Christians who observes Jewish holidays

[Guest]

I have never known a fellow observant Jew who was offended by *anyone* wanting to learn more about our heritage. ...and certainly not about someone of Jewish descent wanting to share some information about that piece of their heritage with their children.

 

...but learning about Jewish practice, and showing some of that to your children is entirely different from taking Jewish customs and holidays and trying to transform them into Xtian observances - does that distinction make sense?

 

It isn't the learning (please, come visit!!) or the questions... and we love having folks over to share our food, our simcha (joy), and our faith as we live it. It's the co-opting... the cultural appropriation that raises such discomfort.

 

What about Jewish people who practiced all these things their entire lives and then started to believe that Jesus is their Savior? Do they have to stop what they have been doing? I know there are a lot of people in this boat and they live the way Jesus did (celebrating Jewish traditions) and this carries on down the generations. Are you also offended at this?

 

ETA: Sorry, I didn't realize this was already asked.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Jinnah

[Mrs Mungo]

After all that I've said, I certainly don't want to deny anyone else the right to declare themselves a separate entity, but the idea, in this case, confuses me.

 

Do you really believe that each of those categories is a different religion? Not part of the same thing?

 

No, they are very different.

 

I, from my outside very limited perception, have trouble seeing it that way. I see different *flavors*, each with some slightly different ingredients, but all the same *kind* of thing, all fundamentally part of the same framework of belief.

 

Can you help me see what you are describing?

 

People who are Biblical literalists believe that I am ****ed for not taking it literally. They believe I am deceived by Satan and am probably going to hell. People who are LDS do not accept the Godhead mentioned earlier as a central tenant of Christianity, they do not accept the diety of Christ. IMO, these are fundamental differences that make them different religions, not part of the same framework.

 

I guess, at the heart of it, our difference of viewpoints lies in this: y'all see Xtianity (whether it is one tree or hundreds) as coming from Judaism, as your description of a 'cutting' from an 'original' tree illustrates, and I do not see Judaism as the *source* of Xtianity in that *direct* way.

 

Right. I am understanding that. Which, is why I think it sort of brings the discussion to an impasse.

 

Judaism is one paradigm for a relationship with G-d.

 

Xtianity is an *entirely* different one, one predicated on rejecting the Jewish paradigm.

 

Not from the Christian perspective.

 

Since our relationship predates yours, I can see that looking at our history with G-d might be of interest, but I guess I don't see how our ways of engaging in that relationship could illuminate your relationship any more than looking at the way any person of faith engages in a relationship with G-d.

 

But that's specifically because we are coming from different places. I can see why you feel that way, but I can also why some Christians feel otherwise.

 

Although *I* don't see our relationship the way your described it above, I can see how someone who *does* see it that way would have the kind of interest you describe.

 

Which, is all I am seeking to do, is getting a little better understanding on both sides.

 

...and, to get back to the original issue that started this fascinating conversation, I think all of us speaking here as Jews have been very clear that we welcome interest; we love to share - someone who wants to see our fruits need only show up and start talking to us... either here, if words will suffice, or in person... and they can witness our observances, taste our food, and see how we live our lives... what all this theory looks like when it meets the real world and is implemented by imperfect human beings.

 

...and I promise I won't stop and make you defend *why* you are interested! ...or query the theological underpinnings of that interest! :)

 

But. Oh, but. Having a Xtian seder is *not*, by any reasoning I can follow, looking at the fruits of the Jewish tree... it is taking our modern day customs and symbols using them to fit illustrate a Xtian paradigm. (see my marriage analogy posts for an attempt to illustrate the emotional discomfort of this)

 

Just for the sake of clarity, I have never attended a Christian Seder or really thought about it. But, reading through this thread, I can understand why some people are interested. The Seder isn't just a modern ceremony, it is an ancient one. The last supper of Christ was a Seder. That makes it part of the Christian Biblical heritage too. I'm sorry that this fact is distressing to you, but it is a fact, nonetheless.

 

And I don't see how using the trappings of our paradigm, completely divorced from their essence, can illuminate your understanding of either of our faiths.

 

I guess from my perspective they are doing it to illuminate their understanding of their own faith. Which, from their perspective stems from yours. I understand that you don't agree with that paradigm, but it seems unavoidable.

 

This part makes sense. (so much of what I've said to you has been disagreeing, I wanted to include an agreement too! ...you and I usually have more, at least on other topics!)

 

Very true!

 

I am generally much more interested in finding common ground than pointing out differences. But, I think this discussion has been fascinating and very illuminating. I think I understand both sides of the discussion better now than I did before. Thank you for sharing. :) :grouphug:

[milovany]

How is that reconcilable with the tenet I had understood to be central to Xtianity, that Jesus is *the* path to 'salvation'?

 

Or are does it hold that the crucifixion results in universal salvation? What role does that leave for Xtianity itself? I mean, why be Xtian then? ...or, perhaps?, does this tenet of universality mean that salvation is then not the central point? ...since it's already taken care of, so to speak?

 

[Milovany, I would love to hear your thoughts on this too!]

 

Eliana, I'm an Eastern Orthodox Christian, which we believe to be the original form of Christianity, straight from the time of Christ (I fully understand that the Roman Catholic church makes the same claim -- whichever it is, we all agree that there was just one unified church back then unlike what is seen in Christianity today.). It is not our thought that the life/death/resurrection of Christ provided universal salvation for all, rather that God is loving and merciful and that He's not willing that any should perish but that all would come to salvation*. We also believe He has provided the truest, most pure path to salvation within a group of people, the Church. But that does not mean we conversely believe that anyone outside this Church is not saved (or not on the path to salvation). We say it's not our knowledge to possess; it's God's.

 

So what is the point of the Church? Why Christianity at all? (I personally prefer "The Church" to "Christianity"). God has created the Church as the "Ark" of salvation. For us, this physical place is the unique gift the Trinitarian God has given us as the one where His people can be with Him and can learn His ways firsthand. It's where we can most safely traverse this life, and this is not just a spiritual thing but a very physical one as well. The Church is where we do specific things in our living with Him, the things He prescribed through the church (including the sacraments, the liturgical life, the feasts, the prayers, etc.); it's through these things that we enter into self-denial/ascetic struggle in order to see every ugly thing burnt out of our hearts.

 

*I wanted to comment that we see salvation not as going to heaven when we die; but as what I just described above -- union with Christ and a purified heart.

 

As for those not in the Ark? That is my loving and merciful God's to handle and I need to not judge where others are in their journey with Him. My very elderly grandmother passed away last February. She was not an Orthodox Christian. Do I believe she is d*mned? I cannot say. I do know that in her final years she asked for prayer and said she wanted to see and know God, after spending most of her life believing there was no such thing as eternity and God. She was/is on a journey, and God is merciful. That's what I know. I still pray for her. (In my former life as an evangelical Protestant, I would have said death is the end and she's in hell now -- she didn't "receive Christ" and so wasn't "born again." I do not believe after this manner of faith anymore).

 

I am sure I'm not answering the question adequately, but I tried.

 

Warmly,

Juliana

Edited January 27, 2012 by milovaný

[Guest]

...

The Messianic movement was *created* as a tool for trying to convert Jews.

 

I do understand that not all current congregations,etc share that... mission statement, but that piece is inherently deeply offensive.

 

For those Messianic organizations (and I don't think "Jewish" belongs on the label, most participants are not Jewish at all) which are not trying to lure in young Jews, it is really the same situation as Xtians making seders... these aren't *Jewish* organizations, and almost all the participants are not of Jewish extraction.

 

For the rare cases in which a Jew is participating in such things, would I be offended? No. I'd be sad.

 

 

 

...

 

I think those that are Messianic Jews would find that offensive. I know that in my dh's family line there were those that were Jewish and became believers in Jesus. My dh has family members that died in the holocaust. He is from a long line of Jews. Eventually, some became Christians and I don't feel that they should have had to give up their heritage (that they always were a part of) just because others disagree. I know that there are many out there that this is also true for. It wasn't made up or created to convert other Jews.

 

Also, from their point of view (and mine) there is nothing for you to be sad about. They are living their lives the way they believe they are supposed to. Just because you do not agree with it, doesn't make it wrong. I do not say this with a bad heart. I just hope you can see the other side.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Jinnah

[milovany]

Xtianity is an *entirely* different one, one predicated on rejecting the Jewish paradigm.

 

Not from the Christian perspective.

 

I have wanted to mention this, too, as it's been said more than once. From the perspective of the Church, our faith is not predicated on rejecting the Jewish paradigm (I do fathom, now, that that's how the Jewish people view it, and respect that). That is why the "Old Testament" is part of our Scriptures and why we see Judaism is part of our history. The apostles were Jewish men, and they didn't reject that Judaism; in fact our scriptures show that even after the Ascension of Christ, they were going to the temple for the prayers. But because of the fact these men now believed that Christ was the Messiah, their Judaism was "converted" (if you will) into a faith of which Christ became the foundation. We believe this happened by the hand of God through the Church.

 

I say that from the Church side of the picture, realizing that the Jewish side will not see that at all.

[simka2]

Eliana, I'm an Eastern Orthodox Christian, which we believe to be the original form of Christianity, straight from the time of Christ (I fully understand that the Roman Catholic church makes the same claim -- whichever it is, we all agree that there was just one unified church back then unlike what is seen in Christianity today.). It is not our thought that the life/death/resurrection of Christ provided universal salvation for all, rather that God is loving and merciful and that He's not willing that any should perish but that all would come to salvation*. We also believe He has provided the truest, most pure path to salvation within a group of people, the Church. But that does not mean we conversely believe that anyone outside this Church is not saved (or not on the path to salvation). We say it's not our knowledge to possess; it's God's.

 

So what is the point of the Church? Why Christianity at all? (I personally prefer "The Church" to "Christianity"). God has created the Church as the "Ark" of salvation. For us, this physical place is the unique gift the Trinitarian God has given us as the one where His people can be with Him and can learn His ways firsthand. It's where we can most safely traverse this life, and this is not just a spiritual thing but a very physical one as well. The Church is where we do specific things in our living with Him, the things He prescribed through the church (including the sacraments, the liturgical life, the feasts, the prayers, etc.); it's through these things that we enter into self-denial/ascetic struggle in order to see every ugly thing burnt out of our hearts.

 

*I wanted to comment that we see salvation not as going to heaven when we die; but as what I just described above -- union with Christ and a purified heart.

 

As for those not in the Ark? That is my loving and merciful God's to handle and I need to not judge where others are in their journey with Him. My very elderly grandmother passed away last February. She was not an Orthodox Christian. Do I believe she is d*mned? I cannot say. I do know that in her final years she asked for prayer and said she wanted to see and know God, after spending most of her life believing there was no such thing as eternity and God. She was/is on a journey, and God is merciful. That's what I know. I still pray for her. (In my former life as an evangelical Protestant, I would have said death is the end and she's in hell now -- she didn't "receive Christ" and so wasn't "born again." I do not believe after this manner of faith anymore).

 

I am sure I'm not answering the question adequately, but I tried.

 

Warmly,

Juliana

 

I am going to piggy back this just a bit with a couple things. I think the ideas of ****ation and Hell are rather different in EO. To my understanding Hell is not a place of eternal punishment, as much as a place of self removal and/or experiencing God (as uncreated light) when one does not want to. Even then I appreciate that EO doesn't claim to have the ultimate final knowledge on how this all plays out.

 

So, EO cannot say that someone is ****ed to Hell.

 

This is one of the reasons I do like to learn about Judaism. When Jesus spoke of Gehana (sp?) As a Jew, what was his concept?;)

 

Also, the Trinity. EO talks about only being able to know God according to His energies. These are parts of Himself that He has chosen to reveal, but not the whole. This is contrasted with His essence. He is unknowable in His essence, which is the totality, the whole, the unified One.

 

 

Another EO person can probably explain this better. :001_smile:

Edited January 27, 2012 by simka2

[Guest]

I have another question. Earlier someone said their relative was of Jewish decent (but a Christian). Someone else asked how (if it was their father that was Jewish)? I have always heard it was determined by the mother (whether or not she was Jewish). Is that not the case?

 

Also, what if there were two Jewish siblings that married non-Jewish people and both had children. Aren't both sets of children Jewish? According to the way some decide this, would it make one couple's children Jewish and the other couple's children not Jewish? How does this make sense? I know it's a little off topic, but I've always wondered this and it was referred to earlier.

[theYoungerMrsWarde]

The church I grew up in and the majority of my family still belong to kept the Old Testament holy days. I haven't read any of the other posts, so I'm not sure it that's what you're looking for. They believe (I left to go to a mainstream Christian church when I turned 18) that Jesus just added to the Old Testament, instead of doing away with it. They also keep the OT food laws, but not the added on kosher restrictions. They also keep the Friday sundown to Saturday sundown Sabbath, but again, not the added Jewish restrictions (ie. they still use toilet paper on the Sabbath instead of tissues, they still cook, etc.)

 

If you want more information you can Google United Church of God (an off shoot of the World Wide Church of God, if you've ever heard of Herbert W. Armstrong, the Good News magazine, or the World Tomorrow radio program (I think that was the name of it...))

 

I disagree with a lot of what they teach, so I am by no means promoting this church. I am merely providing information.

[Mrs Mungo]

Eliana,

 

I think I get what you are saying here. And no, the fact that many people think I'm wrong about my religion is not offensive to me.

 

But, then we get to this really sticky bit.

 

What is cultural appropriation and what is Christians referring to their own *religious* heritage? That becomes almost impossible to sort out, I'm afraid. Again, some of these ceremonies *do* have significance to Christians, even if it isn't the same significance that it has to you. I can *truly* understand how that feels like cultural appropriation to you. And I can understand how those ceremonies feel like touchstones to some Christians.

 

I can understand both sides of that coin now. I don't think I *really* understood either side before.

 

This is one of the reasons I do like to learn about Judaism. When Jesus spoke of Gehana (sp?) As a Jew, what was his concept?;)

 

Right, these are the sorts of reasons that Christians learn about Judaism, because those are the concepts one deals with when one looks at the words of Jesus Christ. I think it's a little unfair to call it cultural appropriation.

 

It's as if there were some Roman colony who had been stuck in time and were now mad about the ceremony in Venice where they make offerings to Neptune. It's part of the cultural heritage of Venice, whether or not they have the same understanding of such a ceremony.

[elegantlion]

I am enjoying this conversation immensely. I have nothing of value to add, but a question.

 

I like the tree analogy. I am a christian, who sees christianity as a lot of trees. I see little unity in christianity as a whole.

 

I think what I see in the Jewish faith is an united faith, whether the individuals are in practice or not. I'm sensing that in this thread. Would that be a correct assumption?

 

If so, that may be what is enticing by looking at Judaism from the outside perspective. We don't practice any feasts, and I find the he said/she said bickering between christian denominations draining to my faith.

[justamouse]

This is what I don't understand. The apostles did not cease to be Jewish. This division didn't really exist until there were so many gentiles involved.

 

I think I got that better before than I do now. I now believe the problem is that there is a lot of ignorance on both sides, and it cannot be reconciled. I guess it makes me equally sad. :(

 

I'm having a hard time understanding it, too, but at least now I see it, and I agree, it is sad.

 

To the point that Ester made that Judaism is at once ancient and evolving-and in a sense, Christianity is too, we, as Christians need Judaism not as a root of our Christianity, but as a history lesson for context. I think that perhaps in that respect, there's a bridge we could cross. Because we don't know the history, we don't know the context, we don't know what so much of the New Testament meant and why (I mean yes, we do, but it lacks context?). Simka's Gehana example being exactly what I mean.

 

I have to admit, that I don't have much of a problem with any of this anymore, because becoming Catholic has given me the context I've missed. But I'm still learning it, every mass. And it will take me the rest of my life to learn, but that's the beauty of the liturgical year, I keep walking the old paths and learn more each year.

Edited January 27, 2012 by justamouse

[ElizaG]

Okay, this makes sense to me! :D You are right, Christians would not gain anything (in regards to their own faith) by a modern understanding of Judaism.

I'm not sure I'd put it to that extreme -- to me, they would surely gain something -- but it would also lead to a lot of confusion. In our family, modern Judaism is something we learn about as a historical and contemporary "world religion," and as a cultural heritage to which some of our friends belong. In this context, I would certainly defer to the opinions of Jewish people as to what their religion is about, how they interpret Scripture, etc.

 

When it comes to getting a deeper understanding of our own faith -- e.g., the imagery of Sukkot that's found in the Gospels -- we would look to Christian sources, and to historians or Biblical scholars who specialize in the ancient world. There has been a lot of water under the bridge in the last 2000 years.

 

BTW, this is a really interesting book about how Jews and Christians influenced each other's beliefs and practices in the Middle Ages. I can't vouch for everything the author says (it is just a history book, after all), but even if only partly true, it has been eye-opening to me.

 

Anyway, for those Jewish people who are offended by the "Biblical feasts" thing, your best course of action might be to suggest to those Christian groups that they do some research and try to re-enact the ancient celebrations in an authentic way. That way, it might seem less personal to you. Or else (which seems more likely) they might get so confused that they give up on the whole thing. :auto: :auto: :auto:

[Mrs Mungo]

I think so too, at least for that piece of it.

 

...but a constructive impasse. I think it useful to realize that we each see the relationship so differently.

 

...and I find it enormously significant the difference between the metaphors you and simka are using and the idea that Judaism really only existed as a precursor to Xtianity, not a living paradigm in its own right.

 

 

 

Okay. I am sitting here staring at the screen in utter bafflement.

 

I hadn't realized that perception was not a shared one.

 

Wow.

 

Okay.

 

Let's step back for a minute and explore this.

 

The idea that our Covenant could be "fulfilled" is, intrinsically, a rejection of the Jewish paradigm.

 

The very idea of a tri-partate deity is a rejection of the Jewish paradigm.

 

As is the concept of a divine messiah. (We use the same word 'messiah', but have such different meanings... different job descriptions.)

 

...and that's just the first few off the top of my head.

 

But you don't see it that way?

 

Explain. ...please.

 

There have been entire books written on this. I'm not sure I can explain in this context. I'm not sure where to begin. :confused:

 

I don't see that...at all.

 

As I tried articulate upthread, the essence of Pesach, and the seder, is about the Jewish people's relationship with G-d.

 

That the first Xtians were Jewish and participated in seders doesn't make seders Xtian.

 

And current day Jewish seders are, since the Beis HaMikdash has been destroyed, very different than what 2nd Temple period Jews would have been doing.

 

*that* observance, was centered around the Beis HaMikdash and the observances there...

 

 

Let me try with a different ceremony, maybe? Take the act of Holy Communion. I'm going to speak very broadly here. Understand, there are a lot of different sects with very different beliefs about this act and what it means. Some Christians believe that transubstantiation takes place. The bread because the flesh of Christ, the wine becomes the blood of Christ. Some Christians believe in the spiritual presence of Christ in the bread and wine. Some Christians believe that we do this as an act of remembrance.

 

So, I think...that it probably makes the most sense that the people *I* have seen hold Seders and things belong to that last category. Remembering and having ceremonies as touchstones makes sense to them within their framework. Ultimately, I think that is what it is for most of them. For you, it feels different, I get that. Honestly, neither side really made much sense to me before now, so I really appreciate the greater understanding that I have.

 

I'm not sure I'd put it to that extreme -- to me, they would surely gain something -- but it would also lead to a lot of confusion. In our family, modern Judaism is something we learn about as a historical and contemporary "world religion," and as a cultural heritage to which some of our friends belong. In this context, I would certainly defer to the opinions of Jewish people as to what their religion is about, how they interpret Scripture, etc.

 

And I agree that this is how we view it in my family.

 

Anyway, for those Jewish people who are offended by the "Biblical feasts" thing, your best course of action might be to suggest to those Christian groups that they do some research and try to re-enact the ancient celebrations in an authentic way. That way, it might seem less personal to you. Or else (which seems more likely) they might get so confused that they give up on the whole thing.

 

And that seems like a good idea. But, then a lot of people (like in the video earlier) muddy the waters by insisting that the basic ceremony has remained unchanged for all of this time.

[susankenny]

I'm also enjoying this thread! Very much! It can be confusing though when I read here that Jewish holidays are really irrelevant to my faith, yet there is a ton of information that says they should be observed because they are huge in truly understanding my Christian faith. Makes my head hurt a little bit, lol. I appreciate those that are jewish taking the time to really follow this thread and respond.

 

Susan

[milovany]

Thank you, Juliana.

 

I've cut the rest of your beautiful description, but I appreciated it all! You've helped me envision your theological perspective much better.

 

I have so many questions, responses, etc, but I think those would all belong in a different thread, one specifically about "salvation"... from a variety of faith's viewpoints.

 

It is funny that the more I learn, the more aware I am of how very little I know!

 

You're welcome, Eliana. I think it's safe to also say that what I wrote is not something that can be applied to all of Christianity, but is specific to the Orthodox Church (not that other congregations might not also believe some or all of it; I just can't speak for them).

 

Thank you for your kind and lovely words in this thread. I have learned something (quite a few somethings) that are beneficial to my understanding. I had already rejected the idea of Christians celebrating the Jewish feasts, but now I have a better understanding of why (not only because of what I believe, but because of how the Jewish people see it, too).

[Parrothead]

How is that reconcilable with the tenet I had understood to be central to Xtianity, that Jesus is *the* path to 'salvation'?

 

.

 

Eliana, I'm an Eastern Orthodox Christian, which we believe to be the original form of Christianity, straight from the time of Christ (I fully understand that the Roman Catholic church makes the same claim -- whichever it is, we all agree that there was just one unified church back then unlike what is seen in Christianity today.). It is not our thought that the life/death/resurrection of Christ provided universal salvation for all, rather that God is loving and merciful and that He's not willing that any should perish but that all would come to salvation*. We also believe He has provided the truest, most pure path to salvation within a group of people, the Church. But that does not mean we conversely believe that anyone outside this Church is not saved (or not on the path to salvation). We say it's not our knowledge to possess; it's God's.

 

So what is the point of the Church? Why Christianity at all? (I personally prefer "The Church" to "Christianity"). God has created the Church as the "Ark" of salvation. For us, this physical place is the unique gift the Trinitarian God has given us as the one where His people can be with Him and can learn His ways firsthand. It's where we can most safely traverse this life, and this is not just a spiritual thing but a very physical one as well. The Church is where we do specific things in our living with Him, the things He prescribed through the church (including the sacraments, the liturgical life, the feasts, the prayers, etc.); it's through these things that we enter into self-denial/ascetic struggle in order to see every ugly thing burnt out of our hearts.

 

*I wanted to comment that we see salvation not as going to heaven when we die; but as what I just described above -- union with Christ and a purified heart.

 

As for those not in the Ark? That is my loving and merciful God's to handle and I need to not judge where others are in their journey with Him. My very elderly grandmother passed away last February. She was not an Orthodox Christian. Do I believe she is d*mned? I cannot say. I do know that in her final years she asked for prayer and said she wanted to see and know God, after spending most of her life believing there was no such thing as eternity and God. She was/is on a journey, and God is merciful. That's what I know. I still pray for her. (In my former life as an evangelical Protestant, I would have said death is the end and she's in hell now -- she didn't "receive Christ" and so wasn't "born again." I do not believe after this manner of faith anymore).

 

I am sure I'm not answering the question adequately, but I tried.

 

Warmly,

Juliana

I can't really add much to Milovany's answer. The Catholic answer would be pretty identical. This question came up in school this week so I have it fresh in my mind. I've almost fallen asleep getting to the end of this thread. So instead of trying to produce coherent thought to follow up the RCC perspective I'm going with :iagree:. What Milovany said.

 

Keep in mind though there are Christian denominations that do put those kinds of limits on God

[Karis]

Karis, you took my quote out of context and that in itself is annoying. Your desire that I (the Jews) get over the wounds we have suffered is far sight more than that. Ever heard of the aphorism, " Hurt me once, shame on me; hurt me twice, shame on you"? Well, what if I am hurt for about 2000 years over and over most of the time in the name of your G-d? Then what? Jews may be many things, but by G-d we aren't stupid.

 

The problem of Christian co-opting Jewish holidays (because that what Bibical holidays are -- do you sacrifice 70 oxen on Pentacost? Roast and eat a lamb and daub blood on your doorposts for Passover? Go to the Temple on Yom Kippur to watch the High Priest tie a red string on one goat and a white one on another -- didn't think so) isn't a problem for YOU since you believe your god and your religion have supplanted the Jewish one.

 

G-d said that the Jews were never to be a regular people and he makes sure that we remember that throughout history -- Holocaust, pogroms, all of European middle age history, pretty much the whole of the rise of Islam, Rome, Greece, Babylonia, Egypt.;) So not being a big nation or being able to assimilate away into nothingness doesn't surprise me. But I THINK I can retain the right to remember, thankyouverymuchifyoudon'tmind.

 

Personally, as an Orthodox Jew, I rarely think about what Christians do in their lives as I have lots of ritual obligations to fulfill every day in order for me to be right with G-d not to mention my religion is a vibrant and alive one, not one focused on the harm that has been done to us (that is what I call "Persecution" Judaism which many assimilated Jews practice in America today). But when asked I give my opinion. If you don't like it, move on and all will be happiness and roses.

 

Take care and enjoy that next "Bibical Holy Day"!

 

I just skimmed this. But I was not attacking you.

 

And the saying where I come from and which makes more sense TO ME is

 

"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

 

I was trying to say that the heart of Humanity has to heal because the hurt - hurts. Hearing your passion/ sadness/ anger through your posts about the injustices shows this will always be an open wound. There are many who wish that it were not so. No one can forget - nor is anyone asking you to.

But your suffering is not the only suffering. Various people groups have been/ are being mistreated.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Karis

[ElizaG]

I can't really add much to Milovany's answer. The Catholic answer would be pretty identical. This question came up in school this week so I have it fresh in my mind. I've almost fallen asleep getting to the end of this thread. So instead of trying to produce coherent thought to follow up the RCC perspective I'm going with :iagree:.

For those who would like to dig a bit deeper, Pope Benedict addressed this in his encyclical, Dominus Iesus. [ETA: sorry, error on my part... it wasn't an encyclical, but a Vatican declaration, which he issued in the office he held before he became pope.] Wikipedia has a summary.

 

To put it another way: we believe that there are only Catholics in heaven. But during their life on earth, these Catholics might have self-identified as Baptist, Jewish, Muslim, atheist, etc.

 

This might come across as too lax to some, and too exclusionary to others. Oh well, we're used to that.

Edited January 28, 2012 by Eleanor

[justamouse]

For those who would like to dig a bit deeper, Pope Benedict addressed this in his encyclical, Dominus Iesus. Wikipedia has a summary.

 

To put it another way: we believe that there are only Catholics in heaven. But during their life on earth, these Catholics might have self-identified as Baptist, Jewish, Muslim, atheist, etc.

 

This might come across as too lax to some, and too exclusionary to others. Oh well, we're used to that.

 

Eleanor, you are very black and white. There is grace.

 

From your own link.

 

On the other hand, it affirms that people who are not explicitly part of the Catholic Church can nevertheless attain salvation. This is because Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus is a tautology, so that it includes rather than it excludes, since the Catholic Church is universal by nature and its boundaries are not pre-determined.

[ElizaG]

Eleanor, you are very black and white. There is grace.

Not sure how you interpreted my post, but I think we're saying the same thing. :confused: How about this:

 

We believe that everyone who's on the path to heaven is being saved through Jesus, and belongs to the Catholic Church, whether they know it or not.

 

Does that clarify what I was saying? (I hope so, because I have to get off the computer now. The children are eerily silent... not a good thing!)

Edited January 27, 2012 by Eleanor

[justamouse]

Not sure how you interpreted my post, but I think we're saying the same thing. :confused: How about this:

 

We believe that everyone who's on the path to heaven is being saved through Jesus, and belongs to the Catholic Church, whether they know it or not.

 

Does that clarify what I was saying? (I hope so, because I have to get off the computer now. The children are eerily silent... not a good thing!)

 

That sounds much better. ;)

[elegantlion]

I'm not sure how to answer that fairly, and concisely.

 

We have, as a people, a very strong sense of national (so to speak) unity. The metaphor often used is that of a body - we are all part of the body of Am Yisrael. (and there are some fascinating extensions of this essential halachic concept).

 

The values of achdus, of unity, of ahavas Yisrael, love for our fellow Jew are core Jewish principles and have a significance and emotional weight I can't begin to describe.

 

But the Gemara (Talmud) itself is, among many other things, a collection of disputes. We discuss things endlessly and passionately.

 

We have some enormous differences on a variety of topics - the differences are often in how one practices, but there are serious theological differences as well.... and they aren't always expressed with the awareness of achdus and ahavas Yisrael they should be. ...and it is heart breaking at times.

 

Here's an overview I wrote a while back - it oversimplifies dramatically, but it might give you a sense of our internal divisions:

 

 

[Here's a quote I made in another thread trying to very briefly describe categories of American Judaism:

 

Thank you, that is helpful.

[thowell]

Not sure how you interpreted my post, but I think we're saying the same thing. :confused: How about this:

 

We believe that everyone who's on the path to heaven is being saved through Jesus, and belongs to the Catholic Church, whether they know it or not.

 

Does that clarify what I was saying? (I hope so, because I have to get off the computer now. The children are eerily silent... not a good thing!)

 

I think I understand you are saying that this is how you believe, correct? I ask because we are Fundamental Baptist and this is not how we believe. The part about everyone being from the Catholic church anyway.

[ElizaG]

I think I understand you are saying that this is how you believe, correct? I ask because we are Fundamental Baptist and this is not how we believe. The part about everyone being from the Catholic church anyway.

Yes, I meant that it's what Catholics believe. :) (I started out by following up on Parrothead's post, which stated that explicitly, but it got lost somewhere along the way.)

[thowell]

Yes, I meant that it's what Catholics believe. :) (I started out by following up on Parrothead's post, which stated that explicitly, but it got lost somewhere along the way.)

 

got it. :001_smile:

[Ibbygirl]

Oh my! I have finally read through to the end of this thread and my head is positively swimming! What an amazing discussion this is.

 

Eliana, would it be okay if I asked you a few questions? I am learning so much from reading your posts and I greatly appreciate the understanding I am gaining from your perspective. I really appreciate this dialogue greatly as I have no one where I live that I can discuss these things with. :)

 

I realize that it is Shabbos for you, (may I wish you Shabbat Shalom? ) so please feel free to answer at your leisure. :)

 

Please also forgive me if my question comes off as dumb, but after reading this thread I'm not sure of anything anymore and don't want to assume anything either.

 

My first question then is.. What is the Jewish belief about Messiah?

 

My understanding (from the Christian POV) has been that one of the main differences between Judaism and Christianity is that Christians believed that Jesus Christ was Messiah and the Jews did not and were still waiting for their Messiah to come.

 

But because Christians believed also in the Old Testament that that is why so many Christians see Judaism as the roots to their religion but that our two faiths parted ways over the issue of Messiah, but now after reading your posts I realize that the Christian paradigm and the Jewish one are very different, more so than I ever realized. I would love to hear your thoughts on the Jewish view of Messiah and his role. :)

 

Also, you mentioned the distinction between Biblical Judaism and Rabbinic Judaism, I wanted to know if you could maybe expand more on that topic? (I am thoroughly enjoying your posts and learning so much! I want to learn more. :) ) My second question is hypothetical, but if the Holy Temple were rebuilt and the Jews could worship God as they did in the past would they?

 

Please forgive me if my questions cause any offense or step on any toes. It is not my intention I assure you. I respect you and your religion greatly and hope that I do not cause any offense with my questions. I am just merely trying to understand and learn more about you and what you believe and about your religion. :grouphug:

 

My last question is just really curiosity. I was wondering why you wrote Christian as Xtian?? I'm not offended by it, just merely curious since I noticed it in all of your posts.

 

I thank you kindly for your consideration and I look forward to your replies. I hope that you have a wonderful Shabbos with your family. :)

 

Blessings to you!

 

Jennifer

Edited January 27, 2012 by Ibbygirl

[laughing lioness]

I am a real live Jew(ess) -- I am even Orthodox so I celebrate all these holidays and a whole bunch y'all don't-- and I am totally confused by it all.:001_huh:

 

First of all, Chanukah??? Not even in the Bible (Jewish or Christian) people! Purim too. Cute little holidays but NOT "Biblical" at all. I guess you celebrate Chanukah because a big to-do is made about them here in America (to compensate for Xmas). Jesus never celebrated Chanukah or Purim.

 

Second, why don't you call them by their REAL names? It took me a minute to figure out what a Festival of Trumpets is -- we don't use trumpets for Rosh HaShana, we use a ram's horn shofar. If you are going to do OUR holidays, at least call them by their correct name and spend the $500 to get a real build it yourself sukkah :001_smile: .

 

Third, but most important, didn't your god (Jesus) say that Christians did not need to be ritually circumcised (like with a knife on the man parts at eight days) but rather be circumcised in their hearts and that there was no need for the old covenant, that the Christians have a NEW covenant, no the old one (from the Jews) re-done up? You have holidays (love the trees and glittery lights and chocolate bunnies!) , you have a religion, why do you have co-opt ours??!?!? The Jewish holidays have NOTHING to do with Jesus (except as a Jew he did the Biblical ones).

 

I am saying a lot of this in somewhat of a tongue-in-cheek manner but there is some seriousness attached to it too. If you like Jewish stuff, great, but be truthful and say it is cool to do other religion's holiday stuff don't co-opt it.

 

Hi Jael, Smiling Smilodon here (dh to laughing lioness). You have a cool first name, though I may pass on the milk if I am ever invited to your home (step away from the hammer and keep your hands where I can see them!). A real live Orthodox Jewess as you say. You are a rarity in my parts.

 

Jesus/Yeshua did in fact celebrate Chanukah (John 10:22; where it is call the “Dedication”). Now, as I see it, Chanukah is about liberty in worshiping the Holiest One with deepest integrity. It’s about being committed, not popular. It is about restoration/coming of the Light (which is, in fact, what Christmas is, though the rhetoric and calendar are confusing, hence the lights, works well in December above the 40th parallel). It’s about the Jewish contribution to the freedom of worship and conscience. That is what I see in the Maccabees. What is not to celebrate here? Admittedly it is a bit tough for those of us with no Jewish background to connect with this, but we do the best we can (feel free to help). We have no evidence whether Jesus/Yeshua celebrated Purim. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. However, Jesus/Yeshua is very Jewish and loved(s) Judah (Mat 15:24), why would He not celebrate Jewish liberation?

 

RE Rosh HaShana: Ummm, in Leviticus (23; Numbers 29) the focus is on trumpets (Teruach actually means "blowing," but I don’t think that works well in English do you?). Yes we have confusing calendar issues here. Again. I, frankly, find the whole thing a mess (OK, if the month starts at the sliver of the full moon, that would put Shabbat, or Saturday, on …, when was it you were going to Schul? OK, that was a cheap shot, sorry). For now, we will simply go with what we see written (Hmmm, “It is written ...” where have I heard that before, where could it be, where could it be?). We are not trying to be totally correct, just faithful.

 

Re Sukkoth, if memory serves, Leviticus (23) specifies palm branches (=thatch), willow branches (=wattle), boughs of leafy trees (=structure) and leaves of leafy trees (=décor &/or wind screen for the wattle) (Nehemiah changed things, but I figure his troops didn’t hold the river at the time). Of course I’m ignorant, but this looks like a temporary shelter using what you have available. PVC is OK, we are not legalistic, it’s probably more available and less expensive in the ‘burbs than branches anyway. I just go with 2x4s and plastic (gives us that harried, temporary shelter look, which as I read the text, is the point).

 

Now: the Covenant. Your facts are off re the teaching, but that’s OK. Paul is confusing in the English, particularly if you forget that he is a rabbi dealing with gentiles. This is where things get fun and interesting… and goes to the heart (Luvav) of the matter. Covenant is truly a big deal. Problem is my bride set me at a two paragraph limit and I am over that. Something about conventions of the board. I do truly appreciate the questions Jael. It is a rare privilege to engage in real discussion with one of those to whom the scripture belong (Rom 3:2). Shall I continue?

Edited January 27, 2012 by laughing lioness

[Parrothead]

Yes, I meant that it's what Catholics believe. :) (I started out by following up on Parrothead's post, which stated that explicitly, but it got lost somewhere along the way.)

 

got it. :001_smile:

Hmm...

 

I don't want to hijack this thread. It is too important. But what Eleanor said has just enough truth to be true, yet isn't the entire belief. And as a simplistic explanation it sounds offensive and egotistical. If anyone wants to discuss it further I'm sure any number of us would welcome the discussion either in a separate thread of in the Crossing the Tiber social group.

[ElizaG]

But what Eleanor said has just enough truth to be true, yet isn't the entire belief.

Same goes for what Parrothead said previously ;). That's why I mentioned the pope's encyclical [ETA correction: not an encyclical, but a Vatican declaration, which he issued in the office he held before he became pope], which presents it in much more depth. (Though IIRC, it was also described as "egotistical and offensive" by some in the media. :tongue_smilie:)

 

There are a lot of ways to express our beliefs, and I think it's necessary to have clarity along with the warm fuzzies. If we just assume that others are on the same page as us, we can end up with some huge and complicated misunderstandings. Witness this thread. I was surprised that Eliana was astonished that Mrs. Mungo disagreed with what Eliana thought Christians thought about Judaism.

 

Makes me glad I had that second cup of coffee. ;)

Edited January 28, 2012 by Eleanor

[Ibbygirl]

I was surprised that Eliana was astonished that Mrs. Mungo disagreed with what Eliana thought Christians thought about Judaism.

 

 

:lol::lol::lol: Oh my! That sentence is making me dizzy. I think I need a coffee too! :p

[Spy Car]

I just skimmed this. But I was not attacking you.

 

And the saying where I come from and which makes more sense TO ME is

 

"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

 

I was trying to say that the heart of Humanity has to heal because the hurt - hurts. Hearing your passion/ sadness/ anger through your posts about the injustices shows this will always be an open wound. There are many who wish that it were not so. No one can forget - nor is anyone asking you to.

But your suffering is not the only suffering. Various people groups have been/ are being mistreated.

 

Karis, I believe Yael's point is that Jews in German prior to the rise of Nazism were about as integrated into the fabric of another society as anytime in their history. Only current conditions in the United States might compare.

 

Jews in Germany (wrongly, as it turned out) thought they were secure in their position as "Germans." Germany was a nation at the apex of European culture and Jews were involved all levels of that society.

 

One needs to understand that there remains a "if it could happen in Germany, it could happen anywhere" mentality. I find that a pretty easy position with which to empathize.

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

 

My first question then is.. What is the Jewish belief about Messiah?

 

My understanding (from the Christian POV) has been that one of the main differences between Judaism and Christianity is that Christians believed that Jesus Christ was Messiah and the Jews did not and were still waiting for their Messiah to come.

 

 

One thing to remember is that the Jewish conception of a Moshiach/Messiah does not include the idea that that the "anointed one" will (or could) be a divine being, they would not be a "Son of God" (in any way different than other mortals are) and not a "part" of a Triune god-head. God, from the Jewish perspective, is ONE.

 

The Moshiach the Jews await will be a great temporal leader, but not God and not divine being. Just a great human leader.

 

So the whole idea is a very different conception than the Christian one.

 

Bill (who sends you his warmest regards :001_smile:)

[Ibbygirl]

One thing to remember is that the Jewish conception of a Moshiach/Messiah does not include the idea that that the "anointed one" will (or could) be a divine being, they would not be a "Son of God" (in any way different than other mortals are) and not a "part" of a Triune god-head. God, from the Jewish perspective, is ONE.

 

The Moshiach the Jews await will be a great temporal leader, but not God and not divine being. Just a great human leader.

 

So the whole idea is a very different conception than the Christian one.

 

Bill (who sends you his warmest regards :001_smile:)

 

:) Thank you Bill. That is very helpful. :) This thread has been so eye opening and educational for me. :)

 

Jennifer (who accepts your warmest regards warmly and promises to try to not be so sensitive today. ;) :p )

[Spy Car]

:) Thank you Bill. That is very helpful. :) This thread has been so eye opening and educational for me. :)

 

Jennifer (who accepts your warmest regards warmly and promises to try to not be so sensitive today. ;) :p )

 

I just got some good news, so I can finally relax a little.

 

Bill (who has been in a stressful family situation)

[Parrothead]

I just got some good news, so I can finally relax a little.

 

Bill (who has been in a stressful family situation)

I hope it all works out for you and yours. :grouphug:

[Ester Maria]

I think I am able to verbalize more clearly my thoughts on some of the issues frequently brought up in this thread (and perhaps a few earlier threads that went into that direction) regarding the relationship between Judaism and Christianity.

 

The problem is not, or not only, that Christianity, from a conceptual perspective, claims things that Judaism does not.

The fundamental problem is that Christianity cancels Torah and commandments *in the name of Judaism*. On a logical level, from a Christian perspective, Christianity *is* Judaism - Christianity as an idea is a natural, organic continuation of Judaism as an idea. Early Christians did not attempt to start a new religion - from their perspective, as well as from the perspective of their successors, they were a natural development of that previous idea. What is "cancellation" and "break off" from the Jewish perspective is organic growth from the Christian perspective. I have encountered this attitude a LOT in my youth because I grew up in a Catholic milieu and this is probably where Eliana and I part in experience, because I am not surprised at all at the idea that Christians do not feel as though they rejected Judaism, even if that is exactly what it looks like from our side of the fence. Speaking strictly conceptually, they think they *are* "Judaism", a natural development of that same idea, rather than a "new thing", with rabbinical post-diaspora Judaism being an anachronism in time which did not "update" properly.

 

And THAT is what is the ultimate offense of Christianity, from the Jewish perspective - Christianity is a movement within a circle of ethnic Jews, but completely inconsistent with the matrix of Judaism. The question at hand is, is everything that an ethnic Jew does automatically "Judaism" and do ideas presented by ethnic Jews as "Judaism" necessarily hold that link?

 

And here is where we part. From our side of the fence, NO. Judaism is a very complex, albeit dynamic matrix, as we have tried to explain on this thread. It has its inner logic and inner structure. Ideas which are not compatible with it are simply not Judaism, even if promoted by and originated amongst ethnic Jews. Anything that Jews do in the name of their Jewishness is certainly an expression of yehudiyutam - their *Jewishness* - but it says nothing about yahadutam - their *Judaism*, because Judaism is a specific matrix, NOT necessarily something that a random Jew claims it to be and gets his suite of followers and call what they practice an organic development of Judaism. If that makes sense.

[TracyR]

I'm also enjoying this thread! Very much! It can be confusing though when I read here that Jewish holidays are really irrelevant to my faith, yet there is a ton of information that says they should be observed because they are huge in truly understanding my Christian faith. Makes my head hurt a little bit, lol. I appreciate those that are jewish taking the time to really follow this thread and respond.

 

Susan

 

Same here , Susan. I guess I don't understand how Xism ( since everyone likes to type Xitanity ) isn't part of that. I guess the synagogue in our city should stop inviting people to teach them about how its all interrelated in one way in helping us understand our own faith.

 

 

 

And to Bill, no I never said Jesus wasn't God, but he wasn't a god. Big difference.

[Mrs Mungo]

Xism ( since everyone likes to type Xitanity )

 

X is the Latin letter *for Christ*. Jews don't use proper names for God. That's why you also can see where they typed G-d instead of God. It is *out of respect* that they type it that way. That is why saying X-mas is never "taking the Christ out of Christmas" like some people claim. eta: Shortening Judaism to Xism would be calling it Christism. That makes zero sense.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Mrs Mungo

[Ibbygirl]

I just got some good news, so I can finally relax a little.

 

Bill (who has been in a stressful family situation)

 

I'm glad to hear it. Please PM me if you can. I've been anxious to hear how things are going with you. :)

[ElizaG]

EM, thank you for the explanation. :)

 

And THAT is what is the ultimate offense of Christianity, from the Jewish perspective - Christianity is a movement within a circle of ethnic Jews, but completely inconsistent with the matrix of Judaism. The question at hand is, is everything that an ethnic Jew does automatically "Judaism" and do ideas presented by ethnic Jews as "Judaism" necessarily hold that link?

 

And here is where we part. From our side of the fence, NO. Judaism is a very complex, albeit dynamic matrix, as we have tried to explain on this thread. It has its inner logic and inner structure. Ideas which are not compatible with it are simply not Judaism, even if promoted by and originated amongst ethnic Jews. Anything that Jews do in the name of their Jewishness is certainly an expression of yehudiyutam - their *Jewishness* - but it says nothing about yahadutam - their *Judaism*, because Judaism is a specific matrix, NOT necessarily something that a random Jew claims it to be and gets his suite of followers and call what they practice an organic development of Judaism. If that makes sense.

Speaking only for myself, it makes sense in principle, but I don't understand what this "matrix" is. Especially as it seems to include groups such as this one:

 

The Reconstructionist movement was started by a small group within the Conservative movement. They hold that Torah and halacha are are not from G-d, they are the product of the accumulated wisdom and insight of the Jewish people over time.

 

As far as I can figure out, they don't even need to be theists. They observe some parts of the law, but only as the "folkways" of their own ethnic group, not as part of a historic covenant with the Creator. And they are still considered to be part of Judaism (the religion?).

 

To a Christian, this is completely baffling. :confused::confused::confused:

[Karis]

Karis, I believe Yael's point is that Jews in German prior to the rise of Nazism were about as integrated into the fabric of another society as anytime in their history. Only current conditions in the United States might compare.

 

Jews in Germany (wrongly, as it turned out) thought they were secure in their position as "Germans." Germany was a nation at the apex of European culture and Jews were involved all levels of that society.

 

One needs to understand that there remains a "if it could happen in Germany, it could happen anywhere" mentality. I find that a pretty easy position with which to empathize.

 

Bill

 

I agree. I understand. The lashing out under the guise of pride/ self protection is an issue though. Preservation is one thing. No one was attacking. But some people always feel attacked. It's fear. It's understandable. But it must be exhausting to always see everyone else as an enemy. You suspect everyone and end up being perceived as "suspect" and hostile. But you (generic) rationalize it, justify it, and continue to promote cultural (religious/ ethnic) pride through "exclusivity."

 

There has always been a mixed multitude worshipping in truth. The feast days do not belong to the Jewish people exclusively. When were they given? to whom? Where was Judah? Where was Israel? What is the timeline? Some things are easily researched.

 

When Jews respond negatively Christians may not *hear them* because the words are shrouded in anger & resentment. It's counterproductive. It just further solidifies the Christian thought that Jews will be made jealous and it continues to annoy those who really don't care about the Jewish people. Those who do care, eventually tire of being accused of malicious intent.

 

Some believe that the wall of hostility has been removed. At least on their end.

 

 

 

** Just to add - fear isn't always a bad thing.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Karis

[mytwomonkeys]

One thing to remember is that the Jewish conception of a Moshiach/Messiah does not include the idea that that the "anointed one" will (or could) be a divine being, they would not be a "Son of God" (in any way different than other mortals are) and not a "part" of a Triune god-head. God, from the Jewish perspective, is ONE.

 

The Moshiach the Jews await will be a great temporal leader, but not God and not divine being. Just a great human leader.

 

So the whole idea is a very different conception than the Christian one.

 

Bill (who sends you his warmest regards :001_smile:)

 

bill (or anyone) i have a question. i realize this may be totally ignorant, (but i admit to being very ignorant regarding judaism). but since everyone has been very tolerant and gracious, i figure it's a safe place to ask this. if the messiah isn't considered anyone but a coming leader, why did the jewish people in the NT see him as a fulfillment of OT prophecy? anyway. this thread is really interesting, but i admit this aspect confuses me.

 

i hope it's okay to ask.

[mytwomonkeys]

I think I am able to verbalize more clearly my thoughts on some of the issues frequently brought up in this thread (and perhaps a few earlier threads that went into that direction) regarding the relationship between Judaism and Christianity.

 

The problem is not, or not only, that Christianity, from a conceptual perspective, claims things that Judaism does not.

The fundamental problem is that Christianity cancels Torah and commandments *in the name of Judaism*. On a logical level, from a Christian perspective, Christianity *is* Judaism - Christianity as an idea is a natural, organic continuation of Judaism as an idea. Early Christians did not attempt to start a new religion - from their perspective, as well as from the perspective of their successors, they were a natural development of that previous idea. What is "cancellation" and "break off" from the Jewish perspective is organic growth from the Christian perspective. I have encountered this attitude a LOT in my youth because I grew up in a Catholic milieu and this is probably where Eliana and I part in experience, because I am not surprised at all at the idea that Christians do not feel as though they rejected Judaism, even if that is exactly what it looks like from our side of the fence. Speaking strictly conceptually, they think they *are* "Judaism", a natural development of that same idea, rather than a "new thing", with rabbinical post-diaspora Judaism being an anachronism in time which did not "update" properly.

 

And THAT is what is the ultimate offense of Christianity, from the Jewish perspective - Christianity is a movement within a circle of ethnic Jews, but completely inconsistent with the matrix of Judaism. The question at hand is, is everything that an ethnic Jew does automatically "Judaism" and do ideas presented by ethnic Jews as "Judaism" necessarily hold that link?

 

And here is where we part. From our side of the fence, NO. Judaism is a very complex, albeit dynamic matrix, as we have tried to explain on this thread. It has its inner logic and inner structure. Ideas which are not compatible with it are simply not Judaism, even if promoted by and originated amongst ethnic Jews. Anything that Jews do in the name of their Jewishness is certainly an expression of yehudiyutam - their *Jewishness* - but it says nothing about yahadutam - their *Judaism*, because Judaism is a specific matrix, NOT necessarily something that a random Jew claims it to be and gets his suite of followers and call what they practice an organic development of Judaism. If that makes sense.

 

very informative post!! thank you.

[Ester Maria]

if the messiah isn't considered anyone but a coming leader, why did the jewish people in the NT see him as a fulfillment of OT prophecy? anyway. this thread is really interesting, but i admit this aspect confuses me.

 

i hope it's okay to ask.

For the same reason that groups of Jews have "fallen for" a number of false messiahs in history. Jesus as a potential messiah is only a part of the wider picture. People have always been looking for a potential messiah, but so far, he has not come (as Jews see it).

[mytwomonkeys]

For the same reason that groups of Jews have "fallen for" a number of false messiahs in history. Jesus as a potential messiah is only a part of the wider picture. People have always been looking for a potential messiah, but so far, he has not come (as Jews see it).

 

 

i understand that. i guess i'm asking more why they saw him as deity if that mindset doesn't even exist among the jewish religion in the first place. the authors all seem adamant on using OT scripture to prove jesus is the Christ, etc. but when i read threads here that say jewish people don't even believe any of that and never have, it confuses me. does that make sense?:001_smile: are there different beliefs among jews regarding the messiah?

[Mrs Mungo]

i understand that. i guess i'm asking more why they saw him as deity if that mindset doesn't even exist among the jewish religion in the first place. the authors all seem adamant on using OT scripture to prove jesus is the Christ, etc. but when i read threads here that say jewish people don't even believe any of that and never have, it confuses me. does that make sense?:001_smile: are there different beliefs among jews regarding the messiah?

 

I don't they *did* see Jesus as a deity when they started to follow Him or when He proclaimed Himself to be the Messiah. I think at first they thought He was going to become King and set up a Kingdom of Israel. There are shades of this throughout the New Testament. Just to pick an easy example, Acts 1:6, "So when they met together, they asked him, 'Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?'"

[mytwomonkeys]

I don't they *did* see Jesus as a deity when they started to follow Him or when He proclaimed Himself to be the Messiah. I think at first they thought He was going to become King and set up a Kingdom of Israel. There are shades of this throughout the New Testament. Just to pick an easy example, Acts 1:6, "So when they met together, they asked him, 'Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?'"

 

but i'm not talking about first impressions. i'm trying to understand why the jewish authors of the epistles clearly believed something that wasn't even part of their jewish teachings, at least according to what i'm reading here. but then again, i guess that's what made it total heresy to the other jews during that time period though. i dunno. just thinking outloud and asking questions that i could never politely bring up IRL :)

[Mrs Mungo]

but i'm not talking about first impressions. i'm trying to understand why the jewish authors of the epistles clearly believed something that wasn't even part of their jewish teachings, at least according to what i'm reading here. but then again, i guess that's what made it total heresy to the other jews during that time period though. i dunno. just thinking outloud and asking questions that i could never politely bring up IRL :)

 

Because they believed and trusted in Jesus. They heard what He said and taught, they saw Him resurrected from the dead, they saw Him ascend to heaven. I'm pretty sure it was shocking to them at the time. It's clear that none of the apostles expected it.

 

Do you have a good study Bible? That might be a good place to start. :)

[Ester Maria]

but i'm not talking about first impressions. i'm trying to understand why the jewish authors of the epistles clearly believed something that wasn't even part of their jewish teachings, at least according to what i'm reading here. but then again, i guess that's what made it total heresy to the other jews during that time period though. i dunno. just thinking outloud and asking questions that i could never politely bring up IRL :)

You are confusing yehudiyut ("Jewishness") with yahadut ("Judaism"). (ETA: I use these terms loosely, simply to draw a distinction which is otherwise linguistically absent.)

 

They were of Jewish ethnic origin. People of Jewish ethnic origin believed all sorts of things throughout history - but those things are not necessarily *Judaism*. Not everything that a Jew does or believes is Judaism. I can make up my own religion which has nothing to do with Judaism and call it a "Judaically valid" expression of my Jewishness, but it will not be a Judaically sound idea. I can worship Baal and call it that way, it will not be Judaism.

 

You are confusing *Jewish ethnic presence in a movement* with it being a *Judaically sound movement*, i.e. in accordance with Judaism and halacha as a system. Of course that Jews can be heretics, apostates, idolaters, marxists, postmodernists, atheists, you name it - but their being ethnically Jewish and their promoting certain ideas does not necessarily turn it into ideas compatible with Judaism. From our standpoint, it really is totally irrelevant that Christianity spread amongst Jews - it is not a *Judaic phenomenon*.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Ester Maria

[Mrs Mungo]

You are confusing yehudiyut ("Jewishness") with yahadut ("Judaism").

 

They were of Jewish ethnic origin. People of Jewish ethnic origin believed all sorts of things throughout history - but those things are not necessarily *Judaism*. Not everything that a Jew does or believes is Judaism. I can make up my own religion which has nothing to do with Judaism and call it a "Judaically valid" expression of my Jewishness, but it will not be a Judaically sound idea. I can worship Baal and call it that way, it will not be Judaism.

 

You are confusing *Jewish ethnic presence in a movement* with it being a *Judaically sound movement*, i.e. in accordance with Judaism and halacha as a system. Of course that Jews can be heretics, apostates, idolaters, marxists, postmodernists, atheists, you name it - but their being ethnically Jewish and their promoting certain ideas does not necessarily turn it into ideas compatible with Judaism. From our standpoint, it really is totally irrelevant that Christianity spread amongst Jews - it is not a *Judaic phenomenon*.

 

In other words, it wasn't what was or is taught in Judaism.

 

From a Christian perspective: That's why the apostles were so surprised. It is why many people didn't accept it. It's why Jesus was crucified.