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zenjenn
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It was here I first heard the term "2E" when I described my eldest daughter - and I had to look it up - "twice exceptional".

 

I never read much more about it but I know why it's called that.

 

Exceptionally Awesome in some areas

Exceptionally WTF in others.

 

:banghead:

 

That is all.

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With mine, it is actually a split personality with academics. I almost posted this in the learning disability forum. Math calculation, spelling, straight-up phonetic decoding and speech articulation are just a train wreck.

 

Grammar, context reading, reading comprehension (oral and written), writing, art - straight-up awesome.

 

How can can a 9 yr old who can accurately relate to me everything she has EVER read or heard almost flawlessly, including laws from Hammurabi's Code, still occasionally miscalculate 5+1? I mean, really? :glare:

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Yes, I believe I was 2E, although they didn't have that term way back when (I am 43).

 

I practically cannot remember life before reading on a college level. Anything involving reading at school was way, way above grade level. I have evidence that I was reading and writing full sentences before my fourth birthday. (I didn't believe this tale until my grandmother produced the evidence--a thank you note from me with two full sentences that on the other side had a note from my mother describing what had happened at my fourth birthday party.) I devoured piles of books, from the time I can remember, and in high school, my common practice was to read my whole anthology for that year before classes began.

 

But.

 

Math. I remember crying over addition flash cards in first grade. It never got any better. Algebra 1 and 2 were complete torture sessions. COMPLETE.

 

I like the way one of the other posters put it--I was an academic split personality. I always felt like I was hanging on to grade level by a fingernail in math, but was always WAY over the top in any reading-based subject. I was quite the odd duck. I am grateful that I was in a small Christian school in K-8 that gave me individual attention in those early years.

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With mine, it is actually a split personality with academics. I almost posted this in the learning disability forum. Math calculation, spelling, straight-up phonetic decoding and speech articulation are just a train wreck.

 

Grammar, context reading, reading comprehension (oral and written), writing, art - straight-up awesome.

 

How can can a 9 yr old who can accurately relate to me everything she has EVER read or heard almost flawlessly, including laws from Hammurabi's Code, still occasionally miscalculate 5+1? I mean, really? :glare:

 

Has she been assessed for dyslexia or other learning disabilities?

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How can can a 9 yr old who can accurately relate to me everything she has EVER read or heard almost flawlessly, including laws from Hammurabi's Code, still occasionally miscalculate 5+1? I mean, really? :glare:

 

I *totally* get it. My 9 year old sometimes writes the first letter of her name backwards. *Every time* it happens I'm like "Wha???" She's been writing her name for 6.5 years! (Dyslexia.)

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With mine, it is actually a split personality with academics. I almost posted this in the learning disability forum. Math calculation, spelling, straight-up phonetic decoding and speech articulation are just a train wreck.

 

Grammar, context reading, reading comprehension (oral and written), writing, art - straight-up awesome.

 

How can can a 9 yr old who can accurately relate to me everything she has EVER read or heard almost flawlessly, including laws from Hammurabi's Code, still occasionally miscalculate 5+1? I mean, really? :glare:

Because Hammurabi's code has a meaningful context which allows the information to be easily filed & retrieved, whereas math facts (and spelling words) do not, and so they end up, in DS's words, "on little scraps of paper scattered all over the floor in [his] brain." Are you familiar with the Eides' work? The Mislabeled Child was a huge revelation to me when I was trying to figure DS out, and their newest book, The Dyslexic Advantage: Unlocking the Hidden Potential of the Dyslexic Brain, is terrific. Lots of great stuff on their blog as well. Once you understand how these kids' brains work, the kind of discrepancies you describe aren't surprising at all.

 

Yup. My older DS has an IQ of 141, but cannot tie his shoes or follow multi-step directions. At all. And has been known to wear his clothes backward because he is not paying attention while he is getting dressed.

This is my DS exactly! He didn't learn to tie his shoes until his feet got so big I couldn't find velcro shoes any more — and he still prefers to wear Crocs, even in the rain, rather than bother with tying shoes. And what's with the backwards shirts??? How can put your shirt on backwards more than 50% of the time — that's not just random error! :lol:

 

Jackie

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And what's with the backwards shirts??? How can put your shirt on backwards more than 50% of the time — that's not just random error! :lol:

 

Jackie

 

:lol::lol: Let's add to that the almost always inside-out and backwards shirt coupled with inside-out pants with pockets hanging out. Should we discuss backward underwear too?:lol:

 

 

I'm a VSL and have a difficult time memorizing things devoid of meaning. In college I figured out how to memorize facts by attaching them to a meaningful context. I would make large diagrams on the floor of things in my dorm room demonstrating the different elements and how they worked together in the story I made up. It worked. Meanwhile my roommate shook her head at me and memorized everything in 10 minutes. I remembered what I memorized years later. She didn't.

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:lol::lol: Let's add to that the almost always inside-out and backwards shirt coupled with inside-out pants with pockets hanging out. Should we discuss backward underwear too?:lol:

 

I have a very funny photo of my then-6-year-old DS with his underpants on inside out and sideways (he'd mistaken the waist for a leg hole, and his little butt was hanging out the back), and a look of puzzled incomprehension on his face, as if someone had completely redesigned underpants overnight and no one told him. :lol:

 

Jackie

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Has she been assessed for dyslexia or other learning disabilities?

 

Yes, she is dyslexic. (That is, really, what "twice exceptional" means. Learning disabilities + aspects of giftedness, simultaneously.)

 

For example, this is her work (3rd grader). She has had art instruction, but this particular drawing was independent of any lesson or guidance:

 

291864_10150356555083812_620343811_8155396_1581169617_n.jpg

 

But she can't tie her shoes or add consistently.

 

I've learned to be patient and understanding, but I still need to come and vent about the "two steps forward, one step back" that is neverending with her. Smiling and putting on my Disneyland face doesn't mean I'm not screaming inside.

Edited by zenjenn
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:lol::lol: Let's add to that the almost always inside-out and backwards shirt coupled with inside-out pants with pockets hanging out. Should we discuss backward underwear too?:lol:

 

Ugh, this is my ds exactly- especially the underwear. How can you not notice your underwear is backwards!?! I told him a few days ago: "But you do it every time. At this point, it's not an accident. It's a choice!"

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Yes, she is dyslexic. (That is, really, what "twice exceptional" means. Learning disabilities + aspects of giftedness, simultaneously.)

 

 

Sorry, I couldn't tell from your OP if she was really 2E or just acting like it. I have one of each, one who is really 2E and one who is gifted but goes through periods of acting 2E.

 

That picture you posted is amazing!

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Yesterday morning ds9 was wearing two pairs of underwear because it made him feel more "snuggley".

 

Later he had his pajamas on backward and inside out. When asked why, he told me that they conducted better kinetic electricity that way. He was trying to light his bedroom lamp with static electricity and the help of a battery.

 

Ds has been tested and tested. He's not considered 2E by the "professionals" because his IQ was in the low average range. But is as far advanced in everything that doesn't require fine or gross motor skills as he is behind in things that do. His 4th grade spans 1st through 9th material this year. And he still sleeps with a stuffed Lamb.

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I have a very funny photo of my then-6-year-old DS with his underpants on inside out and sideways (he'd mistaken the waist for a leg hole, and his little butt was hanging out the back), and a look of puzzled incomprehension on his face, as if someone had completely redesigned underpants overnight and no one told him. :lol:

 

Jackie

 

Dd was of the sideways school of underwear too. Then for years we struggled to get her feet through her pajama legs, every single night. It finally turned out she thought "point your toes" meant pointing ONLY the toes and bunching up the rest of the foot the other way. Now this kid had been in gymnastics classes and dance classes and I COULD NOT figure out how in the world she never figured out how to point her toes when she could read college-level material.

 

At 15, dd STILL ties her shoes floppily and has to double-knot them to keep them from untying the minute she takes a step. She's "solved" this by never untying her shoes once she comes home from the shoe store where the salesperson tied them, ramming her feet into them each day and walking on the heels until she can push her entire foot back into her shoe. Sigh.

 

My dd is also one of those who could do algebraic equations and loved to speculate on prime numbers while she still could not accurately count out the birthday candles for her cake -- this was at age 8 or 9.

 

The extent of her difficulties in figuring out her own body was made vividly clear to me one day in vision therapy, aged twelve. She was lying on the floor on her stomach, eyes closed, with the job of raising whatever part of her body the therapist touched. The therapist touched her upper right arm and left foot; my daughter raised her left arm and right leg, pointing to her thigh as the part touched. My jaw is still sore from where it hit the floor.

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Our Nipponzan Myohoji monks solved the tieing shoes problem: toggles. You know those toggles that come on sleeping bag bags? You can put it on shoes, too. Thread the ends of both laces through the hole and just push the button on the end to tighten or loosen. They made me put these on my son's shoes before he went to Japan for three months when he was 13 because they had noticed he was having trouble tieing his shoes and they knew in Japan he would be taking his shoes on and off constantly. Talk about an example! He walked around Japan for three months with a group of adults, taking care of himself in a very foreign country, and he couldn't tie his shoes. Or print his name (he used cursive due to bad experiences with printing in public school). He has a weird skill set even now, at 21. Surviving college is being a challenge.

 

Nan

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My youngest wore his shirts inside out and backwards. I had forbidden him to chew the front of his shirt so he cleverly switched them so the tag was convenient to reach for chewing instead. He solved the underware problem by refusing to wear it at all. I think he also turned the shirts inside out so the seams wouldn't bother him. His older brother was similar. And they aren't my 2E ones. My 2E one was a lamb about his clothing, when he remembered clothing existed. Now he is very aware of style lol.

Nan

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I'm still sorting out the best approaches to suit his learning style. Did you ever figure out that issue of your dd's issues with mental math?

 

Cuissnare rods have been... absolutely incredible for her. I read about them on these forums. I was skeptical because we had used all kinds of other manipulatives that did not seem to help, but these have been amazing. We've been using them about three weeks now.

 

We have the wooden, non-lined rods like these:

 

stairstep.jpg

 

When using them, she can answer all addition and subtraction problems not only accurately, but without panic, tension, or emotional outbursts. Sometimes she doesn't even need to manipulate them - she can just look at them as a cue.

 

Now, that said.. she uses them. Her recall of very basic facts (sums up to 10, or differences 10 or less) she has improved, but sometimes she even inadvertently responds with color. If I said "What's 7+3" she might answer "orange" (which is the rod that represents 10.) For higher numbers, (8+7 for example) she can come to quick, calm conclusions with the rods (sometimes even without touching them), but can't quite do so without them.

 

I think there is something about the color and shape that is fits with the way her brain works. What I don't understand, is why she absolutely stops mixing operations when using the rods. I see how the rods would enable her to visualize values more clearly, but I don't understand why it puts a complete stop to switching +/- operations at random. Without rods, there is still a chance with even small sums/differences she will switch operations. This pretty much NEVER happens if rods are in front of her. :confused:

Edited by zenjenn
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I've learned to be patient and understanding, but I still need to come and vent about the "two steps forward, one step back" that is neverending with her. Smiling and putting on my Disneyland face doesn't mean I'm not screaming inside.

Have you read The Dyslexic Advantage, or other things about visual-spatial learners? Honestly, understanding why your DD thinks and learns and processes information the way she does — and how those things can also be advantages — may greatly reduce your frustration and the "screaming inside." And instead of "two steps forward, one step back" you may move towards something more like "three steps forward and a small pause."

 

To me, DS's VSL strengths far outweigh any "disabilities" — he's extremely creative, a deep thinker, an amazing artist, and a really sweet, affectionate kid. So what if his shoes are untied, his underwear is on backwards, and he occasionally forgets how to spell his last name? I love listening to the connections he makes and the insights he has, I love seeing his excitement over learning new things or accomplishing something that was really hard for him but finally "clicked." IMO, watching him poke around in a tub of river water & mud and suddenly yell "Planarians!!! There are tons of planarians in here! This is the best day of my entire life!!!" beats neatly filled-out worksheets any day. He's an incredibly interesting person and I genuinely enjoy his company — I wouldn't trade his unique 2E/VSL brain for an NT brain even if I could.

 

Jackie

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Later he had his pajamas on backward and inside out. When asked why, he told me that they conducted better kinetic electricity that way. He was trying to light his bedroom lamp with static electricity and the help of a battery.

:lol: This is exactly why I love kids like this! Honestly, I feel blessed not burdened to have such a cool, creative, entertaining kid. DS has an 11 yo PG Aspie friend who is so stinkin' smart and funny and off the wall I just love having him around, even if things get a little crazy sometimes. The other day DS was telling his friend what different groups of animals are called (a crash of rhinos, a murder of crows, a majesty of unicorns, etc.) and his friend said "Do you know what you call a dozen of me? An apocalypse of Aarons." :lol::lol::lol:

 

Yesterday morning ds9 was wearing two pairs of underwear because it made him feel more "snuggley".

Does he also like bear hugs, being "squished," and all that sensory stuff? DS really likes having a heavy, weighted blanket at night, and I'm thinking of getting him a chain mail shirt (in lieu of a weighted vest) for Christmas.

 

Ds has been tested and tested. He's not considered 2E by the "professionals" because his IQ was in the low average range. But is as far advanced in everything that doesn't require fine or gross motor skills as he is behind in things that do. His 4th grade spans 1st through 9th material this year. And he still sleeps with a stuffed Lamb.

Clearly you need to ignore the IQ figure you got from the "professionals." ;)

 

Jackie

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I almost posted this in the learning disability forum. Math calculation, spelling, straight-up phonetic decoding and speech articulation are just a train wreck.

 

A book that changed my life in many of these areas was Jeffrey Freed's Right-Brained Children in a Left-Brained World. Although Freed spends a good chunk of the first half of the book talking about ADD, which is his specialization, he's really talking about a wide range of VSL kids, including dyslexics, some spectrum kids, and ADD.

 

In the second half of the book there are individual chapters devoted to spelling, math computation, reading, and writing, with very specific methods for tapping into these kids' strengths rather than continually hammering them with well-intentioned but often inappropriate remediation of their weaknesses.

 

For my dd and spelling, to give you an example, this meant that I finally realized I could try to teach her phonetic spelling till the cows come home, and it was never going to stick, at least in part because she still has trouble with hearing and distinguishing vowel sounds. I just assumed she had to learn to spell phonetically, through word families, or other conventional linear-sequential methods, even though none of this had worked throughout her elementary years. Here was kid reading at college level who at age 11 or 12, in the words of a psychologist friend, couldn't spell cat. I was wondering whether I needed to go all the way back to the starting line and work on her perception of vowel sounds.

 

But Freed has a simple exercise which allows you to see whether or not your child may be a visual speller. It turned out that indeed this is dd's bent, with the added complication that she had visual memory deficits. Freed has an exceedingly simple, short method of developing those visual skills for spelling that takes all of ten minutes a day.

 

Within a year or 18 months, dd had leaped forward several grade levels in spelling. By age 14, she was spelling at grade level; and what impressed me more than this spelling in isolation was that she was carrying it over into her written work. Spelling is never going to be her greatest academic strength, but it's no longer the almost incapacitating disability it was only a few years ago. And almost more importantly for me, it validated dd's own perception of how she learned, helping her to trust her own understanding of herself and her mind.

 

The approach Freed recommends goes against the grain of conventional wisdom for how to remediate dyslexic spelling, but it completely changed our academic world. Since his book is in many libraries, here's a chance to try out a different approach for no financial investment and just a few minutes of your time (read the chapters first all the way through, then do the activities with your child).

 

His approach for teaching writing to VSL kids is likewise a universe away from conventional methods.

 

Together, the Freed book and the Eides' books make a good package for finding ways to work with, rather than against, your VSL child. Jackie says it turns into three steps forward and a short pause; for us, it's been more like three gigantic Olympic long-jump level leaps forward, with pauses for processing and mental rest.

Edited by Guest
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Oh, this is so wonderful!!

 

(Do you know James Lipton's book "An Exaltation of Larks?" More than a thousand hilarious collective nouns; here's one for your little guy: an entrenchment of archaeologists; oh, here's another: an attic of Greeks.)

 

Best,

HG

 

Thank you for another great book recommendation. I ordered it this morning.

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Ugh, this is my ds exactly- especially the underwear. How can you not notice your underwear is backwards!?! I told him a few days ago: "But you do it every time. At this point, it's not an accident. It's a choice!"

 

The Drama does that with her shoes. She put them on the wrong way every time, and eventually told me that she LIKES them that way and refuses to fix it.

 

 

I was have a 2-:banghead: moment yesterday with The Sponge. Brilliant, gifted in science and logic at least, but oh, the ADD and VSL will drive me mad.

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Just thought I would point out that being asynchronous, and being 2E are different beasts. :D

 

True. The shoes on backwards is just The Drama being herself.

 

The Sponge's ADD though, aaaaaaaaaaaaa--squirrel!--aaaaaaaaah!!!!!

 

I just found out that my library has the Right Brained Children book though. Library trip!

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I have a very funny photo of my then-6-year-old DS with his underpants on inside out and sideways (he'd mistaken the waist for a leg hole, and his little butt was hanging out the back), and a look of puzzled incomprehension on his face, as if someone had completely redesigned underpants overnight and no one told him. :lol:

 

Jackie

 

This is what I was thinking.

 

:iagree: My ds is very good in science but such a late talker (I was a late talker myself). I can't figure out how ds can understand atoms and talk about the particles and stuff and yet he cannot put his shoes on (I mean velcro strap shoes!). He struggles with a knife and a fork but knows everything about ships. What, WHAT is going on in his brain???

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:iagree: My ds is very good in science but such a late talker (I was a late talker myself). I can't figure out how ds can understand atoms and talk about the particles and stuff and yet he cannot put his shoes on (I mean velcro strap shoes!). He struggles with a knife and a fork but knows everything about ships. What, WHAT is going on in his brain???

 

 

Yes, my son can't color in the lines, but taught himself to read at 2.5. Sure makes things interesting. :lol:

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Just thought I would point out that being asynchronous, and being 2E are different beasts. :D
Yes.

 

2E='twice exceptional'= gifted + a learning disorder

DH is 2E. He's gifted and dyslexic.

 

asynchronous="uneven intellectual, physical, and emotional development" (I'd throw 'spiritual' in there, too, because I find it different than emotional.)

DS9 is asynchronous. Scary smart, but small motor skill issues make it hard for him to hold a pencil or tie shoes. Speech issues, too. For an example of the clash between intellectual and emotional development, my son frequently calls from the bedroom at night, "Mommy! I can't get to sleep because I'm struggling with distinguishing real and fantasy again!":lol:

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Yes.

 

2E='twice exceptional'= gifted + a learning disorder

DH is 2E. He's gifted and dyslexic.

 

asynchronous="uneven intellectual, physical, and emotional development" (I'd throw 'spiritual' in there, too, because I find it different than emotional.)

DS9 is asynchronous. Scary smart, but small motor skill issues make it hard for him to hold a pencil or tie shoes. Speech issues, too. For an example of the clash between intellectual and emotional development, my son frequently calls from the bedroom at night, "Mommy! I can't get to sleep because I'm struggling with distinguishing real and fantasy again!":lol:

Asynchronous! Yes, yes. That's it!!!

 

Do the ever catch up? :crying: Please tell me they do...?

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Asynchronous! Yes, yes. That's it!!!

 

Do the ever catch up? :crying: Please tell me they do...?

 

Yes, they do.

 

The practical difference between asynchrony and 2E is that an asynchronous child will catch up to himself (usually fairly quickly, within a few years), whereas a gifted child with learning disabilities or other issues will always struggle to some extent.

 

A young child who is asynchronous will be able to do most everything age peers can do. So by the time college admissions roll around, for example, he will be able to show what he knows on college entrance exams without having to petition the College Board for accommodations that may or may not be granted. A child with LDs will need special testing and then needs to hope he is seen as disabled enough to qualify for accommodations. Many times the giftedness will make a kid look average, which is good enough for the College Board--meaning no accommodations, average or worse performance on the exams, and being shut out of schools that should be open to the kid.

 

Asynchrony is frustrating, but it is a *temporary* condition. Being 2E can be a lifelong struggle, though it usually gets easier with age. There is no comparison between asynchrony and 2E.

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Yes, they do.

 

The practical difference between asynchrony and 2E is that an asynchronous child will catch up to himself (usually fairly quickly, within a few years), whereas a gifted child with learning disabilities or other issues will always struggle to some extent.

 

A young child who is asynchronous will be able to do most everything age peers can do. So by the time college admissions roll around, for example, he will be able to show what he knows on college entrance exams without having to petition the College Board for accommodations that may or may not be granted. A child with LDs will need special testing and then needs to hope he is seen as disabled enough to qualify for accommodations. Many times the giftedness will make a kid look average, which is good enough for the College Board--meaning no accommodations, average or worse performance on the exams, and being shut out of schools that should be open to the kid.

 

Asynchrony is frustrating, but it is a *temporary* condition. Being 2E can be a lifelong struggle, though it usually gets easier with age. There is no comparison between asynchrony and 2E.

 

I see...Thank you for the encouraging words. No, I am not taking LDs lightly. Just trying to understand all the different concepts. As I said before I was a really late talker,and some sounds proved to be a challenge- however I went on to be top in class in literature. However I cannot tie bows properly -or rather, they come out rather ugly. Ds is a late talker and has some speech issues. I am still trying to figure things out.

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Does 2E only relate to learning abilities? For instance, if a child has life long difficulties with gross motor skills and is gifted would he be considered 2E?

 

2E actually extends to any second exceptionality though the most common interpretation is that the second exceptionality is a learning disability.

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2E actually extends to any second exceptionality though the most common interpretation is that the second exceptionality is a learning disability.

 

:iagree:

 

I have two 2E daughters.. They have a variety of diagnoses... everything from auditory processing disorder to OCD. They do have a couple of learning disabilities in the mix as well... oh, and Asperger's... is there a such thing as 3E or 4E?:lol: just kidding..

 

My 10yr old has a confirmed FSIQ in the 140's, but she works only at grade level in all subjects. Her auditory processing and overall slow processing speed really screws things up for her.

 

My 14yr old has a split IQ... verbal is in the 140's.. nonverbal is low average. This is a common presentation for Asperger's and Nonverbal Learning Disorder. She really struggles with math.

 

My 3rd daughter has a variety of diagnoses, including Asperger's, but her IQ is average so she is not 2E.

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Just thought I would point out that being asynchronous, and being 2E are different beasts. :D

 

 

DD4 is probably asynchronous then. She can talk your ear off about black holes, types of galaxies and supernovae but she's being evaluated next week for occupational and physical therapy because she can't draw a stick figure and holds utensils with her fist. She can barely hop on one foot. With work, I'm hoping that she'll just seem a little clumsy.

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DD4 is probably asynchronous then. She can talk your ear off about black holes, types of galaxies and supernovae but she's being evaluated next week for occupational and physical therapy because she can't draw a stick figure and holds utensils with her fist. She can barely hop on one foot. With work, I'm hoping that she'll just seem a little clumsy.

 

This is my DS too. He's been in OT for 8 months, and it's definitely helping in those areas. He will never be a sports star, but he looks a little less clumsy. :001_smile:

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:lol: Does he also like bear hugs, being "squished," and all that sensory stuff? DS really likes having a heavy, weighted blanket at night, and I'm thinking of getting him a chain mail shirt (in lieu of a weighted vest) for Christmas.

 

Clearly you need to ignore the IQ figure you got from the "professionals." ;)

 

Jackie

 

Yes, he always asks for tighter hugs... like dad gives. His SPD is severe in both extremes. When we first started Occupational therapy 4yrs ago he was avoiding with almost all sounds and light and seeking with oral, proprioceptive and vestibular stimuli. Touch was both avoiding and seeking. He was a weird one with not feeling when his clothes where on wrong but being driven crazy by itchy tags. And screaming at the top of his voice that everyone was being too loud.

 

He has a Benik vest, but he started chewing on it, so we had to discontinue using it. We tried a weighted lap blanket but he just played with it too much. He has a lot of deep pressure games in is sensory diet now. As he is getting a bit older he seems to need a little less then he used too though.

 

He started Physical Therapy at the beginning of this year and I think that it has made a big difference in his more clumsy behaviors. But the boy still can't tie his shoes.

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