Gifted or Asperger?

[SpreadingtheFeast]

My boys are in the process of getting diagnosed. They both show signs of Asperger (confirmed by specialist) and giftedness. They both have speech delays, they stim, get upset when they haven't got anything to do, need their educational time everyday, line up toys, don't pretend play, argue all the time, have no social skills, talk all the time, laugh when inappropriate, work far above their grade level etc.

 

How can I tell the difference between giftedness and Asperger? When is a child gifted anyway? I guess I'm just trying to figure out what I'm dealing with here...

[JenneinCA]

It could be both.

 

Gifted is currently defined as getting a certain score (or more) on an intelligence test. Asperger's is a diagnosis on the autism spectrum. I don't know how that is defined but it is probably getting a certain score on some other test or group of tests.

 

I could easily see a child (or adult) doing both.

[alisonslp]

It really depends on how gifted they are. The high level 4 - 5 gifted toddlers often present as if they have Aspergers because they are so intent on reading, numbers, conversing with adults (over children), having no desire to play like typical kids. As they get into the pre-school and elementary years, it becomes more obvious if they are just gifted or gifted and have Aspergers. The solely gifted ones will have much better pragmatic (social) skills. Solely gifted children usually don't have the patterns that kids on the spectrum have like lining up toys, the need for routines and schedules, stimming (unless they are hyper as well), using social scripting to get through conversations.

 

I am curious about your description though. What exactly do you mean by a speech delay? You say that they talk all the time. I ask because one of the criteria for Aspergers is early language development. And most of these kids have good speech production skills as well. Now, their social language skills are particularly disordered but the general public doesn't usually consider that as a language issue, even though it technically is and is treated by a speech therapist. They usually think of it more as social skills.

 

 

With some behaviors, it is really hard to tweek out which is which, because as you get high on the gifted spectrum, there are more instances of kids having more sensory and autistic behaviors, even if they are not labeled as such. But i am not sure it really matters. The goal is usually to focus on what the child needs to be successful in his environment and adjust these goals as he/she grows.

[melmichigan]

The best resource I have found is here, Giftedness and Asperger's Syndrome: A New Agenda for Education , especially the tables. :)

[Barbara H]

You might find these resources helpful.

 

http://www.eric.ed.gov/PDFS/EJ860954.pdf

 

http://www.amazon.com/Misdiagnosis-Diagnoses-Gifted-Children-Adults/dp/0910707677/ref=tmm_pap_title_0/175-4207128-0638224

[lewelma]

The simplest differentiator I have read recommends evaluating the following:

 

Can your child interact "normally" with another child when discussing a passion they both share? An aspergers child would not be able to, because they are handicapped in all social situations. However, a gifted child often has no true peers that share his passion, so you don't see the "normal" behavior very often.

 

Ruth in NZ

[Julie of KY]

... after undergoing lots of testing, the specialist says my son looks Aspergerish because of his giftedness. I'm sure most gifted people don't look like Asperger's, but he sure does... doesn't meet the diagnosis as he is too aware of his feelings.

[alisonslp]

... I'm sure most gifted people don't look like Asperger's, but he sure does... doesn't meet the diagnosis as he is too aware of his feelings.

 

 

Lots of kids with AS are very aware of their feelings. They just don't know how to handle and express them appropriately. They also have trouble reading others' feelings

[8filltheheart]

The simplest differentiator I have read recommends evaluating the following:

 

Can your child interact "normally" with another child when discussing a passion they both share? An aspergers child would not be able to, because they are handicapped in all social situations. However, a gifted child often has no true peers that share his passion, so you don't see the "normal" behavior very often.

 

Ruth in NZ

 

... after undergoing lots of testing, the specialist says my son looks Aspergerish because of his giftedness. I'm sure most gifted people don't look like Asperger's, but he sure does... doesn't meet the diagnosis as he is too aware of his feelings.

 

Both of the bolded are false. Our Aspie can discuss fairly normally a common passion (xbox games, for example. That is true of all of the Aspies in his group. What they do lack is the longer term ability to tell when another person has had enough of their talking and would like a turn or a change in topic) . And believe me, he is very aware of his feelings. He isn't adapt at correctly recognizing the feelings and attitudes of others, but he dwells in his own feelings.

 

As far as distinguishing between gifted and Aspergers, if the 2 don't actually co-exist, I think if you have been around an Aspie long enough you can distinguish the difference. My dd has an 8 yo friend that is profoundly gifted and while her behaviors are not "normal" like typical 8 yr old girls, she is most definitely NOT an Aspie. I know people that have quietly suggested to me that they think she is on the spectrum, but she is simply unable to relate to the other kids on the same level in most cases. She can engage perfectly normally w/adults and when playing strategy games, etc. She is not disabled in the same way as our adult Aspie.

 

FWIW, our ds's traits have only become more and more pronounced as he has gotten older. For example, sitting in church I have no doubt that anyone near us can tell he isn't normal just from simple observation. He picks his fingers constantly. He wants to constantly hug me and our toddler. He will mess w/the toddler even though she is telling him not to b/c he is only focused on the fact that he wants to hold her regardless of the "obvious to everyone else" fact that she doesn't want him to. He doesn't notice when his shirt is on backward or his collar is flipped inside. He doesn't notice if ketchup has dripped down his chin and is all over his shirt. But.......he pretty much makes straight As at the community college. He is smart academically and extremely low functioning in reality.

 

When he was little (he is now almost 20), he was extremely hyper but had a heart of gold. He was very quick to learn just about anything and could be doing 2 different things while looking like he wasn't paying any attention, yet he could repeat back word for word what was being said around him. He has almost a photographic memory (which is why he does so well in school.) His abnormal behaviors that could be sort of explained away by "immaturity" or "quirks" when he was little are hugely apparent and abnormal in an adult.

 

I have no idea if any of that helps or not. :tongue_smilie:

Edited November 12, 2011 by 8FillTheHeart

[Crimson Wife]

I recently read Bright Not Broken: Gifted Kids, ADHD, and Autism by Diane Kennedy, Rebecca Banks, and Temple Grandin for Amazon Vine. The link to my review is here.

[kdeno]

:grouphug:

[SpreadingtheFeast]

Wow, thank you for the links. I'll have a good look at them.

 

I am curious about your description though. What exactly do you mean by a speech delay? You say that they talk all the time. I ask because one of the criteria for Aspergers is early language development. And most of these kids have good speech production skills as well. Now, their social language skills are particularly disordered but the general public doesn't usually consider that as a language issue, even though it technically is and is treated by a speech therapist. They usually think of it more as social skills.

 

They both were late talkers. They don't talk to strangers, or only in a very silly way. They don't pronounce there words properly (they seem to be in a hurry :lol:).

[SpreadingtheFeast]

The simplest differentiator I have read recommends evaluating the following:

 

Can your child interact "normally" with another child when discussing a passion they both share? An aspergers child would not be able to, because they are handicapped in all social situations. However, a gifted child often has no true peers that share his passion, so you don't see the "normal" behavior very often.

 

Ruth in NZ

 

No they can't.

 

So can they be both? Gifted and Asperger?

[SpreadingtheFeast]

He picks his fingers constantly. He wants to constantly hug me and our toddler. He will mess w/the toddler even though she is telling him not to b/c he is only focused on the fact that he wants to hold her regardless of the "obvious to everyone else" fact that she doesn't want him to. He doesn't notice when his shirt is on backward or his collar is flipped inside. He doesn't notice if ketchup has dripped down his chin and is all over his shirt.

 

This is my 4 yr old! :lol: I hope that indeed it will become more obvious as he gets older, as this is quite normal 4yr old behavior as well.

[8filltheheart]

This is my 4 yr old! :lol: I hope that indeed it will become more obvious as he gets older, as this is quite normal 4yr old behavior as well.

 

I know you didn't mean anything by your post, but I would suggest you reflect on it if you want to understand my post.

 

It isn't at all funny to see those behaviors in a 20 yr old. But those are common realistic behaviors in Aspies. Our ds is the highest functioning Aspie in his college group. The rest are not in the high academic realm and are all in remedial courses. The portrayal of Aspies as being simply "the absent-minded professor" is false. Our ds is disabled and will most likely not live a "normal" adult life.

[SpreadingtheFeast]

I know you didn't mean anything by your post, but I would suggest you reflect on it if you want to understand my post.

 

It isn't at all funny to see those behaviors in a 20 yr old. But those are common realistic behaviors in Aspies. Our ds is the highest functioning Aspie in his college group. The rest are not in the high academic realm and are all in remedial courses. The portrayal of Aspies as being simply "the absent-minded professor" is false. Our ds is disabled and will most likely not live a "normal" adult life.

 

Hi, I'm sorry about my comment. I didn't mean anything with it. I got a bit distracted I guess when I tried to get all the quotes in one post, which obviously didn't work. I somehow totally missed the part that your child is 20yrs old and understand that the behaviors I find quite funny with my 4yr old are not funny in a 20yr old, and I guess reality still needs to hit me: that your story could be mine in 16 yrs time. I'm sorry if my comment hurt you in any way.

[8filltheheart]

Hi, I'm sorry about my comment. I didn't mean anything with it. I got a bit distracted I guess when I tried to get all the quotes in one post, which obviously didn't work. I somehow totally missed the part that your child is 20yrs old and understand that the behaviors I find quite funny with my 4yr old are not funny in a 20yr old, and I guess reality still needs to hit me: that your story could be mine in 16 yrs time. I'm sorry if my comment hurt you in any way.

 

Oh, no, you misunderstood me. Your comment didn't hurt me in any way.....I am far beyond that.......I wasn't thinking about myself in my reply at all. Unfortunately, I was thinking about you. Our Aspie has caused tremendous suffering in our family. His teenage yrs are yrs that I don't even like to think about. Every individual is different w/different expressions of the syndrome. Unfortunately, our ds became violent as a teenager. Not all Aspies are violent like our ds was during puberty, but some are. (it is one of those topics that gets "swept under the rug" in discussions about Aspergers.)

 

When he was little, he had a heart of gold, was incredibly tender and sweet. By the time he was 12, he was extremely OCD and more rigid in scheduling. By the time he was 14, he became violent whenever we interfered w/his current obsession. (he had obsessions on everything from Phantom of the Opera, of all things, to manga to drawing to Legos.) We even had to have him committed to the psy hospital at one pt.

 

Now that his hormones aren't raging anymore, he is a much calmer person. However, he is in a very hard place. He knows what he wants in life.....normal things like a girlfriend, career, marriage, family. He is so high functioning that he wants those things and doesn't understand why girls constantly reject him. He is in that spot where he suffers......if he were lower functioning, he wouldn't be as aware; if he were higher functioning his disability would be less immediately obvious.

 

If you think your child has Aspergers, seek evaluations and don't just try to diagnose on your own. If you get told that is not what your child has and you aren't positive, seek 2nd opinions. It took us 4 yrs to get an accurate diagnosis for our ds. We had so many wrong ones I had basically given up hope of ever receiving the right one. (ETA: committing him into the psy ward was the best decision we ever made b/c they are the ones that steered us in the correct direction b/c finally professionals were around him long enough (in a constant way) to recognize just how inaccurate the majority of his labels were......something that we had been arguing about for yrs.) He was labeled everything from OCD, ADHD (true), ODD, CD, bipolar (all not true), high anxiety (very true), to finally Aspergers (which is the only label that fits all of his issues.)

 

Sorry to get so long. I didn't mean to become so explicit. We have had a really bad month w/him and right now I am really discourage about his future. I am simply at a pt where nothing is :lol: in terms of discussing Aspergers. And I get really, really, really, really annoyed by the number of posts that make it sound like intelligent Aspies are simply quirky and can be extremely successful phDs w/just being pointed in the right direction. Maybe a small % can just like w/in the regular population. However, it is a spectrum disorder and you are going to find a broad range of skills/issues. W/our ds when he was in his teens, even w/all of his emotional garbage, it never occurred to us just how limited his future was going to be b/c he is so dang smart. But, it takes far more than intelligence to function as an adult.

 

:tongue_smilie: I'll stop ranting now.

Edited November 12, 2011 by 8FillTheHeart

[TechWife]

So can they be both? Gifted and Asperger?

 

Yes.

[happycc]

Oh, no, you misunderstood me. Your comment didn't hurt me in any way.....I am far beyond that.......I wasn't thinking about myself in my reply at all. Unfortunately, I was thinking about you. Our Aspie has caused tremendous suffering in our family. His teenage yrs are yrs that I don't even like to think about. Every individual is different w/different expd in the right direction. Maybe a small % can just like w/in the regular population. However, it is a spectrum disorder and you are going to find a broad range of skills/issues. W/our ds when he was in his teens, even w/all of his emotional garbage, it never occurred to us just how limited his future was going to be b/c he is so dang smart. But, it takes far more than intelligence to function as an adult.

 

:tongue_smilie: I'll stop ranting now.

 

 

 

 

I agree:iagree: I have a son who is 17yrs old and diagnosed with asd in his younger years now they say he is just bipolar but I know there is more but they just don;t live with him.Last year he broke my wrist because he was mad that I took away his cell phone for nasty nasty attitude-cussing etc. Then he tried to hang himself twice with a suicide note written because he feels everyone was against him at school.

He is mainstreamed but two years behind. So luckily he is still in the school system until he is 19 yrs or so. He is a sweet boy and all but the violence is ugly and the depression -bad. I have no idea what his future will be.

[Mrs. Lilac]

They can be both gifted and Asperger's. My husband is a gifted engineer who has Asperger's.

 

-Typically- speech delay/issues is not part of Asperger's, it's more of a straight autism thing.....so you may need to look at that route as well.

 

P.S.- the reason it's called an autism "spectrum" is that people with autism and Asperger's share some common characteristics, but there is such a huge range....you can't say someone is or isn't on the spectrum because they do/don't do that someone ELSE on the spectrum does.....kwim?

 

http://www.autismspeaks.org has great information.

[8filltheheart]

They can be both gifted and Asperger's. My husband is a gifted engineer who has Asperger's.

 

.

 

Mrs Lilac, would you willing to help me understand something? I am often told about about the successful adult professionals w/Aspergers and I am left with questions. At what age did your dh seek an evaluation for being on the autistic spectrum and what yr was he formally diagnosed w/Aspergers? What city was he in? (not specific name, but small town or one w/cutting edge mental health professionals?)

 

I am really trying to understand this. Since Aspergers was not a diagnosis in this country before 1994 (our ds was 2 yrs old by that pt), seeking an accurate diagnosis for him literally took us yrs. It is the young adults my ds's age and slightly older that have been "left out to hang" when it comes to services for Aspergers b/c the diagnosis was too new for appropriate diagnosis when they were young. The younger set has tremendous # of services available by comparison b/c of the sheer # of kids diagnosed since the older kids were the "guinea pig" diagnosis generation. There are literally only a handful of young adult services across the entire country.

 

I do wonder about the older adults that are successful and their diagnoses. When were they diagnosed and by whom? (we lived in a small town w/limited mental health professionals for children. Our pediatrician actually told us when ds was little that he thought ds was an Aspie b/c he has an autistic dd and he had spent yrs researching it. It took mental health professionals until ds's teens to actually be able to diagnosis ds correctly.)

 

I would like to hear about the older adult experience w/this.

[Finnella]

They can be both gifted and Asperger's.

:iagree:

 

My DS has Aspergers and ADD. He's also gifted and has Learning Disabilities.

 

A competent professional evaluation is needed. For a child with Aspergers, early intervention is invaluable.

 

Also, because there is a spectrum, the social dysfunction is more apparent in some children than in others. We didn't see a problem with our son until 4th grade. His psychologist said that wasn't unheard of. With some social skills and an encyclopedic knowledge of the current fad (legos, Pokemon, whatever), an Aspie can be the life of the party until around 3rd grade when the other kids move on to a different fad.

 

If you've seen one kid with Aspergers, you've seen one kid with Aspergers.

[alisonslp]

My experience with children on the spectrum has shown that parents with AS were often diagnosed after seeking a diagnosis for their children. Most had no clue that there is such a thing as Aspergers. We grew up in a time when autism looked very different (it was very different - a very narrow diagnosis which basically only included the most socially impaired children).

 

Same is true for older AS siblings of kiddos on the spectrum. They often go undiagnosed until the younger one is labeled with autism. Then the parents begin to question older ones behaviors (or their spouse's behaviors)

[8filltheheart]

My experience with children on the spectrum has shown that parents with AS were often diagnosed after seeking a diagnosis for their children. Most had no clue that there is such a thing as Aspergers. We grew up in a time when autism looked very different (it was very different - a very narrow diagnosis which basically only included the most socially impaired children).

 

Same is true for older AS siblings of kiddos on the spectrum. They often go undiagnosed until the younger one is labeled with autism. Then the parents begin to question older ones behaviors (or their spouse's behaviors)

 

 

Yes. This is our experience. One psy refused to diagnosis our ds as having Aspergers b/c he could have short, fairly normal conversations. This was in 2004! He told us that kids w/Aspergers couldn't talk about anything normal but only things like the motorspeeds of every brand of washing machine. Our ds's obsessions were too "normal." (it didn't matter that they completely handicapped him and that he was obsessed w/them 20+ hrs/day and that he wouldn't want to stop to eat, sleep, go to the bathroom and that he would become completely out of control when we tried to interfere......he is the one that labeled our ds as ODD and CD which couldn't be farther from the truth. He wouldn't even say ds was OCD b/c his obsessions weren't focused on only germs. :tongue_smilie:)

 

It was a very long and overwhelming process trying getting our ds diagnosed.

 

But family history is not part of our experience, so I hadn't thought about adults seeking evaluation that way. No one else in our family is even remotely on the spectrum. (ETA: in extended family, perhaps 1 or 2, though no one as low-functioning as ds in that none that are disabled in a way where they have needed assistance in order to function as adults. For example, at this pt we won't let our ds get his driver's license b/c we are afraid he might become distracted while driving and hurt other people. His anxiety cripples him and he needs an advocate on the college campus that will go with him to talk to professors if he has questions, etc.)

Edited November 14, 2011 by 8FillTheHeart

[Dmmetler]

My brother was DXed Aspergers as an adult, after several very non-successful job situations (did great in college, great in grad school, great in law school...failed miserably in several different legal jobs). He'd had multiple DXs in various flavors of MBD/ADD/ADD-H/ADHD growing up, but wasn't even considered anywhere close to autistic. Until the early 2000's, when he was struggling because he simply didn't have the ability to "Read" others needed to handle adult situations and, despite great academic credentials couldn't get hired or hold a job. Aspergers made a LOT of sense.

 

Fortunately, he was able to stumble into a job where having both the high level credentials and a DX was actually something of a benefit (he's a staff attorney for the state office of Protection and Advocacy), and he's GREAT when it comes to diving in and researching and writing the papers and documents needed to support getting some poor person into a more appropriate facility (like a psychiatric hospital instead of prison) or in helping someone support a need for adult care services.

 

I wonder, now, whether he'd be DXed as a child, or if he'd fall in the category my DD falls into, which apparently is "very smart, very quirky, but doesn't meet all the criteria for an ASD".

[Runningmom80]

The best resource I have found is here, Giftedness and Asperger's Syndrome: A New Agenda for Education , especially the tables. :)

 

Thank you so much for this! It's a great read, very informative.

 

 

OP, my DS just turned 5 yesterday, and we are starting the psych evaluate now. He's had iq testing and is gifted, but he may also have Aspergers or PDD-NOS. It's sometimes both gifted and Aspergers.

[Mrs. Lilac]

Mrs Lilac, would you willing to help me understand something? I am often told about about the successful adult professionals w/Aspergers and I am left with questions. At what age did your dh seek an evaluation for being on the autistic spectrum and what yr was he formally diagnosed w/Aspergers? What city was he in? (not specific name, but small town or one w/cutting edge mental health professionals?)

 

I would like to hear about the older adult experience w/this.

 

Glad to help in any way I can! My DH was diagnosed at age 50, in 2010. Our son was diagnosed with autism a few years prior....at an autism orientation we went to, DH and I looked at each other and I said, "Um, I kinda think this sounds like YOU." And he agreed. We didn't do much with it then....then later, we were having some marital issues related to communication....he went to the doc to rule out anything physical, doc said he checked out fine and thought it might be Asperger's, which a psychologist then confirmed. We are near Nashville, TN.

 

As far as resources, it's hit and miss- we've sought counseling, but the counselors don't know what to do with an adult with Asperger's. Not finding too much in the way of resources. There seem to be a very few who deal with adults with Asperger's specifically, and we're finding them to be very pricey. So we're still on the quest for answers.

 

I am MORE than happy to answer any other questions or help in any way if I can!

[8filltheheart]

Glad to help in any way I can! My DH was diagnosed at age 50, in 2010. Our son was diagnosed with autism a few years prior....at an autism orientation we went to, DH and I looked at each other and I said, "Um, I kinda think this sounds like YOU." And he agreed. We didn't do much with it then....then later, we were having some marital issues related to communication....he went to the doc to rule out anything physical, doc said he checked out fine and thought it might be Asperger's, which a psychologist then confirmed. We are near Nashville, TN.

 

As far as resources, it's hit and miss- we've sought counseling, but the counselors don't know what to do with an adult with Asperger's. Not finding too much in the way of resources. There seem to be a very few who deal with adults with Asperger's specifically, and we're finding them to be very pricey. So we're still on the quest for answers.

 

I am MORE than happy to answer any other questions or help in any way if I can!

 

Thank you for taking the time to answer. I am extremely frustrated by the lack of services that we are able to find for our ds. I think the number of available services will probably increase, but I don't think we will see it until the kids that are about 5 yrs old right now are 20+ yrs old.

[melmichigan]

Another thing to keep in mind, the higher the IQ, the more difficult it becomes to differentiate, the lines become murky. At the time of my DD's diagnosis we were told that the psych was pretty confident but that there were only five psychologist in the country that work with Asperger's in children with IQ's greater than 145. It took us two years to find a neuropsychologist who specializes in Autism Spectrum disorders in kids with IQ's greater than 135 to treat my DD. Her practice includes kids from all over the world. You can have gifted (and all it's levels), AS, and Gifted with AS, which can be very different in some ways.

[MyLittleBears]

You might find these resources helpful.

 

http://www.eric.ed.gov/PDFS/EJ860954.pdf

 

http://www.amazon.com/Misdiagnosis-Diagnoses-Gifted-Children-Adults/dp/0910707677/ref=tmm_pap_title_0/175-4207128-0638224

 

Thank you for this post. I have always had my doubts about my ds's evaluation.

[ElizaG]

Interesting discussion. I've wondered about this sometimes in relation to my own family. It seems as if a gifted child with a tendency toward an anxious temperament could have problems with both shyness and meltdowns, since anxiety in children often manifests as irritability or angry outbursts. Add in some intense interests -- which could be normal by gifted standards, but not typical of most children that age -- and it seems like it would take a skilled and experienced person to sort this out.

 

At least one of our children might qualify for a diagnosis of AS on the above grounds, depending on who we talked to. But when I look at the symptom lists that don't seem to fit (including all of category B in the DSM-IV, if you don't count the intense interests) -- and when I meet or hear about people like 8FilltheHeart's DS, who seem to be dealing with a different set of challenges altogether -- I tend to think it would be mistaken.

 

We're open to seeking a professional evaluation, but we're reluctant to just choose someone off a list. There seems to be a high likelihood of their getting the wrong end of the stick, whether due to lack of experience or to bias toward a personal field of interest (be it autism, giftedness, mood disorders, "visual spatial learners," "stealth dyslexia," or whatever).

Edited November 15, 2011 by Eleanor

[melmichigan]

Interesting discussion. I've wondered about this sometimes in relation to my own family. It seems as if a gifted child with a tendency toward an anxious temperament could have problems with both shyness and meltdowns, since anxiety in children often manifests as irritability or angry outbursts. Add in some intense interests -- which could be normal by gifted standards, but not typical of most children that age -- and it seems like it would take a skilled and experienced person to sort this out.

 

At least one of our children might qualify for a diagnosis of AS on the above grounds, depending on who we talked to. But when I look at the symptom lists that don't seem to fit (including all of category B in the DSM-IV, if you don't count the intense interests) -- and when I meet or hear about people like 8FilltheHeart's DS, who seem to be dealing with a different set of challenges altogether -- I tend to think it would be mistaken.

 

We're open to seeking a professional evaluation, but we're reluctant to just choose someone off a list. There seems to be a high likelihood of their getting the wrong end of the stick, whether due to lack of experience or to bias toward a personal field of interest (be it autism, giftedness, mood disorders, "visual spatial learners," "stealth dyslexia," or whatever).

 

If you look at the tables in the report I referrenced you will see that the social skills that are lacking become more and more pronounced as you approach adolescence. The differences become easier to see.

[Storm Bay]

Perhaps both at once. There are gifted Aspies. My cousin is undiagnosed (his son is diagnosed, but his wife & I are convinced he has it, for a number of reasons). He is a brilliant lawyer, and his clients put up with his quirks because he is so brilliant at what he does. There are Aspies who are college professors, etc. I'm not sure why I keep hearing about Aspies with a lot of learning problems lately, because Aspies are usually normal, to bright, to exceptionally bright. There are some who say that sometimes gived dc are misdiagnosed with Asperger's, too.

 

A diagnosis of Asperger's involves more than just social issues. There are six diagnostic criteria that need to be met. I think that it does get overdiagnosed, but it definitely exists. The table in the article Melmichigan mentioned is too simplistic, especially for girls. It is possible to be a brilliant person with Asperger's but not fit with this part:

Advanced, Sophisticated Vocabulary vs Hyperlexia

Complex Cognition vs Simple Cognition

Advanced Understanding vs Advanced Memorization

 

The DAN! website is a great resource for professionals, and I'd look for one who doesn't specialize just in this. Some are wholistic MDs who cover a lot more than just this type of thing, and that might work well for you if there's one close enough. http://www.autism.com/pro_danlists_results.asp?list=US&type=1 You don't have to say autism or Asperger's, either, and you can let them figure out what it is. You will need to answer a lot of questions, though.

 

The problem with labels, too, is that they can be has much of a hindrance as a help because of the human tendency to want to label people and put them into boxes, so to speak. A diagnosis can be very, very helpful, though, if you have a child with increasing difficulties, particularly if your child causes disruption, and also during the teen years when hormones and new feelings come into play.

Edited November 18, 2011 by Karin

[melmichigan]

I'm not sure why I keep hearing about Aspies with a lot of learning problems lately, because Aspies are usually normal, to bright, to exceptionally bright.

 

I wondered about that as well. I thought the diagnostic criteria included:

 

There is no clinically significant delay in cognitive development or in the development of

age-appropriate self-help skills, adaptive behavior (other than in social interaction), and

curiosity about the environment in childhood.

[Storm Bay]

I wondered about that as well. I thought the diagnostic criteria included:

 

You are correct. Yesterday, however long after I made my other post that was, I ran into an old aquaintance who has gone back to school part time. She's writing a paper on the overdiagnosis of Asperger's as well as the uselessness of the spectrum terminology. Let's face it, everyone can fit somewhere on that spectrum, whereas not all aspies belong on it if you truly mean autism. Autism and Asperger's are DIFFERENT. One has to remember that even the original diagnosis of Asperger's is an umbrella term to begin with, since some apies avoid social situations (perhaps a form of autism, I'm not sure) while some love to be with people and interact but have difficulty with it. Plus other things.

Edited November 20, 2011 by Karin

[boscopup]

You are correct. Yesterday, however long after I made my other post that was, I ran into an old aquaintance who has gone back to school part time. She's writing a paper on the overdiagnosis of Asperger's as well as the uselessness of the spectrum terminology. Let's face it, everyone can fit somewhere on that spectrum, whereas not all aspies belong on it if you truly mean autism. Autism and Asperger's are DIFFERENT. One has to remember that even the original diagnosis of Asperger's is an umbrella term to begin with, since some apies avoid social situations (perhaps a form of autism, I'm not sure) while some love to be with people and interact but have difficulty with it. Plus other things.

 

It seems like some kids are diagnosed Asperger's when they're really high functioning Autistic. My nephew is autistic (not high functioning - he will never live on his own or hold a job or even go to college), and when the doctors were first diagnosing him, they initially said he was probably Asperger's. He didn't talk at all! He finally started repeating some words/phrases around age 10, though he's still not talking like you'd expect even a neurotypical 3 year old to talk. Why they said "Asperger's", I have no clue! :confused: He's very much Autistic, not Asperger's. Now his dad... He's most likely Asperger's, though has never been officially diagnosed. After his son was diagnosed, we realized why the dad was so... different. He's very linguistically intelligent. He knows several languages and studies dialects. He's no fun to play Balderdash with because he knows all the words and doesn't understand the humor behind making up definitions. And while he is so intelligent, some common sense is lacking (like if a pole that holds up a corner of a carport roof is not touching the ground, he couldn't understand why it wasn't holding up the roof... it was 3" off the ground), and he will argue you into the ground even after you've more than proven that he's wrong - he won't ever admit being wrong. Seriously, we once argued whether German Shepherds could be solid black, and when I named the black GSD that all GSDs today originally come from, he still insisted that black GSDs were "mongrels"... didn't matter that the AKC, SV, and every other breed registry in the world says black is an acceptable color. :tongue_smilie:

 

And isn't "Asperger's" being done away with soon? They're going to just say everything is ASD, right?

[Ritsumei]

No they can't.

 

So can they be both? Gifted and Asperger?

 

I have a BIL who is both gifted - I've never seen anyone do math like he does! - and has noticeable Aspergers. When my sister talks about the impact of the two traits on her marriage it's tremendously interesting. He's aware that he's not very socially adept, so I think they have some sort of signal. She's mentioned it, briefly a couple of times, but I keep my curiosity to myself cuz it's really none of my business. My BIL is a fascinating man. It's work to get to know him, but I'm finding that it's well worth the effort.

Edited November 21, 2011 by Ritsumei

[8filltheheart]

You are correct. Yesterday, however long after I made my other post that was, I ran into an old aquaintance who has gone back to school part time. She's writing a paper on the overdiagnosis of Asperger's as well as the uselessness of the spectrum terminology. Let's face it, everyone can fit somewhere on that spectrum, whereas not all aspies belong on it if you truly mean autism. Autism and Asperger's are DIFFERENT. One has to remember that even the original diagnosis of Asperger's is an umbrella term to begin with, since some apies avoid social situations (perhaps a form of autism, I'm not sure) while some love to be with people and interact but have difficulty with it. Plus other things.

 

I think it is incredibly over-diagnosed and a term that has been co-opted by the general population to mean something it is not. Everybody and their brother has told me that they know very successful Aspies at work. I ask them how they know they know their co-workers have Aspergers and their response is simply that they can tell b/c they are "different."

 

As the mom of an adult that is disabled, I mean REALLY DISABLED, I just want to scream that it isn't a "designer label" for highly intelligent individuals who are simply "different." If that is all it is, what is the need for diagnosis, assistance, and treatment plans? Lots of people are "different." Does the "difference" significantly impact their ability to function normally? My personal opinion is that if doesn't severely limit them, than why would they be considered abnormal? It is abnormal to be like these individuals......not just slightly different/quirky/absent-minded professor-ish.

 

Lots of people are "off." Lots of people have poor communications skills. What amazes me is that our ds is handicapped and yet, amg the adult Aspies at his college, he is the highest functioning. The others are no where near as independent as he is (and he is so far from being independent. We left him at home alone this weekend and today and our 10 yod was very upset. She was asking questions like "How is he going to be ready for when the van service picks him up for school?" (He doesn't drive and qualifies for the disabled busing service.) Our 10 yr old is far more mature/aware/responsible, etc than our 20 yr old. We actually had to ask a neighbor to check in on him all weekend and go there this morning and make sure he locked the door after the van service picked him up.

 

He is not handicapped in "intelligence" in any way. I posted earlier that he has almost a photographic memory. He also has an incredible sense of humor (he could be a stand up comic w/some of his wry, witty commentaries.) However, again, the other adults in his group are handicapped educationally. Higher math w/its abstractions are killer to most of the group.

 

While it is a spectrum disorder and people are going to have a wide range of behaviors/comorbid disorders, etc.......if someone is living a fairly typical "normal" daily life, I would question whether or not they are truly on the spectrum b/c none of the individuals we are around could be classified that way; they are simply too far from "normal" and definitely present "atypical."

 

ETA: I meant to comment on the autism vs. Aspergers difference. W/our ds, he would never qualify for an actual autism diagnosis. His ability to communicate is far too advanced for autism. Autistic individuals are even more significantly disabled than those w/Aspergers. I can't imagine any dr w/their credentials diagnosing an individual w/o age appropriate speech at age 10 as an Aspie. That is definitely an inaccurate diagnosis. Nuanced speech and appropriate 2 way communication, yes. But no speech, no way.

Edited November 21, 2011 by 8FillTheHeart

[boscopup]

ETA: I meant to comment on the autism vs. Aspergers difference. W/our ds, he would never qualify for an actual autism diagnosis. His ability to communicate is far too advanced for autism. Autistic individuals are even more significantly disabled than those w/Aspergers. I can't imagine any dr w/their credentials diagnosing an individual w/o age appropriate speech at age 10 as an Aspie. That is definitely an inaccurate diagnosis. Nuanced speech and appropriate 2 way communication, yes. But no speech, no way.

 

It was at age 3 that they were saying he was likely Asperger's. Sometime after that (can't remember what age), they said he was Autistic. I just don't know why Asperger's even came up at age 3. He had no speech. He didn't even coo as a baby. He's almost 12 now. I haven't seen him in a couple years, but will see him next month. From what I've heard, he's still repeating words/phrases at times, but not actually conversing with someone. Thankfully, he was able to get into a school that deals with Autistic kids. His previous school wanted to put him in with the regular kids! :001_huh: That's just insane. There is no way he would function in a regular classroom. Ever.

 

I don't know what kind of doctor said Asperger's or why. I'm pretty sure my sister is no longer seeing that doctor, whoever it was. :tongue_smilie:

[ElizaG]

This is sort of what I've been wondering about. When I first heard of Asperger Syndrome in college, a few people (including one female fellow student) came to mind immediately. Even in the context of the somewhat nerdy crowd that I tended to hang around with, these folks seemed somehow qualitatively different. There was some combination of behaviors that were just off: literal thinking, flat/pedantic speech, obliviousness to social cues, unusual stimming, etc. But 20 years later, it seems like there's been diagnostic creep to the point where practically everyone who's not a socially adept extrovert could be considered "on the spectrum" to some degree.

 

After doing some more reading, I think the description of overexcitabilities fits my child(ren) much more closely, but I'll start another thread so as not to hijack. OP, I wish you the best in figuring this out.

[Storm Bay]

I think it is incredibly over-diagnosed and a term that has been co-opted by the general population to mean something it is not. Everybody and their brother has told me that they know very successful Aspies at work. I ask them how they know they know their co-workers have Aspergers and their response is simply that they can tell b/c they are "different."

 

 

ETA: I meant to comment on the autism vs. Aspergers difference. W/our ds, he would never qualify for an actual autism diagnosis. His ability to communicate is far too advanced for autism. Autistic individuals are even more significantly disabled than those w/Aspergers. I can't imagine any dr w/their credentials diagnosing an individual w/o age appropriate speech at age 10 as an Aspie. That is definitely an inaccurate diagnosis. Nuanced speech and appropriate 2 way communication, yes. But no speech, no way.

 

You're right, lots of people do this kind of faulty diagnosis. As for being disabled, I think that varies with just how much that happens. There are Aspies who can function as professors, etc, and that's not made up. They still have to have speical ways to cope that neurotypical people don't have to do. Also, it can look very different in girls than boys as they get older. Lianne Holliday Willey was diagnosed with this and she is married with dc & works. Like any disability, some are more able to do things on their own than others are.

 

As for speech, I think it depends on the kind of speech we're talking about, rote vs pragmatic. Like ADHD & ADD, it's overdiagnosed, and people are always throwing out these terms without really thinking about it. There are a few people who are sure my ds has ADHD, but he doesn't fit the criteria. He does tend toward anxiety, but not all the time.

[Finnella]

You are correct. Yesterday, however long after I made my other post that was, I ran into an old aquaintance who has gone back to school part time. She's writing a paper on the overdiagnosis of Asperger's as well as the uselessness of the spectrum terminology. Let's face it, everyone can fit somewhere on that spectrum, whereas not all aspies belong on it if you truly mean autism. Autism and Asperger's are DIFFERENT. One has to remember that even the original diagnosis of Asperger's is an umbrella term to begin with, since some apies avoid social situations (perhaps a form of autism, I'm not sure) while some love to be with people and interact but have difficulty with it. Plus other things.

 

(Emphasis added by me.) :iagree:

 

I agree, yet the plan is to fold Aspergers into autism in the DSM-V.

 

While the psychological practice that has been treating my Aspie has several psychologists who specialize in Aspergers, they refrained from diagnosing him for several years. They admitted to the possibility when he was in 3rd grade and diagnosed as ADD. They waited until 5th grade to assign the Aspergers diagnosis. Based on the DSM-IV description, I objected loudly. It wasn't until I read The Complete Guide to Asperger's Syndrome by Dr. Tony Attwood that I was persuaded.

 

After extensive testing in 5th grade, my DS was also determined to be gifted with LDs or twice exceptional. I didn't even know that was possible. Plus he has anxiety. I think a good, thorough evaluation is needed. A child may have other issues in addition to Aspergers, or something entirely different.

[Storm Bay]

(Emphasis added by me.) :iagree:

 

I agree, yet the plan is to fold Aspergers into autism in the DSM-V.

 

.

 

After extensive testing in 5th grade, my DS was also determined to be gifted with LDs or twice exceptional. I didn't even know that was possible. Plus he has anxiety. I think a good, thorough evaluation is needed. A child may have other issues in addition to Aspergers, or something entirely different.

:iagree:

[Cindyg]

My boys are in the process of getting diagnosed. They both show signs of Asperger (confirmed by specialist) and giftedness. They both have speech delays, they stim, get upset when they haven't got anything to do, need their educational time everyday, line up toys, don't pretend play, argue all the time, have no social skills, talk all the time, laugh when inappropriate, work far above their grade level etc.

 

How can I tell the difference between giftedness and Asperger? When is a child gifted anyway? I guess I'm just trying to figure out what I'm dealing with here...

 

OP, did you get a diagnosis yet?

 

From your list, here's what indicates Aspergers (IMO):

 

* Speech delay

* Stimming

* Lining up toys

* Don't pretend play

* No social skills

* Laugh when inappropriate

 

The other things, in my experience, could mean something or nothing.

 

I hope you'll post back when you know.

[Finnella]

From your list, here's what indicates Aspergers (IMO):

 

* Speech delay

* Stimming

* Lining up toys

* Don't pretend play

* No social skills

* Laugh when inappropriate

 

I hope you'll post back when you know.

 

Speech delay is typically NOT a sign of Aspergers. That seems to be the primary difference between the descriptions of High Functioning Autism and Aspergers, with kids with HFA having a speech delay. I'll admit to being one of many people who are confused on the difference(s) in these two diagnoses.

[Storm Bay]

Speech delay is typically NOT a sign of Aspergers. That seems to be the primary difference between the descriptions of High Functioning Autism and Aspergers, with kids with HFA having a speech delay. I'll admit to being one of many people who are confused on the difference(s) in these two diagnoses.

Well, yes and no. Yes, speech delay is not a diagnostic criteria of Apserger's. No to speech delay being the line between Asperger's & HFA being that--that just doesn't make enough sense based on all that I have read. The problem is that there are so many variations in people that the lines get fuzzy sometimes, and these are such umbrella diagnoses now. Most aspies don't have speech delay--some speak very, very early, but that's not to say it can't happen. The other problem is, as I mentioned, the meaninglessness of the so-called continuing autism spectrum. It would depend largely on why there was a speech delay. There are plenty of neurotypical (meaning they don't have autism or Asperger's) who have speech delay.

 

There are 6 main criteria for diagnosing Asperger's (I read this years ago--my cousin's son has Asperger's), at least in the common way of diagnosing it. However, one of the key points made in Tony Attwood's book is how higly individual apsies are. There is a long list of other things that may or may not occur with children who have Asperger's. Someone with high functioning Austism is Temple Grandin who did have speech delay. She definitely does not fit into the Asperger's profile and is clearly different from someone with Asperger's.

 

However, the problem is that Asperger's Syndrome was an umbrella diagnosis even before it became so well known. While labels such as this can be helpful at times, there is an inherent danger in lumping too many people into the same category. I don't know as much about autism, since we don't have any of that in the family, but I've been around autistic kids & you can see the difference. We have friends with a 13 yo autistic girl and she's very obviously different than any aspie I've ever met even though she's higher functioning than most of the ones I've encountered. I"m sure there are kids out there who aren't as clearly one or the other that I don't know.

 

This is a link to his site, but note that the lack of empathy has been disputed. http://www.tonyattwood.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=62&Itemid=719 . For some general info on girls & women with Asperger's see http://www.tonyattwood.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=917&Itemid=720 Note the use if imagination, sensitivity the emotional environment, etc

 

Many people read things like "prone to" and "may" and then lump them into the diagnostic criteria, too.

Edited November 29, 2011 by Karin

[melmichigan]

Speech delay is typically NOT a sign of Aspergers. That seems to be the primary difference between the descriptions of High Functioning Autism and Aspergers, with kids with HFA having a speech delay. I'll admit to being one of many people who are confused on the difference(s) in these two diagnoses.

 

Current diagnosis criteria state that there is no general delay in language in order to diagnose Aspergers. Who knows what is going to happen with the new criteria coming, it will be a mess for sure. :001_huh:

[MamaSheep]

I agree that the changes in the diagnostic criteria will probably be messy. But the diagnoses currently being handed out seem somewhat messily arbitrary and subjective as it is, so I don't think it will make things worse than they already are. It's all so individual to each person anyway, I'm not sure how helpful different diagnoses actually are--either way you need to custom tailor the interventions and therapies to that specific person's specific situation. It might be better to put the money into occupational therapy (for example) instead of getting down to the nitty gritty of whether the child needs OT because he has autism, or needs it because he has Asperger's Syndrome. The label isn't really what's important.

 

I know a researcher who was part of a 5-year, 5 million dollar study at Harvard where the whole point of the research was to delineate the difference between autism and Asperger's, and they couldn't do it. He said kids would come in, and they'd say "oh yes, this one is obviously autistic," or, "this one is clearly Asperger's", but they were unable to come up with an actual list of characteristics that one set consistently had and the other didn't, and/or vice versa. According to the data they collected from gobs of kids from all over the country, the two are scientifically indistinguishable. That doesn't mean they're "the same thing", necessarily, just that there's no reliable scientific criteria for telling the difference.

Edited November 30, 2011 by MamaSheep

[Storm Bay]

I'm not sure how helpful different diagnoses actually are--either way you need to custom tailor the interventions and therapies to that specific person's specific situation. It might be better to put the money into occupational therapy (for example) instead of getting down to the nitty gritty of whether the child needs OT because he has autism, or needs it because he has Asperger's Syndrome. The label isn't really what's important.

 

That doesn't mean they're "the same thing", necessarily, just that there's no reliable scientific criteria for telling the difference.

 

 

These are important points, and I think the problem lies in trying to label very different kids who have some of the same sypmtoms/issues into these groups. For just one eg, what do you do with a child who fits the classic diagnosis of Asperger's, but who has advanced, ophisticated vocabulary as opposed to echolalia, reading comprehension that matches advanced reading levels rather than hyperlexia, advanced understanding, and an exellent understanding of figures of speech? There is a book out now on girls & Asperger's that points out that some of these girls grow up and going into caring professions.

 

I doubt that I'll be any happier with the new diagnostic criteria than I have been with any of it.

Edited November 30, 2011 by Karin

[Finnella]

The label isn't really what's important.

 

I know a researcher who was part of a 5-year, 5 million dollar study at Harvard where the whole point of the research was to delineate the difference between autism and Asperger's, and they couldn't do it. He said kids would come in, and they'd say "oh yes, this one is obviously autistic," or, "this one is clearly Asperger's", but they were unable to come up with an actual list of characteristics that one set consistently had and the other didn't, and/or vice versa. According to the data they collected from gobs of kids from all over the country, the two are scientifically indistinguishable. That doesn't mean they're "the same thing", necessarily, just that there's no reliable scientific criteria for telling the difference.

 

Thanks for this information. I read conversations on yahoo groups all the time from confused parents trying to figure out the difference between autism and Aspergers. It's interesting to hear of specialists having trouble describing a definite line.

 

In one regard, the label is extremely important. One reason advanced for eliminating Aspergers as a separate diagnosis is to address problems in California and Texas. Both of these large states provide more services for autistic children than for Aspies. While I consider that to be a backwards way of fixing the problem, my family isn't affected by this issue.