"Christian Nation" question

[Desert Strawberry]

I'm working my way through the thread about the prayer at the concert. Some of the references equating Christianity and patriotism, both here and elsewhere, have me wondering.

 

Assuming that you actually believe that this is Christian nation:

 

If someone subscribes to a non Christian faith, is that person then less American?

Does it matter if the person worships the Judeo-Christian God, but in a different way? For instance, Jews and Muslims?

Is a member of a non-Judeo-Christian religious even less American? Say, Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists, Sikhs, Pagans?

Is the mere presence of non-Christians harmful to the fabric of society?

Are non-Christians benign as long as they keep their opinions to themselves?

 

Personally, I am a Buddhist. I live a life of faith. Most of those who meet me assume that I am a devout Christian or Catholic (whichever they themseles happen to be, I know that Catholics are Christians, I specify becasue I live in a heavily Catholic area, where there are cultural differences). My faith shows in my lifestyle, and in my choices and comportment.

I served my country. I spent 3 years overseas in the military. I wore the uniform, I made the sacrifices, I have the scars. I did not see combat, but had the war broken out 6 months earlier, I may well have. I did my duty, whatever was asked of me.

Is my service less valuable because of my faith? I have noticed that the people who have made these comments in my real life, equating faith with patriotism have not served. I am unclear how I, as a veteran, a productive member of society and a woman of strong faith, am somehow detrimental to that society which I defended and now contribute to.

 

If I am making inaccurate assumptions, please set me straight.

[BrookValley.]

Is my service less valuable because of my faith? I have noticed that the people who have made these comments in my real life, equating faith with patriotism have not served. I am unclear how I, as a veteran, a productive member of society and a woman of strong faith, am somehow detrimental to that society which I defended and now contribute to.

 

 

 

In short, no, and you're not.

 

Christianity is the majority religion. In that respect, we are a Christian nation. However, my opinion is that using someone's religion (or lack thereof) as some sort of metric to judge an individual's patriotism--or judge their value or worth in any way--is decidedly un-American. I firmly believe the United States was intended to be a nation of tolerance and diversity.

[nova147]

I don't think this is a Christian nation. Many of the founders were Christians. That means there are a number of Christian values and sentiments woven into the fabric of our country's culture. But that doesn't reflect our society as a whole. Just watch TV! :D

 

Thank you for your service!

[SKL]

I don't think we're a "Christian nation."

 

However, a couple of times in past years, I've made the mistake of saying that, when I really meant that most Americans happen to identify as Christians. The point being that I don't agree with banning religious expression just because some folks (majority or minority) don't hold the same beliefs. For example, the idea that it's offensive for a private citizen to say "Merry Christmas" without first confirming the hearer's religion.

[Lady Florida.]

The U.S. is not a Christian nation, despite the fact that the majority religion is Christian. The two are not the same. God and Jesus are nowhere to be found in the Constitution, aka The Law of the Land. In fact, the only time religion (of any kind) is even mentioned, is to tell the government to stay out of it.

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

Some people that I know personally believe for some reason that this country was founded on Christian principles. I don't know where they get that idea. Yes, the Pilgrims came over here to practice their religion freely without persecution, but they weren't the ones who actually founded this country. As far as my study of history has told me, this country was founded for financial reasons, not religious ones. Yes, many of the people who were at the Constitutional Convention were Christians, but they were founding a representative republic, not a theocracy.

 

Yes, the majority of this country's current citizens practice the Christian religion, but that doesn't make this a Christian nation. It irks me when people say that.

[SKL]

Actually, the Declaration of Independence makes many references to divinity. Of course that does not make the USA a "Christian nation," but I think it's fair to say that Christian / theist principles definitely were at play in the founding of the nation.

 

It is also true that everyone in the Continental Congress was a white man and surely influenced by that fact. But we wouldn't call ourselves a "white male" country.

 

It's one thing to acknowledge a historical fact, and another to declare that this is the basis of our identity now.

 

I keep waiting for the state of California (and others) to decide that it's unconstitutional to have locations called San Francisco, Los Angeles, etc.

Some people that I know personally believe for some reason that this country was founded on Christian principles. I don't know where they get that idea.

 

I'm curious if someone could list specific principles from the US Constitution that are said to be Christian? Especially the big ones -- three branches of government, representational democracy, ability to amend, federation of states, letters of marquis and reprisal, etc., none of these seem to be particularly biblical.

[Jennifer3141]

I think there are pockets of the US that feel like we are a Xtian nation and pockets of the US that WANT to be a Xtian nation but even though I live in the former, there are an awful lot of secularists to counterbalance that point.

 

I've been thinking about my circle of friends and as far as church attending goes:

 

1. Two families work on Sundays so that's out.

2. One family sees gay rights as a Constitutional issue and refuses to participate in a mostly patriarchal social system that perpetuates gender stereotypes.

3. One family had a member molested by a paster when the father was young so no church for them.

4. Three families feel exhausted from their work week and just want to relax on the weekend.

5. Three families will go when they see proof of Jesus and not just as part of more world creation myths, ie Noah wasn't the first "flood" myth, etc.

6. Four families just never considered it - they "escaped" from church when they became adults and have no interest in it now.

7. Five familes have a strong science background so they have little interest in spiritual mysteries.

 

Over half of those families consider themselves Xtian but their faith is different than that of their parents. It's more personal to them and they are not comfortable judging other families/people in any way. They celebrate Xmas and they do bible stories but they want to be in charge of their own faith. What they all have in common is a deep desire for a secular political/social life.

 

So I think we might be a Xtian nation in some areas but I think the secular/people of other faiths are quietly changing this in the background, just by being who they are. None of my friends consider themselves to be "less" American although most of us joke about running off to Canada when particularly insane bills pass through Congress.

 

And Strawberry, thank you for your service.

[SKL]

I've been thinking about my circle of friends and as far as church attending goes:

 

1. Two families work on Sundays so that's out.

2. One family sees gay rights as a Constitutional issue and refuses to participate in a mostly patriarchal social system that perpetuates gender stereotypes.

3. One family had a member molested by a paster when the father was young so no church for them.

4. Three families feel exhausted from their work week and just want to relax on the weekend.

5. Three families will go when they see proof of Jesus and not just as part of more world creation myths, ie Noah wasn't the first "flood" myth, etc.

6. Four families just never considered it - they "escaped" from church when they became adults and have no interest in it now.

7. Five familes have a strong science background so they have little interest in spiritual mysteries.

 

 

And then there's me. (Major confession coming.) I take my kids to church because it statistically helps kids grow up more successful, because it's a rare time for me to just sit with them without an agenda, because I like the hymns, and a few other non-spiritual reasons.

 

They had been to a Hindu temple multiple times before ever setting foot in a church.

 

For me, spirituality is different from religion. But I see that many nice, simple people get a lot (non-materially) out of participating in their religious activities, and I think that can only be a good thing.

[Jennifer3141]

And then there's me. (Major confession coming.) I take my kids to church because it statistically helps kids grow up more successful, because it's a rare time for me to just sit with them without an agenda, because I like the hymns, and a few other non-spiritual reasons.

 

They had been to a Hindu temple multiple times before ever setting foot in a church.

 

For me, spirituality is different from religion. But I see that many nice, simple people get a lot (non-materially) out of participating in their religious activities, and I think that can only be a good thing.

 

SKL, you don't have to "confess" to going to church! :D

It works for some people. It just seems to be working less and less for more and more people.

[SKL]

SKL, you don't have to "confess" to going to church! :D

It works for some people. It just seems to be working less and less for more and more people.

 

I was "confessing" that my reasons for doing so are not spiritual. At least, not in the present season of my life.

[gardenmom5]

.

Edited April 24, 2012 by gardenmom5

[Denise in Florida]

The U.S. is not a Christian nation, despite the fact that the majority religion is Christian. The two are not the same. God and Jesus are nowhere to be found in the Constitution, aka The Law of the Land. In fact, the only time religion (of any kind) is even mentioned, is to tell the government to stay out of it.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

I am an active Christian, I have been actively involved with my local church (less so right now due to life pressures) and a vibrant Bible study group. I do not want religion in politics, I do not want Pastors holding prayer circles at school, I do not want Judeo-Christian doctrines codified as law.

