Christians who observes Jewish holidays

[YaelAldrich]

Being Irish is my family's history, but everyone is welcome to celebrate St. Patrick's day. Everyone is also welcome to study the Great Famine and the way the Irish were treated by the English. But then again the Irish love a good party and are pretty open to those wanting to know more about their history.

 

I'm not sure what to say about your examples, though. They made me pretty uncomfortable. Remembering and learning about something is quite different than what you said. And, yes, I understand that you meant to make a chuckle with those examples.

 

They were supposed to make people uncomfortable.

 

You may like when people drink green beer and eat corned beef (which as I heard, y'all got from the Jews!), but would you like it if people took the horrible historical wars/colonialization of Ireland by the English and "wear" it/assimilate it/playact it themselves in a regular observance, especially if they thought the English were right to help the Irish become civilized? I don't think so. Your history is sacred to you, reading and learning is something completely different and should be encouraged.

[YaelAldrich]

Well, I don't celebrate Hanukkah, unless you count that I love the latkes, but isn't that representative of the oil being enough in the Temple?

And Purim, isn't that from Esther? If I'm right, then they are in the Bible, right?

As a Gentile, I didn't have my son cut, but I would have if I was Jewish.

I lived with a Jewish family while I nannied and had a lot of fun. They weren't Orthodox, but did keep Kosher in the house.... (NJ) Jewish all the way.... I was caught off guard when the 4 year old told me "I am a Jew and you are a Gentile!!" Hmmmm.....

Anyway, Purim in Israel is a Huge Party day for the young teens/adults :)

My father would love to live in Israel :) He goes about 3 times a year and has for over 10 years...

 

Food made with oil is a remembrance of the oil in the Temple, which Christians don't have a need for because you have Jesus. Jews (at least traditional one) yearn for the Temple to be rebuilt every day -- we say it in our thrice daily prayers, every time we pray to say thanks after eating, etc etc.

 

Esther is a book of the Bible (Jewish bible too) but the holiday is not commanded by G-d. We do it in remembrance (we Jews do a lot of remembering) of the awesome miracles that happened without G-d showing himself in an open and revealed way (take a look, no mention of G-d in the Book of Esther). There are Jewish communities who have similar festivals because of similar situations...

 

Israel is NOT a religious country. It has religious Jews but they are not the majority at all. Purim for Israelis is kind of like Halloween is celebrated by secular Americans -- food/treats, costumes, drinking (alcohol). I have a CD of Purim music by a non-Orthodox group and the emphases are starkly different -- fun, happiness and dancing vs. Jewish woman fighting for her people to survive.

 

Your father should enjoy Israel -- even with it's faults, it is an amazing place and I encourage everyone to go at least once!

[Sputterduck]

They were supposed to make people uncomfortable.

 

You may like when people drink green beer and eat corned beef (which as I heard, y'all got from the Jews!), but would you like it if people took the horrible historical wars/colonialization of Ireland by the English and "wear" it/assimilate it/playact it themselves in a regular observance, especially if they thought the English were right to help the Irish become civilized? I don't think so. Your history is sacred to you, reading and learning is something completely different and should be encouraged.

 

Well, the Irish don't drink green beer and they don't have a dish of corned beef and cabbage. So it's all corrupted and not Irish. Oh well, party on people. It *does* bother me when people play bagpipes on St. Patrick's day. :eek: Those are Scottish. There is a joke, "Do you know where the Scottish got bagpipes? The Irish gave them to them as a joke, only they haven't gotten it yet." :lol:

 

The Irish play the uilleann pipes, thank you very much.

 

You don't want to know how I'd react if someone thought the English were correct in their actions against the Irish. I did go to Ireland and talk to people there about what's happened. Many mentioned attempted genocide.

 

My history is sacred to me. :) And so it yours. Yet Judaism is a Christian's religious history, if not his/her racial history. People want to acknowledge that, yet they don't know how. I betcha they would love to know how to do it with respect, without corrupting what they also consider holy. Is that fair enough?

[SonshineLearner]

 

Israel is NOT a religious country. It has religious Jews but they are not the majority at all. Purim for Israelis is kind of like Halloween is celebrated by secular Americans -- food/treats, costumes, drinking (alcohol). I have a CD of Purim music by a non-Orthodox group and the emphases are starkly different -- fun, happiness and dancing vs. Jewish woman fighting for her people to survive.

 

Your father should enjoy Israel -- even with it's faults, it is an amazing place and I encourage everyone to go at least once!

 

Yes, I thought the thread was about all of the holidays that are celebrated from the Bible... And yes, my friend was a very "secular" Jew :) I hope to go to Israel with my father, before he gets too old :)

[Ester Maria]

My history is sacred to me. :) And so it yours. Yet Judaism, is a Christian's religious history, if not his/her racial history. People want to acknowledge that, yet they don't know how. I betcha they would love to know how to do it with respect, without corrupting what they also consider holy. Is that fair enough?

Not when viewed from this side of the fence... :(

[Sputterduck]

Not when viewed from this side of the fence... :(

 

I understand. But would there be Christianity without Judaism? No. Jesus was Jewish. All of the first Christians were Jewish. Christians consider themselves adopted into God's family, while considering the Jews God's family. We understand the meaning of our covenant through your covenant. We consider your forefathers our religious forefathers. We got the first half of our holy book from your holy writings. We study it with all sincerity and a loving heart. We consider your God our God.

 

I get where you are coming from. Can you understand where we are coming from?

 

I don't know why I'm even in this thread. I don't celebrate Jewish holidays. I do, however, hate it when sincere, loving, well-meaning people are misunderstood. It's a sad thing.

[YaelAldrich]

Well, the Irish don't drink green beer and they don't have a dish of corned beef and cabbage. So it's all corrupted and not Irish. Oh well, party on people. It *does* bother me when people play bagpipes on St. Patrick's day. :eek: Those are Scottish. There is a joke, "Do you know where the Scottish got bagpipes? The Irish gave them to them as a joke, only they haven't gotten it yet." :lol:

 

The Irish play the uilleann pipes, thank you very much.

 

You don't want to know how I'd react if someone thought the English were correct in their actions against the Irish. I did go to Ireland and talk to people there about what's happened. Many mentioned attempted genocide.

 

My history is sacred to me. :) And so it yours. Yet Judaism is a Christian's religious history, if not his/her racial history. People want to acknowledge that, yet they don't know how. I betcha they would love to know how to do it with respect, without corrupting what they also consider holy. Is that fair enough?

 

Honestly, not really. I've nothing against you personally or Christians as a whole or even those (IMHO) misguided Christians who mangle Hebrew prayers, mangle the Jewish holidays to suit their Christian biases, wear corny yarmulkes and three inch wide prayer shawls or pin "fringes" on their pants and yell SHALOM! to me the identifiable Jew. But why can't they be a Christian, not a wanna-be Jew. If they want to give up the belief in Jesus as a deity and really be Jewish, I'll be the first one to welcome them. If a Christian wants to come to my house and see what Shabbat/Passover/Sukkot is like in a Jewish home, come on over, but twisting the beauty of Judaism to fit the mold of Christianity is corruption pure and simple. Let Jews celebrate Judaism. If it so holy, let the people who were given it (and didn't abrogate it in a new covenant) observe it.

 

I can't just let it go (and that's why I am Jewish).

 

Peace out,

Yael

[Sputterduck]

Honestly, not really. I've nothing against you personally or Christians as a whole or even those (IMHO) misguided Christians who mangle Hebrew prayers, mangle the Jewish holidays to suit their Christian biases, wear corny yarmulkes and three inch wide prayer shawls or pin "fringes" on their pants and yell SHALOM! to me the identifiable Jew. But why can't they be a Christian, not a wanna-be Jew. If they want to give up the belief in Jesus as a deity and really be Jewish, I'll be the first one to welcome them. If a Christian wants to come to my house and see what Shabbat/Passover/Sukkot is like in a Jewish home, come on over, but twisting the beauty of Judaism to fit the mold of Christianity is corruption pure and simple. Let Jews celebrate Judaism. If it so holy, let the people who were given it (and didn't abrogate it in a new covenant) observe it.

 

I can't just let it go (and that's why I am Jewish).

 

Peace out,

Yael

 

Well, I'm sorry and understanding can't be reached. Hopefully you can understand that they mean no harm and that they consider holy what you consider holy, but they just aren't educated enough on parts of it.

[GWOB]

Well, the Irish don't drink green beer and they don't have a dish of corned beef and cabbage. So it's all corrupted and not Irish. Oh well, party on people. It *does* bother me when people play bagpipes on St. Patrick's day. :eek: Those are Scottish. There is a joke, "Do you know where the Scottish got bagpipes? The Irish gave them to them as a joke, only they haven't gotten it yet." :lol:

 

The Irish play the uilleann pipes, thank you very much.

 

You don't want to know how I'd react if someone thought the English were correct in their actions against the Irish. I did go to Ireland and talk to people there about what's happened. Many mentioned attempted genocide.

 

My history is sacred to me. :) And so it yours. Yet Judaism is a Christian's religious history, if not his/her racial history. People want to acknowledge that, yet they don't know how. I betcha they would love to know how to do it with respect, without corrupting what they also consider holy. Is that fair enough?

 

No, it's not fair. Yes, my God was a Jewish carpenter. To me, that just means I have the utmost respect for the Jews. I am not Jewish. I never will be, nor will I ever pretend to be Jewish. I love and respect the Jews, but I am not a Jew.

 

And I totally get the corrupting of one's cultural heritage. I'm Cajun. I get being exiled out of your land. I get people coming in and destroying your language. I get people making stupid tv shows stereotyping your culture. That is why I would never, ever try to corrupt the fascinating, sacred Jewish history.

 

We are Christians. We can be original.

[YaelAldrich]

I understand. But would there be Christianity without Judaism? No. Jesus was Jewish. All of the first Christians were Jewish. Christians consider themselves adopted into God's family, while considering the Jews God's family. We understand the meaning of our covenant through your covenant. We consider your forefathers our religious forefathers. We got the first half of our holy book from your holy writings. We study it with all sincerity and a loving heart. We consider your God our God.

 

I get where you are coming from. Can you understand where we are coming from?

 

I don't know why I'm even in this thread. I don't celebrate Jewish holidays. I do, however, hate it when sincere, loving, well-meaning people are misunderstood. It's a sad thing.

 

I'll reiterate -- I don't have a problem with Christians. Yes, Jesus was Jewish and many of the first Christians were Jewish too (although not all of them were). But Jesus gave Christians a NEW covenant, discarding the old one. You know, "there is no Jew or Greek..." Judaism is null and void now by that thought. By that thought, Jews are covenantless. Christians are in G-d's family just as every person is. Christians have a second book (the Supplement) because they though Jesus fulfilled the requirements for a Messiah, meaning the first book is obsolete/finito.

 

I understand the sincerity and loving heart and all that. Very nice -- except the Christian religion says Judaism's time in the sun is over. We don't think so (and neither does G-d since we are still here).

 

How about we call it a day? I won't change anyone's mind anyways and I have to check schoolwork and wash dishes.

 

Yael

[Ester Maria]

I get where you are coming from. Can you understand where we are coming from?

I *think* that I can, however, I keep running into some conceptual stumbling blocks because I am having an extremely hard time even entertaining the idea that Christianity may be considered a Judaic phenomenon, something which organically grew from Judaism as one of its "forms" (for lack of a better expression). To quote an intellect much sharper than mine who managed to capture the very essence of how I view it: "The relationship between Christianity and Judaism is like a relationship between Hamlet and the culture of Denmark. In other words, there is. no. relationship to speak of."

 

The tight relationship between the two exists in the Christian perspective... not in the Jewish one. From the Jewish perspective, Christianity is, at best, entirely theologically insignificant (and, unfortunately, very historically relevant in a negative sense), and at worst, an "impostor" on its holy text pretending to be "true" Judaism (i.e. "fulfilled" Judaism). And I am so sorry for being this honest :(, I hope you are not taking any of this personally, just trying to communicate, or rationalize in words, what is so problematic about it in my eyes.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Ester Maria

[YaelAldrich]

We are Christians. We can be original.

 

OC =Original Christian, I like it! It could be Contemporary Christian Rock group or a new designer label on modest clothing...;)

[Sputterduck]

I *think* that I can, however, I keep running into some conceptual stumbling blocks because I am having an extremely hard time even entertaining the idea that Christianity may be considered a Judaic phenomenon, something which organically grew from Judaism as one of its "forms" (for lack of a better expression). To quote an intellect much sharper than mine who managed to capture the very essence of how I view it: "The relationship between Christianity and Judaism is like a relationship between Hamlet and the culture of Denmark. In other words, there is. no. relationship to speak of."

 

The tight relationship between the two exists in the Christian perspective... not in the Jewish one. From the Jewish perspective, Christianity is, at best, entirely theologically insignificant (and, unfortunately, very historically relevant in a negative sense), and at worst, an "impostor" on its holy text pretending to be "true" Judaism (i.e. "fulfilled" Judaism). And I am so sorry for being this honest :(, I hope you are not taking any of this personally, just trying to communicate, or rationalize in words, what is so problematic about it in my eyes.

 

I love honesty. I don't mind. I promise. :)

 

Christianity was considered a Jewish sect. It grew enough to be considered it's own thing rather quickly. And it also started including gentiles rather quickly. But it was considered a "dangerous" Jewish sect.

 

"The earliest followers of Jesus composed an apocalyptic, Second Temple Jewish sect, which historians refer to as Jewish Christianity."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_early_Christianity

"Among the significant events of the last century of the Second Temple period was the emergence of the Jesus Movement."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Temple_Judaism

 

It did emerge from and among Judaism and still uses Jewish scriptures. I get that you have disowned the lineage, but Christians have not. In fact, it is still very important to Christians.

[GWOB]

OC =Original Christian, I like it! It could be Contemporary Christian Rock group or a new designer label on modest clothing...;)

 

:lol: I love Jewish history. It is fascinating. But I am not a Jew. Jews do their thing and Christians do our thing. That's ok.

 

I wonder how Christians would feel if a Muslim came here and asked how to celebrate Advent. Honestly, they would freak. I'm guessing that's how the Jews feel when Christians ask how to celebrate a Seder (sp?). Or rename sacred Jewish holidays. We have our own holidays. We have a whole liturgical calendar! We don't need to corrupt the sacred Jewish holidays to live a full Christian life (no insult intended)

[Sputterduck]

:lol: I love Jewish history. It is fascinating. But I am not a Jew. Jews do their thing and Christians do our thing. That's ok.

 

I wonder how Christians would feel if a Muslim came here and asked how to celebrate Advent. Honestly, they would freak. I'm guessing that's how the Jews feel when Christians ask how to celebrate a Seder (sp?). Or rename sacred Jewish holidays. We have our own holidays. We have a whole liturgical calendar! We don't need to corrupt the sacred Jewish holidays to live a full Christian life (no insult intended)

 

Wow, why do you say that?? Every Christian I know would *love* that. What Christian doesn't love to share their ways? People complain that Christians are far too eager to talk about their religion and share their ways.

[GWOB]

Wow, why do you say that?? Every Christian I know would *love* that. What Christian doesn't love to share their ways?

 

Sure they would love it if it meant conversion. But if a Muslim was happy with Islam and just felt like celebrating Christmas just because? Knotted panties all over the place.

