Christians who observes Jewish holidays

[YaelAldrich]

I think these are poor examples because they have nothing to do with religion or cultural celebrations, they have to do with persecution. The equivalent for Jews would be more like setting up a mock concentration camp. That would be both offensive and inappropriate. But, learning about religious and/or cultural festivals? Those are fair game across many cultures and religions, not just Judaism.

 

We have activity guides that teach about totems, dream catchers, Native American dances and foods, Buddhist prayer wheels and more.

 

BUT, I do think there is a subtle difference between learning about such practices and culturally co-opting them. The latter is offensive to almost all cultures.

 

My examples were carefully chosen. I did not touch religions specifically because they making such "activities" would offend people much more than I seem to have offended some here (peace be upon you too sister!). I could have written up a Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox Christian or Moslem one (the African/Eastern religions aren't nearly so touchy about such stuff -- I was a Religious Studies major in college and still study the topic for my own pleasure), but I figured I'd try to keep people from finding my house and burning it down. :D

 

Teaching ABOUT something is good , pretending to be someone (or worse twist what they conceive themselves to be to suit your needs) is not so good.

 

You are all welcome to visit my home to learn about Judaism or ask me any questions about Judaism. I truly believe that knowledge makes one stronger!

 

Come on over, ya'hear?

[Mrs Mungo]

Those may not have been great examples, but the fact is that the AG encourages parents to learn about Judaism through Chanukah, the most over-hyped holiday, and one which is (in North America) the most watered down and overshadowed by its high-profile December neighbour on the calendar.

 

But, the same could be said of other cultural/religious observances discussed in this and other activity guides. I disagree that learning about it or even acting out a Seder is inherently offensive. I *can* agree that culturally co-opting it and making it one of your own religious festivals would be.

 

I think a really good analogy to Native American religion would be the secular use of the sweat lodge. There were a lot of rules and practices regarding sweat lodge use. The widely publicized incident where secular sweat lodge use went really wrong and people died is a good example of why one shouldn't co-opt a practice like that, especially if you are going to ignore all traditional rules surrounding its use.

 

On the other hand, how about the secular practice of yoga? It is great exercise, but it is meant to be a religious practice. You can probably practice yoga for health, but if you start dabbling in the religious side or start wearing associated religious symbols, that is when I think you start treading dangerous ground.

 

Just as African-American history shouldn't end by talking about slavery, but with the dreams and accomplishments of the community, Jewish history should include the negatives but also give you an idea of who Jews are and what we stand for.[/Quote]I don't disagree.

 

Because I know if you use that word in Christian circles, and think about a cult co-opting Christian holidays, fur would fly.

 

?? There are religious groups that many evangelicals perceive to be "cults" that practice Christian holidays. There are also atheists who take part in supposedly Christian holidays.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Mrs Mungo

[simka2]

Eleanor, I agree, and I think you and Milovany have phrased what I was trying to say much better than I did. ;)

 

I have stayed mostly silent on this thread, because I have strong feelings against Christian's utilizing Jewish feasts for Christian purposes. :D

 

It's important to acknowledge our roots and learn more about them, but I don't think that this needs to lead to our trying to emulate the practices of Second Temple Judaism. From a Catholic and Orthodox Christian perspective, the aspects of Jewish ritual that are significant to us have already been incorporated into our own liturgies, going back to apostolic times. And for those whose denominations are opposed to the use of liturgy and rituals for Christians, it seems sort of like cheating to take part in someone else's. It's like having your matzah and eating it, too. ;)

 

Then there's the anachronism issue. As several posters have pointed out, the Christian versions of the "Biblical Feasts" tend to include a lot of activities that didn't become part of Jewish practice until later centuries. These things are interesting to learn about as a "tourist," to use Ester Maria's term, but they don't have a direct relation to Jesus or the Church.

 

(Modern Catholics, for some reason, tend to overlook this last point entirely. One of our children got this Illustrated Gospel for Children for Christmas, and it consistently shows multitudes of Jewish men wearing yarmulkes, while Jesus and his disciples do not. The Amazon reviews praise the illustrations for being historically authentic. Um, okay. :confused:

 

ETA: Interestingly, the book does show Jesus wearing a skullcap as a young boy working in Joseph's carpenter shop. Maybe we're supposed to assume that he cast it off when he started his public ministry, a la bra burnings of the 1960's. :D )

[HappyCrazyMama]

It's important to acknowledge our roots and learn more about them, but I don't think that this needs to lead to our trying to emulate the practices of Second Temple Judaism. From a Catholic and Orthodox Christian perspective, the aspects of Jewish ritual that are significant to us have already been incorporated into our own liturgies, going back to apostolic times. And for those whose denominations are opposed to the use of liturgy and rituals for Christians, it seems sort of like cheating to take part in someone else's. It's like having your matzah and eating it, too. ;)

 

Then there's the anachronism issue. As several posters have pointed out, the Christian versions of the "Biblical Feasts" tend to include a lot of activities that didn't become part of Jewish practice until later centuries. These things are interesting to learn about as a "tourist," to use Ester Maria's term, but they don't have a direct relation to Jesus or the Church.

 

(Modern Catholics, for some reason, tend to overlook this last point entirely. One of our children got this Illustrated Gospel for Children for Christmas, and it consistently shows multitudes of Jewish men wearing yarmulkes, while Jesus and his disciples do not. The Amazon reviews praise the illustrations for being historically authentic. Um, okay. :confused:

 

ETA: Interestingly, the book does show Jesus wearing a skullcap as a young boy working in Joseph's carpenter shop. Maybe we're supposed to assume that he cast it off when he started his public ministry, a la bra burnings of the 1960's. :D )

 

I've been following this thread and I agree with the bolded part. We have been attending a non-denominational church for a few years. Last year they had a Seder, we didn't go but I remember thinking, "Why not Good Friday or other Holy Week services?" (We attended Lutheran churches prior.;))

 

Back to your fascinating discussion, carry on.:D

Edited January 26, 2012 by Happyhomemama
oops, wrong service :/

[Mrs Mungo]

Teaching ABOUT something is good , pretending to be someone (or worse twist what they conceive themselves to be to suit your needs) is not so good.

 

I think it can be difficult to see where to draw the line.

 

Let's take...Bruce Lee. My dh was into martial arts for a long time, so I know a lot about Bruce Lee and his struggles. Bruce Lee started off studying Wing Chun. When other students found out that his mom was half white, they refused to train with him because the Chinese were generally against teaching martial arts to non-Chinese. Why? One can imagine for reasons very much like objections raised in this thread. Martial arts had associated religious practices. The popularity of "secular" martial arts today is partially a direct result of Bruce Lee's popularity and legend.

 

How about the Boy Scouts co-opting Native American practices/names? How about the YMCA organization "Indian Princesses?"

 

How about random people getting mehndi for non-ceremonial purposes?

 

How about Gwen Stefani wearing a Bindi?

 

A book promoting non-existent made-up Native American practices that were really just a bunch of new age BS caused a giant fight on another board I was on.

 

I don't know. It's a really difficult subject. I can see both sides to some extent.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Mrs Mungo

[ElizaG]

Wow, I haven't gotten that at all from her posts. Have you read all the others too? There's a good discussion going on with gentleness and respect being shown on both sides.

Overall, I'd agree, but this came across as very offensive to me, even if it wasn't intended that way:

 

Third, but most important, didn't your god (Jesus) say (...)

 

I realize that that Jewish people don't believe in the Trinity, and many of them view Christians as idolaters. But there has to be a better way to word the above passage -- especially as it purports to be discussing things from the Christian perspective. The way it's written, it doesn't even seem to imply that we worship Jesus Christ as a separate deity along with the true God, but rather, instead of Him. At best, it's insensitive. And whatever someone's ancestors might have done to someone else's ancestors, we are supposed to be on our best behavior in this sort of Internet dialogue/discussion. So I hope it was just a typing-before-thinking sort of thing, but it still hurt.

 

To look at it another way... if there were Muslims involved in this discussion, and a Christian made a reference to "your god (Allah)," I think that would be seen as rude. Not that I myself believe that they worship a different deity, but there are some Christians who do think that. Either way, being so blunt about it isn't exactly going to make for friendly and respectful discourse.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Eleanor

[Parrothead]

Eleanor, I agree, and I think you and Milovany have phrased what I was trying to say much better than I did. ;)

 

I have stayed mostly silent on this thread, because I have strong feelings against Christian's utilizing Jewish feasts for Christian purposes. :D

:iagree:

[YaelAldrich]

Overall, I'd agree, but this came across as very offensive to me, even if it wasn't intended that way:

 

 

 

I realize that that Jewish people don't believe in the Trinity, and many of them view Christians as idolaters. But there has to be a better way to word the above passage -- especially as it purports to be discussing things from the Christian perspective. The way it's written, it doesn't even seem to imply that we worship Jesus Christ as a separate deity along with the true God, but rather, instead of Him. At best, it's insensitive. And whatever someone's ancestors might have done to someone else's ancestors, we are supposed to be on our best behavior in this sort of Internet dialogue/discussion. So I hope it was just a typing-before-thinking sort of thing, but it still hurt.

 

To look at it another way... if there were Muslims involved in this discussion, and a Christian made a reference to "your god (Allah)," I think that would be seen as rude. Not that I myself believe that they worship a different deity, but there are some Christians who do think that. Either way, being so blunt about it isn't exactly going to make for friendly and respectful discourse.

 

I am sorry if that offended you. I have had too many Christians assume that Jews believe in Jesus too. They cannot believe that anyone doesn't believe in Jesus. He isn't my deity and while I understand Christians worship Jesus as the same as G-d and also the Holy Spirit, Jews do not. I cannot in honesty write "Him" because he isn't a "Him" to me. I will not phrase Jesus as "your god" again.

 

My apologies.

[[email protected]]

This discussion has been fruitful and respectful. Please, all of you, refrain from criticizing the "tone" of others, and interact with ideas only.

 

Moderator

[EKS]

Couldn't the same be said by Christians about Easter and Christmas?

 

Weren't Christmas and Easter co-opted from the pagans?

[kewb]

I have been thinking about this thread all day. I really had a think about my thoughts on the subject. My gut reaction is "It is offensive". But I had to think about why. It is not easy to put into words.

 

For me, Christians have their holidays and we have ours. I have no issue inviting my Christian friends to our home to partake of Holiday celebrations and traditions. I have no issue going to friends homes to celebrate theirs. But, the thought of said friend going home and saying: That was great. I feel so connected to JC and feel like I understand him better that we are going to celebrate this in our own home next year with all of our Christian friends, um, well, it kind of makes me a little ill. These are the traditions and observances that have been part of my life since the day I was born. They are part of the chain that links me to my past and connects me to my fellow Jews. They are part of the very core of my being. They are not simply a chance to gather with friends and family. They are history. My history. The history that my children are growing up with. The history that grounds them to who they are and to where they came from. I simply do not believe that all that the traditions meaning can be replicated in a home where that meaning does not exists. It seems to me to be on par with playing dress up. It is fun but I am not really a pretty, pretty princess living in a castle. A Christian reenacting a Jewish tradition in their home is not really experiencing life as Jesus did. They are a Christian attempting something that is not truly theirs. I get the wanting to know the traditions that Jesus Christ would observe, however, there is a difference between studying something and adding it to your own traditions.

 

All that rambling aside, it is a free country. People can practice their religion however they want. Whether I am offended or not will not stop someone from doing what they believe to be the right thing.

[ElizaG]

I cannot in honesty write "Him" because he isn't a "Him" to me. I will not phrase Jesus as "your god" again.

Thank you -- it is much appreciated. :001_smile:

 

I have to say, although our family has plenty of our own feasts and liturgies to celebrate, I'm inclined to look a bit wistfully at the special role of the Jewish homemaker. Among Catholic mothers, when we wash the dishes or cook dinner, it's pretty much just another everyday thing we do for our families. In the bigger picture, it's a part of our calling/vocation -- and one of our popes has called the family the "domestic church" -- but each activity isn't typically seen as a spiritual thing in itself. It's an ongoing challenge for us to look beyond the mundane aspects and tune in to a deeper meaning, whereas for you folks, it's built in.

 

It's my understanding that when the temple was destroyed (and thus, there was no priesthood or sacrifice), this intensified the importance of Jewish religious observance in the home. But of course it was there to a great extent even before that, with things like Passover and the kosher laws. Anyway, I find that this domestic aspect is one of the more appealing parts of Jewish tradition. (Which makes it all the more strange that Christianized seders so often take place on folding chairs and tables in church basements. :confused: )

[Mrs Mungo]

Weren't Christmas and Easter co-opted from the pagans?

 

It depends upon whom you ask. It is sort of like a couple of religious holidays married a couple of pagan holidays and had babies.

 

The real problem? The fact that Christianity was birthed within Roman culture. The Romans were the opposite of the Crusaders. When the conquered a people they were all, "oh, you worship that god? He sounds *amazing*, we'll add him in and worship him too."

 

It all sort of falls into place when you go somewhere like Venice. You'll see paintings (sometimes in churches!) that feature Roman gods and Christian saints in the same scene. They have Carnivale and ceremonies where they make offers to Neptune. The Romans were the ultimate in cultural appropriation.

[Mrs Twain]

All that rambling aside, it is a free country. People can practice their religion however they want.

 

I have a lot of Muslim friends who celebrate Christmas. They don't understand what the Bible says about Jesus or celebrate Christmas the same way I do, but it does not offend me in the least. All of my Muslim friends came to the USA so that they could be free and escape oppression.

 

I don't think it is any of my business what holidays people celebrate or how they celebrate them.

[Spy Car]

I think these are poor examples because they have nothing to do with religion or cultural celebrations, they have to do with persecution. The equivalent for Jews would be more like setting up a mock concentration camp. That would be both offensive and inappropriate. But, learning about religious and/or cultural festivals? Those are fair game across many cultures and religions, not just Judaism.

 

I've never know of a Jew having a bad reaction to sincere people wanting to learn about Jewish traditions or having them participate in cultural holidays on Jewish terms.

 

This is very different than the reaction to the expropriation of Jewish holidays by thoe who would turn them into Christian holidays.

 

Gentiles are often honored with invitations to Seder dinners, this is an expression of brotherhood. But when non-Jews (or ethnically Jewish people who practice Christianity) conduct "Christian Seders" it provokes bad blood, especially when these trappings are use as part of proselytizing efforts targeted at Jews. You must understand this.

 

We light a Chunukiah every year and it is well appreciated by our Jewish neighbors in part because they know we are not uspuping their faith or traditions for our own purposes (other than enjoying the spirit of friendship). But adding Christian elements to Passover and other religious holidays and calling it "Completed Judaism" is offensive to Jews. It is not difficult to understand why.

 

We have activity guides that teach about totems, dream catchers, Native American dances and foods, Buddhist prayer wheels and more.

 

There is a big difference between "activity guides" (such as Haggadahs on Pesach/Passover) that emanate from Jewish organizations and those from so-called "Messianic" organizations that believe Jesus is God.

 

Native Americans might welcome others sincere interest in their traditions and be happy to share, but I imagine they would have different feeling about non-Indians "inventing" or distorting Native American practices in ways that directly counter authentic traditions.

 

BUT, I do think there is a subtle difference between learning about such practices and culturally co-opting them. The latter is offensive to almost all cultures.

 

It is not a "subtle" difference, there is a glaring contrast between respecting other people's traditions and co-opting them (especially in ways that run exactly counter to those traditions).

 

Bill

Edited January 26, 2012 by Spy Car

[stripe]

I have to say, although our family has plenty of our own feasts and liturgies to celebrate, I'm inclined to look a bit wistfully at the special role of the Jewish homemaker. Among Catholic mothers, when we wash the dishes or cook dinner, it's pretty much just another everyday thing we do for our families. In the bigger picture, it's a part of our calling/vocation -- and one of our popes has called the family the "domestic church" -- but each activity isn't typically seen as a spiritual thing in itself. It's an ongoing challenge for us to look beyond the mundane aspects and tune in to a deeper meaning, whereas for you folks, it's built in.

 

I think this is a shame, but I see no reason an institution needs to condone or advocate your attribution of a spiritual purpose behind homemaking. This is something I think we should try to do, but it ends up being quietly in our hearts.

[Mrs Mungo]

This is very different than the reaction to the expropriation of Jewish holidays by thoe who would turn them into Christian holiday.

 

Gentiles are often honored with invitations to Seder dinners, this is an expression of brotherhood. But when non-Jews (or ethically Jewish people who practice Christianity) conduct "Christian Seders" it provokes bad blood, especially when these trappings are use as part of proselytizing efforts targeted at Jews. You must understand this.

 

I know Christians who have held Seders with the intent of acknowledging a history, a connection with the Jewish faith. I have *never* seen them attempt to proselytize to other religions through that sort of ceremony.

 

We light a Chunukiah every year and it is well appreciated by our Jewish neighbors in part because they know we are not uspuping their faith or traditions for our own purposes (other than enjoying the spirit of friendship). But adding Christian elements to Passover and other religious holidays and calling it "Completed Judaism" is offensive to Jews. It is not difficult to understand why.

 

Again, I've never seen this happen.

 

There is a big difference between "activity guides" (such as Haggadahs on Pesach/Passover) that emanate from Jewish organizations and those from so-called "Messianic" organizations that believe Jesus is God.

 

I was speaking about purely secular activity guides.

 

Native Americans might welcome others sincere interest in their traditions and be happy to share, but I imagine they would have different feeling about non-Indians "inventing" or distorting Native American practices in ways that directly counter authentic traditions.

 

I agree. This is exactly what I was saying.

 

It is not a "subtle" difference, there is a glaring contrast between respecting other people's traditions and co-opting them (especially in ways that run exactly counter to those traditions).

 

Sometimes the difference is glaring and sometimes it is subtle.

[unsinkable]

Have we covered what a Jewish homeschooling family calls it when they study their own religion?

 

When you call the kids to come and study, what do you yell out?

 

"Come on, kids! It's time to study ___________________!"

 

Would that blank ever be filled in with the word "Bible?"

 

Just wonderin'.

[NASDAQ]

We're an Orthodox Jewish family.

 

I find it offensive at worst and deeply off-putting at best when Christians celebrate Jewish holidays. First, those holidays are Jewish and were abandoned by Christians several thousand years ago. Second, Judaism exists in contradistinction to Christianity and always has. Christianity is a Jewish _heresy_, not a Jewish variation. Christians may see themselves as "grafted in," but Jews see them as an entirely different religion. Finally, the Christians who celebrate Jewish holidays do not celebrate them correctly, that is, in a Jewish fashion. Judaism is a religion of specificity. There are very strict rules on what a Sukkah is, how big it is, what it is made of, what you can put on it, where it can be positioned. It's not just any hut you throw up under a tree in your back yard. Shabbes is not just lighting candles and taking the day off of work. Passover is not just a Seder. There are two billion (give or take) Christians and eighteen million Jews, so if even a fraction of Christians attempting Jewish holidays, then more people will be celebrating pretend-Sukkos than real-Sukkos.

 

I don't quite see the relevance of Christmas and Easter celebration by non-Christians. That's an issue for the Christians to handle. Christianity is a very different religion (it's missionary, it's a much larger religion, it's creedal rather than tribal) and might have different conclusions on the matter. I don't know any Orthodox Jews who celebrate Christmas or Easter, CVS.

 

If someone wants to learn about Jewish holidays, that is wonderful. They are welcome at my table. I will suggest many wonderful books to them. Learning is a good thing. I have learned about, say, mass. I do not need to hold a mass in my home or synagogue in order to do this. And if non-Jews want to learn about holidays, the correct way is not by celebrating versions of those holidays in their home, or by claiming that those holidays are Christian or partially-Christian.

[NASDAQ]

Have we covered what a Jewish homeschooling family calls it when they study their own religion?

 

When you call the kids to come and study, what do you yell out?

 

"Come on, kids! It's time to study ___________________!"

 

Would that blank ever be filled in with the word "Bible?"

 

Just wonderin'.

 

I don't know anyone who would call it Bible. We say Hebrew and Parsha, depending on which one we're doing. Parsha is the section of the Torah we're reading right now. I think the over-riding word would be "Torah."

[Spy Car]

 

Sure, there's a lot of information about Chanukah out there, but I would have been more impressed if they'd picked a holiday that said more about Judaism and Jewish values... perhaps Shavuot. :lol:

 

Also, if you're studying Jews in the context of ancient history, Chanukah is just about the least ancient holiday you could get. The most ancient is Passover; that would have been a great place to start. (not OBSERVING Passover, just learning about it!)

 

However, even just learning about Chanukah is a step up. For many Christians and other non-Jews in the U.S., the only thing they learn about Judaism is the Holocaust, and that makes me so angry because a) it's a recent event in a very long history, and b) it's a negative event in which most Jews were passively persecuted.

 

 

 

I know that we enjoy having some Chanukah traditions in our home precisely because this is one of the least religiously significant Jewish holidays. So we are maximizing expressions of solidarity and respect for our friends and neighbors when they see the Chanukiah burning in our front window, while minimizing expropriation of a religious holiday.

 

Personally I would not dream of doing the same with Pesach, much less the High Holy Days. So non-Jews enjoying Chanukah or going to a Purim festival may be signs of cultural sensitivity rather than signs of ignorance.

 

Bill

[YaelAldrich]

Thank you -- it is much appreciated. :001_smile:

 

I have to say, although our family has plenty of our own feasts and liturgies to celebrate, I'm inclined to look a bit wistfully at the special role of the Jewish homemaker. Among Catholic mothers, when we wash the dishes or cook dinner, it's pretty much just another everyday thing we do for our families. In the bigger picture, it's a part of our calling/vocation -- and one of our popes has called the family the "domestic church" -- but each activity isn't typically seen as a spiritual thing in itself. It's an ongoing challenge for us to look beyond the mundane aspects and tune in to a deeper meaning, whereas for you folks, it's built in.

 

It's my understanding that when the temple was destroyed (and thus, there was no priesthood or sacrifice), this intensified the importance of Jewish religious observance in the home. But of course it was there to a great extent even before that, with things like Passover and the kosher laws. Anyway, I find that this domestic aspect is one of the more appealing parts of Jewish tradition. (Which makes it all the more strange that Christianized seders so often take place on folding chairs and tables in church basements. :confused: )

 

The home is the center of Jewish life; much of the ritual observance happens there. It is nice! BUT, it is expensive! Two or three sets of dishes, pots, silverware for regular meals in a kosher house and another one or two sets for Passover. I thrill at seeing chicken for $1.99 a lb and ground beef (not extra lean or angus) for $2.99. A brisket is $7.99-$12.99/lb. Special ritual matzo (not the kind you find in the store) for the seder - $16-30 for 6-8 sheets (1 lb) and you need 1.5-2 for each person at the seder. We know we are blessed by G-d, we couldn't afford this lifestyle if not for His grace smiling on us!:tongue_smilie::lol::tongue_smilie:

 

Not to mention that we put together a 3-5 course meal twice a week. Here's my menu for one recent week:

Friday night:

Challah (homemade)

chumus

guacamole

olives

moroccan carrot salad

tuna borekas

Kosher Pastry Oven Chickpeas

Lentil-Sausage soup

tunisian meatballs with chickpeas

brown rice

roasted sweet potatoes

apple-cranberry kugel

green beans

coconut lime bars

chocolate chip cookies

cinnamon coffee cake

 

Shabbos day:

 

Challah (homemade)

chumus

guacamole

olives

moroccan carrot salad

green salad

lima bean stew

roasted turkey breast with za'atar

mashed potato and mushroom galette

apple-cranberry kugel

desserts as above

 

S.Seudos (3rd meal)

Tuna borekas

salads from Shabbos

 

It's like a double Thanksgiving every week -- but you have to get it all done BEFORE the Sabbath begins! In the winter, 4pm and then you have to stop! Most of my friends work out of the house at least part time too!

 

Eleanor, you can come over tomorrow and participate by peeling our holy potatoes and carrots! Be here by 8, ok? ;) ;);)

Edited January 26, 2012 by YaelAldrich
oopsies as usual!

[Xilka]

Well....

I'm a Jesus-loving atheist who celebrates Jewish holidays, if that counts.

My friend and neighbor is Jewish and we've become regulars,

and I love a lot of the principles and symbolism in the celebrations -

like taking time to think about the past 7 days,

lighting two candles so that we may never stand alone,

spilling the wine for abundance...

[Spy Car]

Have we covered what a Jewish homeschooling family calls it when they study their own religion?

 

I don't know anyone who would call it Bible. We say Hebrew and Parsha, depending on which one we're doing. Parsha is the section of the Torah we're reading right now. I think the over-riding word would be "Torah."

 

To amplify just a bit, the (written) "Torah" refers to the 5 books of Moses (Pentateuch).

 

Those who are being precise will refer to the physically tangible writings as "Torah" when they are in the form of a scroll that conforms to the requirements of Jewish law (Halakha) and to these same writings as "Chumash" when they are in the form of a book.

 

The entire (written) Hebrew Bible is called the Tanakh, a name that comes from combining Torah, Nevi'im (Prophets) and Ketuvim (Writings).

 

Bill

[ElizaG]

Eleanor, you can come over tomorrow and participate by peeling our holy potatoes and carrots! Be here by 8, ok? ;) ;);)

:D Sorry, I have to defrost the fish sticks for our own ritual observance. That is some hard work, you know. ;)

[Mrs Mungo]

I find it offensive at worst and deeply off-putting at best when Christians celebrate Jewish holidays. First, those holidays are Jewish and were abandoned by Christians several thousand years ago. Second, Judaism exists in contradistinction to Christianity and always has. Christianity is a Jewish _heresy_, not a Jewish variation. Christians may see themselves as "grafted in," but Jews see them as an entirely different religion.

 

This makes it sound as if the very existence of Christianity is offensive. I would guess that the use of The Old Testament is also offensive?

 

Christians do believe that Jesus is the fulfillment of the law, there is no getting around that. So, it sounds like our very existence is offensive.

[unsinkable]

So the Parsha would be the same readings for everyone throughout the world?

 

Roman Catholics (and other demoninations) do this. The daily readings are the same for everyone, everywhere.

[NASDAQ]

This makes it sound as if the very existence of Christianity is offensive. I would guess that the use of The Old Testament is also offensive?

 

Christians do believe that Jesus is the fulfillment of the law, there is no getting around that. So, it sounds like our very existence is offensive.

 

Not offensive. Incorrect in essential and serious ways. Judaism doesn't consider Christianity to be just another acceptable riff on Judaism (like, say, Yeshivish vs. Lubavitch vs. Modern Orthodox), at least not for a Jew. Opinions on whether it's a violation of Jewish law as to pertains to non-Jews differ. And Jews consider the way that Christians use the Hebrew Bible to be incorrect.

 

AFAIK Christians believe that Jews are barking up the wrong tree too, that we rejected god in man-form, rejected eternal salvation, and are going to suffer eschatologically for it.

[NASDAQ]

So the Parsha would be the same readings for everyone throughout the world?

 

Yes, the Parsha is the same for everyone (pretty much. Some Reform congregations use a three-year cycle). It's similar to the Catholic cycle, but ours goes through the whole of the first five books in order every year.

[Jay3fer]

A few thoughts spurred by this amazing RESPECTFUL discussion...!

 

Have we covered what a Jewish homeschooling family calls it when they study their own religion?

 

When you call the kids to come and study, what do you yell out?

 

"Come on, kids! It's time to study ___________________!"

 

Would that blank ever be filled in with the word "Bible?"

 

Just wonderin'.

 

We sure don't use the word "Bible," which no religious Jews use if they can help it. It just sounds wrong. I have a "Bible," a Hebrew OT/NT send to me by a missionary organization. (yes, they have the NT not in Greek but translated into Hebrew... )

 

When it's Hebrew language in the workbook, I say Hebrew; when it's on the computer, I call it "Rosetta Stone" :lol:. When it's a holiday coming up, I just call it the name of the holiday ("Let's work on our Pesach lapbook."). If we're studying Bible specifically, I say "Chumash," which means "five" and stands for the 5 books of the Torah.

 

In my older dd's high school, there are finer gradations: safa (language), dikduk (grammar), dinim (laws, holidays etc), hashkafa (worldview), biur tefillah (prayer), navi (prophets), tehillim (psalms), bekius (Bible overview) and a few more. Boys also learn gemara (Talmud) and mussar (outlook).

 

“The lechatchila time for shacharis is neitz. B’dieved, if a person davened from amud hashachar and onwards he is yotzei. In a shas hadchak he may daven from amud hashachar and onwards lechatchila…. After chatzos it is assur to daven shacharis. One should wait till after mincha and then daven a tashlumin. The possibility for a tashlumin doesn’t exist for someone who was bemaizid.â€

 

:lol::lol::lol: Hey, I understood the whole thing. Not bad for a kid who went to public school...!

 

This makes it sound as if the very existence of Christianity is offensive. I would guess that the use of The Old Testament is also offensive? Christians do believe that Jesus is the fulfillment of the law, there is no getting around that. So, it sounds like our very existence is offensive.

 

Well... well... I think there are different interpretations of the phrase "fulfillment of the law."

 

If by fulfill you mean, "so now nobody has to do all that stuff anymore and anybody who does is foolish indeed for it has nothing whatsoever to do with one's spiritual redemption nowadays... um, yes, I would be offended by that.

 

Because you'd be saying that our entire faith is irrelevant. :-(((

 

And by the way, when I say faith, I mean religion. Christians like to use the word faith, because the primary "act" of Christianity is to HAVE faith. Jews are more likely to use religion or to say they are observant. In every movement, Judaism is more about what you do than what you believe.

 

Among Catholic mothers, when we wash the dishes or cook dinner, it's pretty much just another everyday thing we do for our families.

 

I love the home-based role of the family... I love that I can be an observant Jew(ish woman) and almost NEVER go to shul... though I should set an example and go more often!!! (Saturday morning from 9-12 = my "day" to BE ALONE at home! :lol:) I love that our most important rituals take place around our own little table (not circumcisions; mighty grateful for that! :lol:).

 

Still, my Catholic MIL sent a fridge magnet with this quotation that might help you:

The most important person on earth is a mother. She cannot claim the honor of having built Notre Dame Cathedral. She need not. She has built something more magnificent than any cathedral -- a dwelling for an immortal soul, the tiny perfection of her baby's body.... The angels have not been blessed with such a grace. They cannot share in God's creative miracle to bring new saints to Heaven. Only a human mother can. Mothers are closer to God the Creator than any other human creature. God joins forces with mothers in performing this act of creation.... What on God's earth is more glorious than this: to be a mother. (Cardinal Joseph Mindszenty)

 

I know Christians who have held Seders with the intent of acknowledging a history, a connection with the Jewish faith. I have *never* seen them attempt to proselytize to other religions through that sort of ceremony.

 

I'm not saying they necessarily do, though there are Hebrew-Christian organizations that DO attempt to appeal to Jewish members ("believers") by promoting messianic seders, messianic bar mitzvahs, and other Jewish-tinted functions.

 

But I think you have to be careful when you're talking about what that connection specifically IS and what it MEANS to modern Christians.

 

In any event, I think the very best thing Christians can do - someone else here mentioned this already - is to get to know Christianity. If your own faith isn't fulfilling, doesn't offer enough feasts and fasts and whatnot, then find Christians who ARE doing those things - live your own religion to its fullest.

 

My MIL goes to mass every day and is probably so in tune with the church year that she's never thought to be envious or unfulfilled when Rosh Hashanah rolls around. Of course, she's probably in church in the first place to pray for her three sons... one gay, one 3x divorced, and my wonderful Jewish husband. :001_huh:

[YaelAldrich]

:D Sorry, I have to defrost the fish sticks for our own ritual observance. That is some hard work, you know. ;)

 

Well, I offered you a chance to receive real live Jewish holiness and you'd rather eat fish on Friday??!?:001_huh:

 

:lol::lol::lol:

 

Enjoy the fishsticks! In Jewish households, that's a Thursday night dinner (easy to prepare and neither dairy nor meat, which use precious dishware that will be used for Sabbath prep).

[Mrs Mungo]

It isn't offensive that you believe that, or that your faith holds that way. (Nor am I offended that, by Xtian theology, I am d@mned.)

 

Many Christians believe in Universalism-that all will be saved.

 

...but to come back, all these years later, and re-write the meanings of our holidays... to co-opt our observances, all of which have at their core values and beliefs *completely* incompatible with Xtian beliefs... uhm, yes, that is offensive.

But, Christians can't really win here, ultimately.

 

If by fulfill you mean, "so now nobody has to do all that stuff anymore and anybody who does is foolish indeed for it has nothing whatsoever to do with one's spiritual redemption nowadays... um, yes, I would be offended by that.

 

Because you'd be saying that our entire faith is irrelevant. :-(((

 

This is the sticky bit. I don't think it does make your faith irrelevant. One, Christians don't all believe the same thing, so it gets very complicated. Many Christians believe that believing in Christ as the savior is the only belief necessary to be saved. BUT, we are under other commandments-to be baptized, to fellowship with other believers, to take communion. Those things aren't irrelevant to the Christian faith.

 

I'm not saying they necessarily do, though there are Hebrew-Christian organizations that DO attempt to appeal to Jewish members ("believers") by promoting messianic seders, messianic bar mitzvahs, and other Jewish-tinted functions.

Hm. So, say someone was raised Jewish, but become Christians and then they belong to a Messianic-Jewish group. Are they being offensive? Isn't it their heritage too? I'm not sure I'm grasping this point, unless you mean it is offensive to proselytize through such a ceremony.

 

In any event, I think the very best thing Christians can do - someone else here mentioned this already - is to get to know Christianity. If your own faith isn't fulfilling, doesn't offer enough feasts and fasts and whatnot, then find Christians who ARE doing those things - live your own religion to its fullest.

 

LOL! Someone who is *really* Protestant probably would not be comfortable in a Catholic church just because they offer more celebrations. There are some pretty big differences (at least from the Protestant perspective).

Edited January 26, 2012 by Mrs Mungo

[Ester Maria]

I apologize for butting in to this thread. After reading the replies I realize how ignorant my question was and I feel really foolish now. I am sorry. I sincerely meant no harm. I know that I lack education and that I don't possess a great intellect either. I am so sorry for any negative feelings or pain that I may have caused with my stupid question. :( Please forgive me.

For the record, I did not see any problem with your questions, Ibby. :001_smile:

I think the best term to distinguish between the two faiths IMO is to say that Christianity (like Islam) is a "proselytizing" religion, where Judaism is not.

Thanks - that was the word I was searching for, but I slept so little in the last few days that it is a miracle that I am expressing myself even somewhat coherently. :tongue_smilie:

I cannot imagine being able to trace my roots all the way back for thousands of years the way you can. What a rich and amazing cultural heritage you have Ester Maria.

I cannot trace it that far. :001_smile:

 

But there are people who presumably can, who are descendants of some important rabbis whose genealogies are more or less well known, so if they manage to connect the pieces of the historical puzzle along the way, theoretically, they can trace their family chain into pre-diaspora times. Theoretically. I am not sure I would personally know anyone who can do that, but there have been urban legends of people who directly descend from some important medieval rabbi, of whom one can trace the genealogy to some earlier rabbi, for whom we know that he is a direct descendant from somebody Biblical (king David, for example), and for who can thus, by extension, reconstruct their personal history way back to Adam, or of people who can supposedly trace their family histories to some high priests in pre-diaspora times, etc. Obviously, things get very complicated the further you go into history and the more difficult it gets to separate what is legendary from what is historical; nonetheless, it is still quite impressive - compared to that, the extent to which I know about my family history is quite "lame" :lol:.

Have we covered what a Jewish homeschooling family calls it when they study their own religion?

 

When you call the kids to come and study, what do you yell out?

 

"Come on, kids! It's time to study ___________________!"

 

Would that blank ever be filled in with the word "Bible?"

 

Just wonderin'.

Hebrew and Judaic education typically comprises (whether fleshed out this way or grouped differently):

 

1. Lashon ("language" = Hebrew)

2. Tanach ("Old Testament"): sometimes with further subdivisions into a study of Chumash (Pentateuch) with Rashi separately from Neviim (Prophets) and Ktuvim (Writings)

3. Parasha ("Torah portion") - regardless of what is done in the general Tanach studies, this refers to being touch with the current weekly Torah portion as fleshed out throughout the year

4. Toshba (a slang abbreviation from 'Torah shebeal pe', meaning "Oral Torah", which pretty much boils down to Talmud, not to enter further distinctions); this is typically called Gemara

5. Halacha - a further study of the Jewish law organized by "topics" (e.g. detailed laws of prayer, of shabat, etc.)

6. Machshevet Yisrael ("Jewish though" = essentially Jewish philosophy)

7. Historiya (no need to translate, I guess = Jewish history)

 

Jewish day schools are not regular high schools with an "additional subject" of religious instruction of some kind: those are schools with DUAL curriculum. You have an entire SET of Judaic subjects (loosely organized the way I fleshed it out above), just like you have an entire SET of "secular" subjects (English, math, science, etc.). Imagine it like double majoring, LOL. :tongue_smilie:

 

Now, as to how is that reproduced in the homeschool setting, it differs very much from one person to another. We are on the lax end and we do only some of those above areas, while some other we bring up tied to other areas, but do not systematically study. I am afraid of elaborating because on this thread I probably do the least, LOL. :lol:

I would guess that the use of The Old Testament is also offensive?

It is not offensive per se, but it is a label which obviously has its historicity and use. If you refer to something as the "old" testament, there is an implication of the existence of the "new", and of the "old" being only a "part" of a totality whose integral parts are also some later texts.

 

Actually, even the word "Bible" is something you will rarely hear in the Jewish circles. In the Jewish jargon, it is either Tanach or Mikra.

[Jay3fer]

Enjoy the fishsticks! In Jewish households, that's a Thursday night dinner (easy to prepare and neither dairy nor meat, which use precious dishware that will be used for Sabbath prep).

 

Plus, dairy or fish on Thurs night heightens your enjoyment of meat the following night... (I try to do this as our "vegan night")

[milovany]

(Nor am I offended that, by Xtian theology, I am d@mned.)

 

This is not my belief as a Christian, nor the belief of the Christians I fellowship with.

[justamouse]

 

?? There are religious groups that many evangelicals perceive to be "cults" that practice Christian holidays. There are also atheists who take part in supposedly Christian holidays.

 

I was talking about the sacramental aspect, not just the holiday. When a Christian celebrates __(insert Jewish Holiday)__ they are actually trying to celebrate something sacramental. So, to a Christian, that would be like a cult co-opting communion, no?

[Mrs Mungo]

I was talking about the sacramental aspect, not just the holiday. When a Christian celebrates __(insert Jewish Holiday)__ they are actually trying to celebrate something sacramental. So, to a Christian, that would be like a cult co-opting communion, no?

 

I will say again, there are religious groups that many evangelicals perceive to be "cults" that practice Christian holidays and/or sacraments. I am not offended by this, I just think they have wrong ideas about religion. They think I have wrong ideas about religion.

[Ibbygirl]

For the record, I did not see any problem with your questions, Ibby. :001_smile:

 

 

Thank you. :blushing: You are very kind. :)

[YaelAldrich]

I will say again, there are religious groups that many evangelicals perceive to be "cults" that practice Christian holidays and/or sacraments. I am not offended by this, I just think they have wrong ideas about religion. They think I have wrong ideas about religion.

 

I have to go run to my holy kosher kitchen :lol: to make brinner (pancakes for those who wonder), but I think the core difference is that the cults are not the guys with the upper hand in theological battle against the underdogs. If the cults were mainstream/were the norm in society and the Christian holidays were being used to prove a point (I know you say that you've never seen them used this way but people in this thread both Christian and Jewish have), Christians would possibly feel differently. When you are in power you can afford to be magnanimous. When you are not, it is more of a threat. Especially if the people with the upper hand have had a history of making sure they had the upper hand...

 

Off to the pancakes!

Edited January 26, 2012 by YaelAldrich
oopsie.

[Mrs Mungo]

I have to go run to my holy kosher kitchen :lol: to make brinner (pancakes for those who wonder), but I think the core difference is that the cults are not the guys with the upper hand in theological battle against the underdogs. If the cults were mainstream/were the norm in society and the Christian holidays were being used to prove a point (I know you say that you've never seen them used this way but people in this thread both Christian and Jewish have), Christians would possibly feel differently. When you are in power you can afford to be magnanimous. When you are not, it is more of a threat. Especially if the people with the upper hand have had a history of making sure they had the upper hand...

 

Just to be clear, I am very understanding with the topic of cultural appropriation. It happens *all the time* to all sorts of minority groups. I listed a bunch earlier in the thread and wondered what people thought about those types of things.

 

How do you think these things relate to the topic of cultural appropriation?

 

I think a really good analogy to Native American religion would be the secular use of the sweat lodge. There were a lot of rules and practices regarding sweat lodge use. The widely publicized incident where secular sweat lodge use went really wrong and people died is a good example of why one shouldn't co-opt a practice like that, especially if you are going to ignore all traditional rules surrounding its use.

 

On the other hand, how about the secular practice of yoga? It is great exercise, but it is meant to be a religious practice. You can probably practice yoga for health, but if you start dabbling in the religious side or start wearing associated religious symbols, that is when I think you start treading dangerous ground.

 

Let's take...Bruce Lee. My dh was into martial arts for a long time, so I know a lot about Bruce Lee and his struggles. Bruce Lee started off studying Wing Chun. When other students found out that his mom was half white, they refused to train with him because the Chinese were generally against teaching martial arts to non-Chinese. Why? One can imagine for reasons very much like objections raised in this thread. Martial arts had associated religious practices. The popularity of "secular" martial arts today is partially a direct result of Bruce Lee's popularity and legend.

 

How about the Boy Scouts co-opting Native American practices/names?

 

How about the YMCA organization "Indian Princesses?"

 

How about random people getting mehndi for non-ceremonial purposes?

 

How about Gwen Stefani wearing a Bindi?

 

A book promoting non-existent made-up Native American practices that were really just a bunch of new age BS caused a giant fight on another board I was on.

[justamouse]

Just to be clear, I am very understanding with the topic of cultural appropriation. It happens *all the time* to all sorts of minority groups. I listed a bunch earlier in the thread and wondered what people thought about those types of things.

 

How do you think these things relate to the topic of cultural appropriation?

 

I don't think anyone thought that of you. I would hope not, at the least, especially if they've been around the boards.

 

I guess, what I was trying to say (not so very well) is that at least those other hypothetical groups are Christian, so there's kind of a pass? And from a Christian POV, we always assume we're a part of the Jewish tree, and from a previous post on this thread, they obviously don't feel the same way. We're our own tree. :001_smile: So it's like a group putting on 'communion' for the wee special snowflake god, and trying out the sacramental along with.

 

I don't know, there's never been much sacramental stuff in the non Catholic denominations I've been a part of. There's a bunch of it in the Catholic Church, so maybe there's just not much to co-opt in a non liturgical church? So though you get it because you're NA, a non liturgical Christian may not because there's really nothing to steal?

 

I totally get that I'm befuddled today, so I'm not making much sense. :001_smile: I'm just trying to clarify my thinking. Or lack of it. :D

[Mrs Mungo]

I don't think anyone thought that of you. I would hope not, at the least, especially if they've been around the boards.

 

I guess, what I was trying to say (not so very well) is that at least those other hypothetical groups are Christian, so there's kind of a pass? And from a Christian POV, we always assume we're a part of the Jewish tree, and from a previous post on this thread, they obviously don't feel the same way. We're our own tree. :001_smile: So it's like a group putting on 'communion' for the wee special snowflake god, and trying out the sacramental along with.

 

Ultimately, I guess there is going to be a divergence that Christians can't help. Christians *do* see Christ as a fulfillment of the law (which does not abolish the law). They *are* an offshoot of Judaism, as far as they are concerned. As far as Judaism is concerned, Christianity is a cult. So, I think they are at least equally offensive to one another. If that makes sense? :)

 

I don't know, there's never been much sacramental stuff in the non Catholic denominations I've been a part of. There's a bunch of it in the Catholic Church, so maybe there's just not much to co-opt in a non liturgical church? So though you get it because you're NA, a non liturgical Christian may not because there's really nothing to steal?

 

Maybe.

 

I totally get that I'm befuddled today, so I'm not making much sense. :001_smile: I'm just trying to clarify my thinking. Or lack of it. :D

 

I think you're making perfect sense. I'm just trying to puzzle out what I think about it. I'm a think-out-loud type.

[8circles]

Many Christians believe in Universalism-that all will be saved.

 

But, Christians can't really win here, ultimately.

 

 

 

This is the sticky bit. I don't think it does make your faith irrelevant. One, Christians don't all believe the same thing, so it gets very complicated. Many Christians believe that believing in Christ as the savior is the only belief necessary to be saved. BUT, we are under other commandments-to be baptized, to fellowship with other believers, to take communion. Those things aren't irrelevant to the Christian faith.

 

Hm. So, say someone was raised Jewish, but become Christians and then they belong to a Messianic-Jewish group. Are they being offensive? Isn't it their heritage too? I'm not sure I'm grasping this point, unless you mean it is offensive to proselytize through such a ceremony.

 

 

 

LOL! Someone who is *really* Protestant probably would not be comfortable in a Catholic church just because they offer more celebrations. There are some pretty big differences (at least from the Protestant perspective).

 

I've been following this conversation closely & appreciate your contributions, MM.

 

I'm definitely curious about the bolded. I wasn't raised Jewish, but I am Jewish, ethnically speaking. I am Christian (though not Messianic). I've often wondered about exploring & teaching my children about their Jewish heritage. Would that offend observant Jews?

[Rivka]

Have we covered what a Jewish homeschooling family calls it when they study their own religion?

When you call the kids to come and study, what do you yell out?

"Come on, kids! It's time to study ___________________!"

Would that blank ever be filled in with the word "Bible?"

 

Just wonderin'.

 

I've heard some Jewish homeschoolers call it "Judaics."

[TracyR]

She did no such thing. Your false characterizations are out of line and you should apologize for making them.

 

Bill

 

I don't think you read her original post. It was very bitter against Christians. I read it and reread it several times. She even admitted that sh

[YaelAldrich]

I've been following this conversation closely & appreciate your contributions, MM.

 

I'm definitely curious about the bolded. I wasn't raised Jewish, but I am Jewish, ethnically speaking. I am Christian (though not Messianic). I've often wondered about exploring & teaching my children about their Jewish heritage. Would that offend observant Jews?

 

You are ethnically Jewish in what way? You father is Jewish, you have a Jewish grandparent somewhere back there in time? It never can hurt anyone to learn about Judaism and I have met and had to my home people who had Jewish ancestors but were not Jewish themselves. As long as that person had clear boundaries (like they weren't out to take what they've learned to mish mosh into a Christian ceremony, were respectful of what is going on, etc), I know I'd have no problem with you and your family coming over and sharing Shabbat/Yom Tov (holiday) with us or taking one of the classes I have taught about basic Judaism. The last time I taught a class in Basic Judaism I had a minister in the class and he peppered me with questions and at the last class, he was bawling about how much he learned about Judaism and Jesus's roots and I was totally fine with it! I was glad he was learning it from a traditional source and I didn't sugarcoat anything I said because he was in the class.

 

Come on in the water's fine -- seriously though, if you need help finding someplace to explore Judaism, please PM me and I would be happy to help.

[Spy Car]

I don't think you read her original post. It was very bitter against Christians. I read it and reread it several times. She even admitted that sh

 

Instead of offering an apology (which would have been the right thing to do) you reassert false charges. The Moderator said to stop it, and that is a great idea.

 

Bill

[simka2]

Come on in the water's fine -- seriously though, if you need help finding someplace to explore Judaism, please PM me and I would be happy to help.

We have these great social groups here. You should think about starting a Judaism 101 group...*hint* *hint*;). I live in a rather rural location and drive an hr to the closest Eastern Orthodox church, but I would be very interested in learning the basics. Some of the ladies throw around words I know are very central to the way you converse about your faith and I get very lost. :D

[TracyR]

She did no such thing. Your false characterizations are out of line and you should apologize for making them.

 

Bill

 

Um , if she wants an apology I'll give it to her, but I don't need for you , Bill, to tell me who and when to apologize. The last I knew I was an adult ,and I was not out of line. If I misread this then fine. But I wasn't out of line by suggesting her post sounded bitter to me.

 

Not when you accuse and say Christians worship Jesus as a god. Jesus was the Son of God. But not a god (with a little g). When you say god with a small g you are referring to pagan gods. When referring to God you use a capital G because He has earned that, and I'm imagining that the poster of the post is well aware of that grammatical rule.

 

She may of had other good posts in this discusion, but this was bitter.

 

Christians do not corrupt Jewish traditions. Many of our traditions came from Jewish traditions. Especially the Catholic religion. We do not celebrate other Jewish holidays but Passover , we observe the Sabbath ( we have Mass on Saturdays and Sundays. Don't know of many or any other protestant churches practice but Catholics do) , and I've taught my daughters about Chanukah because we live in the politically correct world we live in. So either you want others to understand you or you don't. Can't have your cake and eat it too. Even if what that person knows is limited because they do not come from a Jewish background. Its better than not having them understand at all and be filled full of ignorance.

 

 

Just to understand how is it that Christian's corrupt Jewish holidays in the first place. I don't think I saw any examples at all of how this corruption is taking place. Please enlighten with some examples. I just see the word corrupt being slung around but no examples of how its being done.

If I sound bitter now, your right. I don't like being accused of false characterization when I was clearing making a statement of how the post came across to me when I read it.

 

This was a very good discussion up until now.

 

 

 

"I am a real live Jew(ess) -- I am even Orthodox so I celebrate all these holidays and a whole bunch y'all don't-- and I am totally confused by it all.

 

First of all, Chanukah??? Not even in the Bible (Jewish or Christian) people! Purim too. Cute little holidays but NOT "Biblical" at all. I guess you celebrate Chanukah because a big to-do is made about them here in America (to compensate for Xmas). Jesus never celebrated Chanukah or Purim.

 

Second, why don't you call them by their REAL names? It took me a minute to figure out what a Festival of Trumpets is -- we don't use trumpets for Rosh HaShana, we use a ram's horn shofar. If you are going to do OUR holidays, at least call them by their correct name and spend the $500 to get a real build it yourself sukkah .

 

Third, but most important, didn't your god (Jesus) say that Christians did not need to be ritually circumcised (like with a knife on the man parts at eight days) but rather be circumcised in their hearts and that there was no need for the old covenant, that the Christians have a NEW covenant, no the old one (from the Jews) re-done up? You have holidays (love the trees and glittery lights and chocolate bunnies!) , you have a religion, why do you have co-opt ours??!?!? The Jewish holidays have NOTHING to do with Jesus (except as a Jew he did the Biblical ones).

 

I am saying a lot of this in somewhat of a tongue-in-cheek manner but there is some seriousness attached to it too. If you like Jewish stuff, great, but be truthful and say it is cool to do other religion's holiday stuff don't co-opt it."

Edited January 27, 2012 by TracyR

[YaelAldrich]

I think it can be difficult to see where to draw the line.

 

Let's take...Bruce Lee. My dh was into martial arts for a long time, so I know a lot about Bruce Lee and his struggles. Bruce Lee started off studying Wing Chun. When other students found out that his mom was half white, they refused to train with him because the Chinese were generally against teaching martial arts to non-Chinese. Why? One can imagine for reasons very much like objections raised in this thread. Martial arts had associated religious practices. The popularity of "secular" martial arts today is partially a direct result of Bruce Lee's popularity and legend.

OK, if I knew the reason the Chinese martial artists didn't want to teach a 1/4 Caucasian person, I would be able to make a more informed decision. Is it simple racism (white people can't kick, so this cannot kick)? Not nice. Is it that he isn't part of their faith group? Understandable.

 

How about the Boy Scouts co-opting Native American practices/names? How about the YMCA organization "Indian Princesses?"

To me, while there might be some positive feelings for NA people/women/morals, I would probably think this one rankles NA and probably should be nixed.

 

How about random people getting mehndi for non-ceremonial purposes?

I know people who do this for cultural reasons, getting married, etc. I am not sure this falls into a touchy are like religion. I always wanted to do it but didn't because I don't know...

 

How about Gwen Stefani wearing a Bindi?

Is she a WASH (white Anglo Saxon Hindu)? I don't think she is (but once I stopped going to the gym my level of pop culture declined). Does it send South Asians into a tizzy, if yes, then she shouldn't, if not, who cares.

 

A book promoting non-existent made-up Native American practices that were really just a bunch of new age BS caused a giant fight on another board I was on.

Don't blame them. Basically I think that in this day and age we all can ask another group if it is OK to take their "stuff" for our own purposes. If they go bonkers perhaps there is too much baggage around it or that it is very special the group and it's only polite to let it go. There are so many other ways to dress, eat, live to make someone else have pain intentionally.

 

I don't know. It's a really difficult subject. I can see both sides to some extent.