How did you choose the colleges "in the middle"?

[Hoggirl]

Ds is a junior. He has some nice academic stats so far. He definitely has a couple of state schools he wants to apply to and a couple of BIG reaches he wants to apply to. But, how do we choose schools "in the middle"? What sorts of things do you look for? Should the amount of merit money available be the driving factor in choosing the in-between schools? I struggle with the idea of paying big dollars for a private school or an OOS school that is in the middle.

 

So, what factors do you look at? Ds is unsure of what he wants to study, so it's not like we can really look at specific programming.

[Gwen in VA]

Once we had our top schools and our (financial+acceptance) safety schools, our kids chose middle schools that

 

1) they were still interested in going to -- the schools had something to recommend them. (For ds it was a certain great books program; for dd it was a particular major that was very unusual).

 

2) they had enough merit aid (possibly) available so that they might financially be an option. We discouraged our kids from applying to schools that they were not gung-ho about if there was no possibility of serious merit aid.

 

For financial reasons, both of our kids ended up at their not-top-choice school, though the school they ended up at was higher ranked than all but one of their preferred schools. The money made the difference..........

 

One piece of advice from the BTDT perspective -- if you can't imagine your child going to a school or your child can't imagine going to a school, do NOT apply. That sounds stupid, but somehow in the rush of snap decisions, both of my older two ended up applying to schools that they couldn't have imagined attending.

[AK_Mom4]

I had DD go and surf thru the search engine on CollegeBoard.com for schools. This let her put in a pretty board variety of criteria and get a list of schools that she could check out the websites/admissions info and look up on collegeconfidential.

[Kareni]

Since generous financial aid was necessary for my daughter, all but one of the ten colleges to which she applied were known for meeting 100% (or close to it) of the student's need. (The tenth college was added to her list after she attended a conference there and liked the campus. That particular college's financial aid offer contained $10,000 more in loans than any of of her other offers.) All of the colleges had adequate to excellent (most were at least good) departments in her field of interest.

 

Regards,

Kareni

[Hoggirl]

As of today, we do not have "need." We have one ds and have saved since birth. Lord only knows what tomorrow holds, but as of today, we could send him anywhere he could get in. I am struggling with how to factor in the cost of middle schools b/c we *could* afford them. But, while I wouldn't struggle paying full price for tippy top schools, I do sort of struggle with paying a full sticker price for a lesser school when the price differential isn't that great, kwim??

Edited September 22, 2012 by Hoggirl

[Starr]

Look for schools with merit scholarships. Often these are determined by test scores.

[creekland]

As of today, we do not have "need." We have one ds and have saved since birth. Lord only knows what tomorrow holds, but as of today, we could send him anywhere he could get in. I am struggling with how to factor in the cost of middle schools b/c we *could* afford them. But, while I wouldn't struggle paying full price for tippy top schools, I do sort if struggle with paying a full sticker price fir a lesser school when the price differential isn't that great, kwim??

 

IMO any school in the Top 50 - Top 100 is a good school overall (since you don't know about specific majors yet). Sometimes the "best" school for a particular major or intended path doesn't even make the Top 100. An example of this would be Hawaii's UH at Manoa when youngest wanted tropical ethnobotany (he's since changed his mind). EVERY single prof we talked with at higher ranked schools mentioned that program as #1 in its field back when we asked...

 

Therefore, I personally don't see where Top "Whatever" is always top of the pack.

 

When I look at where people have degrees from for actual jobs they are happy with (both locally and lists online), few need "Tippy Top" schools overall in their resume. The vast majority "succeed" from elsewhere, though one does tend to get to "higher" jobs from those Top 50 - Top 100 (pending desired field) than the other 3900 colleges out there. There are some colleges I wouldn't send my kids to even if they were free. I need to see multiple grads out there doing well.

 

Then, when I think about $$, the money one would spend for a non-merit aid school vs a merit aid school can be VERY significant - up to a quarter of a million $$ (not always that high, but up to that). If we were to save that $$ by not spending it on undergrad, then it's there to use for grad school, starting our kids out in life once they graduate, or even taking a huge family trip when we have grandkids (probably more than one trip). There are countless "good" ways it could be spent.

 

We ended up with the firm belief that non-merit aid schools simply weren't worth the cost for us and didn't apply to any of them. The bottom line is my older two boys had stats to get merit aid and they could get a good education from schools that offered merit aid. For oldest, this wasn't even a Top 100 school, but it was one always mentioned related to what he wanted to do and he seems to be on a good path to succeed. For middle this ended up being the current #33 ranked school. He loves it there. There are many, many successful grads from there. I wouldn't change a thing.

 

Some people prefer to pay for perceived prestige. We opted not to do so. To each our own.

 

I suppose in a way it's similar to sports. Would you pay full price to play on football team A when football team B offered you scholarship money to go there? One probably would if Team A were usually in the Top 25 and Team B seldom won a game (difference in coaching), but what if both teams were often in the Top 25? What if both usually send grads on to the pros? Is there really a difference then? A difference worth up to 250K?

 

To find those schools? We looked at schools that did offer merit aid and looked to see what alumni thought of the place combined with what they were doing. We made sure the "fit" worked, though middle son was far more flexible in where he felt he could fit in. There are many schools in the Top 50 - 100 that offer merit aid. It's usually competitive, but it's worth competing for.

 

If your youngun knows roughly where he wants to live/work, look for schools kind of near that area (within a couple of states). IME employers do give a preference for schools they know about locally + alumni are more prone to hire other alumni - esp in an economy where there are oodles of applicants for any particular job.

[creekland]

Consider this list (there are some really good schools on it):

 

http://www.collegexpress.com/lists/list/where-you-dont-need-to-be-needy-to-get-financial-aid/347/

 

It's not totally up to date as I know Franklin & Marshall stopped giving out merit aid 2 years ago... but many of the others I see on there do have good competitive merit aid.

[Miss Marple]

Do you think your son might end up going to a professional school after his undergraduate degree? If so, would you anticipate paying for that as well? That would definitely factor into my decision. Also, certain schools feed into certain professional schools more easily so that would be a consideration as well.

 

None of my boys are going the LAC route. We were lucky to live in a state that has one of the top Petroleum Engineering schools in the nation. Tuition was relatively inexpensive and the scholarship opportunity was excellent. Son #2 is in transition right now. He has discovered that the job market for the degree he wanted isn't so good - schools say the outlook is rosy, but the graduates say otherwise. So he is looking at a postgraduate study of some sort. With 2 more to go after #2 graduates, $$$ is definitely an issue.

[Hoggirl]

Thanks, all. I do think we would have to get *some* merit money to justify a $50,000 per year middle school.

 

Ds may want to major in music. I really think he would like to do a double degree with a BM and "something else," but I have no idea what the something else would be. Bard, Oberlin, and the like aren't options because they are in cold places. :tongue_smilie: And, as LACs, I am not sure what he would pair them with anyway. Historically, he has thought he might have an interest in engineering, but I just don't see it. Yes, he is good at math. But, he's never been a builder kid, a how-does-it-work, or a take-it-apart kid. I think he is FINALLY understanding he cannot do music performance and engineering together! I don't think a BA in music would work for him unless there was some sort of performance emphasis, since what he likes is to perform. It's just all. so. hard. If he is going to go the music route, he will have to have auditions ready slightly more than a year from now.

 

Please don't misundertsand - I realize these are good problems to have! He has many options b/c of his academics and because of our financial resources. But, we do want to be reasonable. I have no idea if he will do graduate/professional school. How can one know that as a junior in high school?

 

Hopefully, some of the middle schools will offer him some merit aid. I suppose time will tell. Unfortunately, our state flagship is rather stingy. They give about 75 fellowships each year, but they are extremely competitive. We have a lottery scholarship which they give to practically everyone. He would likely get more than that, but not tons. And, it's not like our state flagship is all that great anyway. It's certainly adequate, and we have heard good things about the Honors College. I don't know if he wants to stay that close to home either.

 

Sigh. It's going to be a long year and a half.

[Heather in VA]

Consider this list (there are some really good schools on it):

 

http://www.collegexpress.com/lists/list/where-you-dont-need-to-be-needy-to-get-financial-aid/347/

 

It's not totally up to date as I know Franklin & Marshall stopped giving out merit aid 2 years ago... but many of the others I see on there do have good competitive merit aid.

 

This is a very nice list of good schools but I really don't think it's accurate when it comes to aid. UVA for example is almost exclusively need-based aid and the figures they give (1150 SAT and B+ average) would not even be assured of getting accepted let alone getting any merit aid. But they are great schools and some do give merit aid.

 

Heather

[creekland]

This is a very nice list of good schools but I really don't think it's accurate when it comes to aid. UVA for example is almost exclusively need-based aid and the figures they give (1150 SAT and B+ average) would not even be assured of getting accepted let alone getting any merit aid. But they are great schools and some do give merit aid.

 

Heather

 

I agree. They need to break the list up into 2 categories, one for the lower stats and one for the higher stats. UVA does have Jefferson awards that provide significant merit aid (full tuition I believe, if not full rides), but they, like many top schools, are very competitive. (Technically, the Jefferson awards come from a private group, but they are for use at UVA only, so...) The OP's student would be competitive. Someone with an 1150 M/CR would not.

 

But the list does give a starting point to find colleges which offer merit aid and have good reps. Then more research is needed for each school they like to see what the specifics are.

 

WUSTL, U Rochester, Vanderbilt, UVA, USC (CA), Case, Emory, and some others fit the bill for being considered "top schools" offering merit aid for top stats, but not 1150...

 

I wish they would make the list into two so it could be more accurate.

[Hoggirl]

I wish the list had a demarcation between those places that offer merit $$$ on a clear cut basis and those that offer it on a competitive basis. I imagine more are competitive than not.

 

I like places like Baylor and Alabama where it is clear what one qualifies for.

 

I can't imagine ds being competitive for any merit money at Vanderbilt. Not anymore. I think their admitted students last year had a middle 50 percent ACT range of 33-35. So, while he would be in range for Vanderbilt, I don't think he would be competitive for merit money. I also don't think it would be a sure thing he would get in. I would consider places like WUSTL and Vandy to be "tippy top." I think it's getting to the point where anything in the top twenty is a "lottery." I think one has to hit about #30 or so in the rankings to be able to rely on published stats re: admission to the school. Otherwise, I think there are just far too many qualified applicants.

 

We attended an information session at Stanford this summer before ds started his EPGY class. Last year, they had 33,600 applicants. They accepted 2,400 to fill a class of 1,800. The person running the session said that 80% of their applicants were academically qualified. So, it's not like a bunch of kids are applying willy-nilly just to see what might happen.

[Heather in VA]

I agree. They need to break the list up into 2 categories, one for the lower stats and one for the higher stats. UVA does have Jefferson awards that provide significant merit aid (full tuition I believe, if not full rides), but they, like many top schools, are very competitive. (Technically, the Jefferson awards come from a private group, but they are for use at UVA only, so...) The OP's student would be competitive. Someone with an 1150 M/CR would not.

 

But the list does give a starting point to find colleges which offer merit aid and have good reps. Then more research is needed for each school they like to see what the specifics are.

 

WUSTL, U Rochester, Vanderbilt, UVA, USC (CA), Case, Emory, and some others fit the bill for being considered "top schools" offering merit aid for top stats, but not 1150...

 

I wish they would make the list into two so it could be more accurate.

 

Yes. I agree. Two lists would have been more helpful - having this list that says these schools give merit aid is pretty deceiving. To me a school like UVA who has a bit of merit aid they give to a few students is not a school that gives merit aid. I knew a girl who got into Harvard who got no merit aid from UVA. Of course I knew another girl who got into 3 ivy league schools with merit assistance who didn't even get into UVA because of the quotas so it's just weird.

 

Heather

[creekland]

 

I would consider places like WUSTL and Vandy to be "tippy top." I think it's getting to the point where anything in the top twenty is a "lottery." I think one has to hit about #30 or so in the rankings to be able to rely on published stats re: admission to the school. Otherwise, I think there are just far too many qualified applicants.

 

 

 

:iagree: I was thinking your guy would be in the top 25%... I might be recalling incorrectly, but yes, it's that top 25% who can be competitive. I also wasn't sure what you considered "top." Some only consider Ivies and MIT/Stanford to be there... To me, Top 50 or so is top (after all, there are 4000+ colleges). For the top schools admission isn't guaranteed, nor is merit aid, but when they want a student, they can offer nice aid at times. Anywhere in the Top 100 usually has a name (prestige) worth something.

 

 

Of course I knew another girl who got into 3 ivy league schools with merit assistance

 

Heather

 

??? I don't know of any Ivy that gives merit awards. Which three do? (Is Cornell one? They are a little different from the other Ivies.) I've only seen/heard of need-based aid from the Ivies. We didn't end up applying to any for that reason. They simply weren't worth the cost to us if/when our finances get back to normal economy-wise. Even a small 5 digit merit award saves a bit over 4 years comparatively.

 

We did opt to go with a smaller merit award (and more need-based aid) with URoc than what we could have gotten with Alabama (full merit) due to our belief that URoc was a better school for what my guy wanted. Right now we're paying less for URoc with all aid combined. They gave my guy a nice package. Next year we may end up paying a little more as our finances improve, but, we think it's worth paying a little more so I have no regrets. The merit aid he has will still be a savings over full-pay at an all need based school like Ivies. That's a call every individual has to make.

[chepyl]

What are you considering "middle" schools that you don't want to pay for. I think you have to look at the major and the ranking for majors over the schools in general. I went to a staye school, but it was in the top 10 for my major at the time. I think your son needs to have some Idea of what he wants to study before you start ruling schools out.

[Hoggirl]

What are you considering "middle" schools that you don't want to pay for. I think you have to look at the major and the ranking for majors over the schools in general. I went to a staye school, but it was in the top 10 for my major at the time. I think your son needs to have some Idea of what he wants to study before you start ruling schools out.

 

I'm not saying I don't want to pay for them. I am just saying that, where I probably wouldn't struggle shelling out $55,000 - $60,000 a year for Stanford, I might struggle paying $40,000 - $45,000 a year for somewhere that is ranked, say between 50 and 100. I'm just not sure that a private school or an OOS school is worth that much more than a state flagship.

 

Ds is primarily ruling schools out based on climate and size. I wish he knew exactly what he wanted to study, but he doesn't. It's hard to know such things at such an early age - at least for some.

 

Yes, Creekland, ds should be in the top 25% of applicants anywhere he applies, but with schools whose top 25% of admitted students only have ACT scores of 35 - 36 (at least this is what was published by Vandy last year), he isn't. Ds has a friend who graduated from his school last year who was very similar to your ds. 34 on the ACT, National Merit Finalist, close to an unweighted 4.0, APs, etc. and he did not get into WUSTL. He was going for architecture, which may have made it even tougher. They showed plenty of demonstrated interest by visiting at least two times - maybe three??? Interestly, a family friend's son graduated from high school three (maybe four) years ago with identical stats to this kid and got full tuition at WUSTL. I realize there are other factors, but both of these kids kind of "had it all," yet look at the different outcomes!!! The competition is fierce at the top.

[creekland]

Ds has a friend who graduated from his school last year who was very similar to your ds. 34 on the ACT, National Merit Finalist, close to an unweighted 4.0, APs, etc. and he did not get into WUSTL. He was going for architecture, which may have made it even tougher. They showed plenty of demonstrated interest by visiting at least two times - maybe three??? Interestly, a family friend's son graduated from high school three (maybe four) years ago with identical stats to this kid and got full tuition at WUSTL. I realize there are other factors, but both of these kids kind of "had it all," yet look at the different outcomes!!! The competition is fierce at the top.

 

And this is what pretty much sums it all up. The competition is tough. Some will get handsome offerings. Some can get rejected. It's difficult to know why or how decisions are made. However, for those interested, you can't "win" if you aren't in the race. You might have a shot if you are in it (IF the school offers merit aid - some do not).

[Barbara H]

I'm not saying I don't want to pay for them. I am just saying that, where I probably wouldn't struggle shelling out $55,000 - $60,000 a year for Stanford, I might struggle paying $40,000 - $45,000 a year for somewhere that is ranked, say between 50 and 100. I'm just not sure that a private school or an OOS school is worth that much more than a state flagship.

 

 

The state flagship may well be better.

 

Rank can be a deceptive and not particularly helpful piece of information. What's ultimately most important to the student experience may not be well reflected by rank. I'm talking about factors such as access to undergraduate research opportunities, smaller class size, supportive faculty, individual attention, support with scholarship and graduate applications... There are some very highly ranked schools that have a good "name" where students really aren't going to get individual attention or support. And, some more mid-ranked schools that may not have the prestige name, but probably offer a better student experience.

[Nan in Mass]

I'm confused. If he could go anywhere at all, he would pick a big reach school, right? And the state schools are his if-I-don't-get-accepted-anywhere-else schools. He probably won't get into the big reach schools, if they really are a big reach. That leaves him with one of those middle schools being THE school, the one in which he winds up. Wouldn't it make sense to pick some right-for-him schools as middle schools? And if he can't go to a big reach school, why would you be unhappy to pay for the best school that he can get into? Obviously you want it to be a school that will actually eduate him, but it seems like he would have to be a very rare student only to be able to benefit from a Stanford education?

 

If he doesn't know what he wants to do, then picking a size is a good start. He needs to decide whether he wants a big university with all its resources or a small lac with its individual attention. He can think about which regions are of interest. Then he can look at the numbers. Is it all in-state students or are there many out-of-state students? Out-of-state students give the student population breadth of outlook. How many students live on campus? If many live off campus, the campus may be dead on the weekends. What is the retention rate? That gives you some indication of how happy the students are with their education and also tells you something about the admissions policy. Is it a let-anyone-try school or is it a only-let-in-those-who-will-succeed school? What is the 4-year graduation rate? The 5-year? That gives you some indication of how easy it is to sign up for the classes you need to graduate. Some schools don't offer necessary classes every semester. Look to see if the II classes are offered in the fall and the I classes are offered in the spring. And check to see if the classes actually ran because classes offered sometimes don't have enough students to run. What is the minimum to run a class? (I think it is something like 12 at our community college.) Are there honours classes? Are there lots of general education requirements or can you get away with never taking another English class if you so desire? Is there a language requirement? Are the students encouraged to do research projects? Work with profs? Travel? Take a semester abroad? Do internships? Then you can start looking at atmosphere. How competative is the school? What is the grading policy? Do the students collaborate or do they steal papers to keep their classmates from succeeding? Is the school more hands-on or more academic? How big are the classes? Are study groups common? How much tutoring is available? What are the dorms like? Is the atmosphere conservative or liberal? How active are the students in the governing of the school? Are there lots of frats? Is the campus very spread out? What is public transportation like? Do the profs eat on campus with the students? Do they take the students on field trips or invite them to their house for dinner? What sort of concerts and plays are offered to the students? What sorts of clubs? Try reading the school newspaper. Visit and talk to the students about what they are studying and what they like best about the school. Ask them how easy it is to get hold of their profs? Are there lots of office hours and are the profs there during office hours? Obviously, this would all be easier if you were looking at a specific department, but it is still possible to get some sort of feel for the classes and the student body. Colleges often let high schoolers shadow a college student, sleeping in the dorms and attending some classes. Once you've narrowed the list down, you can begin visiting and then visiting/staying.

 

HTH

Nan

[Hoggirl]

I'm confused. If he could go anywhere at all, he would pick a big reach school, right? And the state schools are his if-I-don't-get-accepted-anywhere-else schools. He probably won't get into the big reach schools, if they really are a big reach. That leaves him with one of those middle schools being THE school, the one in which he winds up. Wouldn't it make sense to pick some right-for-him schools as middle schools? And if he can't go to a big reach school, why would you be unhappy to pay for the best school that he can get into? Obviously you want it to be a school that will actually eduate him, but it seems like he would have to be a very rare student only to be able to benefit from a Stanford education?

 

If he doesn't know what he wants to do, then picking a size is a good start. He needs to decide whether he wants a big university with all its resources or a small lac with its individual attention. He can think about which regions are of interest. Then he can look at the numbers. Is it all in-state students or are there many out-of-state students? Out-of-state students give the student population breadth of outlook. How many students live on campus? If many live off campus, the campus may be dead on the weekends. What is the retention rate? That gives you some indication of how happy the students are with their education and also tells you something about the admissions policy. Is it a let-anyone-try school or is it a only-let-in-those-who-will-succeed school? What is the 4-year graduation rate? The 5-year? That gives you some indication of how easy it is to sign up for the classes you need to graduate. Some schools don't offer necessary classes every semester. Look to see if the II classes are offered in the fall and the I classes are offered in the spring. And check to see if the classes actually ran because classes offered sometimes don't have enough students to run. What is the minimum to run a class? (I think it is something like 12 at our community college.) Are there honours classes? Are there lots of general education requirements or can you get away with never taking another English class if you so desire? Is there a language requirement? Are the students encouraged to do research projects? Work with profs? Travel? Take a semester abroad? Do internships? Then you can start looking at atmosphere. How competative is the school? What is the grading policy? Do the students collaborate or do they steal papers to keep their classmates from succeeding? Is the school more hands-on or more academic? How big are the classes? Are study groups common? How much tutoring is available? What are the dorms like? Is the atmosphere conservative or liberal? How active are the students in the governing of the school? Are there lots of frats? Is the campus very spread out? What is public transportation like? Do the profs eat on campus with the students? Do they take the students on field trips or invite them to their house for dinner? What sort of concerts and plays are offered to the students? What sorts of clubs? Try reading the school newspaper. Visit and talk to the students about what they are studying and what they like best about the school. Ask them how easy it is to get hold of their profs? Are there lots of office hours and are the profs there during office hours? Obviously, this would all be easier if you were looking at a specific department, but it is still possible to get some sort of feel for the classes and the student body. Colleges often let high schoolers shadow a college student, sleeping in the dorms and attending some classes. Once you've narrowed the list down, you can begin visiting and then visiting/staying.

 

HTH

Nan

 

Lots and lots of good advice here! Thank you!

 

I think most of the schools in the top 20 are big reach schools for just about everyone. Ds is in range for them test score and grade-wise. But with Stanford's admission rate hovering around 6% last year, yes, it is unlikely. But, I am all for him trying.

 

I see what you mean about one of the middle-tier schools being THE school. Of course, we are going to try to pick schools that would suit him!! Without a doubt. I just think it is hard to know how to factor in cost when we have the money to pay for it. It clearly needs to be a factor, but how does one weigh in on that? I have no idea if he will go to graduate school.

 

I guess my question, really, rather than picking middle schools is how do you make a determination once all the offers are "in"? I realize this is still a year and a half away. But, what does one do if you can go somewhere for free, somewhere for $60,000 per year that is your "dream school" or somewhere in the middle of those two extremes? I understand looking at all the factors that you listed, but how does the cost fit into the grand scheme of things?

 

I realize that many state flagships are excellent schools, but ours neither ranks high nor guarantees gobs of merit money as some do. Alabama, as an example, is far more generous with merit money than our state flagship ever thought about being.

 

Sorry. I am such a worrier by nature. I don't like to make mistakes, and this is just such a BIG decision for a 16-year-old to make (as a grade skip with a summer birthday, this is the age ds will be when he makes the decision). He has asked me to guide him toward smaller schools that might not be on his radar, and I am doing that. But it is ultimately his decision. If I truly have this mindset, then I should probably quit fretting about it.

[Nan in Mass]

I think this is a very individual decision which depends on one's family culture. My sister went to a small lac as an undeclared major. It was monstrously expensive (it still is). My family paid for it and they considered it worth every penny (as did my sister). I know people who shake their heads over the cost of their college education and say it was not worth the money, they could have received the equivalent education at the cheap state college. In some cases, the school is at fault - the education truly wasn't up to par and the non-academic advantages just weren't there. In other cases, I think it was the fault of the student. In some of those cases, I think the people are blind to the non-academic advantages of their education. In some cases, the advantages were there and the education was ok, but the people themselves weren't able to take advantage of what was offered, either because they were distracted or undisciplined or not ready. In some cases, the school was a bad fit and offered plenty of good things, just not the particular things or in the particular way that these students needed. Your job as parent/guidance councilor is to make sure the school offers a good education (both academic and non-academic), offers an education that will be of use to your student, and offers it in such a way that your student will be able to take advantage of it. This is where you have to ask, "Good for whom?" I consider our community college a good school. It offers enrichment activities suited to the student body - a constitution cake on the birthday of the US Constitution, people with clipboards helping students register to vote today, and on one occasion that my lake children won't ever forget - ice-less ice skating in the gym (very popular with the students from the Carribean). There are lots of remedial classes. They have very dedicated professors. They have a good nursing program and an ok engineering transfer program. Is it the right school for my sons? As high school homeschoolers, yes. After that, no. It would be better than nothing, certainly, possibly even adequate. It is inexpensive. But it wouldn't challenge them and help them to grow the way their 4-year college does/will (hopefully). And yet, if you put some of the Hatian nursing students in Stanford, they would not be happy - Stanford would seem a waste of money when they could have a cheaper education and afford better housing for their family back home. For them, it wouldn't be worth paying for Stanford. For my sons, it might not be worth paying for Stanford (assuming they were so overwhelmed that they couldn't take full advantage of the non-academic parts of a Stanford education - I don't know - perhaps they wouldn't be). Neither would it be worth just paying for cc for my students. Ok - so what I've just done is take your problem and run it out to the two extremes in an attempt to show you what you don't have to worry about. Somewhere out there are a bunch of middle schools that are well worth the cost for your particular student. Even if your student is Stanford material. Finding them might be a challenge, but I would be more worried about finding them than about whether they are worth paying for. If you find the right one, it will be worth paying for, I think. To some extent, one's education is what one makes of it. Your job is to offer encouragement and advice on how to do that, even if one isn't at Stanford.

