Is this normal?

[trlt]

My niece is in public school, grade 1. She just received her first report card and received an 'N' (needs improvement) in one category. Basically the children write sentences or words (not exactly sure on that) but they are not given the proper spelling and they are encouraged (well from what it sounds like they really have no choice) to just write it the way they think it is spelled or the way it sounds. They are then tested on how quickly they can read the words they wrote. My niece received the 'N' for this because she started out reading the words but then she couldn't understand/read what she wrote so she started sounding it out. The teacher told my sister that being able to read what she wrote quickly is more important than math or a reading program (I am assuming that means a proper program). Does this make sense at all? Is this something normal that they do in schools now? I don't understand what a first grader could possibly get out of writing words that are not spelled correctly and then getting graded on reading those incorrect words!

[boscopup]

That is really weird! I've not heard of that.

 

It's typical for schools to encourage "invented spelling". My son's Christmas list looks soooooooo much better this year than last year. Last year he was in school, using that invented spelling. This year, he asked me if he needed help on a word. Most of them, he was able to spell on his own by following some basic phonics rules. Huge difference!

 

I don't recall him ever being required to read his own invented spelling though. That is just really strange. I suppose they expect it to be phonetic, so technically, you should be able to read it. Like "I'm going to meet my friend at school today." could be written "Ime goyng tu mete my frend at skool tuday.", and it's technically phonetically readable. That's what the school is encouraging.

 

I still think invented spelling is stupid. Let's encourage kids to spell everything wrong so they can write 5 paragraph essays in 3rd grade (very poorly written ones), and later teach them to spell correctly, after they've already been spelling incorrectly for years. I lean more CM on this one... trying to avoid my child even seeing the word misspelled until he has learned to spell it correctly. But the schools couldn't do all that creative writing if they focused on correct spelling first.

[Ellie]

:blink:

 

I don't know if it's "normal" or not. It could be. Public schools have a really lousy track record in teaching their students to be literate. In fact, the teacher herself is probably a product of substandard public schools--and colleges, apparently--and doesn't know any better, bless her heart.

 

IMHO, the sooner your sister gets her dd out of that school, the better.

[Roadrunner]

That is strange, really strange.

They have weekly spelling lists at school and the kids are expected to spell correctly words they learned when writing any assignment. They are allowed to make mistakes on the rest though.

[acurtis75]

It's typical for schools to encourage "invented spelling". .

 

I really don't get the concept of invented spelling. I don't understand how one could possibly see any benefit in letting children write things down incorrectly. I guess if you're teaching 30 kids at a time you can't correct everyone as they go but this idea still seems very stupid to me.

[leeannpal]

I really don't get the concept of invented spelling. I don't understand how one could possibly see any benefit in letting children write things down incorrectly. I guess if you're teaching 30 kids at a time you can't correct everyone as they go but this idea still seems very stupid to me.

 

Children at the first grade level need to learn the physical act of writing first. Teaching spelling before a child can write words/sentences is putting the cart before the horse. Since most of you here are homeschoolers, you may have the time to do both. Obviously, in a classroom with many children, that isn't the case.

 

My daughter is in 3rd grade in a private school.I fully understood the concept of invented spelling in kindergarten and first grade. The writing process is much more important at this stage. Oh, she did have spelling words and easy spelling tests in first grade, but the teacher, rightly so, did not expect every sentence to be written with perfect spelling. There has been a lot of misinformation out there about what invented spelling really is. In reality it is allowing the child to write without the added burden of worrying if you spelled a workd correctly in first grade.

[Walking-Iris]

I can see invented spelling being okay at the early learning stages---pre-k and K---when a child is playing around with letters and sounds. Usually when my 4 year old writes a "word" and then tells me what it says I beam with pride. I don't say it's spelled wrong....because at that age they are experimenting. But when learning how to read and then spell in 1st grade---no. The time has come to show them the correct way that our language is constructed in phonological parts.

 

It's ridiculous to try to teach a kid to read things spelled wrong---because it's wrong!!!! I say that teacher and school gets a N---needs improvement!:001_huh:

 

I also wanted to add that I don't stress too much when my ds spells things wrongly in his journal or free time writing. But I make it up in our spelling and writing instruction time.

Edited November 12, 2011 by Walking-Iris

[boscopup]

Children at the first grade level need to learn the physical act of writing first. Teaching spelling before a child can write words/sentences is putting the cart before the horse. Since most of you here are homeschoolers, you may have the time to do both. Obviously, in a classroom with many children, that isn't the case.

 

Well, the reason they have this need for invented spelling is that they have the children writing original sentences waaaaay earlier than it used to be done. A classroom could use copywork and dictation just like people used to, but no, they want 5 paragraph essays in 3rd grade, and to get that quantity of writing, they have to get the kids writing full paragraphs in first grade, even though the kids can't spell yet.

 

It's the quality vs. quantity thing. Schools have chosen quantity, and invented spelling falls out of that. If they slowed down the writing process and focused on basic skills early on (which CAN be done in a classroom - it was done for many years very successfully!), there would be no need for encouraging invented spelling.

[TheAutumnOak]

Well, the reason they have this need for invented spelling is that they have the children writing original sentences waaaaay earlier than it used to be done. A classroom could use copywork and dictation just like people used to, but no, they want 5 paragraph essays in 3rd grade, and to get that quantity of writing, they have to get the kids writing full paragraphs in first grade, even though the kids can't spell yet.

 

It's the quality vs. quantity thing. Schools have chosen quantity, and invented spelling falls out of that. If they slowed down the writing process and focused on basic skills early on (which CAN be done in a classroom - it was done for many years very successfully!), there would be no need for encouraging invented spelling.

 

:iagree: With all of what was said...I wouldn't use invented spelling to teach my boys...School has changed a lot since I was a student :huh:

[acurtis75]

Well, the reason they have this need for invented spelling is that they have the children writing original sentences waaaaay earlier than it used to be done. A classroom could use copywork and dictation just like people used to, but no, they want 5 paragraph essays in 3rd grade, and to get that quantity of writing, they have to get the kids writing full paragraphs in first grade, even though the kids can't spell yet.

 

It's the quality vs. quantity thing. Schools have chosen quantity, and invented spelling falls out of that. If they slowed down the writing process and focused on basic skills early on (which CAN be done in a classroom - it was done for many years very successfully!), there would be no need for encouraging invented spelling.

 

:iagree: You answered exactly the way I would have. I think not having time to do things properly is not a good reason for teaching methods that don't work well. I teach Sunday School in a mixed age group class with ps, private school & homeschooled children. The children that are past 3rd and 4th grade still seem to have horrible spelling even after they have formal spelling. These are excellent students who make all A's in school including spelling. They can spell their spelling list words for the week and that's it. Allowing children to write things incorrectly for 3 years and then trying to correct it is not a good teaching methodology. Of course I also think grammar should be correct in writing which is why we do copywork and dictation.

[cin]

When I did my student teaching some 25 years ago :blink: The Whole Language method was brand new. Invented Spelling was used so the kids could focus on the writing process instead of worrying about the individual words. This was in 1st grade. And the teacher, while doing her job and teaching the curriculum, told me it was a crock of ..... She was an older teacher and had taught elementary for close to 20 years, and she could see the writing on the wall (no pun intended!) I think of her often as I read stories about illiterate students and the decline of the public schools.

[twoxcell]

Children at the first grade level need to learn the physical act of writing first. Teaching spelling before a child can write words/sentences is putting the cart before the horse. Since most of you here are homeschoolers, you may have the time to do both. Obviously, in a classroom with many children, that isn't the case.

 

That is what copywork is for.;)

[Samiam]

Children at the first grade level need to learn the physical act of writing first. Teaching spelling before a child can write words/sentences is putting the cart before the horse. Since most of you here are homeschoolers, you may have the time to do both. Obviously, in a classroom with many children, that isn't the case.

 

My daughter is in 3rd grade in a private school. In reality it is allowing the child to write without the added burden of worrying if you spelled a workd correctly in first grade.

 

Wow! That statement really doesn't make sense. You say children at 1st grade level need to learn the physical act of writing before worrying about spelling, then say we homeschoolers, apparently which you are not (???), must have the time to do both, teach the physical act of writing and spelling. So are you saying it's just all about the clock, just about having time?? So in reality, if a public school had TIME to do that for each student, that WOULD be their preferred method, is that what you are saying?

 

As a matter of fact, most of us homeschoolers are well aware of the need to be able to physically write before learning about spelling. Many of us use copywork for this purpose. Students write real words that are spelled correctly, not their own compositions, but beautiful writings by others, that are almost works of art. The point is to practice handwriting, while seeing correctly spelled words, correct grammar, correct punctuation.

 

Continually spelling a word incorrectly makes a imprint into a child's mind, they'll have to work harder to overcome that picture of the misspelled word.

[leeannpal]

It might not make sense to someone who has never taught in a classroom setting.

 

No, I am not homeschooling yet. I will be next year. Right now, I am a middle school teacher at a private school.

 

Copy work is not generallly used in public or private schools unless the school is classically oriented. Therefore, the young students do need a period of time to learn the process of writing. Most first graders are going to spell quite a number of words wrong. My daughter did. But she also did spelling lists and spelling rules during first grade. She is a great speller today. Writing a few words inventively at that age didn't hurt her ability to learn to spell in the least.

[mrs.m]

Continually spelling a word incorrectly makes a imprint into a child's mind, they'll have to work harder to overcome that picture of the misspelled word.

 

I've struggled with this idea and wonder if this is actually an accurate statement. My DD was a terrible speller in the early years at PS. Her teachers would tell me not to worry about it beause it would correct itself as she got older. We were fortunate that is exactly what happened. (we homeschool now but she went until 3rd grade) Her reading level increased and with that I saw an increase in spelling. And it seemed like less of a struggle to teach her spelling rules in 5th grade than I'm dealing with when it comes to my 3rd grader.

 

I'm not saying that I agree with the (anti-spelling?) philosophy in full. But when my 1st grader writes on his own for fun, I don't go back and correct his spelling. I also won't tell him that he may not write because he can't spell yet. I'm not willing to squash his desire to play with the letters to get his creativity on paper because I think it is a great thing that he wants to write. If I jump in and fuss about spelling, I know he will stop the silly stories and the creative writing. He always spells Sonic as "Sonick" because he is following the rule he knows. But he spells purple, "perpul" because he has no rule reference. I seriously doubt he will always spell it incorrectly. ;)

 

So I'm not sure that mispelling words early on creates something difficult to overcome as long as spelling rules are eventually taught. The last part of the statement is the most important. ;)

Edited November 12, 2011 by jannylynn

[missiemick]

I would ask the teacher for the rubric that was used to determine the 'N' rating. Then I would ask how it lines up with the state and local standards. I bet she can't do it.

[boscopup]

Copy work is not generallly used in public or private schools unless the school is classically oriented.

 

For many, many, many years, copywork was used in schools. Multiple children would be up at the chalk board doing their copywork. I should dig up the book someone found that talked about teaching writing in the early 1900s (I think it was). It was very eye opening for me. They had children able to write a pretty good amount, but they did so without journaling and inventive spelling. They used copywork and a chalk board. The kids did a LOT at the chalk board before working much at their own desk.

 

It can be done. Just because it isn't done by most public schools today doesn't mean that it can't.

[RootAnn]

I've struggled with this idea and wonder if this is actually an accurate statement. My DD was a terrible speller in the early years at PS. Her teachers would tell me not to worry about it beause it would correct itself as she got older. We were fortunate that is exactly what happened. (we homeschool now but she went until 3rd grade) Her reading level increased and with that I saw an increase in spelling. And it seemed like less of a struggle to teach her spelling rules in 5th grade than I'm dealing with when it comes to my 3rd grader.

 

I'm not saying that I agree with the (anti-spelling?) philosophy in full. But when my 1st grader writes on his own for fun, I don't go back and correct his spelling. I also won't tell him that he may not write because he can't spell yet. I'm not willing to squash his desire to play with the letters to get his creativity on paper because I think it is a great thing that he wants to write. If I jump in and fuss about spelling, I know he will stop the silly stories and the creative writing. He always spells Sonic as "Sonick" because he is following the rule he knows. But he spells purple, "perpul" because he has no rule reference. I seriously doubt he will always spell it incorrectly. ;)

 

So I'm not sure that mispelling words early on creates something difficult to overcome as long as spelling rules are eventually taught. The last part of the statement is the most important. ;)

 

IMO, it depends on if your child has a strong visual memory or is visual in their learning style. My kids aren't, so it doesn't really matter how many times they see a word spelled correctly or incorrectly. It matters for some, however.

 

My oldest went through a huge Trixie Belden phase. She read all but three of the series (which I couldn't/wouldn't get because they were $$$$) over & over again one summer. Trixie's best friend is named Honey. Guess what word she couldn't spell correctly all year long, even though she must have read it thousands of times that summer?

 

My dd#2 can write "said" as "sed" multiple times per page even though I'll stop her each time and spell it out properly, correct her, talk through WHY it is spelled that way, and she can explain that it is the "past tense" form of "say" which uses AY-two-letter-A etc.... Doesn't seem to matter. I'm sure it'll click soon. *wrings hands quietly*

[MerryAtHope]

It sounds like "invented spelling" taken to a new extreme! I'd hate that method (and I think it would really set some kids up for failure). Maybe your sister can homeschool?!

[creekster519]

Continually spelling a word incorrectly makes a imprint into a child's mind, they'll have to work harder to overcome that picture of the misspelled word.

 

:iagree:My son was in PS through 2nd grade. He spelled words wrong so many times that now the wrong way looks correct to him. We started from the beginning in AAS and his spelling is gradually getting better but it's been a struggle.

[trlt]

Thanks for all the replies. Right now I don't think my sister is really entertaining the idea of homeschooling because she feels she would fail her daughter. I disagree that invented spelling is beneficial but the huge problem I have is that she is receiving a grade for being able to read these words that are spelled incorrectly. That is a bigger issue to me. I honestly feel that saying this is going to teach them to write better is just insane. My daughter is two years younger than my niece and can already write better sentences and spell words that my niece has no clue how to spell. I agree with comment that it is quantity over quality. I also want to point out that it brings my niece to tears that her teacher will not tell her how to spell a word correctly. She WANTS to learn how to spell things correctly. Also, to grade a child on this is completely wrong!

[MerryAtHope]

Thanks for all the replies. Right now I don't think my sister is really entertaining the idea of homeschooling because she feels she would fail her daughter.

 

Does she really think she'd do WORSE than what the school is doing to her right now (not teaching her and leaving her in tears?)

 

(((Hugs)))

[ChandlerMom]

Sounds to me like the usual problem of the ps system (and teacher in this case) using a one-size-fits-all model to evaluate diverse kids. It ignored the differences in how kids think and learn. To say that playing their reindeer games is more important than learning to read or math is asinine, imo.

 

If it were my kid, I would first ask the teacher WHY it is so important and HOW that metric meshes with my child's learning style. I agree with asking for the specific rubric and State standards, preferably in writing. I doubt I'd get any satisfactory answer, just the presumption that all kids have to learn the same way. Then I'd go to my child and tell them not to worry, explain sometimes adults like her teacher get these crazy notions on how to do things and we just have to humor them, and maybe make a game phonetically sounding out words. Tell dc that when she doesn't know how to spell something, just write how it sounds and underline and you will spell it together when she gets home.

 

Or I'd just tell dc to write "cat" every time she doesn't know a word, and when asked what she wrote to say "why, cat of course!" I'd also tell the teacher I was instructing ym child to do this and if they had a problem with that to have the principal give me a call. Perhaps the principal would be able to explain why it was ok for a teacher to make a child cry by refusing to TEACH her to spell. ;)

Edited November 13, 2011 by ChandlerMom

[MerryAtHope]

I've struggled with this idea and wonder if this is actually an accurate statement. My DD was a terrible speller in the early years at PS. Her teachers would tell me not to worry about it beause it would correct itself as she got older. We were fortunate that is exactly what happened. (we homeschool now but she went until 3rd grade) Her reading level increased and with that I saw an increase in spelling. And it seemed like less of a struggle to teach her spelling rules in 5th grade than I'm dealing with when it comes to my 3rd grader.

 

There are a couple of things at play here. One, there's a difference between children writing in the early grades using whatever spelling means they are aware of (any phonics or rules they have learned to that point), and invented spelling as a specific method of teaching. It sounds from your description that while your dd was asked to write, her teachers also worked to give some kind of spelling instruction. That is not always the case with teachers promoting invented spelling (sometimes it's quite the opposite, and spelling instruction is dropped entirely). More on Invented Spelling.

 

Two, your daughter became a better speller as she read more. Good spellers are almost always good readers, but many good readers are not good spellers. In other words--the benefits you saw from her reading impacting her spelling is not the case for many students.

 

The more I think through what the OP's sister's school is doing, the more insane it seems to me. I've not seen good proof that a purposeful invented spelling approach makes better writers in the end. I have seen kids who are more willing to write and who will write longer, after having a good number of spelling words under their belt. It can really generate confidence and fluency for them to not have to stop and think through what letters might possibly represent a word, for each and every word they can think of. Even if they are not trying to focus on correct spelling--to try to come up with *any* letters each time takes more work than it does to write words that have been learned. I'm not sure invented spelling achieves the goals it is supposed to achieve in helping kids write more.

 

But to then imprint those invented spellings even more by having a child read them...I can't think how they would believe this is really the method to go about creating fluid readers and writers. It just doesn't make sense!

 

Merry :-)

Edited November 13, 2011 by MerryAtHope

[Samiam]

It might not make sense to someone who has never taught in a classroom setting.

 

 

What would make you think that I've never taught in a classroom setting? There are actually many, many HSing moms here at WTM forums and many that I've met in real life that used to be teachers in a class setting. Actually, it's usually a mitigating factor in why they started HSing. As a matter of fact, for several years of our HSing journey, I've taught in a classroom setting, every Friday.

 

Good luck on your new journey into HSing. You'll probably laugh at this thread in a year or two. I know I look back at my posts when I first started here, my first year of HSing, and think how mired in the school system my brain was.

 

I don't think it is a horrible thing to let a child attempt to spell on their own. I don't think any great travesty is done if a child picks up a pencil and decides to write a story, and wants to spell words they've never been taught, and end up writing "cat'', as "kat". Doesn't every child do that in those first few years of learning to write and read? But that is completely different than what is being described as happening in these classrooms. A student is wanting to spell the words correctly, is asking how to spell the words, and is being told to figure it out on their own. Not once, but as a normal everyday protocol. With no effort to ever correct that, until later grades. Or worse yet, the child doesn't ask for help, perhaps thinks they ARE spelling it correctly, and the teacher never bothers to correct that thought. That just can not be justified as "they just don't have time in a classroom to teach them any better" which is what was essentially stated.

[happycc]

have kids keep journals (yes even in K )....of course isn;t copywork-and inventive spelling occurs

they also have to keep literature response journals-again inventive spelling occurs

they also have writing prompts as well-again inventive spelling occurs

they also have to keep writing and math notebooks -yes in K and inventive spelling occurs

they also have them write animal reports in K -again inventive spelling occurs

 

 

it is really hard to homeschool purely classically through a charter school as they require you to do writing prompts twice a year. So really you do have to get them to use inventive spelling...grrrr.

 

I agree that a child with a strong visual memory could end up being a good speller just by reading a lot. I have one like that.

But many of mine are clueless even if they had come across that word a million times. They got to build it, talk about, get a rule, copy it a million times before it sinks in.

[mrs.m]

There are a couple of things at play here. One, there's a difference between children writing in the early grades using whatever spelling means they are aware of (any phonics or rules they have learned to that point), and invented spelling as a specific method of teaching. It sounds from your description that while your dd was asked to write, her teachers also worked to give some kind of spelling instruction. That is not always the case with teachers promoting invented spelling (sometimes it's quite the opposite, and spelling instruction is dropped entirely). More on Invented Spelling.

Merry :-)

 

I think I'm just trying to make the OP feel like it could turn out ok in the end. :grouphug:

 

DD was coming directly from Invented Spelling methods as described in the link. They dropped spelling all together and said it would be formally taught as word study in 3rd grade. It certainly did not make her a better writer and she was blissfully unaware that she was mispelling words while still somehow mixing in correct spellings from the sight words they were required to know for reading. Fortunately, it wasn't hard to get her back on track in the upper grades when we started to home school. I can't say how the other kids following that track turned out. :(

 

And I see how that is slightly different from what my DS is doing with his 6yo creative writing and interesting letter combinations. But I hope that with proper phonics instruction a very young child can spell many words incorrectly and still recover. But then again, we use AAS, so I'm sure we have it covered. ;)

[kwg]

When I taught first grade we used inventive spelling too for many of the reasons already mentioned. I did not use it with my ds, mainly b/c he was not buying it. He really took off with his reading quickly and knew words did not look right. I kinda figured since there was only one of him I could help him spell. He hates writing though :(.

 

In class we used a word wall. DO they have anything like that- High frequency words the children could reference for spelling purposes? If not maybe your niece could make her own dictionary with mom's help? SOmething like this (but cheaper....:D) where you put a word and pic on each card....if she added to it slowly (we did a few words a week) she could have a good list and maybe it would reassure her when she was writing that some are definitly spelled correctly and she can ask mom to add to it when she got home. I can see why she would want spelling instruction.

 

To me, it makes sense that she would have to sound the word out again b/c it isn't the actual word :confused: I think I would ask the teacher about that. It doesn't make sense-to me- how that can be more important that reading actual words. If she does ask, could you update? I am very curious now!

[beaners]

I probably wouldn't freak out about a single "needs improvement" on an elementary report card. I do think the technique of writing words without knowing how they are spelled is unhelpful. If she can't do something that the classroom requires, she really does need improvement in that area, right? I've seen a few good ideas for correcting spelling trouble mentioned already. I'd bet using one or two of those would help build confidence and improve spelling. :001_smile: