Saved: You are because of how you think/believe or You are because of what you do?

[ereks mom]

faith in God is a verb, not mere head knowledge.

 

YES!

 

My dh is a pastor, and he says this all the time! The Greek words that we translate as 'faith' and 'believe' go much, much deeper than what we think of. We use the same 'believe' when we say, "I believe I'll have another piece of pie" as we do when we say, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God who saves me from my sins."

[MrsMe]

That's what I'm thinking.

 

I'm not religious, but when I see people who are motivated by their beliefs to perform kindnesses, feed the hungry, teach the illiterate to read, or any of thousands of other loving acts I have to respect that, and acknowledge these people have tried to make this world a better place.

 

When good works seem almost condemned as "insufficient for salvation" and "by faith alone" becomes the credo, not so much.

 

Bill

 

Not picking on you Bill, :) It is insufficient, because you're missing what Jesus did for you on the cross for your sins...previous, present and in the future! Think of it as a whole and you only have a fraction.

 

Can you imagine Jesus on that cross, and God pouring every man's sin on Jesus, previous, present and future? Every man's sin! Really, imagine it! That's the part that needs faith in Jesus Christ. That's why Jesus said, "No one can come to the Father, except through Me!" Powerful!

[ma23peas]

Thanks for answering. I think I am still missing something though.

 

So how do you know if you are truly saved then? Can you know that before the end? It sounds like, to me, that you only know for sure that you truly believed if you have persevered to the end. The evidence of having truly believed is not a known quantity until you get to the end and have not turned away.

 

Lots of people think they truly believe and then later change their minds and don't believe. If the answer is that they never truly believed (even though, at the time, they were convinced that they did), then how can anyone be sure now that they are truly saved and that they won't turn away at some later time? How can one be sure that they are not deluding themselves?

 

First, for Bill, When I first began taking in the scripture related to Paul, I had a much different view of his path and meaning. After living 30 years in the spirit, the scripture and the Holy Spirit have revealed one of the greatest acts of love we have known. Some of this also was supported by studies and travel to Malta and Italy on the places he traveled...it really was a spiritual charge that opened my eyes to the works of this devoted follower....his life is a stellar example of how then shall we live....love the God your Father with all your heart, soul, and mind...if we follow our own map, even as well as we possibly can...how can we do the former?

 

Now on salvation, how do you know if you are truly saved. As a teen And into my early twenties I struggled with this, I still felt flawed to the point that how do I really know? When I met my husband he had been exposed to religion but had problems in that faith....as a dating couple we began scripture studies and he gave his life over to Christ, in discussions...after receiving the Holy Spirit he showed no fear of death...I on the other hand always had a fear of death...I truly believed that I was saved but did not 'want' to leave this Earth...his newfound joy in following God made him excited to see the God who created him and loved him so much. Now because I feared death does that mean I was not truly saved? No! It means the Holy Spirit still had a work to do in me...I can firmly declare I have more of a heart like my husband now than when we first met! :)

God knows the desires of our hearts, those that profess to be believers but live out their hearts being fully reliant on themselves is not a follower he is an observer...anyone can observe Christ and try to emulate his acts but without the Holy Spirit you can not 'be' with God...the verse that says many will say in my name that they are mine, but they are not..only God knows the inner workings of a heart. The scripture is the best source we have to find these answers...when I read the word I pray that the Holy Spirit will reveal the word to me in a way that I could not do on my own, I continually find the answers I seek when I lean on His understanding, not my own.

[ereks mom]

Romans 3:28 KJV (Paul)

 

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

 

James 2:24 KJV (James)

 

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

 

These verses are taken out of context. James and Paul do not disagree; this has been addressed numerous times. You can see one reputable article about the apparent contradiction here. And here is another.

[Onceuponatime]

Neither.

 

I read this before the poll, and I still can't really respond.

 

"Question everything you've been told about "salvation," hold steadfast to believing there is a God, and that faith is not centered on what happens after you die but the quality of relationships on earth."

 

Where is this quote from?

 

 

 

I can't really answer the poll either. My beliefs about God have so radically changed that I'm still dealing with that. I couldn't say what I believe about salvation at the moment.

[mommaduck]

I didn't feel I could vote in this poll. But here is my answer:

[MrsMe]

Thanks for answering. I think I am still missing something though. I honestly have never understood this, even while I was attending churches that taught it, so this may just end up something I personally don't get.

 

So how do you know if you are truly saved then? Can you know that before the end? It sounds like, to me, that you only know for sure that you truly believed if you have persevered to the end. The evidence of having truly believed is not a known quantity until you get to the end and have not turned away.

 

Lots of people think they truly believe and then later change their minds and don't believe. If the answer is that they never truly believed (even though, at the time, they were convinced that they did), then how can anyone be sure now that they are truly saved and that they won't turn away at some later time? How can one be sure that they are not deluding themselves?

 

I think there are some that wonder if they're truly saved! It's the "what if?" thought process. Yes, you know that before the very end. Every one is different. Some it hits you like a mack truck, for some it dwindles in, in increments. It is different for every single person. I don't honestly think that if they really believed, really searched their heart, that they could honestly say that they believed if they fell away.

 

Having faith in Jesus and being with God in mind and spirit is truly a continous process (lack of better word). You don't "believe" then just continue on in your old merry little world. I would ask that person if they read the Bible? Did they take the time for God every day? Did they try to live their life in a way to be disciple (where works comes in)? Are you hanging around like minded people as to further your faith? It's always a work in progress. Are you doing what God asks to stay in your faith? There isn't an hour in a day that I don't think about Him. Doubt is okay, but it's what you do with that doubt that matters. You have doubt? Go to your Bible. See what it says. Go find a Christian friend and talk it out.

[Avila]

Now on salvation, how do you know if you are truly saved. As a teen And into my early twenties I struggled with this, I still felt flawed to the point that how do I really know? When I met my husband he had been exposed to religion but had problems in that faith....as a dating couple we began scripture studies and he gave his life over to Christ, in discussions...after receiving the Holy Spirit he showed no fear of death...I on the other hand always had a fear of death...I truly believed that I was saved but did not 'want' to leave this Earth...his newfound joy in following God made him excited to see the God who created him and loved him so much. Now because I feared death does that mean I was not truly saved? No! It means the Holy Spirit still had a work to do in me...I can firmly declare I have more of a heart like my husband now than when we first met! :)

God knows the desires of our hearts, those that profess to be believers but live out their hearts being fully reliant on themselves is not a follower he is an observer...anyone can observe Christ and try to emulate his acts but without the Holy Spirit you can not 'be' with God...the verse that says many will say in my name that they are mine, but they are not..only God knows the inner workings of a heart. The scripture is the best source we have to find these answers...when I read the word I pray that the Holy Spirit will reveal the word to me in a way that I could not do on my own, I continually find the answers I seek when I lean on His understanding, not my own.

 

I am not sure we are as far apart on this as was stated. All of the things you talk about are why you believe you are saved, but you are currently following Christ and actively believing in him. I think we would both say that someone who is not currently following Christ and actively believing in him would not be saved, under ordinary circumstances. The difference is that you would say that they were never saved in the first place, and I would say that conditionally, they were, while they were active disciples.

 

I still believe that you can truly be a disciple today and not be, at some later point. Lots of people IRL and on this board have talked about and been open about being practicing Christians at some point in their lives but no longer doing so. And I believe that they were, when they were. I think that, at any given point, salvation is a process and until the process is over, we cannot be 100% certain of the outcome. We hope, we trust in his mercy, and we believe his promises. But we have to run the race and endure to receive the reward.

 

Thank you for sharing your perspective. I appreciate your openness about what is a personal topic and can be controversial.

[milovany]

Are you hanging around like minded people as to further your faith?

 

Not picking on you specifically but I can't stand this phrase. Truth is truth whether people are "like minded" or not. In my experience, hanging around with just "like minded" people was dangerous to true faith. Our church, now, is full of people who are very much NOT "like minded," but we're united around our faith in Christ and our desire for the Mysteries (sacraments) he has given us, especially the Eucharist. At the chalice, we are like-hearted (loving, needing, forgiving and being forgiven by each other), even as we're not all like minded. [/rant]

Edited December 16, 2011 by milovaný

[MrsMe]

Not picking on you specifically but I can't stand this phrase. Truth is truth whether people are "like minded" or not. In my experience, hanging around with just "like minded" people was dangerous to true faith. Our church, now, is full of people who are very much NOT "like minded," but we're united around our faith in Christ and our desire for the Mysteries (sacraments) he has given us, especially the Eucharist. At the chalice, we are like-hearted (loving, needing, forgiving and being forgiven by each other), even as we're not all like minded. [/rant]

 

Poor choice of words. I meant other Christians as it so states in the Bible. I can't remember the verse, but I'll find it when I have time.

[mommaduck]

Not picking on you specifically but I can't stand this phrase. Truth is truth whether people are "like minded" or not. In my experience, hanging around with just "like minded" people was dangerous to true faith. Our church, now, is full of people who are very much NOT "like minded," but we're united around our faith in Christ and our desire for the Mysteries (sacraments) he has given us, especially the Eucharist. At the chalice, we are like-hearted (loving, needing, forgiving and being forgiven by each other), even as we're not all like minded. [/rant]

You know, Orthodoxy is the first place I've EVER experienced this. It is SO refreshing!

[Spy Car]

First, IF one is truly saved, good works follows faith. It is an inner transformation. And that's what people miss as far as faith vs works. You ARE transformed. It's a process of sanctification. You see the vileness of culture. It sticks out like a sore thumb on every single level. You want to please God, because you truly see what Jesus has done for you, in your heart, mind and soul. It makes you weep. Good works alone will not get you anywhere, because what would constitute your works better over someone elses?

 

Well, if a person's transformation leads them to begin judging "the vileness of the culture" and therefore the vileness of their fellow man, I do not see how this is consistent with acting from a position of loving. It seems somewhat hypocritical and counter to the message as I understand it.

 

I get that one needs a moral sense of right and wrong so one can help others when they need help, and that we are open to being helped when we go morally astray. But seeing people and human cultural as "vile" seems an unloving posture to be operating on, and not one consistent with the message.

 

As to valuing one good work over another, why is it necessary? A small kindness adds to a better world. It is a positive. Positives add up. Life is not a competition. I know I'm a lot more impressed by people who act from love and kindness to help others than those who set themselves up as self-righteous judges of the culture.

 

Take the 10 commandments. In "man's" eyes you see murder worse than lying. God sees it as you both broke the commandments. Man and his laws see's it as worse. In God's eyes you are no better than each other.

 

Not to condone lying, but this is an absurdity. Or at least a positive reinforcement that I prefer to live under man's laws. Otherwise we live in a world full of "murderers" in a moral sense. I know some embrace this contemptuous view of humankind, but I think it is a destructive way to see the world and cause for many of the problems we have as a society.

 

I want people to perform kindness, but it doesn't do anything for their sin...then, current and later. If you don't believe in your heart that Jesus died for YOUR sin, than works mean nothing.

 

Why should "belief" be a free-pass for behaving unrighteously? I'd prefer to live with those who strive to live ethically and morally (religious, or not) than among those who think they have a get-out-of-jail-free card.

 

God says that at the narrow gate, "I never knew you". You want to be in that book of life! Without Jesus Christ none of it means anything. To make it simple Jesus washed away your sin on the cross through your faith in him. He took away that sin on the cross...God poured out every single person's sin in the world for every day of their/your life ever and Jesus felt it. "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" If you don't have this faith that he did this, works mean nothing. You still have all your sin. It makes you no better than anyone else.

 

It doesn't work for me, sorry. I've seen too many people (both religious and non-religious) who have lead exemplary lives, as well as the opposite, to believe that it is all the same. If that were true—that we all have the moral character of murders in the eyes of a creator-god—then one would seriously need to question the perspective. It does not match the understanding of the Jews, nor does it match the message, as I understand it, in the gospels, but it is the direction that Paul took Christianity. I see it as an unfortunate path.

 

Bill

[milovany]

Poor choice of words. I meant other Christians as it so states in the Bible. I can't remember the verse, but I'll find it when I have time.

 

I guess I went "on rant" because my previous experience WAS in church with other Christians (well, it wasn't one church in particular, it was a mindset that I saw developing in us across churches). But I understand what you're saying here.

Edited December 16, 2011 by milovaný

[Spy Car]

These verses are taken out of context. James and Paul do not disagree; this has been addressed numerous times. You can see one reputable article about the apparent contradiction here. And here is another.

 

I did supply all of James 2 in a subsequent post.

 

If all the believers in Christendom manifested the fruits of the faith they claim, methinks we'd be living in a very different world. I'm not seeing it. The fruits well-lived and loving lives has been as strongly (and I'd say more strongly) exemplified by those I've known in my life by who claim no particular religion, than those who claim their way is the only way.

 

On that topic, be it by faith, by works, or the interaction of the two this passage in James tells us that Abraham was "justified." Yet, others will tell us that is impossible as there is only one door. Which is it?

 

Bill

[MrsMe]

1) Well, if a person's transformation leads them to begin judging "the vileness of the culture" and therefore the vileness of their fellow man, I do not see how this is consistent with acting from a position of loving. It seems somewhat hypocritical and counter to the message as I understand it.

 

I get that one needs a moral sense of right and wrong so one can help others when they need help, and that we are open to being helped when we go morally astray. But seeing people and human cultural as "vile" seems an unloving posture to be operating on, and not one consistent with the message.

 

2) As to valuing one good work over another, why is it necessary? A small kindness adds to a better world. It is a positive. Positives add up. Life is not a competition. I know I'm a lot more impressed by people who act from love and kindness to help others than those who set themselves up as self-righteous judges of the culture.

 

 

 

Not to condone lying, but this is an absurdity. Or at least a positive reinforcement that I prefer to live under man's laws. Otherwise we live in a world full of "murderers" in a moral sense. I know some embrace this contemptuous view of humankind, but I think it is a destructive way to see the world and cause for many of the problems we have as a society.

 

 

 

Why should "belief" be a free-pass for behaving unrighteously? I'd prefer to live with those who strive to live ethically and morally (religious, or not) than among those who think they have a get-out-of-jail-free card.

 

 

 

3) It doesn't work for me, sorry. I've seen too many people (both religious and non-religious) who have lead exemplary lives, as well as the opposite, to believe that it is all the same. If that were true—that we all have the moral character of murders in the eyes of a creator-god—then one would seriously need to question the perspective. It does not match the understanding of the Jews, nor does it match the message, as I understand it, in the gospels, but it is the direction that Paul took Christianity. I see it as an unfortunate path.

 

Bill

 

1) This is where discipleship comes into play. Also, Romans 12:2 "Don't copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God tranform you into a new person by changing the way you think." (We are also commanded not to think we are better than we are, because we are not.) But we do this lovingly through discipleship as a believer. You also get that moral sense of right and wrong through God's commandments.

 

2) Kindness isn't bad, but it won't alone, get you to heaven. You have "man's view of what is good. Matthew 5:18-19 "I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God's law will disappear until its purpose is achieved. So if you ignore the least commandment and teach others to do the same you will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven."

 

God does tell us to abide by our government's laws. So in this case yes, on our (Man's) level, we don't murder....etc. However...."God" doesn't seem them as different, and in this light, a murderous man who comes to Jesus through faith will go through the narrow gate, whereas a man who simply lies but does not have faith will not. If a murderer has no faith and a lier or an adulterer has no faith, God seems them both the same. Equal sinners.

 

3) In the faith or not in the faith we are ALL sinners. You are basing your beliefs upon what you see as man's example instead of the word of Jesus Christ. In other words, you can't base beliefs on man's ways, as they are all sinful. But then Matthew 7:26-27 comes to mind as well. Also, just because someone percieves themselves as Christian, doesn't mean they are, only God knows what's in their heart. That's why God says, "I never knew you". As a true Christian they use the Bible as a guide, not what they see in other men.

 

HTH.

John 3:16

[MrsMe]

I did supply all of James 2 in a subsequent post.

 

If all the believers in Christendom manifested the fruits of the faith they claim, methinks we'd be living in a very different world. I'm not seeing it. The fruits well-lived and loving lives has been as strongly (and I'd say more strongly) exemplified by those I've known in my life by who claim no particular religion, than those who claim their way is the only way.

 

On that topic, be it by faith, by works, or the interaction of the two this passage in James tells us that Abraham was "justified." Yet, others will tell us that is impossible as there is only one door. Which is it?

 

Bill

 

You won't always see it, because you're basing perfection on man who is a sinner. Christian or not, we are always and will always be a sinner. Only Jesus is perfect. Abraham was justified. Old Testament is different as it's pre-Messiah. If you notice throughout the Bible, no-one God used was perfect, in fact they were far from it, some did horrible things!

 

I think once we base right and wrong through teachings of the entire Bible instead of what we see through Man, then the light will be evident.

Edited December 16, 2011 by alilac

[KathyBC]

The fact that you could take Heather in NC's quote so out of context as to give it the exact opposite meaning alarms me. Do you have a concrete example of the dangers of living under grace alone? I can't tell where you're coming from otherwise; and thus your thought procesess seem completely muddled to me.

[Lovedtodeath]

My belief is that good works do not produce salvation but salvation will produce good works.

Well there you have it! The whole answer summed up in one sentence.

 

Absolutely not. Then we'd have a society who is proud, and feels they are better than the rest and works wouldn't truly be in their heart, but a competition that breeds narcisism.

We are thinking of the same works-based salvation group of people aren't we? ;)

 

Can you imagine Jesus on that cross, and God pouring every man's sin on Jesus, previous, present and future? Every man's sin! Really, imagine it! That's the part that needs faith in Jesus Christ. That's why Jesus said, "No one can come to the Father, except through Me!" Powerful!

There is more to that scripture at John 14:6. I was baptized in water at 14 years old because I had faith that Christ died to save me from my sins, but I never had God until recently. "No one comes to the Father, except through me." Christ is our only mediator, and he communicates with God for us because we have Him in our hearts. With His Spirit in our hearts he is there for every thought. Without Him in my heart, my prayers were very rarely heard. Now, I am amazed at the power of His name. Acts 3; Luke 10:17

 

I still believe that you can truly be a disciple today and not be, at some later point. Lots of people IRL and on this board have talked about and been open about being practicing Christians at some point in their lives but no longer doing so. And I believe that they were, when they were. I think that, at any given point, salvation is a process and until the process is over, we cannot be 100% certain of the outcome. We hope, we trust in his mercy, and we believe his promises. But we have to run the race and endure to receive the reward.

 

So how do you know if you are truly saved then? Can you know that before the end? It sounds like, to me, that you only know for sure that you truly believed if you have persevered to the end. The evidence of having truly believed is not a known quantity until you get to the end and have not turned away. How can one be sure that they are not deluding themselves?

I ask Him to hold on to me, for it is not of my doing, but His:

 

Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. --2 Corinthians 1:21, 22

 

Ephesians 1:13 By means of him also, after you believed, you were sealed with the promised holy spirit, which is a token in advance of our inheritance

 

 

 

Having believed, - you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance.-- Ephesians 1:14

 

 

 

Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.-- 2 Corinthians 5:5

 

 

 

1 John 5:13 “you have eternal life†John 7:38 “streams of living water will flow from within†1 Thessalonians 5:8; 2 Corinthians 1:21, 22

 

 

 

Sorry about the colors, I copied and pasted from a letter I wrote and they won't go away.

 

 

[Lovedtodeath]

If all the believers in Christendom

DING DING DING!!! Way too many people have belief in Christendom.

[MrsMe]

Hi Carmen! :) :)

 

Perhaps someone can better explain Abraham as he is O.T. I had to edit, as I had a brain cramp.

[Wayfaring Stranger]

 

"On that topic, be it by faith, by works, or the interaction of the two this passage in James tells us that Abraham was "justified." Yet, others will tell us that is impossible..."

 

Bill

 

Who says this? I do not think any major Christian tradition would say that it is impossible for Abraham to be justified.

[Spy Car]

1) This is where discipleship comes into play. Also, Romans 12:2 "Don't copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God tranform you into a new person by changing the way you think." (We are also commanded not to think we are better than we are, because we are not.) But we do this lovingly through discipleship as a believer. You also get that moral sense of right and wrong through God's commandments.

 

Ok, but we've had two thousand years for the "transformed" to set an example of better behavior and better customs, but it has not happened. Where's the fruit?

 

It is easy to cast the world as "vile," but better to make it less true.

 

2) Kindness isn't bad, but it won't alone, get you to heaven. You have "man's view of what is good. Matthew 5:18-19 "I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God's law will disappear until its purpose is achieved. So if you ignore the least commandment and teach others to do the same you will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven."

 

God does tell us to abide by our government's laws. So in this case yes, on our (Man's) level, we don't murder....etc. However...."God" doesn't seem them as different, and in this light, a murderous man who comes to Jesus through faith will go through the narrow gate, whereas a man who simply lies but does not have faith will not. If a murderer has no faith and a lier or an adulterer has no faith, God seems them both the same. Equal sinners.

 

Perfect example of why I can't embrace this theology. If a murderer is the same as a non-murderer—and not just that—a murderer spends eternity in paradise, while a non-murder who has by "man's standards" lived an ethical, if imperfect, life is cast into hell-fire, then something is wrong with this picture.

 

3) In the faith or not in the faith we are ALL sinners. You are basing your beliefs upon what you see as man's example instead of the word of Jesus Christ. In other words, you can't base beliefs on man's ways, as they are all sinful. But then Matthew 7:26-27 comes to mind as well. Also, just because someone percieves themselves as Christian, doesn't mean they are, only God knows what's in their heart. That's why God says, "I never knew you". As a true Christian they use the Bible as a guide, not what they see in other men.

 

HTH.

John 3:16

 

I think believing people are vile and sinful is a destructive way to live ones life, and works against the idea that we should love our neighbors (and even our enemies). If we do not respect peoples humanity, what's to love?

 

Bill

Edited December 16, 2011 by Spy Car

[Spy Car]

Who says this? I do not think any major Christian tradition would say that it is impossible for Abraham to be justified.

 

Was Abraham a Christian who worshipped Jesus as his "personal savior?"

 

Bill

[SailorMom]

Bill, I just wanted to say that I had the same thoughts (as you) about Christianity and that is what made me realize I couldn't be a Christian.

[Wayfaring Stranger]

Was Abraham a Christian who worshipped Jesus as his "personal savior?"

 

Bill

 

Abraham worshiped Jesus. The Orthodox believe the Hospitality of Abraham is the only icon that can really show the three Persons of the Trinity. Jesus did not just start existing at his birth. Why would any of the OT fore-fathers be excluded from justification ?

[KatieH]

If I was forced to only chose one or the other, I'd go with the first, I suppose. You can do things that are right and just in God's eyes, but if you have no belief in Him behind those actions, they mean nothing in regards to your salvation. But as a Catholic, the first option doesn't really cut it for me, either.

[lovemykids]

Thanks for answering. I think I am still missing something though. I honestly have never understood this, even while I was attending churches that taught it, so this may just end up something I personally don't get.

 

So how do you know if you are truly saved then? Can you know that before the end? It sounds like, to me, that you only know for sure that you truly believed if you have persevered to the end. The evidence of having truly believed is not a known quantity until you get to the end and have not turned away.

 

Lots of people think they truly believe and then later change their minds and don't believe. If the answer is that they never truly believed (even though, at the time, they were convinced that they did), then how can anyone be sure now that they are truly saved and that they won't turn away at some later time? How can one be sure that they are not deluding themselves?

 

It seems we can never really be sure. I struggle with these questions as well. So, what about these scriptures?

 

 

Zeph. 2:3 Seek the Lord, all you humble of the earth who have carried out his ordinances; seek righteousness, seek humility. Perhaps you will be hidden in the day of the Lord’s anger.

 

 

2 Cor. 13:5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?

 

(New American Standard Bible)

 

 

 

 

 

Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. --2 Corinthians 1:21, 22

 

Ephesians 1:13 By means of him also, after you believed, you were sealed with the promised holy spirit, which is a token in advance of our inheritance

 

 

 

Having believed, - you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance.-- Ephesians 1:14

 

 

 

Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.-- 2 Corinthians 5:5

 

 

 

1 John 5:13 “you have eternal life†John 7:38 “streams of living water will flow from within†1 Thessalonians 5:8; 2 Corinthians 1:21, 22

 

 

 

 

I like these...they are comforting.

[Spy Car]

Abraham worshiped Jesus. The Orthodox believe the Hospitality of Abraham is the only icon that can really show the three Persons of the Trinity. Jesus did not just start existing at his birth. Why would any of the OT fore-fathers be excluded from justification ?

 

Why, if—as you suggest—Abraham had this knowledge, would he chose not to share it with the rest of humanity? Where is the evidence?

 

And why would Jesus need to come in corporal form and be crucified, if he could be otherwise known, and people could be otherwise justified? It does say Abraham was justified by his own actions and faith, correct?

 

Bill

[mommaduck]

Why, if—as you suggest—Abraham had this knowledge, would he chose not to share it with the rest of humanity? Where is the evidence?

 

And why would Jesus need to come in corporal form and be crucified, if he could be otherwise known, and people could be otherwise justified? It does say Abraham was justified by his own actions and faith, correct?

 

Bill

One thing about Orthodox: We accept that there is some mystery and things we will never fully understand, as we are not God :)

[MrsMe]

1)Ok, but we've had two thousand years for the "transformed" to set an example of better behavior and better customs, but it has not happened. Where's the fruit?

 

It is easy to cast the world as "vile," but better to make it less true.

 

 

 

2)Perfect example of why I can't embrace this theology. If a murder is the same as a non-murder—and not just that—a murderer spends eternity in paradise, while a non-murder who has by "man's standards" lived an ethical, if imperfect, life is cast into he'll-fire, then something is wrong with this picture.

 

 

 

3)I think believing people are vile and sinful is a destructive way to live ones life, and works against the idea that we should love our neighbors (and even our enemies). If we do not respect peoples humanity, what's to love?

 

Bill

 

1)The fruit is in living the way that God wants, having everyone come to God through Jesus, with also the help of our discipleship so that we can live forever in heaven. It's not part. It's all. The fruit is knowing that life on earth is not easy and fruit will come by living forever in heaven in a perfectly beautiful place with God, which is what he wanted to begin with, but we were too sinful.

 

2) Well no. One has come to Christ. When you come to Christ (born again), you repent your sins. This is thanking Jesus for taking all your sin on that cross FOR you (all of them), because you can't. Jesus was perfect, without sin so he was the perfect sacrifice. But yet God laid it all on him on the cross. OUR sin! Nothing you can do, will do what Jesus did for you. Not works, nothing. The one who simply does good things, simply does good things. You can't just say I did these things and no-one is perfect, so I should live with you forever. God can say, well if you didn't believe in Jesus and what he did for you on the cross you are full of sin. I can't have you here. You can't be in God's presence with sin. Again the verse, "no-one comes to the Father except through Me" (Jesus talking).

 

It's natural for us to think in man's terms. God doesn't care much about man's terms. You can't take part of God's word (commandments) then throw out the rest of what he wants. The Bible is a book. You can't take a portion of a story and have it make sense unless you read most of the book!

 

You're also saying that you are better than someone else because you think your sin isn't as bad as someone else's. Then let's compare other commandments. God says if you love me obey my commandments! John 14:15. He didn't say commandment. Or just #'s 2 & 4. ALL.

 

If you believe you are good enough through works, that breaks commandment #1 as you are putting your works before God.

 

3) The world is vile and sinful. We are ALL sinful. (Thank you Adam and Eve).:glare: I don't respect others' wrongs. I don't respect my own either. But I disagree that it works against the idea of loving our neighbors and enemies. That's a dangerous thought to move on to. As a Christian we learn to hate the sin, not the person. On man's level, culture would say we love everyone and their actions aren't hurting anyone. They're hurting God. In fact I believe your thought process does the opposite. It brings everyone together through Christ. God wants us ALL to live together with Him forever. Again, it's discipleship. Loving your neighbor doesn't mean we pat them on the back and say it's okay. We disciple not through what we think is right and wrong, but through what God says.

Edited December 16, 2011 by alilac
typos Holy buckets!

[EKS]

So let me get this straight--as long as you believe the right things, you can *behave* in evil ways and it's all good salvation-wise?

 

Maybe that explains the state of the world.

[milovany]

One thing about Orthodox: We accept that there is some mystery and things we will never fully understand, as we are not God :)

 

This, and part of that is that a linear or chronological approach to time is not the only approach there is (which is definitely part of "mystery"!). In Orthodoxy, we don't see time as solely a chronological march through history; we see Christ's resurrection as THE point in time from which all other history (past and present) happens. The question isn't "Why didn't Abraham tell us about Christ thousands of years before Christ became incarnate?" but "What does the incarnation of Christ mean in regard to the life of Abraham?"

 

Christ became incarnate to to experience (and therefore conquer) death for all ~ those living before his earthly time and after. Why did He wait until the precise moment in time that He came? I have no idea, but with the above perspective, it doesn't matter. Communion with God is available to all no matter when He accomplished what he accomplished (victory over death).

Edited December 16, 2011 by milovaný

[Avila]

So let me get this straight--as long as you believe the right things, you can *behave* in evil ways and it's all good salvation-wise?

 

Maybe that explains the state of the world.

 

Well, not for all Christians, but I think that is the belief system Bill is having issues with. I do know people who believe this, but I don't know that I have really seen that extreme argued on this thread. Of course, it is a large thread ...

[MrsMe]

So let me get this straight--as long as you believe the right things, you can *behave* in evil ways and it's all good salvation-wise?

 

Maybe that explains the state of the world.

 

Absolutely not! Only God knows your heart. God knows what you believe. He knows whether you are truly born-again, and are really repentant. These people can fool man, but not God and are not truly believers.

 

If you believe in Jesus, you don't do what you feel like... on purpose, because you think you received a "get out of jail free" card. As a believer you truly repent and ask forgiveness on a regular basis because the sin you do makes you sick. Then you thank God for Jesus! Pray, pray, pray!

 

 

But yes, it could explain the state of the world because of this error in thought.

[Joanne]

Where is this quote from?

 

 

 

.

 

My brain, which is why I didn't offer sources.

[JenniferB]

The fact that you could take Heather in NC's quote so out of context as to give it the exact opposite meaning alarms me. Do you have a concrete example of the dangers of living under grace alone? I can't tell where you're coming from otherwise; and thus your thought procesess seem completely muddled to me.

 

Heather in NC explained her context in her reply here. She calls the view that someone would go to hell for celebrating Christmas erroneous. But, then here she says that this woman would not go to hell for an erroneous view of salvation, though she said in my original quote that one could go to hell for an erroneous view of salvation. I still don't know what she meant. But, oh well, I don't have to understand her view.

 

The point of my post and poll is to try to understand and to provoke a conversation about what people think the catalyst to salvation is. Is it a right view, or is it right practices? Sure, there are other ideas about salvation, but I'm interested in knowing what people think about these two ideas. I admit, I didn't word the poll just right, and so I failed in that. I tried to clarify that I'm interested in what people think the catalyst to salvation is. Some think salvation happens in an instant, a point in time, and some think it's a process. But something has to get it all started. Is it the right belief that gets it going, or a move in the right direction that gets it all going? Does your right belief actually change the way God looks at you, and therefore He gives you His Spirit so that you can live the rest of your life "saved" or "being saved," or does your move in the right direction, say getting baptised, and entering into the Church change *you,* and therefore you can now move in the right direction with God's grace and live the rest of your life with His Spirit and doing good works? Does what you think in your head and believe in your heart actually change the status you have with God?

 

You asked me if I have any concrete examples of the dangers of living under "grace alone." H-E-double hockey sticks, yes! This idea is so dangerous, in my opinion. I used to know someone, a very close friend, a deacon of the church, and a man who would teach classes in Sunday School who professed "grace alone" and who also professed the "chosen by God" idea, who divorced the wife of his youth and left her with 3 very young adopted children, one with special needs in exchange for a younger live-in woman with no children. These were very close friends of ours who came to our home fellowship group for years. Just before he began the divorce process I distinctly remember sitting at my dinning room table and he said to me, "it doesn't really matter what we do, we are either chosen or not chosen and there's nothing we can do about that." After this man did this to his wife and kids, he went merrily along his way attending a different church.

 

I have another very long story, which involves myself being spied upon, talked about behind my back, and plotted against in order to separate myself from my best friend because of my "different" views about salvation and my bad influence on my friend. These people profess "faith alone" and "grace alone" and they often put their "grace alone" messages up on Facebook. Anything other than "grace alone" is unacceptable to them, and anyone who might influence another in a different direction must be put out from among them. That happened to be me.

 

So, now you have it. The whole reason why I put up this thread. I really dislike the whole grace alone idea. I also dislike the whole chosen by God idea. I think we people need to take ownership of our choices and decisions. We choose to follow Christ or not to with our actions. I believe our hearts and our minds are revealed by our actions. Our actions show ourselves and others what's really going on in our hearts and minds. I do not believe that what you "believe in your heart" can actually do anything to change how God looks at you. I believe that He looks at you with love - unfathomable love - no matter what you think or believe in your heart. What changes your salvation status or motion whether it's stagnant or moving toward God is how one responds to the Gospel. If one responds with obedience to what Jesus said he or she is going in the right direction. If one ignores or does the opposite of what Jesus said then one is stagnant or walking away. Every day we are either walking toward Christ, standing still, or walking away. It's a choice we have and it takes everything we have to make that movement happen. Now, when we move toward Christ I believe He helps us, and it's a mutual relationship. Our efforts are necessary, but not the cause for pride or boasting because whatever progress we can make is by the grace of God. I do believe in grace, but not grace alone.

 

Obviously, my thoughts are how I feel today, and I may change my mind as I learn more and read the Gospels more. So, I reserve the right to change my mind. I'm learning and unlearning. God help me.

[Wayfaring Stranger]

Why, if—as you suggest—Abraham had this knowledge, would he chose not to share it with the rest of humanity? Where is the evidence?

 

And why would Jesus need to come in corporal form and be crucified, if he could be otherwise known, and people could be otherwise justified? It does say Abraham was justified by his own actions and faith, correct?

 

Bill

 

I should really stay out of this because it is a classic case of "I do not believe in the God you do not believe in either."

 

The Orthodox believe there are two kinds of things in this world "created things and uncreated things." There is only one uncreated thing that is God. One of the things that is created is time. It does not matter if Jesus comes before, after or during someones life time. God is not subject to time.

 

What knowledge? Abraham did not know what the plan was. He just knew he was to be the father of a people that would bless the whole world.

 

Where is the evidence? I do not even know what that means in this context. Do you want me to go and proof text the Bible for you? The Bible is not a science book.

 

Justified and saved are not the same thing. Salvation comes when Christ goes into the tomb and brakes its bonds to free the captives or at the judgement day. It is something God does.

[lovetobehome]

Here is my answer, it's a nice little video...

 

I have been saved, through Jesus' death on the cross.

I am being saved in everyday experiences, obedience and love for others

I will be saved at the great and final judgment.

[Ester Maria]

I should technically be disqualified from this discussion from the very beginning, not operating with the concept of "salvation" as Christians know it.

 

That being said, I DID vote - that it is about deeds, i.e. concrete practice, rather than belief in and of itself. My heresies include a view that religion ought to be defined principally in terms of DOING (adhering to a certain "life program", certain set of rules and certain ritual aspects) rather than in terms of believing only / personal relationship with a deity and a change in person that presumably happens as a result of that.

[mommaduck]

Here is my answer, it's a nice little video...

 

I have been saved, through Jesus' death on the cross.

I am being saved in everyday experiences, obedience and love for others

I will be saved at the great and final judgment.

LOL! Same one I posted a few pages back :D I love listening to that video.

[MrsMe]

I tried to clarify that I'm interested in what people think the catalyst to salvation is. Some think salvation happens in an instant, a point in time, and some think it's a process. But something has to get it all started. Is it the right belief that gets it going, or a move in the right direction that gets it all going?

 

Does your right belief actually change the way God looks at you, and therefore He gives you His Spirit so that you can live the rest of your life "saved" or "being saved," or does your move in the right direction, say getting baptised, and entering into the Church change *you,* and therefore you can now move in the right direction with God's grace and live the rest of your life with His Spirit and doing good works? Does what you think in your head and believe in your heart actually change the status you have with God?

 

You asked me if I have any concrete examples of the dangers of living under "grace alone." H-E-double hockey sticks, yes! This idea is so dangerous, in my opinion. I used to know someone, a very close friend, a deacon of the church, and a man who would teach classes in Sunday School who professed "grace alone" and who also professed the "chosen by God" idea, who divorced the wife of his youth and left her with 3 very young adopted children, one with special needs in exchange for a younger live-in woman with no children. These were very close friends of ours who came to our home fellowship group for years. Just before he began the divorce process I distinctly remember sitting at my dinning room table and he said to me, "it doesn't really matter what we do, we are either chosen or not chosen and there's nothing we can do about that." After this man did this to his wife and kids, he went merrily along his way attending a different church.

 

I have another very long story, which involves myself being spied upon, talked about behind my back, and plotted against in order to separate myself from my best friend because of my "different" views about salvation and my bad influence on my friend. These people profess "faith alone" and "grace alone" and they often put their "grace alone" messages up on Facebook. Anything other than "grace alone" is unacceptable to them, and anyone who might influence another in a different direction must be put out from among them. That happened to be me.

 

So, now you have it. The whole reason why I put up this thread. I really dislike the whole grace alone idea. I also dislike the whole chosen by God idea. I think we people need to take ownership of our choices and decisions. We choose to follow Christ or not to with our actions. I believe our hearts and our minds are revealed by our actions. Our actions show ourselves and others what's really going on in our hearts and minds. I do not believe that what you "believe in your heart" can actually do anything to change how God looks at you. I believe that He looks at you with love - unfathomable love - no matter what you think or believe in your heart. What changes your salvation status or motion whether it's stagnant or moving toward God is how one responds to the Gospel. If one responds with obedience to what Jesus said he or she is going in the right direction. If one ignores or does the opposite of what Jesus said then one is stagnant or walking away. Every day we are either walking toward Christ, standing still, or walking away. It's a choice we have and it takes everything we have to make that movement happen. Now, when we move toward Christ I believe He helps us, and it's a mutual relationship. Our efforts are necessary, but not the cause for pride or boasting because whatever progress we can make is by the grace of God. I do believe in grace, but not grace alone.

 

Obviously, my thoughts are how I feel today, and I may change my mind as I learn more and read the Gospels more. So, I reserve the right to change my mind. I'm learning and unlearning. God help me.

 

First, the way people come to Christ is different for every single person. Some it's like getting hit by a truck, some it's a slow dwindling of information.

 

If you do come to Christ, not being physically baptized will not not get you into heaven. God looks at your heart not whether you've been dunked. Although as a man's view it an outward showing of our love for Christ.

 

Faith alone...obviously a strange way to put it. You must have it, you can't not have it. But the point is if you have faith, it leads you to all the other areas that come with it. If it doesn't, like I mentioned, it's not a "get out of jail free" card. If it's used in this way, you really don't have faith.

[milovany]

If you do come to Christ, not being physically baptized will not not get you into heaven. God looks at your heart not whether you've been dunked. Although as a man's view it an outward showing of our love for Christ.

 

Sure, God looks at the heart, but He also said to those wanting to join the church "be baptized." The vast majority of Christians in the world do not believe that baptism is an optional symbolic "outward showing of our love for Christ," but that through the sacrament of baptism we are washed of our sins and that through baptism we enter into the Church. The heart AND obeying God's commands are important and yes I think it will matter to God whether or not we did what He said we needed to do. That's not to say that not being baptized means you won't "get ... into heaven," it's to say that we oughtn't take God's commands as optional.

Edited December 16, 2011 by milovaný

[justamouse]

You know, Orthodoxy is the first place I've EVER experienced this. It is SO refreshing!

 

It's also within the RCC. It IS refreshing.

[Lovedtodeath]

Bill and alilac, why was Abraham justified, though he lived before Jesus' sacrifice?

 

Romans 3:

 

23 For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard. 24 Yet God, with undeserved kindness, declares that we are righteous. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins. 25 For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, 26 for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus.

Edited December 16, 2011 by Lovedtodeath

[MrsMe]

Sure, God looks at the heart, but He also said to those wanting to join the church "be baptized." The vast majority of Christians in the world do not believe that baptism is an optional symbolic "outward showing of our love for Christ," but that through the sacrament of baptism we are washed of our sins and that through baptism we enter into the Church. The heart AND obeying God's commands are important and yes I think it will matter to God whether or not we did what He said we needed to do. That's not to say that not being baptized means you will will not "get you into heaven," it's to say that we oughtn't take God's commands as optional.

 

I think this topic could fall under doctrinal, because the Bible does command it. I was baptized and wished to be, but the bible doesn't command it and using your argument, yes at what point would you consider certain things optional. I would assume one would want to. :tongue_smilie:

[Lovedtodeath]

Romans 4:12 And Abraham is also the spiritual father of those who have been circumcised. They can see from his example that it is not this ceremony that saves them, for Abraham found favor with God by faith alone, before he was circumcised. 13 Clearly, God’s promise to give the whole earth to Abraham and his descendants was based not on his obedience to God’s law, but on a right relationship with God that comes by faith.

 

Kai:

 

Romans 3:27 Can we boast, then, that we have done anything to be accepted by God? No, because our acquittal is not based on obeying the law. It is based on faith. 28 So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law. 29 After all, is God the God of the Jews only? Isn’t he also the God of the Gentiles? Of course he is. 30 There is only one God, and he makes people right with himself only by faith, whether they are Jews or Gentiles.[j] 31 Well then, if we emphasize faith, does this mean that we can forget about the law? Of course not! In fact, only when we have faith do we truly fulfill the law.

[JenniferB]

Lovedtodeath, I can't figure out what version of the Bible you are using for your prooftexts. Are you using different versions for different verses?

[Colleen in NS]

I think we people need to take ownership of our choices and decisions.

 

:iagree:

 

I like a lot of what you wrote, but I esp. agree with this.

 

ETA: lol about the "scripture volleyball" tag!

[LMA]

nt

[mommyrooch]

So let me get this straight--as long as you believe the right things, you can *behave* in evil ways and it's all good salvation-wise?

 

Maybe that explains the state of the world.

 

Absolutely not!! I am a Christian and I cannot even fathom this line of thinking. It is destructive to the faith. And yes, I do think that it helps to explain the state of the world. It is also one of the primary reasons why I think people fall away from God. The God I have come to know desires our hearts. He mourns for those whose hearts are hardened against their fellow man. He mourns for those whose hearts judge and condemn. He also mourns for those whose hearts lead them to do abominable things. Like murder.

 

Like Bill, I cannot accept a world and a lifestyle that equates murderers to liars. That is not just in my eyes. However, I do think it possible for both to become saved. I believe a murderer can inherit the kingdom but it is not in the form of a "get out of hell free" card. It is only possible if and when they turn their lives over to God. Once that happens, as I've said before, there will be a transformation of the heart, mind, body and soul!! That person will be transformed in such a way that their past sins (i.e. murder) will be vile to them. They will abhor their past action and they will detest the person that committed that act. They will fall to their knees in pain and regret from that past transgression. Their "heart" will be changed and they will wholeheartedly repent for that sin. It is at that time that God will forgive them because he will know their heart. He will know that the person that committed the murder is not the same person now. Their physical body is the same but their spirit and their heart are not. Because of this transformation and their repentance of their sins, God will forgive them and will judge them based on their hearts.

 

On the other side of the coin though, I also think that a liar will be judged by his heart. If a liar has a heart that is full of hatred and pride then he will be judged for that. If he "acts" in a moral manner, yet does not genuinely care about his fellow man then God will know the darkness that truly resides there and he will be judged on his heart. In other words, the liar will not only be judged by his actions. He will also be judged by his motives for those actions. It those actions were brought on by selfishness and greed then he will be judged for that. It they were brought on by love and compassion then he will be judged for that. In other words, it is not the action alone that God will judge. He will also judge the motives and desires behind the actions.

 

It is not a popular notion but I also think there will be people that inherit the kingdom who have never "literally been saved."

 

For example, take an impoverished mother living in a third world country. She has lived her life of love and compassion. She has honored life and fought to protect it. She has loved her children without ceasing. She has sacrificed for her fellow man. Yet, she never got the chance to "literally" know God. She was never taught about him and never got to accept him.

 

I do NOT believe that mother is going to hell!!! I cannot worship a God that would condemn someone based on their inability to know him. I don't think God will condemn her any more that I think he would condemn a mentally handicapped person whom cannot comprehend at a level necessary to "literally" make that choice.

 

Just like the liar and the murderer above, I believe that God will ultimately judge us based on our hearts. God will know that if that mother had been fortunate enough to "know" him personally, she would have given her life to him. In fact, I believe that she did know him and had him with her. She just couldn't identify him because she wasn't given the chance to learn who he was.

 

The Bible says that EVERY knee shall bow and EVERY tongue confess. I do believe that we will all ultimately have to either accept of reject God. I just believe that if we aren't given that chance here on Earth then we will be given the chance in Heaven. Otherwise, there would be many souls being condemned to hell simply because they were not fortunate enough to personally "know" God. At least according to how most Christians define "knowing."

 

I define knowing God as a person who's hearts and souls are filled with love, compassion, kindness, lack of pride, hated for evil, loathing for violence. A person who's heart does possess the love of God. They just don't know they do and can't literally define it.

 

On the other hand though, if a person does know about God and deliberately rejects or denies him then I believe they will be condemned for that.

 

Like I said, probably not a popular view. I'm sure I'll probably get reamed for it. No tomatoes my way please. :D I realize many will disagree. I just think that it's helpful to hear all views. For those trying to figure this out (which honestly is all of us) I think that it helps to understand that this (i.e salvation) is ultimately a personal walk we are walking and we must find the way that God has planned for us.

Edited December 16, 2011 by mommyrooch