How is this possible? Failing Iowa (4'th grade math) yet doing Saxon 7/6 work?

[Bess]

My 10 year old son is doing Saxon 7/6 math work. He does a lesson a day, and does well with it. Any mistakes he makes during his lessons, he fixes that day. I know it's not a matter of missing "gaps" in math either... because he started with Saxon 5/4 and has been doing Saxon consistantly since.

 

Well, we just gave him his first tests (using Iowa) and he has failing grades in math!!!!!!! We used the Iowa 4'th grade tests. How can this be????? We are thinking of changing out his curriculum due to this. This is the first year he's tested because we moved to a state that requires testing.

 

I don't get it. :confused: Has this happened to anyone else? If you were me, would you be looking into another math curriculum? By the way, before the testing, we have noticed this particular son doesn't seem to get real life application of math. He tends to lack common sense, especially concerning abstract concepts. So would another math curriculum change that? I don't know. :001_huh:

 

Thanks for any thoughts.

[Sue G in PA]

My .02 so take it FWIW. First of all, some kids just don't test well...they aren't "test takers", KWIM? That could play a role in his scores. For example, my dd11 is a voracious reader and comprehends what she reads as well. But, 2 years ago she got very low scores on her reading section of the PSSA's (PA state tests)! I was flabbergasted! But, I realized it wasn't her skills, but rather the test and her test taking skills.

 

Another thing is that "mental math" or real life application. I don't know how much was on the test, but it's possible that tripped him up. My ds8 and dd11 used Saxon this year and tested well on all assessments. 80% and above, typically in the 90's. I had them take the Singapore Math placement test b/c I was considering switching. I had ds take the level below his grade level and he still bombed it. Why? Saxon taught him how to plug in numbers and memorize formulas, but not how to really think mathematically. Dd11 took 2 levels below hers and also bombed! She knew the material b/c she covered it in Saxon 7/6, but she also learned to follow a formula but not think mathematically or "outside the box". If it wasn't phrased like Saxon's problems...she was stumped. Ds, too. I realized that Saxon didn't really teach them to think but rather to plug numbers into formulas. Now, this isn't to say that Saxon isn't a good program or that this is the case with everyone who uses Saxon.

 

So, to answer your question...you could switch programs and try something like Singapore for the "mental math" component OR you could just supplement Saxon with Singapore's Challenging Word Problems. If I decide to stick w/ Saxon for the dc I mentioned...I'm still going to supplement with the CWP. I hope that all makes sense! Don't fret too much about it, though...it was just one test!

[Mama Bear]

One on one eval done? I have kids who test badly but don't have trouble with the work, far from it. Evals reflect a more realistic picture for certain kids. Many evaluators are also well qualified to discuss solid recs for curricula and learning styles based on what they've seen in your kiddo -- toward the goal of getting your kid to test in the mainstream, if that's indeed possible.

 

I wouldn't necessarily swerve away from Saxon, but it's great that you're paying attention and looking for answers. Sounds like you've got a kid who is a puzzle, not like you're doing something wrong.

 

:grouphug:

[Faithr]

Perhaps he doesn't test well? Maybe he was having a bad day? How does he do in his Saxon tests? Did you prep him at all beforehand? I like to work through some of the problems in a test prep workbook so my kids get the hang of what's expected and how things are presented. Maybe he needed that prep? Especially if you've never tested before. Those tests can have a foreign feel to them that maybe threw him off. Maybe he just filled in the bubble wrong!!!!

 

Frankly, I wouldn't panic. It's only 4th grade. Everybody should be allowed to bomb out occasionally, especially on these silly standardized test which (obviously!!!) are not designed to show what the child really knows.

 

Just had another thought. . . if he's working so far ahead of the level you were testing him at, maybe he overthought the problems? Maybe he just wasn't paying attention because it was so easy?

 

My kids do Saxon and test really well in math. I do think there is plenty of real life application in Saxon. I don't know if the tests reflect 'real life' anymore than Saxon would, probably less!

[Frontier Mom]

I am glad to hear someone else is in this boat. I have been so stressed by my ds's test scores on IBST and his was 4th grade. I wonder if something is up with that test?

 

My other three scored exactly where I would have expected. However, my ds that took the 4th grade test did horrible. Like your son, he does really well in math and we actually used Bob Jones this last year. The year before we used Saxon so I'm not sure the curriculum matters very much.

 

I called the testing service and was even sure they got his score mixed up with someone else. My dh even said the same thing, "That is NOT his score." They told me it was his score and I am retesting him next week on a 3rd grade test to get a better feel.

 

I'm glad you posted because maybe there is something up with the 4th grade test. My ds has always tested well also, although this is the first year we have used IBST. Previously we used Woodcock-Johnson which was a different style.

[Mom to Aly]

I agree, it must be how he tests. I have a sister who tests horribly, so badly, in fact, that when she finished her associates and applied to a full term college and took their entrance exams they told her they were stunned she finished junior high school (I know, nice).

 

I would look at an eval, or something else done by the school if you can't afford that--you have the right to have a portfolio submitted in some states, and you don't have to pay for it. Also, if this is the first standardized test he has taken, he may have just been really nervous and not known exactly what to expect. Just make sure he knows how smart he is and that it means what it does--absolutely nothing. Isn't this one of oh so many reasons why we do homeschool our kids--so that these arbitrary methods of judgement can't be forced on them?

[Pongo]

Not much help here. My 4th(9yod)- scored 6.4 grade equivalent, 84th percentile, we used BJU 1-5/Singapore1A-5B and she is now doing Lial's BCM.

[Ailaena]

Was there one or more areas within the math section in which he did do better? Like math computation? And how are you interpreting fail? 50%ile would be an average score, and in the state of Colorado (I dont know where you are) a "problem" score would be 13%ile and below.

 

This was the first year that I gave dd the IOWA test at home, and what I noticed when looking through the math portion, was that there was LOADS of problem solving outside the one math computation area. There was even one entire section of graph interpretation.

 

You dont have to change anything if you are comfortable with it, but since Saxon is so plug-and-chug, it couldn't hurt to supplement a little bit and see if the scores improve next year.

[Bess]

I am glad to hear someone else is in this boat. I have been so stressed by my ds's test scores on IBST and his was 4th grade. I wonder if something is up with that test?

 

My other three scored exactly where I would have expected. However, my ds that took the 4th grade test did horrible. Like your son, he does really well in math and we actually used Bob Jones this last year. The year before we used Saxon so I'm not sure the curriculum matters very much.

 

I called the testing service and was even sure they got his score mixed up with someone else. My dh even said the same thing, "That is NOT his score." They told me it was his score and I am retesting him next week on a 3rd grade test to get a better feel.

 

I'm glad you posted because maybe there is something up with the 4th grade test. My ds has always tested well also, although this is the first year we have used IBST. Previously we used Woodcock-Johnson which was a different style.

 

 

Well, I'm not sure if it is the 4'th grade test. My other son (also 10) tested well doing the same test. He is also in Saxon 7/6. This other son is a math whiz though in "real life"...that's his thing, so it's hard to know. My other son (who failed, was adopted at age 6, and we think he simply doesn't learn the same).

[Bess]

Was there one or more areas within the math section in which he did do better? Like math computation? And how are you interpreting fail? 50%ile would be an average score, and in the state of Colorado (I dont know where you are) a "problem" score would be 13%ile and below.

 

This was the first year that I gave dd the IOWA test at home, and what I noticed when looking through the math portion, was that there was LOADS of problem solving outside the one math computation area. There was even one entire section of graph interpretation.

 

You dont have to change anything if you are comfortable with it, but since Saxon is so plug-and-chug, it couldn't hurt to supplement a little bit and see if the scores improve next year.

 

Hmm, maybe herein lies the problem? We didn't get the test scores done yet technically... my husband (a math person) "graded" their scores after they took the tests. He computed the %'s at the end, and he said our one son had a failing grade. So, maybe the test graders wouldn't consider him failing??? I'm confused.

[Ailaena]

Hmm, maybe herein lies the problem? We didn't get the test scores done yet technically... my husband (a math person) "graded" their scores after they took the tests. He computed the %'s at the end, and he said our one son had a failing grade. So, maybe the test graders wouldn't consider him failing??? I'm confused.

 

 

Ah... Well, then I shall instruct you to place no eggs in a basket you do not yet have (or something really cute like that)

 

Percentile score is the score you have to worry about the most. it ranks you according to how everyone else does that took that same test. For instance, if there are 20 problems, and the average 4th grader missed 10, then the percentile score for missing 10 problems would be 50th percentile (50%ile) and TOTALLY AVERAGE.

 

In fact, there are different subtests in which a child is ranked, as well, that could affect overall %ile score, leading him to do poorly on some sections, but just fine overall. So I would definitely wait until you get the score report!

 

HTH!

 

 

This will explain all about the scoring much better than I just did!

http://www.education.uiowa.edu/itp/itbs/itbs_interp_score.htm

[summer]

I would switch programs. If they just learn how to plug in numbers in exact same situations, then they will be thrown when a situation is at all different.

[Carol in Cal.]

We had been using Harcourt, and she was actually going backwards, I think. Having said that, I don't think Saxon is a great program; but it is the only one I can find that she really relates to for some reason. So what do I do about this? I sit with her often as I am correcting her work. I bought her the DIVE CD so that she can get a different POV on the same material. I buy local test prep books annually so that she can see whether problems that are set up differently are still doable. I use other words for things to make sure that she learns all of them. For instance, I just realized this weekend that she didn't know that average was the same as mean. I just can't believe this, but it's true. And yes, both terms were taught. So now she is clear on that point.

 

Also, he might actuall have done extremely well normed against other children of the same age. Your DH may have evaluated his grade based on criteria for an already taught material test, but usually acheivement tests contain material that is beyond the scope of that grade so that they can place kids into a distribution even if they are beyond the normal grade level material. Thus the percent is not nearly as critical as the percentile.

[Love2Learn]

I doubt that Saxon is the problem. My 4th grade son scored in the high 90's after completing Saxon 6/5.

[Heather in VA]

Hmm, maybe herein lies the problem? We didn't get the test scores done yet technically... my husband (a math person) "graded" their scores after they took the tests. He computed the %'s at the end, and he said our one son had a failing grade. So, maybe the test graders wouldn't consider him failing??? I'm confused.

 

Well I don't know how IOWA works but lots of tests don't work that way. If it's anything like the standardized tests we use, the ultimate scores are compared to the scores of other students his age and that's where you get your score. Raw score isn't the end of it. Many tests give problems they don't expect kids to get to draw out the really advanced ones but kids who only get 60 or 70% right are still at the top of the scoring. So you may want to wait until you get the official scoring back before you panic.

 

Another thing I should mention is that Saxon 7/6 isn't that unusual for a 4th grader so it's not like you should expect him to be doing as well as 7th graders - so it may just be that the test expects a 4th grader to get less right.

 

Wait and see, then if the scores are still poor, look into whether or not he's having trouble testing or if the Saxon stuff isn't sticking. Did DH make a note of the kind of problems he was getting wrong? I check my children's standarized tests too so I'll know what kind of things they don't know.

 

Heather

[Testimony]

I did not read all the other responses.

 

I wanted to say that I personally believe that it is the test and how your son tests. What if it is that your child did not understand what was being asked of him during the test? Has your child taken tests before? If not, I would not reject the Saxon math curriculum. If he has, maybe you should get one of those Scoring High Test Prep programs. They are old IOWA tests. Have him take a few of those prior to the real test. That will help him develop a practice for taking tests.

 

Taking tests is a knack. He may have to just catch the knack.

 

Blessing in your homeschool journey!

 

Sincerely,

Karen

http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/testimony

[Donna]

My kids have always used Saxon from Saxon 1 through where they are now (12b on Alg. 2, 10b Saxon 87, and 6g Saxon 3). Oldest scored high enough to be accepted by Johns Hopkins CTY and youngest scored above the 99.9% in math compared to other kids her age/grade.

 

I have not had middle ds tested because I know he does not test well though he easily completes all his math work and rarely gets a problem wrong. I know if I were to test him, it would have to be of material he is covering at the moment. A standardized test would not show what he can do or what he knows. If he were to take a test on material lower than where he is working, he would overthink or would forget the information covered years ago.

 

Maybe a review of 4th grade material prior to testing would have helped your ds. (I know math through Calc but I would have to review Geometry which I hadn't done in years before being able to teach it to my ds.) Maybe he would have done better on a higher level test or maybe he just doesn't test well. Was the testing given at home or taken somewhere other than home? Was he nervous about testing or did he not take it seriously enough? Was it a matter of not doing enough in the time prescribed or did he make silly mistakes because he didn't check his work? There are so many possible answers.

[TracyR]

Sounds like he doesn't test well . My oldest is like this very much . She is very bright , and amazes everyone around her with what she knows . Put a test in front of her and her brain becomes mush .

Also if this is his first time testing that needs to be taken in account . Even my 2nd daughter who actually is a good test taker didn't do well with her 1st test either .

 

Also I'm not sure how you fail standardized testing ? He just may of scored low like some of the posters said on mental math /real life applications .

If he is doing well with Saxon stay with it . Just supplement it with something like Singapore's challenging math problems to fill in that gap . Also with maturity and time his test taking skills will improve . Also going over that grades math work helps too . Believe it or not their brains are thinking of higher level math that they forget the steps and basics of lower level math . My oldest is in 5th grade math and her brain had to switch gears for 4th grade PSSA's ( our state testing ) . I've definitley seen this with my daughters as well . I think sometimes they get nervous and a bit fearful with these tests . In all regards these tests in the elementary years will not determine his life . Personally to me testing young children isn't going to give you a true measure of knowledge . If you know he is doing well with math and you see it , really that is all that matters . To me tests don't matter until High School :>) and I'm coming from a strict homeschooling state .

[BlsdMama]

Double Post- Sorry!

[BlsdMama]

You're keeping in mind that the scores are NOT % correct, right?

 

For example:

50% means the child scored as well as or better than 50% of his peers - completely average. It does NOT mean that he only got 50% of the test correct.

 

It might seem obvious, but if it's your first time recieving scores... Just wanted to double check!

[abbeyej]

...I'm glad you posted because maybe there is something up with the 4th grade test...

 

Well, it's not my intention to make you feel worse, but I doubt there's a problem with the test. Ds took the ITBS 4 this year as well...

 

Is it possible that your son filled in the wrong sections on the answer sheet, or went back to "correct" a section and corrected the wrong one? I've administered the ITBS for the last couple of years, and I've seen more than one child do that. We've caught them, and been able to fix the problem, but I can certainly see how it could slip through and really throw off a child's score. Especially with a child who was doing a "bubble test" for the first time.

[abbeyej]

Hmm, maybe herein lies the problem? We didn't get the test scores done yet technically... my husband (a math person) "graded" their scores after they took the tests. He computed the %'s at the end, and he said our one son had a failing grade. So, maybe the test graders wouldn't consider him failing??? I'm confused.

 

Yeah, the percent correct will *not* tell you your child's "percentile" score on the test. You will have to wait to receive the scores back.

 

Children are not *expected* to get all of the answers right on these tests, and the final score is based on how many they got right in comparison to other students at the same point in the same grade.

[Bess]

Yeah, the percent correct will *not* tell you your child's "percentile" score on the test. You will have to wait to receive the scores back.

 

Children are not *expected* to get all of the answers right on these tests, and the final score is based on how many they got right in comparison to other students at the same point in the same grade.

 

I definitely think this is the problem now. I feel embarrased that it never occured to us that it was sliding scale for scoring. So, perhaps it will come back that he is average. Still the gap between how this son did compared to the other son is vast, but we probably shouldn't be comparing anyway. Thanks for all your responses. You've set our minds at ease knowing it's likely a scoring issue, and he didn't probably fail after all.

[Bess]

Just wanted to follow up, since ya'll were so sweet to give me some good responses. Got the test scores back today in the mail (the real ones!), and he is above average grade level in math. I can't believe it. He took the fourth grade Iowa and ended up with a grade equivalent of 5.1. He got a 56% percentile ranking. So, this means he's average right? Not failing like we thought? We don't need to be concerned right? I'm feeling a lot more relieved. I was about to plunk down TONS of money on a new fancy math curriculum.

[Krista in LA]

Just wanted to follow up, since ya'll were so sweet to give me some good responses. Got the test scores back today in the mail (the real ones!), and he is above average grade level in math. I can't believe it. He took the fourth grade Iowa and ended up with a grade equivalent of 5.1. He got a 56% percentile ranking. So, this means he's average right? Not failing like we thought? We don't need to be concerned right? I'm feeling a lot more relieved. I was about to plunk down TONS of money on a new fancy math curriculum.

 

Yep, that would make him a nice average. Glad to hear that your fears were put to rest.