How much responsibility do mentally ill people owe to others to conform . . .

[KidsHappen]

their behavior to the other people's expections or preferences? First of all, this is someone whose happiness is just as important to me as my own. As most of your know, I am bi-polar. I do see a a regular dr and a counselor. I am medicated and regularly monitored. The last five years have been extremely stressful. If you looked at the list of most stressful events, we have probably dealt with most of them in this time period. My moods have been up and down. I have recently went through a period a depression which is unusual. I am usually more manic. Anyhow, I have dealt with that and have been pretty steady and balanced. I have someone in my life who however is bothered by the fact that I am not happy. I have never been a happy person so this is not a change in behavior. It is my basic personality. In spite of this fact, I am a content person. Maintaining some semblence of ability to function normally is enough for me. I am able to ride the waves of life's ups and downs better than most and take them in stride. Probably because of my mental illness I understand better than most that when things are bad that you just have to wait them out because they will change. However, the thought that now not only do I have work for normal but conform my behavior to what someone else would prefer it to be is almost more than I can bare. This person wants me to be happy and cheerful. To be aggresively amourous. To have a regular sleep cycle that conforms to the norm and best of all be able to do this without medication. :001_huh: There is no way for me to accomplish all of these things and I don't even know how to prioritize which traits are most important to shoot for. This person is theirself under extreme stress and very discontent. I understand the stress but not the sudden desire to change my behavior. I am at a loss. I honestly do not know what to do. Open to advice and suggestions.

 

Please don't quote in whole as I may delete in the future after I get some advice and idea of what direction to go in.

[MomatHWTK]

You probably already know this, but when someone is experiencing depression, often the first thing they do is blame everyone around them for their sudden discontent. I am an angry depressive, when I am down (and not medicating) everyone else is just doing something wrong to make my life miserable.

 

So, I would say that the person in question, due to stresses in life, is suffering from the onset of depression and the accompanying discontent.

 

I have had to have the "as is" conversation with someone. It is very painful to have to look someone in the eye and tell them, "This is a as good as I get, take it or leave it." What I learned is that the other person had no idea how very deeply outside opinions and criticism cut. I made my feelings very clear (very loudly :glare:) and told them their options were to take me as I come or not. Of course, I want to please the people I love but not if doing so makes me feel so bad about myself that I can't function. KWIM?

 

Be honest with the person, try not to take it as personally as it seems and consider counselling if the two of you aren't able to communicate your way thought this. :grouphug:

[MinivanMom]

Well, having dealt with family members who were mentally ill I don't think I ever expected them to conform to my expectations. I did expect them to not impose on me or my family. There is an important distinction there.

 

For example, one relative often engaged in risky dating/sexual behaviors while manic. I felt great concern for the situation, but it was not my place to dictate her dating habits. However, at one point she decided that she was going to introduce my children to one of these men without my consent or knowledge (a man she had met only a few weeks before). I'll spare you the details, but she was being sneaky and dishonest. I told her in no uncertain terms that her behavior was unacceptable. Where her choices imposed on me or my authority of my children, I definitely expected certain behavior from her. Not because I expected her to conform to my expectations, but because she doesn't have the right to endanger or impose upon others just because she is mentally ill.

 

As far as your situation goes, I can't imagine trying to dictate how happy someone should be. :confused: How is that even measured?? Are you supposed to produce a certain number of smiles per hour? No one can dictate medication either, although I could imagine situations where family members might express concern when they observe side effects or worsening behavior as a result of new/changing medication. However, to simply demand that someone stop taking medication seems extreme and potentially dangerous to me without there being some serious reason to be concerned that the medication was having unintended effects.

 

If it is the family member I'm imagining, then I can see how the other two complaints could be seen in his mind as something that does affect him. I can see how that would seem unreasonable from your perspective. My opinion tends to fall on your side, but considering the closeness of the relationship it may be something that needs to be addressed in counseling. I'm sorry you're struggling.:grouphug:

[NASDAQ]

I think people with mental illness need to do their best to treat the people around them respectfully. I think that they need to make a particular effort to communicate with the people closest to them, especially when lapses occur.

