Holy mac n cheese! Have you seen this jerk's video?

[Kirch]

A father beating a 16 year old with a belt for age-expected behavior (not *appropriate*, but not out of expected range) does not happen in a vacuum. It does not happen for a father (a child-abuse JUDGE) to suddenly get THIS out of control. It.just.does.not.happen. that a father suddenly feels that corporal punishment of a 16 year old female is acceptable, suddenly takes things too far, suddenly turns terribly punitive and adversarial. There is context and history in which this occured, and none of it is understandable because of her behavior or a parent's obligation to guide/discipline children.

 

:iagree: Yes. And then there's the fact that she knew when/where to set up the camera to even film it in the first place. I don't think she did that on the off chance that her dad might just happen to lose it for the first time ever.

[Mama2Many4]

I counsel teens in a residential treatment center (not specifically substance related). These kids have done many things that were risky, inappropriate, illegal, and showed very poor choices.

 

All of them had been "disciplined". All of them have been punished. NOT ONE OF THEM deserves to be physically disciplined by adults who are supposed to love, serve, protect, and guide them. Nothing this girl could have done would change my reaction.

 

This book is a good understanding of the "I was treated harshly and turned out ok" pattern/dynamic:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Drama-Gifted-Child-Search-True/dp/0465012612/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1320359165&sr=1-1

 

Thanks. I'm borrowing it from the library. :grouphug:

[Cheryl in NM]

Again, for those of you who refuse to read my whole posts....

 

I've said I recognize this as abuse.

I DO NOT think this is discipline. I think it is discipline GONE WRONG.

There is always a time to lose control the first time, but I don't think it was the first time in this case.

I'm NOT excusing the dad's behavior. I'm DIFFERENTIATING between different abusive behaviors. What this dad did is not the kind of abuse suffered by A Child Called It and similar situations. THAT"S the differentiation I'm talking about.

 

Why do some of you even bother to discuss things on a message board when you don't really read the posts of the people you disagree with? I have stated several times in this thread (probably more than anyone else) that this situation is abuse.

[MelanieM]

Again, for those of you who refuse to read my whole posts....

 

I've said I recognize this as abuse.

I DO NOT think this is discipline. I think it is discipline GONE WRONG.

There is always a time to lose control the first time, but I don't think it was the first time in this case.

I'm NOT excusing the dad's behavior. I'm DIFFERENTIATING between different abusive behaviors. What this dad did is not the kind of abuse suffered by A Child Called It and similar situations. THAT"S the differentiation I'm talking about.

 

Why do some of you even bother to discuss things on a message board when you don't really read the posts of the people you disagree with? I have stated several times in this thread (probably more than anyone else) that this situation is abuse.

 

Cheryl, I think people are reading your posts just fine. Maybe they happen to still disagree with you about the importance of this distinction you're making? How long do you get to call it "discipline gone wrong" and when does it finally cross the line into "malicious abuse"? Sure, maybe when the guy started out on his parenting journey he had good intentions. But when it's to the point that you are beating your 16 yr old with a belt, and it's a common enough occurance that she knows where to put a camera to catch it on film, then isn't it a sign that you have some issues you need to deal with? If you are so aggressive as to be this out of control on a regular basis and you do nothing to help yourself improve, and you obviously know better because you WORK in this field passing judgement on abuse every day, then isn't that a sign that something is horribly wrong? I don't care what good intentions the guy started with. Where he ended up gets him labeled as an abuser, not as a parent who just got pushed too far and lost it this one time.

 

And really, why is it ok to dismiss one form of abuse because it isn't as bad as another? This young woman obviously felt victimized -- and rightly so. Should we tell her that it's not that bad, because other parents would have done worse to her?

 

Gosh, I can't believe there's even a discussion around this to tell you the truth. This was a 16 yr old girl with physical disabilities. Anyone taking a belt to her *for any reason*, even if it were only a "spanking", deserves to be brought up on charges. If her 16 yr old boyfriend were "disciplining" her with a belt, we'd be calling to have his @ss thrown in jail. So why would it be ok for her father to do that?

 

Speaking of... in Canada, it is illegal to strike a child of any age with anything other than the open hand. It is illegal to strike a child under 2 yrs or over 12 yrs at all, regardless of what you're using. So here, this is most definitely illegal behaviour. (To answer a question posted several pages back.)

Edited November 4, 2011 by MelanieM

[shinyhappypeople]

Again, for those of you who refuse to read my whole posts....

 

I've said I recognize this as abuse.

I DO NOT think this is discipline. I think it is discipline GONE WRONG.

There is always a time to lose control the first time, but I don't think it was the first time in this case.

I'm NOT excusing the dad's behavior. I'm DIFFERENTIATING between different abusive behaviors. What this dad did is not the kind of abuse suffered by A Child Called It and similar situations. THAT"S the differentiation I'm talking about.

 

Why do some of you even bother to discuss things on a message board when you don't really read the posts of the people you disagree with? I have stated several times in this thread (probably more than anyone else) that this situation is abuse.

 

:grouphug:

 

I understand what you're saying. I think it's interesting, in a kind of morbid way, to peel back the layers of abusive behavior and analyze it.

 

Again, :grouphug:

[Aelwydd]

Again, for those of you who refuse to read my whole posts....

 

I've said I recognize this as abuse.

I DO NOT think this is discipline. I think it is discipline GONE WRONG.

There is always a time to lose control the first time, but I don't think it was the first time in this case.

I'm NOT excusing the dad's behavior. I'm DIFFERENTIATING between different abusive behaviors. What this dad did is not the kind of abuse suffered by A Child Called It and similar situations. THAT"S the differentiation I'm talking about.

 

 

You are attempting to categorize this as a form of less offensive abuse by using terms like "discipline gone wrong," as if this situation had some kind of healthy, wholesome beginning.

 

You are missing the point, specifically, Joanne's point: this behavior had a history. That is to say, he had been abusing her for some time. He wasn't ever going into that room with anything but a beating as his intention. Because he'd done it many times before. This woman has shared that fact in interviews.

 

Also, the bit about it being sexual? Of course it was sexualized. Unless you would like to maintain that a situation where a much older man, grabbing a 16 year old girl, telling her to get on her ass so he can spank her, until she submits to him (to the tune of being told by another party "take it like a woman), would simply be rude behavior?

 

I mean, if it was your 16 year old daughter being handled and talked to and struck like that, by an older man, you wouldn't consider that sexual violence? How could you not find that to be a seriously effed up situation??

 

And don't plead "But he's her father" line with me. If he had outright raped her, would you have protested the "sexual" component of that, too, because he was her father? If anything, the fact that he is her father made it more egregious an assault, not less.

 

Here's my deal: I got "spanked" (read: beaten) with a belt when I was growing up, and I also was sexually assaulted once in high school. In both cases, I had to come to terms with the fact that what was done to me was wrong, and that nothing I did justified that abuse.

 

Thanks to that history, I could barely watch this video. I'm telling you, it hit all my triggers. Don't tell me there wasn't anything sexual about it.

 

Cheryl, it was hard to reconcile to myself that what was done to me was wrong. It went against the grain of certain the conservative religious mores I had relied upon for comfort and guidance, to recognize what my father did as abuse. So, for a long time, I excused what he had done (and by extension, other belt-wielding abusers like this judge), because it was preferable to admitting the pain and betrayal of realizing what my own father did to me. I didn't want to call the man I knew and loved an abuser. It hurt too bad.

 

Eventually, I confronted the truth, and him. What he did was wrong. He had no right to hit me, beat me, insult me, or curse me. That isn't discipline--that's BULLYING. And ABUSE.

 

I'm sure you'll disagree with my interpretation of that, and will insist that it was kosher discipline, or maybe just "discipline gone wrong." If you want to maintain that state of cognitive dissonance, that's fine, but don't expect people like me to share an eagerness to obscure the truth about what happened to this girl. Watching that video, I couldn't stand it for her. I cried bitterly.

Edited November 4, 2011 by Aelwydd

[jillian]

You are attempting to categorize this as a form of less offensive abuse by using terms like "discipline gone wrong," as if this situation had some kind of healthy, wholesome beginning.

 

You are missing the point, specifically, Joanne's point: this behavior had a history. That is to say, he had been abusing her for some time. He wasn't ever going into that room with anything but a beating as his intention. Because he'd done it many times before. This woman has shared that fact in interviews.

 

Also, the bit about it being sexual? Of course it was sexualized. Unless you would like to maintain that a situation where a much older man, grabbing a 16 year old girl, telling her to get on her ass so he can spank her, until she submits to him (to the tune of being told by another party "take it like a woman), would simply be rude behavior?

 

I mean, if it was your 16 year old daughter being handled and talked to and struck like that, by an older man, you wouldn't consider that sexual violence? How could you not find that to be a seriously effed up situation??

 

And don't plead "But he's her father" line with me. If he had outright raped her, would you have protested the "sexual" component of that, too, because he was her father? If anything, the fact that he is her father made it more egregious an assault, not less.

 

Here's my deal: I got "spanked" (read: beaten) with a belt when I was growing up, and I also was sexually assaulted once in high school. In both cases, I had to come to terms with the fact that what was done to me was wrong, and that nothing I did justified that abuse.

 

Thanks to that history, I could barely watch this video. I'm telling you, it hit all my triggers. Don't tell me there wasn't anything sexual about it.

 

Cheryl, it was hard to reconcile to myself that what was done to me was wrong. It went against the grain of certain the conservative religious mores I had relied upon for comfort and guidance, to recognize what my father did as abuse. So, for a long time, I excused what he had done (and by extension, other belt-wielding abusers like this judge), because it was preferable to admitting the pain and betrayal of realizing what my own father did to me. I didn't want to call the man I knew and loved an abuser. It hurt too bad.

 

Eventually, I confronted the truth, and him. What he did was wrong. He had no right to hit me, beat me, insult me, or curse me. That isn't discipline--that's BULLYING. And ABUSE.

 

I'm sure you'll disagree with my interpretation of that, and will insist that it was kosher discipline, or maybe just "discipline gone wrong." If you want to maintain that state of cognitive dissonance, that's fine, but don't expect people like me to share an eagerness to obscure the truth about what happened to this girl. Watching that video, I couldn't stand it for her. I cried bitterly.

I just want to give you a big hug. I'm so sorry for you past.

[Cheryl in NM]

The reason I'm trying to clarify my position is because people keep quoting me and saying that I'm excusing this as discipline. I'm not. And yes, there is a distinction in discipline gone wrong and malicious abuse. I'm met many healing people who said so. I don't advertise the fact like some, but I have extensive history and background with abused people (adults and kids). Plus, I have my own situation. I thought it was abuse so in my child's mind in was abuse. I had to get over that as an adult. I can easily see the difference.

 

I keep re-stating my pov because people keep quoting and taking my opinions out of context, and some even attack me personally because they don't agree with me. I've attacked anyone personally, even those I disagree with strongly and those who have an opposite viewpoint than myself. I think what even the "experts" on this board seem to forget is that none of us is an authority on this specific case. If they were it would be illegal for them to be discussing it on this forum.

 

I've gone into more detail in my posts regarding my beliefs because it's been obvious that my opinions have hurt some people's feelings and offended some people. I've agreed to disagree, but I keep getting my opinions twisted and being attacked. How can we discuss a topic in full if those with differing opinions are attacked and their words twisted beyond recognition of their meaning? Maybe we need a "Just want to vent and don't want any opinions different than mine" board.

[Brilliant]

 

I don't know. Mom got some licks in on her legs trying to force her to turn over as well. And she participated in the cursing and yelling. If this happened yesterday, I'd say she is just as culpable as dad.

 

However, since it happened seven years ago, mom has obviously taken some steps (who knows, maybe even spurred on by this incident) to remove herself and her daughters from that toxic environment. Mom condemns the behavior and has made positive changes to protect her daughters from it. Dad, as recently as today, is defending and justifying his behavior. Although we can't know what all has transpired in the mean time, it certainly does seem like the evidence supports the daughter's contention that mom is not at fault overall and was abused and cooerced herself.

 

Mom didn't really. In their 2007 divorce, they were given joint custody of a 10-year old. So she would have been completely unable to protect that child.

[Jennifer3141]

Mom didn't really. In their 2007 divorce, they were given joint custody of a 10-year old. So she would have been completely unable to protect that child.

 

:iagree: The more that comes to light about this mother, the less I like her. SHE should have videotaped one of these torture sessions and found some women's rights group to help. Joint physical custody of another young girl with a monster? Uh, NO.

[Cheryl in NM]

Cheryl, I think people are reading your posts just fine. Maybe they happen to still disagree with you about the importance of this distinction you're making?

 

I've agree to disagree about this distinction.

 

How long do you get to call it "discipline gone wrong" and when does it finally cross the line into "malicious abuse"?

 

According to my many posts on the issue: it crosses the line to malicious when then intent is only to hurt the child instead of trying to modify behavior. It's still wrong and it's still abuse just not quite the betrayal of "I'm beating you just because you are alive". I keep re-stating my opinion because it has been mis-quoting, mis-represented and just plain twisted.

 

 

Sure, maybe when the guy started out on his parenting journey he had good intentions. But when it's to the point that you are beating your 16 yr old with a belt, and it's a common enough occurance that she knows where to put a camera to catch it on film, then isn't it a sign that you have some issues you need to deal with?

 

My personal belief is that her behavior, continued deception and disobedience, had her father so wrapped up he couldn't even see straight. No, she did not deserve the beating we witnessed on the tape. Her father, as the father, adult, parent, family court judge, should have been able to see his wrong thinking and get help. He couldn't. He's human. He obviously made many very bad decisions and lost control alot. It's "fog of war", he was caught up in a situation that he couldn't see clearly or get out of. I doesn't excuse his behavior, it explains it, it leaves open the room for him to see the error of his ways, and try to heal this relationship. I believe he loves his daughter. I'm not sure I believe the abuse about the wife. She didn't not seem afraid of him at all.

 

If you are so aggressive as to be this out of control on a regular basis and you do nothing to help yourself improve, and you obviously know better because you WORK in this field passing judgement on abuse every day, then isn't that a sign that something is horribly wrong?

 

YES! That's been my point all along!

 

I don't care what good intentions the guy started with. Where he ended up gets him labeled as an abuser, not as a parent who just got pushed too far and lost it this one time.

 

I agree and I've said so numerous times.

 

And really, why is it ok to dismiss one form of abuse because it isn't as bad as another? This young woman obviously felt victimized -- and rightly so. Should we tell her that it's not that bad, because other parents would have done worse to her?

 

Gosh, I can't believe there's even a discussion around this to tell you the truth. This was a 16 yr old girl with physical disabilities. Anyone taking a belt to her *for any reason*, even if it were only a "spanking", deserves to be brought up on charges. If her 16 yr old boyfriend were "disciplining" her with a belt, we'd be calling to have his @ss thrown in jail. So why would it be ok for her father to do that?

 

I, personally, don't agree with spanking a 16 year old. Even if they are a troubled child, which I'm NOT saying Hilary is, 16 year olds are too old to be spanked IMO. My 15 year old is bigger than me!

 

Speaking of... in Canada, it is illegal to strike a child of any age with anything other than the open hand. It is illegal to strike a child under 2 yrs or over 12 yrs at all, regardless of what you're using. So here, this is most definitely illegal behaviour. (To answer a question posted several pages back.)

 

The beating he gave her actually is not illegal where he lives (someone posted a link in the first few pages of this thread). Whether or not we agree with it doesn't change the legality of it.

 

I wanted to address your questions one by one because your above post is the perfect example of "if you read my posts entirely you wouldn't be asking the questions you are." I'm not trying to be insulting, really, I'm not. I want to have a respectful dialogue. I understand this is an emotional issue and I've been shocked by the number of people on this thread that have been abused. As I said previously, sadly, it seems commonplace.

[Cheryl in NM]

You are attempting to categorize this as a form of less offensive abuse by using terms like "discipline gone wrong," as if this situation had some kind of healthy, wholesome beginning.

 

You are missing the point, specifically, Joanne's point: this behavior had a history. That is to say, he had been abusing her for some time. He wasn't ever going into that room with anything but a beating as his intention. Because he'd done it many times before. This woman has shared that fact in interviews.

 

Also, the bit about it being sexual? Of course it was sexualized. Unless you would like to maintain that a situation where a much older man, grabbing a 16 year old girl, telling her to get on her ass so he can spank her, until she submits to him (to the tune of being told by another party "take it like a woman), would simply be rude behavior?

 

I mean, if it was your 16 year old daughter being handled and talked to and struck like that, by an older man, you wouldn't consider that sexual violence? How could you not find that to be a seriously effed up situation??

 

And don't plead "But he's her father" line with me. If he had outright raped her, would you have protested the "sexual" component of that, too, because he was her father? If anything, the fact that he is her father made it more egregious an assault, not less.

 

Here's my deal: I got "spanked" (read: beaten) with a belt when I was growing up, and I also was sexually assaulted once in high school. In both cases, I had to come to terms with the fact that what was done to me was wrong, and that nothing I did justified that abuse.

 

Thanks to that history, I could barely watch this video. I'm telling you, it hit all my triggers. Don't tell me there wasn't anything sexual about it.

 

Cheryl, it was hard to reconcile to myself that what was done to me was wrong. It went against the grain of certain the conservative religious mores I had relied upon for comfort and guidance, to recognize what my father did as abuse. So, for a long time, I excused what he had done (and by extension, other belt-wielding abusers like this judge), because it was preferable to admitting the pain and betrayal of realizing what my own father did to me. I didn't want to call the man I knew and loved an abuser. It hurt too bad.

 

Eventually, I confronted the truth, and him. What he did was wrong. He had no right to hit me, beat me, insult me, or curse me. That isn't discipline--that's BULLYING. And ABUSE.

 

I'm sure you'll disagree with my interpretation of that, and will insist that it was kosher discipline, or maybe just "discipline gone wrong." If you want to maintain that state of cognitive dissonance, that's fine, but don't expect people like me to share an eagerness to obscure the truth about what happened to this girl. Watching that video, I couldn't stand it for her. I cried bitterly.

 

 

Again, I've NEVER said he was right or it was okay because he was her father. I've said that I, personally, from watching the video, think he was dealing with a child who had repeatedly been deceptive and disobedient. He was lost and behaved in an abusive manner.

 

I don't see the sexual component. I know that some experts agree with me. I know that most on this board disagree with me. That's okay. I haven't insulted any of those people. Please don't insult me because I don't agree with you.

 

Again, I've never said it was just discipline. Yes, he was being a bully and abusive. How many times do I have to say that? I just have a different take on it than you. Why does that make me a bad person? I've never once justified his behavior and said it was okay.

[Jennifer3141]

Again, I've NEVER said he was right or it was okay because he was her father. I've said that I, personally, from watching the video, think he was dealing with a child who had repeatedly been deceptive and disobedient. He was lost and behaved in an abusive manner.

 

I don't see the sexual component. I know that some experts agree with me. I know that most on this board disagree with me. That's okay. I haven't insulted any of those people. Please don't insult me because I don't agree with you.

 

Again, I've never said it was just discipline. Yes, he was being a bully and abusive. How many times do I have to say that? I just have a different take on it than you. Why does that make me a bad person? I've never once justified his behavior and said it was okay.

 

Cheryl, so many posters are having a hard time with your writings on this topic for a couple of reasons.

 

You don't see the sexualization. I get that. It gives me the creeps that you don't but to each his/her own perspective.

 

But you seem to spend a LOT of time justifying this man's behavior. And we are trying to say to you (over and over and over) that the child's behavior is irrelevant. That was a fully grown adult male who presumably is capable of reason. You don't get to just repeatedly "snap" and beat the crud out of your child. That's not "discipline gone wrong." It is abuse.

 

Yes, 16 year olds can be annoyingly defiant. But as the adult in the family, you don't get to commit a GREATER offense because you've lost your patience. You.walk.away. The father is not "lost." He's an abuser. You are trying to make his to be some sort of victim by labeling him, "lost." He's not missing. He's right the flip there on the tape beating his child with a belt. That's not "lost."

[Joanne]

The reason I'm trying to clarify my position is because people keep quoting me and saying that I'm excusing this as discipline. I'm not. And yes, there is a distinction in discipline gone wrong and malicious abuse. I'm met many healing people who said so. I don't advertise the fact like some, but I have extensive history and background with abused people (adults and kids). Plus, I have my own situation. I thought it was abuse so in my child's mind in was abuse. I had to get over that as an adult. I can easily see the difference.

 

I keep re-stating my pov because people keep quoting and taking my opinions out of context, and some even attack me personally because they don't agree with me. I've attacked anyone personally, even those I disagree with strongly and those who have an opposite viewpoint than myself. I think what even the "experts" on this board seem to forget is that none of us is an authority on this specific case. If they were it would be illegal for them to be discussing it on this forum.

 

I've gone into more detail in my posts regarding my beliefs because it's been obvious that my opinions have hurt some people's feelings and offended some people. I've agreed to disagree, but I keep getting my opinions twisted and being attacked. How can we discuss a topic in full if those with differing opinions are attacked and their words twisted beyond recognition of their meaning? Maybe we need a "Just want to vent and don't want any opinions different than mine" board.

 

 

No one, unless there are deleted posts I am not aware of, has attacked you personally. No one has treated your posts differently than any others in the thread. It is a discussion; people disagree with your content. They are discussing that content; not YOU.

 

I am reading your posts in entirety and accurately. I disagree with several of the foundational assumptions that form your opinion on this matter. THAT is what I am posting about.

[Aelwydd]

Again, I've NEVER said he was right or it was okay because he was her father. I've said that I, personally, from watching the video, think he was dealing with a child who had repeatedly been deceptive and disobedient. He was lost and behaved in an abusive manner.

 

I don't see the sexual component. I know that some experts agree with me. I know that most on this board disagree with me. That's okay. I haven't insulted any of those people. Please don't insult me because I don't agree with you.

 

Again, I've never said it was just discipline. Yes, he was being a bully and abusive. How many times do I have to say that? I just have a different take on it than you. Why does that make me a bad person? I've never once justified his behavior and said it was okay.

 

Where have I insulted you? I have disagreed with you--vehemently--but that's not the same as insulting you. I didn't call you any names, or used sarcasm towards you. Where are you getting this?

 

Also, which "experts" agree with you that an older man spanking a teen girl, telling her he's going to beat her until she submits, and using vulgar language, isn't a form of sexual violence? Please, share.

 

You are minimizing what he did, by saying he just "got lost" in anger. Tell me, does "getting lost" explain the many other times he beat her before and after? Ms. Hallie Adams has stated that this was not a one-time occurrence, but merely one event in a cycle of violence. That's how she knew to set that camera up, because she recognized the signs. She couldn't have learned those signs unless she'd seen that behavior before, on multiple occasions.

 

You maintain that he was all about trying to turn her away from what she did wrong.

 

Here's my theory: he was and is, an angry, damaged person, who couldn't contain his rage in both the public and private spheres 100% of the time. So, his anger and nastiness festered inside him, until just the right trigger set it off into a rage of hitting, cursing, and threats.

 

It is important that you realize what she did was not the origin of his anger. She was merely the convenient outlet for it.

 

That is the difference between discipline and abuse, and why his reaction to her offense was ALL OUT OF PROPORTION. A normal, healthy person does not fly off and beat someone up because they download illegal music. Ok? Let's dispense with this notion that his actions were fueled by anything so logical and upstanding as mere correction of his daughter. It was fueled by his own inner rage and hatred.

 

I can't tell you the cause of those emotions (that's his story to tell), but I can recognize them. As I'm positive any expert could as well.

Edited November 4, 2011 by Aelwydd

[NanceXToo]

So, did my post just get utterly lost in this thread, or does everybody here have me on ignore? lol. Was hoping for at least some thoughts/feedback on my post at the very bottom of page 16 of this thread!

[Jennifer3141]

I think Cheryl was hurt by one of my posts.

 

And although I regret that she felt hurt by it, I stand by my assertation that DH and I very consciously have chosen not to expose our children to anyone who would look at that video and not see the sexual component to that attack. It's part of the cosmology of our parenting and it is something we have both had to deeply examine within a few outside relationships.

[Cheryl in NM]

Cheryl, so many posters are having a hard time with your writings on this topic for a couple of reasons.

 

You don't see the sexualization. I get that. It gives me the creeps that you don't but to each his/her own perspective.

 

But you seem to spend a LOT of time justifying this man's behavior. And we are trying to say to you (over and over and over) that the child's behavior is irrelevant. That was a fully grown adult male who presumably is capable of reason. You don't get to just repeatedly "snap" and beat the crud out of your child. That's not "discipline gone wrong." It is abuse.

 

Yes, 16 year olds can be annoyingly defiant. But as the adult in the family, you don't get to commit a GREATER offense because you've lost your patience. You.walk.away. The father is not "lost." He's an abuser. You are trying to make his to be some sort of victim by labeling him, "lost." He's not missing. He's right the flip there on the tape beating his child with a belt. That's not "lost."

 

I agree, he abused his daughter, probably more than once like she said. I've not justified the behavior, I've offered an explanation. I've never said he "snapped". I've never said this was a one time thing. I've never said what he did was right.

 

Of course, on the Today show Hilary said that this happened for a period of time. She admitted to downloading illegal music she said it wasn't available in the US so what was she supposed to do? She still has no remorse for the offense. How infuriating is that as a parent? Still doesn't justify his actions. Hilary says she wants her father to get help.

[Jennifer3141]

I agree, he abused his daughter, probably more than once like she said. I've not justified the behavior, I've offered an explanation. I've never said he "snapped". I've never said this was a one time thing. I've never said what he did was right.

 

Of course, on the Today show Hilary said that this happened for a period of time. She admitted to downloading illegal music she said it wasn't available in the US so what was she supposed to do? She still has no remorse for the offense. How infuriating is that as a parent? Still doesn't justify his actions. Hilary says she wants her father to get help.

 

But Cheryl, you keep calling him "lost." We're calling him an abuser. I don't see you as making that distinction.

 

The "lost" label implies you have either empathy or sympathy for the father. And that makes several of us uncomfortable.

[Jennifer3141]

So, did my post just get utterly lost in this thread, or does everybody here have me on ignore? lol. Was hoping for at least some thoughts/feedback on my post at the very bottom of page 16 of this thread!

 

Nance, I read it! DH and I had a brief discussion about it even. I've been to that site before since we've always tried to approach parenting from a more AP viewpoint.

 

I have a running, constant discussion of spanking almost every day in my head. I don't want to completely derail this thread, nor would I ever consider a belt "spanking" but meet me for coffee/tea next week and let's spend an afternoon talking about this!!! :lol::lol::lol:

[Cheryl in NM]

Where have I insulted you? I have disagreed with you--vehemently--but that's not the same as insulting you. I didn't call you any names, or used sarcasm towards you. Where are you getting this?

 

Also, which "experts" agree with you that an older man spanking a teen girl, telling her he's going to beat her until she submits, and using vulgar language, isn't a form of sexual violence? Please, share.

 

You are minimizing what he did, by saying he just "got lost" in anger. Tell me, does "getting lost" explain the many other times he beat her before and after? Ms. Hallie Adams has stated that this was not a one-time occurrence, but merely one event in a cycle of violence. That's how she knew to set that camera up, because she recognized the signs. She couldn't have learned those signs unless she'd seen that behavior before, on multiple occasions.

 

You maintain that he was all about trying to turn her away from what she did wrong.

 

Here's my theory: he was and is, an angry, damaged person, who couldn't contain his rage in both the public and private spheres 100% of the time. So, his anger and nastiness festered inside him, until just the right trigger set it off into a rage of hitting, cursing, and threats.

 

It is important that you realize what she did was not the origin of his anger. She was merely the convenient outlet for it.

 

That is the difference between discipline and abuse, and why his reaction to her offense was ALL OUT OF PROPORTION. A normal, healthy person does not fly off and beat someone up because they download illegal music. Ok? Let's dispense with this notion that his actions were fueled by anything so logical and upstanding as mere correction of his daughter. It was fueled by his own inner rage and hatred.

 

I can't tell you the cause of those emotions (that's his story to tell), but I can recognize them. As I'm positive any expert could as well.

 

You don't even know the girl's name. It's Hilary, SHE set up the camera. The mom is Hallie and SHE did NOT set up a camera. You are so emotional because i don't agree with you that you can't even pay attention to the story. My posts speak for themselves. I've repeated them almost verbatim ad naseum. Repeating them or explaining them further isn't going to help. Continued discussion isn't going to help. We disagree.

 

I'm sorry, I wasn't clear. I didn't mean you were insulting. There have been some insults and sarcasm. I can disagree with out saying you are disturbed to believe what you believe. That is insulting.

[Lovedtodeath]

So, did my post just get utterly lost in this thread, or does everybody here have me on ignore? lol. Was hoping for at least some thoughts/feedback on my post at the very bottom of page 16 of this thread!

Well, I am not reading the whole thread, so I probably lost it. My pages don't match up. What number is it?

[Cheryl in NM]

But Cheryl, you keep calling him "lost." We're calling him an abuser. I don't see you as making that distinction.

 

The "lost" label implies you have either empathy or sympathy for the father. And that makes several of us uncomfortable.

 

I've called him "lost" once. I've said he abused his daughter several times. I do have empathy for him. He was out of control and beside himself. I've felt that way, only I didn't do what he did. I turned that feeling in on myself and suffered 5 years of depression and quit parenting all of the kids. I missed my kids childhood because I knew I couldn't abuse a deceptive, disobedience, oppositionally defiant child and I didn't know what to do. All the counselors and therapists told us to let her do what she was doing. Honestly, we received absolutely NO help from the 5 different professionals we saw. I understand what I think he felt. I disagree with what he did.

[Joanne]

I agree, he abused his daughter, probably more than once like she said. I've not justified the behavior, I've offered an explanation. I've never said he "snapped". I've never said this was a one time thing. I've never said what he did was right.

 

Of course, on the Today show Hilary said that this happened for a period of time. She admitted to downloading illegal music she said it wasn't available in the US so what was she supposed to do? She still has no remorse for the offense. How infuriating is that as a parent? Still doesn't justify his actions. Hilary says she wants her father to get help.

 

:confused::001_huh: Remorse for the offense? Nothing a minor child could do justifies what happened to her. Nothing. Her "offense" does not matter.

 

I've got a child with a serious area of concern and a pattern that will get that child in (serious) trouble if that child doesn't change it soon. I'm infuriated often. I don't beat my kids. Ever.

[Cheryl in NM]

So, did my post just get utterly lost in this thread, or does everybody here have me on ignore? lol. Was hoping for at least some thoughts/feedback on my post at the very bottom of page 16 of this thread!

 

I referenced it. I just don't agree with it and I've had my hands full defending my actual words that keep getting twisted.

 

I am not aroused when I spank my child. My child is not aroused when they receive a spanking. I don't consider my butt an erogenous zone. I don't consider getting spanked in the bedroom a sexual act, I understand some do. I'm also not saying I'm right or wrong. I don't think there is a right or wrong here, regarding spanking being sexual abuse of a child. I don't think it is. I know some think it is. So they won't spank their kids and I'll spank mine and I bet our kids turn out similar.

[Aelwydd]

So, did my post just get utterly lost in this thread, or does everybody here have me on ignore? lol. Was hoping for at least some thoughts/feedback on my post at the very bottom of page 16 of this thread!

 

I read it, Nance, and in fact, I think it's one of those things that should be so easy to understand, that people trip over it. I mean, hello, common sense that buttocks are a sexualized and erotic part of the body.

 

To put it in a frame of reference, I've taught my son that nobody has the right to touch his genitals without his permission. That includes his doctor and his dad and myself. There's a reason I don't help my son wash himself during bath time anymore, and why on the rare occasions where there is a health issue (like when he once had a swollen testicle from an infection), I never presume to touch him without his express permission. It doesn't matter that I'm his parent--it's his body, and it's a very vulnerable thing for him to allow someone access to that part of him, and I respect that. So does his dad.

 

But, if I turn around and use that same logic--the buttocks are also a highly sexualized area and associated in many ways with erotic behavior--and say, I don't feel free to spank him or grab him in that area, many people scoff at that. Even while agreeing that if a stranger did that, it'd be WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.

 

I did spank my son when he was younger, and I regret it. I never used anything but my hand, and always when he had clothes on. I still don't like that I did it. And not long ago, my ds approached my dh and I and solemnly told us he didn't think it was right for adults to hit children on their butts (his words!). I find I agree with him more and more, and that means that I owe him an apology.

 

Yet, I was raised to believe that spanking is acceptable, and I find it hard to say that it is never a legitimate form of punishment. It goes against a lot of my upbringing.

 

So you see how something that should be so simple (butts are sexual, therefore parents hitting kids butts is not kosher) runs head long into cultural conditioning that makes an BIG exception, mostly for the sake of "discipline" according to ol' time religion.

[Joanne]

I referenced it. I just don't agree with it and I've had my hands full defending my actual words that keep getting twisted.

 

I am not aroused when I spank my child. My child is not aroused when they receive a spanking. I don't consider my butt an erogenous zone. I don't consider getting spanked in the bedroom a sexual act, I understand some do. I'm also not saying I'm right or wrong. I don't think there is a right or wrong here, regarding spanking being sexual abuse of a child. I don't think it is. I know some think it is. So they won't spank their kids and I'll spank mine and I bet our kids turn out similar.

 

None of this is about spanking for me. Do you not see the difference in an adult male beating a female teen on the bottom vs. "spanking" preschoolers and toddlers?

 

The age, gender, and physiological realities are what makes the Judge's behavior a sexual crime; not whether he had an erection or was motivated by sexual thoughts.

[Cheryl in NM]

:confused::001_huh: Remorse for the offense? Nothing a minor child could do justifies what happened to her. Nothing. Her "offense" does not matter.

 

I've got a child with a serious area of concern and a pattern that will get that child in (serious) trouble if that child doesn't change it soon. I'm infuriated often. I don't beat my kids. Ever.

 

Point out where I have said that her disobedience justified his actions! Point out where I have said this is abuse. Good luck counting that up in my many posts in this thread.

 

Your post is the perfect example of what I'm saying. I've maintained from my first post that this was abuse, but people keeping posting (like you post here) that I don't think it was abuse. :confused: It's looking deliberate at this point.

[MelanieM]

The beating he gave her actually is not illegal where he lives (someone posted a link in the first few pages of this thread). Whether or not we agree with it doesn't change the legality of it.

 

I was speaking to whether or not it is legal in Canada, which was a question asked several pages back.

 

I wanted to address your questions one by one because your above post is the perfect example of "if you read my posts entirely you wouldn't be asking the questions you are."

 

Again, I did read all of your posts. The fact that I don't agree much of what you've written, or perhaps what your perception is of how your posts come across, doesn't mean I'm not reading them.

 

Honestly, you keep saying that you don't mean X, then repeating things that sound an awful lot like X. Like in the below example:

 

I agree, he abused his daughter, probably more than once like she said. I've not justified the behavior, I've offered an explanation. I've never said he "snapped". I've never said this was a one time thing. I've never said what he did was right.

 

Of course, on the Today show Hilary said that this happened for a period of time. She admitted to downloading illegal music she said it wasn't available in the US so what was she supposed to do? She still has no remorse for the offense. How infuriating is that as a parent? Still doesn't justify his actions. Hilary says she wants her father to get help.

 

You say you are not trying to justify the behaviour, then follow that with an explanation to justify why the parent might be infuriated. *This* is what (I think) most people are objecting to.

[Cheryl in NM]

None of this is about spanking for me. Do you not see the difference in an adult male beating a female teen on the bottom vs. "spanking" preschoolers and toddlers?

 

The age, gender, and physiological realities are what makes the Judge's behavior a sexual crime; not whether he had an erection or was motivated by sexual thoughts.

 

I've also said that I don't believe a teenager should be spanked. Are you even reading my posts before responding to me? I've read every word of every post in this thread. Those I've responded to I've read more than once.

 

I see it as physical abuse, not sexual abuse.

 

It is an adult spanking preschoolers and toddlers. The adult is much bigger than them. Why then would it be more traumatic physically for a teen to received a spanking than a young child? But, again, Hilary didn't receive a spanking. She also was not raped or sexually assaulted, in my opinion or her local authorities opinion.

[Cheryl in NM]

I was speaking to whether or not it is legal in Canada, which was a question asked several pages back.

 

 

 

Again, I did read all of your posts. The fact that I don't agree much of what you've written, or perhaps what your perception is of how your posts come across, doesn't mean I'm not reading them.

 

I'm not asking you to agree, but your questions had been answered several times in my previous posts.

 

 

Honestly, you keep saying that you don't mean X, then repeating things that sound an awful lot like X. Like in the below example:

 

 

 

You say you are not trying to justify the behaviour, then follow that with an explanation to justify why the parent might be infuriated. *This* is what (I think) most people are objecting to.

 

Justify means to make right. I've offered what I think is an explanation. I've never said he was justified or right.

[Aelwydd]

You don't even know the girl's name. It's Hilary, SHE set up the camera. The mom is Hallie and SHE did NOT set up a camera. You are so emotional because i don't agree with you that you can't even pay attention to the story.

 

Now, who is being condescending? You are correct, I mixed up the mom's and daughter's names. They are similar in my mind, and I worked third shift last night, so I am very tired. However, that doesn't invalidate the rest of my points.

 

My posts speak for themselves. I've repeated them almost verbatim ad naseum. Repeating them or explaining them further isn't going to help. Continued discussion isn't going to help. We disagree.

 

I'm sorry, I wasn't clear. I didn't mean you were insulting. There have been some insults and sarcasm. I can disagree with out saying you are disturbed to believe what you believe. That is insulting.[/Quote]I'm not asking you to repeat yourself. I'm asking you to defend what you've already stated (like naming the experts you referenced). I am addressing each of your points, and debating them, because I feel they are based on an erroneous premise (i.e., this man had good intentions, but just let his emotions get the better of him).

[Joanne]

Point out where I have said that her disobedience justified his actions! Point out where I have said this is abuse. Good luck counting that up in my many posts in this thread.

 

Your post is the perfect example of what I'm saying. I've maintained from my first post that this was abuse, but people keeping posting (like you post here) that I don't think it was abuse. :confused: It's looking deliberate at this point.

 

:chillpill: Cheryl, I am questioning your actual content. Your inclusion of her "offense" (and even using that word) demonstrates why I disagree with your perspective.

 

If it is abuse, what she did "wrong" does not matter. Even mentioning it suggests that you give credible weight to the idea that he was so concerned about her recent downturn of behavior that this was discipline gone wrong vs. simply abuse.

[MelanieM]

Justify means to make right. I've offered what I think is an explanation. I've never said he was justified or right.

 

A justification is also an explanation meant to defend. Is that not what you're doing? Offering a defense for this frazzled father who has had to deal too often with a troubled child, and so finds himself abusing her? Whether or not you think you're agreeing with him, you do seem to be defending him. For some people, that's just hard to swallow.

 

It's like when people offer up apologies, followed by a "but..." "I'm sorry I beat you with a belt, but you didn't listen to me and I had to disipline you..." Um, not much of an apology, really. (Not that this man even went so far as to apologize at all.)

Edited November 4, 2011 by MelanieM

[Joy at Home]

:chillpill: Cheryl, I am questioning your actual content. Your inclusion of her "offense" (and even using that word) demonstrates why I disagree with your perspective.

 

If it is abuse, what she did "wrong" does not matter. Even mentioning it suggests that you give credible weight to the idea that he was so concerned about her recent downturn of behavior that this was discipline gone wrong vs. simply abuse.

 

:iagree: Exactly. You continue to qualify by focusing on her behavior, presumably to sympathize with his motives ("discipline gone wrong"). I think this is where you're losing us, even though you admit it's abuse.

 

Lisa

[PeacefulChaos]

:confused: Really, the phrase "Take it like a woman" has some sexual connotation? I never would have thought that. Isn't that just the equivalent of "be tough" or "stop crying" like when someone tells a boy "Take it like a man"? Girls said to to eachother when I was a teen if someone was whining about something stupid or going on and on a sports injury. I sure haven't been exposed to any situation where someone would mean that sexually.

:iagree: in general. I will admit that after reading all the replies, I can see how it could be taken as a sexual comment, but I didn't take it as such when watching the video. I may not be correct in my assumption, but that was just how I saw it. To me it seemed more of a 'toughen up' type thing. Just like 'take it like a man'.

I completely agree. 16 is way too old (NOT that there is EVER an appropriate age for what went on here).

:iagree:

 

Abuse is about power and control.

 

So is rape.

 

Therefore, it is completely comparable.

 

This had NOTHING to do with discipline. That was merely the excuse. This was about power, control, dominance. This was about breaking someone, about terror, about pain. Discipline is about teaching.

:iagree: -your last segment in particular. :)

 

The question of the mother being complicit is not so easy. I don't like seeing mothers being put on trial for failing to protect their children from their father. The reason being is that they are likely being abused themselves and that can really do a number on someone mentally. I get that it's hard to imagine NOT protecting your child in such a situation--I feel the same way, but she may have thought she was.

:iagree:

 

So, did my post just get utterly lost in this thread, or does everybody here have me on ignore? lol. Was hoping for at least some thoughts/feedback on my post at the very bottom of page 16 of this thread!

I saw it and I didn't click the link, but I read what was there. I don't necessarily agree, so I didn't want to really say anything. I think that at age 16 a spanking is inappropriate, partly for sexual reasons. I think the switch to that happens sometime in the pre-adolescent phase, and I don't think spanking is something that is appropriate after the age of 9-10. I think that at that point there are much better, more effective ways of disciplining children. I don't, however, find all spankings to be sexual abuse. Honestly, the thought sounds rather absurd to me. No offense to anyone who disagrees intended. That's just my pov.

I will admit that I find it...interesting... that there are those who find the backside to be a sexualized area, like the breasts, while there are others who argue that the breasts have been over-sexualized in the American culture, and therefore should only be looked at as means for feeding children (breastfeeding in public and the like). Its just ironic to see two very different sides of the same coin.

I personally do not find the backside to be a sexualized area in the context that is described in what I read of the post. Your post, from the link, I mean.

None of this is about spanking for me. Do you not see the difference in an adult male beating a female teen on the bottom vs. "spanking" preschoolers and toddlers?

 

The age, gender, and physiological realities are what makes the Judge's behavior a sexual crime; not whether he had an erection or was motivated by sexual thoughts.

 

:iagree: bolded in particular

 

I think that this was definitely abuse. Of several forms. The fact that this is a 16 year old girl does take it a little into the sexual realm, imo, whether that was in his mind at all or not. But like I said before, I think that the mom was, in her own twisted way, trying to help her daughter. I think she was misled and wrong, for sure, but I can't speak for what her life was like or what abuse she had endured, so maybe she did all she could and thought it was good enough. Who knows?

I will say, that I am seeing this from the perspective of someone who has not been abused. I was spanked as a kid, but it was never abuse. So I can see how my viewpoint of this may be a little different, I guess, though I think there is no arguing that this was definitely abuse. :(

 

I don't know if anyone had been seeing things about it on the news also, but he will not be tried at all because the statute of limitations is 7 years, and they are outside the realm of being able to prosecute for that. They are looking over some of his former cases to be sure that no rulings were mishandled, and he's up for reelection in 3 years.

[Aelwydd]

I just want to give you a big hug. I'm so sorry for you past.

 

I meant to respond to you earlier. Thank you for your kindness. I don't feel "sad" about most of the time. I mentioned I confronted my father (and my mom, who participated), and we both cried, and he finally, finally apologized. He admitted feeling guilt for what he did, and that is enough for me to forgive and patch our relationship.

 

It's just that this video brought it all back in a really visceral way. I hurt for that girl, especially since her dad is still in his defensive, I-did-nothing-wrong-it's-her-fault frame of mind.

 

There have been times though, when in an argument with my dh, he got really angry, or raised his voice, and I would tense up or flinch in response. On some level, I still react to male anger. I still expect to get hit for being defiant. Even though my dh would not ever do such a thing.

 

I guess some things take a very long time to unlearn.

[Cheryl in NM]

:chillpill: Cheryl, I am questioning your actual content. Your inclusion of her "offense" (and even using that word) demonstrates why I disagree with your perspective.

 

If it is abuse, what she did "wrong" does not matter. Even mentioning it suggests that you give credible weight to the idea that he was so concerned about her recent downturn of behavior that this was discipline gone wrong vs. simply abuse.

 

A justification is also an explanation meant to defend. Is that not what you're doing? Offering a defense for this frazzled father who has had to deal too often with a troubled child, and so finds himself abusing her? Whether or not you think you're agreeing with him, you do seem to be defending him. For some people, that's just hard to swallow.

 

It's like when people offer up apologies, followed by a "but..." "I'm sorry I beat you with a belt, but you didn't listen to me and I had to disipline you..." Um, not much of an apology, really. (Not that this man even went so far as to apologize at all.)

 

I'm sorry, I must not be clear in my posts. The reason Hilary's offense is part of this for me is because I believe the father had the intention of disciplining her. If you don't believe it is discipline gone horribly wrong into abuse then of course the offense doesn't matter to you. I understand not everyone sees it that way.

 

FTR, as of post 232 the word abuse had been mentioned 78 times, 25 of them by me. I do believe this is abuse. I just happen to think there are varying degrees of abuse. I am not and have said this before offering a defense for this father. Just because a word "can" mean something doesn't mean that is the intent behind it when someone uses it. ESPECIALLY when that person KEEPS SAYING that they don't mean it that way!

[jillian]

I meant to respond to you earlier. Thank you for your kindness. I don't feel "sad" about most of the time. I mentioned I confronted my father (and my mom, who participated), and we both cried, and he finally, finally apologized. He admitted feeling guilt for what he did, and that is enough for me to forgive and patch our relationship.

 

It's just that this video brought it all back in a really visceral way. I hurt for that girl, especially since her dad is still in his defensive, I-did-nothing-wrong-it's-her-fault frame of mind.

 

There have been times though, when in an argument with my dh, he got really angry, or raised his voice, and I would tense up or flinch in response. On some level, I still react to male anger. I still expect to get hit for being defiant. Even though my dh would not ever do such a thing.

 

I guess some things take a very long time to unlearn.

I definitely agree with it takes a long time to unlearn certain things and reactions.

[Joanne]

I'm sorry, I must not be clear in my posts. The reason Hilary's offense is part of this for me is because I believe the father had the intention of disciplining her. If you don't believe it is discipline gone horribly wrong into abuse then of course the offense doesn't matter to you. I understand not everyone sees it that way.

 

FTR, as of post 232 the word abuse had been mentioned 78 times, 25 of them by me. I do believe this is abuse. I just happen to think there are varying degrees of abuse. I am not and have said this before offering a defense for this father. Just because a word "can" mean something doesn't mean that is the intent behind it when someone uses it. ESPECIALLY when that person KEEPS SAYING that they don't mean it that way!

 

Cheryl, you are clear. I don't understand why you think if "we" disagree, we are not reading your posts correctly, at all, or skip parts.

 

I am engaging with your ideas on this topic. I read every word. I understand every world. It is your actual *content* that I am responding to.

 

You have been here long enough to know that is how message boards "work." I am not sure I understand why you take disagreement personally or assume we aren't accurately hearing you.

 

I am personally against the idea that "degrees of abuse" as meaningful. In practice, I've seen the idea as being damaging. Abuse IS ABUSE. It does not have to be at (as you referenced) a Child Called It level.

[Cheryl in NM]

Cheryl, you are clear. I don't understand why you think if "we" disagree, we are not reading your posts correctly, at all, or skip parts.

 

I am engaging with your ideas on this topic. I read every word. I understand every world. It is your actual *content* that I am responding to.

 

You have been here long enough to know that is how message boards "work." I am not sure I understand why you take disagreement personally or assume we aren't accurately hearing you.

 

I am personally against the idea that "degrees of abuse" as meaningful. In practice, I've seen the idea as being damaging. Abuse IS ABUSE. It does not have to be at (as you referenced) a Child Called It level.

 

I think people have not read my posts because I keep getting lectured that this was not discipline, it was abuse. I've said it was abuse more than anyone else in this thread.

 

I think people have not read my posts because I keep getting accused of justifying the behavior after I've said several times that I am not justifying the behavior.

 

I haven't taken the disagreement personally. What I've taken personally are the "are you insane" comments. And the "I worry for your kids". An the "I'd never let my kids be around you". That is insulting. The thought that, because my ideas differ, I am a monster. I've receive pms from people agreeing with me but not wishing to enter this thread. The same opinions I have regarding this video are all over the internet right now. I've had IRL conversations with people that agree with my pov. It just so happens that most of this message board agrees with me on this topic. That doesn't mean I'm a monster or sick. I haven't relayed that to or about anyone that disagreed with me on this thread. I really don't understand the sexualization thing. I understand many do. I haven't vilified anyone.

 

It is many people that responded to my posts in that thread that have not read my entire posts. If they had, they wouldn't make the assumptions they had or asked the questions they had because the questions were answered in the post.

 

I agree that abuse is abuse and it is always wrong. But I also believe that reconciliation is possible is some instances. In A Child Called It, the parent was a physcopath. There's probably not chance for reconciliation there. In this instance with Hilary, there is probably a chance for reconciliation. The father has apologized, she didn't believe it. Her choice. The father thinks what he did was necessary to change her behavior. None of us on this board agree. The whole situation is made more suspicious because she told her dad that if he took her car away she would publish the video. Did you hear that? She is, what, 24 years old and her dad is still providing her financial support and a Mercedes! He told her that if she quit school he'd withdraw financial support. She told him "if you do that I'm releasing the video". There is so much more to this story than any of us know.

[Aelwydd]

The whole situation is made more suspicious because she told her dad that if he took her car away she would publish the video. Did you hear that? She is, what, 24 years old and her dad is still providing her financial support and a Mercedes! He told her that if she quit school he'd withdraw financial support. She told him "if you do that I'm releasing the video". There is so much more to this story than any of us know.

 

Actually, I knew all of that already. And the point remains, that none of that excuses, or in any way, diminishes the severity of him physically assaulting her person, while cursing and terrorizing her when she was 16. I agree that she may be acting like an entitled, indulged brat, but that doesn't make him any less of an abuser.

 

She could be the snottiest, rudest, most rebellious teenager--and that still wouldn't have made his boiling rage-fest any more understandable in my eyes.

 

I've dealt with many crass, rude, pushy, selfish, demanding, and even downright evil people in my life. I've had to live with a person who had a serious personality disorder who made life a living hell.

 

And I still didn't and do not find the appropriate response to be taking out a leather belt and beating that person, while yelling, and then going out and finding a bigger belt to beat them with again. If I did consider that to be an option, then I'd take myself to a therapist--because I'd have bigger issues than the person I'm thinking about beating up.

[Cheryl in NM]

Actually, I knew all of that already. And the point remains, that none of that excuses, or in any way, diminishes the severity of him physically assaulting her person, while cursing and terrorizing her when she was 16. I agree that she may be acting like an entitled, indulged brat, but that doesn't make him any less of an abuser.

 

She could be the snottiest, rudest, most rebellious teenager--and that still wouldn't have made his boiling rage-fest any more understandable in my eyes.

 

I've dealt with many crass, rude, pushy, selfish, demanding, and even downright evil people in my life. I've had to live with a person who had a serious personality disorder who made life a living hell.

 

And I still didn't and do not find the appropriate response to be taking out a leather belt and beating that person, while yelling, and then going out and finding a bigger belt to beat them with again. If I did consider that to be an option, then I'd take myself to a therapist--because I'd have bigger issues than the person I'm thinking about beating up.

 

:iagree: I don't find that it excuses his behavior and I don't find his behavior appropriate in this situation. Are you saying that I do?

[Joanne]

I think people have not read my posts because I keep getting lectured I haven't taken the disagreement personally. What I've taken personally are the "are you insane" comments. And the "I worry for your kids". An the "I'd never let my kids be around you".

 

 

I have not done any of those things, although you might perceive my posts as "lecture".

 

I've receive pms from people agreeing with me but not wishing to enter this thread. The same opinions I have regarding this video are all over the internet right now.

 

What I am about to post is about a personal peeve of mine. I've never been fond of the interent discussion tactic in which a poster implies weight to their perspective because of "PMs" that agree. I don't doubt the PMs, but I'm not impressed when a poster offers that information. If people agree with you, they can post. Or not. But it doesn't convince or sway me towards a view.

[MelanieM]

The whole situation is made more suspicious because she told her dad that if he took her car away she would publish the video. Did you hear that? She is, what, 24 years old and her dad is still providing her financial support and a Mercedes! He told her that if she quit school he'd withdraw financial support. She told him "if you do that I'm releasing the video". There is so much more to this story than any of us know.

 

What do you mean by "more suspicious"? What relevance, if any, do you think this has to the behaviour shown in the video?

[Joanne]

:iagree: I don't find that it excuses his behavior and I don't find his behavior appropriate in this situation. Are you saying that I do?

 

I think that what some of us are saying comes from some of your posts that include wording such as "she's not remorseful for her offense" (regarding the downloading of music). If it doesn't matter, why mention it?

 

Your posts tend to read that his "discipline" gone bad is mitigated by his infuration (your word, used earlier) over her behavior.

[Joy at Home]

I think people have not read my posts because I keep getting accused of justifying the behavior after I've said several times that I am not justifying the behavior.

 

I haven't taken the disagreement personally. What I've taken personally are the "are you insane" comments. And the "I worry for your kids". An the "I'd never let my kids be around you". That is insulting. The thought that, because my ideas differ, I am a monster. I've receive pms from people agreeing with me but not wishing to enter this thread. The same opinions I have regarding this video are all over the internet right now. I've had IRL conversations with people that agree with my pov. It just so happens that most of this message board agrees with me on this topic. That doesn't mean I'm a monster or sick. I haven't relayed that to or about anyone that disagreed with me on this thread. I really don't understand the sexualization thing. I understand many do. I haven't vilified anyone.

 

I agree that abuse is abuse and it is always wrong. But I also believe that reconciliation is possible is some instances. In A Child Called It, the parent was a physcopath. There's probably not chance for reconciliation there. In this instance with Hilary, there is probably a chance for reconciliation. The father has apologized, she didn't believe it. Her choice. The father thinks what he did was necessary to change her behavior. None of us on this board agree. The whole situation is made more suspicious because she told her dad that if he took her car away she would publish the video. Did you hear that? She is, what, 24 years old and her dad is still providing her financial support and a Mercedes! He told her that if she quit school he'd withdraw financial support. She told him "if you do that I'm releasing the video". There is so much more to this story than any of us know.

 

Has anyone in this thread insulted you as you say? Unless they did it by pm, I have not seen this at all. The nature of the board is to engage others in their opinions, their words. I'm sorry you feel insulted, as personal insults have no place here. But challenging your opinions does, and what I find so frustrating is that you continue to cover yourself with "yes, it's abuse", but never without qualifying it by questioning her motives or behavior. You may not be "justifying" it, but you sure are giving him a lot more consideration than I'm comfortable with.

 

I'm not sure I agree with your comment that most people on the board agree with you, unless that was a typo.

 

 

 

Lisa

Edited November 4, 2011 by Momto5girls

[Cheryl in NM]

Has anyone in this thread insulted you as you say? Unless they did it by pm, I have not seen this at all. The nature of the board is to engage others in their opinions, their words. I'm sorry you feel insulted, as personal insults have no place here. But challenging your opinions does, and what I find so frustrating is that you continue to cover yourself with "yes, it's abuse", but never without qualifying it by questioning her motives or behavior. You may not be "justifying" it, but you sure are giving him a lot more consideration than I'm comfortable with.

 

I'm not sure I agree with your comment that most people on the board agree with you, unless that was a typo.

 

I would also hope that if anyone is making spiteful comments to you as you say, you would report it as there is no place for that here. You are entitled to your opinions.

 

Lisa

 

Wow! You are right, BIG typo! I meant disagree.

 

If you've been following this thread all 3 days you will notice that I have been defending myself and my pov against several people. I just realized this morning that this turned from the actual thread about the video and abuse to bickering about wording and other people's opinions. I just realized that I've been the lone dissenter for 2 days now. That's stressful. It makes one feel like a caged animal, even if one know that others agree with her.

[Cheryl in NM]

I have not done any of those things, although you might perceive my posts as "lecture".

 

What I am about to post is about a personal peeve of mine. I've never been fond of the interent discussion tactic in which a poster implies weight to their perspective because of "PMs" that agree. I don't doubt the PMs, but I'm not impressed when a poster offers that information. If people agree with you, they can post. Or not. But it doesn't convince or sway me towards a view.

 

I didn't mean it to try to sway anyone. In fact, I haven't tried to sway anyone in this thread. I've just given my pov and then spent 2 days defending it and correcting the bastardization of it.

[Impish]

I object to the ranking of levels of abuse that seems to be in your responses.

 

Abuse is abuse is abuse. Doesn't matter in the slightest if it starts out as discipline or just because there's a breathing target in the area. The motivation doesn't matter to the victim.

 

Its kinda like, "Well, its not as bad as..." When its your experience, its simply bad. Period. Pointing out that someone had it worse simply invalidates the experience, or diminishes it, and no victim/survivor deserves that.

 

That's what I've been responding to in your answers. The idea that there's a litmus test for 'bad' abuse. A sort of grading scale, if you will.

 

Terror is terror.