Holy mac n cheese! Have you seen this jerk's video?

[Cheryl in NM]

What do you mean by "more suspicious"? What relevance, if any, do you think this has to the behaviour shown in the video?

 

Again, if you will read my previous posts, I wondered if she set up the situation to be worse than it would have so that she could get it on tape. She said she recorded it in case she needed it. She said she was holding on it for the day when she needed it. Then Daddy took away financial support and her Mercedes and she decided she needed it. She used it to try to control him. That's disgusting in my mind. she didn't use it to try to protect anyone from harm; she used it for her own financial gain. It feeds into my opinion that she was an oppositionally defiant teenager and her dad was at his wits end. I wonder if she didn't push his buttons to see how badly he would lose control. Of course, he abused her and HE WAS WRONG. Her actions do not change the fact that his actions were abuse. Maybe she didn't know any better. Maybe it was a game to her. I don't know. Maybe my pov isn't the reality of the situation anyway. Of course, maybe yours or anyone elses on this message board isn't either. The only ones who know exactly the entire context of that situation and life in that house are Hilary and her mom and dad. Hilary even said that the abuse only lasted a period of time. In my mind that doesn't lessen the abuse, but it does make it seem situational.

[cindergretta]

:confused: I don't honestly understand why we need to know more about the background, current or past. Beating anyone with a belt with that kind of rage is wrong. Period. It doesn't matter what happened before. It doesn't matter what has happened since. That beating was abusive and wrong. It doesn't need to mitigated by excuses, explanations, or justifications. There are none. There. are. none.

 

And that video didn't show a man who was fed up and frustrated. That video showed a man with a LOT of internal rage. And whether she downloaded illegal music or ate a snack before dinner that wasn't allowed, he was going to vent his internal rage in a violent fashion on that person.

 

Every single parent of a teen has been frustrated by some behaviour or other that seemed impossible to discipline away or correct. And *most* people would never react like that. Focusing on what the victim did or didn't do is a red herring.

 

And I guess some of us are just confused about how or why someone could look at that video and start trying to reason about how and why it happened in a way that reads like, "This isn't as bad as it seems. Clearly it is abuse, but with more to the story." The posters (for the most part) in this thread are looking at it as abuse, regardless. It is as bad as it seems. It is. An overpowering male is wailing away on a teenage victim. Do we really need to know any more than that??? How on earth could anything we read or "know" about this make it any less horrific and evil?

[Cheryl in NM]

I object to the ranking of levels of abuse that seems to be in your responses.

 

Abuse is abuse is abuse. Doesn't matter in the slightest if it starts out as discipline or just because there's a breathing target in the area. The motivation doesn't matter to the victim.

 

Its kinda like, "Well, its not as bad as..." When its your experience, its simply bad. Period. Pointing out that someone had it worse simply invalidates the experience, or diminishes it, and no victim/survivor deserves that.

 

That's what I've been responding to in your answers. The idea that there's a litmus test for 'bad' abuse. A sort of grading scale, if you will.

 

Terror is terror.

 

I've been abused. I remember clearly thinking, well at least this isn't as bad as in The Burning Bed. I was harshly punished as a child. There was a period of time that I was spanked as a matter of routine. I committed no offense. I felt abused. I had to get over that as an adult. That was not as bad as what happened to Hilary in the video. It was not as bad as A Child Called It. This is where I get my ideas of degrees. I was molested as a teen. That was not as bad as being raped. There really are degrees. Abuse is abuse, but it's not all equal.

[cindergretta]

Again, if you will read my previous posts, I wondered if she set up the situation to be worse than it would have so that she could get it on tape. She said she recorded it in case she needed it. She said she was holding on it for the day when she needed it. Then Daddy took away financial support and her Mercedes and she decided she needed it. She used it to try to control him. That's disgusting in my mind. she didn't use it to try to protect anyone from harm; she used it for her own financial gain. It feeds into my opinion that she was an oppositionally defiant teenager and her dad was at his wits end. I wonder if she didn't push his buttons to see how badly he would lose control. Of course, he abused her and HE WAS WRONG. Her actions do not change the fact that his actions were abuse. Maybe she didn't know any better. Maybe it was a game to her. I don't know. Maybe my pov isn't the reality of the situation anyway. Of course, maybe yours or anyone elses on this message board isn't either. The only ones who know exactly the entire context of that situation and life in that house are Hilary and her mom and dad. Hilary even said that the abuse only lasted a period of time. In my mind that doesn't lessen the abuse, but it does make it seem situational.

 

:001_huh: Let's see, an adult victim of abuse isn't handling a situation with her abuser in an adult and rational manner. I am simply shocked. Of course she should be better than that. :glare: Why are you holding her behaviour to a standard to which you don't seem to be holding her father?

 

And no one is bastardizing your thoughts. No one is agreeing with them. Not the same thing at all. I have read all your posts and have tried desperately to understand them and be supportive of a differing POV. But I find your thought process so flawed that I just can't keep silent about it anymore. You keep posting more and more crap about the vicitim as if it somehow sheds some magical light on this situation so as to explain it. :( If someone beats the living daylights out of me while I am growing up, I can't say I would blackmail them to the I died with that information. I would feel owed and justified by their torture of me.

[Cheryl in NM]

:001_huh: Let's see, an adult victim of abuse isn't handling a situation with her abuser in an adult and rational manner. I am simply shocked. Of course she should be better than that. :glare: Why are you holding her behaviour to a standard to which you don't seem to be holding her father?

 

And no one is bastardizing your thoughts. No one is agreeing with them. Not the same thing at all. I have read all your posts and have tried desperately to understand them and be supportive of a differing POV. But I find your thought process so flawed that I just can't keep silent about it anymore. You keep posting more and more crap about the vicitim as if it somehow sheds some magical light on this situation so as to explain it. :( If someone beats the living daylights out of me while I am growing up, I can't say I would blackmail them to the I died with that information. I would feel owed and justified by their torture of me.

 

Bastardizing my thoughts is saying I mean something that I've said I don't. It's happened over and over in this thread.

 

You're right, I've focused on the father being out of control and abusive, but I've not said what I think should happen to him besides that I think the whole family needs help. I don't think he can do his job effectively as a family court judge. I haven't read the news stories about him being soft on abuse (I took the tag lines at face value). I think he needs counseling, maybe probation, but I don't think he needs to be in jail. Our jails are too full as it is and I'd rather see a murderer in there than an abusive, bad parent.

 

Blackmailing her father is only hurting Hilary. It doesn't do the soul good to hold on to hate and to behave hatefully and spitefully.

 

I'm sorry you think my thought processes are flawed. What is the point of you saying that? To insult me? To hurt me? To get me to shut up? In my mind, my opinion is so radically different from yours that you think they must be flawed. I haven't said anything like that about anyone here. Our opinions are different. That's life.

[mamakimberly]

Re: the car, the blackmail, etc...

 

I think the fact that she has such a manipulative and jacked-up relationship with her father as an adult is further evidence that something wasn't right in her childhood.

 

You aren't going to have a rational, normal, two-way relationship with someone who abused you. Control, manipulation, deceit, and abuse of power are the defining elements of that relationship and that doesn't end when adulthood begins.

 

Is she probably completely messed up in her ways of relating to her father? Of course! He beat the crap out of her!

 

I don't think the girl needs to defend her actions. She had her innocence stripped from her. Instead of her parents teaching her boundaries, they annihilated her boundaries. So yeah, she's gonna have boundary issues in adulthood that are evident to others. But I don't think it is fair to nitpick her because of her boundary issues- they are evidence of the damage he's done to her.

[cindergretta]

 

Blackmailing her father is only hurting Hilary. It doesn't do the soul good to hold on to hate and to behave hatefully and spitefully.

 

I'm sorry you think my thought processes are flawed. What is the point of you saying that? To insult me? To hurt me? To get me to shut up? In my mind, my opinion is so radically different from yours that you think they must be flawed. I haven't said anything like that about anyone here. Our opinions are different. That's life.

 

I agree that blackimailing and holding onto hate are bad for the soul. It is healthier to forgive and let go. But I don't fault someone for not being there yet. I don't fault someone for not having gotten to that point and for wanting vengeance for the wrong done to them. I think it is a human reaction that can be addressed through counseling and real help.

 

And no, I wasn't trying to insult you, hurt you, or get you to shut up. I do believe your thought processes to be flawed. I fundamentally believe that. It is my opinion. Your focus on the actions of the victim as any sort of impetus for the violence perpetrated on her is flawed to me. I can't wrap my mind around any hint of blaming a child/teen victim for the actions of their parent/s. That is as flawed to me as saying a rape victim asked for it because she was wearing a mini-skirt or a murder victim was asking for it because they went to a mini-mart in the middle of the night for cigarettes. I actually don't control the actions of those around me; not my dh, not my dc, not other drivers on the road, etc. I control my responses and they control theirs. To think otherwise, IMO, is flawed.

[cindergretta]

Re: the car, the blackmail, etc...

 

I think the fact that she has such a manipulative and jacked-up relationship with her father as an adult is further evidence that something wasn't right in her childhood.

 

You aren't going to have a rational, normal, two-way relationship with someone who abused you. Control, manipulation, deceit, and abuse of power are the defining elements of that relationship and that doesn't end when adulthood begins.

 

Is she probably completely messed up in her ways of relating to her father? Of course! He beat the crap out of her!

 

I don't think the girl needs to defend her actions. She had her innocence stripped from her. Instead of her parents teaching her boundaries, they annihilated her boundaries. So yeah, she's gonna have boundary issues in adulthood that are evident to others. But I don't think it is fair to nitpick her because of her boundary issues- they are evidence of the damage he's done to her.

 

:iagree:

[scrappyhappymama]

Again, if you will read my previous posts, I wondered if she set up the situation to be worse than it would have so that she could get it on tape. She said she recorded it in case she needed it. She said she was holding on it for the day when she needed it. Then Daddy took away financial support and her Mercedes and she decided she needed it. She used it to try to control him. That's disgusting in my mind. she didn't use it to try to protect anyone from harm; she used it for her own financial gain. It feeds into my opinion that she was an oppositionally defiant teenager and her dad was at his wits end. I wonder if she didn't push his buttons to see how badly he would lose control. Of course, he abused her and HE WAS WRONG. Her actions do not change the fact that his actions were abuse. Maybe she didn't know any better. Maybe it was a game to her. I don't know. Maybe my pov isn't the reality of the situation anyway. Of course, maybe yours or anyone elses on this message board isn't either. The only ones who know exactly the entire context of that situation and life in that house are Hilary and her mom and dad. Hilary even said that the abuse only lasted a period of time. In my mind that doesn't lessen the abuse, but it does make it seem situational.

 

Cheryl, this paragraph demonstrates the crux of where I strongly disagree with your arguement. From my point of view, and what I think other posters are trying to articulate as well, whether this young lady was an oppositionally defiant teenager and whether or not her motives for releasing the tape now are unsavory is IRRELEVANT to the abuse depicted in the video.

 

Let's imagine for a minute that a 16 year old young woman did not steal downloaded music but stole, let's say, a car. And was caught and arrested and taken to juvenille hall. And then let's say that a warden there took it upon himself to teach her a lesson and beat her repeatedly with a leather strap on the legs and lower back, all the while telling her her get on her *$$ and that he was going to f*** her up, and a then a female guard told her to take it like a woman, and this all went on for seven minutes!!

 

Well, the crime was proportionately worse, so is this punishment understandable? What if the guards said they were just so overwhelmed with dealing with bratty teenagers all day that they snapped? Would we show them understanding and say maybe they didn't deserve to be in jail?

 

I know this is not an exact parallel, and these are her parents and they have a responsibility to discipline (and more importantly to disciple!) their child. But regardless of her (allegedly) out of control behavior, the actions of her parents and her father in particular do not fall within ANY definition of discipline. Dad is the adult here. If he has lost his temper, or is out of control, then it is his responsibility to look for alternative ways of handling the situation. For one, he could take advantage of the resources out there available for troubled children and anger-prone parents, which as a family court judge he should be more aware of than most!

 

As far as the money/Mercedes issues go, I certainly know of abusers who use their money or positions of power to control others. She may have spent her whole life feeling manipulated by her father into perpetuating the normal facade of their family, and I am certainly not about to judge her for being emotionally incompetent up to this point of being able to reject the good gifts her father gives and stand up to an admittedly powerful man.

 

I'm sorry you feel ganged up upon in this thread, but {gently} perhaps you are getting a bit too emotionally involved? You repeatedly accuse folks of not reading your threads, or purposefully twisting your words. It doesn't seem likely that we have all decided to pile on Cheryl, just because. You are completely entitled to your opinion, but when folks genuinely disagree, it's not because we aren't reading your threads. Truly.

[Mommy22alyns]

:confused: I don't honestly understand why we need to know more about the background, current or past. Beating anyone with a belt with that kind of rage is wrong. Period. It doesn't matter what happened before. It doesn't matter what has happened since. That beating was abusive and wrong. It doesn't need to mitigated by excuses, explanations, or justifications. There are none. There. are. none.

 

And that video didn't show a man who was fed up and frustrated. That video showed a man with a LOT of internal rage. And whether she downloaded illegal music or ate a snack before dinner that wasn't allowed, he was going to vent his internal rage in a violent fashion on that person.

 

Every single parent of a teen has been frustrated by some behaviour or other that seemed impossible to discipline away or correct. And *most* people would never react like that. Focusing on what the victim did or didn't do is a red herring.

 

And I guess some of us are just confused about how or why someone could look at that video and start trying to reason about how and why it happened in a way that reads like, "This isn't as bad as it seems. Clearly it is abuse, but with more to the story." The posters (for the most part) in this thread are looking at it as abuse, regardless. It is as bad as it seems. It is. An overpowering male is wailing away on a teenage victim. Do we really need to know any more than that??? How on earth could anything we read or "know" about this make it any less horrific and evil?

 

 

:iagree::iagree:

[kwg]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/11/03/texas-judge-caught-on-video-beating-daughter-needs-help/

 

 

Just looking at him for a sec.....he is a family judge!? I find that horrible.

[jillian]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/11/03/texas-judge-caught-on-video-beating-daughter-needs-help/

 

 

Just looking at him for a sec.....he is a family judge!? I find that horrible.

I see him and honestly all I can see is this smug satisfied smile on his face like "haha I got away with it". Probably an old picture but that's all I can see when I look at him. Well, that and wanting to beat the living cr*p out of him

[kwg]

He says he didn't do anything wrong except lose his temper which he already apologized for :banghead:

 

 

yeah, I bet he will totally get away with it....sad really :(

[Jennifer3141]

I see him and honestly all I can see is this smug satisfied smile on his face like "haha I got away with it". Probably an old picture but that's all I can see when I look at him. Well, that and wanting to beat the living cr*p out of him

 

I feel the same way. I mentioned to DH that I'd like to do to this jerk what he did to his daughter for 7 minutes and DH's response was that I shouldn't think about doing it for less than $5000 and it was DH's guess that this jerk would probably like it. :glare:

[cindergretta]

Let me get this straight - the man beating the snot out of his teenage daughter is the one claiming she released it because he was taking her car and financial support? Well, there is a reliable source. :-/

 

The mother maintains the abuse was the result of an addiction. I can believe that. :-(

[jillian]

He says he didn't do anything wrong except lose his temper which he already apologized for :banghead:

 

 

yeah, I bet he will totally get away with it....sad really :(

he is getting away with it because of the statute of limitations.

[kwg]

I know he is not being charged for abuse but it seems off that he wouldn't have some sort of repercussions given his job. But I bet once the dust settles, he will go back to making decisions on child abuse cases.

 

That is what he says....that it is over the car. She says she wanted him to get help. It is video and doesn't appear doctored. He does not deny it happened. In fact, he said he already apologized for losing his temper.

[Jennifer3141]

He says he didn't do anything wrong except lose his temper which he already apologized for :banghead:

 

 

yeah, I bet he will totally get away with it....sad really :(

 

I don't think he's going to recover as a jurist. I think he'll very quietly be removed from the bench. I do think he'll simply go into private practice and make three times what he made as a judge anyway. :001_huh:

 

But I doubt he'll keep his bench. It would be way too easy for defendents to use this video and say, "But I didn't hit my kid this hard!" It would make the appeals process way too easy for his defendents. I think the county is already worried about the decisions of his former cases and the ramifications of this that they aren't going to take the risk for future stuff too.

 

That's the thing about power like this. It's power. Not friendship. Not loyalty. Not respect. People will distance themselves from the man out of embarrassment, shame, whatever.

 

Hillary did the best thing she could have ever done for this. She showed the world what her father really was and now, it's out there. When you google this man's name FOREVER, there's this video. May other abusers out there take that lesson to heart. The first step in dealing with a cockroach infestation is to turn on the light. Hillary turned a spotlight on her father because he's a pretty big roach.

[Mimm]

he is getting away with it because of the statute of limitations.

 

This is something I don't get. So what if you were ten when your father molested you or something, and you were terrified (and, you know, a child) and didn't tell anyone about it, and then when you were 18, finally an adult, you decide to go ahead and press charges against the creep, are they going to say that happened too long ago? That's insane...

[Jennifer3141]

Let me get this straight - the man beating the snot out of his teenage daughter is the one claiming she released it because he was taking her car and financial support? Well, there is a reliable source. :-/

 

The mother maintains the abuse was the result of an addiction. I can believe that. :-(

 

When I heard about the Mercedes, I laughed. Because that doesn't exactly help his case. It's classic abuse behavior to be generous to the victim. The guy across the hall from my first apartment brought the wife he pounded the night before flowers the next day. Every.single.time. :banghead:

[LittleIzumi]

Again, if you will read my previous posts, I wondered if she set up the situation to be worse than it would have so that she could get it on tape. She said she recorded it in case she needed it. She said she was holding on it for the day when she needed it. Then Daddy took away financial support and her Mercedes and she decided she needed it. She used it to try to control him. That's disgusting in my mind. she didn't use it to try to protect anyone from harm; she used it for her own financial gain. It feeds into my opinion that she was an oppositionally defiant teenager and her dad was at his wits end. I wonder if she didn't push his buttons to see how badly he would lose control. Of course, he abused her and HE WAS WRONG. Her actions do not change the fact that his actions were abuse. Maybe she didn't know any better. Maybe it was a game to her. I don't know. Maybe my pov isn't the reality of the situation anyway. Of course, maybe yours or anyone elses on this message board isn't either. The only ones who know exactly the entire context of that situation and life in that house are Hilary and her mom and dad. Hilary even said that the abuse only lasted a period of time. In my mind that doesn't lessen the abuse, but it does make it seem situational.

 

I can easily imagine her father essentially buying her silence with the financial aid and the car. Not only would people mostly likely not believe her if she told anyone (a teenager/young adult versus a respected sitting judge), but then if she told anyone once she left home, she would lose her financial aid and transportation.

 

Also, not related to your post, I am *assuming* that with the mother saying, "Take it like a woman," that she has also been beaten like this as quite a matter of course, and being in such an abusive situation it's hard to have a normal perspective when the same thing happens to your daughter.

 

It's all sick.

[kwg]

I don't think he's going to recover as a jurist. I think he'll very quietly be removed from the bench. I do think he'll simply go into private practice and make three times what he made as a judge anyway. :001_huh:

 

But I doubt he'll keep his bench. It would be way too easy for defendents to use this video and say, "But I didn't hit my kid this hard!" It would make the appeals process way too easy for his defendents. I think the county is already worried about the decisions of his former cases and the ramifications of this that they aren't going to take the risk for future stuff too.

 

That's the thing about power like this. It's power. Not friendship. Not loyalty. Not respect. People will distance themselves from the man out of embarrassment, shame, whatever.

 

Hillary did the best thing she could have ever done for this. She showed the world what her father really was and now, it's out there. When you google this man's name FOREVER, there's this video. May other abusers out there take that lesson to heart. The first step in dealing with a cockroach infestation is to turn on the light. Hillary turned a spotlight on her father because he's a pretty big roach.

 

 

Oh ok, good. I hope that is how it turns out- well really I hope that when he tries to go into private practice it fails miserably and he is forced to look inward at his own miserable self. But at the very least I hope he is removed from the bench.

[Jennifer3141]

Oh ok, good. I hope that is how it turns out- well really I hope that when he tries to go into private practice it fails miserably and he is forced to look inward at his own miserable self. But at the very least I hope he is removed from the bench.

 

Well, I hope I'm right too!! But nothing would surprise me at the moment. I think it's more likely he will be forced to step down because of the video. If it was just Hillary's word, I doubt there would be much of a chance of his leaving the bench at all.

[kwg]

This is something I don't get. So what if you were ten when your father molested you or something, and you were terrified (and, you know, a child) and didn't tell anyone about it, and then when you were 18, finally an adult, you decide to go ahead and press charges against the creep, are they going to say that happened too long ago? That's insane...

 

I think it is different times depending on the crimes. They may also vary by state. I think in that case, many states have like 8 or even 10 years after they turn 18 so the child could prosecute with no problem. I think I read they also have one to three years after they learn how harmful it has been for them...like if they were in therapy and they finally understand the effects they can still sue even though technically too much time passed.

 

Not entirely sure.

[Free]

Again, if you will read my previous posts, I wondered if she set up the situation to be worse than it would have so that she could get it on tape. She said she recorded it in case she needed it. She said she was holding on it for the day when she needed it. Then Daddy took away financial support and her Mercedes and she decided she needed it. She used it to try to control him. That's disgusting in my mind. she didn't use it to try to protect anyone from harm; she used it for her own financial gain. It feeds into my opinion that she was an oppositionally defiant teenager and her dad was at his wits end. I wonder if she didn't push his buttons to see how badly he would lose control. Of course, he abused her and HE WAS WRONG. Her actions do not change the fact that his actions were abuse. Maybe she didn't know any better. Maybe it was a game to her. I don't know. Maybe my pov isn't the reality of the situation anyway. Of course, maybe yours or anyone elses on this message board isn't either. The only ones who know exactly the entire context of that situation and life in that house are Hilary and her mom and dad. Hilary even said that the abuse only lasted a period of time. In my mind that doesn't lessen the abuse, but it does make it seem situational.

 

This whole post summarizes exactly why many are having an issue with what you are saying.

 

I wondered if she set up the situation to be worse than it would have so that she could get it on tape. She said she recorded it in case she needed it.

 

It is quite possible that she did indeed set it up, but you have not addressed the point several posters have already pointed out, i.e. the only way she knew how he was going to act was because there was a history of abuse. This was not a one off situation.

 

It feeds into my opinion that she was an oppositionally defiant teenager and her dad was at his wits end. I wonder if she didn't push his buttons to see how badly he would lose control.

 

I really really do not understand how you can say this and still say that you have not tried to excuse, explain away or justify the dad's behaviour? :confused: This whole statement has "blame the victim" attitude all over it. Is this not the exact kind of argument - the victim must have done something to attract unwanted attention - used to minimize rape?

 

Kids go through stages of difficult behaviour. On any given day on this very board you will find parents asking for advice on a range of difficult child behaviours and attitudes. It is quite possible that the dad was indeed at his wits end. So What? Really, so what? How is it any different from what so many other parents have to deal with?

 

Hilary even said that the abuse only lasted a period of time. In my mind that doesn't lessen the abuse, but it does make it seem situational.

 

I am not sure if I am understanding this correctly, but you seem to be saying that the abuse only lasted as long as Hilary was an oppositionally defiant teenager and was brought on by situations of Hilary own making? This is some more of the same "blame the victim".

 

The point that many who have disagreed with you have made is simple really - it does not matter how oppositionally defiant Hilary was, or how grave her offenses were, or how evil or bad or sinful a human being she was. It does.not.matter.

 

The abuser's actions should be viewed independently from those of the victim.

Edited November 5, 2011 by Free

[In2why]

It's an odd sensation. We look at the video and are horrified. Then we start to notice things we have questions about. Then he doesn't deny it. It really leaves me unsettled.

 

It reminds me of:

 

I was raised in a spanking house. Mom told Dad to spank and he did. Mom spanked, with her hand, belt, wooden spoon (she broke 2 in the course of our childhoods-she still has one of them and uses it to cook with regularly. I shudder when I see it). Dad would get mad and swing, whatever he connected with is what you got. This didn't happen daily and was in response to a verifiable, punishable offense. As an adult I see it as the discipline it was intended, even though it was extreme at times. As a child I felt abused. When I was a teen I mouthed off frequently, there was no filter between the heart/brain and mouth (I know that doesn't surprise those of you here that know me). My mom would slap my face, sometimes hard. Once I had bruises, most of the time a hand print. Well, all I needed was to go to school once with marks on my face to notice the sympathy I received. After that I was spoiling for a fight with my mom. I instigated circumstances I knew I would be smacked in the face for. Then I'd act the victim at school. I'm so glad no one in authority took action, actually, I only did this in front of friends. I am not the person that I described in a previous post. Because of the person I mentioned previously and my own actions as a teen and what I'm reading on the internet about Hilary's situation I feel even more unsettled about her video. Yes, that kind of corporal punishment is wrong. Yes, Hilary's parents were out of control. It's like when you repeatedly tell your kid to do something and they don't. If you lose your temper and yell it kind of defeats the situation. You were right to tell them to do it, but then you yelled and it changed the situation to you now having to apologize. I'm not equating, just "thinking out loud". This whole situation is unsettling.

 

 

You were a victim. The fact that sometimes you would instigate it knowing what would happen doesn't make you any less of a victim of child abuse. Women in abusive relationships often do the same thing.

[In2why]

I haven't watched the video.

 

I can't.

 

Being beaten with a leather belt was standard growing up. I simply cannot watch it happen to someone else.

 

As far as crying goes...I would be hit until I cried, then hit til I stopped. If I continued to cry after, it was a guarantee for more beating. Not crying during meant that you were being defiant, that they obviously weren't getting through to you.

 

 

Ditto to everything you said, except I did watch the video, and the pauses knowing he was coming back were the worse part.

 

I also could never stand still, or not try to get away from the belt which apparently meant I was asking for the welts up and down my legs, and on my hands and arms?

 

Yes, I think this was commonplace punishment, and called discipline, for many of us growing up. I think anyone who still hits their child with a belt should have to watch it because I would bet that very few of our parents would have realized that this is what it looked like.

[In2why]

Thank you.

 

 

 

Please read all of my previous posts. My points are laid out explicitly. If you still have questions I'll be happy to answer them. :)

 

 

 

I don't understand the "sexualized violence". Is it because he wanted to spank her on her bottom? Originally, that was all this was supposed to be, at least that what he said in the video. I'm not saying she deserved it; she didn't. Just that, I think in his mind, if everything had gone exactly like he expected or envisioned, she would have bent over the bed, he would have smacked her on the rear a number of time (number=?) and it would have been over. I think he lost control. I saw an overwhelmed, frustrated parent who lost control, not a malicious child abuser. When I think of a malicious child abuser I envision someone who walks up to a child and starts swinging and the child has committed no offense. Again, I'm not saying Hilary deserved this. I'm saying, I think the father thought he was disciplining, he's said as much. Anyway, what do you mean by "sexualized violence"?

 

Women who are sexually assaulted are also told to bend over, put their a$$es in the air, and not move or they are beaten.

 

This man beat her in anger, he walked away and came back to hit her some more. He physically, emotionally, and verbally abused her. It was malicious because he was not trying to teach anything except fear. There were no learning moments.

 

Logically the fact that the tape exists means that it was a pattern of behavior and not a one time event (which still would not excuse it). She wouldn't have known to set up the tape unless it was something that she knew from history was going to happen again.

[In2why]

That is an opinion. You are entitled to yours just as I am to mine. Somewhere in this thread someone looked up Hilary's local laws. What her dad did, while morally repugnant, isn't illegal.

 

 

 

The rear end is where parents spank. Most spanking parents regarding non-rear end spanking as abusive. Have the child bend over lessens the risk of accidentally hitting the child on the back of the legs or the lower back. I think the "take it like a woman" was meant as "take your punishment". I see the bending over as a technicality of spanking, not something sexual. That's why I don't understand the sexual violence issue a pp brought up. If he had her remove her clothes I would question it. If he had her take off her shirt I would question it. If he had her take off all her clothes and spread her legs, THAT is sexual. I don't see spanking on the rear end as sexual. I'm curious about the thought process behind that. So when I spanked my 2 year old through his diaper I was sexually abusing him according to some of you? If not, when does spanking switch to sexual predatory behavior? I'm truly curious.

 

 

 

I've said over and over in this thread that this was abuse. I've never disagreed with that point. I agree that the father crossed the line. However, I think he lost control (he even admitted it). I don't equate what happened to Hilary to the second situation in my post that you quoted. I'm NOT saying she deserved it. I'm talking about her father's state of mind. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear about that. I see malicious abuse as hitting just because someone is alive. I think discipline sometimes gets out of hand and becomes abuse. This is what I believe happened to Hilary.

 

 

I spanked. I am not going to go into the details of why my spanking was right or wrong, or how it was done other than to say that I am conflicted because the line between spanking for discipline and abuse is such a thin one and I fear that more people are abusive then want to admit it, or even realize. I am stating my background to show that my opinion isn't based on being anti-spanking, although I am not entirely comfortable with it, and hope that no one is completely comfortable.

 

With all that said there are some interesting studies about corporal punishment/spanking and the prison population as well as sexual perversions. I will look them up later or you can google them. But sexual perversions often come from our earliest sexual experiences. Think about the child who gets his first erection while squirming around on the bed or pulled across someone's lap while being spanked at the same time. Or why one of the most common sexual fantasies for women often include a rape of force component.

[In2why]

A parent who loses control and abuses during discipline can apologize. The child still knows they are love. That's the starting point for healing. A child who is abused just because they are alive does't know if they are loved; they probably aren't. There is no starting point for healing.

 

 

Or they grow up to think abuse is a form of love. If they are male then it is easier to justify abusing their children and wife and if they are female it is easier to justify being abused by a man or standing by and watching your children be abused. And the cycle continues, until there is recognition that even if done in the name of love, it is/was wrong and nothing excuses it. Perhaps explains it, but never excuses it.

[jillian]

I spanked. I am not going to go into the details of why my spanking was right or wrong, or how it was done other than to say that I am conflicted because the line between spanking for discipline and abuse is such a thin one and I fear that more people are abusive then want to admit it, or even realize. I am stating my background to show that my opinion isn't based on being anti-spanking, although I am not entirely comfortable with it, and hope that no one is completely comfortable.

 

With all that said there are some interesting studies about corporal punishment/spanking and the prison population as well as sexual perversions. I will look them up later or you can google them. But sexual perversions often come from our earliest sexual experiences. Think about the child who gets his first erection while squirming around on the bed or pulled across someone's lap while being spanked at the same time. Or why one of the most common sexual fantasies for women often include a rape of force component.

I'm going to PM you about this because sexual psychology is one of my big interest areas.

[In2why]

I've agree to disagree about this distinction.

 

 

 

According to my many posts on the issue: it crosses the line to malicious when then intent is only to hurt the child instead of trying to modify behavior. It's still wrong and it's still abuse just not quite the betrayal of "I'm beating you just because you are alive". I keep re-stating my opinion because it has been mis-quoting, mis-represented and just plain twisted.

 

I don't believe that anyone beats someone just because they are alive. Even the monster who burns their child with boiling water was trying to teach him not to wet the bed. There is always a justification even if to the average person it is a sick one.

 

 

My personal belief is that her behavior, continued deception and disobedience, had her father so wrapped up he couldn't even see straight.

 

By writing her behavior had him so wrapped up he couldn't see straight gets responded to, even though you continue the next sentence to say she didn't deserve it, but the above sentence states she helped cause it.

 

No, she did not deserve the beating we witnessed on the tape.

 

 

Her father, as the father, adult, parent, family court judge, should have been able to see his wrong thinking and get help.

Yes he should have.

He couldn't. He's human.

He ***could*** but he didn't. I agree that he is human, because animals would never act that way.

 

He obviously made many very bad decisions and lost control alot. It's "fog of war", he was caught up in a situation that he couldn't see clearly or get out of. I doesn't excuse his behavior, it explains it, it leaves open the room for him to see the error of his ways, and try to heal this relationship.

The above feels like you are excusing it by her behavior even though you are saying you don't. Very conflicting statements in the same paragraph.

 

I believe he loves his daughter.

Based on what? She released this tape because even as an adult he continues to abuse her. Look at the interviews she gave and his response. He might love her as much as he is capable, I don't think any of us know that, but as an adult she certainly doesn't seem to feel loved.

 

I'm not sure I believe the abuse about the wife. She didn't not seem afraid of him at all.

 

I have a lot of problems with his wife, but I don't think it is possible to judge whether she was abused by this tape. It would be an easy assumption, but just an assumption. But the wife says she was.

 

 

YES! That's been my point all along!

 

 

 

I agree and I've said so numerous times.

 

And really, why is it ok to dismiss one form of abuse because it isn't as bad as another? This young woman obviously felt victimized -- and rightly so. Should we tell her that it's not that bad, because other parents would have done worse to her?

 

 

 

I, personally, don't agree with spanking a 16 year old. Even if they are a troubled child, which I'm NOT saying Hilary is, 16 year olds are too old to be spanked IMO. My 15 year old is bigger than me!

 

 

 

The beating he gave her actually is not illegal where he lives (someone posted a link in the first few pages of this thread). Whether or not we agree with it doesn't change the legality of it.

 

Perhaps this will raise the issue as to whether it should be illegal.

 

 

I wanted to address your questions one by one because your above post is the perfect example of "if you read my posts entirely you wouldn't be asking the questions you are." I'm not trying to be insulting, really, I'm not. I want to have a respectful dialogue. I understand this is an emotional issue and I've been shocked by the number of people on this thread that have been abused. As I said previously, sadly, it seems commonplace.

 

I wanted to do the same as well. I hope you don't feel attacked by anyone. I think it is courageous to put your thoughts out here, and hope that by having these discussions it does open up thoughts, minds, and hearts and can be learning moments for everyone.

I really wanted to emphasize the bold above.......I think the experience of so many of us being abused is perhaps the best example of why all physical discipline should be against the law. Very few people who were abused had parents who thought they were abusing us. The vast majority thought they were just parenting.

[kwg]

I don't believe that anyone beats someone just because they are alive. Even the monster who burns their child with boiling water was trying to teach him not to wet the bed. There is always a justification even if to the average person it is a sick one.

 

 

I think that is true. It is like asking why Julia Roberts couldn't just keep the towels straight in the bathroom (Sleeping With the Enemy). Even in the referenced book, A Child Called It, I believe that psycho had a justification and got to keep her other children I think.

[FiveOaksAcademy]

I didn't watch the video. I saw a snip on the news, and that was quite enough for me. I'd like to see him lose his position as judge. Who knows, though. I'm extremely disturbed when parents treat a child in such an abusive way. Mine never did, but I had a friend whose mom unleashed on her, right in front of me when we were both 14. It was more than enough for me.

 

I'm also extremely disturbed when I read stuff on here and see how horribly unkind and how strong the pack mentality can be here. Heaven help the person who expresses an opinion that has even a hint of a disagreement in it. Apparently tar and feathers would even be too good for someone like that. It reminds me of junior high. :mad:

[ThatCyndiGirl]

Seriously?! I thought that the only horrific parts were the repeated, "But, it was her behaviour that started it, but he just lost control, but he was just trying to discipline her. This abuse is not as bad as that other abuse!" :glare:

 

If anyone has been victimized in this thread, it was all of the former victims of child abuse who had to read trash like that! It was sickening and horrible to read as well as, I believe, deliberate.

 

How could people NOT speak up against that? :001_huh:

[FiveOaksAcademy]

Seriously?! I thought that the only horrific parts were the repeated, "But, it was her behaviour that started it, but he just lost control, but he was just trying to discipline her. This abuse is not as bad as that other abuse!" :glare:

 

If anyone has been victimized in this thread, it was all of the former victims of child abuse who had to read trash like that! It was sickening and horrible to read as well as, I believe, deliberate.

 

How could people NOT speak up against that? :001_huh:

 

 

I'm seeing people on here being flogged even while AGREEING that it was abuse!!!! I guess I shouldn't have written anything other than my own thoughts on the horror of the video. It's just safer that way.

[kalanamak]

I think he lost control. I saw an overwhelmed, frustrated parent who lost control, not a malicious child abuser.

 

Over fooling around on the computer? Gosh what would he do for something actually stressful, like beating up an old lady or getting pregnant?

[Jennifer3141]

Seriously?! I thought that the only horrific parts were the repeated, "But, it was her behaviour that started it, but he just lost control, but he was just trying to discipline her. This abuse is not as bad as that other abuse!" :glare:

 

If anyone has been victimized in this thread, it was all of the former victims of child abuse who had to read trash like that! It was sickening and horrible to read as well as, I believe, deliberate.

 

How could people NOT speak up against that? :001_huh:

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree: TOTALLY.

[Impish]

I think what ppl object to is, "It is abuse, but..." that seems to be coming across in answers.

 

There is no 'but'. Its abuse. Period. Stone cold stop. Doesn't matter WHAT the girl did. Doesn't matter WHAT else was going on with the Dad. Doesn't matter how it started out, what the initial motivation was.

 

Its abuse. Period.

[Joanne]

I'm seeing people on here being flogged even while AGREEING that it was abuse!!!! I guess I shouldn't have written anything other than my own thoughts on the horror of the video. It's just safer that way.

 

The passion behind the "flogging" (your words, not mine) is because Cheryl, while repeatedly agreeing the father was abusive, ALSO repeats and speculates in ways that seem to suggest the dd's behavior explains, mitigates, or fuels his fury. The posters are incredulous at the suggestion that a person holds the view that the child's behavior drives (ever) the need for power and control evidenced in the video.

 

I was once (and now professionally work with) abused women. Especially with religious women, there is a common mentality of "I'm human, too. I make mistakes. I sin." It can be very hard to transcend that quagmire. It is part of the *abuse cycle* and *abuse pattern* to either manufacture or capitalize on the existence of this kind of thinking. This leaves the abused person paralized and stuck. They might recognize some abuse; but since they also make "mistakes", they remain.

 

That is the type of thinking I see in Cheryl's posts. Related to the above is that, over time, abuse gets normalized. Abuse is systematic. It often starts *just* over the line. That issue is subject to the remorse/forgive/honeymoon cycle and becomes part of the normal of that family. The next episode is just a little past the original - apology/honeymoon. Repeat. Years later, things that are clearly, absolutely, 100% abuse are experienced as normal and only the most recent, or egregious events are seen as "abuse". This dynamic could explain the Mom in the posted event (but I don't know enough about THIS case to say for sure).

[kwg]

It is maddening to read that when you have a history, at least for me. Because really, you think you deserve it, you think...what if I was a better person maybe such and such wouldn't have happened.....maybe if I can just do XYZ......of course they love me and want the best for me (so and so likes them, look how successful they are, etc) so there is something wrong with me ....if I could just change, do what they want....... But here is the thing- you can't. They make it impossible. Sure this was an example where she could and should not have been dl music but it could just have easily been an example of where she had not cleaned her room to specifications, done the dishes right, wasn't sitting up straight enough (not kidding), etc etc. No one knows. But usually where there is smoke there is fire and if she had the foresight to put the camera on, it was not the first time she had been down that road.

 

So to basically hear it from someone else kinda sucks. Old tapes and all.

 

 

But it wasn't any pack mentality thing- I don't know anyone here. And I feel bad if it seems like I am ganging up, so fwiw, I am glad you said something so I can make sure to back off. But I did want to explain why I may have seemed snippy or whatever....It is just really hard to read that kind of stuff b/c of my personal history and I definitely should have stayed out of it!

[kalanamak]

I'm seeing people on here being flogged even while AGREEING that it was abuse!!!!

 

I am reminded of what Lillian Hellman said about losing her farm and livelihood in the McCarthy period, and having to work at a cash register (I paraphrase): I will not compare my suffering to actual torture, to tongues being pulled out ....

 

"Flogging" is a odd word to use here.

[Mama2Many4]

Where have I insulted you? I have disagreed with you--vehemently--but that's not the same as insulting you. I didn't call you any names, or used sarcasm towards you. Where are you getting this?

 

Also, which "experts" agree with you that an older man spanking a teen girl, telling her he's going to beat her until she submits, and using vulgar language, isn't a form of sexual violence? Please, share.

 

You are minimizing what he did, by saying he just "got lost" in anger. Tell me, does "getting lost" explain the many other times he beat her before and after? Ms. Hallie Adams has stated that this was not a one-time occurrence, but merely one event in a cycle of violence. That's how she knew to set that camera up, because she recognized the signs. She couldn't have learned those signs unless she'd seen that behavior before, on multiple occasions.

 

You maintain that he was all about trying to turn her away from what she did wrong.

 

Here's my theory: he was and is, an angry, damaged person, who couldn't contain his rage in both the public and private spheres 100% of the time. So, his anger and nastiness festered inside him, until just the right trigger set it off into a rage of hitting, cursing, and threats.

 

It is important that you realize what she did was not the origin of his anger. She was merely the convenient outlet for it.

 

That is the difference between discipline and abuse, and why his reaction to her offense was ALL OUT OF PROPORTION. A normal, healthy person does not fly off and beat someone up because they download illegal music. Ok? Let's dispense with this notion that his actions were fueled by anything so logical and upstanding as mere correction of his daughter. It was fueled by his own inner rage and hatred.

 

I can't tell you the cause of those emotions (that's his story to tell), but I can recognize them. As I'm positive any expert could as well.

 

This I agree with in it's entirety. I don't think anyone should be spanking a teen. I also have thought long and hard and don't think anyone should use an object to spank.

[In2why]

Seriously?! I thought that the only horrific parts were the repeated, "But, it was her behaviour that started it, but he just lost control, but he was just trying to discipline her. This abuse is not as bad as that other abuse!" :glare:

 

If anyone has been victimized in this thread, it was all of the former victims of child abuse who had to read trash like that! It was sickening and horrible to read as well as, I believe, deliberate.

 

How could people NOT speak up against that? :001_huh:

 

 

I would hope that no one would get too upset or dramatic on either side of this discussion, because I think it can be helpful to someone who might read or ask a question who isn't sure that what they experienced or are experiencing is abuse.

 

Perhaps there are lurkers who have husbands or had fathers who this video is the norm? Hopefully if the discussion remains kind it will continue and there could be learning moments? Many of us have already posted that this was our normal and I can't believe that it doesn't still happen. I also believe that it is possible that our demographic might skew higher than the average.

 

I also want to say that if anyone is having questions or think that they or their children might be in an abusive relationship it is possible to call a domestic abuse hotline, not leave your name, and discuss your feelings and thoughts. There is also a website http://www.thehotline.org/ . Perhaps it isn't abuse, but you just aren't sure. That might be a safe place to examine your thoughts?

[FiveOaksAcademy]

Perhaps there are lurkers who have husbands or had fathers who this video is the norm? Hopefully if the discussion remains kind it will continue and there could be learning moments? Many of us have already posted that this was our normal and I can't believe that it doesn't still happen. I also believe that it is possible that our demographic might skew higher than the average.

 

 

 

This!!! :iagree: But sadly, the discussion has not remained kind.

 

I saw one poster called "demented" because her thoughts didn't line up. Maybe someone knows something I don't and knows this person was a troll or something?? What it seemed to me was that this was a person who had been so accustomed to that type of situation that she probably felt less "shocked" by it than others. In that instance, if I were her and someone were to call me demented, I'd go into defense mode and not hear anything past that.

 

Example: I grew up with extended family were were racists. Certain terms were just common to me...I didn't KNOW they were wrong at the time because these were people I loved. It wasn't until Christ opened my eyes to the wrongness of that attitude that I realized all the misleading I had had. That type of thing is repugnant to me now, but it took some time of having my eyes opened to see it for what it was.

[Cheryl in NM]

This!!! :iagree: But sadly, the discussion has not remained kind.

 

I saw one poster called "demented" because her thoughts didn't line up. Maybe someone knows something I don't and knows this person was a troll or something?? What it seemed to me was that this was a person who had been so accustomed to that type of situation that she probably felt less "shocked" by it than others. In that instance, if I were her and someone were to call me demented, I'd go into defense mode and not hear anything past that.

 

Example: I grew up with extended family were were racists. Certain terms were just common to me...I didn't KNOW they were wrong at the time because these were people I loved. It wasn't until Christ opened my eyes to the wrongness of that attitude that I realized all the misleading I had had. That type of thing is repugnant to me now, but it took some time of having my eyes opened to see it for what it was.

 

:iagree: It's odd that so many on this board preach tolerance and believe bullying is wrong. This thread, and so many others lately, have been lessons in bullying and shutting up those who are different or that you don't agree with.

 

It's really sad.

[justamouse]

I think what ppl object to is, "It is abuse, but..." that seems to be coming across in answers.

 

There is no 'but'. Its abuse. Period. Stone cold stop. Doesn't matter WHAT the girl did. Doesn't matter WHAT else was going on with the Dad. Doesn't matter how it started out, what the initial motivation was.

 

Its abuse. Period.

 

The passion behind the "flogging" (your words, not mine) is because Cheryl, while repeatedly agreeing the father was abusive, ALSO repeats and speculates in ways that seem to suggest the dd's behavior explains, mitigates, or fuels his fury. The posters are incredulous at the suggestion that a person holds the view that the child's behavior drives (ever) the need for power and control evidenced in the video.

 

I was once (and now professionally work with) abused women. Especially with religious women, there is a common mentality of "I'm human, too. I make mistakes. I sin." It can be very hard to transcend that quagmire. It is part of the *abuse cycle* and *abuse pattern* to either manufacture or capitalize on the existence of this kind of thinking. This leaves the abused person paralized and stuck. They might recognize some abuse; but since they also make "mistakes", they remain.

 

That is the type of thinking I see in Cheryl's posts. Related to the above is that, over time, abuse gets normalized. Abuse is systematic. It often starts *just* over the line. That issue is subject to the remorse/forgive/honeymoon cycle and becomes part of the normal of that family. The next episode is just a little past the original - apology/honeymoon. Repeat. Years later, things that are clearly, absolutely, 100% abuse are experienced as normal and only the most recent, or egregious events are seen as "abuse". This dynamic could explain the Mom in the posted event (but I don't know enough about THIS case to say for sure).

 

:iagree:

 

:iagree: It's odd that so many on this board preach tolerance and believe bullying is wrong. This thread, and so many others lately, have been lessons in bullying and shutting up those who are different or that you don't agree with.

 

It's really sad.

 

 

They're not bullying you. You are seeing flat out astonishment in that there's always a ...but, added to your comments.

 

There's no tolerance where abuse is concerned. Calling it abuse and repeatedly calling it abuse is not intolerance.

[Cheryl in NM]

:iagree:

 

 

 

 

They're not bullying you. You are seeing flat out astonishment in that there's always a ...but, added to your comments.

 

There's no tolerance where abuse is concerned. Calling it abuse and repeatedly calling it abuse is not intolerance.

 

I've actually called it abuse more than anyone else in this thread. I wasn't talking only about me or about this thread. I just hung in longer than anyone else. I don't need the approval of anyone on this board. My opinions are mine and I really don't care if anyone disagrees with me. I just wanted other posters to quit twisting my words, which they didn't, but I've posted enough in this thread to get my pov out there. It's there, that was my intent, not to sway anyone to my opinion.

[FiveOaksAcademy]

"Flogging" is a odd word to use here.

 

Of course. I always forget...if I'm going to step in and offer something people don't want to hear, I had better dissect my own words before I throw them out there. :D

[[email protected]]

And with that, we have clearly reached the end of useful conversation on this topic.

 

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