

Thanks. I just asked her and say said she has no idea. One more thing to work on.

[JFSinIL]

Before high school - at least in terms of aiming high. Assume that the kid will be able to win a merit scholarship and plan accordingly - four years math, four years science (bio/chem/physics plus an AP bio or chem) four years foreign language and as many AP classes as possible. Now - not all kids will end up able or wanting to go right into a four-year school. But - if you wait until the kid is a sophomore or junior it is too late to go back and tackle the hard, challenging classes needed to get into a four-year school or get into one AND get merit aid.

 

Deciding what kind of school/major can wait. If the kid decides to go into medicine, engineering, sciences - unless a two-year certificate is all they need for their career path, a four-year school is required AND most do NOT want to see core classes taken at the local cc. So the kid will need to get into a four-year school from the start.

 

Other careers/degrees, starting at the (cheaper!!!) local cc is fine.

 

I have one kid a Chem. major at a LAC. Another is a freshman at the local cc. My last is a high school sophomore - taking college-track, AP and Honors. Whether or not she can pull off the test scores and GPA to get merit aid is uncertain...but since she already knows she is NOT a math/science major (taking bio and chem so far has taught her that!) the local cc remains a viable option, followed by transferring to a four-year.

 

Just aim for the four-year, merit scholarship route. Then the kid can decide later what to do - at least she/he will have the background to MAKE a decision, not have it forced on them (as in - you didn't meet the requirements to go to State U or the local LAC so you HAVE to go community college. )

Does this make sense?

 

Oh - and my college Jr the Chem major? He applied to schools thinking he would major in History. Then when freshman year started he began as a Biology major. Halfway through his sophomore year he decided he was a Chemistry major. That is pretty different from where he started! Many kids do change their minds even after they start college - it is expected. I think the most you can expect from early high school is a general idea of whether or not the kid can realistically aim to be a doctor or scientist or football star or dancer etc. Prepare for everything!

[elegantlion]

We started looking last year. The likelihood is that he'll attend instate. *I* started looking at schools that offered what he's interested in studying, not necessarily a major. He knows he wants to study some languages, do a study abroad in Japan, and has tentative interests in about 5 areas. That gives us one school that would seem to be a good fit. State school with lots of languages, but it would require room and board. The local university doesn't have the programs he wants, but he could live at home.

 

So he sees the difference in price, which can be motivating for grades etc. We've not discounted any school yet, but he probably won't be looking at super competitive schools.

 

I've also looked at some schools based upon ds's personality. I *think* he would disappear in a huge school, he could surprise me, but he'd do better in smaller classes. I spent some time looking at different schools online, checking admission requirements, checking reviews online.

 

Next year I hope to hand off some of that research, so we can have a continued dialogue. It's hard to believe in 3 years he'll already have applications in and probably acceptances too. *pauses to hyperventilate*

[Crimson Wife]

In general terms (e.g. STEM vs. liberal arts, selective vs. open access, etc.), by 7th grade. For specific colleges, around 10th grade. A student's best shot at getting in is applying Early Decision, and those applications look most at 11th grade.

[Parrothead]

It is the checking admission requirements that are starting to get to me. Dd has no idea where she wants to go so how do I start checking admission requirements. Someone suggested the checking be done ASAP.

 

But ASAP might not be until a coup,e more years have passed. So that is why I'm already aiming high. At one point she did say she wanted to go to an ivy, but that was after watching about one one TV.

[Parrothead]

In general terms (e.g. STEM vs. liberal arts, selective vs. open access, etc.), by 7th grade. For specific colleges, around 10th grade. A student's best shot at getting in is applying Early Decision, and those applications look most at 11th grade.

And this advice is what tells me we have already messed up.

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

We are already discussing it in 7th grade, it makes a difference on which direction we take with courses throughout high school.

 

I don't expect him to know exactly what he wants to do or where he wants to go. But we need a direction.

[Crimson Wife]

Get yourself a copy of What High Schools Don't Tell You and look at their suggested plan of study. If she's in 8th grade now, you've still got time to make sure her high school coursework meets typical admissions requirements. There are some things that middle schoolers can do to start building their resumes (talent searches, contests like MathCounts, etc.) but it's definitely not too late at your stage of the game.

[Shelly in VA]

And this advice is what tells me we have already messed up.

 

 

Don't panic! You have plenty of time. My oldest will be a college freshman in the fall. She is going into nursing, and she has been accepted at all 5 universities she applied to, several of which are highly competitive (UVA and JMU are the ones I'm thinking of specifically). She has also been accepted into the honors program at each of the universities that has one. We did not start thinking about colleges until late in her sophomore year. That isn't to say that I wasn't aware from middle school on that I needed to keep graduation requirements in mind, and to structure her academics with the ultimate goal of college in mind. But looking at specific schools, test prep, etc. -- none of that happened until late in her sophomore year, and most of it started in her junior year. You haven't messed up! She did very well on the PSAT, SAT, ACT, etc., and she has done well in her interviews and things on campuses. We also did not make any "official" campus visits until her junior year.

 

My next child, a sophomore this year, has taken a little bit more active role this year in school searching, but only because of all the discussions going on here with my oldest. Really, though, we won't do anything differently for him. No need to put that pressure on him now; plenty of time for that later. Haha.

 

Relax, and know that you haven't messed up anything or missed out on any opportunities at this point!

[Karen in CO]

College counselor is a whole 'nuther hat that you'll have to wear. It was surprisingly scary and confusing for me. I wasn't prepared. Even if she doesn't start now, you can start understanding this other role you'll have. My ds is quite passive which made it pretty hard because I had no experience getting anyone but myself into college and he had no idea of what he wanted to do until MAY of his senior year when he found exactly what he wanted without me.

 

I would suggest that you start looking at a variety of requirements and looking at it as an additional responsibility from parent and teacher so that as she satrts to think about what she wants, you can help to guide.

[Shelly in VA]

It is the checking admission requirements that are starting to get to me. Dd has no idea where she wants to go so how do I start checking admission requirements. Someone suggested the checking be done ASAP.

 

There isn't a whole lot of variation in the requirements, though. Even checking high school graduation requirements in your state can help guide you in this area. A number of states have different requirements for different diplomas, so that the college bound diploma is the most rigorous. If you are in doubt, aim for 4 years of the cores (math, language arts, science, history/geography), 3 years of foreign language, etc. Know, too, that if you get pressed for time, one semester of a CC course may count as a year of a high school course. I mention that to point out that if you end up "short" in something specific that a college requires, your student will have time to fulfill the requirement, even as late as their senior year. Hope that makes sense!

[briansmama]

The college advisors for the UC system (CA) suggest looking when the child is in middle school.

[Parrothead]

Get yourself a copy of What High Schools Don't Tell You and look at their suggested plan of study. If she's in 8th grade now, you've still got time to make sure her high school coursework meets typical admissions requirements. There are some things that middle schoolers can do to start building their resumes (talent searches, contests like MathCounts, etc.) but it's definitely not too late at your stage of the game.

Ordered the book. Thanks

[snowbeltmom]

Read that book CW mentioned, and think about developing your child's talents and hook if you want to do Ivy as an undergrad.

Someone recommended that book for me to read a couple of years ago. :scared: May I suggest you have a large glass of wine and some dark chocolate by your side if you read that book.

[Parrothead]

Nah, w/8th grade Algebra you're fine. Just move along academically.

 

The hard part for a selective school is the state or world class acheivement. Every kid in my area who has gone to an Ivy recently has a World Championship in something like Odyssey of the Mind or they've gone to Nationals in their sport or been number one in the state with their music, except for one gal who did an IB program and must have knocked the socks off of MIT's admissions committee. Read that book CW mentioned, and think about developing your child's talents and hook if you want to do Ivy as an undergrad. It's not on my radar; I know enough people that did state U for engineering undergrad and then ivy caliber grad that it's not a must for me.

I don't think she will actually want to go. She used to watch Suite Life of Zac and Cody. Cody always wanted to go to Harvard. We were in Boston when she was 9 or 10 and went to one of the on-campus museums at Harvard. She loved it and said that was where she wanted to go to college. My eyes about bugged out because I could only see dollar signs. But there is always the possibility so even though she has always said she wants to teach little kids to dance I've kept the possibility in the back of my mine. Then something like the Newtown massacre happens and she tells me she is going to homeschool college.

 

And she is lazy about academics. She comes by it naturally as both dh and I were the same way.

 

One other aspect is she is young. She will still be 13 when starting 9th grade. Since she is slightly above average (bright, but not off the scale genius) being so young has never been a problem. I think the laziness and slight lack of maturity play off one another.

 

What I want more than anything is to be able to keep the doors open for her as long as possible. She won't get into MIT or Harvard, but maybe Boston College. (We both love Boston) Maybe I should just go about it as if she were planning on going to Boston College.

[Parrothead]

Someone recommended that book for me to read a couple of years ago. :scared: May I suggest you have a large glass of wine and some dark chocolate by your side if you read that book.

 

So noted. :gnorsi:

 

 

 

:smilielol5:

[Crimson Wife]

 

Someone recommended that book for me to read a couple of years ago. :scared: May I suggest you have a large glass of wine and some dark chocolate by your side if you read that book.

 

It is scary but so is a single-digit acceptance rate at the top schools.

[redsquirrel]

If she says she wants (or wanted) to go to an Ivy because she saw it on TV, then you might consider getting the book 'Colleges that change lives' and/or "Looking beyond the Ivy League" from the library. They are by the same author. I found them to be great resources.

[Nscribe]

We have done a couple of day trips or walk about visits in conjunction with vacations over the past few years. Dd is in 9th now and those trips have shown her to take a look at bulletin boards, note how students seem to interact in student unions/cafes, and see how towns (cities) and colleges fit together. It helped to put a picture with the idea of college and I think it peaked motivation to do well to meet standards to have choices.

 

This year we have poked around on websites together. This has helped generate some general questions on her part. I was actually planning to sit down this summer with her and let her take a look at the college confidential website. That site can be a bit intense, but it does have some subforums and such that give some discussion she might benefit from considering before it all gets real in a couple of years.

 

Just these types of things have helped her develop a sense of what she wants. I differ from some in that I am not a huge fan of laser focus early in high school, something about 14 year olds charting their entire life just doesn't feel right to me. We make sure she is taking a solid course progression that will not rule out STEM. We are planning to travel a bit in her Junior year and will do some more formal college visits then and she has a list that she keeps in a journal. It changes over time and that is fine.

 

Even if her test scores wind up stellar, I don't want her to look at a school for what will look best. I want her to select a place with a decent reputation that will live well for 4 years and help her build to where she wants to go for post grad work. That we know, she will likely be doing more than a Bachelors. She loves the performing arts, but she is not likely to want to major exclusively in one. Just from the poking about we have done, she has decided an MFA is not the path she wants to go because she wants a broader experience.

[regentrude]

In general terms (e.g. STEM vs. liberal arts, selective vs. open access, etc.), by 7th grade. For specific colleges, around 10th grade. A student's best shot at getting in is applying Early Decision, and those applications look most at 11th grade.

 

I do not think this is necessary, because one could just aim to fulfill the admission requirements of the most selective schools and keep all doors open - this would NOT require the OP to already know which direction her student is taking in 7th grade. I also do not find it realistic, since kids change their mind, and I do not believe they should be locked into a narrow field as early as high school.

I take the most rigorous requirements (4x5) and plan for a high school education that prepares the student for all majors - humanity OR STEM - at any school. You can always dial back down, or shift focus, or add targeted electives, when they are a bit older..

[Crimson Wife]

 

I do not think this is necessary, because one could just aim to fulfill the admission requirements of the most selective schools and keep all doors open - this would NOT require the OP to already know which direction her student is taking in 7th grade. I also do not find it realistic, since kids change their mind, and I do not believe they should be locked into a narrow field as early as high school.

 

I take the most rigorous requirements (4x5) and plan for a high school education that prepares the student for all majors - humanity OR STEM - at any school. You can always dial back down, or shift focus, or add targeted electives, when they are a bit older..

 

If a student wants to study STEM at a selective college, then he/she really should be getting on that path by 7th grade. Yes, one CAN double-up on math, taking geometry concurrently with algebra 1 or algebra 2 if one did not take algebra 1 in 7th. But that means fewer slots for electives. Additionally, participating in talent searches in 7th grade opens up opportunities for summer and/or distance learning that look really good on an application. MIT's advice page for homeschooled applicants specifically mentions CTY and Duke TIP.

[Matryoshka]

I wonder this too. I've tried to make sure my kids are on a course that doesn't close any doors, but I can't imagine being as specific as picking certain schools/majors at this point (I've got two freshmen). They're both now going to a highly (I might even say overly) competitive ps high school, taking mostly honors classes. The odd thing is, the guidance counselors there seem to actively discourage the kids thinking about this stuff till junior year. :confused1: Maybe they just have too many Tiger Moms to deal with, and they figure the kids are overly focused on this, so they go the other way??

 

I also wonder about all this college visiting - wow, what an expense (for non-local choices), and where do people find the time? My kids have spent quite a bit of time on the campuses of Harvard, MIT and Boston University, but I doubt any of those are realistic choices for actual attendance someday... it has already given us something to talk about as to where schools choose to spend their money, though. BU seems to spend a ton of money making their campus pretty - or even downright luxurious. MIT and Harvard, on the other hand, have classrooms that are downright shabby (I'm guessing MIT is spending on some way cool equipment somewhere that is not accessible to non-students) - but it's not on fancy desks, carpeting or smartboards...

[regentrude]

If a student wants to study STEM at a selective college, then he/she really should be getting on that path by 7th grade. Yes, one CAN double-up on math, taking geometry concurrently with algebra 1 or algebra 2 if one did not take algebra 1 in 7th. But that means fewer slots for electives. Additionally, participating in talent searches in 7th grade opens up opportunities for summer and/or distance learning that look really good on an application. MIT's advice page for homeschooled applicants specifically mentions CTY and Duke TIP.

 

See, this is one aspect where DH and I have a philosophical disagreement with the whole "grooming for selective college" procedure. I want my kids to consider the high school years as a portion of life with a value of its own - not only as a waiting and preparation period for college. If my kid were interested in attending any summer programs, sure, absolutely (except that they are prohibitively expensive; our entire family can travel to Europe for the amount those programs cost) - but just to groom themselves to look better on the college application? No. They should spend their summers doing things they want to do, just because they want them to do, not with the continuous sideways glance to their resumes. My DD did the talent search and qualified for Duke Tip, but she rather spends her summers traveling overseas and backpacking out West than attending the programs.

If the getting into a "top" school requires putting all other interests on halt, forgoing family trips in order to attend those camps and schools, thinking for every activity how it will look to admissions - then that it a price we are not willing to pay, for the 7% chance of getting into a certain school. It is not worth aligning our family's entire life to this one elusive goal.

What happens if a student sacrificed his childhood and adolescence to this and does not get in? (Does not have to be because of qualifications - they might just not need a white, horseback riding, choir singing student from the Midwest, but rather a black, oboe playing soccer player from Alabama to get their well rounded student body.)

 

I'd rather my kids live and explore a variety of interests and not get into Harvard or MIT and attend another good school instead.

I understand that you see things differently, but my experience as a physicist does not convince me that an Ivy school is the only place where one can get a good education.

[Farrar]

From everything I've read, getting into these top of the top selective schools like the Ivies or MIT or the top liberal arts schools like Wesleyan and Amherst is as much chance as qualifications. You could do everything right from 7th grade on and still not get in. It's not achievement you have much control over on some level. I'm not saying kids shouldn't aim for it, but rather that any parent thinking about this should consider that they could spend years pushing a child into every competition, summer program, rigorous program and so forth... and still not make that goal. And just to think about the options there. And to get that book 40 Colleges that Change Lives. :)

[snowbeltmom]

I want my kids to consider the high school years as a portion of life with a value of its own - not only as a waiting and preparation period for college. If my kid were interested in attending any summer programs, sure, absolutely (except that they are prohibitively expensive; our entire family can travel to Europe for the amount those programs cost) - but just to groom themselves to look better on the college application?

 

 

:iagree:

I read the book referenced right before my oldest was to begin 9th grade. My husband and I sat down with my son and discussed the contents of that book and what, according to this book, he needed to do in order to have a chance to gain admittance to one of the "lottery" schools.

 

His reaction mirrored what Regentrude has stated in her post. He decided that was going to do the things that interested him, and he was not going to do something just to impress an admissions officer.

 

My son's approach may prohibit him from gaining admissions to the highly selective schools, but he is fine with that. I have read too many posts on College Confidential from bitter high school students who felt they sacrificed their high school years building their resumes only to be rejected by the "lottery" colleges.

 

These high school years are the last years of childhood. I want my kids to have time to be a kid.

[Crimson Wife]

A student who builds a strong resume and doesn't get into an elite college will be in a very solid position to get a merit scholarship to a lower-tier school or into the honors program at a state school. But if he/she opts out of the whole "rat race", then there's NO shot at an elite school (assuming that he/she is in the normal application pool). College is ridiculously expensive these days- and 50% of all recent college graduates are unemployed. "Follow your passion" is nice and all, but college is first and foremost an investment in the student's future and the ROI has to be taken into consideration.

[regentrude]

A student who builds a strong resume and doesn't get into an elite college will be in a very solid position to get a merit scholarship to a lower-tier school or into the honors program at a state school. But if he/she opts out of the whole "rat race", then there's NO shot at an elite school (assuming that he/she is in the normal application pool). College is ridiculously expensive these days- and 50% of all recent college graduates are unemployed. "Follow your passion" is nice and all, but college is first and foremost an investment in the student's future and the ROI has to be taken into consideration.

 

 

The STEM student (who, you insist, needs to start preparing in 7th grade) does not have a 50% unemployment rate.

Nor does following one's passion throughout the high school years means that one has to study a major that results in a degree which does not lead to employment.

I agree about ROI- but I disagree that the only way into a solid, good school with merit aid is to jump through all those hoops. For many students, a solid high school education and good test scores are sufficient.

[Chrysalis Academy]

I did absolutely everything wrong in high school (parochial school - bad advising - no APs - illness - coasting (good grades but zero effort)), went to Cal State LA as an undergrad, got involved in research and had a fantastic last 3 years there, and got into MIT for grad school. There are other paths. Just sayin'.

[snowbeltmom]

The STEM student (who, you insist, needs to start preparing in 7th grade) does not have a 50% unemployment rate.

 

Again, I agree.

I graduated debt-free with an electrical engineering degree from a small public university that very few have ever heard of. I was hired right out of undergrad at a fortune 500 company that also hired 30 other engineers that started work on the same day as me. Many of them had graduated from the big-named schools with a boat-load of debt. We all started at the same salary level and had the same opportunities for advancement.

[Parrothead]

 

I do not think this is necessary, because one could just aim to fulfill the admission requirements of the most selective schools and keep all doors open - this would NOT require the OP to already know which direction her student is taking in 7th grade. I also do not find it realistic, since kids change their mind, and I do not believe they should be locked into a narrow field as early as high school.

I take the most rigorous requirements (4x5) and plan for a high school education that prepares the student for all majors - humanity OR STEM - at any school. You can always dial back down, or shift focus, or add targeted electives, when they are a bit older..

 

Thank you.

[brownie]

The ivy leagues ARE looking for you to follow a passion. What they're not looking for is a student who dabbles in this club, them dabbles in that instrument, visits grandma over the summer, and seems to have no energy for anything in particular. I think young kids may need some subtle guidance in this direction from their parents or other adults. They don't always even recognize where their talents lie, or which activities or relationships could lead to more lucrative, exciting opportunities.

[brownie]

sorry - double post?!

[Farrar]

A student who builds a strong resume and doesn't get into an elite college will be in a very solid position to get a merit scholarship to a lower-tier school or into the honors program at a state school. But if he/she opts out of the whole "rat race", then there's NO shot at an elite school (assuming that he/she is in the normal application pool). College is ridiculously expensive these days- and 50% of all recent college graduates are unemployed. "Follow your passion" is nice and all, but college is first and foremost an investment in the student's future and the ROI has to be taken into consideration.

 

 

There's a balance between "follow your bliss" and run in the "rat race" until you drop. My hope for my own kids one day is that we can look for ways to do things to make their bliss marketable to colleges. So the idea would be not to do the exact same things as everyone else, but rather to do the things you want to do and find ways to make those things seem worthwhile. And, of course, to consider doing the things that are worthwhile as well. Plus to also have a good basic groundwork of solid high school and decent test scores.

 

The fact that college is so expensive, competitive and also no longer any guarantee of job success is all the more reason IMO to focus on bigger life goals and finding different paths to get there - paths where college is most likely part of the picture, but where it's not the destination like it was made out to me when I was in school. If all a student has done is prepare for an elite college without any other goal in mind, then I think that's too much of a gamble.

[elegantlion]

Chucki, while you're ordering, get this book, How to Be a High School Superstar. I don't agree with all of it and I think the title is overly dramatic, but it shows how following a passion can help a teen stand out in the sea of competitive students.

 

I've gained some peace about our plan after reading that book. My goal is to help ds become the best student/person he can. If he wanted to do more AP classes, more competitions we'd find a way. He's just not bent that way and he's not the type to be pushed. He has some unique interests and he very enthused about a few things. At the end of our journey, he'll have a true representation of who he is and we'll find the school based upon that. At least that is my goal/plan/hope/dream, spurred on by wine and chocolate and the occasional panic attack.

[Crimson Wife]

I did absolutely everything wrong in high school (parochial school - bad advising - no APs - illness - coasting (good grades but zero effort)), went to Cal State LA as an undergrad, got involved in research and had a fantastic last 3 years there, and got into MIT for grad school. There are other paths. Just sayin'.

 

 

College admissions today are WAAAAY more competitive than they were 15 or 20 years ago. The Cal States have been limiting enrollment because of budget cuts and my local one in 2011 only accepted 1 in 3 applicants.

[Parrothead]

Chucki, while you're ordering, get this book, How to Be a High School Superstar. I don't agree with all of it and I think the title is overly dramatic, but it shows how following a passion can help a teen stand out in the sea of competitive students.

 

I've gained some peace about our plan after reading that book. My goal is to help ds become the best student/person he can. If he wanted to do more AP classes, more competitions we'd find a way. He's just not bent that way and he's not the type to be pushed. He has some unique interests and he very enthused about a few things. At the end of our journey, he'll have a true representation of who he is and we'll find the school based upon that. At least that is my goal/plan/hope/dream, spurred on by wine and chocolate and the occasional panic attack.

Thanks. I ordered the book.

 

 

___

 

Keep in mine the wanting to go to Harvard thing was when she wast 10. I honestly think dd knows the names of 3 schools, UMO, Harvard and Yale.

[Nscribe]

 

College admissions today are WAAAAY more competitive than they were 15 or 20 years ago. The Cal States have been limiting enrollment because of budget cuts and my local one in 2011 only accepted 1 in 3 applicants.

 

The world is way more competitive today than 15/20 years ago. My life has not been all that long (unless you ask a teenager), but I have lived through decades of incredible change and witnessed in areas of explosive growth. I struggle to imagine what the world will look like when Dd is my age with thoughts of what to do for her kids if the rate of change stays constant. The thing is, I have lived long enough to see that change/progress is not at a steady constant rate and it is only growing.

 

That said, I have to ask questions like "Will Dd be able to relate to the investor in India/China/Singapore or some other place?" or "Am I helping her to learn to learn in a manner that will give her the skills to embrace change and thrive in it?" or "Will she send me a digital image of her trip into orbit like the postcards we receive now from friends/families on a cruise vacation?" or "Am I helping her to learn to understand cultures and be able to communicate with a vast variety of people?"...Good grief, there are questions I should be asking I need a lot more coffee to even begin to conceive. In light of these, which summer camp she goes to in order to add a notch to her Ivy application really seem small. Just saying....

[Matryoshka]

Chucki, while you're ordering, get this book, How to Be a High School Superstar. I don't agree with all of it and I think the title is overly dramatic, but it shows how following a passion can help a teen stand out in the sea of competitive students.

 

I'm reading this book right now. Then I'm going to try to get my kids to read it. It's really interesting to read as someone who's homeschooled all along (till this year) - it reads like a recipe of how to unschool (in the follow-your-passions way, not the goof off till inspiration strikes you or not way) while still going to school and taking a rigorous load. He says, yeah, you've got to take APs and get good grades and good SAT scores - but not the most APs, the best grades, or perfect SAT scores, if you also have something that you're genuinely interested in that you've developed enough to have actually done something with. He advocates having enough down time to explore to find out what that might be, and then follow it up.

[Nscribe]

A student who builds a strong resume and doesn't get into an elite college will be in a very solid position to get a merit scholarship to a lower-tier school or into the honors program at a state school. But if he/she opts out of the whole "rat race", then there's NO shot at an elite school (assuming that he/she is in the normal application pool). College is ridiculously expensive these days- and 50% of all recent college graduates are unemployed. "Follow your passion" is nice and all, but college is first and foremost an investment in the student's future and the ROI has to be taken into consideration.

 

Everytime I see the term "rat race" I think, the problem is everyone participating is a rat. Just a side thought...

[Chrysalis Academy]

College admissions today are WAAAAY more competitive than they were 15 or 20 years ago. The Cal States have been limiting enrollment because of budget cuts and my local one in 2011 only accepted 1 in 3 applicants.

 

 

True. Things have changed. I take two lessons from my own experience, which may or may not still be accurate today, much less in 7-11 years into the future when my girls are ready for college.

 

The first is that high test scores matter - in my own case PSAT and SAT - and they can open doors to not only to college but to merit scholarships for college, even if you haven't done all the "extras" in high school. (I had a good GPA too, but no impressive extracurriculars and no APs). I do plan to prepare my kids to excel at these tests, because for better or worse, they do matter.

 

The second is that even a mediocre/non A-list college can be a path to an amazing grad school, if you do amazing things while you are in college. Going to a state school doesn't doom you to unemployment and an unhappy life. Top science grad school are competing for students - they fly students in to interview, and the same students are interviewing at multiple schools, and choosing the best fit, And going to grad school on stipends, for free. And you can get there from a state school - you don't have to get into Harvard or Stanford to go to MIT for grad school.

 

I guess my point is that a kid's whole future success and happiness doesn't hinge on getting into a prestigious college as an undergrad. There are other ways to get where you want to go, and when you are a little older and more mature, you might have a better sense of where it is you want to go, and do a better job of carving out a path for yourself to get there.

 

Or, to put it another way, a kid's whole hope for future happiness doesn't depend on what her mom did or didn't do when she was in 7th grade. :tongue_smilie:

[Crimson Wife]

The second is that even a mediocre/non A-list college can be a path to an amazing grad school, if you do amazing things while you are in college. Going to a state school doesn't doom you to unemployment and an unhappy life.

 

True, but the odds tend to be in favor of the elite college grads. My youngest brother and DH's younger brother are about the same age (28 and 26). My brother went to a top 30 college. He was making close to 6 figures at age 25 as a network administrator when he decided to go to law school. He's now in his 3rd year and has a standing offer to come back to his pre-law school employer as a joint in-house counsel and IT manager at a new branch office the firm is planning to open up. I don't know the specifics of the pay but it's presumably lucrative.

 

DH's brother got accepted to a top 30 college (Notre Dame) but allowed FIL to scare him out of attending (something FIL tried to do to DH when he got accepted to Stanford but DH defied FIL and went anyways on the Army's dime). After BIL graduated from the no-name local state college, the only job he could find was working as a Target cashier. After about a year and a half he finally found a better job, but it was a contract one and he just last Friday lost out on a permanent position. So he's going to be unemployed again soon.

 

Is there a chance that BIL would still have had such career difficulty in this economy even had he attended Notre Dame? Sure. But of the recent college grads I know, the ones who attended elite schools are by and large doing significantly better than average. When companies are getting flooded with resumes for each opening, it definitely helps to have a "brand name" school on yours.

[regentrude]

True, but the odds tend to be in favor of the elite college grads. My youngest brother and DH's younger brother are about the same age (28 and 26). My brother went to a top 30 college. He was making close to 6 figures at age 25 as a network administrator when he decided to go to law school...

DH's brother .. After BIL graduated from the no-name local state college, the only job he could find was working as a Target cashier. After about a year and a half he finally found a better job, but it was a contract one and he just last Friday lost out on a permanent position. So he's going to be unemployed again soon.

Is there a chance that BIL would still have had such career difficulty in this economy even had he attended Notre Dame? Sure. But of the recent college grads I know, the ones who attended elite schools are by and large doing significantly better than average. When companies are getting flooded with resumes for each opening, it definitely helps to have a "brand name" school on yours.

 

 

Anecdotal evidence. Our friends' Columbia University graduated daughter has had no permanent job since her graduation several years ago.

 

Furthermore, an important question here is: what was your BIL's major?

 

Simple numbers show that it is impossible to fill all job offers with graduates from Ivy schools.

 

At our public university, many students have firm offers months before they graduate. 82% of our graduates have firm jobs by graduation or go on to grad school. Average starting salary for our graduates is $59k.

[Nscribe]

 

True, but the odds tend to be in favor of the elite college grads.

...

When companies are getting flooded with resumes for each opening, it definitely helps to have a "brand name" school on yours.

 

Maybe it is the bubble we reside in, but we are surrounding by poster children for the elite college application candidate as suggested by the books cited in above posts. Just about every strip center has tutoring facilities (the best ones with waiting lists), the competition for the coveted spots in the recognized magnets, charters and privates is brutal and extracurricular offerings can't hire fast enough or squeeze more hours out of the day. The accomplishments kids sport on applications and resumes for tryouts, leadership positions and so forth are overwhelming. 8th graders and 9th graders with resumes is itself something that makes me feel the need to be pinched.)

 

I joked for a while that I should write I book titled "Weekdays at Starbucks with Tiger Moms: How To Be Tigger Amongst the Roar". Bouncy, Bouncy...fun, fun, fun! Don't be in the wrong spot when the hellicopters land, they show no mercy.

 

My reaction when I read some of the books mentioned was to think...this is what everyone is doing, where is the news?

 

The networking for those who attend the schools to which you refer is really what is at the heart of it all and it is effective. But...there is a change underway. The movers and makers are increasingly international and the doors to the corridors of the elite are less and less likely to be closed behind the last one to enter. The revised and updated versions of the admissions guides is going to have to include a recognition of globalization. They will also have to discuss budgeting and planning for the longer haul as undergraduate cache is declining rapidly.

 

Today's touted game plan is quickly becoming a cliche.

 

What will replace it?

[Trilliums]

8th-9th grade is where we started.

Older son started getting very interested in grade 9. We went over the application process, looked at recommended course of study in high school for a few schools, talked about AP classes, AP exams, PSAT/SAT/ACT, etc. The kids have been doing SAT question of the Day for a couple of years, but they still didn't know a lot of details for what it all meant. Actually, that was also the time when we started really talking about the differences between a community college/LAC/private U/public U.

 

After looking into college admissions a bit, DS did decide to double up on math in grade 9 (geometry and alg 2). He did a job shadow of a material science engineer in grade 9 through out local community college. He also decided it was time to start outsourcing more classes and we spent a lot of time researching options. He is unlikely to be a national award winner in any kind of competition (he really dislikes timed competitions) but he is working on sorting out a summer research project at our state U for this summer. He has high aspirations for a selective college, but he is still going about high school HIS way. He isn't joining activities just because they might look good on his application. While he may not get into his "dream school" I feel confident he will find a good fit.

 

Younger son is currently in grade 9 and while he is not as focused, he does apply himself academically and I also think he will have a great chance at a variety of selective schools. He has more diverse interests and while he may stick with a stem field, I could just as easily imagine him going into political science or even finance.

 

We have a few nephews/nieces living in Texas who all attended state schools and studied engineering. They wanted to stay close to home for college and careers and have all landed lucrative jobs. Not everyone wants to go out of state and end up with a job in a place they have never been to before. Still plenty of options.

[Parrothead]

Thanks everyone who posted. It has been interesting reading.

[JennyD]

Our little bubble sounds a lot like yours, Nscribe. DH and I are in academia, where multiple degrees from elite schools are commonplace and people have very high ambitions for their children to follow the same trajectory.

 

About six months ago I realized three things: First, if the name of the game is college admissions, then we (meaning my family) should probably not homeschool all the way through. Rather, we should send our kids to the very good private school where nearly everyone else we know sends their kids, and that has stellar college exmissions stats year after year. To be sure, it's a selective private school with lots of great kids and a super-highly-motivated parent community, but their bread and butter are those admissions rates, and they -- unlike, say, me -- have tons of experience steering kids through the process. And the time to apply to that private school is now, as it gets much harder to get in in later grades.

 

Second, while I myself don't feel this way, if my DH feels in his heart of heart as though the ultimate measure of success for our homeschooling is where our kids get into college, then I don't want to homeschool. My ILs certainly feel that way, but I can deal with that. And it's not like I plan to ignore the need to build college applications. However, if DH is going to evaluate our joint homeschooling success or failure primarily in terms of college admissions, then I would prefer to send the kids to private school (see above) and focus more on my own career.

 

Finally, I am absolutely convinced that we can provide our children with a more interesting, challenging, and exciting education here at home than anywhere we could send them.

 

So DH and I talked. And it was one of the few times in our 10+ year marriage that I have been truly surprised to find out what he was thinking. I thought for sure once I laid it all out like that he would want to start the private school process. Turns out, he is even more committed to homeschooling than I am.

 

We will see how things go, and high school is still many years away, but since that conversation I have been more energized and excited about homeschooling than I have been since we first started thinking about it years ago.

 

OP, I think you're smart to start thinking generally about the process now, and Shelly's post upthread seems like a very sane approach.

[SarahW]

Well, going to a particular school does really help for some field.

 

Google and IBM only run recruiting fairs at certain schools, for example.

 

I have a brother who bounced around various local Universities trying to get a computer science degree. Ended up working at a carpentry shop for a bit. Then he bit the bullet and went to a very expensive University in another state, one where Google and IBM have offices located nearby (just because). Before he graduated he interviewed for both, and then worked for both (long story). He now makes an ungodly amount of money.

 

Could you work for Google or IBM without going to a particular school? I suppose. But you'll have to jump through a bunch of hoops which are not there for all the other candidates.

[Farrar]

For every elite college made a huge difference anecdote, I'm sure there's a no-name state school led to success anecdote and vice versa.

 

In general, my goal is that my kids know there are always different paths in life that can lead to happiness and success.