Pondering PS for older DD

[shinyhappypeople]

Think this through with me (again)? I'm very seriously considering PS for my 8 yo, starting after Christmas break.

 

She is driving me NUTS, picks fights with her little sister frequently (multiple times a day), is actively resistant to my attempts to teach her 70% of the time (griping, crossing her arms and refusing to look at the book/page/me/whatever) and says she really wants to go back to school. She's also intensely social, loves people and is invigorated by being in a group.

 

If older DD were in PS, I could focus my attention on younger DD who *wants* to be here (she likes the perks of hs'ing) and is open to me teaching her.

 

On the other hand, I'm worried about bullying and teasing and general social influences. When she was in PS for K, I saw her personality change from sweet to more jaded (yeah, a jaded FIVE year old. So sad.)

 

She needs a lot of rest and would have to be ASLEEP by 7 p.m. to get up early for school and survive the day.

 

She's academically behind and, although we're calling her a 3rd grader based on age and when she started PS kindergarten, if she went to PS we'd enroll her as a 2nd grader. She's fine with this, so it's not really a pro or con, I guess. I'm just tossing it out there to give a bit more info.

 

If I could figure out a way to counteract the mediocre social influence of her public school at home, I think I might actually do it.

 

DH strongly prefers homeschooling her, but he'll trust my judgment if I really feel that PS would be a better option for now. However, I prefer to have him supportive and on board, so when I whine about what a pain the PS is being, he can properly sympathize.:001_smile:

 

What do you think? Are there any pros/cons I've overlooked? Any ideas about dealing with the negative aspects of PS?

[TranquilMind]

Think this through with me (again)? I'm very seriously considering PS for my 8 yo, starting after Christmas break.

 

She is driving me NUTS, picks fights with her little sister frequently (multiple times a day), is actively resistant to my attempts to teach her 70% of the time (griping, crossing her arms and refusing to look at the book/page/me/whatever) and says she really wants to go back to school. She's also intensely social, loves people and is invigorated by being in a group.

 

If older DD were in PS, I could focus my attention on younger DD who *wants* to be here (she likes the perks of hs'ing) and is open to me teaching her.

 

On the other hand, I'm worried about bullying and teasing and general social influences. When she was in PS for K, I saw her personality change from sweet to more jaded (yeah, a jaded FIVE year old. So sad.)

 

She needs a lot of rest and would have to be ASLEEP by 7 p.m. to get up early for school and survive the day.

 

She's academically behind and, although we're calling her a 3rd grader based on age and when she started PS kindergarten, if she went to PS we'd enroll her as a 2nd grader. She's fine with this, so it's not really a pro or con, I guess. I'm just tossing it out there to give a bit more info.

 

If I could figure out a way to counteract the mediocre social influence of her public school at home, I think I might actually do it.

 

DH strongly prefers homeschooling her, but he'll trust my judgment if I really feel that PS would be a better option for now. However, I prefer to have him supportive and on board, so when I whine about what a pain the PS is being, he can properly sympathize.:001_smile:

 

What do you think? Are there any pros/cons I've overlooked? Any ideas about dealing with the negative aspects of PS?

I would never put a child in school because she is driving me nuts or resistant to work. And yes, I've had both of those problems. Those are problems that won't change simply because she goes elsewhere for schoolwork. And seriously, how likely is it that she will be asleep by 7 pm. We haven't even had dinner by 7 half the time.

 

Is the work too hard for her? Are you consistent in your requirements, or lackadaisical (been there, done that). Does she get enough sleep now? Is there another issue that needs attention? I'd ask those questions first. And maybe you have.

 

I would only put a kid in school for academic reasons; if the school offers something I cannot duplicate or exceed. If your husband "strongly prefers" homeschooling, AND you have already had negative school experiences with this child, I think I'd rethink this. You might just be having a bad stretch but it will get better.

[KarenC]

That leaves plenty of time for social activities. School work is not an option here. Assuming the work is at an appropriate level for her, I would cut her absolutely no slack.

 

In this house, she would stand in the corner until she was ready to work. My middle dd spent 3 hours standing in the corner one day until she was ready to work. Hunger made the decision for her. I let her eat, then she did her school work. The next day she refused again to do her school work and I sent her back to the corner. She walked over and stood in the corner for about 3 seconds, then decided school was the better option. I had to threaten the corner a couple of times after that, but she always decided to work instead.

 

There's no way I would consider public or private school in this case.

 

Good luck,

Karen

[twoforjoy]

Ah. Another JAWM post. I get it. Enjoy. :)

 

I didn't see that in her post, or her reply, at all. Being upset because somebody accuses you of being either unable or unwilling to parent your child is a different thing from wanting everybody to agree with you.

 

Anyway, as to the OP, does your daughter understand what school would entail? I'm just wondering, if she went to a kindy that had a lot of playtime, if maybe she thinks that second or third grade would be something it isn't. If she balks at you asking her to do work, she's going to balk at the amount of work she's asked to do in ps. Does she generally have a better attitude around other people than around you? Do you think she'd have the same problems she's having with you at school?

 

That's one major reason why, even when DS drives me crazy, I generally don't consider putting him in school. I know him, and I know he'd be just as bad if not worse in school. So, I'd still need to change the behaviors, but I'd have less time to do it, and I'd be worried all day about how he was doing in school. But some kids really do seem to behave much better when they are around adults other than their parents.

 

What are your long-term plans? If you're planning on homeschooling her again at some point, I'd probably be hesitant to put her in ps, because you'd probably have to deal with all of these issues all over again. But if you were thinking ps would be for the long-term, that wouldn't be an issue.

 

Do you want to be homeschooling her? I guess I'd see that as the most central thing. If you want to be homeschooling her, I'd probably do whatever it took to make it work. But if you don't want to be--which I think is completely and totally okay, since homeschooling is not a requirement for being a loving, caring, good parent--then I wouldn't continue to do something that seems to be making both you and your daughter miserable.

 

Oh, but there is also homework to consider, and whether that would make every afternoon (and pretty much all the time you spend with her during the week, if she's going to bed at 7) miserable for both of you. If homework is going to be a two-hour battle each night, that's really not all that much better than school being a 3-4 hour battle, you know?

Edited October 1, 2011 by twoforjoy

[ktgrok]

Getting this thread back on track... from my OP:

Are there any pros/cons [of having DD return to PS] that I've overlooked? Any ideas about dealing with the negative aspects of PS?

 

What makes you think you can get her to do her homework any more easily than you can make her do her regular schoolwork? (BTDT)

 

Also, what message does it send that being defiant and rude and uncooperative gets you your way?

 

Trust me, I get it. My son is a handful, and there are days I wish I had sent him to school as he is fighting me tooth and nail. He wants to go to PS. But it isn't best for him, and I certainly am not going to send him just because he is throwing tantrums over his work. That isn't going to be rewarded.

[speedmom4]

Is this a continual problem or do you think your dd is just going through a phase? If she doesn't enjoy learning at home I would seriously consider school. My relationship with my children comes before homeschooling. Some people are just happier when they are surrounded by other people.

 

But, if this is something new or has to do with puberty, you might want to wait it out. We have had some rough years homeschooling but something inside of my always kept me going. I wanted to quit so many times. I am now so glad that I never did. My teenagers are awesome (not perfect) and I have a great relationship with them. I don't know if that would be the case if they had gone to school. Although, I do know mothers and public schooled daughters who have fabulous relationships.

 

I always try to dig deep and find out what my instincts are telling me to do. They have rarely steered me wrong.

 

HTH,

Elise in NC

[Pamela H in Texas]

I think that sometimes Ria is right. Too many people consider school because they haven't found a discipline option that works for their child and family. This is sad because school rarely fixes that issue, it just changes it. A lot of times it changes it for the worst and the family has more issues packed into a shorter amount of time.

 

HOWEVER, I don't have a choice but to have my three middle children in school at this time (they are foster children). And honestly, it has been a really good thing all the way around for two of them. They behave better at school. They are more pleasant around here. We are able to before and after school. They are away from one another (something these particular children *needed* which is almost NEVER the case for 99+% of kids!). Even for the littlest, there are some definite benefits to going to school despite the significant trouble he is having there behaviorally. And honestly? I believe *I* am a better parent to them currently with this set up. I wouldn't want it this way forever, but I do think it can be a good thing while we *have* to do it anyway.

 

You really have to judge for yourself whether your issues are more typical and just needing better discipline and changing things up to meet your daughter's needs OR if you do have a situation that may actually be improved by her attending school. It is *rarely* the latter, imo; and you need to consider that carefully because you wouldn't want to make her behavior worse.

 

I hope this made some amount of sense. Though Ria's response was written a bit harshly (imo), I do think it is spot on for the majority of families. You might try to read it in the very best light and see if the shoe fits. If the shoe doesn't fit, no need to be offended; just try another on :)

[shinyhappypeople]

Is this a continual problem or do you think your dd is just going through a phase? If she doesn't enjoy learning at home I would seriously consider school. My relationship with my children comes before homeschooling. Some people are just happier when they are surrounded by other people.

 

But, if this is something new or has to do with puberty, you might want to wait it out. We have had some rough years homeschooling but something inside of my always kept me going. I wanted to quit so many times. I am now so glad that I never did. My teenagers are awesome (not perfect) and I have a great relationship with them. I don't know if that would be the case if they had gone to school. Although, I do know mothers and public schooled daughters who have fabulous relationships.

 

I always try to dig deep and find out what my instincts are telling me to do. They have rarely steered me wrong.

 

HTH,

Elise in NC

 

Good question. It's only really become a big problem in the last 6 months or so. Before that we had our struggles, but nothing like this. She did fairly well academically last year.

 

When she's in class situations like gymnastics and ballet she does very well. I'm not sure how well that would translate to a school setting.

 

I'd planned to homeschool her through at least middle school, but now... I don't know. I need lots of time to think this through.

[leeannpal]

I think Ria was over the top rude, and there is a reason that people send PM's. On another board I frequent, posting a private message can get you kicked off.

 

To the OP, I understand where you are coming from. I can imagine that a really sociable kid might have difficulties with homeschooling, especially if there are other issues involved like the hormonal problem.

 

Personally, I just wish more people would remember the old adage about walking a mile in someone else's shoes.

Edited October 1, 2011 by leeannpal

[AK_Mom4]

DS15 was homeschooled, but we decided to send him to public school for high school at his request. Not exactly the same situation as yours, but sorta close.

 

The worst part of public school for DS is being bored. He was used to moving at his own pace and now he has to wait for the class. Since your DD is behind, maybe it won't be a problem.

 

The next negative is the schedule. DS15 needs LOTS of sleep. He is the only high schooler he knows with a 9pm bedtime. He gets tired and grumpy and no fun to be around after a long day at school. Sounds like your DD may have the same problem.

 

A third negative is just a maybe - if she is starting puberty at 8yo, is she going to be physically more mature and subject to teasing? Kids can be brutal and that's something I would worry about for sure.

 

On the positive side, you would get a chance to recharge yourself during the day. That would make it easier to deal with the grumpy child even if her attitude didn't improve. I know how wearing it can be to deal with a resistant kid and having some time apart is no bad thing. Also, it lets you be the good guy for a change and build up your relationship when you are together, rather than fighting all the time.

 

HTH

[Little Nyssa]

Cam you explore the local PS -- I've been pleasantly surprised by ours-- Maybe it could be a good experience--

[Meriwether]

is actively resistant to my attempts to teach her 70% of the time (griping, crossing her arms and refusing to look at the book/page/me/whatever) and says she really wants to go back to school. .

 

 

I would treat this however you would treat any other kind of disobedience. I've never understood why some families seem to put school in a different category than life in general. If she isn't allowed to cross her arms and refuse to clean her room, then she shouldn't be allowed to cross her arms and refuse to do school.

 

This may seem harsh (you'd have to know me and my daughter to see a true picture), but it was very effective. For a year I have put up with my Dd8 slacking off on her Latin. Why? 1. Latin is not a requirement. It doesn't have to be done. 2.She is the most unbelievably wonderful child to homeschool - she is quick to learn, mostly self-motivated, and very willing to work. Teaching her mostly consists of me giving her a stack of stuff and helping if she doesn't understand something. She has not wanted to drill her Latin vocabulary words. I would say that she needed to do flashcards and she would quietly disappear for a bit (while I worked with her brothers) until I had forgotten about Latin. Or I would try to do them with her while making supper and she would give me mournful looks and take 4x too long to answer even if she knew the word. I put up with this kind of thing for a year. We are still finishing last year's Latin.:glare: She tried it again last week. She was doing a review chapter and she didn't know most of the words. I asked her to listen to the chant CDs which I had just got to help with practice, and she just sat there and wouldn't actively participate. I finally realized she was acting like this because I was letting her. So I sat her down at 9:00 that morning and told her that she would get nothing to eat until she knew those words. It is amazing how fast she learned those words. And the attitude disappeared - she wanted to learn them. She had recited four chapters worth of chants and vocab words by 10:30. It isn't uncommon for me to require something be done before they can eat, but it is always an easily attainable goal if they put any effort in. Usually it is finish this math paper and then you will be ready for lunch.

[Friederike in Persia]

I

 

HOWEVER, I don't have a choice but to have my three middle children in school at this time (they are foster children). And honestly, it has been a really good thing all the way around for two of them. They behave better at school. They are more pleasant around here. We are able to before and after school. They are away from one another (something these particular children *needed* which is almost NEVER the case for 99+% of kids!). Even for the littlest, there are some definite benefits to going to school despite the significant trouble he is having there behaviorally. And honestly? I believe *I* am a better parent to them currently with this set up. I wouldn't want it this way forever, but I do think it can be a good thing while we *have* to do it anyway.

 

You really have to judge for yourself whether your issues are more typical and just needing better discipline and changing things up to meet your daughter's needs OR if you do have a situation that may actually be improved by her attending school. It is *rarely* the latter, imo; and you need to consider that carefully because you wouldn't want to make her behavior worse.

 

I hope this made some amount of sense. Though Ria's response was written a bit harshly (imo), I do think it is spot on for the majority of families. You might try to read it in the very best light and see if the shoe fits. If the shoe doesn't fit, no need to be offended; just try another on :)

 

:iagree:

 

Asking on this board you'll obviously get a lot of mums bidding for hs. But I agree with the above.

Mine have been in ps for some part of last year and whereas it wasn't perfect, our hs isn't either. Behaviourwise I'm having to work a lot with my dds right now, when it comes to attitude. Having been in close contact with their teachers, they didn't pull any of this at their respective schools. Ps might give you enough of a breather to be happy and energetic to deal with her when she's home.

[Terabith]

If it makes you feel any better, my almost 8 year old has been absolutely wretched to be around. We've talked about putting her in school, in the hopes that other kids would help her get the message that she is not the best at everything in the world. I don't honestly think it would help, and we're working on the discipline, but it's not really my strength, and it seems like once I get a handle on parenting for a particular stage, she's moved onto another one. :glare:

 

My husband is coaching 7-8 year old girls soccer, and it seems that the issues we're struggling with in my daughter (just not being very pleasant/ having to punish to get compliance/ general lousy attitude/ self centered/ not being kind) are fairly typical of girls this age.

 

So, maybe part of it is the age. Good luck. I'm working on the parenting, and while I'm willing, it seems so much more complicated than a few years ago. I'm struggling with the question of how do you mandate a good attitude/ mood/ feelings? I keep telling her she is forming her character and actively working on being angry about things (even if she is outwardly compliant) is not a good thing. But.... yeah. :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

[shinyhappypeople]

I would treat this however you would treat any other kind of disobedience. I've never understood why some families seem to put school in a different category than life in general. If she isn't allowed to cross her arms and refuse to clean her room, then she shouldn't be allowed to cross her arms and refuse to do school.

 

 

The thing is, that she DOES receive consequences -- usually some variation of time out / go to your room. For a girl who loves PEOPLE this is not a consequence she relishes. However, we're having to do it daily, sometimes multiple times. Clearly, it's not working long term (though it does help calm and focus her for the moment) and I need to come up with another strategy, but I'm not sure what else to do. We don't hit/spank in our family, so that's totally out. Waiting on food isn't a great plan for her because she has low blood sugar tendencies. Thinking... thinking... thinking... :tongue_smilie:

 

Last night I was thinking about this and something occurred to me: rather than ditch home schooling altogether, maybe we just need to change how our home school functions. This may mean a change in philosophy or approach or.... I honestly don't know what, but it's something to think about at least.

 

I'm reading "The Big What Now Book of Learning Styles" by Carol Barnier and it's giving me a lot of good ideas. So, I guess that's a start.

 

Thanks for the replies. I appreciate them.

[shinyhappypeople]

If it makes you feel any better, my almost 8 year old has been absolutely wretched to be around...

 

My husband is coaching 7-8 year old girls soccer, and it seems that the issues we're struggling with in my daughter (just not being very pleasant/ having to punish to get compliance/ general lousy attitude/ self centered/ not being kind) are fairly typical of girls this age.

 

So, maybe part of it is the age. Good luck. I'm working on the parenting, and while I'm willing, it seems so much more complicated than a few years ago. I'm struggling with the question of how do you mandate a good attitude/ mood/ feelings? I keep telling her she is forming her character and actively working on being angry about things (even if she is outwardly compliant) is not a good thing. But.... yeah. :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

 

Actually that does make me feel much better to know it's not just her. And I hear you 100% on "how do you mandate a good attitude/feelings/etc". I don't want her to think that she has to stuff her uncomfortable feelings (frustration, anger, disappointment) and ALWAYS be cheerful and polite. However, part of emotional maturity is knowing how to manage and express her uncomfortable emotions while still being considerate of others and dealing with your responsibilities. She hasn't gotten that down yet, obviously. And, that's okay because she's EIGHT. But, it's just HARD as a mom to deal with day in and day out. And yes, I realize that this is what I signed up for, but... it still stinks.

 

Thanks for the hugs. I need them!!

[shinyhappypeople]

p.s. Has anyone used Accountable Kids?

[Jean in Newcastle]

Have you ever thought or read about tomato staking?

 

It sounds like you have two children? How old is the younger one?

 

I would definitely tomato stake the older. I would make have her next to me doing school of course, but also doing chores etc. I would make school more about learning WITH you. What has been finally working for dd9 is to do reading with her - she reads one page and I read one page; do math games with her; do projects together for history and science. She is helping me in the kitchen, in the laundry room etc. We talk and sing and are generally silly while we do so.

 

It isn't always easy. I often would like a break from her! But it is what she needs. And there are moments when she is doing a worksheet near me while I get something else done. (I've found that if I do things with her 60% of the time, she's fine being on her own for 40%.)

 

As far as consistency goes, it really takes longer than we think to see consistent results. At least that is my experience. I've found with dd9 that I have to choose certain things to focus on. I pounce on those things right away (not letting them escalate like I used to) and that helps a lot.

[OnTheBrink]

There's a scene in Sleepless in Seattle that sums up what you're going through. The scene is at the airport and Tom Hanks is seeing his gf off at the airport. She offers to bring the 8 year old a snow globe and he responds in a very sarcastic rude way. She looks up at Tom Hanks and he says, "He's 8." apologetically. She says, "He's good at it."

 

Your dd is good at being 8. ;) Keep being consistent with her and this phase will pass. How you handle it is crucial, though. Don't get emotional, don't let her get your goat. Don't let her have control of the parenting or the educating. If you and your dh have decided to home school, then home school. You're the parents, you decide this. If she is disobedient, she gets consequences for that like anything else. I'd never let a child of that age to determine something as important as how she's educated. If she needs some competition, put her in a sport and let her find out for herself that life's not about her. But, I'd never put a child in public school due to behavior problems. I promise you they'll get worse. There are valid reasons to put a child in school, but behavior isn't one of them.

 

:grouphug:

[Audrey]

The pros of ps are that it would be easier on you. The cons are that it will change your daughter's behaviour and attitudes -- likely for the worse. School is not going to fix her behaviour and attitudes. From what you've posted, that seems to be the issue foremost.

 

FWIW, 8 year olds are really good at being belligerent and obnoxious. Mine was. Most of the 8 year olds I've known were, too. It takes consistent effort to keep the 'snotties' at bay.

 

I have no idea what your parenting style is, so I don't have any advice to offer at to what, specifically, you should do. I would highly suggest doing a lot of research, though, and applying some consistent consequences for bad behaviour. Eventually (hopefully) you will find something that speaks to your daughter and encourages her to bring her attitude around.

 

Best to you. :)