I need an LDS social group thread

[Amira]

 

Maybe someone that knows can explain the doctrinal inequality that is being protested. ?

 

This will mean different things to different people, of course, but one small but seemingly clear example to me is that I am concerned that women who do not live in reasonable geographic proximity to a priesthood holder cannot have the sacrament. Men can bless the sacrament for themselves, but women cannot. If it matters that we take the sacrament regularly, it seems to me that it needs to be available to everyone regardless of their geographic location.

[Veritaserum]

In the initiatory, think about the queen and priestess part. Unto whom are you to be a queen and priestess? In the endowment, think about whom you as a woman promise to obey vs whom the men promise to obey. Those are examples of doctrinal inequality.

[Heidi]

Thank you, Amira and Veritaserum, for clarifying the issue.

[maize]

My calling (if my gift of prophesy works out) is to be "quality control" inspector of the hot-tub/font. I have been imploring President Kimball to add water-jets as I'm sure they could not hurt conversion rates. Add ladies-pants, colorful shirts (sans-ties), some organic gardening, a few gays, and we could kind of loosen up the image. Don't you think? :D

 

Bill

 

 

Hey Bill, your baptismal service is all planned. My niece is being baptized next Sunday in a hotel swimming pool, and just so happens there's a hot tub right next to the pool--water jets and all. Come on over, we'll get you set up with some white clothes and you're good to go :D :D

[Amira]

Anyone see pants at church today? I didn't, but I didn't really expect to in my ward (although I'd hoped to).

[melbotoast]

I forgot to look, but didn't notice any. I wouldn't really expect to see many pants here though :)

[Elizabeth in MN]

Here is my story of wearing pants today. Sisters, my heart is so heavy today. I want to just curl up in a ball and cry.

 

 

Today I wore a nice dressy green shirt and black slacks to church, along with my best black flat shoes. It was my best church outfit, reflecting my reverence for Heavenly Father and my love of receiving the sacrament. Our weather here in southwestern Minnesota was in tune with the time of year - cold and snowy. I left my house when it was sixteen degrees out and was so thankful to have warm legs! If my car slid off the road I had boots in the car and would be able to dig myself out.

 

During my hour long drive to church I listened to Christmas music and sang along to warm up my pipes for singing at church.

 

Arriving just in time for services I made my way into the chapel. Our branch is small. It was quickly apparent that I was the only female in church in pants, and there were nor purple shirts or ties in sight. I hadn't expected anything else.

 

The sacrament was blessed and passed with our normal level of reverence. Singing was a bit confused as one song was posted but we sang another.

 

With this great foundation everything went downhill.

 

I had thought there would be some sort of observation of the horrific events in Connecticut. They were never mentioned, not even in prayer. Everything from the opening prayer to the ending prayer was male-led. Not a single sister was called on to talk. The talks were all about the importance of serving a mission and the recent age change. The first talk was by a recently returned missionary and fairly standard fair. Not a single mention of mothers, sisters, his fiancee, or sister missionaries was made. The second talk was given by our Elders Quorum President. He, too, spoke of his mission. This was when I wanted to cry because this brother talked about how, when he returned, his ward bishop kept introducing him to sister returned missionaries. He said, and I quote, "I didn't want to date or marry any of these sister missionaries because they were all pass their prime." No one laughed, no shifting of uncomfortable feet. Just silent agreement. In my heart I thanked Heavenly Father that my twelve year old daughter was not with us. The last talk was by our branch president He got up and said that he was happy to have married a returned missionary sister. Hope fluttered in my heart. Our president went on to talk about his mission and how he reminded himself as he tracted in the rain that each time he did so his future wife would be prettier and prettier.

 

Not smarter.

Not more faithful.

Not kinder.

Heck, not even wealthier.

Prettier.

I wondered if this is all that matters for LDS women - that we were pretty.

My tears stayed firmly at bay.

 

After our chapel time we had Sunday School, normally a class I looked forward to. Our teacher, the Elders Quorum President, normally makes the lessons interesting. Today we covered Moroni 6. The whole chapter was covered under the idea of how the LDS church is following Book of Mormon doctrine in how the church operates. We were told that this chapter gets taught often in Priesthood meetings because of the relevance to the brothers and their duties. My heart sank further and further as each subject covered was something that men were only allowed to do. Nothing that was talked about was something that sisters are allowed to do in the LDS church.

