What are your thoughts on how the sensei handled this?

[NanceXToo]

I'm not mad about it or anything, but I have been thinking about it some over the weekend and I'm just curious as to your objective thoughts on how it was handled.

 

My 11 y/o daughter has been taking martial arts classes for over a year with this guy and loves them.

 

Two weeks ago I convinced my 6 y/o son (turned 6 in November) to give them a try because I thought it would be something he might enjoy. He came for a trial class, spent parts of the class participating and parts clinging to me out of shyness and being a little sensitive when he thought he wasn't doing well. But with the stuff he did participate in, he seemed to have fun, and I got him to agree to come back this past Saturday.

 

The plan, if he was willing, was to get him to keep coming just for the month of January and at the end of those weeks, if he liked it, he could continue, and if he didn't, we'd stop.

 

But this past Saturday went even worse than the first week, in that I couldn't even get him out on the floor at all. He just clung to me the whole time saying, "I'm too shy. I don't know anybody. I'm just too shy!"

 

The gym is small, all the parents sit and watch, so okay, whatever, I was figuring it just wasn't for him and we'd skip it and maybe when he was older he'd be interested again. Or not, whatever, right?

 

So most of the class goes by and toward the end they start playing these "Judo games" and my son is watching with avid interest and he whispers to me that he wants to play. I say, "Well, you have to ask the Sensei."

 

He says, "Can you ask him for me?"

 

So I ask, and the sensei looks at him, gives him an amused smile, and says not in a mean voice or anything like that, but in no uncertain terms, something like, "Oh, no. You didn't want to come out here and do the work, but now you want to play? I asked you to come do falls, you didn't want to do falls, I'm not going to let you play if you didn't do any work, sorry."

 

And that was that.

 

So I just kind of shrugged and said gently to my son, "Well, maybe next time, you have to do the other stuff too, to be able to play the games," and my son didn't say anything and just kept watching, but I knew at that point there definitely wouldn't be a next time.

 

Okay...so...I'm not mad. His gym, his rules, he was going with "object lesson," I get it. And it's not the end of the world.

 

But part of me also can't help thinking, But, man, if he would've just said, "Sure buddy, come play, but listen, next time you have to do the falls and stuff too to be able to play," maybe my son would've gone out, had a great time, started to feel more comfortable on the floor, with the other kids, with the parents watching, and maybe the next class would've gone more smoothly and maybe he would've kept coming back...

 

Now I know he definitely won't because he didn't have that opportunity and felt chastised in front of a bunch of people on top of it. Then again, I'm the mom and my 6 y/o is my baby, and I'm not a sensei lol so maybe that's why it's niggling at me and it shouldn't even be. Either way, it doesn't really matter because my son's hardly devastated...I don't think judo is for him at this point, I sort of had to talk him into it to begin with, and we're just going to skip it with him and leave it as my daughter's activity at this point.

 

Still, out of curiosity's sake...thoughts?

[BatmansWife]

Well, I'm not sure. I see Sensei's point and I see your point.

It does remind me of our new school slogan that I just made up yesterday. "If you don't do what you're supposed to do, then you can't do what you wanna do." ;)

At least your ds isn't devastated about it. Maybe he's had time to think about it and maybe he thinks he'll do the falls next week so he can play. Have you asked him if he wants to give it another go? I'd hesitate to just assume he won't want to try again. If he's not interested, maybe there is some other class or activity that he'd like to do instead. Or, just give it another try in a year.

Sorry....I'm not much help.

[JudoMom]

I'm not mad about it or anything, but I have been thinking about it some over the weekend and I'm just curious as to your objective thoughts on how it was handled.

 

My 11 y/o daughter has been taking martial arts classes for over a year with this guy and loves them.

 

Two weeks ago I convinced my 6 y/o son (turned 6 in November) to give them a try because I thought it would be something he might enjoy. He came for a trial class, spent parts of the class participating and parts clinging to me out of shyness and being a little sensitive when he thought he wasn't doing well. But with the stuff he did participate in, he seemed to have fun, and I got him to agree to come back this past Saturday.

 

The plan, if he was willing, was to get him to keep coming just for the month of January and at the end of those weeks, if he liked it, he could continue, and if he didn't, we'd stop.

 

But this past Saturday went even worse than the first week, in that I couldn't even get him out on the floor at all. He just clung to me the whole time saying, "I'm too shy. I don't know anybody. I'm just too shy!"

 

The gym is small, all the parents sit and watch, so okay, whatever, I was figuring it just wasn't for him and we'd skip it and maybe when he was older he'd be interested again. Or not, whatever, right?

 

So most of the class goes by and toward the end they start playing these "Judo games" and my son is watching with avid interest and he whispers to me that he wants to play. I say, "Well, you have to ask the Sensei."

 

He says, "Can you ask him for me?"

 

So I ask, and the sensei looks at him, gives him an amused smile, and says not in a mean voice or anything like that, but in no uncertain terms, something like, "Oh, no. You didn't want to come out here and do the work, but now you want to play? I asked you to come do falls, you didn't want to do falls, I'm not going to let you play if you didn't do any work, sorry."

 

And that was that.

 

So I just kind of shrugged and said gently to my son, "Well, maybe next time, you have to do the other stuff too, to be able to play the games," and my son didn't say anything and just kept watching, but I knew at that point there definitely wouldn't be a next time.

 

Okay...so...I'm not mad. His gym, his rules, he was going with "object lesson," I get it. And it's not the end of the world.

 

But part of me also can't help thinking, But, man, if he would've just said, "Sure buddy, come play, but listen, next time you have to do the falls and stuff too to be able to play," maybe my son would've gone out, had a great time, started to feel more comfortable on the floor, with the other kids, with the parents watching, and maybe the next class would've gone more smoothly and maybe he would've kept coming back...

 

Now I know he definitely won't because he didn't have that opportunity and felt chastised in front of a bunch of people on top of it. Then again, I'm the mom and my 6 y/o is my baby, and I'm not a sensei lol so maybe that's why it's niggling at me and it shouldn't even be. Either way, it doesn't really matter because my son's hardly devastated...I don't think judo is for him at this point, I sort of had to talk him into it to begin with, and we're just going to skip it with him and leave it as my daughter's activity at this point.

 

Still, out of curiosity's sake...thoughts?

 

With a new student, it's possible we would've let him come out for the games. In the past, though, we've had students who want to sit out of the work, yet come out for the play. We've told them no.

 

Sometimes, though, it's best just to have a standard policy. If the Sensei lets him on the mats to play once, he might feel like he's setting a new standard for his class. Another parent might want to let their kid just do the "play". Also, a 6 year old who doesn't want to be out there can be a difficult student and take time away from other students. The Sensei probably just wants to wait until your boy is ready. I can understand it bothering you, though (my baby is 6, too :lol:).

 

So, from a Mom point of view, it would bother me. But from a Judo Coach point of view, it wouldn't bother me at all.

[bettyandbob]

I teach swimming. With the younger kids, I might have a few minutes with toys or a chance to go down the slide at the end. I tell the kids they have to participate in class to do the fun stuff. The fun stuff is a reward for the effort we put into skills work. Sometimes the fun stuff is also a good reinforcer, like you get your face wet going do the slide and you have to swim up to the surface, but we've done the skills during the class. I'm sure the judo games are a reinforcer too and if you haven't done the skills what are you reinforcing. I don't think I can completely judge your situation, but from what you've said I wouldn't have a problem with it.

 

Your ds may not be ready for martial arts. I know mine was not. My dh insisted we wait with oldest until he was 10. It was a good thing. It turned out to be a great activity for him for 4 years (when he moved to other interests). Looking back I know my ds would have hated the program quickly and never tried again had we tried it at a younger age. It would be wonderful if both your kids could be in the program at the same time, but you have to evaluate them individually. It could be a fantastic thing for your ds in a year or more, but maybe right now is just the wrong time.

[Bluegoat]

Hmm. I think my approach would have been similar to yours. On the other hand, I think the teacher's approach has merit as well. Sometimes kids do really respond to that more straight-forward approach.

 

I'm sometimes surprised when my husband makes those kinds of decisions/rules, and then the kids just rise to them, and they are sometimes much more effective than whatever I was trying to do. I experienced that myself to a degree when I joined the army in my early 20s, and it can in the end instill a lot of confidence when you realize you have to actually make a decision to overcome the thing (shyness) that is holding you back.

[NanceXToo]

Have you asked him if he wants to give it another go? I'd hesitate to just assume he won't want to try again. If he's not interested, maybe there is some other class or activity that he'd like to do instead. Or, just give it another try in a year.

 

I asked him...he said no. He said I could ask him again when he's 7 (next November lol). He enjoyed soccer last fall, does winter and spring homeschool bowling leagues, did teeball last summer (and says he wants to do that again even though he just played with the dirt more than anything else) and says he wants to join Boy Scouts because his sister is in Girl Scouts so I guess we will stick to that kind of stuff for now!

 

With a new student, it's possible we would've let him come out for the games. In the past, though, we've had students who want to sit out of the work, yet come out for the play. We've told them no.

 

Sometimes, though, it's best just to have a standard policy. If the Sensei lets him on the mats to play once, he might feel like he's setting a new standard for his class. Another parent might want to let their kid just do the "play". Also, a 6 year old who doesn't want to be out there can be a difficult student and take time away from other students. The Sensei probably just wants to wait until your boy is ready. I can understand it bothering you, though (my baby is 6, too :lol:).

 

So, from a Mom point of view, it would bother me. But from a Judo Coach point of view, it wouldn't bother me at all.

 

Yeah I can see your point about having a standard policy and not wanting to deal with a kid who doesn't want to be there to begin with for everything. I guess I was thinking more of giving a younger/newer student more leeway and he did do that already with letting him decide to run back and forth from the mats to me last week whenever he felt like it...

 

Your ds may not be ready for martial arts. I know mine was not. My dh insisted we wait with oldest until he was 10. It was a good thing. It turned out to be a great activity for him for 4 years (when he moved to other interests). Looking back I know my ds would have hated the program quickly and never tried again had we tried it at a younger age. It would be wonderful if both your kids could be in the program at the same time, but you have to evaluate them individually. It could be a fantastic thing for your ds in a year or more, but maybe right now is just the wrong time.

 

I think you're right. He's just not ready. I was trying to convince him because I thought he'd like it and it would be good to have them both there at the same time but he's just not ready enough or interested enough. Maybe when he's a bit older he'll become interested, or maybe it just won't be his "thing!"

[Murphy101]

I don't have a problem with it.

 

As a mom, you want to encourage and maybe nudge some, but the sensei doesn't want to bribe or cajole the kids into being there. He wants them to want to be there. I can understand that.

 

From my perspective, I wouldn't allow being shy to be an excuse. "We are going to go do X. If you feel self conscious, that's fine. Everyone does some times. But we still have to participate."

 

Pending his reaction to that, I'd probably give him some coping strategies and :grouphug:Of sympathy and triumph when he did it.

 

ETA: As a general rule, I don't see much benefit to extracurricular activities below age 8/10. I wouldn't have bothered with a 6 yr old, but that is just my parenting style.

[Paige]

I think it is typical but perhaps a little soon for that trick. My children are in martial arts and we've seen a couple different instructors. The instructors I have seen usually let the new shy kids participate at the end a few times before they get in trouble for sitting out. My little DD started a month before she turned 3 and she received a lot more leniency than most of the older children I saw. She got away with stuff no older child ever would but even she wasn't allowed to come into class late or play the games at the end if she didn't participate in the rest of the class after the first month or so. Most kids start at about 5 from what I've seen, and so, while your 6yr old may seem like your baby, to the instructor, he's too old to be babied. Since your son isn't officially in the class yet, I may have expected him to be allowed to ease into it more slowly, but I am not surprised that he wasn't allowed to play.

[Mergath]

I do see your point, but my thinking is that, when you study a martial art, first and foremost it's about discipline. By just letting the discipline aspect slide when it's convenient, the sensei wouldn't be setting a great example for the other kids.

[NotAVampireLvr]

Hmm. I think my approach would have been similar to yours. On the other hand, I think the teacher's approach has merit as well. Sometimes kids do really respond to that more straight-forward approach.

 

I'm sometimes surprised when my husband makes those kinds of decisions/rules, and then the kids just rise to them, and they are sometimes much more effective than whatever I was trying to do. I experienced that myself to a degree when I joined the army in my early 20s, and it can in the end instill a lot of confidence when you realize you have to actually make a decision to overcome the thing (shyness) that is holding you back.

 

 

Our sensei is VERY laid back in personality, with clingy kids, etc. BUT he's pretty strict about how things go down in his dojo. If you want to do the fun stuff you have to participate in class, end of story - no exceptions. Participation can be as little as sitting on the sidelines and watching. Participation is not being clingy to mum & dad since parents are allowed to watch from the hall, but not inside the dojo. (no room for that) So really, he doesn't ask much. The kids love him because he's serious when he needs to be, but pretty much a goofball at other times. With that said I think because of his personality he really has high standards about behavior and what is allowed in the dojo. If he lets one student do it, they will all want to do it.

[jujsky]

I can see both points of view, but I think the sensei could have accomplished the same thing in a way that didn't make your son feel chastised in front of the entire group. From what you posted, it sounded like the sensei was taking the approach of, "Oh, no -- you're trying to pull a fast-one one on everyone by sitting out and then asking to play the games!" when I don't think that's what your son was doing. The games might not have seemed as intimidating to him as the rest of the class. He could have said, "Sorry, buddy. We have a rule that you have to do the work in the class if you want to play the games. It wouldn't be fair to the other kids if I let you play. If you come back to the next class and do the work, I'll let you play the game." Same point, but doesn't make your poor kid feel like he's trying to do something sneaky, which would obviously embarrass a shy kid. Children start understanding what is fair and unfair in groups about that age so unless he hasn't developed in that sense yet, he would probably understand and wouldn't feel bad. It wouldn't be about him -- it would be about the rule.

[NanceXToo]

As a mom, you want to encourage and maybe nudge some, but the sensei doesn't want to bribe or cajole the kids into being there. He wants them to want to be there. I can understand that.

 

Yeah, I can understand that, too (and I think that this particular sport was better off being left til my son was a bit older)!

 

I think it is typical but perhaps a little soon for that trick.

 

I think that sums up exactly why I was feeling ambivalent about the situation! I did get it and wasn't MAD about it or anything but did feel that it was a little soon to take a rigid stance with a young, new student, I guess! But, still, especially after reading all the responses here, I do appreciate all the points being made and really do get where he and everyone may be coming from with the decision that was made!

 

I do see your point, but my thinking is that, when you study a martial art, first and foremost it's about discipline. By just letting the discipline aspect slide when it's convenient, the sensei wouldn't be setting a great example for the other kids.

 

True!

 

Our sensei is VERY laid back in personality, with clingy kids, etc. BUT he's pretty strict about how things go down in his dojo. If you want to do the fun stuff you have to participate in class, end of story - no exceptions. Participation can be as little as sitting on the sidelines and watching. Participation is not being clingy to mum & dad since parents are allowed to watch from the hall, but not inside the dojo. (no room for that) So really, he doesn't ask much. The kids love him because he's serious when he needs to be, but pretty much a goofball at other times. With that said I think because of his personality he really has high standards about behavior and what is allowed in the dojo. If he lets one student do it, they will all want to do it.

 

Yeah this is how this guy usually is, too. My daughter loves him. He jokes around a lot, he's usually great with the kids, plays around with them, easygoing, but definitely serious when it's time to be serious/disciplined. I think if my son had participated in even bits and pieces of the class like he did the first time he might have let him do this but for some reason he just wouldn't even do a thing this time and totally froze up. It's definitely apparent that he's just not ready and just doesn't want to be there, so I won't try to convince him again. No sense subjecting a young kid to something that makes them that uncomfortable/when they don't even really want it, and no sense in wasting the sensei's time!

 

Thanks for the objective feedback, all!

[Kalmia]

My dh has been a martial arts instructor for decades. Although he is usually in the tough as nails category, he said that he would have let a shy child participate in hopes that the child would become comfortable. But if it were a child who was not shy, but being difficult, he would never have let him try the fun stuff. However, his final word is that 6 is far too young for martial arts unless the child is extraordinarily talented for his age and that most martial arts instruction before the age of 7 or 8 is really not productive and just aimed at earning money to support the school.

[NotAVampireLvr]

Yeah this is how this guy usually is, too. My daughter loves him. He jokes around a lot, he's usually great with the kids, plays around with them, easygoing, but definitely serious when it's time to be serious/disciplined. I think if my son had participated in even bits and pieces of the class like he did the first time he might have let him do this but for some reason he just wouldn't even do a thing this time and totally froze up. It's definitely apparent that he's just not ready and just doesn't want to be there, so I won't try to convince him again. No sense subjecting a young kid to something that makes them that uncomfortable/when they don't even really want it, and no sense in wasting the sensei's time!

 

Thanks for the objective feedback, all!

 

Try not to feel too badly about it. DS1 loves karate... I thought for certain DS2 would like it too... he just went to his first class and it was very apparent he was not ready and probably won't be for some time. He's has the ability, but not the confidence.

[FriedClams]

I don't have a problem with it.

 

As a mom, you want to encourage and maybe nudge some, but the sensei doesn't want to bribe or cajole the kids into being there. He wants them to want to be there. I can understand that.

 

From my perspective, I wouldn't allow being shy to be an excuse. "We are going to go do X. If you feel self conscious, that's fine. Everyone does some times. But we still have to participate."

 

Pending his reaction to that, I'd probably give him some coping strategies and :grouphug:Of sympathy and triumph when he did it.

 

ETA: As a general rule, I don't see much benefit to extracurricular activities below age 8/10. I wouldn't have bothered with a 6 yr old, but that is just my parenting style.

 

:iagree:

[SKL]

My reality check for a group activity is: what if everyone did that? (Or everyone's kids?)

 

I think Sensei did the right thing.

 

When I heard that my kids' preschool karate teacher kinda told my dd off (in a nice but "non-negotiable" voice), I was really glad. It's good for them to know that behavior standards aren't just things moms impose.

[Parrothead]

My reality check for a group activity is: what if everyone did that? (Or everyone's kids?)

 

I think Sensei did the right thing.

 

When I heard that my kids' preschool karate teacher kinda told my dd off (in a nice but "non-negotiable" voice), I was really glad. It's good for them to know that behavior standards aren't just things moms impose.

:iagree:I think is good that my always homeschooled daughter has to listen to other people's rules at times.

[Bang!Zoom!]

The Sensei who teaches my daughter would have behaved exactly the same.

[NanceXToo]

My dh has been a martial arts instructor for decades. Although he is usually in the tough as nails category, he said that he would have let a shy child participate in hopes that the child would become comfortable. But if it were a child who was not shy, but being difficult, he would never have let him try the fun stuff. However, his final word is that 6 is far too young for martial arts unless the child is extraordinarily talented for his age and that most martial arts instruction before the age of 7 or 8 is really not productive and just aimed at earning money to support the school.

 

Please tell him I appreciate him lending his viewpoint!

 

My reality check for a group activity is: what if everyone did that? (Or everyone's kids?)

 

I think Sensei did the right thing.

 

When I heard that my kids' preschool karate teacher kinda told my dd off (in a nice but "non-negotiable" voice), I was really glad. It's good for them to know that behavior standards aren't just things moms impose.

 

That's the truth lol!

[Murphy101]

My dh has been a martial arts instructor for decades. Although he is usually in the tough as nails category, he said that he would have let a shy child participate in hopes that the child would become comfortable. But if it were a child who was not shy, but being difficult, he would never have let him try the fun stuff. However, his final word is that 6 is far too young for martial arts unless the child is extraordinarily talented for his age and that most martial arts instruction before the age of 7 or 8 is really not productive and just aimed at earning money to support the school.

 

See I do have a problem with that.

 

The only difference between a shy child and a child being difficult is the perception and inclination if the person making the judgement. In this situation, the sensei doesn't know my child from Adam, so how would he know if that is my child being difficult or my child being shy? *I* likely know my child well enough to know the difference, but I wouldn't expect anyone else to and I wouldn't presume to do so of another's kid. Being nervous can make different people act different ways.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I do see your point, but my thinking is that, when you study a martial art, first and foremost it's about discipline. By just letting the discipline aspect slide when it's convenient, the sensei wouldn't be setting a great example for the other kids.

 

:iagree: