SOCIAL GROUP: Discussing Progressive Christianity

[Matryoshka]

You're not reading what I say very carefully, then. I have said many times over that there may be many moral atheists; I don't know any. I'm making a statement about what I have observed with my own eyes in person, IRL.

 

 

 

Yes, but you're taking that very small sample size and making sweeping generalizations. I know you say "they may be out there but I don't know them" I think is you trying not to sound like that, but it comes across different in print. :)

 

I know lots of atheists, and lots of Evangelical Christians, and lots of Progressive Christians, and lots of Mormons, and a goodly number of Mainline Christians (the ones in between progressive and conservative) and Hindus and a few Buddhists, Pagans and Muslims. I think I live in a much more religiously diverse area of the country than you do. ;) Most of the these are very moral people (well, I tend not to befriend people I see as immoral, so I guess that makes sense...)

 

It may be different in that the atheists I know are not "angry" and are not atheists because they rejected anything - they just don't feel the need to believe in anything like that. They still are kind and compassionate and believe in helping those less fortunate, just because it's the right thing to do, not because God said so.

 

Honestly in my experience the people I've met who are the most "me-centered" as in "I've got mine and those poor people should just work harder if they don't want to starve/die without healthcare/etc." and unkind/unwelcoming "you can't be part of this group because you don't have the right beliefs" happen to be conservative Christians. I see this thinking to be stunningly the opposite of what Jesus preached, but that's what I have observed with my own eyes. (I also know conservative Christians who are not like this at all - but my sample size is larger than 3 people :) )

[Guest]

Have you tried to get to know these people? Ask them why they are angry? Talk to them like real people? One of my best friends is Athiest as well as my brother. They can be angry about certain things and rightly so. You aren't the first person to tell them they are immoral or not moral enough. They get that A LOT. I'm sure you can hear some anger in my tone but it doesn't make me a bad person or someone not to admire. (Not that I'm asking for admiration). Remember, even Jesus got angry at injustice. Let go of the preconceptions and get to know people for who they are. If you only want to admire Christians then you will only see Christians who are admirable. FWIW I find it admirable that my non believing friends are so willing to befriend Christians when Christians can be so judgmental of them.

 

 

What in the world makes you think I tell them they are immoral or not moral enough? That's totally absurd. I don't have many preconceptions of others.

 

You seem to have quite a few about me, though. Would you like to tell me what you're angry about? ;)

[Onceuponatime]

I've thought about this too. I do actually think that Jesus is the only way to Heaven. But I don't believe that it follows that all people who don't believe will not get there. I am not God. I don't know people's hearts nor do I know what God will do (large-scale or small) before that will be determined. For example, I cannot say that Gandhi will not be in Heaven. I actually think he will but I can't say that I *know or that I'm confident. IDK. Just pointing out that a belief that "Jesus is the only way" doesn't necessarily mean that other people will be damned. God is much bigger than anything I can imagine in my box.

 

ETA: To the bolded, I agree wholeheartedly. I don't have the answer, I just know Jesus is part of it.

 

 

 

 

I have reached the point in my life where I do not believe I will live forever and I am thankful that is so. If Heaven is the presence of God, I can experience it right now by becoming conscious of my own existence and my connection to the rest of creation. Anyone can choose to go there at any time. Jesus did. And I believe he was trying to teach others this same concept.

 

I think many of us in this thread have very different ideas about what it means to be a progressive Christian. I think our definitions of Christian terminology don't match up, so we are talking at cross purposes.

 

For me it means:

The Bible is not taken literally, but in parts mythically, in parts allegorically, in parts metaphorically, and in parts as legend with a real connection to history. It is true but not "the truth." It is inspired in the same way poetry is inspired, not supernaturally. It teaches us about the human condition. Jesus was an actual person, but he was not supernatural, there is no supernatural. He may or may not have said and done everything that is written about him. There is no literal Heaven or Hell. There is no God apart from what is. There is no need for salvation, but there is a need for understanding and compassion. I am a Christian because I follow the main teachings attributed to Jesus. Just as someone is a Buddhist because they follow the teachings attributed to Buddha.

[Guest]

Meh. Maybe I should become a RC or go Orthodox because their threads are better. :tongue_smilie: I feel misunderstood for my faith beliefs in a version of Christianity shaped by people who feel misunderstood for their faith beliefs. Familiar ground, in any case.

[Rosie_0801]

 

I think many of us in this thread have very different ideas about what it means to be a progressive Christian. I think our definitions of Christian terminology don't match up, so we are talking at cross purposes.

 

As long as people are finding some of the ideas they need to patch up the gaps in their thoughts, I guess it is all ok, is it?

[Mergath]

I don't think I've clearly stated what I believe yet, all in one neat little package, so here's my, er... If I say "Statement of Faith" is someone going to slap me? ;)

 

I believe in God in the sense that "God" is everything, the life within us all, the divine force of the world, something we've removed ourselves from and are trying to find a way back to. I don't think of God as the great bearded sky fairy the way some people do. (And I don't mean that offensively- it makes me think of a happy Gandalf floating around in the sky. I like that. I wish there was something like that some days.)

 

I think there are things we aren't capable of understanding yet, and that we all need to find our own way to interact with God. (Or Gus, in the WTM pagan circles. ;))

 

I don't believe in heaven or hell. I think that some part of us, some bit of our energy or life force lives on, but I don't think we float up out of our bodies, personality intact, and go anywhere.

 

I think that the farther we get from nature and the life of the world, the farther we get from God.

 

I think that, over time, there have been people who had a much stronger connection with God that tried to teach the rest of us, and that all the different religions of the world contain valid teachings about how to reach the Divine and so better understand ourselves. I do not, however, believe that any one religion is the way for everyone, nor do I believe in punishment if you choose the wrong path. The bible, like most religious texts, contains some of the wisdom inherent in Christianity, along with a lot of other stuff that got thrown in over the years. Which is why I'd like to study it with other like-minded people, but don't refer to myself as a Christian.

 

I don't know everything, or even a fraction of everything. I'm feeling my way through the dark just like everyone else on all this, and reserve the right to refine my view of the world at any time. ;)

[Onceuponatime]

 

As long as people are finding some of the ideas they need to patch up the gaps in their thoughts, I guess it is all ok, is it?

 

Most definitely, but it helps if you know where the other person is coming from. :001_smile:

[Rosie_0801]

Meh. Maybe I should become a RC or go Orthodox because their threads are better. :tongue_smilie: I feel misunderstood for my faith beliefs in a version of Christianity shaped by people who feel misunderstood for their faith beliefs. Familiar ground, in any case.

 

I don't think I am misunderstanding your religious beliefs, the ones you've put here in black and white. I don't mind what you believe because it is your business, not mine. I am misunderstanding your purpose in your participation here because you've wondered aloud how people reconcile various ideas when you don't feel comfortable entertaining the provided ideas because you don't trust the source. So I am concluding that I have nothing to offer you. Which will presumably come as a relief. :p

[Mergath]

Meh. Maybe I should become a RC or go Orthodox because their threads are better. :tongue_smilie: I feel misunderstood for my faith beliefs in a version of Christianity shaped by people who feel misunderstood for their faith beliefs. Familiar ground, in any case.

 

I think it's just easier for them, because they tend to argue more over the meaning of a biblical phrase or what date a religious holiday should fall on, as opposed to here, where we debate the whole of existence and what it all means. :p

 

But RCs do get all the cool toys. Incense, statues, candles... If I was going to be a full-out Christian, I'd be RC because it's just so pretty.

 

Is that horrible and blasphemous? I don't know. But I mean it in a nice and complementary way. Their religious ceremonies are beautiful.

[Onceuponatime]

Meh. Maybe I should become a RC or go Orthodox because their threads are better. :tongue_smilie: I feel misunderstood for my faith beliefs in a version of Christianity shaped by people who feel misunderstood for their faith beliefs. Familiar ground, in any case.

 

Perhaps it would help us to understand if you explained what Christianity means to you. No judgement here.

[8circles]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the point of this thread then. I didn't think we were all trying to agree on what the correct theoloy was but to share our theological thoughts that aren't in lock-step with "traditional" Christianity. I don't want to convince anyone that I'm right. Forgive me for participating out of turn.

 

 

Where is Heaven? What is Heaven? How do you know it exists? Why are you trying to go there?

 

I have reached the point in my life where I do not believe I will live forever and I am thankful that is so. If Heaven is the presence of God, I can experience it right now by becoming conscious of my own existence and my connection to the rest of creation. Anyone can choose to go there at any time. Jesus did. And I believe he was trying to teach others this same concept.

 

I think many of us in this thread have very different ideas about what it means to be a progressive Christian. I think our definitions of Christian terminology don't match up, so we are talking at cross purposes.

 

For me it means:

The Bible is not taken literally, but in parts mythically, in parts allegorically, in parts metaphorically, and in parts as legend with a real connection to history. It is true but not "the truth." It is inspired in the same way poetry is inspired, not supernaturally. It teaches us about the human condition. Jesus was an actual person, but he was not supernatural, there is no supernatural. He may or may not have said and done everything that is written about him. There is no literal Heaven or Hell. There is no God apart from what is. There is no need for salvation, but there is a need for understanding and compassion. I am a Christian because I follow the main teachings attributed to Jesus. Just as someone is a Buddhist because they follow the teachings attributed to Buddha.

[Izzy]

-

[Matryoshka]

Meh. Maybe I should become a RC or go Orthodox because their threads are better. :tongue_smilie: I feel misunderstood for my faith beliefs in a version of Christianity shaped by people who feel misunderstood for their faith beliefs. Familiar ground, in any case.

 

:grouphug: I don't think you're being misunderstood - you've said how you feel on that point, and you're welcome to feel or believe anything you want. It just seems like you've been wanting everyone (or anyone) to agree with that particular belief. I wasn't trying to jump on you, just explain why you weren't getting that agreement. :grouphug:

 

This is one place where it's completely okay to agree to disagree. Many progressive Christians also do believe in the divinity of Jesus, and the virgin birth, and all that. Many don't. It's all good.

[Onceuponatime]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the point of this thread then. I didn't think we were all trying to agree on what the correct theoloy was but to share our theological thoughts that aren't in lock-step with "traditional" Christianity. I don't want to convince anyone that I'm right. Forgive me for participating out of turn.

 

I apologize if it seems that I am trying to come up with a correct theology. I'm not trying to convince anyone that I am right. I was also trying to share my own theological thoughts that aren't in lock-step with "traditional" Christianity. I don't even think it matters if I'm right or not, but how can we have a conversation if we do not understand each other? You aren't participating out of turn. I'm not in charge here. ;) Maybe I've invested a little too much in this thread. Sometimes there is a fine line between arguing and discussing. I would like to discuss. :D

 

No hard feelings?

[Guest]

:grouphug: I don't think you're being misunderstood - you've said how you feel on that point, and you're welcome to feel or believe anything you want. It just seems like you've been wanting everyone (or anyone) to agree with that particular belief. I wasn't trying to jump on you, just explain why you weren't getting that agreement. :grouphug:

 

This is one place where it's completely okay to agree to disagree. Many progressive Christians also do believe in the divinity of Jesus, and the virgin birth, and all that. Many don't. It's all good.

 

I'm not looking for agreement. I really don't care what others believe. The only reason I spoke further about the moral atheists thing was because a PP said it was "extremely offensive" and I wanted to clarify that I do not hold a belief that it's impossible to be good without being a Christian or even without being a spiritual person.

 

But whatever.

[Onceuponatime]

So should we come up with specific topic(s) to discuss so that we are not chasing our tails?

[Jenny in Florida]

But why does someone transport themselves out of their comfortable 4-bedroom home with heat and plumbing so they can go help unrelated people in another country, risking their health and certainly their comfort to try and make life better for others? I don't see a naturally occurring purpose to doing that.

 

 

Because it's the right thing to do.

 

I remember hearing an episode of Radiolab (I think) that was about the question of whether humans and other animals are naturally imbued with compassion. And, as I recall, the simple answer was that research indicates we are.

 

Honestly, I remember hearing this exact same argument -- that unless one believes in God there's no reason to be good -- on the playground of my elementary school and disliking it then. At the time, I considered myself an athiest (except maybe for the goddess I invented when I was scared of the dark), and I was downright insulted that anyone would think I needed some outside force to frighten me into being good and kind. Even at age 10, I knew that argument didn't hold water.

[Rosie_0801]

Sure. I want to know more about this desire for community. I am a solitary girl, I understand many reasons why other people desire community in religion. I still don't get how being a solitary practitioner is not an option for so many. Is it because they are community in religion people only? I don't understand why someone has to stop identifying as a pagan because their local pagan group doesn't work for them or why they can't be a solitary quaker or whatever. If you currently belong to a religion of one, what are these other people you are trying to find for?

[elegantlion]

I'm curious how many people live in an area of diverse religious groups. From my front porch I can see three christian churches, but they're not someplace I'd feel comfortable attending just now. So, I guess I'm asking how many of you have options to visit different churches? If so, do you? Or are you as some have stated on this thread, a solitary pilgrim?

[Mergath]

So should we come up with specific topic(s) to discuss so that we are not chasing our tails?

 

 

I know that, at some point, I'd love to discuss the history of the bible itself. I'm guessing most of us here don't believe it's inerrant, but is it divinely inspired? Are parts of it? Has anyone read the gnostic gospels, and found value there, as well? Should people like us bother with stuff like the Old Testament or the Pauline epistles? And most importantly, how good must the acid have been back then, because holy cow Revelation, what a trip.

[Jenny in Florida]

 

What in the world makes you think I tell them they are immoral or not moral enough? That's totally absurd. I don't have many preconceptions of others.

 

You seem to have quite a few about me, though. Would you like to tell me what you're angry about? ;)

 

 

I know we don't own threads once we start them, and I did label this one as a "group." However, I'd very much appreciate it if we could drop this line of discussion now and move on to something that might be more productive and inclusive.

 

Thanks!

[elegantlion]

Sure. I want to know more about this desire for community. I am a solitary girl, I understand many reasons why other people desire community in religion. I still don't get how being a solitary practitioner is not an option for so many. Is it because they are community in religion people only? I don't understand why someone has to stop identifying as a pagan because their local pagan group doesn't work for them or why they can't be a solitary quaker or whatever. If you currently belong to a religion of one, what are these other people you are trying to find for?

 

 

We posted at the same time.

 

I know where I grew up and the in the area, church is community event. People who are solitary believers were more of the new age, mystic sense of people. At least that's what it looked like from within the church mindset. Many people seem to think that you can't be a solitary christian because part of being a christian is the fellowship with others in worship.

 

People find accountability in their spiritual walk, kinship, and for many a social outlet, volunteer work, outreach, etc.

 

It's like going out to eat, some people don't like to eat out alone, they prefer to go with someone.

 

Homes churches are an option in some areas, but even that seems "weird" to some.

 

I also know a lot of people who play church because it's what they've always done. They go, listen well to the sermon, use their good manners, go to mama's for Sunday supper and then forget about everything they heard the next day. I think church is just part of the culture for some areas.

[Jenny in Florida]

 

 

I have reached the point in my life where I do not believe I will live forever and I am thankful that is so. If Heaven is the presence of God, I can experience it right now by becoming conscious of my own existence and my connection to the rest of creation. Anyone can choose to go there at any time. Jesus did. And I believe he was trying to teach others this same concept.

 

 

 

One of the things I'm doing to help me define where I am theologically and kind of ground myself as I follow this slightly scary path is to keep a log of quotes that particularly strike me as I read. Your comment reminds me of this one from Bart Ehrman's Did Jesus Exist?

 

"In the Kingdom, there would be no more war, and so Jesus’s followers were to be peacemakers now. In the Kingdom, there would be no more hatred, and so his followers were to love everyone now. In the Kingdom, there would be no injustice, no oppression, and so his followers were to fight for the rights of the oppressed now. In the Kingdom, there would be no hunger, thirst or poverty, and so his followers were to minister to the poor and homeless now. In the Kingdom, there would be no illness, and so Jesus’s followers were to tend to the sick now."

[ktgrok]

This is pretty much what I believe too. I am Christian. i am struggling right now with the idea that Jesus is the only way to Heaven. Part of me thinks that's just nonsense. But part of me believes it (and it is this part I am ashamed of, because I think to believe that you have the ANSWER is a little bit insane). So I struggle.

 

 

I went through an RCIA class and this is how it was explained there, and I kind of like the idea. Their teaching was that we KNOW Jesus is the way to heaven. Now, that doesn't mean there are no other possible ways, but we KNOW this way is right. So we stick with the sure thing and trust that God, in his mercy, will work out the rest. Also I was taught in that class that we know there are people in heaven (the Saints), but as far as we know there might be absolutely no one in hell, God may in his mercy, or in his mysterious ways, have a way for everyone to go to heaven.

[Mergath]

Sure. I want to know more about this desire for community. I am a solitary girl, I understand many reasons why other people desire community in religion. I still don't get how being a solitary practitioner is not an option for so many. Is it because they are community in religion people only? I don't understand why someone has to stop identifying as a pagan because their local pagan group doesn't work for them or why they can't be a solitary quaker or whatever. If you currently belong to a religion of one, what are these other people you are trying to find for?

 

 

I just like to have people to talk to about this sort of thing. And, believing that God is part of us all, if we come together for spiritual reasons, maybe that means there's more God around? Lol, I'm not really sure. I just wish I could go to different religious places and say, "Hey, I'm here to learn but I'm not a Christian/Jew/Muslim/etc." without people thinking I'm a nutbag or undercover reporter or something. I'm perfectly happy being alone with my weird religious mishmash most of the time, but it's nice to get out and be with people when it comes to this stuff too.

[Onceuponatime]

Sure. I want to know more about this desire for community. I am a solitary girl, I understand many reasons why other people desire community in religion. I still don't get how being a solitary practitioner is not an option for so many. Is it because they are community in religion people only? I don't understand why someone has to stop identifying as a pagan because their local pagan group doesn't work for them or why they can't be a solitary quaker or whatever. If you currently belong to a religion of one, what are these other people you are trying to find for?

 

 

In my experience Christianity emphasizes community. Scriptures are read about "not forsaking the assembling of yourselves together." Sermons are given about "You can't be a Christian alone." I've personally known Christians who gave up practicing when in remote military duty stations and then resumed when they were back in more populated areas. I think it is partially because many of us never hear of Christians practicing alone, especially evangelical protestants. If they do, they are usually missionaries, so they don't intend to keep practicing alone. It is often believed that the whole purpose of Christianity is to create a a physical kingdom for God. I think another part is they have no idea what to do with their religion when they are alone.

 

I really know very little about other faiths in this country.

[Jenny in Florida]

Sure. I want to know more about this desire for community. I am a solitary girl, I understand many reasons why other people desire community in religion. I still don't get how being a solitary practitioner is not an option for so many. Is it because they are community in religion people only? I don't understand why someone has to stop identifying as a pagan because their local pagan group doesn't work for them or why they can't be a solitary quaker or whatever. If you currently belong to a religion of one, what are these other people you are trying to find for?

 

 

I think, especially maybe for new seekers like some of us here, that many of us feel a drive to seek out "our own kind," to learn and be inspired and feel not alone.

 

With that said, I agree that I don't really understand why one can't be what one is, even if one is on her own being that thing. I suspect that it's more that folks try out a label or group they think might be right, get turned off by an attitued they encounter there, and then feel like then need to move on and try something else. It's not that I can't be a solitary Quaker, but more that one or a few Quakers said or did things that made me feel like I didn't want to be one of their group.

 

(The "I" statements there were because I was sick of typing "one," not because I have anything against Quakers.)

[ktgrok]

I think it's just easier for them, because they tend to argue more over the meaning of a biblical phrase or what date a religious holiday should fall on, as opposed to here, where we debate the whole of existence and what it all means. :p

 

But RCs do get all the cool toys. Incense, statues, candles... If I was going to be a full-out Christian, I'd be RC because it's just so pretty.

 

Is that horrible and blasphemous? I don't know. But I mean it in a nice and complementary way. Their religious ceremonies are beautiful.

 

 

Us Episcopalians get incense and candles too! Not so many statues it seems, but still.

[Mergath]

I'm curious how many people live in an area of diverse religious groups. From my front porch I can see three christian churches, but they're not someplace I'd feel comfortable attending just now. So, I guess I'm asking how many of you have options to visit different churches? If so, do you? Or are you as some have stated on this thread, a solitary pilgrim?

 

 

Oh, there are all kinds of options here for church-going folk. As long as you're Lutheran. ;)

 

I lived in a bigger city before we moved here, and it was much more diverse. I knew so many people of different faiths. Christians, Pagans, Muslims, Atheists, and everything in between. Being here is rather depressing. "You're what? Pagging?" *sigh* I'm trapped in the diversity stone age. There is a very liberal UCC church I've actually considered attending. I don't believe everything they do, but they come a lot closer than anything else around here, and it would be nice to have some kind of communal religious experience. And since I'm never going to find a church of Pagabuddhiagnochristology, I'm going to have to compromise in some way. ;)

[ktgrok]

Because it's the right thing to do.

 

I remember hearing an episode of Radiolab (I think) that was about the question of whether humans and other animals are naturally imbued with compassion. And, as I recall, the simple answer was that research indicates we are.

 

Honestly, I remember hearing this exact same argument -- that unless one believes in God there's no reason to be good -- on the playground of my elementary school and disliking it then. At the time, I considered myself an athiest (except maybe for the goddess I invented when I was scared of the dark), and I was downright insulted that anyone would think I needed some outside force to frighten me into being good and kind. Even at age 10, I knew that argument didn't hold water.

 

 

hmm. maybe they don't mean it that way. not that you need to be frightened into being good. More that the way you KNOW that it isn't good is because the voice of God is speaking to you? That the whole idea of good versus evil implies a benchmark or grading system beyond our own selves? Just thinking aloud here...the beginning of Mere Christianity follows that line of thought.

[Onceuponatime]

One of the things I'm doing to help me define where I am theologically and kind of ground myself as I follow this slightly scary path is to keep a log of quotes that particularly strike me as I read. Your comment reminds me of this one from Bart Ehrman's Did Jesus Exist?

 

"In the Kingdom, there would be no more war, and so Jesus’s followers were to be peacemakers now. In the Kingdom, there would be no more hatred, and so his followers were to love everyone now. In the Kingdom, there would be no injustice, no oppression, and so his followers were to fight for the rights of the oppressed now. In the Kingdom, there would be no hunger, thirst or poverty, and so his followers were to minister to the poor and homeless now. In the Kingdom, there would be no illness, and so Jesus’s followers were to tend to the sick now."

 

Lovely.

 

One of my new favorite Bible verses is one that says (paraphrased) Do not look for the kingdom here or there, for the kingdom of God is in you.- Jesus

[Jenny in Florida]

I'm curious how many people live in an area of diverse religious groups. From my front porch I can see three christian churches, but they're not someplace I'd feel comfortable attending just now. So, I guess I'm asking how many of you have options to visit different churches? If so, do you? Or are you as some have stated on this thread, a solitary pilgrim?

 

In theory, we have diversity here. It seems like there is at least one church every couple of blocks in Orlando. And I know we have, in addition to mainline Christian churches of various denominations and flavors, at least three synagogues, a couple of mosques, a Hindu temple, two UU churches, Unity, a Friends meeting and more. However, what I'm finding as I research and visit local options is that most of the Christian churches are -- no matter how liberal they sound on their websites -- more conservative/traditional than will work for me.

 

So far, my best bets seem to be two UCC congregations. I've visted each and am planning to go back to one of them tomorrow.

 

One obstacle I've run into when I've made steps toward searching before was that it was assumed I'd be taking my family with me if/when I moved to a new spiritual home. So things like an active, well-functioning religious education program and youth activities were important. Since many of the churches in which I seem to be interested are smaller congregations and often have a larger number of older folks, that has often been a problem. Now that my daughter has aged out and lost interest in youth activities and moving next door to the UU church makes it possible for my son to continue there without my presence, I'm free to go where I will be fed without worrying about those parts of the equation.

[Rosie_0801]

We posted at the same time.

 

I know where I grew up and the in the area, church is community event. People who are solitary believers were more of the new age, mystic sense of people. At least that's what it looked like from within the church mindset. Many people seem to think that you can't be a solitary christian because part of being a christian is the fellowship with others in worship.

 

People find accountability in their spiritual walk, kinship, and for many a social outlet, volunteer work, outreach, etc.

 

It's like going out to eat, some people don't like to eat out alone, they prefer to go with someone.

 

Homes churches are an option in some areas, but even that seems "weird" to some.

 

I also know a lot of people who play church because it's what they've always done. They go, listen well to the sermon, use their good manners, go to mama's for Sunday supper and then forget about everything they heard the next day. I think church is just part of the culture for some areas.

 

I understand all these things. Is the part I don't understand a self esteem thing? A bit of church baggage that says what you believe/think/do about it isn't real without a community of people to validate you?

 

Ah, I see Mergath has answered also. "I like to chat" seems valid to me too. :p I do my chatting online though, where I can chat or not as I like and don't need to take part in anyone else's rituals. Does online chatting not work for others here? Does it really need to be face to face? Isn't that a bit weird for a bunch of mostly introverts? (That last sentence is a joke, ok :p)

[Jenny in Florida]

I just like to have people to talk to about this sort of thing. And, believing that God is part of us all, if we come together for spiritual reasons, maybe that means there's more God around? Lol, I'm not really sure.

 

One of the ministerial interns at one of the UU churches of which I was a member gave a sermon once in which she speculated that "God" may, in fact, be what happens in the connections between us. When one of us helps another, interacts lovingly with another, what passes between us, according to her, might be God.

 

And now, for a confession from me: There's this Jewel song I really love. It's cheesy, I know. But it always makes me a little teary. It ends with the following lyrics:

 

We are never broken

We are God's eyes

God's hands

God's mind

We are God's eyes

God's hands

God's heart

We are God's eyes

God's hands

God's eyes

We are God's hands

We are God's hands

 

 

So, yeah, I think maybe there is something special that happens when people gather with the intention of "doing religion." Or, at least, there can be something special, when things work out the right way.

[Jenny in Florida]

 

Us Episcopalians get incense and candles too! Not so many statues it seems, but still.

 

And the music! Honestly, one of the things that has driven me nuts about the UUs for years is that we can't sing. I mean, individual UUs can, but we just don't get the whole singing in a group thing. Plus, since we don't like hymns or songs that are "too Christian," we end up singing a lot of things that aren't terribly pretty or tuneful. All in all, the music is really spotty. And, although I don't sing much anymore, I've often said that the times I've felt closest to God are singing in a really great choir. So, the lack of decent music has been a real problem for me over the years.

 

My kids have each sung with the choirs based at the Episcopal cathedral here, though, meaning I visit there fairly frequently. And, boy oh boy, the music is always just spectacular. I always say that, if I could just change a bunch of the lyrics, listening to the music could be my worship all on its own.

[Dicentra]

More thoughts and questions. (I tend to think in questions - anyone else like that? Sometimes I wonder if I'm not happier seeking the next question than I am seeking an answer for any of them. :001_smile: )

 

What do you (meaning anyone who happens to be reading this) think of the difference between faith and religion? Same? Different? I tend to see faith as individual endevour but religion as a community endevour - does that make sense? Whatever is going on in my heart and in my mind doesn't need a label but I see that as my faith. If I want to self-identify with a community of somewhat like-minded individuals (and I would call that a religion), then there's a part of me that thinks that the community must have some commonalities (even if that commonality is that we all agree to disagree ;) ) and so based on those commonalities we would want a label that identifies us. That label would help other like-minded folks to find us. So I guess my faith is what goes on in my heart and mind and I would never expect to find anyone who would agree with me 100% since my faith is so tied in to who I am as an individual and is growing and changing every moment. My religion would be based on the commonalities of which ever group of somewhat like-minded individuals I would choose to hang with and would be much more defined and less fluid since there would have to be a consensus among the group regarding the commonalities and we couldn't be changing that everytime one of us changed a little in our inner faith.

 

So... To summarize:

Faith - fluid, individual, no label

Religion - more defined, communal, probably labelled

For me, at any rate. :001_smile:

[Onceuponatime]

I'm curious how many people live in an area of diverse religious groups. From my front porch I can see three christian churches, but they're not someplace I'd feel comfortable attending just now. So, I guess I'm asking how many of you have options to visit different churches? If so, do you? Or are you as some have stated on this thread, a solitary pilgrim?

 

In my rural county of 6,000 people there is one Episcopal church, one Methodist church, a Jehovah's Witness, a few AME, and at least a dozen Baptist churches. There are three different Baptist churches within 3 blocks of my house. No Catholic churches, and no other public faith groups that I know of. I'm pretty sure that there are pagans, but they keep a low profile. I think if I identified publicly as pagan, I would have to move.

 

However, in the nearest city there is a sampling of every kind of group imaginable.

[Mergath]

I think if I identified publicly as pagan, I would have to move.

 

 

Around here, if you use your car's bumper to publicly identify as Pagan, people will be kind enough to remove everything from your car and fling it into the alley.

 

Ask me how I know. :glare:

[Matryoshka]

I understand all these things. Is the part I don't understand a self esteem thing? A bit of church baggage that says what you believe/think/do about it isn't real without a community of people to validate you?

 

No, for me it's not that at all. I sought out a church because I wanted a place to be spiritually fed, and grow. By myself, I don't often necessarily think or reflect on things spiritual. I'm busy, I'm doing things, daily tasks (and spending time online...) get in the way. Maybe if I actually found/made the time to meditate - it's something I keep wanting to do, but the end of the day comes, and it hasn't happened.

 

At the church I'm at, the sermons have made me think and reflect about things and people bigger than myself and my day-to-day problems. It's given me space to think about what do I believe, anyway (which is why I wanted a place that would let me reflect on that, rather then tell me "this is what you should believe"). For the past few years, I have actually rarely gotten to the sermons, because I've been teaching the middle school RE classes, but that's fed me in a different way, as the middle school has been learning about World Religions, and that's given me a reason to learn more about other faiths and their beliefs and practices and history, and then pass what I could of that on to the kids, and that has been great too.

 

I also like the singing all together. :) Isn't there a scripture somewhere that talks about something like "make a joyful noise unto God" or something like that? I like the joyful noise. :D

 

It's also had the side effect of getting to know others in my town, including people of different ages and stages of life, which can be hard as a homeschooler - but that was a side effect, not the reason I started going.

[Rosie_0801]

More thoughts and questions. (I tend to think in questions - anyone else like that? Sometimes I wonder if I'm not happier seeking the next question than I am seeking an answer for any of them. :001_smile: )

 

Whatever works for ya :p

 

What do you (meaning anyone who happens to be reading this) think of the difference between faith and religion? Same? Different?

 

Different. Religion is a spiritual system, whether you're buying off the shelf or DIY. Faith is a synonym for trust.

 

I don't think I ever use faith in a religious sense with regards to myself. It wouldn't make sense. Of course I have faith in myself, I know what I can and can't do, what I do and don't want to do and my opinions on practically everything. :p Not sure there is anything else in a religious sense for me to have faith in.

 

 

This is very Aussie of me, but I have barely a clue what religions are represented around here. There are churches, so there must be enough Christians to keep them afloat. I know from the pagan FB group I read that there is one other Pagan. No idea who she is. I think she's a she, lol. I've seen two hijabis so there has to be Muslims. And that's all the evidence I've collected!

 

 

I guess that is the advantage to having a label, Matryoshka. With a label, you can find a yahoo or FB group to join. :p The mods on my pagan group take turns to float questions to stimulate conversation. Would it be too personal to ask what you think you should meditate about? I don't think I'm a meditating sort of girl, but I do think a lot. It's a cheap hobby. :p

[sparrow]

Your first bolded point: I think about this, too. I disbelieve so much of the faith elements I was brought up to believe, but God still resonates with me. There is even a part where I am tender-hearted towards Jesus. There are songs that touch me deeply in the element that there is a God who is worthy of my worship. Like in the song, "Oh Holy Night" as sung by John Berry - when he sings, "...fall on your knees, oh hear the angels voices, oh night Divine, oh night when Christ was born..." I could weep. There's a beauty there that touches me deeply. I've had some experiences where I felt what I can only describe as Divine Love and those touchpoints in my memory make me still want God and faith.

 

Your second bolded part: was your dh brought up with a faith? What I've seen anecdotally is agnostics or atheists whom I admire were brought up in a faith, which they left as an adult. And other people I admire do have a faith that they actively pursue. I have not met an atheist/agnostic who was raised that way whom I admire (not to say they couldn't possibly exist, just that I have not met one). I think there is a positive shaping for children when they grow up with a faith. There is a stability and certainty that I think would be harder to come by if their parents had no conclusive beliefs they could grasp. This belief of mine is part of the reason I want my children to grow up with Christianity, even though I have come to disbelieve a lot of the tenets of the faith myself.

 

Lastly, I have witnessed people totally transformed by becoming a Christian (not to say that doesn't happen with other faiths as well). There is certainly something in that. My nephew became a Christian this past year and he is truly "a new creation." He radiates love and peace, though he is dealing with a lot of fall out from his previous bad choices. In that respect, I am so happy he has found *something* that has turned his life around so dramatically. I wouldn't care if he had become a Buddhist or a Muslim or whatever, but just to see him so changed is beautiful. I have seen that with other people as well and it is - well, there is something in that.

 

Quill, :grouphug: . You've been taking heat on your response to me and that makes me feel bad :(. I haven't even had a chance to respond.

 

I'm also very moved by some religious music. The last notes of "How Great Thou Art", sung by a large and exuberant congregation, give me chills!

 

My husband was actually brought up Catholic. Catholicism is his only line in the sand regarding attending churches or religious exposure for our kids. He does not want our children raised Catholic. So far, I don't see an issue with moral understanding, despite our kids' lack of religion/religious education.

 

I have to say the most kind and giving people I personally know are Christian. The majority of people I know identify as atheist/agnostic. I guess I just know a bunch of selfish pr*cks :001_smile: .

 

Finally, good for your nephew! I get warm fuzzies from anyone that turns their life completely around.

[Rosie_0801]

I wonder if you seekers could find or found philosophy/religion in the pub/cafe arrangements in your towns? That'd provide a place for chatting without compatibility being so important as it is in a congregation.

[myfunnybunch]

 

But there's not an evolutionary purpose to suffering hardship for the benefit of others who are not your relatives and not your tribe. I agree that in your tribe, your social group, it would be beneficial to be liked by others, thus, do things that people like - "good" things. But why does someone transport themselves out of their comfortable 4-bedroom home with heat and plumbing so they can go help unrelated people in another country, risking their health and certainly their comfort to try and make life better for others? I don't see a naturally occurring purpose to doing that.

 

Chiming in to this thread late, now that I'm almost caught up....Just musing: How much of what we consider "tribe" or "social group" has to do with awareness and proximity? As our awareness and access to information expands globally, so (perhaps) does "tribal" thinking. Tribe and social group becomes something that extends to all human beings rather than being limited to family/community/nation, at least for some people.

 

I wonder, too, if for me this kind of global thinking is a part of what causes me to question and challenge the Christian faith I was taught. The idea that all of those people out there, people trying to be faithful, peaceful, hopeful, compassionate, joyful, loving, people who were raised to believe differently....the idea that they may face eternal suffering simply because they weren't raised in the faith I was raised in....well, it gives me pause when I realize that I think of all of those people as my people.

 

Cat

[Snow]

 

 

I know that, at some point, I'd love to discuss the history of the bible itself. I'm guessing most of us here don't believe it's inerrant, but is it divinely inspired? Are parts of it? Has anyone read the gnostic gospels, and found value there, as well? Should people like us bother with stuff like the Old Testament or the Pauline epistles? And most importantly, how good must the acid have been back then, because holy cow Revelation, what a trip.

 

Inspired, yes. Inerrant, no. Agreed.

 

I haven't read the gnostic gospels. I'm curious to hear everyones thoughts on them.

 

As for the OT, i read it because there are some very inspiring people and stories. Also, I think it's interesting historically. It's the back story on humanity itself. How do we cope with things we don't understand? What do we do when we feel abandoned by god? I think it's a record of humanity's most basic questions.

 

Is the problem people have with Paul the chauvinist, "women submit to your husbands" stuff? Or is there something else wrong with him? I have to say, some of my favorite verses come those letters.

[Snow]

So should we come up with specific topic(s) to discuss so that we are not chasing our tails?

 

Originally I thought we would share the insights we have gleaned from books and bible verses (or hurdles we have) and help one another to understand these things with a progressive/non-literal viewpoint but now I wonder if that's not quite the right tone given the discussions and variety of theologies expressed so far?

[Jenny in Florida]

I wonder if you seekers could find or found philosophy/religion in the pub/cafe arrangements in your towns? That'd provide a place for chatting without compatibility being so important as it is in a congregation.

 

No pubs here, except for the cutesy, touristy appromixations.

 

I'm trying to imagine sitting around in a Starbucks and asking each person who comes through the door if he or she would like to discuss religion . . . It's a fun idea, but I don't think it would get me far.

 

The thing about going to church is that you know everyone else present is there for something approximating the same reason and is likely to be reasonably amenable to chatting about it. Since there is also, usually, at least one trained clergy person around, you've also got a pretty good shot at hearing something coherent and thoughtful. You might disagree with it, but it's likely to be a complete thought. Maybe you've got more interesting or intelligent folks in Australia, but I can't imagine hoping for meaningful conversation with whoever happens to drop in at my corner coffee shop.

[Jenny in Florida]

Originally I thought we would share the insights we have gleaned from books and bible verses (or hurdles we have) and help one another to understand these things with a progressive/non-literal viewpoint but now I wonder if that's not quite the right tone given the discussions and variety of theologies expressed so far?

 

I think that's a fine idea, actually, although I don't think we necessarily need to restrict the conversation (except to try and keep it civil).

 

I'm curious how many of us feel we have a solid grounding in Bible literacy? I know I don't really. I wasn't raised in a religious home and had no religious training or education beyond the bits I collected attending services with friends. My longest stint anywhere was with an LDS friend while I was in elementary school, and I don't remember much of anything there except the remnants of the lyrics for one song and the fact that I had to wear a dress.

 

As a young adult, I started teaching RE at a UU church. At that point (early 1980s), we didn't have a lot of formal curricular materials available. (Or maybe it was just that my tiny fellowship hadn't invested funds to purchase anything.) So, RE was pretty loose, consisting mostly of whatever the day's teacher felt like teaching. I quickly discovered that Buddha and Mohammed and especially anything about Native American spirituality were welcome topics, but anything specifically Judeo-Christian made people twitchy. So many of the folks there were relatively recent come-outers, and they were terrified their kids would be indoctrinated unless we kept a strict eye on things. Because being an English major in college had taught me exactly how critical Biblical allusions are to understanding literature, not to mention how unprepared I was to rebut any statement made to me by a missionary at my door, I was adamant that our UU youth needed to know the basics of the most common Bible stories and some general information about the scriptures.

 

Since we didn't have those materials, I set about making them up for my class. I started hanging out at the Christian bookstore, buying coloring books I would cut up, reassemble into projects and worksheets and then photocopy to pass around every Sunday morning. Over the course of a few weeks, we went through a brief biography of Moses. (The kids especially enjoyed my Pin the Plague on the Pharoah game.) Then, we moved on to Jesus.

 

I continued teaching RE on and off for another 20 or so years and continued learning little bits here and there. I also studied portions of the Old Testament alongside my daughter when she had it on her WTM reading list. But that hodgepodge, and the fact that I've seen Godspell, Jesus Christ Superstar, Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat and Children of Eden more times than I can count (as well as The Ten Commandments and the Dreamworks animated version of The Prince of Egypt), is all I've got.

[Rosie_0801]

Maybe you've got more interesting or intelligent folks in Australia, but I can't imagine hoping for meaningful conversation with whoever happens to drop in at my corner coffee shop.

 

 

Lol, I wouldn't bet on it. I wasn't suggesting you bail up everyone who walks through the door. (Giggling at that visual!) I suppose people advertise and drag a friend along so they don't feel like a loser if no one shows up. I've never been to one, but I know there are quite a few around so they must work for some. I was merely suggesting the idea in case it was useful to someone. :)

 

ROFL to "Pin the Plague on the Pharaoh!" I guess he had it coming to him. :p

[MIch elle]

Speaking of songs - I've always loved "One of Us".

 

"What if God was one of us. Just a slob like one of us, just a stranger on the bus trying to make his way home."

 

[Guest]

 

 

hmm. maybe they don't mean it that way. not that you need to be frightened into being good. More that the way you KNOW that it isn't good is because the voice of God is speaking to you? That the whole idea of good versus evil implies a benchmark or grading system beyond our own selves? Just thinking aloud here...the beginning of Mere Christianity follows that line of thought.

 

This, pretty much. Not fear. That is part of what I rejected in Christianity a long time ago.

 

Quill, :grouphug: . You've been taking heat on your response to me and that makes me feel bad :(. I haven't even had a chance to respond.

 

I'm also very moved by some religious music. The last notes of "How Great Thou Art", sung by a large and exuberant congregation, give me chills!

 

My husband was actually brought up Catholic. Catholicism is his only line in the sand regarding attending churches or religious exposure for our kids. He does not want our children raised Catholic. So far, I don't see an issue with moral understanding, despite our kids' lack of religion/religious education.

 

I have to say the most kind and giving people I personally know are Christian. The majority of people I know identify as atheist/agnostic. I guess I just know a bunch of selfish pr*cks :001_smile: .

 

Finally, good for your nephew! I get warm fuzzies from anyone that turns their life completely around.

 

Ah, a kind and rational response. Those are nice. :tongue_smilie: I would say more about your husband's background, but I know better now, so I'll just say thank you for answering my question. :)

 

Chiming in to this thread late, now that I'm almost caught up....Just musing: How much of what we consider "tribe" or "social group" has to do with awareness and proximity? As our awareness and access to information expands globally, so (perhaps) does "tribal" thinking. Tribe and social group becomes something that extends to all human beings rather than being limited to family/community/nation, at least for some people.

 

I wonder, too, if for me this kind of global thinking is a part of what causes me to question and challenge the Christian faith I was taught. The idea that all of those people out there, people trying to be faithful, peaceful, hopeful, compassionate, joyful, loving, people who were raised to believe differently....the idea that they may face eternal suffering simply because they weren't raised in the faith I was raised in....well, it gives me pause when I realize that I think of all of those people as my people.

 

Cat

 

Interesting consideration. One of the first tenets of the Christian faith that bothered me was "Jesus is the only way" as it is traditionally understood. My parents don't even view Catholics as "true Christians." It's a bummer really, because my father was raised Catholic and I rather wish I had been. :laugh: I think it would have been better than the Pentacostal fundie way I was brought up. But anyway, I wasn't out of my teens yet when I began to think it was illogical that only people with *our* beliefs were correct and everybody else - people who were born in the Congo, Native American spiritualists, the Buddah - whomever else, were all burning in hell forever and ever. :glare: