Pardon me while I cry.....<math and my kids.....>

[Mommyfaithe]

:confused:....

 

They just don't get it.....

 

I have drilled facts since they were babies...I have used every manipulative under the sun.....I have explained, demonstrated, played, fact cards,

 

Now my dd is 13.....and I just spent an hour explaining integers, and positive/negative numbers...and demonstrated....and drew number lines, thermometers, credit card/ bank accounts....and all I get is.....:001_huh:

 

I think she needs to be totally remediated....

 

For those who do not even teach math until kids are older, where do I begin to begin with her and not make her feel like a doofus?

 

And to you mathy, STEM people, don't be too hard...this kid reads the Illiad for fun, and has been memorizing Shakespeare since she could speak. And, this is NOT for lack of doing arithmetic and math daily.....since she was 4!!! @ at least an hour a day. She is LOST!!!!!!

 

I don't know HOW to help her beyond going back to the beginning....

 

Is there a math book we can use over the summer to at least get her up to Pre-Algebra??? She will be starting 9th grade in the fall....homeschool....and she will not be going into a STEM major....she is artsy....and wants to be an editor.

 

HELP!!!!

[jennynd]

when I taught DS neg number. I asked him to think Darth Vader and Luke in star wars. postive is the good guy, neg is the bad guy. So, multi/divide means darth vader change from Anikin to Darth vader and vise versa. and minus means darth vader fighting luke. plus means making friends

DS got a kick out of it and learned it really quick. Just an idea..:grouphug:

[PollyOR]

You might want to look at Learn Math Fast. I have not used it but one of our board members has. Here is her review.

[mommymilkies]

Which math program are you using? Singapore works fantastic for my VS learner and my Visual but NOT spatial learner. They floundered until we switched back to SM and I read Liping Ma.

[SilverMoon]

Lial's BCM?

[Supertechmom]

Does she get "lost" in other ways? Mixes up directions, goes to retrieve an item and then comes back with something different? Has the absent minded professor syndrome? Spelling okay?

 

Reason I ask is my son can not memorize math facts. To the point we just no longer bother with trying. He has auditory processing disorder and the two signs we were given was inability to master math facts and spell easily for his particular subset along with being lost on a different page in most things done orally.

 

Once we discovered some of this was just impossible, I told him he just had to get them right and I couldn't help him figure out how because I didn't understand the way his brain worked. He would have to look at every thing I gave him and tell me what made sense so I could know what direction to go. He's learned to skip count very fast, has learned to jump hop on the number line in his head quickly to remember how pos/neg goes. And most of the techniques he's using are in miquin books. Those helped him tremendously! But, I didn't find a traditional source. I just have many many math books that cover everything. We haul them out regularly to discover which technique, method clicks. It makes for a long math session some days.

 

Wish I had better help for ya!:grouphug:

[crazyfordlr]

I don't know enough about the program to teach you how to use it, but our educational therapist used Making Math Real when working w/our older dd. The biggest drawback is there's no written curriculum to follow. The creator only gives seminars, expensive seminars. Maybe there's someone in your area that knows MMR and could tutor you and/or your children for a little while?

 

ETA: like the pp, our odd has Auditory Processing Disorder and could not remember math facts or spell (still can't, will be working on this next.)

[Karen in CO]

I'd try something completely different such as RS Geometry for now. Have you tried Fred with her? She just might be a Fred kinda girl.

[Hunter]

Do you have a computer older than Windows 7? Download a FREE version of Basic College Math. Stop trying to catch her up, and just drill each activity until she understands it. This is a "college" text so removes the stigma of being "behind".

 

Some kids just need more time. Compacting seldom works for remediation. Instead these kids need MORE practice, not less. Their progress is SLOWER not faster than normal.

 

As well as backing up and reviewing, you need to plan for a SLOWER pace through the new material.

 

It is the NORM, not a rarity for children not to be able to keep up with the general college prep math scope and sequence. There are many studies that say many children are not developmentally ready. Just like some boys are not developmentally ready to read until 7 or 8, MANY children are not ready for pre algebra until after puberty. And many of these same children will not be ready for the 2nd half of algebra 1 until about 17.

 

The Aufmann computer tutors are antiquated software, but they still work as well as they did back in the 90s. Textbooks to supplement them are available for just pennies; 1/2 the answers are in the back. The software includes a TON of different TYPES of word problems and then generates UNLIMITED examples. For many struggling students, the word problems EASE their understanding, instead of being more difficult.

[redsquirrel]

Maybe some time with the 'key to' series. There is also 'jump math'. It has been hailed as a program for kids who were totally lost. I think it is super incremental. I have never used it, though.

 

Jump math has (or had) a website and lots looked free and there was also stuff for sale. I know for older kids, they suggest starting with their fractions book.

 

Oh wait, Here:

 

http://www.jumpmath1.org/introductory_unit

 

It looks like this is free to print out. There is some for years 3/4 and 5/6. It looks like there is a teacher manual. I think they revamped their books and put the old ones up for free? I don't know.

 

ETA: I was your kid. I worked so darn hard in math but made no headway. I can now see I just needed to get older. I was zooming ahead in language studies but lagged behind in math. In a perfect world I would have been able to start algebra at 18. I could have done it by then.

Edited March 30, 2012 by redsquirrel

[momma2three]

Have you looked at JUMP math? It's supposed to be really great for kids who need to catch up. I read the guy's book and it was very interesting.

[usetoschool]

Maybe you have already read "Why Kids Hate School" by Dan Willingham? If not, I would suggest that instead of a different program. The title is kind of deceiving because it isn't really about hating school but about how your brain works and how you learn. It helped me take the stress out of learning for one girl I was tutoring and she was able to pick things up much more quickly.

 

The bottom line was that if kids are stressed over the subject (or anything really) they just can't learn; their brains just won't store the information.

 

Maybe not useful but thought I would mention it just in case, since she is obviously quite capable of learning other things that she loves and make her happy.

[deeinfl]

I agree with using Lial's BCM, or Jump Math. I also agree with not trying to catch her up, but instead making sure she shows complete mastery of each concept before moving on.

 

I have noticed that when you have a student who typically achieves in reading, literature, and writing, they don't do as well in mathematics. At least that's been the case with my four children. The two that are real writers struggle with math; the two that aren't that great at writing, were very successful with math and science. Just an observation, not a total truth...:D

 

Blessings!

 

Dee

[Lizzie in Ma]

Faithe can she go through Khan Academy's stuff?

[sewgirlie]

:grouphug: Just wanted to let you know we're right there with you. My 7th grader will be doing Lial's BCM in the Fall.

[SunnyDays]

No ideas for you, but I just wanted to give you a hug. :grouphug:

[Crimson Wife]

Liping Ma has a remedial math curriculum called Knowing Math. I haven't personally seen it, but it's something I would personally try with a struggling student.

[3andme]

I would also highly recommend these Danica McKellar books especially for a girl. While it's not a comprehensive math program, she has some great analogies which may really hit home. The books are engaging and fun and might be a good non-stressful way to break up your regular math program.

 

My favorite analogy from her books is about the distributive property. She basically equates it to a party where each host must greet each guest, in turn, to make it a good party i.e. you must multiply each term by all the other terms. I've found this far simpler and more effective than teaching the traditional FOIL acronym. Whenever my ds forgets to distribute or does it incorrectly, I just mention the word "party" and he gets it right away. She has a good analogy for negative and positive numbers too in the Pre-algebra book I think.

[RootAnn]

No ideas for you, but I just wanted to give you a hug. :grouphug:

 

:iagree: :grouphug:

[Mommyfaithe]

I'd try something completely different such as RS Geometry for now. Have you tried Fred with her? She just might be a Fred kinda girl.

 

She loves Fred. All my kids do.

 

Me too. Fred Rocks!

:D

 

RS???? I am not sure what that stands for...Right Start?? What is weird is this kid is a whiz at geometry so far. She just "gets" it. Must be the artist in her.