 

At this point I was wondering if my branch, the stake, or even the whole church had been told to up the talk of men in reaction to women wearing pants to church.

 

Relief Society never met. Instead we had a meeting about the new way the teens are going to be taught come January. My brain was on overload trying to figure out what was going on but it did eventually kick in to wonder why all the branch needed to hear about this when there are few teens that attend (maybe two girls and a male or two).

 

I drove away with a heavy heart switching between hurt and anger. The whole experience underlined why I stay at home and study the scriptures, watch church services on TV, and rarely go to chapel or branch events. My mind reflected on how much I feel like a leaper in my branch. I am the only single mother. In my eight years of membership I have never had a Home or Visiting teacher assigned to me. Members work on evangelizing my daughter, but I get largely ignored. Today five people spoke to me, four in passing.

 

Despite all of this, I believe the church to be true. I believe that our Heavenly Father called on Joseph Smith as a prophet. But somewhere along the way many of our brothers and sisters have lost their way and are ignorant of that fact.

[Amira]

Elizabeth, I am so sorry. That would have been awful, especially when you started off so optimistically. I wish there were something I could do for you.

[melbotoast]

:grouphug: Elizabeth :grouphug: It sounds like if I were in your ward, I might be wearing pants too! We've always lived in great wards, but I've heard enough stories to know that we've been lucky.

[Elizabeth in MN]

Elizabeth, I am so sorry. That would have been awful, especially when you started off so optimistically. I wish there were something I could do for you.

 

Thanks, sweetie. Right now my family dreams of moving to Utah. Me so I can have a larger ward with more diversity, my Mom because the Episcopal church there is very active, and my dd because "there is an In N Out burger in Salt Lake City". We all agree we miss Thai food : D

 

I'm like a pitbull with my testimony - my branch won't take it from me.

[Xuzi]

Elizabeth I'm so, so sorry. :( I hope you're able to move into a better ward/branch soon, because what you described just seems so... I don't know. I guess I've been incredibly lucky to have lived in wards where women were valued not just on looks, where working out of the home, or being a single mom, wasn't something that raised many eyebrows (and typically only raised the eyebrows of the older generation when it did). There are so many blended families in my ward here in WA I've lost count. There are families who have gay children, who have children or spouses who suffer from addictions, who are poor, who are rich, who live "off the grid", who have lost loved ones to suicide, etc, etc. The whole gamut of human experience is embodied in my ward, and I think it's helped tremendously to ward off the danger of assuming everyone is the same and thinks the same things, just because we share a belief in the Gospel.

 

Many hugs to you.

[Xuzi]

Oh, and just as an FYI: I didn't wear pants today, but I did wear purple. But I wear purple a lot, so I doubt anybody attributed it to anything.

[Heidi]

Hugs to you Elizabeth! Sorry you had a bad day.

 

No one wore pants. The relief society president spoke in sacrament about Mary and how she must have felt to be the mother of the Son of God. It was beautiful.

 

I have never, in 23 years of membership, felt less as a woman at church or in the gospel.

[sewingmama]

Our president went on to talk about his mission and how he reminded himself as he tracted in the rain that each time he did so his future wife would be prettier and prettier.

 

 

I wouldn't read too much into that besides the teller just being dumb and not thinking. I've heard that "joke" about a billion times from every missionary that ever returned - it's not funny but the men think it is.

 

I didn't even go to church on Sunday and I got released as the Nursery Leader - I am now officially an outcast. Teaching nursery was thier last ditch effort to get me to come :laugh: Didn't encourage me much when the only kid in the class was my own :glare:

 

I struggle a lot with the male heirarchy in the church. Not so much because of the postions they hold but I get tired of their bias towards women. I've had too many bishops tell me that my problems in my marriage would be solved if I just "went to the doctor and got some anti-depressants" :glare: No mention of how my DH could change. I had another tell me "I needed to get a job and start pulling my weight in the marriage" :confused1: because you know...looking after three babies all day was such a free ride.

 

My VT's sent me a Christmas card with a scripture about how the poor and meek shall inherit the earth" - not sure what that was supposed to mean - loose the pride and come to church or don't worry about being poor in the end you'll get everything :confused1: It was a weird Christmas message anyway.

 

Our branch is very tiny and very poor. People wear whatever they want because they truly have no better. I love it because I can let my DD wear sleeveless dresses without getting the stinkeye. :laugh:

[DianeW88]

I'm sorry, Elizabeth...I wish you could have come to my ward today. We had all women speakers. Two female youth speakers and me and my young women's presidency. We spoke on next year's theme...."Stand ye in holy places and be not moved." I thought we did an excellent job. :D Anyway, I hope you can move to Utah...we're pretty fun here.

[Veritaserum]

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

 

The only female pants in our ward were worn by members of my family. I wish more people understood the pain of being marginalized as you've outlined here. I don't think we'll see marked change until people do.

 

ETA: If you do move to Utah, try Salt Lake City proper. Provo is not diverse and people tend to really not understand women's issues. The most awful, hateful anti-pants comments have come from Utah neighbors and friends. :(

 

Here is my story of wearing pants today. Sisters, my heart is so heavy today. I want to just curl up in a ball and cry.

 

 

Today I wore a nice dressy green shirt and black slacks to church, along with my best black flat shoes. It was my best church outfit, reflecting my reverence for Heavenly Father and my love of receiving the sacrament. Our weather here in southwestern Minnesota was in tune with the time of year - cold and snowy. I left my house when it was sixteen degrees out and was so thankful to have warm legs! If my car slid off the road I had boots in the car and would be able to dig myself out.

 

During my hour long drive to church I listened to Christmas music and sang along to warm up my pipes for singing at church.

 

Arriving just in time for services I made my way into the chapel. Our branch is small. It was quickly apparent that I was the only female in church in pants, and there were nor purple shirts or ties in sight. I hadn't expected anything else.

 

The sacrament was blessed and passed with our normal level of reverence. Singing was a bit confused as one song was posted but we sang another.

 

With this great foundation everything went downhill.

 

I had thought there would be some sort of observation of the horrific events in Connecticut. They were never mentioned, not even in prayer. Everything from the opening prayer to the ending prayer was male-led. Not a single sister was called on to talk. The talks were all about the importance of serving a mission and the recent age change. The first talk was by a recently returned missionary and fairly standard fair. Not a single mention of mothers, sisters, his fiancee, or sister missionaries was made. The second talk was given by our Elders Quorum President. He, too, spoke of his mission. This was when I wanted to cry because this brother talked about how, when he returned, his ward bishop kept introducing him to sister returned missionaries. He said, and I quote, "I didn't want to date or marry any of these sister missionaries because they were all pass their prime." No one laughed, no shifting of uncomfortable feet. Just silent agreement. In my heart I thanked Heavenly Father that my twelve year old daughter was not with us. The last talk was by our branch president He got up and said that he was happy to have married a returned missionary sister. Hope fluttered in my heart. Our president went on to talk about his mission and how he reminded himself as he tracted in the rain that each time he did so his future wife would be prettier and prettier.

 

Not smarter.

Not more faithful.

Not kinder.

Heck, not even wealthier.

Prettier.

I wondered if this is all that matters for LDS women - that we were pretty.

My tears stayed firmly at bay.

 

After our chapel time we had Sunday School, normally a class I looked forward to. Our teacher, the Elders Quorum President, normally makes the lessons interesting. Today we covered Moroni 6. The whole chapter was covered under the idea of how the LDS church is following Book of Mormon doctrine in how the church operates. We were told that this chapter gets taught often in Priesthood meetings because of the relevance to the brothers and their duties. My heart sank further and further as each subject covered was something that men were only allowed to do. Nothing that was talked about was something that sisters are allowed to do in the LDS church.

 

At this point I was wondering if my branch, the stake, or even the whole church had been told to up the talk of men in reaction to women wearing pants to church.

 

Relief Society never met. Instead we had a meeting about the new way the teens are going to be taught come January. My brain was on overload trying to figure out what was going on but it did eventually kick in to wonder why all the branch needed to hear about this when there are few teens that attend (maybe two girls and a male or two).

 

I drove away with a heavy heart switching between hurt and anger. The whole experience underlined why I stay at home and study the scriptures, watch church services on TV, and rarely go to chapel or branch events. My mind reflected on how much I feel like a leaper in my branch. I am the only single mother. In my eight years of membership I have never had a Home or Visiting teacher assigned to me. Members work on evangelizing my daughter, but I get largely ignored. Today five people spoke to me, four in passing.

 

Despite all of this, I believe the church to be true. I believe that our Heavenly Father called on Joseph Smith as a prophet. But somewhere along the way many of our brothers and sisters have lost their way and are ignorant of that fact.

[maize]

Thanks, sweetie. Right now my family dreams of moving to Utah. Me so I can have a larger ward with more diversity, my Mom because the Episcopal church there is very active, and my dd because "there is an In N Out burger in Salt Lake City". We all agree we miss Thai food : D

 

I'm like a pitbull with my testimony - my branch won't take it from me.

 

 

:grouphug: Elizabeth, I'm sorry you were so let down today. Those talks would have had me raising my eyebrows for sure--and thanking heaven that not all LDS men are so shallow in their thinking about what makes a good wife! Actually, the first inkling I had that my future dh might have some real interest in me was when I told him I had received my mission call and he said enthusiastically "I've always wanted to marry a returned missionary--they seem so much more serious about life!"

 

Honestly, when church members say or do things that make me cringe I think of Moroni's advice in Mormon 9:31 " Condemn me not because of mine ^aimperfection, neither my father, because of his imperfection, neither them who have written before him; but rather give thanks unto God that he hath made manifest unto you our imperfections, that ye may learn to be more wise than we have been."

[melbotoast]

I love it because I can let my DD wear sleeveless dresses without getting the stinkeye. :laugh:

DD wore a sleeveless dress today! :ohmy:

 

Honestly, when church members say or do things that make me cringe I think of Moroni's advice in Mormon 9:31 " Condemn me not because of mine ^aimperfection, neither my father, because of his imperfection, neither them who have written before him; but rather give thanks unto God that he hath made manifest unto you our imperfections, that ye may learn to be more wise than we have been."

 

I like Ether 12:37. "And it came to pass that the Lord said unto me: If they have not charity it mattereth not unto thee, thou hast been faithful; wherefore, thy garments shall be made clean. And because thou hast seen thy weakness thou shalt be made strong, even unto the sitting down in the place which I have prepared in the mansions of my Father."

[Elizabeth in MN]

in my ward here in WA

 

Guess where I was living when I joined! Yes, wonderful, urban downtown Wenatchee. I MISS that ward so much. There was a group of single mothers who looked out for each other, traded child care duties, and were just plain great. My RS president from there warned me about becoming a Midwestern LDS person as she had only heard stuff like what I just posted. I couldn't stay in Wenatchee due to the air quality.

 

I feel a lot better coming here and seeing that there are great LDS members and that sometimes a branch/ward just gets stuff wrong. I know it's not the whole of the church. There are issues that need addressing but we're getting there.

[blondeviolin]

I didn't wear pants today. I don't have the same opinions of inequality within the church, though. I feel equal. The same? No. But equal.

 

Our ward does have some priesthood holders that rub me the wrong way. One in particular is so caught up in his ability to hold the priesthood and his calling that it's hard to work past that. I work with him REGULARLY in my calling. Unfortunately, this man isn't changing his tune on his own anytime soon. In some ways, because I work so directly with him, I have learned that it is almost my job to TEACH him. And not just teach him about my specific calling and his, but really open his eyes to how effective sisters can be. To teach him the proper way to advocate for those he serves. To teach him what it feels like to be pushed to the side and to not allow that to happen because I am female. Fortunately for me, my bishop is a wonderful man who is willing to work with me and him as well, even if its not the most traditional of ways. And, I'm also not one to be run over without a tantrum. :D

[gardenmom5]

Thanks, sweetie. Right now my family dreams of moving to Utah. Me so I can have a larger ward with more diversity, my Mom because the Episcopal church there is very active, and my dd because "there is an In N Out burger in Salt Lake City". We all agree we miss Thai food : D I'm like a pitbull with my testimony - my branch won't take it from me.

 

souvlakis. first place we stop, and the last place we stop. slc does have good junk food.

 

I've heard those same comments you shared, but they have always been followed up with how they grew up and had reality checks about what was actually important. the stories you shared reminded me of one missionary who lived with us - many, many moons ago. I was expressing my opinion to dh that one day some woman was going to punch him in the mouth. dh just commented it would probably be his future wife. (dh agreed he'd deserve it.) believe it or not, the guy was from the washington DC area.

[thebacabunch]

I think it's nice to have a thread here for talking about gospel issues and a lot of these posts have really made me think. Just remember that the temple ceremony is sacred and we shouldn't be posting things that are meant for our ears and hearts to hear in that sacred place only.

[maize]

I like Ether 12:37. "And it came to pass that the Lord said unto me: If they have not charity it mattereth not unto thee, thou hast been faithful; wherefore, thy garments shall be made clean. And because thou hast seen thy weakness thou shalt be made strong, even unto the sitting down in the place which I have prepared in the mansions of my Father."

 

 

I love Moroni's awareness of and humility concerning his own human imperfection and weakness. He both encourages us that our weakness can be made strong through Christ, and reminds us not to judge others for their weakness. Ether 12:27 was my first favorite scripture as a teenager--I always felt like I was failing in so many ways, and was comforted by the thought that we are meant to have weaknesses and if we continue in faith those weaknesses could become strengths. I used to think that meant we would not be weak in those areas anymore, more recently I am thinking that the weaknesses themselves are our strengths, that the Lord will use them for our good.

[TKDmom]

Here is my story of wearing pants today. Sisters, my heart is so heavy today. I want to just curl up in a ball and cry.

 

 

I typed up a long response, then deleted it, typed it again, and deleted it again...so I think I just need to say... :grouphug: :grouphug: I'm so sorry you had a crummy experience.

 

You can come visit us. :D

 

 

Ooh...and my husband served part of his mission in Wenatchee...how long ago were you baptized??

[TKDmom]

I love Moroni's awareness of and humility concerning his own human imperfection and weakness. He both encourages us that our weakness can be made strong through Christ, and reminds us not to judge others for their weakness. Ether 12:27 was my first favorite scripture as a teenager--I always felt like I was failing in so many ways, and was comforted by the thought that we are meant to have weaknesses and if we continue in faith those weaknesses could become strengths. I used to think that meant we would not be weak in those areas anymore, more recently I am thinking that the weaknesses themselves are our strengths, that the Lord will use them for our good.

 

This scripture has recently become my favorite, too. I discovered (rediscovered?) the first half of the verse that talks about how God gave us our weaknesses and how if we come to him in humility, he will show us those weaknesses. It has helped me soo much to stop beating up on myself when I fall short of my expectations of myself (like every 5 minutes. :p), because I realized that He created me with those imperfections. And he's not going to condemn me for them anymore than I would yell at my toddler for falling down when she was learning to walk.

[dangermom]

I saw two women wearing pants to church Sunday (one jeans, one tunic/stretch pants) but I'm quite sure they were wearing pants because they often do so, not because they had heard anything about the pants thing (I'm not sure anyone besides me heard about it). I forgot to think about it until RS in the third hour, so I have no idea if anyone was wearing purple.

[nrg]

I did not wear pants or purple and did not see any other sisters doing so in our ward yesterday. We had talks from two sister missionaries from our town's other ward and Spanish branch, and a missionary talk from our ward mission leader. It was a truly inspirational meeting. Although my politics differ from those of the majority of the members of my ward, and I am rather a different sort than most of the women, on no level, doctrinally, socially, or personally have I ever felt marginalized. I love my role in the gospel and fell blessed not to have suffered the experiences I have read here. I do recognize that the leadership skills of the Bishop and his counselors play a large part in the general culture of a ward in all aspects and wonder about the situation described above. Thank you all for starting and participating in this group.

[linguistmama]

:grouphug: Elizabeth :grouphug: