Holy mac n cheese! Have you seen this jerk's video?

[Cheryl in NM]

"Spanking" a 16 year old female in any form, including a belt, is abuse, including sexual.

 

That is an opinion. You are entitled to yours just as I am to mine. Somewhere in this thread someone looked up Hilary's local laws. What her dad did, while morally repugnant, isn't illegal.

 

Cheryl, I'm confused how you don't see someone saying, "Bend over and take it like a woman," as NOT sexual. That father was just a little too interested in getting Hillary's butt, IMO. He was obsessed with it and she was already crying and in pain. What more was the butt going to do except gratify this jerk in some way??

 

The rear end is where parents spank. Most spanking parents regarding non-rear end spanking as abusive. Have the child bend over lessens the risk of accidentally hitting the child on the back of the legs or the lower back. I think the "take it like a woman" was meant as "take your punishment". I see the bending over as a technicality of spanking, not something sexual. That's why I don't understand the sexual violence issue a pp brought up. If he had her remove her clothes I would question it. If he had her take off her shirt I would question it. If he had her take off all her clothes and spread her legs, THAT is sexual. I don't see spanking on the rear end as sexual. I'm curious about the thought process behind that. So when I spanked my 2 year old through his diaper I was sexually abusing him according to some of you? If not, when does spanking switch to sexual predatory behavior? I'm truly curious.

 

Then, no disrespect intended, you're wrong. Completely.

 

Frankly, it doesn't matter if the child committed an offence. Abuse is abuse is abuse. I did things wrong as a kid. Absolutely. I still didn't deserve to get beaten with a belt, punched, kicked, thrown into walls, dragged around by my hair, hit with tools...

 

Someone that uses their position of trust, authority and control to exhibit violence, to terrorize a child IS a malicious child abuser. They're doing it for their own benefit, b/c anyone with a cpl of brain cells to rub together can figure out that the KID is not getting anything positive out of it.

 

The abuser WILL claim that they were just disciplining...in the same way that a husband claims he wasn't r*ping his wife, just asserting his marital rights.

 

I've said over and over in this thread that this was abuse. I've never disagreed with that point. I agree that the father crossed the line. However, I think he lost control (he even admitted it). I don't equate what happened to Hilary to the second situation in my post that you quoted. I'm NOT saying she deserved it. I'm talking about her father's state of mind. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear about that. I see malicious abuse as hitting just because someone is alive. I think discipline sometimes gets out of hand and becomes abuse. This is what I believe happened to Hilary.

[Nakia]

Cheryl,

 

I'm not picking on you, but I think you are talking out of both sides of your mouth. On one hand you say the dad doesn't appear to be a malicious child abuser, and then you say it was abuse that was caught on film. Which is it?

[elegantlion]

Then, no disrespect intended, you're wrong. Completely.

 

Frankly, it doesn't matter if the child committed an offence. Abuse is abuse is abuse. I did things wrong as a kid. Absolutely. I still didn't deserve to get beaten with a belt, punched, kicked, thrown into walls, dragged around by my hair, hit with tools...

 

Someone that uses their position of trust, authority and control to exhibit violence, to terrorize a child IS a malicious child abuser. They're doing it for their own benefit, b/c anyone with a cpl of brain cells to rub together can figure out that the KID is not getting anything positive out of it.

 

The abuser WILL claim that they were just disciplining...in the same way that a husband claims he wasn't r*ping his wife, just asserting his marital rights.

 

:iagree: If you watch the video, which I didn't watch it all :ack2:, you will see the father raise the belt above or to his head and then swat down. He is willfully and obviously putting force behind the "spanking". This is not a person in control of anything at this point. This is what I would consider blind rage taking it out on his child.

 

I would wager if someone was doing that to your (rhetorical you) child, even if they felt the punishment was warranted, you would step in between them and stop them. Just because this is her father doesn't mean the measure is appropriate. :shudders:

[Nakia]

I might get stoned for this, but I say that mom was as guilty as the dad. I would seriously injure my dh if ever treated our daughters that way. I cannot imagine my rage, and he wouldn't want to be in arm's reach. He is bigger than me, but I know how to shoot the gun. And that's all I'm saying about that.

[bzymom]

You have taken this out of context. It is understandable because you didn't watch the video. Please, those of you who do not wish to watch the video realize that you are having an uninformed discussion.

 

What you are talking about in the bolded section is where the mother took the belt from the dad. Told the daughter to bend over the bed to receive her spanking. The mother then gives Hilary one swat with the belt and walks out, the dad follows. This mother exhibited a spanking in that very small section of the tape. It would not be considered abuse by spanking parents.

 

I understand what you are saying. My point was more that she failed to protect her child. She told her to take this abuse. She knew what was happening. I know many people who spank. I don't know one who would stand by while this was going on.

 

And I stand by my assertion that anybody, husband or not, that touched my child in such a manner would answer to me quickly and swiftly. And then the police could pick up what was left.

[Jennifer3141]

 

The rear end is where parents spank. Most spanking parents regarding non-rear end spanking as abusive. Have the child bend over lessens the risk of accidentally hitting the child on the back of the legs or the lower back. I think the "take it like a woman" was meant as "take your punishment". I see the bending over as a technicality of spanking, not something sexual. That's why I don't understand the sexual violence issue a pp brought up. If he had her remove her clothes I would question it. If he had her take off her shirt I would question it. If he had her take off all her clothes and spread her legs, THAT is sexual. I don't see spanking on the rear end as sexual. I'm curious about the thought process behind that. So when I spanked my 2 year old through his diaper I was sexually abusing him according to some of you? If not, when does spanking switch to sexual predatory behavior? I'm truly curious.

 

 

Cheryl, about 90% of where this jerk "spanked" was NOT on the buttocks so your comment that "the butt is where parents spank" doesn't quite ring true in this instance.

 

And I don't know what to do with someone who doesn't think, "Take it like a woman" isn't sexual. I really just don't. I am however grateful that my children, particularly my daughter, will not be exposed to that viewpoint as they grow.

 

It's like that famous quote about porn - I can't always define it but I know it when I see it.

[Renee in NC]

I might get stoned for this, but I say that mom was as guilty as the dad. I would seriously injure my dh if ever treated our daughters that way. I cannot imagine my rage, and he wouldn't want to be in arm's reach. He is bigger than me, but I know how to shoot the gun. And that's all I'm saying about that.

 

I saw the mother as trying to end it. She got the girl to turn over, and then refused to give the belt to Dad and did it herself. *I* think she was hoping that would be the end of it.

[Jennifer3141]

I might get stoned for this, but I say that mom was as guilty as the dad. I would seriously injure my dh if ever treated our daughters that way. I cannot imagine my rage, and he wouldn't want to be in arm's reach. He is bigger than me, but I know how to shoot the gun. And that's all I'm saying about that.

 

 

ITA. And I won't stone you either.

 

I guess I can see how Hillary made peace with her mother because her mother was possibly/probably/definitely abused too but the peace would be along the lines of, "Ok Mom. Dad was awful. I get that but I'll set the boundaries for our relationship from now on and there will be long term consequences for allowing this to happen."

 

I also guess I can see how the woman would be trapped by her husband's career and friends and influence. But goodnight. I don't think I'd give a rat's patootie at the time anyone did something like this to MY daughter. I'd serve my sentence with a smile.

[NanceXToo]

"Spanking" a 16 year old female in any form, including a belt, is abuse, including sexual.

 

I agree.

 

And I think that EVERYONE should read this...even if you end up deciding you don't agree with it, or that you don't agree with all of it,...there's some food for thought here, and some good points that deserve real consideration.

 

http://www.nospank.net/sexdngr.htm

 

Some excerpts for those who don't want to click the link:

 

Spanking, defined as slapping of the buttocks, is a form of hitting and thus of physical violence. That fact alone should make the spanking of children unacceptable by the same standards that protect adults, who are not as vulnerable. However, there is more to spanking than simply hitting: spanking also trespasses on one of the body’s most private and sexual areas—the buttocks. To fully address the wrongness of spanking children, therefore, we must consider not only the issue of physical violence, but also the issue of sexual trespass...

 

Buttocks are a sexual zone

Like women’s breasts, the buttocks are a sexual or erogenous part of the human anatomy, even though they are not actually sex organs. This is why baring one’s buttocks in public is considered indecent as well as unlawful and why their exposure in movies or on television constitutes nudity. It is also why someone who uninvitedly fondles another person’s buttocks is treated by law as a sexual offender. The sexual nature of the buttocks is explained not only by their proximity to the genitals, but also by their high concentration of nerve endings which lead directly to sexual nerve centers. Hence, the buttocks are a major locus of sexual signals...

 

Spanking as sexual violation

Since children are sexual beings and since the buttocks are a sexual region of the body, we should question the propriety of slapping children’s buttocks. We generally understand that fondling or caressing a child’s buttocks is a sexual offense (even if the child does not understand it to be so). We also know that slapping an adult’s buttocks is a sexual offense (even if the offender does not get sexual pleasure from doing so).

 

The question, then, is why slapping a child’s buttocks is not considered a sexual offense...

 

Spanking and psychosexual development

Even without sexual motives on the part of the punisher, spanking can interfere with a child’s normal sexual and psychological development. Because the buttocks are so close to the genitals and so multiply linked to sexual nerve centers, slapping them can trigger powerful and involuntary sensations of sexual pleasure. This can happen even in very young children, and even in spite of great, clearly upsetting pain...

 

Spanking and modesty

Imagine your reaction if an authority figure, having discovered some misdeed of yours, pinned you across his lap and began slapping your buttocks. Painfulness aside, most people would consider this a rude, inexcusable assault on their modesty, no matter what they had done to “deserve†it.

 

Many people might assume that children, especially very young children, are too ignorant or naive to feel such indignity, or perhaps too impressed by the physical pain of spanking to care about much else. The truth is, however, that spanking can seriously injure a child’s sense of modesty. When a child is old enough to be told by adults to act modestly (which is not merely a social requirement, but also a wise precaution against potential child molesters), that child is likely to internalize and develop modesty as a personal value that will increase with age. This value persists even though the child might lapse into immodest behavior from time to time, as most children do. Consequently, the child whose buttocks are slapped may experience deep and lasting sexual shame, especially if the punishment is done in front of others or involves a state of undress. Actually, there are some adults who consciously emphasize this humiliation as part of the punishment (and some, for that matter, who do not limit spanking to younger children or even to preteens). But just as inflicting sexual shame is an unthinkable punishment for adults in any civilized society, it is surely an outrageous way to treat children...

[AndyJoy]

And I don't know what to do with someone who doesn't think, "Take it like a woman" isn't sexual. I really just don't. I am however grateful that my children, particularly my daughter, will not be exposed to that viewpoint as they grow.

 

:confused: Really, the phrase "Take it like a woman" has some sexual connotation? I never would have thought that. Isn't that just the equivalent of "be tough" or "stop crying" like when someone tells a boy "Take it like a man"? Girls said to to eachother when I was a teen if someone was whining about something stupid or going on and on a sports injury. I sure haven't been exposed to any situation where someone would mean that sexually.

[Cheryl in NM]

Cheryl,

 

I'm not picking on you, but I think you are talking out of both sides of your mouth. On one hand you say the dad doesn't appear to be a malicious child abuser, and then you say it was abuse that was caught on film. Which is it?

 

Thank you for asking and not attacking!

 

I'm saying Hilary was abused. I'm saying that her father was trying to discipline (albeit by a method many disagree with) but that he lost control and it TURNED INTO an abusive situation. A malicious child abuser has the only intent of harming the child. I believe this father's intent was to discipline his child and hurting her was a product of that. Parents that spank know that a spanking hurts. Their intent is to impress upon their children to modify their behavior by causing that pain. A malicious child abuser only wants to hurt, is not trying to modify behavior and would hurt even if the behavior was modified and the child was perfect. It was obvious in this video that Hilary downloading illegal content was a problem that had been addressed. He was trying to modify her behavior. He was abusive and he was wrong, but his intent was correct.

 

Again, I may not understand the abused persons mentality. While I thought I was abused growing up, I was punished harshly. My parent's goal was to modify/control my behavior not hurt me just for the sake of hurting me. A malicious child abuser hurts just to hurt.

 

Does that clear up what I'm trying to say?

[NanceXToo]

I might get stoned for this, but I say that mom was as guilty as the dad. I would seriously injure my dh if ever treated our daughters that way. I cannot imagine my rage, and he wouldn't want to be in arm's reach. He is bigger than me, but I know how to shoot the gun. And that's all I'm saying about that.

 

I completely agree with you.

 

I understand what you are saying. My point was more that she failed to protect her child. She told her to take this abuse. She knew what was happening. I know many people who spank. I don't know one who would stand by while this was going on.

 

And I stand by my assertion that anybody, husband or not, that touched my child in such a manner would answer to me quickly and swiftly. And then the police could pick up what was left.

 

And with you.

 

I saw the mother as trying to end it. She got the girl to turn over, and then refused to give the belt to Dad and did it herself. *I* think she was hoping that would be the end of it.

 

And,even with you. I do think she was hoping that would end it. But when it didn't, she stood by the father every step of the way. She kept yelling at the girl to turn over, and to take it like a woman, and when she and the father moved away, you could hear them talking in the background and her agreeing with every word he said... I felt ill that any father would treat his child this way. I felt even more ill that any mother would stand by and allow it to happen.

[Mommy22alyns]

I couldn't watch the whole video. That brought back WAY more memories than I care to have resurface.

 

If DH ever tried something like that on the girls, he would have to come right through me. The mom, I'm sorry, she should have done more to try and stop him.

[Cheryl in NM]

Cheryl, about 90% of where this jerk "spanked" was NOT on the buttocks so your comment that "the butt is where parents spank" doesn't quite ring true in this instance.

 

And I don't know what to do with someone who doesn't think, "Take it like a woman" isn't sexual. I really just don't. I am however grateful that my children, particularly my daughter, will not be exposed to that viewpoint as they grow.

 

It's like that famous quote about porn - I can't always define it but I know it when I see it.

 

That's what he wanted though, was to spank her on the bottom. She repeatedly refused and didn't even try to comply. I'm NOT saying she deserved it. I'm saying that posters on this thread have said that he is a pervert for wanting her to bend over for a spanking. Obviously, after all the times he hit her, he only hit her once on the bottom.

 

You don't have to insult me to disagree with me. "Take it like a woman" means to act like a grown upf. How perverted are YOU to assume it means sex or rape? That didn't feel so good did it? I said it to make a point, not be nasty.

 

How we CHOSE to interpret others actions and words DOES NOT change their INTENT.

[Joy at Home]

Even if she pushed *his* buttons, she didn't do anything, objectively speaking, to provoke this kind of horrific verbal and physical abuse.

 

What if your learned of some evidence that she did in fact try to bait him? How would it change the situation, exactly? I still don't understand your point here. :confused:

 

Exactly. HER behavior prior to the beating is irrelevant. It neither condones nor mitigates the abuse, just as a rape victim's behavior does not justify rape. The line was crossed. They were the parents, the supposed grown ups here. They, regardless of her behavior, have the responsibility to discipline her without losing complete control.

 

Oh, and I also wanted to mention that I found the whole adult male authority figure telling a 16 year old female to get on the bed on her a**, then being told to "take it like a woman" from her own mother, and that he was going to "beat her until she submitted" to be beyond the pale. So many levels of wrong there.

 

You said it. Sick, sick, sick. Sure, exactly what I want my daughters to learn; submit to a male authority figure at all costs and "take it like a woman". Ugh.

 

My point is that we don't know HOW this girl was. Sure, she had CP, but that doesn't mean she wasn't a disrespectful teen. She said at the start of the video that she was downloading songs illegally because it was "easier than paying for them". Well, it's easier for my to walk into a store and leave carrying the things I want, but I HAVE to pay for them. She should be taught a lesson. Not to this extent, but I can see a few lickings fine when done from a level head.

 

I want to repeat that this father did go WAY over board here, but we don't know what else this girl had done. He stated that she used to be an obedient, sweet, caring daughter. And that she'd changed. I don't know. Maybe if the parents had set up a camera and taped her actions we'd be having a different discussion. There are plenty of times I've seen a kid (teenager) do something and would LOVE to wring their bloody, little neck.

 

Just sayin.

 

Sigh. See previous comments. Daughter's behavior = irrelevant.

 

You have taken this out of context. It is understandable because you didn't watch the video. Please, those of you who do not wish to watch the video realize that you are having an uninformed discussion.

 

What you are talking about in the bolded section is where the mother took the belt from the dad. Told the daughter to bend over the bed to receive her spanking. The mother then gives Hilary one swat with the belt and walks out, the dad follows. This mother exhibited a spanking in that very small section of the tape. It would not be considered abuse by spanking parents.

 

Cheryl, you're equivocating. Do you admit it's outright abuse, and that mother was complicit?

 

 

I might get stoned for this, but I say that mom was as guilty as the dad. I would seriously injure my dh if ever treated our daughters that way. I cannot imagine my rage, and he wouldn't want to be in arm's reach. He is bigger than me, but I know how to shoot the gun. And that's all I'm saying about that.

 

Amen, sister.

 

 

Seems that some here who condone spanking (which this was NOT) are hesitant to call this what it is, outright violence against a child. Heck, I'll go out on a limb here and state that a 16 year old child should not be spanked, period. But this is a clear case of violence and I would hope that we could call it what it is, not cloud the issue with, "Well, you don't know what her motives are" or "well, she could have been a bad child". Sometimes black is black and white is white.

 

Lisa

[Cheryl in NM]

:iagree: If you watch the video, which I didn't watch it all :ack2:, you will see the father raise the belt above or to his head and then swat down. He is willfully and obviously putting force behind the "spanking". This is not a person in control of anything at this point. This is what I would consider blind rage taking it out on his child.

 

I would wager if someone was doing that to your (rhetorical you) child, even if they felt the punishment was warranted, you would step in between them and stop them. Just because this is her father doesn't mean the measure is appropriate. :shudders:

 

I understand what you are saying. My point was more that she failed to protect her child. She told her to take this abuse. She knew what was happening. I know many people who spank. I don't know one who would stand by while this was going on.

 

And I stand by my assertion that anybody, husband or not, that touched my child in such a manner would answer to me quickly and swiftly. And then the police could pick up what was left.

 

I saw the mother as trying to end it. She got the girl to turn over, and then refused to give the belt to Dad and did it herself. *I* think she was hoping that would be the end of it.

 

:iagree: with all of you. But I find it dangerous to insert myself/my family into others situations. Dh knows I was abused by someone before him. He knows that if he ever laid a hand on me other than out of love he'd wake up either in heaven or hell. However, I didn't need to tell him that because he's not that kind of person. I was just feeling prickly and said it in a fight one day. That's what many are doing in this instance. Of course we wouldn't allow this to happen in our own families. WE don't have that dynamic in our families. It doesn't apply.

[Jennifer3141]

Lisa,

 

Cheryl has admitted that this was abuse. What she doesn't see is the sexual component to this abuse.

[Nakia]

Thank you for asking and not attacking!

 

I'm saying Hilary was abused. I'm saying that her father was trying to discipline (albeit by a method many disagree with) but that he lost control and it TURNED INTO an abusive situation. A malicious child abuser has the only intent of harming the child. I believe this father's intent was to discipline his child and hurting her was a product of that. Parents that spank know that a spanking hurts. Their intent is to impress upon their children to modify their behavior by causing that pain. A malicious child abuser only wants to hurt, is not trying to modify behavior and would hurt even if the behavior was modified and the child was perfect. It was obvious in this video that Hilary downloading illegal content was a problem that had been addressed. He was trying to modify her behavior. He was abusive and he was wrong, but his intent was correct.

 

Again, I may not understand the abused persons mentality. While I thought I was abused growing up, I was punished harshly. My parent's goal was to modify/control my behavior not hurt me just for the sake of hurting me. A malicious child abuser hurts just to hurt.

 

Does that clear up what I'm trying to say?

 

 

Thanks for answering. I understand the difference between spanking and assault. As I've said, we spank our daughters, albeit rarely. I do believe it can be an effective form of discipline.

 

However, I do not believe the dad in that video had any intention other than to degrade, humiliate, and abuse his daughter. I believe he came in that room with so much anger he was already out of control. He was furious. He defends his actions to this day. His "apology" doesn't seem to be sincere. Even in the video he threatened to beat her again if she "so much as f*cking looked at" him wrong again.

 

We might have to agree to disagree on this, and that's okay.

[Mommy22alyns]

 

Seems that some here who condone spanking (which this was NOT) are hesitant to call this what it is, outright violence against a child. Heck, I'll go out on a limb here and state that a 16 year old child should not be spanked, period. But this is a clear case of violence and I would hope that we could call it what it is, not cloud the issue with, "Well, you don't know what her motives are" or "well, she could have been a bad child". Sometimes black is black and white is white.

 

Lisa

 

 

I completely agree. 16 is way too old (NOT that there is EVER an appropriate age for what went on here).

[LeslieAnneLevine]

How we CHOSE to interpret others actions and words DOES NOT change their INTENT.

 

Whatever his original intent was is irrelevant.

[Cheryl in NM]

Cheryl, you're equivocating. Do you admit it's outright abuse, and that mother was complicit?

 

 

Seems that some here who condone spanking (which this was NOT) are hesitant to call this what it is, outright violence against a child. Heck, I'll go out on a limb here and state that a 16 year old child should not be spanked, period. But this is a clear case of violence and I would hope that we could call it what it is, not cloud the issue with, "Well, you don't know what her motives are" or "well, she could have been a bad child". Sometimes black is black and white is white.

 

Lisa

 

Oh yes. The mother should not have stood by. She did not appear to be an abused woman cowering in fear of her husband. Most abused women that I've heard of get between their husband and child and take the abuse for the child. The mother has changed her story now to save her own a**. She has no sympathy from me. However the mother knew Hilary had committed an offense so of course she agreed with the dad that Hilary had committed the offense. The fact that Hilary committed an offense is crucial if you are to understand that this situation was discipline gone horribly wrong. This situation was abusive, but I don't believe it started that way. But then I don't believe spanking on the rear end with a belt to be abusive.

 

ETA: And for those equating this to rape. That's not helpful, it is in NO WAY comparable to this situation. Especially if you think spanking isn't comparable to this situation. Being argumentative and accusatory for the sake of it doesn't help the discussion (not meaning you, Lisa).

[Cheryl in NM]

nm

[Impish]

ETA: And for those equating this to rape. That's not helpful, it is in NO WAY comparable to this situation. Especially if you think spanking isn't comparable to this situation. Being argumentative and accusatory for the sake of it doesn't help the discussion (not meaning you, Lisa).

Abuse is about power and control.

 

So is rape.

 

Therefore, it is completely comparable.

 

This had NOTHING to do with discipline. That was merely the excuse. This was about power, control, dominance. This was about breaking someone, about terror, about pain. Discipline is about teaching.

[Cheryl in NM]

Whatever his original intent was is irrelevant.

 

Not really. It's still abuse, but this can be healed much more easily than malicious abuse.

[jillian]

Oh yes. The mother should not have stood by. She did not appear to be an abused woman cowering in fear of her husband. Most abused women that I've heard of get between their husband and child and take the abuse for the child. The mother has changed her story now to save her own a**. She has no sympathy from me. However the mother knew Hilary had committed an offense so of course she agreed with the dad that Hilary had committed the offense. The fact that Hilary committed an offense is crucial if you are to understand that this situation was discipline gone horribly wrong. This situation was abusive, but I don't believe it started that way. But then I don't believe spanking on the rear end with a belt to be abusive.

 

ETA: And for those equating this to rape. That's not helpful, it is in NO WAY comparable to this situation. Especially if you think spanking isn't comparable to this situation. Being argumentative and accusatory for the sake of it doesn't help the discussion (not meaning you, Lisa).

I say this not harshly but I urge you to think about whatever your line is. If your line is that "spanking with a belt is okay" what happens if you do lose your temper (generic you)? If you lose your temper with spanking with a belt the potential is that you could seriously injure your child.

 

If your line is no yelling and you step over that line what happens...you yell.

 

If your line is no spanking what happens, you might spank. Neither spanking with an open hand nor yelling has the same potential to seriously injure your child. Sure it could happen with an open hand but chances are that something far more serious is going to happen if you are spanking with a belt or some other implement.

 

Ask someone who is working in CPS/DSHS if they would see spanking with an implement, specifically a belt/strap (those have the potential to break skin, they offer a very cutting blow) if they would investigate. One who gives a **** about their job would say absolutely they would say they'd investigate it. The potential for that "discipline" (and I use that word extremely loosely when talking about spanking with an object) to go horribly awry is way to easy

[Crissy]

Abuse is about power and control.

 

So is rape.

 

Therefore, it is completely comparable.

 

This had NOTHING to do with discipline. That was merely the excuse. This was about power, control, dominance. This was about breaking someone, about terror, about pain. Discipline is about teaching.

 

I completely agree with this, Impish.

[LeslieAnneLevine]

The question of the mother being complicit is not so easy. I don't like seeing mothers being put on trial for failing to protect their children from their father. The reason being is that they are likely being abused themselves and that can really do a number on someone mentally. I get that it's hard to imagine NOT protecting your child in such a situation--I feel the same way, but she may have thought she was.

[jillian]

Abuse is about power and control.

 

So is rape.

 

Therefore, it is completely comparable.

 

This had NOTHING to do with discipline. That was merely the excuse. This was about power, control, dominance. This was about breaking someone, about terror, about pain. Discipline is about teaching.

Can I follow you around and say :iagree:?

[jillian]

The question of the mother being complicit is not so easy. I don't like seeing mothers being put on trial for failing to protect their children from their father. The reason being is that they are likely being abused themselves and that can really do a number on someone mentally. I get that it's hard to imagine NOT protecting your child in such a situation--I feel the same way, but she may have thought she was.

Exactly, lets remember abuse does not have to be physical. Emotional and psychological abuse takes so much longer to heal than physical. And yes, I speak from personal experience

[Jennifer3141]

Abuse is about power and control.

 

So is rape.

 

Therefore, it is completely comparable.

 

This had NOTHING to do with discipline. That was merely the excuse. This was about power, control, dominance. This was about breaking someone, about terror, about pain. Discipline is about teaching.

 

 

Imp, you are AWESOME!!!

[Cheryl in NM]

Thanks for answering. I understand the difference between spanking and assault. As I've said, we spank our daughters, albeit rarely. I do believe it can be an effective form of discipline.

 

However, I do not believe the dad in that video had any intention other than to degrade, humiliate, and abuse his daughter. I believe he came in that room with so much anger he was already out of control. He was furious. He defends his actions to this day. His "apology" doesn't seem to be sincere. Even in the video he threatened to beat her again if she "so much as f*cking looked at" him wrong again.

 

We might have to agree to disagree on this, and that's okay.

 

I agree. Thank you for conversing so pleasantly with me in such a heated thread. It really made the conversation focus on the issue so much easier. :)

 

Abuse is about power and control.

 

So is rape.

 

Therefore, it is completely comparable.

 

This had NOTHING to do with discipline. That was merely the excuse. This was about power, control, dominance. This was about breaking someone, about terror, about pain. Discipline is about teaching.

 

 

I agree about the control issues. I just don't think that's quite what was going on in Hilary's situation.

 

I agree to disagree about the intent, I still think it was discipline gone horribly wrong. I value the input of this thread. Some of my thoughts have changed, others have solidified. I think we have discussed and clarified ad naseum. I think we all agree it was abuse. I probably said it more than anyone else in this thread (*dry laugh*) in defense of myself.

[LeslieAnneLevine]

Not really. It's still abuse, but this can be healed much more easily than malicious abuse.

 

Whose healing do you mean?

[Cheryl in NM]

Whose healing do you mean?

 

Hilary's, as well as the relationship with her father. Again, you have to view this situation as I do to think healing the relationship with her father is a good thing. The Bible calls us to forgive others, for our own peace of mind. God will meet out justice in the end, if Hilary's father is unrepentant. Of course, as I said already, you would have to believe as I do for this to mean anything to you. God considers all of us lovable and worthy of salvation, which is why he sent Jesus to die for our sins. It's easy for me to say because I'm not Hilary. I understand that. If Hilary were still a minor child in this situation I would call for her to be removed from the home and for the family to enter serious therapy to heal their relationships. Since she is an adult, she now controls the situation.

[Impish]

Not really. It's still abuse, but this can be healed much more easily than malicious abuse.

No, it can't.

[jillian]

No, it can't.

Physically the bruises will fade quickly but trust me (not you impish but you in general) that the psychological and emotional abuse and the betrayal will take years to overcome.

[Cheryl in NM]

A parent who loses control and abuses during discipline can apologize. The child still knows they are love. That's the starting point for healing. A child who is abused just because they are alive does't know if they are loved; they probably aren't. There is no starting point for healing.

[Nakia]

A parent who loses control and abuses during discipline can apologize. The child still knows they are love. That's the starting point for healing. A child who is abused just because they are alive does't know if they are loved; they probably aren't. There is no starting point for healing.

 

This I can agree with. But how can you know he was a good and loving parent from that video and his subsequent interviews? Nothing he has said or done make me believe he is sorry or has an ounce of kindness in him.

Edited November 4, 2011 by Nakia

[Jennifer3141]

This I can agree with. But how can you know he was a good and loving parent from that video and his subsequent interviews? Nothing he has said or done make me belief he is sorry or has an ounce of kindness in him.

 

Everything he has done subsequent to the release of this video tells me he has NO remorse. If he felt any shame (which he rightfully should!) he'd resign immediately and go away. This monster thinks he should get away with this.

[justamouse]

Abuse is about power and control.

 

So is rape.

 

Therefore, it is completely comparable.

 

This had NOTHING to do with discipline. That was merely the excuse. This was about power, control, dominance. This was about breaking someone, about terror, about pain. Discipline is about teaching.

 

Bravo, Imp.

 

And it's another reason this guy needs to get kicked off the bench. That job is not about justice for him, it's about power and control. That wasn't a spanking, that was a beating, and if a stranger walked up to you and 'administered' that 'spanking' he'd be in jail for assault. A man who regularly assaults other people should not be in the position of being anyone's judge. Especially when he assaults the people he was given direct familial care of.

Edited November 4, 2011 by justamouse

[Joanne]

A parent who loses control and abuses during discipline can apologize. The child still knows they are love. That's the starting point for healing. A child who is abused just because they are alive does't know if they are loved; they probably aren't. There is no starting point for healing.

 

A father beating a 16 year old with a belt for age-expected behavior (not *appropriate*, but not out of expected range) does not happen in a vacuum. It does not happen for a father (a child-abuse JUDGE) to suddenly get THIS out of control. It.just.does.not.happen. that a father suddenly feels that corporal punishment of a 16 year old female is acceptable, suddenly takes things too far, suddenly turns terribly punitive and adversarial. There is context and history in which this occured, and none of it is understandable because of her behavior or a parent's obligation to guide/discipline children.

 

Towards your questions about the sexual component; 16 is physiologically a *woman*. For an adult male in a position of power to repeatedly strike her buttocks = sexual abuse. That does not mean his intent was from a sexual orientation.

[justamouse]

I'm another one who thinks the mother should be standing next to her abusive Dh in front of the judge.

 

Seriously, if my Dh ever did that to one of my kids? The cops would be called, he'd be out and the locks would be changed.

[Nakia]

I'm another one who thinks the mother should be standing next to her abusive Dh in front of the judge.

 

Seriously, if my Dh ever did that to one of my kids? The cops would be called, he'd be out and the locks would be changed.

 

:iagree: except if it were my dh, I doubt we'd need the police. Maybe the morgue.

[Joanne]

I'm another one who thinks the mother should be standing next to her abusive Dh in front of the judge.

 

Seriously, if my Dh ever did that to one of my kids? The cops would be called, he'd be out and the locks would be changed.

 

:iagree: Totally.

[Impish]

A parent who loses control and abuses during discipline can apologize. The child still knows they are love. That's the starting point for healing. A child who is abused just because they are alive does't know if they are loved; they probably aren't. There is no starting point for healing.

I honestly don't understand why you think that someone that abuses a child WOULD apologize. Children who are horribly abused still love their parents. Living with a parent that causes you fear, pain and terror, regardless of how its couched, does not have a child feeling loved, regardless of the 'good' times.

 

I think the difference, here, is theory vs practice.

 

A child who lives with abuse, be it disguised as discipline or not, is abused. Their fear and terror is no less.

 

And seriously...someone who 'disciplines' like this is highly unlikely to restrict such violence to those times. They will look for, manufacture, create such situations, so that they can have someone cower and cry in front of them so that THEY can feel powerful and in control.

[Mimm]

I'm another one who thinks the mother should be standing next to her abusive Dh in front of the judge.

 

Seriously, if my Dh ever did that to one of my kids? The cops would be called, he'd be out and the locks would be changed.

 

:iagree:

[elizabeth]

:iagree:

Abuse is about power and control.

 

So is rape.

 

Therefore, it is completely comparable.

 

This had NOTHING to do with discipline. That was merely the excuse. This was about power, control, dominance. This was about breaking someone, about terror, about pain. Discipline is about teaching.

 

Very well stated .

[scrappyhappymama]

That is an opinion. You are entitled to yours just as I am to mine. Somewhere in this thread someone looked up Hilary's local laws. What her dad did, while morally repugnant, isn't illegal.

 

The rear end is where parents spank. Most spanking parents regarding non-rear end spanking as abusive. Have the child bend over lessens the risk of accidentally hitting the child on the back of the legs or the lower back. I think the "take it like a woman" was meant as "take your punishment". I see the bending over as a technicality of spanking, not something sexual. That's why I don't understand the sexual violence issue a pp brought up. If he had her remove her clothes I would question it. If he had her take off her shirt I would question it. If he had her take off all her clothes and spread her legs, THAT is sexual. I don't see spanking on the rear end as sexual. I'm curious about the thought process behind that. So when I spanked my 2 year old through his diaper I was sexually abusing him according to some of you? If not, when does spanking switch to sexual predatory behavior? I'm truly curious.

 

I've said over and over in this thread that this was abuse. I've never disagreed with that point. I agree that the father crossed the line. However, I think he lost control (he even admitted it). I don't equate what happened to Hilary to the second situation in my post that you quoted. I'm NOT saying she deserved it. I'm talking about her father's state of mind. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear about that. I see malicious abuse as hitting just because someone is alive. I think discipline sometimes gets out of hand and becomes abuse. This is what I believe happened to Hilary.

 

I see what you are saying about discipline getting out of hand, but I really don't see this situation that way at all. If dad had come in and calmly explained what the infraction was, and told daughter to lay down, and then lost his temper when she refused to comply... eh, maybe. But no, mom clearly tells him she ~already~ spanked her for this issue, but he insists on getting his licks in. And then he comes bursting into the room cussing and swinging the belt and screaming at the girl to assume the position. Sorry, but he lost his temper and lost control before he ever came in the room.

 

As far as a sexual component, I can only say that while watching and cringing, I kept expecting it to cross that line even more overtly. Perhaps I am influenced by my own experiences, but there was certainly an undertone of sexual aggression from my point of view.

 

I saw the mother as trying to end it. She got the girl to turn over, and then refused to give the belt to Dad and did it herself. *I* think she was hoping that would be the end of it.

 

I don't know. Mom got some licks in on her legs trying to force her to turn over as well. And she participated in the cursing and yelling. If this happened yesterday, I'd say she is just as culpable as dad.

 

However, since it happened seven years ago, mom has obviously taken some steps (who knows, maybe even spurred on by this incident) to remove herself and her daughters from that toxic environment. Mom condemns the behavior and has made positive changes to protect her daughters from it. Dad, as recently as today, is defending and justifying his behavior. Although we can't know what all has transpired in the mean time, it certainly does seem like the evidence supports the daughter's contention that mom is not at fault overall and was abused and cooerced herself.

[OnTheBrink]

I might get stoned for this, but I say that mom was as guilty as the dad. I would seriously injure my dh if ever treated our daughters that way. I cannot imagine my rage, and he wouldn't want to be in arm's reach. He is bigger than me, but I know how to shoot the gun. And that's all I'm saying about that.

 

Preach it.

 

Exactly, lets remember abuse does not have to be physical. Emotional and psychological abuse takes so much longer to heal than physical. And yes, I speak from personal experience

 

Physically the bruises will fade quickly but trust me (not you impish but you in general) that the psychological and emotional abuse and the betrayal will take years to overcome.

 

:iagree: :iagree:

[Mommee & Baba]

I couldn't watch it....brings back too many childhood memories. :(

 

:iagree:

[Harriet Vane]

A father beating a 16 year old with a belt for age-expected behavior (not *appropriate*, but not out of expected range) does not happen in a vacuum. It does not happen for a father (a child-abuse JUDGE) to suddenly get THIS out of control. It.just.does.not.happen. that a father suddenly feels that corporal punishment of a 16 year old female is acceptable, suddenly takes things too far, suddenly turns terribly punitive and adversarial. There is context and history in which this occured, and none of it is understandable because of her behavior or a parent's obligation to guide/discipline children.

 

Towards your questions about the sexual component; 16 is physiologically a *woman*. For an adult male in a position of power to repeatedly strike her buttocks = sexual abuse. That does not mean his intent was from a sexual orientation.

 

:iagree: