4 year old complaining about doing schoolwork

[pehp]

My ds is 4.5. We do simple phonics and MUS primer 5 days a week, and we keep it short, sweet and fun. We read aloud and take walks. We have fun!

 

I wouldn't force the issue with a child this age. We want to build a relationship that is respectful and relaxed (will benefit us down the road). Trying to force a 4yo to 'do school' is a battle I have no wish to fight.

 

We plan to do CC next year for social/community building reasons. We will not be doing the memory work unless my son is interested in it.

 

Thisis the age, Imo, to develop habits and a good rapport. Start with math and phonics and keep things happy!!

[Elizabeth in MN]

I'm wondering - does 'CC community' mean 'Classical Conversations' or 'Christian Content'? I'm confused.

[musicianmom]

A little background first. I am NOT a relaxed, better-late-than-early mom. I'm probably a little too intense. I was even more intense when my oldest was four, especially because she showed such promise (already a fluent reader, doing first-grade math, etc.). She has turned out to be gifted, btw, just so you know where I'm coming from.

 

That being said, I visited a CC pre-K class with her when she was 4, and I said No. Way. I thought the memorization work was over the top and totally inappropriate EVEN FOR my extremely precocious child.

 

So, while I understand completely your desire to have your child be part of a group, I think an excellent compromise would be just to play the CD in the car and call it good.

[mom31257]

If he's complaining when you take it out, then yes, it's too much for him.

 

Complaining about chores is different. He has to do those no matter what. It could even be that if the Official School Stuff goes away, he'll quit complaining about everything else, as well.

 

Why does he have to do chores but not what she's requiring of him in school? I think if you set kids up to think they can complain about anything and then it "goes away", you are potentially creating a complainer for life. I think it's more important to teach children to do what is required of them even when it's difficult or not as "fun" as they would like it to be.

 

My dh teaches high school in public school. So many of them complain about the work dh gives them and the fact that he expects classroom discipline and respect such as not talking when someone else is. Part of the problem dh runs into is that there are teachers in the school who let their classrooms have a crazy atmosphere and don't require much work of the students. They come to him and see him as the bad guy because he expects them to learn. Learning is work, and most kids don't want to work.

 

I started teaching my kids when they were two years old. I didn't even know I would be homeschooling some day, but I knew they were capable of learning. I always chose age-appropriate activities, but they were never allowed to leave something once we started. They had to finish, and complaining never changed it.

 

They both read far above grade level, score in the very top percentiles for testing, and are good about completing their work and any chores I give them. I don't think requiring them to do schoolwork during those early years did them any harm.

[eloquacious]

Agreed, at 4 school is optional. I have found that in my home, my kids attitudes can be turned around completely using chocolate chips. Now, understand, I don't ever give them sugar until after dinner normally. But I knew my (now 6 year old) was going to be one who would always just want to play. I decided to sweeten the deal (pun intended) by telling him that if he had a good attitude and did his very best work he can earn 10 chocolate chips a day. It worked! I know it is bribery and seems kind of pathetic but he now loves school and is succeeding at it. It does not require cc's any more but it got him to see doing school as a positive thong right at the beginning. I figured it was better than the clenched teeth feeling we were both getting over the whole issue. I also kept it short and fun. At that age I was more concerned with cultivating a love of learning and a good attitude about school and, by gum, chocolate chips did the trick. I do it with my current 4 year old and it is working too. Of course, they learn that they can't have candy forever but by then, they like school anyway.

 

There is very little a few chocolate chips, gummy bears, or an episode of Super Why cannot accomplish around here. We have a bit of a system for earning these treats, though, and I never force anything.

[Nart]

Why does he have to do chores but not what she's requiring of him in school? I think if you set kids up to think they can complain about anything and then it "goes away", you are potentially creating a complainer for life. I think it's more important to teach children to do what is required of them even when it's difficult or not as "fun" as they would like it to be.

 

My dh teaches high school in public school. So many of them complain about the work dh gives them and the fact that he expects classroom discipline and respect such as not talking when someone else is. Part of the problem dh runs into is that there are teachers in the school who let their classrooms have a crazy atmosphere and don't require much work of the students. They come to him and see him as the bad guy because he expects them to learn. Learning is work, and most kids don't want to work.

 

I started teaching my kids when they were two years old. I didn't even know I would be homeschooling some day, but I knew they were capable of learning. I always chose age-appropriate activities, but they were never allowed to leave something once we started. They had to finish, and complaining never changed it.

 

They both read far above grade level, score in the very top percentiles for testing, and are good about completing their work and any chores I give them. I don't think requiring them to do schoolwork during those early years did them any harm.

 

:iagree: I am puzzled that no many people have really supported doing 10 minutes of structured academics a day out of the 13 hours or so that a four year old is awake if the child is at all reluctant. I read the WTM and my recollection is that the authors encourage phonics for around 10 minutes a day starting around four year old, even for boys. My husband teaches middle school and has the same experience of students not willing to work hard- including students in his gifted English classes.

 

A year ago I started teaching my son who just turned 4 how to read. It started with working on phonemic awareness because he had a speech delay due to ear infections and it was cheaper than speech therapy. The first two months he did not enjoy the 5 to 10 minute lessons. I told him he didn't have to read but he didn't have to watch TV either, so if he read then he got to watch an episode of Mighty Machines. He always chose to complete the reading lesson. By the fourth month he often said he loved to read and would ask me when we could do reading lessons. He struggled, worked hard and had made so much progress learning how to read. He is now so proud of himself. In the end I don't care so much about when he learned to read; I love that he is learning that hard work pays off. I am not familiar with CC, but I would encourage doing something academic for 5 minutes a day to prepare for kindergarten.

[LisaKinVA]

Why does he have to do chores but not what she's requiring of him in school? I think if you set kids up to think they can complain about anything and then it "goes away", you are potentially creating a complainer for life. I think it's more important to teach children to do what is required of them even when it's difficult or not as "fun" as they would like it to be.

 

Nope. Disagreeing here. There is a HUGE difference in developmentally appropriate for young children. Most young children want to learn, when they start putting up walls, it usually means something is wrong, and it is best not to ignore that.

 

Yes, my 5yo complains about picking up her toys... but she does it. She also complains about reading. She tires easily. We've been working on reading since last year. I would watch her read the blends or letters, and she looked like she was having trouble seeing. I took her to the optometrist, she was dx'd with astigmatism. Problem solved... or so I thought. I'm working with her on reading and she is doing the same things WITH her glasses that she was doing without. So.... she still gets "tired" by reading, and complains. I'm pretty sure there is something going on physically, and have made an appointment with a developmental optometrist to figure it out. She wants to learn how to read, but she struggles in ways none of my others did. I do try to stretch her time, but I would be doing her a disservice to force her to read much longer than she is.

 

My 8yo is dysgraphic, so dysgraphic he experiences physical pain when writing. We are working with him on this... thankfully, my oldest son was also mildly dysgraphic, so I was more aware of the symptoms. When we learned the extent of 8ds's problem, we had to use a bit more patience, different accommodations, and time. He's come a long way, the pain is minimized, and he is doing much better, but still behind grade level.

 

My oldest, when he was 4-5 would have a complete melt down whenever I pulled out Saxon Math or 100EZ Lessons. He also begged to learn how to read. But he cried. My mother said the same thing as you did, but I listened to my gut. Something was wrong with my normally compliant, eager to learn child. I switched out the programs and POOF he was excited to be learning to read and doing math. I wasn't teaching him anything by "forcing" him to do that original math or reading program other than learning was torture. After seeing the difference in my child, my mother admitted I had been right to switch. Square pegs...round holes. All the pounding by me in the world was not going to "make" something happen.

 

A 4yo may be ready to learn the song, but may not be ready for a class or the pressure. It may not be developmentally appropriate for him, anymore than a beginning chimes class is appropriate for every 5yo. Some can handle it, and some can't.

 

Teaching a child to swim by throwing them into the deep end (for them) wouldn't be advocated, of that, I'm certain.

 

Lastly, from what I've read, even the Tiger Mom didn't require lots of structured learning from her pre-schoolers. That was saved for later... and became much more demanding. But at 4yo, I believe it was pretty much play-time, coloring, and fun.

[ktgrok]

The difference between chores and school work is one is developmentally appropriate and one isn't. Yes, he can pick up his toys. That's appropriate for a 4 year old. Cleaning the gutters and painting the house is not. This child may be ready for colors/numbers, but not ready for the work of CC, especially because it is actually a kindergarten level and he isn't in kindy yet.

[Joy at Home]

The difference between chores and school work is one is developmentally appropriate and one isn't. Yes, he can pick up his toys. That's appropriate for a 4 year old. Cleaning the gutters and painting the house is not. This child may be ready for colors/numbers, but not ready for the work of CC, especially because it is actually a kindergarten level and he isn't in kindy yet.

 

Absolutely.

 

Lisa

[RoundAbout]

I am a big fan of Playful Parenting. Here's how I sometimes start lessons with my son who just turned 5 years-old:

 

As soon as I pull out the white board I get a big groan from kid "Oh man, I don't WANT to do reading lessons!" To which I reply "Oh don't worry, this isn't a reading lesson its just a note to daddy about you. Don't you dare read it though." I get a big mischievous grin and then another laugh when he reads it because I've written something funny. Then we transition to OPGTR. During the lesson I often do something else silly to keep his attention like read something really wrong and let him catch me, write another note, etc.

 

I'm sure very strict parents would think I'm catering to my child and not instilling proper discipline but it gets the job done, we have fun, and my son is fast becoming an excellent reader for his age.

 

For memory work I do stuff like have him stand on one leg or do a silly pose or jump on the mini-trampoline. Again, it gets the job done.

 

I often have initial resistance because he's only 5. He's not the kind of kid who begs for school or likes workbooks, but once we start having fun he's totally on board.

[RoundAbout]

I am a big fan of Playful Parenting. Here's how I sometimes start lessons with my son who just turned 5 years-old:

 

As soon as I pull out the white board I get a big groan from kid "Oh man, I don't WANT to do reading lessons!" To which I reply "Oh don't worry, this isn't a reading lesson its just a note to daddy about you. Don't you dare read it though." I get a big mischievous grin and then another laugh when he reads it because I've written something funny. Then we transition to OPGTR. During the lesson I often do something else silly to keep his attention like read something really wrong and let him catch me, write another note, etc.

 

I'm sure very strict parents would think I'm catering to my child and not instilling proper discipline but it gets the job done, we have fun, and my son is fast becoming an excellent reader for his age.

 

For memory work I do stuff like have him stand on one leg or do a silly pose or jump on the mini-trampoline. Again, it gets the job done.

 

I often have initial resistance because he's only 5. He's not the kind of kid who begs for school or likes workbooks, but once we start having fun he's totally on board.

[mom31257]

Nope. Disagreeing here. There is a HUGE difference in developmentally appropriate for young children. Most young children want to learn, when they start putting up walls, it usually means something is wrong, and it is best not to ignore that.

 

Yes, my 5yo complains about picking up her toys... but she does it. She also complains about reading. She tires easily. We've been working on reading since last year. I would watch her read the blends or letters, and she looked like she was having trouble seeing. I took her to the optometrist, she was dx'd with astigmatism. Problem solved... or so I thought. I'm working with her on reading and she is doing the same things WITH her glasses that she was doing without. So.... she still gets "tired" by reading, and complains. I'm pretty sure there is something going on physically, and have made an appointment with a developmental optometrist to figure it out. She wants to learn how to read, but she struggles in ways none of my others did. I do try to stretch her time, but I would be doing her a disservice to force her to read much longer than she is.

 

My 8yo is dysgraphic, so dysgraphic he experiences physical pain when writing. We are working with him on this... thankfully, my oldest son was also mildly dysgraphic, so I was more aware of the symptoms. When we learned the extent of 8ds's problem, we had to use a bit more patience, different accommodations, and time. He's come a long way, the pain is minimized, and he is doing much better, but still behind grade level.

 

My oldest, when he was 4-5 would have a complete melt down whenever I pulled out Saxon Math or 100EZ Lessons. He also begged to learn how to read. But he cried. My mother said the same thing as you did, but I listened to my gut. Something was wrong with my normally compliant, eager to learn child. I switched out the programs and POOF he was excited to be learning to read and doing math. I wasn't teaching him anything by "forcing" him to do that original math or reading program other than learning was torture. After seeing the difference in my child, my mother admitted I had been right to switch. Square pegs...round holes. All the pounding by me in the world was not going to "make" something happen.

 

A 4yo may be ready to learn the song, but may not be ready for a class or the pressure. It may not be developmentally appropriate for him, anymore than a beginning chimes class is appropriate for every 5yo. Some can handle it, and some can't.

 

Teaching a child to swim by throwing them into the deep end (for them) wouldn't be advocated, of that, I'm certain.

 

Lastly, from what I've read, even the Tiger Mom didn't require lots of structured learning from her pre-schoolers. That was saved for later... and became much more demanding. But at 4yo, I believe it was pretty much play-time, coloring, and fun.

 

I definitely think that problems potentially causing the complaining should be investigated. You know your children better than anyone else, so going with your gut is what you should do. I've made changes in styles and curricula when I felt something else was the best for my kids, but it was never over complaining about something I knew the child was capable of doing. I think that is the key. Is it a character issue or an academic issue?

 

I was home with the kids and felt that there was plenty of time for the playing and fun along with some academics. They were eager to do it, and honestly, I think starting them as young as I did was part of why it was easy to do school with them. They saw it as part of normal life.

[chepyl]

Thank you all so much for your responses. I think the overwhelming view is to let him be 4 and play as much as he wants. It's just hard because he is my firstborn and I'm not sure how much is too much, too soon.

 

That being said...I don't think I overwork him at all... I mean, it's not like I sit him down for an hour and make him do schoolwork every day. All the stuff in my siggy we tried, but never finished this year. We were doing Saxon K, but that wasn't the format I wanted for preschool - too structured and boring for me since most of the stuff I do with him in everyday life (counting, money, time, etc.). I started OPGTR with him, but that got too difficult, so we just stopped and I continue reading aloud to him.

 

All I make him do is 15 minutes a day of memory work - rote memorization of a history sentence, math facts, sometimes science or latin, if it's easy. He likes the other stuff he does - actually loves HWoT, and enjoys doing the map facts, like states and capitals. That's it! So please don't judge me and think I'm drilling my son endlessly...I'm not. But since he is a part of CC, it is something he is expected to do, and the tutor reviews the info with him in class every week, so he kind of has to know it.

 

My original complaint was that he whines and complains whenever I pull out the schoolwork (Foundations guide). Getting started seems to be the hurdle, because once we start it, he's fine. And like I said before - it's only 15 minutes. And some other posters did acknowledge that happens with their dc as well. That's what I was questioning...and that's where I feel like I'm strict because I tell him he has to do this. But all the previous posts are making me think twice about it. Is this really too much for him? Maybe it is since he's complaining about starting it, but he complains about having to clear the table, or wash his hands before dinner, and he doesn't get out of doing those things.

 

Thanks again for reading and responding!

 

My son learned to read at 4.5, he loved workbook pages and would do 30+ pages at a time. We started K 3 weeks before he turned 5 and started CC at home (no community) this uear just before he turned 6. He has a hard time with some of the.memory work. I know they list it for 4k, but I think you can hold off until first grade. We will complete two full cycles by tue time he is in 6th grade. He will also end up listening in as his younger siblings do it, just as they will listen to him.

 

Last year, the memory work would not have made sense to him. This year he has an understanding of history. It makes a huge difference.

 

If you really want to stick with it, don't pull out the guide. Just play the cd over and over. We play it three times a day, my three year old June the tunes and gets a few words and she is not trying. Just sing and dance and have fun.

 

Also, boys tend to he more kinesthetic learners than girls. My son lays on the ground and rolls around, he dances, he plays with a toy, we got him thinking putty...this helps him focus. Don't make him sit or stand still and do it, it is against most boys natural tendencies. Wait a year to do any seat work, then slowly build time. I will always let my some move when he needs it, it refocuses him, and he has a LONG attention span for a 6 year old.

[Rivka]

My Not-so-humble opinion:

 

Having a 4 year old memorize these things that mean nothing to him and have no context for him is ridiculous.

 

Spend 15 min. memorizing lovely poems, songs, rhymes, *maybe* skip counting and ditch the CC.

 

You could be filling his mind and soul with beautiful, meaningful poetry and images, songs that help his mind develop, culturally meaningful rhymes and stories.

 

Or don't even require it to be memorized. Singing together, reading together, chanting lovely rhymes together--children naturally memorize, but *meaningful* memorization is important to.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

I can't really understand why you would want a 4-year-old (or a 5-year-old, or a 6-year-old) to rote memorize history sentences. What's the point? What's the benefit? Why would you want your kid's first exposure to the fascinating subject of history be rote memorization without any sense of the story behind it?

[Nakia]

Take it from those of us who've been at it a while: Save the fights for when they get to middle school. :D

 

 

 

Seriously, though, I think you've been given good advice. Take the rest of the year off from formal school and just play! You'll be surprised at how much he will mature in just 6-8 months. When he's grown, it won't even matter whether he learned to read at 4 or 9. So try not to fret. :grouphug:

[Haiku]

The difference between chores and school work is one is developmentally appropriate and one isn't. Yes, he can pick up his toys. That's appropriate for a 4 year old. Cleaning the gutters and painting the house is not.

 

Yup.

 

Maturity plays a huge factor here. Emotional maturity, mental maturity, and physical maturity all have bearing on whether a child is ready for structured academics. A parent can be strict and highly academic and still flexible enough to recognize that their plan is not working for their child. Isn't homeschooling all about finding what's right for your child? If you create your preconceived box of what your child's education is supposed to be, and then try to stuff your child into it even when the child protests, you might as well send your kid to school. Schools, also, have a one-size-fits-all mentality.

 

Tara

Edited February 4, 2012 by TaraTheLiberator
I misspelled my own name :/

[Storm Bay]

All I make him do is 15 minutes a day of memory work - rote memorization of a history sentence, math facts, sometimes science or !

 

15 minutes per day may not be unreasonable at all at 4, but doing it all in a row can be too much. If you really are adamant on this, I'd break it up into 3 5 minute times spaced out. I'm teaching piano to a very highly gifted 4.75 yo. The lesson is 15 minutes and he loves it, but even then he doesn't always last the entire time, so I teach him first & his 5.5 yo niece second, since she can last longer than 30 minutes if need be. Both my dd's are extremely advanced in reading, but only one did phonics at age 4; the other started reading later & took off at a later stage. If a dc is going to excel in reading, they're going to excel as long as they learn in the normal age range.

 

I come from a family with many hg-pg dc, some with Ph.D's etc, and they weren't all able or willing to do 15 minutes of this kind of work at 4. In fact, many refused to read before 6 or so. At least one was dyslexic (his 3 yo db learned to read when he did. In fact, one of the Ph.D's spent his preschool years doing excatly what people here are suggesting--he just played & played, and he loved Legos. He has a Ph.D. in Physics, btw. This is one of my younger brothers. Even my uncle who had so much scholarship money he not only paid for all 3 degrees he was able to buy a car wasn't working on Phonics at age 4.

 

I'd stick with the fun part, the CD, because if you continue to work with an unwilling scholar at 4 you are very liable to have a child who is unwilling for the rest of his school years. A great way to turn young dc off of learning things is to start too soon, whether it's in school, sports, etc. .

:iagree: I am puzzled that no many people have really supported doing 10 minutes of structured academics a day out of the 13 hours or so that a four year old is awake if the child is at all reluctant. I read the WTM and my recollection is that the authors encourage phonics for around 10 minutes a day starting around four year old, even for boys. .

 

As much as I like WTM, I disagree with that recommendation as a general recommendation. Only one of my dc did this kind of thing at 4 & it was fun for her. In my first edition of WTM I believe the age for reading was 5, but I found that that wasn't true for my youngest, who just wasn't ready at 5, no way, but by 5.5 was. Some kids are a bit later. It is a good idea to screen kids not ready to read by 6 in order to rule out dyslexia, though.

[jennynd]

my just turned 4 DD won't sit for 15 mins for anything. we do things in 5 mins setting here there scattering around. if she show sign of been tired, i stopped. do more if she ask.

 

She reads fairly well, she has a skill of most 1st grade in terms of math/reading. so my suggestion is take easy. i know it is hard with ur 1st, been thee done that. DS memeorise all capitals playing puzzle before he turned 2, now 7 yo, he can't remember a thing. so chose your battle.

Edited February 6, 2012 by jennynd

[Hunter]

Hmm...I'm not sure anymore what I think about this type of stuff :-0 I was a teen mom, raising 2 boys in poverty and domestic abuse and suffering from what was thought at the time to be a fatal illness. One of my boys was "normal", and the other was who knows just how 2E, because we were never able to afford proper testing with people qualified to test a child with the off the chart scores he produced on the preliminary tests.

 

I was very strict. Very fair and very consistent, but very strict. My heart was too weak to chase them and my husband and landlord wouldn't tolerate typical childhood behaviors without going into rages. I expected instant obedience and punishments were immediate, definite and slightly harsh, for even the smallest infractions.

 

If I'd been older and healthier and if we had been safer and if life in general had been a little cushier, I can only wonder what kind of mom I might have been.

 

The average 4 year old in this country is forced to go to preschool, and while there forced to do what he is told. So should homeschool moms expect the same as a preschool teacher? I don't know. I don't KNOW much anymore. The more I learn the less I KNOW, if you know what I mean.

 

When I was attending an Amish/Mennonite church they push their preschoolers to work and be obedient, but wait till 6 for school. The 6 year olds learn fast because they are obedient, know how to sit still for long periods, and have been working for years.

 

Around the world, different cultures have different ages when they teach children to work, and when they expect them to go to school. More advanced cultures that don't tend to teach children to work, are more likely to start school early. And younger, poorer mothers often expect children to start earlier as their views of childhood are a bit more jaded and...I don't know...less fun, and sometimes they NEED them to work.

 

I don't believe there is a right or wrong answer here. But I would look to all of the world's history for examples of when it's the right time to expect work and schooling and whether or not obedience is a character trait that should be taught to children.

 

OP good luck deciding what to do. Raising children is not easy and we don't know until years later whether we made the right choices, and even then sometimes we don't know. I support you whatever you decide, and am happy to listen without judgement as you "talk" it out here, and find YOUR way with YOUR children.