 

I think I know what you are worried about. I grew up in a town with a college. I know what students went to that college. I know that the student population is apathetic and just going through the motions. I don't think any of that shows from the outside. I know it because I know people who tried to teach there and I was in high school with the students. I have a great fear of sending my children some place like that. I worry much more over what they would be missing academically rather than the price, but it is probably true that that very expensive private education is not worth any more than the reasonable state flagship. How do you tell the difference? I don't know. Talk to people. I think at this point, your best bet is to talk to lots of people and ask for suggestions, look at the statistics, visit lots of places, and hope your son falls in love with a place that looks like it has a reasonable chance of giving him a good education. I think you might find the question of whether it is worth paying for a middle college disappears as time goes on and you find some that appear to be a good fit for your son.

 

It might also help to think about what can be done with the money saved. Would he rather go to a less expensive or a less good but offering very good scholarships college and have money left over to travel or do expensive summer programs? Would he rather have the money to start his own business? It might turn out that the difference between an ok college that offers scholarships and a good college that doesn't just isn't enough to make it worth going with ok rather than good. Some of that will depend on what else could be done with the money. If it isn't enough money to do something useful with, then that answers your question right there. Just a thought...

 

Nan

Edited September 25, 2012 by Nan in Mass

[Hoggirl]

I always value your posts so much. You have given me many things to think about. :)

[Nan in Mass]

Well, I don't think I did a very good job explaining and I'm not sure I answered your question. I understand why you are worried and I think maybe when the time comes, all will be less worrisome, actually. : ) Hopefully, anyway. Good luck!

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I wish the list had a demarcation between those places that offer merit $$$ on a clear cut basis and those that offer it on a competitive basis. I imagine more are competitive than not.

 

I like places like Baylor and Alabama where it is clear what one qualifies for.

 

I can't imagine ds being competitive for any merit money at Vanderbilt. Not anymore. I think their admitted students last year had a middle 50 percent ACT range of 33-35. So, while he would be in range for Vanderbilt, I don't think he would be competitive for merit money. I also don't think it would be a sure thing he would get in. I would consider places like WUSTL and Vandy to be "tippy top." I think it's getting to the point where anything in the top twenty is a "lottery." I think one has to hit about #30 or so in the rankings to be able to rely on published stats re: admission to the school. Otherwise, I think there are just far too many qualified applicants.

 

We attended an information session at Stanford this summer before ds started his EPGY class. Last year, they had 33,600 applicants. They accepted 2,400 to fill a class of 1,800. The person running the session said that 80% of their applicants were academically qualified. So, it's not like a bunch of kids are applying willy-nilly just to see what might happen.

 

I heard some similar numbers for USNA. There is a huge drop from applications started to applications completed. (I personally think that a lot of folks start an application BEFORE they investigate the program or what makes a competitive candidate.) On the other hand, there were enough fully qualified candidates to fill something like 2-3 freshman classes.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Sometimes it's a matter of who else was applying that year or having growth or declines in a particular program at the school. (In other words, it's not always something about he particular student at all.)

[Gwen in VA]

how do you make a determination once all the offers are "in"? I realize this is still a year and a half away. But, what does one do if you can go somewhere for free, somewhere for $60,000 per year that is your "dream school" or somewhere in the middle of those two extremes? I understand looking at all the factors that you listed, but how does the cost fit into the grand scheme of things?

 

 

Don't borrow trouble! There's a pretty good chance that when the acceptances/offers are in, you and your child will just know what is the right thing to do.

 

Right now your ONLY job is to figure out the best schools for him to apply to in terms of reaches, "good" schools, and safeties (both academically and financially). You don't need to worry about all the "what ifs" until about 18 months from now! And there are so many unknowns!

 

For both of my older kids, despite numerous acceptances and lots of merit aid offers, the final decision EASILY came down to only two schools.

 

I'm sure that when all of the results are in,l your son will be able to automatically eliminate some of the options, leaving him with only a handful. And right now you have now way of knowing if the decision will come down to a financial one, one based on location, one based on the quality of a certain major, one based on his experience visiting the school, or something about the school that you aren't even considering right now!

 

Focus on choosing schools -- and that is ALL for right now! (I'm preaching to myself as well -- I have a junior who is trying to prioritize colleges. She has three schools she is definitely applying to, but we are trying to find another 3 or 4.....She is trying to make a decision already, and I keep reminding her that she needs to visit the schools, get accepted, see what the offers entail, etc. She's putting the cart in front of the horse!)

[Hoggirl]

Don't borrow trouble! There's a pretty good chance that when the acceptances/offers are in, you and your child will just know what is the right thing to do.

 

 

For both of my older kids, despite numerous acceptances and lots of merit aid offers, the final decision EASILY came down to only two schools.