[Sputterduck]

Sure they would love it if it meant conversion. But if a Muslim was happy with Islam and just felt like celebrating Christmas just because? Knotted panties all over the place.

 

I don't think so at all.

[GWOB]

I don't think so at all.

 

Perhaps I am just speaking from my own personal experience. My SBC preacher dad would have a stroke.

[YaelAldrich]

It did emerge from and among Judaism and still uses Jewish scriptures. I get that you have disowned the lineage, but Christians have not. In fact, it is still very important to Christians.

 

Y'know Sputterduck, it's not fair! You are fresher than I am (it's much later here!!). :tongue_smilie:

 

Christians have not disowned the lineage because then there would be no Christianity! You have to base the whole Jesus thing (Messiah to save the world, fulfillment of prophesy, blah blah blah) from someplace and that someplace is Judaism. Islam is the other "daughter" of Judaism and it couldn't work if there were no Judaism. You can't fulfill anything if there is no beginning and something to be fulfilled. If there was no Isiah 50-whatever (with its mis-translation for Christians) there would be no need for Christ/Messiah to die and be resurrected and come again (Judaism doesn't believe in any of this by the way to be a fulfillment for the Messiah). It's VERY important to Christians and has been deadly in the past for Jews (now it's just mostly annoying).

[TracyR]

We have done a Passover Seder. That was amazing. It gave great understanding into communion, specifically the symbols of the bread and the wine(/grape juice).

 

We have gone to a Passover Seder as well and really enjoyed that. I'm sure many Christian religions can relate to Jewish traditions as many of our traditions have been passed down in Christian religion (especially Catholics).

Hence the term Judeo-Christian religion :001_smile:

 

We also celebrate Pentecost (Shavuot). We observe the Sabbath, though Catholics can also celebrate Mass on Saturday ( which technically does not forgive them from not coming to Mass on Sundays like they think) but its there for those who have to work and can't make it on Sunday.

 

Out of all of the Christian religions , Catholics and Orthodox are probably the closest in terms of following tradition.

 

We haven't celebrated Hanukkah yet. Though my girls know what it is.

[Sputterduck]

Ester Maria, since you're being honest, I have a question. What do Jewish people think about Gentiles? What about their relationship with God? Are they looked down on at all? Can a Gentile have a genuine, real relationship with God? What is the thought of God, eternity, and Gentiles?

 

Okay, that was multiple questions. I promise no offense will be taken. I am curious, though.

[Sputterduck]

Y'know Sputterduck, it's not fair! You are fresher than I am (it's much later here!!). :tongue_smilie:

 

Christians have not disowned the lineage because then there would be no Christianity! You have to base the whole Jesus thing (Messiah to save the world, fulfillment of prophesy, blah blah blah) from someplace and that someplace is Judaism. Islam is the other "daughter" of Judaism and it couldn't work if there were no Judaism. You can't fulfill anything if there is no beginning and something to be fulfilled. If there was no Isiah 50-whatever (with its mis-translation for Christians) there would be no need for Christ/Messiah to die and be resurrected and come again (Judaism doesn't believe in any of this by the way to be a fulfillment for the Messiah). It's VERY important to Christians and has been deadly in the past for Jews (now it's just mostly annoying).

 

That's my point. :tongue_smilie:

[Sputterduck]

Perhaps I am just speaking from my own personal experience. My SBC preacher dad would have a stroke.

 

I'm sorry about that. I have no experience with the SBC. Why does your dad feel like that?

[YaelAldrich]

Ester Maria, since you're being honest, I have a question. What do Jewish people think about Gentiles? What about their relationship with God? Are they looked down on at all? Can a Gentile have a genuine, real relationship with God? What is the thought of God, eternity, and Gentiles?

 

Okay, that was multiple questions. I promise no offense will be taken. I am curious, though.

 

Can I take a stab at this one? This is from an Orthodox Jewish perspective.

 

The Jewish religion/G-d made two types of people, Jews and non-Jews. Jews through people such as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph became a chosen people which with the help of Moses left the land of Egypt (that's why we celebrate Passover) and soon thereafter took on the covenant vows (which are fulfilled by doing mitzvot -commandments) with G-d at Mt Sinai. At that point we were not only a tribe/people, we became a distinct religion. That obviously leaves out the rest of the world, right? Unlike Christianity, which believes that an unsaved person is destined for Hell, Judaism believes that non-Jews are not obligated at all in the 613 commandments that Jews are. The rabbis devined out seven more basic laws for non-Jews now known as the Sheva Mitzvot b'nei Noach (the seven commandments of the children of Noah).http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah

 

If a non-Jew is able to follow those laws, they are rewarded (Heavenly style that is) as much as a Jew who fulfilled the mitzvot that they were commanded. We believe non-Jews should have a full and rich relationship with G-d, there need not be any intermediary such as Jesus. A B'nei Noach/monotheist/Muslim (and some say any Christian because there is debate whether Christianity is monotheistic enough) can pray to G-d, celebrate aspects of Jewish holidays and be aligned with the Jewish people and G-d.

 

Now if you ask about how Jews see Gentiles, you have to step WAY back to see Christian-Jewish history --most of it REALLY bad for the Jews. But as a Classical HSer you knew that. So in some ways it is hard for a Jew not have a viceral jolt when you see a missionary knocking on your door or Christmas stuff everywhere. I don't think most Jews hate Gentiles, but we are different and we are enjoined by our religion to keep it that way. We keep kosher which means you (Sputterduck) you have a hard time having my family over for a casual meal. We can't drink non-Jewish made wine, we can't (in general) enter into your place of worship. So a close relationship is harder to achieve.

 

Did I answer your questions?

Edited January 26, 2012 by YaelAldrich
oopsie

[Ester Maria]

Ester Maria, since you're being honest, I have a question. What do Jewish people think about Gentiles? What about their relationship with God? Are they looked down on at all? Can a Gentile have a genuine, real relationship with God? What is the thought of God, eternity, and Gentiles?

Totally honestly - I am NOT trying to get away with not "really" answering and giving you some kind of a diplomatic generalization instead - the answer to all of these questions truly is: "It depends on whom you ask."

 

These are complex, often contradictory attitudes; I would say that the fundamental problem is not in theology per se, but in the historicity of that theology and the circumstances in which it was framed.

 

I would have to be in one of my non-insomniac phases to elaborate on a high strung topic like this "properly"; a sound-bite version, and a very superficial one, would be this:

 

1. There are different categories of a Gentile. The attitudes are different towards an idolater (with all the burden, not only theological, but also socio-historical, that that category conveyed) and towards a righteous Gentile who follows the seven Noachide laws.

. 1.1 There are different socio-historical realities in which Jews and Gentiles (of any type) may coexist. The perception and the rules of the game in exile are different than the rules of the game in a halachic Jewish state, for example.

2. There are different opinions as to the Gentile's relationship with God. One of the Noachide laws is the prohibition against idolatry. Taken very seriously, this prohibition basically makes it impossible for a Gentile to be righteous without accepting the Jewish notion of the one and unique God. Nothing is said, however, about ways in which Gentiles "ought" to connect with God.

. 2.1 What is known, however, is that there is a set of practices which are "signs" - signs of the Jewish covenant with God - which are forbidden to Gentiles. Also, since Jewish practices are, well, centered around the idea of a nation singled out from all other nations for a specific duty unique to them alone, it is awkward, at best, if a Gentile takes place in a fully fledged religious lifestyle the way Jews are required to, even if we disregard those practice he ought not do because they are reserved for Jews.

3. Are they looked down on... I would not word it that way. Jews are chosen, but chosen does not necessarily mean superior in any way, it means being destined to be singled out and fulfill a very specific mission unique to them. Like I said earlier, it is like two separate modes of being, both of which are valid and right for people in that category and not for people in the other category.

. 3.1 There is a generally accepted opinion that the possession of a "Jewish soul" in and of itself makes one closer to God. Gentiles do not have a Jewish soul, obviously.

4. About a real genuine relationship with God, that would depend on the limitations of how far you take 3.1. In some more extreme versions, nope, because connection via a Jewish soul is the only truly significant one, the only "real thing" (basically). In less extreme versions, sure, but I do not think that anyone actually denies that being Jewish makes for a different (not necessarily "more", but qualitatively different) connection with God? Maybe there are such opinions, but I have not encountered them.

5. Righteous Gentiles get into the next world.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Ester Maria

[Ibbygirl]

This has truly been a fascinating read. I thank the OP for starting this thread as it has been educational and eye opening for me. :) I don't celebrate Jewish holidays so maybe I have no place commenting in this thread but Yael and Ester Maria brought up some interesting points about the Jewish reaction to Christians and in my mind it begged a question. I hope ya'll will permit me to stick my nose into this interesting conversation.

 

Ester Maria and Yael, you both brought up that Jews have a knee jerk kind of reaction to Christians. Ester Maria said that

From the Jewish perspective, Christianity is, at best, entirely theologically insignificant (and, unfortunately, very historically relevant in a negative sense), and at worst, an "impostor" on its holy text pretending to be "true" Judaism (i.e. "fulfilled" Judaism).

 

Yael you said

 

Now if you ask about how Jews see Gentiles, you have to step WAY back to see Christian-Jewish history --most of it REALLY bad for the Jews. But as a Classical HSer you knew that. So in some ways it is hard for a Jew not have a viceral jolt when you see a missionary knocking on your door or Christmas stuff everywhere.

 

 

I understand the history and pain that was inflicted on the Jewish people in Europe. The prejudices they experienced and status as second class citizens and of course the horrific treatment by The Inquisition.

 

My question then is when Jews think about Christians do they always go so far back in history??

 

All of us on this message board are living in modern times and I am as much removed from The Inquistion (I am of Spanish heritage) as I would think you, (Yael and Ester Maria) are. Am I wrong in my assumptions?

 

So it makes me wonder if the modern Jew thinks about modern Christians for example President Harry Truman (who was a Christian) and his recognizing Israel as a sovereign nation 11 minutes after their declaration of her as a state and even in the face of strong opposition to the measure by his Secretary of State and his Secretary of Defense.

 

I think about how many Christians today support Israel and pray for Israel daily and stand by her.

 

Does the modern Jew take these things into consideration at all (I ask because I really don't know. I am not Jewish) or is it strictly about the past?

 

I'm curious. I look forward to your replies. This is a fascinating discussion. Hopefully I expressed myself well enough. I always doubt how I come across on the forums since you can't see my facial expressions or discern my tone, but believe me that I ask with the utmost respect and sincerity as one who wants to learn. :)

[Sputterduck]

Can I take a stab at this one? This is from an Orthodox Jewish perspective.

 

The Jewish religion/G-d made two types of people, Jews and non-Jews. Jews through people such as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph became a chosen people which with the help of Moses left the land of Egypt (that's why we celebrate Passover) and soon thereafter took on the covenant vows (which are fulfilled by doing mitzvot -commandments) with G-d at Mt Sinai. At that point we were not only a tribe/people, we became a distinct religion. That obviously leaves out the rest of the world, right? Unlike Christianity, which believes that an unsaved person is destined for Hell, Judaism believes that non-Jews are not obligated at all in the 613 commandments that Jews are. The rabbis devined out seven more basic laws for non-Jews now known as the Sheva Mitzvot b'nei Noach (the seven commandments of the children of Noah).http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah

 

If a non-Jew is able to follow those laws, they are rewarded (Heavenly style that is) as much as a Jew who fulfilled the mitzvot that they were commanded. We believe non-Jews should have a full and rich relationship with G-d, there need not be any intermediary such as Jesus. A B'nei Noach/monotheist/Muslim (and some say any Christian because there is debate whether Christianity is monotheistic enough) can pray to G-d, celebrate aspects of Jewish holidays and be aligned with the Jewish people and G-d.

 

Now if you ask about how Jews see Gentiles, you have to step WAY back to see Christian-Jewish history --most of it REALLY bad for the Jews. But as a Classical HSer you knew that. So in some ways it is hard for a Jew not have a viceral jolt when you see a missionary knocking on your door or Christmas stuff everywhere. I don't think most Jews hate Gentiles, but we are different and we are enjoined by our religion to keep it that way. We keep kosher which means you (Sputterduck) you have a hard time having my family over for a casual meal. We can't drink non-Jewish made wine, we can't (in general) enter into your place of worship. So a close relationship is harder to achieve.

 

Did I answer your questions?

 

Well, that is fascinating. Thank you for the response and for linking that article.

[Sputterduck]

Totally honestly - I am NOT trying to get away with not "really" answering and giving you some kind of a diplomatic generalization instead - the answer to all of these questions truly is: "It depends on whom you ask."

 

These are complex, often contradictory attitudes; I would say that the fundamental problem is not in theology per se, but in the historicity of that theology and the circumstances in which it was framed.

 

I would have to be in one of my non-insomniac phases to elaborate on a high strung topic like this "properly"; a sound-bite version, and a very superficial one, would be this:

 

1. There are different categories of a Gentile. The attitudes are different towards an idolater (with all the burden, not only theological, but also socio-historical, that that category conveyed) and towards a righteous Gentile who follows the seven Noachide laws.

. 1.1 There are different socio-historical realities in which Jews and Gentiles (of any type) may coexist. The perception and the rules of the game in exile are different than the rules of the game in a halachic Jewish state, for example.

2. There are different opinions as to the Gentile's relationship with God. One of the Noachide laws is the prohibition against idolatry. Taken very seriously, this prohibition basically makes it impossible for a Gentile to be righteous without accepting the Jewish notion of the one and unique God. Nothing is said, however, about ways in which Gentiles "ought" to connect with God.

. 2.1 What is known, however, is that there is a set of practices which are "signs" - signs of the Jewish covenant with God - which are forbidden to Gentiles. Also, since Jewish practices are, well, centered around the idea of a nation singled out from all other nations for a specific duty unique to them alone, it is awkward, at best, if a Gentile takes place in a fully fledged religious lifestyle the way Jews are required to, even if we disregard those practice he ought not do because they are reserved for Jews.

3. Are they looked down on... I would not word it that way. Jews are chosen, but chosen does not necessarily mean superior in any way, it means being destined to be singled out and fulfill a very specific mission unique to them. Like I said earlier, it is like two separate modes of being, both of which are valid and right for people in that category and not for people in the other category.

. 3.1 There is a generally accepted opinion that the possession of a "Jewish soul" in and of itself makes one closer to God. Gentiles do not have a Jewish soul, obviously.

4. About a real genuine relationship with God, that would depend on the limitations of how far you take 3.1. In some more extreme versions, nope, because connection via a Jewish soul is the only truly significant one, the only "real thing" (basically). In less extreme versions, sure, but I do not think that anyone actually denies that being Jewish makes for a different (not necessarily "more", but qualitatively different) connection with God? Maybe there are such opinions, but I have not encountered them.

5. Righteous Gentiles get into the next world.

 

What if the Gentile breaks one or more of those laws? How does one recover from that? Is it as simple as repenting and God forgiving and all being well for the afterlife?

 

I understand the need to be careful in your response. :) The internet can be a hard medium. You never know how your words will be taken and you never know who is reading. I do appreciate you giving me what you can.

 

Reading the Old Testament as a child, I remember feeling... less than. Why couldn't I be Jewish. Would God love me more? It's good to know that there is a concept of "righteous Gentile".

[Sputterduck]

It does bother me to be perceived as somewhat non-monotheistic, by the way. I assure you, I have one God. I know that's a whole long discussion though. :p

[Ester Maria]

All of us on this message board are living in modern times and I am as much removed from The Inquistion (I am of Spanish heritage) as I would think you, (Yael and Ester Maria) are. Am I wrong in my assumptions?

I do think that we tend to be more connected with our family burden and, by extension, with our collective national past, on average, compared to members of other nations.

 

Let me take your Spanish heritage as an example. How connected you actually are to it? How much of a role it actually has in your life? How much it defines you - are you American (presumably, forgive me if I am wrong about the location) for all purposes and this is simply an "aesthetic" accessory of a kind for you, or it is still a vital component of your family and your personal identity? For many Jews it is the latter.

 

[...]

 

Another problem is that MANY generations have lived through conflict with their surroundings, it was not one or two isolated incidents, but rather, a historical PATTERN.

So you can say, sure, but now everybody loves Jews, right? Jews are having it good now, people support them, they are integrated in a society, why not leave the past be past?

Well, in 20s-30s of the past century there were those who thought so, too. Jews were extremely well integrated in the secular German society of the time and like today in times on friendship, many people did not really think their neighbor Hans would ever... And the neighbor Hans did.

And before neighbor Hans, it was neighbor Alfonso in Spain, and neighbor XY in Z country, etc. It does not even have to be open hostility, many times the history has shown that the domicile nation cannot be trusted even in times of apparent friendship and well-being. In fact, it is one of the fine ironies of history that as much as Jews WANTED to fit and assimilate, it was regularly OTHER nations that kept "reminding" them of them being Jews and that kept singling them out for "special treatment" of some (negative) kind. Historically, it has gone MUCH beyond simple xenophobia you can find it any society - especially with the added religious burden. So, that has taught the Jews to stick together and to be always somewhat wary, even in good times. Many, many generations had bitter disappointments along the road and ended up, again, slapped with their being "different". And for many people, due to the continuous pattern and Jewish mobility, those experiences are still rather fresh family wounds, even in our generation, and they are very present in the collective imagination. Much of the Jewish identity is built on the us-them opposition, whether theologically or simply historically.

I think about how many Christians today support Israel and pray for Israel daily and stand by her.

Israel is a whole 'nother can of worms. :D

 

First, not all Jews are Zionists, not all of them think the idea of a Jewish state is a sound idea (some are even theologically opposed to it), so there are certainly non-Jews who are greater Zionists than Jews, LOL. :tongue_smilie:

 

However, a support to Israel is principally a support to a political structure, a state, not necessarily to a people. I have noticed that there is a trend, lately, to be philosemitic and profess one's love of Jews and Israel, but I think it only has a marginal importance in the big scheme of things. Concrete people usually care about other concrete people, so concrete relationships are built without all of those metaphysical and historical considerations and generalizations, so love of Israel neither makes or breaks a friendship for most people, and there is still this nasty overall dynamic.

 

[...]

 

Hope this helps. Keep in mind that this is only ONE perspective, and an insomniac one at that, LOL. :tongue_smilie:

Edited January 26, 2012 by Ester Maria
insomnia

[Sputterduck]

I know that a lot of Christians believe that Jewish history has been so awful because the are the chosen people of God and thus Satan has a special need to hurt them. :(

[Spy Car]

Is there a specific term for what I meant, though? For the whole outreach spirit, wanting to witness to others and broaden the circle of believers, or even seeing it as a duty? That is what I had in mind, not salvation issues.

 

I think the best term to distinguish between the two faiths IMO is to say that Christianity (like Islam) is a "proselytizing" religion, where Judaism is not.

 

But if you want to speak of the spirit of witnessing using an "in-group" term that would be "Evangelical."

 

Bill

[Ibbygirl]

I do think that we tend to be more connected with our family burden and, by extension, with our collective national past, on average, compared to members of other nations.

 

Let me take your Spanish heritage as an example. How connected you actually are to it? How much of a role it actually has in your life? How much it defines you - are you American (presumably, forgive me if I am wrong about the location) for all purposes and this is simply an "aesthetic" accessory of a kind for you, or it is still a vital component of your family and your personal identity?

 

I have a Spanish heritage too, in that my mother is Sephardic. At some point, Jews were expelled from Spain en masse, about the end of 15th century. Most of what we know as Sephardic Jewry today have never actively lived in Spain again. YET:

- Have you ever heard Ladino? It is basically the oldest surviving form of Spanish, literally a language encapsulated in time.

My mother's generation, in 20th century and several countries away (from having moved around in Mediterranean and Middle East before), were still native speakers of Ladino, and there are some even in my generation. Sephardic Jews literally retained their linguistic identity throughout all those centuries all over the place.

- It is not only language as a medium of communication, it is also songs (a very rich musical culture), it is also physical artefacts (my - now very extended, but still, organically my - family STILL holds the key of the house in Spain somewhere, of a property which most likely no longer exists, which nobody could locate anyway because so many generations passed... yet the emotional attachment that carries over to silly little details like this is still there), it is also a continuous self-representation (all these centuries afterwards, Sephardic Jews still identify not only with their Jewish, but with their specifically "Spanish" heritage!), a living identity within an identity.

 

Now, this is connection to one's "less important" component of Jewish identity. Square this several times to get the fundamental importance of one's primary Jewish identity, that was carried out through so many centuries in so many lands, in so many historical circumstances which additionally kept the nation together... It is just different. :) From what I gather, most non-Jews do NOT have that kind of a very intimate relationship with your own, your family's, and your nation's historical journey over millenia.

 

Another problem is that MANY generations have lived through conflict with their surroundings, it was not one or two isolated incidents, but rather, a historical PATTERN.

So you can say, sure, but now everybody loves Jews, right? Jews are having it good now, people support them, they are integrated in a society, why not leave the past be past?

Well, in 20s-30s of the past century there were those who thought so, too. Jews were extremely well integrated in the secular German society of the time and like today in times on friendship, many people did not really think their neighbor Hans would ever... And the neighbor Hans did.

And before neighbor Hans, it was neighbor Alfonso in Spain, and neighbor XY in Z country, etc. It does not even have to be open hostility, many times the history has shown that the domicile nation cannot be trusted even in times of apparent friendship and well-being. In fact, it is one of the fine ironies of history that as much as Jews WANTED to fit and assimilate, it was regularly OTHER nations that kept "reminding" them of them being Jews and that kept singling them out for "special treatment" of some (negative) kind. Historically, it has gone MUCH beyond simple xenophobia you can find it any society - especially with the added religious burden. So, that has taught the Jews to stick together and to be always somewhat wary, even in good times. Many, many generations had bitter disappointments along the road and ended up, again, slapped with their being "different". And for many people, due to the continuous pattern and Jewish mobility, those experiences are still rather fresh family wounds, even in our generation, and they are very present in the collective imagination. Much of the Jewish identity is built on the us-them opposition, whether theologically or simply historically.

 

Israel is a whole 'nother can of worms. :D

 

First, not all Jews are Zionists, not all of them think the idea of a Jewish state is a sound idea (some are even theologically opposed to it), so there are certainly non-Jews who are greater Zionists than Jews, LOL. :tongue_smilie:

 

However, a support to Israel is principally a support to a political structure, a state, not necessarily to a people. I have noticed that there is a trend, lately, to be philosemitic and profess one's love of Jews and Israel, but I think it only has a marginal importance in the big scheme of things. Concrete people usually care about other concrete people, so concrete relationships are built without all of those metaphysical and historical considerations and generalizations, so love of Israel neither makes or breaks a friendship for most people.

 

Many people, however, do keep some "safeguards", for lack of a better expression, when it comes to the active inclusion of non-Jews in their private lives, especially in the more religious communities. You would typically not notice it, because you would feel the personal warmth and probably feel accepted and loved as an acquaintance or a friend, but "so it would happen" that all of a family's truly close friends (those that serious life favors are being done for and asked from) are Jews, that their children also largely socialize Jewish and ultimately marry Jewish, etc. IOW, you would be accepted into a "personal sphere" (which is an improvement compared to some historical situations, LOL), but probably never quite make it into the "very personal sphere", in spite of the good atmosphere and all. There would be some invisible (to you) lines. This is NOT universal, of course, but it is still quite common.

 

Hope this helps. Keep in mind that this is only ONE perspective, and an insomniac one at that, LOL. :tongue_smilie:

 

Thank you so much Ester Maria! I really appreciate your taking the time to explain all of that to me. I feel so honored. I greatly esteem your mind and reasoning and I feel so honored that you would take the time to talk to little old me. :grouphug:

 

I think I understand now. Your putting it into the context of family really cemented the concept for me.

 

I am American and my daughter is the 5th generation now (on the women's side) to be born and raised in the US (here in Florida),(we only have 4 generations in the US on the men's side) but we have managed to maintain our culture in spite of being here for so long. I understand the "encapsulated in time" as well because in a sense in my family, we are still living the language and culture of the ones who brought us to this country and who fought to preserve our family history and culture. So as a result, I am very much more old fashioned in some ways than people who have come her in more recent generations.

 

My family lived in a Latin (Spanish speaking) neighborhood which greatly enabled them to maintain their cultural heritage in spite of being here for so many generations now. I grew up speaking both Spanish and English and my daughter too has to learn Spanish. My husband also is a native Spanish speaker.

 

I can trace my family all the way back to Spain. My great grandfather's parents were from Asturias and my great grandmother's parents were from the Canary Islands. I even know what neighborhoods they lived in from family stories etc. But even all of that only takes me back to the early to mid 1800's.

 

I cannot imagine being able to trace my roots all the way back for thousands of years the way you can. What a rich and amazing cultural heritage you have Ester Maria. I can understand why it is so closely guarded.

 

Thank you again so kindly for taking the time to speak with me. I greatly appreciate your insights. Insomnia and all. :)

 

besos y abrazos :grouphug::grouphug:

 

Jennifer

Edited January 26, 2012 by Ibbygirl

[Spy Car]

My question then is when Jews think about Christians do they always go so far back in history??

 

 

All of us on this message board are living in modern times and I am as much removed from The Inquistion (I am of Spanish heritage) as I would think you, (Yael and Ester Maria) are. Am I wrong in my assumptions?

 

 

My parents (non-Jewish Americans) were adults at the time of Holocaust. There are still survivors of that horror living today. It is not just "ancient history."

 

I think about how many Christians today support Israel and pray for Israel daily and stand by her.

 

You don't think Jews realize that many of their Evangelical friends "support" Israel because they think it will fulfill the conditions that Christians believe will bring on a "second coming." An event that (according to Christian scripture) could end with many Jews being thrown into eternal flames. All who do not abandon their religion in favor of Christianity burn forever.

 

This relationship is not "friendship" but mutual expediency. It is a dangerous relationship for Israelis and Jews on many levels.

 

Bill

[Karis]

 

I can't just let it go (and that's why I am Jewish).

 

Peace out,

Yael

 

 

No one is asking anyone to let anything go - except the animosity and deep feelings of hostility towards those you don't know but who collectively and conveniently represent a common enemy.

 

It is not a rejection of Self/ one's heritage.

 

What is it that compels us to nurse our wounds, pick the scabs, and repeatedly point out the scars?

 

(Humanity, not just any particular group)

 

For the Christian who has chosen to live outside of the cultural stereotypes of the Christian religion and chooses to celebrate the Biblical Holy Days - and not Jewish holidays - there is really no problem/ no contradiction for them.

 

 

The resentment and hurt are understood. Just remember that emotions are readily and easily exploitable things.

[YaelAldrich]

No one is asking anyone to let anything go - except the animosity and deep feelings of hostility towards those you don't know but who collectively and conveniently represent a common enemy.

 

It is not a rejection of Self/ one's heritage.

 

What is it that compels us to nurse our wounds, pick the scabs, and repeatedly point out the scars?

 

(Humanity, not just any particular group)

 

For the Christian who has chosen to live outside of the cultural stereotypes of the Christian religion and chooses to celebrate the Biblical Holy Days - and not Jewish holidays - there is really no problem/ no contradiction for them.

 

 

The resentment and hurt are understood. Just remember that emotions are readily and easily exploitable things.

 

Karis, you took my quote out of context and that in itself is annoying. Your desire that I (the Jews) get over the wounds we have suffered is far sight more than that. Ever heard of the aphorism, " Hurt me once, shame on me; hurt me twice, shame on you"? Well, what if I am hurt for about 2000 years over and over most of the time in the name of your G-d? Then what? Jews may be many things, but by G-d we aren't stupid.

 

The problem of Christian co-opting Jewish holidays (because that what Bibical holidays are -- do you sacrifice 70 oxen on Pentacost? Roast and eat a lamb and daub blood on your doorposts for Passover? Go to the Temple on Yom Kippur to watch the High Priest tie a red string on one goat and a white one on another -- didn't think so) isn't a problem for YOU since you believe your god and your religion have supplanted the Jewish one.

 

G-d said that the Jews were never to be a regular people and he makes sure that we remember that throughout history -- Holocaust, pogroms, all of European middle age history, pretty much the whole of the rise of Islam, Rome, Greece, Babylonia, Egypt.;) So not being a big nation or being able to assimilate away into nothingness doesn't surprise me. But I THINK I can retain the right to remember, thankyouverymuchifyoudon'tmind.

 

Personally, as an Orthodox Jew, I rarely think about what Christians do in their lives as I have lots of ritual obligations to fulfill every day in order for me to be right with G-d not to mention my religion is a vibrant and alive one, not one focused on the harm that has been done to us (that is what I call "Persecution" Judaism which many assimilated Jews practice in America today). But when asked I give my opinion. If you don't like it, move on and all will be happiness and roses.

 

Take care and enjoy that next "Bibical Holy Day"!

Edited January 26, 2012 by YaelAldrich
don't want people to think my faith is a downer...

[YaelAldrich]

I know that a lot of Christians believe that Jewish history has been so awful because the are the chosen people of God and thus Satan has a special need to hurt them. :(

 

OR that Christians believe that Jews got the opportunity to jump on the Jesus bandwagon and didn't and therefore will be persecuted throughout history for their mistake or until Jesus returns and all Jews will be toasty crispies in Hell for all eternity. :crying:

[Jay3fer]

I'm coming late to the party, and I just want to say I really respect and admire the heavy lifting done by Yael & Ester Maria (my middle name is Mary, and I get questions about it a LOT when people find out! "nice Jewish girl named after...").

 

I've written a series of blog posts on this topic:

- When Christians Celebrate Biblical Feasts, Part 1, Take 2, Part 3: When is Pesach?

All three posts are open to comments, and you're welcome to tell me I'm wrong (comment moderation is on to block spam, but I will post all legitimate comments, even if I do not agree with your views).

 

If you are legitimately interested in learning about Jewish holidays and traditions, whether or not you want to celebrate them, I also have lapbooks and other homemade resources for sale on CurrClick. I'm not an expert, by any means, so I do tons of research for each lapbook I put together. Though it's a little easier, I guess, now that I've been living a religious (observant) Jewish life for 22 years... :-)

 

There is lots of room for STUDY and CONVERSATION between faiths (I just bought several Christian books, mostly because our liberal-agenda local library system doesn't seem to carry any contemporary ones), but not much room for co-opting each other's beliefs.

 

As for what I "think about gentiles,"I think they make great in-laws, cousins, parents, nieces, nephews, etc! Few Jewish families are unaffected by intermarriage, and ours is no exception. My kids have six non-Jewish grandparents (complicated family!) and one Jewish one.

 

I'm sure the others have already pointed out that we believe "the righteous of all nations have a share in the world-to-come."

 

Indeed, this is probably the only religion in the world that believes it's EASIER to be "saved" if you're not a member. When my husband converted, the rabbis presiding asked him more than once, "you know that as you are now, you can be a good person, eat at McDonald's, and still go to heaven? Once you convert, you will no longer be able to do those things... you're obligated to live to a much more difficult standard.

 

Just a couple of thoughts. I appreciate how respectful this thread has been - yay!

[simka2]

 

We *aren't* your "history"... or your roots. We are our own, separate, vibrant, living tree.

 

:iagree:

 

 

We didn't stop growing when y'all planted your own 'tree'... and you can't really learn anything about that tree's "roots" from *our* tree. Judaism is not the foundation of Xtianity... your founders took our text (minus its context and the Oral Torah) and some of our language... and, yes, they themselves came out of Jewish families of that time... but they *left* us... cut themselves off and discarded the central belief system of their family of origin.

 

I have to VERY respectfully disagree with you here. I think one of the major handicaps Christian's have faced is their lack of real knowledge of what it meant for Jesus and many of the early Christian's to be Jewish. I agree that Christian's have done some horrific things, but I believe that they have only been able to do so because they are so divorced from that reality. I think the early church Fathers recognized the need for context and Tradition. Yes, those things were later lost to the vast majority of Christendom, but there is much we can learn from your tree's roots. Not to co-opt them for religous purposes, but to hopefully learn from and not lose those precious lessons. I believe it is incredibly dangerous to try to understand Jesus and the Apostles, separated from Judaism (both written and oral).

 

To understand their thinking, their values, their philosophies... iow your "roots", you (generic) need to look to the work they produced, not to the faith they rejected.

Is this how you approach your faith? Do you just look at it fruits? Do you not consider the culture various teachers were coming from? What about the Rabbi's that were primarly under Muslim rule...do you not understand their teaching through that lens. What about those under Christian rule? Do you not understand their words through that lens?

QUOTE]

 

 

Eliana, I appreciate your posts on this forum very much. I recently read this article and appreciated what this Rabbi had to say as well. Maybe, he is not well thought of...I do not know, but I did find what he had to say helpful.

 

http://www.bc.edu/dam/files/research_sites/cjl/texts/center/conferences/Bea_Centre_C-J_Relations_04-05/Laras.htm

 

There is of course still the fear or the suspicion that the true goal of the Christians is to attract the Jews to Christianity through dialogue, or that through these contacts those Jews who are less religiously motivated, and thus are more fragile, may be induced to abandon their religion and to embrace Christianity. I have the impression that, from a preliminary and substantial point of view, the true reason behind this resistance is not tied to a subliminal fear or reluctance, but is connected with considerations of a doctrinal type: unlike Christianity in relation with Judaism, Judaism does not need Christianity to understand or to comprehend itself. Today there is a tendency to talk of an “asymmetrical relation” that connects Jews and Christians at the level of dialogue. In other words, for a Christian the encounter with Israel means the rediscovery of one’s own roots, so that Christianity is more clearly defined, understood, and, so to speak, better justified. For a Jew the encounter with Christianity does not carry the same significance. On the contrary, in this second case, the encounter with the other becomes a source of tension and contradiction as soon as the figure of Jesus comes under discussion (and how could it be otherwise?) – a figure that, understood as divine and messianic, contrasts with Israel’s monotheistic or messianic conception.

 

In some regards we Christian's are at a disadvantage. We do need Judaism to understand our Faith.

Edited January 26, 2012 by simka2

[Ibbygirl]

I apologize for butting in to this thread. After reading the replies I realize how ignorant my question was and I feel really foolish now. I am sorry. I sincerely meant no harm. I know that I lack education and that I don't possess a great intellect either. I am so sorry for any negative feelings or pain that I may have caused with my stupid question. :( Please forgive me. :grouphug: :grouphug:

[YaelAldrich]

I apologize for butting in to this thread. After reading the replies I realize how ignorant my question was and I feel really foolish now. I am sorry. I sincerely meant no harm. I know that I lack education and that I don't possess a great intellect either. I am so sorry for any negative feelings or pain that I may have caused with my stupid question. :( Please forgive me. :grouphug: :grouphug:

I don't think your question was stupid. You haven't caused me any pain.

 

Learning is super important -- ain't that why we homeschool??

 

Yael

[Sputterduck]

OR that Christians believe that Jews got the opportunity to jump on the Jesus bandwagon and didn't and therefore will be persecuted throughout history for their mistake or until Jesus returns and all Jews will be toasty crispies in Hell for all eternity. :crying:

 

I don't just mean persecution from Christians. I mean also by Nazis, Muslims, etc. also. You've all had it from all sides.

[YaelAldrich]

I don't just mean persecution from Christians. I mean also by Nazis, Muslims, etc. also. You've all had it from all sides.

 

Ain't that the truth?

 

Here's a great set of lectures about the whys and hows of anti-semitism.

http://www.aish.com/sem/wtj/

[ElizaG]

In some regards we Christian's are at a disadvantage. We do need Judaism to understand our Faith.

It's important to acknowledge our roots and learn more about them, but I don't think that this needs to lead to our trying to emulate the practices of Second Temple Judaism. From a Catholic and Orthodox Christian perspective, the aspects of Jewish ritual that are significant to us have already been incorporated into our own liturgies, going back to apostolic times. And for those whose denominations are opposed to the use of liturgy and rituals for Christians, it seems sort of like cheating to take part in someone else's. It's like having your matzah and eating it, too. ;)

 

Then there's the anachronism issue. As several posters have pointed out, the Christian versions of the "Biblical Feasts" tend to include a lot of activities that didn't become part of Jewish practice until later centuries. These things are interesting to learn about as a "tourist," to use Ester Maria's term, but they don't have a direct relation to Jesus or the Church.

 

(Modern Catholics, for some reason, tend to overlook this last point entirely. One of our children got this Illustrated Gospel for Children for Christmas, and it consistently shows multitudes of Jewish men wearing yarmulkes, while Jesus and his disciples do not. The Amazon reviews praise the illustrations for being historically authentic. Um, okay. :confused:

 

ETA: Interestingly, the book does show Jesus wearing a skullcap as a young boy working in Joseph's carpenter shop. Maybe we're supposed to assume that he cast it off when he started his public ministry, a la bra burnings of the 1960's. :D )

Edited January 26, 2012 by Eleanor

[TracyR]

I am a real live Jew(ess) -- I am even Orthodox so I celebrate all these holidays and a whole bunch y'all don't-- and I am totally confused by it all.:001_huh:

 

First of all, Chanukah??? Not even in the Bible (Jewish or Christian) people! Purim too. Cute little holidays but NOT "Biblical" at all. I guess you celebrate Chanukah because a big to-do is made about them here in America (to compensate for Xmas). Jesus never celebrated Chanukah or Purim.

 

Second, why don't you call them by their REAL names? It took me a minute to figure out what a Festival of Trumpets is -- we don't use trumpets for Rosh HaShana, we use a ram's horn shofar. If you are going to do OUR holidays, at least call them by their correct name and spend the $500 to get a real build it yourself sukkah :001_smile: .

 

Third, but most important, didn't your god (Jesus) say that Christians did not need to be ritually circumcised (like with a knife on the man parts at eight days) but rather be circumcised in their hearts and that there was no need for the old covenant, that the Christians have a NEW covenant, no the old one (from the Jews) re-done up? You have holidays (love the trees and glittery lights and chocolate bunnies!) , you have a religion, why do you have co-opt ours??!?!? The Jewish holidays have NOTHING to do with Jesus (except as a Jew he did the Biblical ones).

 

I am saying a lot of this in somewhat of a tongue-in-cheek manner but there is some seriousness attached to it too. If you like Jewish stuff, great, but be truthful and say it is cool to do other religion's holiday stuff don't co-opt it.

 

 

Woh,, why do you feel you need to attack Christians on the board? Pretty bitter I might add.

 

One: Jesus is not a god to us. God is God and it is God alone we worship. It is through Jesus Christ His Son that we are saved, and by the Grace of God alone.

 

We aren't corrupting your religion. The Christian religion(originally Catholic then later on broken up by the Protestant Reformation) was started by Jesus Christ himself some 2,000 yrs ago. The son of God who was born by a virgin, performed miracles ( that were documented) , founded the Church, died sacrificially to achieve atonement, rose from the dead, and ascended into heaven, from which he will return. Jesus and his followers were Jewish. So many Jewish traditions continued to stay within the Christian religion and have been passed down from generation to generation. Jesus was not here to abolish the law but to full fill the law.

 

Now Protestant faiths all have their own laws and beliefs. There are some 30,000+ of them. But the Catholic church believes this: " a) Catholic. From a moral point of view, circumcision is permissible if, in accordance with therapeutic principles, it prevents a disease that cannot be countered in any other way

Pius XII, Discorsi e messaggi radiodiffusi, t. XIV, Rome 1952, s. 328-329"

But in the same breath the Catholic church does not believe in the mutilation of the body if its done on purpose," em 2297: Respect for bodily integrity

... Except when performed for strictly therapeutic medical reasons, directly intended amputations, mutilations, and sterilizations performed on innocent persons are against the moral law."

I suggest you learn about what Christianity, preferably the Catholic faith teaches since its the one church Christ handed over to the apostles :" You are Peter, and on this rock , you will build my church." Matthew 6:18 and there is one Catholic church. There are over 30,000 different Protestant faiths so there is no way you could get a good understanding of what they all teach because they are all so very different and unique in how they interpret scripture.

 

It wasn't Christ who believed against circumcision , why in fact he most likely was himself and never really gave it an afterthought. But it was the Christians who rejected it after Christ left the earth. " After the famous confrontation between Paul and other leaders of the early church (Acts 15 and Galatians 2), Christians pretty much rejected the necessity of circumcision for becoming a believer in Christ."

 

 

 

Many question the Mass of the Catholic church. Saying that its not in the Bible.

 

Well just like Jewish tradition, many things the Catholics do aren't in the Bible either. They have been passed down and kept for 2,000 yrs.

The word Christmas isn't in the Bible. But we celebrate it just like you do Chanukah. Passover explains many of the traditions held in Christianity. So why wouldn't we want to teach our children about this as well?

Here is a good link to understanding the connection between the two and why its important for our children to understand just as much as Jewish children understand the Passover as well : http://www.stlouisparish.org/pdfs/lectures/Jewish%20Passover%20--%20Catholic%20Mass.pdf

 

 

With all this scattered thought. Its sad to see someone on here spew about things they don't understand. In the end we can all learn from each other. We really can. Instead of beating each other up.

[Spy Car]

Woh,, why do you feel you need to attack Christians on the board? Pretty bitter I might add.

 

She did no such thing. Your false characterizations are out of line and you should apologize for making them.

 

Bill

[Mrs Mungo]

OK, now that I have taken the wee one to the bathroom, I think I can give another analogy people might get a chuckle from (since I have given some chuckles so far this evening -- am I on a (challah) roll?):

 

With apologies to SWB and Peace Press:

Activities you'll never see in the AG of SOTW (or why Jews like Christians to celebrate their own holidays)

1. When studying slavery in early America, put blackface (recipe included in the AG) on your children and have them get beaten, raped and forcibly separated from other family members (did I mention I am Black in addition to being an Orthodox Jew?)

2. When studying how the Native Americans got evicted/cheated of their lands in early American history, recreate the Trail of Tears with half your kids in brownface and fake feather costumes (which of course you made yourself -- you are a real HSer right?!?) and the other half carrying around guns made of paper towel insides. (did I mention I am 1/16 Cherokee too?)

 

I think these are poor examples because they have nothing to do with religion or cultural celebrations, they have to do with persecution. The equivalent for Jews would be more like setting up a mock concentration camp. That would be both offensive and inappropriate. But, learning about religious and/or cultural festivals? Those are fair game across many cultures and religions, not just Judaism.

 

We have activity guides that teach about totems, dream catchers, Native American dances and foods, Buddhist prayer wheels and more.

 

BUT, I do think there is a subtle difference between learning about such practices and culturally co-opting them. The latter is offensive to almost all cultures.

[Jay3fer]

I think these are poor examples because they have nothing to do with religion or cultural celebrations, they have to do with persecution. The equivalent for Jews would be more like setting up a mock concentration camp. That would be both offensive and inappropriate. But, learning about religious and/or cultural festivals? Those are fair game across many cultures and religions, not just Judaism.

 

We have activity guides that teach about totems, dream catchers, Native American dances and foods, Buddhist prayer wheels and more.

 

BUT, I do think there is a subtle difference between learning about such practices and culturally co-opting them. The latter is offensive to almost all cultures.

 

Those may not have been great examples, but the fact is that the AG encourages parents to learn about Judaism through Chanukah, the most over-hyped holiday, and one which is (in North America) the most watered down and overshadowed by its high-profile December neighbour on the calendar.

 

Sure, there's a lot of information about Chanukah out there, but I would have been more impressed if they'd picked a holiday that said more about Judaism and Jewish values... perhaps Shavuot. :lol:

 

Also, if you're studying Jews in the context of ancient history, Chanukah is just about the least ancient holiday you could get. The most ancient is Passover; that would have been a great place to start. (not OBSERVING Passover, just learning about it!)

 

However, even just learning about Chanukah is a step up. For many Christians and other non-Jews in the U.S., the only thing they learn about Judaism is the Holocaust, and that makes me so angry because a) it's a recent event in a very long history, and b) it's a negative event in which most Jews were passively persecuted.

 

Just as African-American history shouldn't end by talking about slavery, but with the dreams and accomplishments of the community, Jewish history should include the negatives but also give you an idea of who Jews are and what we stand for.

[justamouse]

I keep typing and erasing.

 

If we were to go all the way back to Jesus, wouldn't the founding of the religion based him him be called a cult by Jewish standards?

 

I don't want to put words in your mouth. That's a loaded word, and I don't mean it to be in the sense of attacking anyone, but perhaps that one words use could express why Jews feel the way they do about the co-opting of holidays? That the cult kids want all of your holidays, too? :D<----levity, people, adding in some levity.

 

Because I know if you use that word in Christian circles, and think about a cult co-opting Christian holidays, fur would fly.

[milovany]

Woh,, why do you feel you need to attack Christians on the board? Pretty bitter I might add.

 

Wow, I haven't gotten that at all from her posts. Have you read all the others too? There's a good discussion going on with gentleness and respect being shown on both sides. This is the first vitriolic post in the whole thread, I think. Please reconsider your words and thoughts.

 

ETA -- I thank our Jewish friends who have posted. I have learned some things and I appreciate the discussion. I tend to agree with some of the thoughts Simka posted. I do believe the Church has a history rooted in Judaism (although the Church is not the "fulfillment" of Judaism), so it means something to us even though we aren't (and oughtn't try to be) Jewish; but understandably the Church doesn't play the same (or any) role in the Jewish faith (your religion is just fine as it is TYVM) and from that perspective the Church is something new altogether.

Edited January 26, 2012 by milovaný