Edited March 30, 2012 by Mommyfaithe

[Mommyfaithe]

when I taught DS neg number. I asked him to think Darth Vader and Luke in star wars. postive is the good guy, neg is the bad guy. So, multi/divide means darth vader change from Anikin to Darth vader and vise versa. and minus means darth vader fighting luke. plus means making friends

DS got a kick out of it and learned it really quick. Just an idea..:grouphug:

 

This is cool.....maybe I can do this with Percy Jackson characters?? Lol. She just might get it:D

[Deee]

My son has to work hard in maths - language arts comes very easily to him. One thing I noticed very early on was that he expected maths to come as easily to him as reading and spelling did. He really wasn't willing to work at it. I'm not saying you daughter is like this, but once I caught on to this and could explain to him that most people worked for their knowledge, his maths started to turn around. He still struggles with basic fact memorisation and often uses a multiplication chart. Pattern recognition has come very slowly - there are slight glimmers of it this year. He's 11. For him, it really does seem to be a maturity thing.

 

We basically cover everything two or three times. First I teach it, then we practice it (and reteach it) using Key to.... or similar, then we do it all again using LOF (he loves Fred and this really has turned maths around for us). Then we practice it using Making Math Meaningful (a Waldorf maths curriculum). And then he gets it! Its been enormously frustrating for me: I am a scientist, as is my husband. I can't believe his staggering lack of pattern recognition! My son thinks like my mother, a Latin Honours student and the product of a good classical education in the 1950s:tongue_smilie:

 

You could try a few Waldorf tricks. For example, negative numbers are learnt in the same block as money. Rather than using a number line, work with debt and credit. Its much more real and applicable to a teenagers life. Waldorf traditionally doesn't cover negative numbers until high school because kids aren't ready for it. We don't cover them until high school in Australia either, and we make it all the way through Calculus, trig and probability theory before the end of year 12, so it doesn't seem to slow anyone down.

 

MEP also has a high school section: the yrs 7-9 are supposed to be for kids who didn't use MEP in primary. Might be another thing to try and won't feel remedial because it isn't!

Hope this helps

D

[Mommyfaithe]

You might want to look at Learn Math Fast. I have not used it but one of our board members has. Here is her review.

 

Thanks!! Will check it out.

[Mommyfaithe]

Which math program are you using? Singapore works fantastic for my VS learner and my Visual but NOT spatial learner. They floundered until we switched back to SM and I read Liping Ma.

 

We use CLE for her with Life of Fred...

She used Miquon and BJU Press in grades 1-5....then we switched over to CLE....we used lots of supplements, math games......ahhhhhh........all sorts of stuff.

[Mommyfaithe]

My son has to work hard in maths - language arts comes very easily to him. One thing I noticed very early on was that he expected maths to come as easily to him as reading and spelling did. He really wasn't willing to work at it. I'm not saying you daughter is like this, but once I caught on to this and could explain to him that most people worked for their knowledge, his maths started to turn around. He still struggles with basic fact memorisation and often uses a multiplication chart. Pattern recognition has come very slowly - there are slight glimmers of it this year. He's 11. For him, it really does seem to be a maturity thing.

 

We basically cover everything two or three times. First I teach it, then we practice it (and reteach it) using Key to.... or similar, then we do it all again using LOF (he loves Fred and this really has turned maths around for us). Then we practice it using Making Math Meaningful (a Waldorf maths curriculum). And then he gets it! Its been enormously frustrating for me: I am a scientist, as is my husband. I can't believe his staggering lack of pattern recognition! My son thinks like my mother, a Latin Honours student and the product of a good classical education in the 1950s:tongue_smilie:

 

You could try a few Waldorf tricks. For example, negative numbers are learnt in the same block as money. Rather than using a number line, work with debt and credit. Its much more real and applicable to a teenagers life. Waldorf traditionally doesn't cover negative numbers until high school because kids aren't ready for it. We don't cover them until high school in Australia either, and we make it all the way through Calculus, trig and probability theory before the end of year 12, so it doesn't seem to slow anyone down.

 

MEP also has a high school section: the yrs 7-9 are supposed to be for kids who didn't use MEP in primary. Might be another thing to try and won't feel remedial because it isn't!

Hope this helps

D

 

Thanks for your reply. This child did not find learning to read or spelling easy. Nor is vocabulary, but she is a hard worker because she wants to be in these areas. Language arts thrills her:D.....but math, she would rather poke out her own eyes....and not because of impatient teaching, or frustration on my part. All of my kids struggled with math...I just figured that is how it is with us....:tongue_smilie:But she puts us all to:001_huh:

 

I will check out MEP. I used some of the lower levels with her when she was little. Sheeesh, I think I used'em all.....

[Mommyfaithe]

Lial's BCM?

 

Thanks...I will check it out.

[Mommyfaithe]

Does she get "lost" in other ways? Mixes up directions, goes to retrieve an item and then comes back with something different? Has the absent minded professor syndrome? Spelling okay?

 

Reason I ask is my son can not memorize math facts. To the point we just no longer bother with trying. He has auditory processing disorder and the two signs we were given was inability to master math facts and spell easily for his particular subset along with being lost on a different page in most things done orally.

 

Once we discovered some of this was just impossible, I told him he just had to get them right and I couldn't help him figure out how because I didn't understand the way his brain worked. He would have to look at every thing I gave him and tell me what made sense so I could know what direction to go. He's learned to skip count very fast, has learned to jump hop on the number line in his head quickly to remember how pos/neg goes. And most of the techniques he's using are in miquin books. Those helped him tremendously! But, I didn't find a traditional source. I just have many many math books that cover everything. We haul them out regularly to discover which technique, method clicks. It makes for a long math session some days.

 

Wish I had better help for ya!:grouphug:

 

Yep...that describes her to a tee. I am not so worried about her memorizing facts as I am her understanding concepts. She just doesn't get it....at.all.

 

Every time I think we made some progress,.....nope. Nada......oy!!

[Mommyfaithe]

Do you have a computer older than Windows 7? Download a FREE version of Basic College Math. Stop trying to catch her up, and just drill each activity until she understands it. This is a "college" text so removes the stigma of being "behind".

 

Some kids just need more time. Compacting seldom works for remediation. Instead these kids need MORE practice, not less. Their progress is SLOWER not faster than normal.

 

As well as backing up and reviewing, you need to plan for a SLOWER pace through the new material.

 

It is the NORM, not a rarity for children not to be able to keep up with the general college prep math scope and sequence. There are many studies that say many children are not developmentally ready. Just like some boys are not developmentally ready to read until 7 or 8, MANY children are not ready for pre algebra until after puberty. And many of these same children will not be ready for the 2nd half of algebra 1 until about 17.

 

The Aufmann computer tutors are antiquated software, but they still work as well as they did back in the 90s. Textbooks to supplement them are available for just pennies; 1/2 the answers are in the back. The software includes a TON of different TYPES of word problems and then generates UNLIMITED examples. For many struggling students, the word problems EASE their understanding, instead of being more difficult.

 

THANK YOU!!! She is an immature learner, and always has been. I can only push so hard, then our relationship becomes threatened. I am not willing to go there...especially when I think she definitely need more....and slower. I do have old computers. A's a matter of fact, they are all old:tongue_smilie:

I will check this out...and a Lial's book should be cheap enough.

 

We have lots of math books!

Lol.

[Mommyfaithe]

Have you looked at JUMP math? It's supposed to be really great for kids who need to catch up. I read the guy's book and it was very interesting.

 

I will check it out. Thanks for the suggestion!

[Mommyfaithe]

Maybe some time with the 'key to' series. There is also 'jump math'. It has been hailed as a program for kids who were totally lost. I think it is super incremental. I have never used it, though.

 

Jump math has (or had) a website and lots looked free and there was also stuff for sale. I know for older kids, they suggest starting with their fractions book.

 

Oh wait, Here:

 

http://www.jumpmath1.org/introductory_unit

 

It looks like this is free to print out. There is some for years 3/4 and 5/6. It looks like there is a teacher manual. I think they revamped their books and put the old ones up for free? I don't know.

 

ETA: I was your kid. I worked so darn hard in math but made no headway. I can now see I just needed to get older. I was zooming ahead in language studies but lagged behind in math. In a perfect world I would have been able to start algebra at 18. I could have done it by then.

 

Thanks for the suggestions and the link.

 

I was that kid too. I taught myself Algebra when I was 35 and had to teach my oldest dd. I spent a summer fascinated! I had failed Alg. 2 in High School, so I felt like a doofus.

I am very patient, because I know how it feel to just.not.get.it. I would like her to get through this without feeling stupid...and possibly learning to love math. That is my goal anyway.

[Mommyfaithe]

Maybe you have already read "Why Kids Hate School" by Dan Willingham? If not, I would suggest that instead of a different program. The title is kind of deceiving because it isn't really about hating school but about how your brain works and how you learn. It helped me take the stress out of learning for one girl I was tutoring and she was able to pick things up much more quickly.

 

The bottom line was that if kids are stressed over the subject (or anything really) they just can't learn; their brains just won't store the information.

 

Maybe not useful but thought I would mention it just in case, since she is obviously quite capable of learning other things that she loves and make her happy.

 

On order from the library. THANKS!!!

[Mommyfaithe]

I agree with using Lial's BCM, or Jump Math. I also agree with not trying to catch her up, but instead making sure she shows complete mastery of each concept before moving on.

 

I have noticed that when you have a student who typically achieves in reading, literature, and writing, they don't do as well in mathematics. At least that's been the case with my four children. The two that are real writers struggle with math; the two that aren't that great at writing, were very successful with math and science. Just an observation, not a total truth...:D

 

Blessings!

 

Dee

Thanks Dee. I have found that with my kids too. It is just very frustrating for HER....and I don't want her to give up.

[Mommyfaithe]

Faithe can she go through Khan Academy's stuff?

 

She could.....but would she....lol.

 

Is KHAN easy to navigate? I need to check that out this weekend. Hmmmmmmm.

[Mommyfaithe]

:grouphug: Just wanted to let you know we're right there with you. My 7th grader will be doing Lial's BCM in the Fall.

 

:grouphug:

[Mommyfaithe]

No ideas for you, but I just wanted to give you a hug. :grouphug:

 

Thanks! I needed some of those today. :grouphug:

[Mommyfaithe]

OOOH!!!! LOOK WHAT I FIGURED OUT!!!!!

 

Liping Ma has a remedial math curriculum called Knowing Math. I haven't personally seen it, but it's something I would personally try with a struggling student.

 

I read Ma's Teaching & Knowing Math. I will check out her program. She is a smart cookie.:D

 

I would also highly recommend these Danica McKellar books especially for a girl. While it's not a comprehensive math program, she has some great analogies which may really hit home. The books are engaging and fun and might be a good non-stressful way to break up your regular math program.

 

My favorite analogy from her books is about the distributive property. She basically equates it to a party where each host must greet each guest, in turn, to make it a good party i.e. you must multiply each term by all the other terms. I've found this far simpler and more effective than teaching the traditional FOIL acronym. Whenever my ds forgets to distribute or does it incorrectly, I just mention the word "party" and he gets it right away. She has a good analogy for negative and positive numbers too in the Pre-algebra book I think.

 

I will see if the Library has this one. Looks fun for me to read!

 

Use kinesthetic also for negative numbers. Don't go abstract to the worksheet until she fully understands the number line and the operation.

 

Play the stairs game if you have stairs. She stands on a stair...you call out an integer and she must go up for a positive integer and down for a negative integer according to your agreement on the value of each step. (start with one step=1, but do try one step=2, one step =10 etc). If you don't have a stair, chalk a number line outdoors or mark it on a hallway, whatever you have.

 

For money, Play Jeopardy. Let someone that understands scorekeep at first, so contestants go in to the negative numbers and back again and get used to the concept. Then change scorekeepers.

 

 

For practice once the concept is across, play marble arches. Cut a cereal box so it has several arches. Pen a small integer number above each arch . Each player shoots two marbles toward the goal. They score the sum of the numbers above the arches the marbles entered using number line if needed. For ex:

http://tlc dot howstuffworks dot com /family/marble-games=for-kids1/htm

 

thanks for the ideas! This looks fun...and I forgot about the stair thing. I will try that one Monday!

[ktgrok]

Maybe Kahn Academy, starting at the beginning? It certainly isn't babyish, and doesn't have grade levels or anything.

[Hunter]

THANK YOU!!! She is an immature learner, and always has been. I can only push so hard, then our relationship becomes threatened. I am not willing to go there...especially when I think she definitely need more....and slower. I do have old computers. A's a matter of fact, they are all old:tongue_smilie:

I will check this out...and a Lial's book should be cheap enough.

 

We have lots of math books!

Lol.

 

Aufmann books are similar to Lial's, and in my opinion they are superior. I like the huge emphasis on the word problems. As I said I think they make it EASIER, instead of harder, when they are taught with software than generates an unlimited number of them. They are effective in the way stories and manipulative work. Also Aufmann is cheaper, because the homeschool crowd had never believed me that they are better, so are not scooping them all up :-) Aufmann was what was at all of our yard sales, because it was what our local junior colleges used instead of Lial's. The junior college math placement tests were based on Aufmann, so obviously my boys scored well on those tests.

 

I've always collected math books too, and taught my boys to use them like any other reference book. I stored them on the same bookcase as the encyclopedia and other reference books.

[Karen in CO]

She loves Fred. All my kids do.

 

Me too. Fred Rocks!

:D

 

RS???? I am not sure what that stands for...Right Start?? What is weird is this kid is a whiz at geometry so far. She just "gets" it. Must be the artist in her.

Yep Right Start. So she's a whiz at geometry and loves Fred? Are you sure she has a math problem? Why don't you just continue on in Fred and be happy?

[Mommyfaithe]

Yep Right Start. So she's a whiz at geometry and loves Fred? Are you sure she has a math problem? Why don't you just continue on in Fred and be happy?

 

Because that would be too easy. You know me better than that! :D

 

I just feel Fred does not have enough practice. She forgets easily.....

[Barb_]

If you decide to remediate, you should give ALEKS a shot. Here's a link to a two month free trial:

 

http://www.aleks.com/webform/bn1-154

 

I wouldn't use it for a main curriculum because there isn't enough practice, IMO. But it's great for filling in holes or for introducing new material because the computer only gives the student what she hasn't mastered.

[sassenach]

when I taught DS neg number. I asked him to think Darth Vader and Luke in star wars. postive is the good guy, neg is the bad guy. So, multi/divide means darth vader change from Anikin to Darth vader and vise versa. and minus means darth vader fighting luke. plus means making friends

DS got a kick out of it and learned it really quick. Just an idea..:grouphug:

 

Stowing that little gem away for ds9 in a few years...

[SilverMoon]

Lial's BCM?

 

Thanks...I will check it out.

 

Here's an old thread that will make it easy for you. The TOC is listed for both Lial's BCM and their prealgebra book, and there are Amazon links.

[Heathermomster]

There's a book I always recommend called How the Brain Learns Mathematics by Sousa. This book has revolutionized the way I view and teach math to my son.

[redsquirrel]

You know, I keep wondering if truly hands on might help. Maybe consider adding in something like "Get A Grip" by TOPS Science? It is all about quantity. It comes all ready to go out of the box. It is all hands on and exploratory, but non-threatening because it uses lentils and jars etc.

 

I am going to be using their Math Lab unit as part of my older son's 'pre-algebra' year.

[Mommyfaithe]

If you decide to remediate, you should give ALEKS a shot. Here's a link to a two month free trial:

 

http://www.aleks.com/webform/bn1-154

 

I wouldn't use it for a main curriculum because there isn't enough practice, IMO. But it's great for filling in holes or for introducing new material because the computer only gives the student what she hasn't mastered.

Thanks!! I forgot about ALEKS. Dd might like that...and it could help point out gaps.

Here's an old thread that will make it easy for you. The TOC is listed for both Lial's BCM and their prealgebra book, and there are Amazon links.

 

Thanks!

 

There's a book I always recommend called How the Brain Learns Mathematics by Sousa. This book has revolutionized the way I view and teach math to my son.

 

I will see if the library has this one. Our library system is pretty good. Thanks for the rec.

 

You know, I keep wondering if truly hands on might help. Maybe consider adding in something like "Get A Grip" by TOPS Science? It is all about quantity. It comes all ready to go out of the box. It is all hands on and exploratory, but non-threatening because it uses lentils and jars etc.

 

I am going to be using their Math Lab unit as part of my older son's 'pre-algebra' year.

 

This sounds fun and might be good for all my kiddoes. Thanks!!