 

 

Focus on choosing schools -- and that is ALL for right now! (I'm preaching to myself as well -- I have a junior who is trying to prioritize colleges. She has three schools she is definitely applying to, but we are trying to find another 3 or 4.....She is trying to make a decision already, and I keep reminding her that she needs to visit the schools, get accepted, see what the offers entail, etc. She's putting the cart in front of the horse!)

 

All of these points were things I really needed to hear.

 

I sound a lot like your daughter when it comes to putting the cart before the horse!!

 

Thank you. :001_smile:

[JennW in SoCal]

Somewhere out there are a bunch of middle schools that are well worth the cost for your particular student. Even if your student is Stanford material. Finding them might be a challenge, but I would be more worried about finding them than about whether they are worth paying for. If you find the right one, it will be worth paying for, I think. To some extent, one's education is what one makes of it. Your job is to offer encouragement and advice on how to do that, even if one isn't at Stanford.

 

 

:iagree::iagree: Nicely put, Nan!

 

Have you read Loren Pope's books, either Colleges that Change Lives or Beyond the Ivies? The Colleges that Change Lives (CTCL) describes 50 excellent "hidden gems" -- schools that are academically excellent and provide a supportive atmosphere for personal growth. Not many of them are in warm climates, but there are a few. There is a website that lists them and has brief descriptions.

 

My own ds had initially fallen in love with a top-ish school but realized a different, not well known, LAC was a much better fit, and I feel our money is being well spent there. (They happen to be very generous with the merit aid, too.) The perfect fit school was one of the CTCL schools, and is also where the ds of another of our regular WTMer is now a junior.

 

I'd start making a list of schools both large and small that are in warm locations and visit them over vacations. LACs do tend to all say the same things about themselves, but there are subtle differences. The final decision was easier once acceptances were in -- my ds spent time in classes and talking with professors and students which made the "feel" and "fit" of the schools really obvious.

 

You should also start lurking on College Confidential knowing that it can be a very twisted place!! There are lots of high powered, ambitious students and parents who are all concentrating on the Ivies, so you start feeling like a loser for not aiming your child at Stanford or Yale. BUT, the parents forum can be helpful as there are lists of schools with good merit aid, and the individual forums for individual schools can be useful -- not always but sometimes.

 

A plug for So Cal private schools, before I go! University of San Diego is good but the music program is not so terrific. They have a small but excellent engineering department. The Claremont Colleges - a consortium of several small LACs in LA is fabulous, especially since you can take courses at the other schools if you need something unique. For instance I know a young violinist who is at Harvey Mudd but involved in music at Pomona. Whittier is good. Of course USC is good. I'm not sure what state you are in but the UCs are accepting lots more out of state students who pay full out-of-state tuition. They are still good schools but the state budget is a nightmare, and tuition keeps going up.

 

I know lots of kids who've left California to attend school in Arizona, both NAU (a nice, small public uni) and The U of Arizona. Don't know if there is merit aid or not. NAU gets cold 'cause it is in the mountains so it may not meet your son's criteria!

[Laura in CA]

I know lots of kids who've left California to attend school in Arizona, both NAU (a nice, small public uni) and The U of Arizona. Don't know if there is merit aid or not. NAU gets cold 'cause it is in the mountains so it may not meet your son's criteria!

 

My son visited NAU last April. We thought it sounded perfect (beautiful area with lots of snow in winter; we have family in AZ; etc.), but he -- unfortunately -- didn't like the campus 'vibe'. But I think it would have been very affordable for us -- they do WUE, I believe (tuition is 50% of in-state tuition for OOS students from western states); they lock in tuition for four years, so no rude surprises; and they have a finish in four philosophy/guarantee (unless you are in engineering and one other major -- and my son wants to do engineering :tongue_smilie:). Definitely worth a look, especially for folks out West.

[Emerald Stoker]

nm

[ThisIsTheDay]

...

[*LC]

As of today, we do not have "need." We have one ds and have saved since birth. Lord only knows what tomorrow holds, but as of today, we could send him anywhere he could get in. I am struggling with how to factor in the cost of middle schools b/c we *could* afford them. But, while I wouldn't struggle paying full price for tippy top schools, I do sort of struggle with paying a full sticker price for a lesser school when the price differential isn't that great, kwim??

 

 

Hey,

 

You received great advice on how to pick "middle" schools.

 

Your post stuck in my mind, and I wanted to share the analogy that has been running through my mind since reading your posts.

 

It seems to me that picking a college is similiar to buying a car. Different people have different opinions about what cars are worth, and different people have different opinions about what different colleges are worth.

 

It sounds to me like you have done a great job in saving to provide for your son's college. That is great. So, you can "buy" any kind of car. It is up to you what kind of "car" you are interested in buying if your son doesn't end up with the true luxury car.

 

What kind of "car" is worth it to your family will likely depend on a lot of different factors. Location and regional preferences should be considered if your son would like to live/work in your hometown after graduation. Around the same time I read your original post, I read something about why school X was a better choice than school Y, and I remember thinking where I live school Y would be the better choice.

 

I agree that you should talk to people about the schools, however, realize opinions about schools are just opinions. I recently had someone tell me that they only hires graduates from one particular school, which was interesting since I had heard from someone else that undergrads from that school have trouble finding jobs because they don't have practical experience.

 

If I was in your shoes, I would be happy to buy my son whatever car that he liked and met his educational needs and career goals. Go on some test drives/visits, see what he likes; things will become clearer.

 

P.S. My senior ended up with a lot of free application offers, and that did influence where applications were sent.

[Hoggirl]

 

 

Hey,

 

You received great advice on how to pick "middle" schools.

 

Your post stuck in my mind, and I wanted to share the analogy that has been running through my mind since reading your posts.

 

It seems to me that picking a college is similiar to buying a car. Different people have different opinions about what cars are worth, and different people have different opinions about what different colleges are worth.

 

It sounds to me like you have done a great job in saving to provide for your son's college. That is great. So, you can "buy" any kind of car. It is up to you what kind of "car" you are interested in buying if your son doesn't end up with the true luxury car.

 

What kind of "car" is worth it to your family will likely depend on a lot of different factors. Location and regional preferences should be considered if your son would like to live/work in your hometown after graduation. Around the same time I read your original post, I read something about why school X was a better choice than school Y, and I remember thinking where I live school Y would be the better choice.

 

I agree that you should talk to people about the schools, however, realize opinions about schools are just opinions. I recently had someone tell me that they only hires graduates from one particular school, which was interesting since I had heard from someone else that undergrads from that school have trouble finding jobs because they don't have practical experience.

 

If I was in your shoes, I would be happy to buy my son whatever car that he liked and met his educational needs and career goals. Go on some test drives/visits, see what he likes; things will become clearer.

 

P.S. My senior ended up with a lot of free application offers, and that did influence where applications were sent.

 

I wrote a reply to this yesterday, but it seems to have disappeared??

 

I love this analogy. I often remind my son that the ability to afford something doesn't mean it is something which needs to be purchased! And, I use a car as an example frequently! I might be able to go out and buy a brand new fancy car, but that doesn't mean that is the best decision for me.

 

I am frustrated primarily because he doesn't seem to have the interest level that I have! Just being honest here. He is off school for three days in February, but I cannot seem to get him interested in going to do any college visits during that break. We already have a trip scheduled for Spring Break, so our opportunities to see schools are infrequent. He is given a couple of days per year from his school to do this as excused absences, but I feel we need to avail ourselves of any and all chances to do this. He just isn't enthusiastic about it, but I fear once he is, we will be out of time.

[*LC]

Thank you so much for reposting. Our heat had gone out yesterday, and I "thought" I had read your post yesterday morning while I was still hiding under the bedcovers trying to stay warm. When I went to reply last night, I couldn't find the post that I thought I had read. I had tossed and turned the night before in the cold, so I decided I must have dreamed about there being such a post.

 

You are right that some people are comfortable paying for Mercedes and some people would never pay for anything more than a Honda Civic. You have to decide what you are comfortable paying? Comfortable is probably too strong a word. As this time comes closer for my oldest, I am getting less comfortable at the total cost. However, I think college is worth so I am willing to pay -- just not comfortable paying.

 

My oldest hasn't had a great deal of interest in the college process either. I remember pouring over the college mail I received in high school; she doesn't open anything.. I know she does read some of the e-mails, because she laughs that the application deadlines have been extended numerous times at one school. Anyway, she has been on three college visits and to one high school subject specific day at a local college. Out of those, she liked one and decided to go there. Her reasons for not liking the others aren't "good" reasons, but she did not apply to the other schools. She only wanted to apply to the one school, but I made her fill out free applications to a number of other schools that have her intended major. She has been accepted with merit scholarships at all of them. Actually, she hasn't heard from one, but I think they notify much later.

 

I personally didn't give her a choice about visiting. I feel this is where parents get to make the decision.

 

We visited one school while on vacation, and it wasn't a good fit. The other two I planned a trip to vsit over the summer. I never asked if she wanted to go, I just said we are going to visit colleges on these 3 days. I asked if she had any input on where she wanted to go visit; she didn't , so I picked 2 schools I thought would work for her and had majors that would interest her. (You could probably visit more schools than we did in 3 days; we had some other errands we had to take care of in the 60 hours we had for the trip.) On our drive home after our trip,she announced she liked one of the schools better than the other. It surprised both of us, because she picked the college I attended, and she normally doesn't like what I like. A few months later, she attended the high school day at the local college. After that visit, she went back to my college with a friend over spring break. She came back convinced that was where she wanted to go, and she hasn't reconsidered. (She did express some interest in late fall in applying to a highly-ranked school just to say she got in -- assuing she got in --, however, I wouldn't agree to pay for that since she wasn't even sure what top school she wanted to apply to.)

 

So, my advice would be to pick some schools you would be comfortable paying for and go visit on the days you have in February. I literally drew a circle on a map of how far we could go and get back with time to for a college visit in 3 days. I then researched schools that were inside my circle for what I thought would be a good fit.

 

One way to get him enthusiastic might be to invite some of his friends to come along on the trip. We saw that on both of our visits; a group of friends visiting together.

 

Good luck.

 

P.S. As I was writing this, it dawned on me that I only visited 3 schools when I was looking at college. I think I applied to 2 of them.

[Hoggirl]

@*LC - you are 100% correct. This *should* be a parental decision. Thanks. I needed that kick in the pants!!!