[Denise in Florida]

Actually, the Declaration of Independence makes many references to divinity. Of course that does not make the USA a "Christian nation," but I think it's fair to say that Christian / theist principles definitely were at play in the founding of the nation.

 

It is also true that everyone in the Continental Congress was a white man and surely influenced by that fact. But we wouldn't call ourselves a "white male" country.

 

It's one thing to acknowledge a historical fact, and another to declare that this is the basis of our identity now.

 

I keep waiting for the state of California (and others) to decide that it's unconstitutional to have locations called San Francisco, Los Angeles, etc.

 

well put :iagree:

[Mergath]

I don't think this is a Christian nation. Many of the founders were Christians. That means there are a number of Christian values and sentiments woven into the fabric of our country's culture. But that doesn't reflect our society as a whole. Just watch TV! :D

 

Thank you for your service!

 

Let's not forget that many of the founding fathers were Deists, not Christians. Some were a mixture of the two. Also, a number of these values and sentiments are common to almost all world religions, not just Christianity.

[Kathleen in VA]

The only Christian nation that will (and, indeed, could ever exist) is the New Jerusalem, aka heaven. The U.S. is not a Christian nation and can never be. To be a Christian nation it would have to be a theocracy (governed by God). Christian principles certainly influenced the founding of this country - they still influence it to some degree - but it simply is not possible for any earthly nation to be a "Christian" nation.

Edited April 24, 2012 by Kathleen in VA
clarification of theocracy

[Caitilin]

Considering this is your *very first* post - I wonder you would start out on such a potentially controversial subject?

 

Huh?? Did you look at her post count? I have read several of Strawberry's posts before.

[Lady Florida.]

Actually, the Declaration of Independence makes many references to divinity. Of course that does not make the USA a "Christian nation," but I think it's fair to say that Christian / theist principles definitely were at play in the founding of the nation.

 

Divinity yes, but not specifically Christian. The Declaration of Independence refrences a Creator. Also, that document is an explanation of why they chose to break from England; it isn't law.

 

 

It's one thing to acknowledge a historical fact, and another to declare that this is the basis of our identity now.

:iagree:

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

I am an active Christian, I have been actively involved with my local church (less so right now due to life pressures) and a vibrant Bible study group. I do not want religion in politics, I do not want Pastors holding prayer circles at school, I do not want Judeo-Christian doctrines codified as law.

 

:thumbup: Keeping religion out of government and politics protects everyone, including religious people.

 

Huh?? Did you look at her post count? I have read several of Strawberry's posts before.

 

I went :confused: also. She doesn't post often, but I have read her posts here before. This wasn't her first.

[KidsHappen]

Considering this is your *very first* post - I wonder you would start out on such a potentially controversial subject?

 

Huh? :001_huh: She has over 250 posts.

[leeannpal]

In short, no, and you're not.

 

Christianity is the majority religion. In that respect, we are a Christian nation. However, my opinion is that using someone's religion (or lack thereof) as some sort of metric to judge an individual's patriotism--or judge their value or worth in any way--is decidedly un-American. I firmly believe the United States was intended to be a nation of tolerance and diversity.

 

:iagree: I also don't understand the concept of a Christian nation. People can choose to be Christian.,but our country was founded on having freedom of religion. I would think that meant all religions and not just Christianity.

Edited April 24, 2012 by leeannpal

[Desert Strawberry]

Considering this is your *very first* post - I wonder you would start out on such a potentially controversial subject?

 

 

Well, clearly this is NOT my very first post. I am an infrequent poster. I mostly lurk.

I find that usually the interesting threads are very long. I don't contribute unless I feel I have somethng useful and original to add to the discussion. I feel like an outsider in all but the most mundane topics. I have not used a great variety of curriculum. I have only been home schooling for a few years. We are finishing our first year as classical homeschoolers. My children are young. We live a very quiet, rather isolated life. I have very little family. We don't attend church. We have a different faith. In short, I don't have a whole lot going on that is worth sharing or that I think would be of interest to the board at large.

 

I have asked a few controversial (I guess, I didn't think so) religious questions because nowhere else in my life have I come across some of the topics that are openly discussed here. In the few pages of the aforementioned thread that I have read so far, there were numerous references to this being a "Christian nation". Aside from Facebook posts by aquaintances, blog posts and such, I have not encountered that term being used very often. Certainly not being stated as a fact, openly and debated. I'm not sure why it's ok to throw it out there, but not ok for me to question it.

 

Maybe I should go throw a bunch of smilies at everyone's threads to promote myself in the general consciousness of the board so that when I do post, people feel more comfortable replying to me. FWIW, my curriculum questions usually don't get a lot of responses either.

 

Anyway, back to the topic. I agree so far wth the pps. I do recognize that the majority of Americans identify as Christian, even though it's more a default culutral identity than a true devotion to the faith. In our culture, often, spiritually and morality are considered equitable with Christianity.In some circles "good character" is used interchangably with "Christian". I have had many people tell me that I am a good Christian, that I am following God's word and I do aspire to be a Proverbs 31 wife. Because good morals are good morals, regardless of which book you read them from.

 

But, with all due respect, this isn't the opinion I'm looking for. I would really love to hear from someone who truly believe that this is or should be a Biblically Christian nation. Because that leaves me wondering where I fit in.

I don't care if it actually is or isn't. I don't care if it was and now is no longer. I don't really care if it wasn't and now is becoming a Christian nation. None of that efects me or my faith or my family at this time. I am not anti Christian or anti church or anti whatever. I truly do believe in tolerance. I am aware that I am in the minority. It's my reality. It's okey dokey with me. I just want to hear the other side.

Edited April 25, 2012 by strawberrymama

[Farrar]

But, with all due respect, this isn't the opinion I'm looking for. I would really love to hear from someone who truly believe that this is or should be a Biblically Christian nation. Because that leaves me wondering where I fit in.

I don't care if it actually is or isn't. I don't care if it was and now is no longer. I don't really care if it wasn't and now is becoming a Christian nation. None of that efects me or my faith or my family at this time. I am not anti Christian or anti church or anti whatever. I truly do believe in tolerance. I am aware that I am in the minority. It's my reality. It's okey dokey with me. I just want to hear the other side.

 

It's one thing to accept that you're part of a minority group and another to say you don't care... I guess the way I see it, the belief that this is a "Christian nation" in law and fact (not just population statistics or historical influence) is fundamentally opposed to real tolerance and equality.

[Coffeetime]

I'm a Christian, and I do not believe that this is a "Christian nation". It really bothers me when I hear that phrase, as well. To be so, this country would have to be a theocracy, which would be completely antithetic to everything the founding fathers intended to form. I tend to think that when most people say that phrase, they don't really understand exactly what they are saying ("You keep saying that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.") :D I think there are some people who truly believe that we are a "Christian Nation", and as such subscribe to some sort of dominionism/reconstruction theology, which is not something I believe, and which is probably a thread all to itself. ;)

[SKL]

But, with all due respect, this isn't the opinion I'm looking for. I would really love to hear from someone who truly believe that this is or should be a Biblically Christian nation. Because that leaves me wondering where I fit in.

I don't care if it actually is or isn't. I don't care if it was and now is no longer. I don't really care if it wasn't and now is becoming a Christian nation. None of that efects me or my faith or my family at this time. I am not anti Christian or anti church or anti whatever. I truly do believe in tolerance. I am aware that I am in the minority. It's my reality. It's okey dokey with me. I just want to hear the other side.

 

Maybe you're not getting what you asked for because people who say "Christian nation" don't actually mean it in the legal sense. Maybe they just misspeak, as I have done a couple times in the past.

 

I do think there are a few people who think that it "should be" a Christian nation, but they are a small minority. If nothing else, the strong Jewish influence in our country keeps people aware that it isn't.

[Denise in Florida]

Maybe you're not getting what you asked for because people who say "Christian nation" don't actually mean it in the legal sense. Maybe they just misspeak, as I have done a couple times in the past.

 

I do think there are a few people who think that it "should be" a Christian nation, but they are a small minority. If nothing else, the strong Jewish influence in our country keeps people aware that it isn't.

 

Sadly, this is not true around here, they are a vocal and active majority as far as I can tell. I feel like moving to the South was like entering a time warp (without the Tim Curry dance steps :lol:). Because I am active in my faith, many people assume that I agree with conservative Christian politics. This leads them to state opinions on public subjects that I really don't agree with. I try to explain my view point if they ask or if they seem open to discussion. If not, I just change the subject. :glare:

[Desert Strawberry]

Maybe you're not getting what you asked for because people who say "Christian nation" don't actually mean it in the legal sense. Maybe they just misspeak, as I have done a couple times in the past.

 

I do think there are a few people who think that it "should be" a Christian nation, but they are a small minority. If nothing else, the strong Jewish influence in our country keeps people aware that it isn't.

 

That is possible. However, it doesn't seem like an oversight. It seems to me that there is a large, vocal portion of the population who believes that this nation was based on Christianity, Christian ideals, and views separation of church and state differently than those responding here. There is definitely a push to legislate moral behavior by the Christian right. Clearly this is not a theocracy. We do not have a national mandated religion. I am very curious to hear from those who believe that we should, or seem unaware of that fact.

[Hannah C.]

:iagree: I also don't understand the concept of a Christian nation. People can choose to be Christian.,but our country was founded on having freedom of religion. I would think that meant all religions and not just Christianity.

 

Actually, this really isn't true. The United States of America was formed with very little reference to any sort of deity, but multiple states had religious requirements for office at the state level, and religious tolerance usually meant tolerance for different Christian denominations. Virginia was the only one of the original 13 states which had something resembling our religious tolerance in their state constitution. (I wrote my senior thesis about religion in US state constitutions between 1776 and 1791.)

 

To the OP, I'm afraid I'm another who doesn't think the US was intended to be a Christian nation and therefore can't answer your questions. I know of people who do think the US is a Christian nation, but I've never seen them say anything specific along the lines of the questions you posted.

[KarenNC]

I usually pull out references to the Treaty of Tripoli from 1796, specifically Article 11: http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/bar1796t.asp

 

ARTICLE 11.

 

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

 

Of course the last bit is no longer true, but it does speak to the question at hand.

 

About its ratification (June 10, 1797):

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/bar1796n.asp#n4

Now be it known, That I John Adams, President of the United States of America, having seen and considered the said Treaty do, by and with the advice consent of the Senate, accept, ratify, and confirm the same, and every clause and article thereof. And to the End that the said Treaty may be observed and performed with good Faith on the part of the United States, I have ordered the premises to be made public; And I do hereby enjoin and require all persons bearing office civil or military within the United States, and all others citizens or inhabitants thereof, faithfully to observe and fulfil the said Treaty and every clause and article thereof.

 

So, this was ratified when John Adams was President, Thomas Jefferson was Vice-President, and included several who had been delegates to the Continental Congress.

 

Interestingly, for those who claim that it was mere political expedience, the wording not reflective of true American intent and just to pacify the Arabic signers, Article 11 actually only exists in the English translation. The Arab signers never saw it. However, it is what the American government understood to be the actual treaty (see the "note regarding the Barlow translation" at the above link).

 

Another good article http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html

 

The founding of America owes, IMO, as much to the principles of the ancient Greeks and Romans as to those of Christianity.

http://www.historytoday.com/stuart-andrews/classicism-and-american-revolution

http://teachergenius.teachtci.com/ancient-greece-and-rome-and-their-influence-on-modern-western-civilization-2/

[Hannah C.]

:iagree: with Karen's post above.

 

Some state governments could have been seen as "Christian" (with Christian Sabbath laws and religious requirements for office), but never the federal government.

[Bluegoat]

Well, part of what some people may mean is that the forms and many of the underlying assumptions of modern Western society have come out of a Christian worldview. This is even true in much more secular states than the US. One could even make the argument that the separation of church and state itself is such a concept.