 

I don't think what you're describing is reasonable for a _totally healthy_ person. Sleep schedule and general outlook are not the kind of things that adults normally even comment to other adults on. Adults get to determine their own lifestyle choices -- diet, exercise, sleep schedule.

 

Is this your mum? If it is, it sounds like she hasn't fully made the transition into the parent of an adult and not a small child.

 

If it's anyone other than your mum or dad, this person is being very inappropriate.

[KidsHappen]

For example, one relative often engaged in risky dating/sexual behaviors while manic. I felt great concern for the situation, but it was not my place to dictate her dating habits. However, at one point she decided that she was going to introduce my children to one of these men without my consent or knowledge (a man she had met only a few weeks before). I'll spare you the details, but she was being sneaky and dishonest. I told her in no uncertain terms that her behavior was unacceptable. Where her choices imposed on me or my authority of my children, I definitely expected certain behavior from her. Not because I expected her to conform to my expectations, but because she doesn't have the right to endanger or impose upon others just because she is mentally ill.

 

As far as your situation goes, I can't imagine trying to dictate how happy someone should be. :confused: How is that even measured?? Are you supposed to produce a certain number of smiles per hour? No one can dictate medication either, although I could imagine situations where family members might express concern when they observe side effects or worsening behavior as a result of new/changing medication. However, to simply demand that someone stop taking medication seems extreme and potentially dangerous to me without there being some serious reason to be concerned that the medication was having unintended effects.

 

If it is the family member I'm imagining, then I can see how the other two complaints could be seen in his mind as something that does affect him. I can see how that would seem unreasonable from your perspective. My opinion tends to fall on your side, but considering the closeness of the relationship it may be something that needs to be addressed in counseling. I'm sorry you're struggling.:grouphug:

 

There has been no major change in medications lately nor any dramatic changes in behavior that would be of undue concern (no one else in the family seems effected or concerned). That's part of the problem. I feel like I am the same person I have always been but suddenly that's not the person this other person wants me to be. This person doesn't want me to discontinue all of my medication suddenly but would prefer that I wean off of them and not take them at all.

[T'smom]

Hm. I guess people are different, but I have never encountered an angry depressive. It almost seems incompatible with depression.

 

I know what you mean- when I get depressed I don't have the energy to get mad. However, some people do go into a rage. I have several bi-polar people in my family.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Two thoughts -

 

1. Unless this person was your dh and only him, it is absolutely no one else's business whether you take medication or not. And even then, they only get to voice their opinion if medications were to shorten your life span or significantly impact your relationship in some way.

 

2. Depression does often exhibit itself as anger in men.

[KidsHappen]

KidsHappen, I think you owe as much to others as anyone else owes. Meaning, from time to time we sometimes go so far as to fake it to make someone we care about happy. But I suspect, when one has a mental illness that they really are probably trying very hard just to get through the day. So there is a limit to what anyone can do. And a person without an illness will never truly understand that. And we can never truly understand what another person is going through.

 

I remember wanting my mother to be happy. I wanted her to find something that made her content that she could be proud of. What I didn't realize until much later is that she was as content as she was ever going to be. And she was doing something that she was very proud of (being Mom).

 

This is so true and really hits home with me. I try. I am very reserved and stoic and I try very hard to keep my pain to myself but I also try very hard to fake normal the best I can. But because I don't seem outwardly happy people don't seem to realize that I am doing what I really want to do and I am content doing it.

[Unicorn.]

:iagree: that said person seems to be suffering from their own depression, and needs to seek help.

"This person wants me to be happy and cheerful.[/B]" Would he settle for a positive attitude? I can't see how one could force another to be happy and cheerful.. that isn't a choice, it's a matter of is or isn't. And trying to force one's self to be happy and cheerful only leads to more depression for that person, so it has the opposite effect.

 

 

"To have a regular sleep cycle that conforms to the norm and best of all be able to do this without medication." Tell said person that you would love to have a normal sleep cycle w/out medication, but unfortunately, that's not a choice either. My dd and I would love that too. It's not something you have control over.

 

I really think said person needs some counseling. Not only for their own apparent depression, but for some understanding and compassion for you and what you go through every day.

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

[KidsHappen]

I think people with mental illness need to do their best to treat the people around them respectfully. I think that they need to make a particular effort to communicate with the people closest to them, especially when lapses occur.

 

I don't think what you're describing is reasonable for a _totally healthy_ person. Sleep schedule and general outlook are not the kind of things that adults normally even comment to other adults on. Adults get to determine their own lifestyle choices -- diet, exercise, sleep schedule.

 

Is this your mum? If it is, it sounds like she hasn't fully made the transition into the parent of an adult and not a small child.

 

If it's anyone other than your mum or dad, this person is being very inappropriate.

 

 

There have been no lapses of the kind typical of bi-polar people. On the spectrum of bi-polar even my most manic phases are very controlled as far as behavior is concerned. Mostly I suffer from extreme aggitation, irritability, insomnia and sometimes extreme house cleaning and projects. I do suffer from some mild hallucinations but no delusions. I haven't been manic in quite awhile though. As a matter of fact, I have been more balanced than normal for the past month or two. This person is not a parent but is a person intimately involved in my life.

[mom2bbj]

Just wondering if this person is close enough to you to differentiate "manic" from "happy". Many people think manic behavior is more "normal" and anything else is you being depressed/sad. You learn alot about yourself when you have learn to balance your moods, most people never even think about it.

 

Also, a content bio-polar person is a HAPPY person, no matter what other "think" you should be.

 

Wishing continued success with your treatment.

 

Vickie

Edited April 11, 2012 by mom2bbj
typo

[Michelle in AL]

Oh gosh, by all means, don't wean off your meds, but I know you know better than that.

 

Where you more "Exciting, risk-taking" before meds? If so, does the other person think that getting this element back could bring more excitement into the relationship?

 

If I'm right about the above, I went through something similar with my dh who wanted me to basically regress back to teen yrs and party with him again. No, nada, not going to happen. I grew up for a reason. I think it was part of a mid life crisis.

 

On the other hand, living with someone with depression is hard. I say this as having been the one depressed at times and from being married to an untreated depressed person. Once depression is properly treated, relationships can grow and move forward, but I know you know that too, and it sounds like you are doing all you can do to treat yours.

[goldberry]

I think I would try to determine the motive behind the desire for you to be happy, so that possibly you could address the real issue.

 

It is because the person doesn't want to deal with how your perceived unhappiness affects them? Is it because they feel some kind of lack in themselves that they can't "make you happy"? Or because they feel sad for you and can't understand how you could be "ok" with it?

 

If #1, that's a selfish issue they need to address, and decide if they are really committed to being in your life. By saying "selfish", I don't mean wrong/bad (I'm sure there's a better word there), but I mean if you are already doing all you can, it's their issue. Only they can decide what is workable for them in a relationship.

 

If #2, that's an emotional issue of their own that they need help with.

 

If #3, perhaps better communication from you about how you deal with it, and that you really are "ok" with where you are, still able to enjoy life, etc.

 

But no, you should not have to pretend to be happy to get along with those closest to you. And someone that cares about you should definitely not pressure you about medication. I think the only people who do that are lucky enough to never have really needed meds.

[Starr]

I think said person has to find ways to deal with discontent other than trying to fix you. When patterns change and people start to do better from any illness sometimes others close to them don't know how to adjust. One would think they would be happy that you are stable but then they might be used to the instability. It's crazy to go off of your meds. You can't do that for someone else, you have to take care of yourself. :grouphug:

[KidsHappen]

I remember a conversation I had with my mom shortly before she died (she was young...49). I was stunned that she said she still heard voices, experienced hallucinations, etc. on a very regular basis. She never let on. She said she got good at realizing when things were real and when they were not, but that she still suffered all the time. I could just kick myself because I asked for more than that from time to time. What I didn't realize was just how hard she was trying and how selfless she was. Being in the shoes of the other person I can only say that it's impossible to understand what you go through. Maybe my mother should have talked more often about how she felt and what was going on in her mind.

 

I know another person whose hallucinations are much worse than mine but she had them from such a young age that she was pretty much going through puberty before she realized that not everyone experienced the same thing. She thought that was normal. I think she still has the same hallucinations but based on experience and interacting with other people she can pretty much tell what is real and what is not. I will sometimes ask if others hear of see something that I do and if they do not I just accept that it must not be real. On top of this, I have migraine with a full predromal phase complete with visual aura, smells, sounds, etc. I also take a med that effects my temperal lobe and therefore my memory. I have large blank spots in my memory but what I do remember I remember clearly. When sharing with others it seems that they believe I make things out to be worse than they are when if fact just the opposite is true. Eventually you just get tired of trying to make people understand something that they cannot.

[joannqn]

You cannot change who you are. It sounds like you are doing the best that you can with the guidance of your doctor and meds. It would be foolish to try to change yourself or go off of medications that you need to function. Attempting either could (most likely) lead to a very negative outcome. At the very least, you'll likely go into a depression because you "can't" be good enough for the other person. Trying to please others to this extent is never good. Don't try it.

 

A healthy response would be to lay down some boundaries. I'm doing what is best for my health and it isn't going to change. Please accept me as I am.

 

You probably already know this, but when someone is experiencing depression, often the first thing they do is blame everyone around them for their sudden discontent. I am an angry depressive, when I am down (and not medicating) everyone else is just doing something wrong to make my life miserable.

 

I am the same way. I keep a very close watch for depression in myself because of it.

[MinivanMom]

I say this very, very gently based on what I suspect the relationship to be . . . Is it possible that he has been bothered by these behaviors for some time, but has been keeping it to himself? Maybe it has always bothered him, but he's only now reaching the breaking point. If that were the case, then it would feel out of the blue to you, but not to him.

 

What is his reasoning behind wanting you to wean off the medication? Is he thinking that the medication is causing problems or that being medication free would make you happier?

 

Just wondering if this person is close enough to you to differentiate "manic" from "happy". Many people think manic behavior is more "normal" and anything else is you being depressed/sad. You learn alot about yourself when you have learn to balance your moods, most people never even think about it.

 

Also, a content bio-polar person is a HAPPY person, no matter what other "think" you should be.

 

Wishing continued success with your treatment.

 

Vickie

 

:iagree:

 

I think it can even be hard for people who are very close to tell what is normal. Manic can be much more pleasant to deal with. I know that sounds selfish, but it is often true. Manic seems so happy and full of energy and self-sufficient and it requires less of you as a family member. It can be easy to mistakenly assume that the manic is normal and anything else is down. Is that possibly what is happening here?

[KidsHappen]

Where you more "Exciting, risk-taking" before meds? If so, does the other person think that getting this element back could bring more excitement into the relationship?

 

Yes, I think that this is a great deal of the issue. I didn't start medication until late 30's and only then for the sake of my children. Perhaps once they are grown (my children not this person) and gone I will reconsider medication if I am still able to make those decisions.

[KidsHappen]

I was initially going to say no way is it hard to notice a difference. But duh...oh yeah, if you are close to someone it is hard. When my dad would go on a high it sometimes took months on end of strange behavior culminating in some extreme breaking point before we noticed. Then we'd look back and wonder why we didn't see it. People on a high can be pretty freakin awesome on the one hand.

 

Hypomania can feel pretty freakin' awesome and you never want it to end. Everything is rosy and bright in the world. You are full of love and excitement and the feeling that you can do anything. I think that perhaps other people enjoy it just as much as the bi-polar person and don't really notice until full on mania has hit. My hubby can usually tell it is coming a few days before I can but I am not sure that it causes much concern until the inevitable crash comes. It is hard for me to tell. I seem to have a lot of insight into myself but not so much other people.

[Sneezyone]

I could have written your post. I'm not bipolar (my sister is) but I've always suffered from depression and insominia. So mostly I'm here to offer hugs and perhaps gather a few suggestions for myself.

 

:grouphug:

[KidsHappen]

I think I would try to determine the motive behind the desire for you to be happy, so that possibly you could address the real issue.

 

It is because the person doesn't want to deal with how your perceived unhappiness affects them? Is it because they feel some kind of lack in themselves that they can't "make you happy"? Or because they feel sad for you and can't understand how you could be "ok" with it?

 

Oh, that is the million dollar question. If I knew the answer to this I might have some idea how to proceed. Communication has not been our strong point lately. Lately we seem to be incapable of understanding each other at all. This happens periodically for reasons I have yet to figure out. Sometimes this person just decides that I am displeased with them when I honestly am not. This of course causes friction. If I could figure out what I am doing that makes them feel that way then perhaps I could work on it but they don't seem to be able to communicate it to me in a way that I can understand.

[NASDAQ]

I don't think I totally understand what you mean with this.

 

It seems to me like the person should know KidsHappen by now. She has had this illness for a long time. Her behaviors are nothing new. And if she is exerting all of what she has into functioning on a daily basis then asking for more is asking too much. It's not a matter of anyone being disrespectful.

 

I'm answering the general question as to what the mentally ill owe those around them. The first part is basically what anyone owes his close associates. The second is a particular burden of mental illness: I think it requires sufferers to pay more attention to communicating their mental states and that which might affect them, such as medication changes.

[KidsHappen]

Growing up with people who have mental illnesses, I thought my parent's behavior was totally normal. I had no idea.

 

I often thought about writing a book about my experiences (because I see lots of books like that), but then I think...what's there to say. :D

 

One cool thing is that my dad has not had any episodes of any kind for 10 years now. It seems as he has gotten older and is now basically retired (far less stress) he is doing so well. There are more/better drugs out there too.

 

Bi-polars generally tend to improve with age making me one of the few that actually looks forward to getting old. :001_smile:

[Trilliums]

I wonder to what degree you actually could change.

 

To me, it sounds as though said individual is not fully accepting your medical condition. They may even be ... Grieving the perceived loss of a relationship with a non-mentally ill person. I think it can be surprisingly difficult for a non-mentally ill person to accept the limitations of the mentally ill person.

 

I suspect people with family members suffering from a variety of mental illnesses, general illnesses, LDs, autism, etc. need to process through this grief. It can still be needed even after decades if a relationship.

[Joanne]

Hm. I guess people are different, but I have never encountered an angry depressive. It almost seems incompatible with depression.

 

Anger is actually one of the clinical symptoms, especially in men.

[Joanne]

I would encourage the person to begin excellent *self*care. And I would suggest that the person become educated on your mental illness. The reason you take meds is because your body is wonked out. Wonked out bodies need meds.

 

"Happy" and "cheeful" is not part of your make up and not something you can will into being.

 

I would also try to find out if there are things I could do, specifically, that would function to make them more pleased to be in relationship with me. I'd be willing to work towards change for that list, but not the list in the OP.

[Tammyla]

:grouphug: That sounds so wrong...I wonder how that person would respond if you ask him to just the opposite of all those things?

 

Honestly, it sounds like you are working very hard to manage the BP...Could he need some help with stress/depression?

 

Many people try to change a loved one when they themselves need help or to change.:grouphug: