Calling all competent math rogues: your prognosis humbly requested

[tristangrace]

This is long. Sorry.

 

Competent math rogues = those among us who find arithmetic/mathematics to be your natural element, such that you can teach your elementary children arithmetic without the aid of a formal math curriculum

 

Here’s the deal. I’m an intelligent person who took math in high school through pre-calc, “tested out†of math in my liberal college, and scored well on SAT maths. I also have strong logic/analytic skills. However, I am math phobic to a fairly intense degree. I tense up whenever presented with a math puzzle, I get flustered when my fourth-grader needs to know why we do a given procedure, and, sadly, I have tended to avoid much direct teaching of math to my kids, depending instead on the textbooks to teach them.

 

Recently, I’ve started reading stuff by Liping Ma and Marilyn Burns and realized that the math curriculum I’d chosen (Math-U-See) is similarly heavy on procedures and light on concepts—which I suspect is exactly how my education handicapped me. I’ve gotten some math “enrichment†materials with an eye toward continuing to use Math-U-See and supplementing with games and discussions and puzzles, but so far my efforts seem a little haphazard to me—we mostly continue to rely on Math-U-See, with some other stuff added on top.

 

My options moving forward seem to be: 1) continue with Math-U-See, anticipating that my kids will learn enough about math procedures and computation to get by in life but practically ensuring they will not flourish 2) switch to a curriculum that is more concept oriented (Saxon?) and hope for the best or 3) throw myself into the deep end by using the state math standards to determine the skills we need to learn and going from there—not using a given curriculum, but building what’s needed as we go.

 

It’s really this third option I’m considering. It seems like it could net the best results for all of us—it would mean that I’d have to learn things thoroughly myself—but it also seems fairly high risk. I’m afraid of biting off more than I can chew. So, for the people who know their stuff, are you able to give me any idea of what to expect, should I drop the curriculum and go for it?

[wapiti]

I vote for #2. There are a number of nice choices for teaching math conceptually, so many that some people even choose to use more than one at a time. Option #3, essentially inventing your own even though you have doubts about your own elementary education, doesn't seem like the most appropriate choice. I love math and feel very comfortable with it all, and I'd never go without a curriculum - there's no need to reinvent the wheel. However, that's not to say that I'm afraid to tweak or add in or teach in some other order - the curricula is a tool and I am not a slave to it. I probably wouldn't even come up with many of the ways that these curricula teach the concepts on my own and I'm not about to waste my time trying to invent ways unless my child still doesn't understand something in particular.

 

Somewhere there may be a list of more conceptual programs. (FWIW, I prefer to think of them as on a continuum from more conceptual to less conceptual, rather than in established categories.)

 

ETA, I'm sure others will share their opinions, but I think the more conceptual programs would include Singapore, MM and MEP.

Edited November 23, 2011 by wapiti

[blondeviolin]

I'd also vote for 2. While I LOVE math, I'd probably not make up my own curric because there are WONDERFUL ones out there and it'd be worth the money to not. Programs to look at include Math Mammoth, Miquon, Singapore Math and MEP.

[regentrude]

#2 Find a different curriculum.

 

 

or 3) throw myself into the deep end by using the state math standards to determine the skills we need to learn and going from there—not using a given curriculum, but building what’s needed as we go.

It’s really this third option I’m considering. It seems like it could net the best results for all of us—it would mean that I’d have to learn things thoroughly myself—but it also seems fairly high risk. I’m afraid of biting off more than I can chew. So, for the people who know their stuff, are you able to give me any idea of what to expect, should I drop the curriculum and go for it?

NO!!!!!! Do NOT try to "wing" it by looking at the standards and making up your own materials. It will take an incredible amount of time, and since you lack the math background you can not be sure to teach the concepts effectively, to design good problems that illustrate precisely the concept you intend them to teach, to progress in the right order. Making good problems is actually much more difficult than you would tend to believe, because they must introduce one skill at a time, progress from easier to harder, have enough variety for mastery.

When I started homeschooling, I actually tried to do this (because we were going to hs only for a few months). I have a PhD in theoretical physics and a strong math background, and I teach at a university. Despite this, I did not find it effective to piece together my curriculum from scratch. There are people who know how to teach math, which concepts must follow each other and what must be there as a basis before you can advance to the next step - and they have written books. Use them. And use the time you save to do something else.

Edited November 23, 2011 by regentrude

[ChrissySC]

I will toss my two cents in here too. I would tend to go with Saxon, but not because of concept. I vote Saxon because of the focus on computational skill and memorization. Both are key components to be successful with math. As well, I like the mastery approach and incremental development that are key components of Saxon.

 

I use Saxon and MM.

[justLisa]

Well, you don't have to be a genius or have gone to grad school and work in a math field to make math more interesting. DH is an architect so clearly he uses math every day and thankfully he takes care of the applied math.

 

I would suggest if you like the idea of reinforcing your own math skills AND coming up with a little on your own, get Math Mammoth! It is a fantastic curriculum. You can teach by unit rather than always go page by page. I have really found this to help my own math phobia. ON one hand it is fabulously complete, and on the other it is fairyl "plain" and leaves room for creativity.

[tristangrace]

Well, there seems to be a consensus building, which is helpful. :) Lots of recommendations for Math Mammoth, so I will investigate that one.

 

And I will happily take more suggestions!

 

Has anyone had success in recreating (or outsourcing) the collaboration/discussion approach that Burns and Ma keep talking about? Any of the national math tutoring programs (e.g., Kumon) offer anything like that?

[Five More Minutes]

I'd just like to throw Singapore Math (Standards Edition, with the HIG) out there as an option for curriculum.

 

If you've been reading Liping Ma and it's resonating with you, then SM is worth a look. I've found that using HIG helps me create the type of learning environment where my kiddos are solid understanding of mathematical concepts.

 

(FWIW, I would not categorize Saxon as more concept-oriented.)

[jennsmile]

This is my opinion take or leave it. But I attended a Marilyn Burns conference and it was very much here is the problem find the answer. While that is well and good at some point learning basic math has to happen. So don't throw out the baby with the bath water so to speak.

[Caribbean Queen]

How about making your own Kindergarten math program? I did it based on the goals in the book Home Learning Year By Year. It is easy for me to think of K math activities. It helps that I took college classes on how to teach children math. My children started Singapore Math 1A with no problems. You could educate yourself via the internet. Children learn a lot of K math through everyday life, so there isn't too much you need to teach.

 

As far as your older two children, I'll be frank;

You are biting off more than you can chew with option #3.

[kiana]

Yep. I really think winging it would be biting off more than you can chew.

 

However, relearning math (in a more conceptual way) a few years ahead of your kids, if you have time, will help you enrich and deepen any curriculum you're using.

[poetic license]

My background is similar to yours. I use a few different math programs (MEP, Miquon, Singapore, Math Mammoth) and whichever program you do use, I think an important facet of teaching your kids will be focusing on remediating your own math education. I'm doing this along with my son and it's enjoyable for me to go through the math education I wish I had.

[morosophe]

I, too, am using Math-U-See. I am planning on switching to The Art of Problem-Solving: Prealgebra when we finish the "elementary" MUS, and seeing how well my son does.

 

However, you might want to check out supplementing whatever you use with Kitchen Table Math; it apparently has several ways of explaining mathematical concepts. You can see what other posters have said about it.

[homefront]

I second checking out Kitchen Table Math. It might even out your current program.

[lauracolumbus]

Our histories sound identical. I went through pre-cal, and tested out of college math b/c I'm very analytical and good on standardized tests. I'm in over my head w/my oldest's math, and I wish I had more time to keep up w/him.

 

He's using Chalkdust and I try to watch the dvds w/him. This helps greatly, but I know at some point I'm not going to be able to help him.

 

My youngest is math gifted, so I'm using both MM and Saxon w/her. We don't do much math and I can do a lot of it orally w/her.

 

My middle is using Saxon along w/the Teacher cd and Art Reed's dvds. I try to watch Mr. Reed's dvds with her just so I know what she's doing. She's getting into murky waters as well, and I'm hoping what I learn from Chalkdust will transfer to her. I will probably keep her in Saxon b/c she thrives on his method.

 

I tried very hard to use SM (I still own most of it), but MM is so much easier to implement. It does get dd and me both thinking a bit out of the box, where as I think Saxon defined the box.

 

Laura

[sassenach]

I'd just like to throw Singapore Math (Standards Edition, with the HIG) out there as an option for curriculum.

 

If you've been reading Liping Ma and it's resonating with you, then SM is worth a look. I've found that using HIG helps me create the type of learning environment where my kiddos are solid understanding of mathematical concepts.

 

(FWIW, I would not categorize Saxon as more concept-oriented.)

 

:iagree:

 

The standards HIG is an education in itself. It's really changed the way I teach and understand math.

[letsplaymath]

Competent math rogues = those among us who find arithmetic/mathematics to be your natural element, such that you can teach your elementary children arithmetic without the aid of a formal math curriculum

 

Here’s the deal. I’m an intelligent person who took math in high school through pre-calc, “tested out†of math in my liberal college, and scored well on SAT maths. I also have strong logic/analytic skills. However, I am math phobic to a fairly intense degree. I tense up whenever presented with a math puzzle, I get flustered when my fourth-grader needs to know why we do a given procedure, and, sadly, I have tended to avoid much direct teaching of math to my kids, depending instead on the textbooks to teach them.

 

Recently, I’ve started reading stuff by Liping Ma and Marilyn Burns and realized that the math curriculum I’d chosen (Math-U-See) is similarly heavy on procedures and light on concepts—which I suspect is exactly how my education handicapped me. I’ve gotten some math “enrichment†materials with an eye toward continuing to use Math-U-See and supplementing with games and discussions and puzzles, but so far my efforts seem a little haphazard to me—we mostly continue to rely on Math-U-See, with some other stuff added on top.

 

My options moving forward seem to be: 1) continue with Math-U-See, anticipating that my kids will learn enough about math procedures and computation to get by in life but practically ensuring they will not flourish 2) switch to a curriculum that is more concept oriented (Saxon?) and hope for the best or 3) throw myself into the deep end by using the state math standards to determine the skills we need to learn and going from there—not using a given curriculum, but building what’s needed as we go.

 

It’s really this third option I’m considering. It seems like it could net the best results for all of us—it would mean that I’d have to learn things thoroughly myself—but it also seems fairly high risk. I’m afraid of biting off more than I can chew. So, for the people who know their stuff, are you able to give me any idea of what to expect, should I drop the curriculum and go for it?

 

I'm going to go against the crowd here. If it's the 3rd option that is calling your heart, and if you are willing to face down your math phobia and learn things along with your children, then I think you can do it. You do not need to make up your own curriculum from scratch, as others have (rightly) warned against. There are a lot of "math rogue" resources out there to help you!

 

Here are a few to get you started:

 

(1) Join the Living Math Forum. You'll find a lot of math rogues there who can give you good advice.

 

(2) Get the book Family Math. It has a nice variety of math rogue-y games and activities for all ages. And check out the math games and grade-level activities on my blog.

 

(3) Always, always, always ask WHY the things you learn in math work. Ask here, and ask at the Living Math Forum. And don't stop asking until you find someone who can explain it in a way that makes sense to YOU. It IS possible to make sense of the concepts, and when you see something, it will make you free. You don't have to be afraid of it anymore. This is the most important point: If you are going to embark on this track, then your new slogan has to be, "Know HOW, and also know WHY."

 

I haven't seen Kitchen Table Math, but from the reviews I've read, it may help build up the understanding you missed in school, so that you will be able to better explain things to your children. A good resource that I am familiar with is Elementary Mathematics for Teachers by Parker and Baldridge. If you want to work through that, the archives of the ProfoundUnderstanding Group might help you. (You can post questions there, too, but the group has been pretty quiet for several years. The archives go through most of the lessons in the book, though, with explanations and other tips.)

 

Your biggest problem, I think, with taking a math rogue approach is going to be keeping ahead of your oldest child. A 4th-grader is probably ready (or nearly there) for some heavier work with fractions, long division, decimals, and some of the other "math monsters" that will bring your math phobia front and center. You may find the Math Mammoth topical books a good supplement to your math rogue program, providing targeted practice on just the areas you need. Maria gives away a LOT of free samples, so you can get a good feel for how well you might like the books before you buy anything.

 

(4) And explore math in creative ways, too. Every math rogue knows that there's a whole lot more to math than just what the textbooks cover. Moebius Noodles will give you some good ideas for playing around with math in ways that lead to deeper understanding. (They don't have a whole lot going on at their website yet, though they have big plans. You can find more activities and ideas in the archive of the Moebius Noodles program from last summer.)

[Free]

Well, there seems to be a consensus building, which is helpful. :) Lots of recommendations for Math Mammoth, so I will investigate that one.

 

And I will happily take more suggestions!

 

Has anyone had success in recreating (or outsourcing) the collaboration/discussion approach that Burns and Ma keep talking about? Any of the national math tutoring programs (e.g., Kumon) offer anything like that?

 

I am reading through Marilyn Burns's About Teaching Mathematics right now and it has some wonderful ideas for activities, questions, etc. to stretch a child's mathematical thinking abilities. I plan to use an activity from there once a week.

 

That said, however, there are also a number of basic concepts and procedures to learn in Maths besides the problem solving and analytic skills. I feel the most effective way to teach these would be through using a curriculum. I use MEP which is available free online. It is a great program as it combines both teaching the regular concepts as well as making a child think creatively.

[FO4UR]

If MUS isn't causing pain and agony for anyone, I would keep MUS and *add* a more conceptual supplement. Then see where you are this summer, and maybe switch currics for the fall. Singapore, Math Mammoth, MEP, Miquon...:iagree: that there are too many great currics that have done all the hard work for you to try and wing it. (I considered winging it myself, after looking for a curric to fit one of my dc. I decided to keep a real curric going, adding in/tweaking for that child b/c it's just.too.much.work to create my own.)

 

 

Miquon would be easy to fit in around a full MUS lesson. Start from the simplest addition/subtraction with Miquon, if your dc are really lacking a conceptual understanding.

[serendipitous journey]

Seconding and thirding the posts to keep MUS if it mostly suits, and add other things. We've added Life of Fred (which now begins quite early, with Apples) on Fridays, and Primary Grade Challenge Math and Family Math on a flexible "schedule"; occasionally we pull in some Living Math materials (from livingmath.net).

 

Also, Button gets daily drills (some oral, some written, sometimes Wrap-Ups) and I've begun using bigger numbers for them. For example, on a day where we review "x 9" instead of just doing 3x9 I'll give him 30x9 or 3x900. For addition, "+ 7" becomes "26 + 7" or "256 + 7". This is helping his mental skills and his ability to generalize.

 

MUS has, to my mind, a lot going for it. It is very straightforward. Arithmetic is the least fun part of math, for me and for the mathematicians I know, so I like that Button can move through the arithmetic concepts at a good speed and we'll be able to do fun stuff sooner (like find the height of our house using its shadow, etc.): with MUS it is clear when we can just move on to the next topic. You may be better off switching, but do be careful not to toss the baby with the bathwater! :)

[mom31257]

Well I am a math person because I loved it enough to get a degree in it. If you are math-phobic, I don't think you should even consider the option of coming up with your own curriculum. I don't do that even with the math degree. I use BJU math with my youngest child, but only their 3rd editions.

 

Honestly, I don't get all the talk about conceptual math. Every math curricula I've seen seems to explain the "why" behind the problems. When I preview the programs listed, I think I see more math puzzles and things that involve doing math mentally, but that would be added in easily IMHO.

 

I guess I feel like I was instructed in the older, traditional methods and was able to get a degree in math, so it can't be that bad. Math is something that I totally understand, so I know I have an advantage over a lot of people.

[acurtis75]

Seconding and thirding the posts to keep MUS if it mostly suits, and add other things. We've added Life of Fred (which now begins quite early, with Apples) on Fridays, and Primary Grade Challenge Math and Family Math on a flexible "schedule"; occasionally we pull in some Living Math materials (from livingmath.net).

 

Also, Button gets daily drills (some oral, some written, sometimes Wrap-Ups) and I've begun using bigger numbers for them. For example, on a day where we review "x 9" instead of just doing 3x9 I'll give him 30x9 or 3x900. For addition, "+ 7" becomes "26 + 7" or "256 + 7". This is helping his mental skills and his ability to generalize.

 

MUS has, to my mind, a lot going for it. It is very straightforward. Arithmetic is the least fun part of math, for me and for the mathematicians I know, so I like that Button can move through the arithmetic concepts at a good speed and we'll be able to do fun stuff sooner (like find the height of our house using its shadow, etc.): with MUS it is clear when we can just move on to the next topic. You may be better off switching, but do be careful not to toss the baby with the bathwater! :)

 

I agree with this post. I am a little confused about why some people bash mus so much. I am a person who always did well in math and understood concepts easily. I don't think a child benefits from understanding concept if they can't do arithmetic. It's very similar in my mind to trying to teach creative writing before learning grammar, spelling, and good sentence construction. MUS provides a great foundation in basic math skills. I believe we're on a similar plan which involves accelerating it quite a bit. I like the ability to move at dd's pace.

[Vida Winter]

I have not used MUS so I can't comment on it - however you might be able to achieve what you are looking for by simply adding in math supplements. Part of the fun of math is learning to lighten up and have fun with it. Can you add some games? There are so many math games that could be enjoyed by you and your children. I have always enjoyed math games much the same way others enjoy crossword puzzles. Whenever you feel the "dread" coming on, investigate some ways to make it more fun for all of you. I mix things up so that my kids have about 60% traditionally taught math and 40% fun and interesting math. The methods complement each other.

[tristangrace]

Thanks much for the feedback and suggestions. I think we will continue on our current course (MUS with whatever supplements I can muster) until the end of our second quarter, and I can be brushing up on my own math skills and researching other options in the meantime with an eye toward switching the curriculum at that point.

 

Thanks for the recommendations of books for me to read--and keep 'em coming if you have more.