I need to talk out loud here about writing OR How do a teach a Mule Child?

[PeterPan]

Dd doesn't like to write. Or put more accurately, writing is not an easy process for her. She enjoys researching, enjoys making notes, is bonkers right now for comparing/contrasting/arguing, that sort of thing. She's utterly opinionated and halts in her tracks like a bad mexican mule if she feels it doesn't fit, is unclear, is beneath her (yes I find this frustrating), etc.

 

So here's my problem. Nothing I've tried has fit her. Either I'm not mean enough to make it work in spite of her opinion (though remember she is neurologically and genetically part MULE, complete with furry ears) or I'm incapable of choosing well or something. I've listened to the advice to give her more freedom. Well she comes back and me saying she needs more structure, more instruction, more clear expectations. I've showed her about every curriculum and handbook I can think of (Jensens, Writer's Inc, Websters, CW, Wordsmith) and have sold off others like WS. I've tried making assignments to go with her history, but she says they're too open-ended and vague. I've tried giving her small, concrete tasks, and she balks at that.

 

Today we discussed formal academic writing vs. the more creative and personal stuff, and she's now saying she wants the formal stuff, that she wants time to research things and then write about them. Huh, my kid???

 

So just tell me what I'm doing wrong. I want so little. I just want her to write something and write well. I don't want her to write stupidity to fit a formula, when she has no concept of what she's trying to say or how to select important things. She has a natural level of expression that reflects the literature she reads, so I'm not looking for style. She's spitting on the 100 Days of Writing thing I tried with her, and I agree it was a light choice for her.

 

What she needs is something meaty and worthwhile but with plenty of clear, concrete structure. And I don't know what that is. I thought about taking the 6 categories of formal academic writing in the Writer's Inc handbook and using that as a spine, doing one type over two weeks, repeating three times, yielding 36 weeks of assignments. But that's how I decorate flowers too--there's no art to it. I think she wants something with the art, someone who has a touch and knows where this is going who could both bring some art and some humanity to it.

 

So read my mind. What in the WORLD am I looking for?

 

BTW, we do have access to a co-op writing class, but I only got to talk to the teacher briefly and have no clue about the caliber of the writing, how formulaic vs. thoughtful it would be, etc. In other words, I don't really want to pawn it off, not at this point. I'm just having trouble reading my Mule Child's mind, that's all. I *think* what it is is that she needs a more complicated, very clearly explained, set of tasks.

[lewelma]

I think you are looking for consistency. Tell her that she must write 1 paper a week that is 250 words (or something). M=outline; T,W= writing; H=editing/proofreading; F=typing. No whining, no arguing. Then, discuss with her what types of papers she wants to write. The topic/type can be her choice, but she must produce a paper a week. Notice, that she is not "writing" everyday. I like you idea from Writer's Inc.

 

Just an idea. I have a boy who is very similar.

 

Ruth

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I'm sorry, but I have to say I'm offended on your dd's behalf. Mule child? Genetically and neurologically part MULE with furry ears? Digs in her heels like a bad Mexican mule?

 

That is shocking language to me.

[PeterPan]

I'm sorry, but I have to say I'm offended on your dd's behalf. Mule child? Genetically and neurologically part MULE with furry ears? Digs in her heels like a bad Mexican mule?

 

That is shocking language to me.

 

Uh actually, I think dd would laugh, and anyone who has one would know what I'm talking about. (Which probably means I should let your comment drop, but whatever.) She's 2E, dyslexic, and there's something about them, wrapped up in the wiring, that just makes things harder. And if you have a kid like this you know what I mean.

[Kfamily]

I have no useful advice...:001_smile:...I thought I would just share in your frustration for a moment.:grouphug:

 

Math and some sciences are not my strongest subjects but I think I would jump all over the chance to teach Algebra and Physics and Chemistry over writing right now!:lol:

 

Like your dd, my dd does not need help with style. She has a very opinionated style and will rebelliously inform anyone that she intends to write this way (a more old-fashioned style...modeled after the books she loves) regardless of whether it is "modern" enough for today. And don't worry, I do plan on insisting she learn all that she needs to know to write for modern professors in college. She just prefers her own style. And like your dd, she has a lot she wants to say. I need something to help her understand the importance of communicating correctly what she means to anyone else. I'm working on this. She has high ambitions, but balks at the hard work of editing them to achieve the real result. I'm working on this too. Attitude is a lot of this. We are working hard on grammar. I started this later than I should have and then had trouble finding something we both could tolerate. I've finally found the right grammar books and we are working hard on them now. I would love to find something that allowed her to write from models of the literature she loves. I have the Killgallon books, and I need to look at them again and come up with a plan, but I wish I could find something that moved beyond the sentence level as Killgallon only covers sentences. I wish I could find something like this but that covered paragraphs and then essays. I'm not sure this exists and I cannot create or cobble together the right plan myself. I like CW, but I still need to figure out how to get us back into it and then make it work for us.

 

I totally sympathize. You are not alone!:grouphug:

Edited September 1, 2011 by Kfamily

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I don't know why you'd assume I have no experience with stubborn children or with homeschooling a twice-exceptional child. The truth is that I only lack experience with your brand of humor.

 

If your daughter really would laugh at that post, that's all that matters.

[PeterPan]

I think you are looking for consistency. Tell her that she must write 1 paper a week that is 250 words (or something). M=outline; T,W= writing; H=editing/proofreading; F=typing. No whining, no arguing. Then, discuss with her what types of papers she wants to write. The topic/type can be her choice, but she must produce a paper a week. Notice, that she is not "writing" everyday. I like you idea from Writer's Inc.

 

Just an idea. I have a boy who is very similar.

 

Ruth

 

Ruth, I don't know how you did it, but you read my mind. That would work.

 

Well I've written and rewritten 3 paragraphs here, but let me just say you've given me an epiphany. Thanks.

[PeterPan]

KFamily, you're so brilliant! Actually, that had been one of the GOOD things we had done with writing last year, and I had totally forgotten!! Toward the end of last year I tried this experiment with going back through the *skills* of say WT1/2 and CW Homer but applying them to more interesting models and doing it in a fresh way. We had a LOT of fun with it, if I do say so. I got multiple models of the same story in order to do the same basic material, via imitation, multiple ways during the week. So we analyzed the first model Monday and did a straight retelling. Tuesday analyze model 2 (same story, new version) but kick your retelling up a notch. Wednesday analyze model 3 and retelling kicking up up several more notches (change something major). That sort of thing. It was a much more interesting way to approach the work, rather than doing just one model all week long.

 

So now I'm trying to think with you here about how we could use that imitation and modeling with the Writer's Inc and academic writing and consistent expectations. Indeed, I think they *need* models. And the models do exist to the extent that the structures are of good writing (as opposed to canned high school writing). I kept telling her, as we flipped through Writer's Inc, that she could find that type of writing in Reader's Digest, and it really is true. There are also books of essays recommended by Janice in NJ and others. They're at your library. I checked some out, and they were really quite interesting to read.

 

Well let me chew on that. I think you're right that *imitation* and analysis, some interesting models, might be part of the solution.

[mcconnellboys]

I'm not going to be helpful because I did pawn mine off last year. I got it into my head that my version of your furry beast would argue less and perform better in a more public arena, writing for someone else with deadlines observed for an entire class as well as class discussion to validate the writing. Now the onus is off me as the "bad guy" who criticizes (no matter how constructively) and instead I'm the helper/facilitator who helps make sure the work is ready for the wider world.... Amazing what a shift in perspective can bring to the table....

[Kfamily]

Elizabeth, my older dd is very unique...:lol:... and I say that very lovingly. She has seen some of the many books I have collected to teach her writing, and so many of them are just not right for her. I have the Lively Art of Writing and other textbook style books, and the topics just absolutely destroy any enthusiasm she might have had. She wants to be a author when she grows up (so she says now). I do believe she has a keen interest in being an author. She loves words (reads the dictionary and has almost committed to memory the book Word Origins) and loves the passion she feels in conveying her thoughts and ideas for others. I really want to allow her to learn to write without forcing her to endure the types of topics and models used in some of these books. Truly, I wish I had more time and was better educated myself so that I could better prepare her. And for us, writing isn't just about meeting the deadline, checking off all of the boxes and meeting all of the structure requirements. Writing for my dd is all about her heart. So, I would have to be very careful about who took over this role of teaching if I ever decided to pass this on to someone else. I think she needs an older professor from England to meet her needs (like Tolkien himself).:lol:

Edited September 1, 2011 by Kfamily

[PeterPan]

I'm not going to be helpful because I did pawn mine off last year. I got it into my head that my version of your furry beast would argue less and perform better in a more public arena, writing for someone else with deadlines observed for an entire class as well as class discussion to validate the writing. Now the onus is off me as the "bad guy" who criticizes (no matter how constructively) and instead I'm the helper/facilitator who helps make sure the work is ready for the wider world.... Amazing what a shift in perspective can bring to the table....

 

Regena, yes, I remember you did this, lol! Ok, would it be TERRIBLE to sign her up for the co-op *and* do the once a week assignment? That might work. See my concern with the co-op was that it wouldn't be enough. How much writing do you have him doing on top of the writing class? Or maybe I shouldn't ask that? :)

[PeterPan]

Ok, well the deed is done. I called and have her going into the co-op writing class. The teacher is hitting a lot of the things I wanted to do with her, and it should be fine. I talked with her about extra assignments outside of the class, and her advice was to make sure dd has enough time carved to put forth her best effort on the class assignments. Then anything else she does is beyond that. I thought that was wise too.

 

So there, I've hired myself a mule wrangler. :)

[PeterPan]

Kfamily, what you're saying makes a lot of sense! Have you seen the Ellen McHenry course on the history of english? As far as writing teachers, I wonder if you'd be able to find somebody online who has as much a penchant for words as your dd? There was this one I looked at, and bless me I can't remember the name. This lady had a workbook she made herself that the students used, and I sort of recall it tried to go through the progymnasta. What I really liked about it was her enjoyment of WORDS and the way she handled the models. It was better than anything else I've seen in that respect. It wouldn't fit my dd, but it might fit yours. Well what a shame I can't remember. It gets mentioned here on and off. I *think* the lady was somehow associated with BYU, like maybe she had gone there or something.

[Kfamily]

If you think of the person/book you are trying to remember, please let me know. I would love to at least take a look at it. And if we get over to Japan and find some great co-ops or something else that looks good I might let her participate in that. It might do even my dd some good to have someone else correcting her and peers who are in the same situation. Perhaps even a semester would be enough to get her going and then we could finish the rest at home. I'll look into it. It looks like you have a plan for your dd, I know it always feels good to come to a solution. :grouphug:

[TKDmom]

It sounds like you got it solved, but I just wanted to add some more :grouphug:. I have a mule for a daughter, too. ;) And telling it to her face, when she is being particularly stubborn is a good way to get her to laugh hysterically, break the tension, and get her to listen to me. Today I spent 15 minutes in heated discussion with dd over whether possessive nouns are really nouns or adjectives. :tongue_smilie: This child is wearing me out...

[Capt_Uhura]

Kfamily - I wonder if your DD would like Image Grammar 2nd edition? I"m really enjoying reading it. The language, from quality literature, is just beautiful.

 

OHElizabeth - I'd love to have a link to those essays that Janice in NJ gave you. Pretty please??????? And can you please tell me more about Writer's Inc? What is it exactly? Is it the handbook you are referring to or the curriculum?

[Kfamily]

Thanks Capt Uhura, I'll take a look at Image Grammar.

[Capt_Uhura]

Make sure it's the 2nd edition. THere is quite a bit of new material compared to the first edition.

[PeterPan]

Uhura, the essays are in books you can find at the library. Do a board search for Janice and essays (high school board) and you'll find the titles. Or pop something like Best Essays into amazon and you'll pop up several. Yup, I just did that and the very first one (Best American Essays of the Century) is one of the books. Just check it out from the library to read, don't buy.

 

Kfamily--I don't know where it came from, but the name did come. It's Cindy Marsh (sp) and here's the website http://www.writingassessment.com/ Typical me, I only remembered the green border. ;)

 

And never fear, I've managed to solve and unsolve my problem a few times tonight. It will all sort out. Or I'll make a mistake and learn my lesson. :)

[Capt_Uhura]

OhElizabeth....Now that you mention that, I did check out one of those from the library!!! THanks for putting it on my radar again.

[mereminerals]

I completely understand where you are coming from. I have this exact same issue with my ds14. I decided when he was 12 to "pawn" his writing off onto someone else and signed him up for a paragraph writing class that year. This year he is taking Comp 2 at the same co-op. He really just responds totally differently to writing when it comes to being accountable to someone other than me. I know it is the correct thing to do for him as when trying to help him edit a paragraph for class earlier this week, we had a very heated discussion on a simple editing technique. I hope your daughter's experience will be as successful in her co-op class as my son's has been.

[PeterPan]

Yannah, thanks for sharing that! This is pathetic, but I'm having a hard time with this whole idea of her doing it through a co-op class, and I can't determine why. So good experiences are making me feel a bit more confident. :) Do you have him do extra assignments (writing in other subjects) on top of the co-op writing? Do you try to line up those content assignments with what they're learning in the co-op or just not worry about it? Or something different?

[Tiramisu]

Yannah, thanks for sharing that! This is pathetic, but I'm having a hard time with this whole idea of her doing it through a co-op class, and I can't determine why. So good experiences are making me feel a bit more confident. :) Do you have him do extra assignments (writing in other subjects) on top of the co-op writing? Do you try to line up those content assignments with what they're learning in the co-op or just not worry about it? Or something different?

 

We'll be trying Classical Composition this year. I'm only mentioning it because the description of the writing you came up with reminds me quite a lot of CC. Read, analyze, outline, retell with certain elements, retell with other elements, work on improving sentences, retell differently as in backwards, from the middle, or reduction. This is just the fable stage and the stories aren't going to be stimulating at this level, but I plan to get through it quickly and move on up if dd cooperates. It's like CW, just more streamlined, making it easier for me to manipulate to suit my own ends.

Edited September 2, 2011 by NJKelli

[mcconnellboys]

I still *try* for the weekly writing assignments at home, too, but last year I got him much more involved in math and science studies, so there just was not always enough time for history writing, too. He did/does have to keep a lab notebook for many of his science classes, which is quite a bit of writing.... I've got him doing quite a bit of science writing again this year, so we'll just have to see how the weekly history writing progresses.... I'm toying with a topic for the Civil War right now, because he's so into it. I'm thinking of having him research and write about the prison ships....

[mcconnellboys]

:tongue_smilie:I believe they were called muleskinners....

 

You can always drop the class if it's just horrible.... I've been pleased with the one my son is in - and he performs MUCH better for others....

 

I hope that all goes well for you!

[mereminerals]

I don't have him do any extra writing assignments as they are writing 2 3-5 paragraph papers a week. One week is doing the sloppy copy and the next is editing and writing the final papers. I don't think he would be very cooperative if I had him do more. That said, he will have to do some extra writing with Biology and History as the year progresses.

 

Yannah

 

Yannah, thanks for sharing that! This is pathetic, but I'm having a hard time with this whole idea of her doing it through a co-op class, and I can't determine why. So good experiences are making me feel a bit more confident. :) Do you have him do extra assignments (writing in other subjects) on top of the co-op writing? Do you try to line up those content assignments with what they're learning in the co-op or just not worry about it? Or something different?

[Create Your Ritual]

I also was thinking CC since we have started it this year. Perhaps an online class through Memoria Press. Circe also has the LToW online, & Scholars Online had a few courses I was interested in called Molding your Prose, Molding your Argument, and Molding your Style. They have writing workshops, etc. there as well.

 

http://www.scholarsonline.org/Info/writing.php

 

http://circeinstitute.com/online-academy/

 

When I read your post, and knowing VERY little about how to teach beyond my 10 years as a parent, my first thought was it might be a good idea to allow her to work with someone else on writing for a bit and see if perhaps there is more enthusiasm in a group environment (like your co-op idea) or a live class online. Good luck though!

[Create Your Ritual]

By the way here is a sample from the Scholar's Online class. -

 

http://classicalschool.blogspot.com/2008/08/classical-composition-rewriting-myths.html

[swimmermom3]

I'm sorry, but I have to say I'm offended on your dd's behalf. Mule child? Genetically and neurologically part MULE with furry ears? Digs in her heels like a bad Mexican mule?

 

That is shocking language to me.

 

:DI have one of those too. I know exactly what you mean, Elizabeth and it is directly traceable back to her sire, right?;)

[PeterPan]

:DI have one of those too. I know exactly what you mean, Elizabeth and it is directly traceable back to her sire, right?;)

 

Oh dear, that could mean it traces back to *me*. :lol:

 

Nope, dh is neurologically normal, healthy, hearty, and what have you. All the quirks are me.

 

Well I'm still pondering the writing. Over on the SN board I think wapiti is starting a parts to whole vs. whole to parts of writing process and instruction, so I'll go see what the come up with.

 

I also need to spend some time this weekend and get things more in order for my ds. A toddler very quickly makes it impossible to do ANYTHING but what he wants. Gotta keep working on that. Honestly, he seems to get harder, not easier, no matter how I try.

[ktgrok]

I'm sorry, but I have to say I'm offended on your dd's behalf. Mule child? Genetically and neurologically part MULE with furry ears? Digs in her heels like a bad Mexican mule?

 

That is shocking language to me.

 

Don't worry OP. As someone that is self described as part mule, I don't see it as offensive. But we really love animals in this house....my daughter's nickname is 'Potamus and my son was "monkey boy" most of his young childhood. As for me, I know i'm mule headed, and it has served me well. It is a great character trait sometimes....just not all the time, lol.

[ktgrok]

And wait, have you tried Writing with Skill??? You can download the first few weeks for free to try it. I think it is AMAZING and can't wait to start it. Totally independent, but there is a teacher's manual for you to help her when she gets stuck. Very specific assignments that cover things like word choice, etc.

[GoVanGogh]

As someone that is self described as part mule, I don't see it as offensive. But we really love animals in this house....my daughter's nickname is 'Potamus and my son was "monkey boy" most of his young childhood. As for me, I know i'm mule headed, and it has served me well. It is a great character trait sometimes....just not all the time, lol.

:lol:

I am forever telling my DH how stubborn my DS is and he always grins and tells me that DS came by that trait honestly. :tongue_smilie: Yes, I can be mule headed.

I thought the original post was funny, as we had had 'one of those moments' while schooling earlier that day. It reminded me of the scene in "A League of Their Own." Mule! Nag!

It can be a wonderful trait - served me well when DS was critically ill at birth. But it can also be a difficult trait and something stubborn people need to learn how to balance.

[PeterPan]

It reminded me of the scene in "A League of Their Own." Mule! Nag!

 

I had so forgotten that! That's hilarious!!!!!!!!!! :lol:

[PeterPan]

Katie--I signed up for the beta of WWS, which I guess is now ALL being published. I looked at it again, because I'm trying to figure out what I'm missing that everyone else is loving. All I can figure is that it's not a good fit for *her* even if it's fine for someone else. I can look at it again. Like I said, I just looked back at the beta materials again. Sigh.

 

She's really heavy into logic stage thinking now. She wants to research, compare, contrast, ponder, debate. So whatever I do needs to harness that.

[Another Lynn]

Oh E,

Have you looked at the WWS chapters past what you beta tested? We beta tested two weeks and then dropped it, so I understand where you're coming from. When I looked at the whole thing (a month or so ago) I could see where it would be much more beneficial than I originally gave it credit for. That said, we aren't using it either, LOL. (Not that it's what you're looking for.... but we're trying Jump In for now....) Next time we hit a brick wall, I may look back at WWS and where it's going again. I doubt we'd ever use it day in and day out, but it might be a handy reference for me.

 

(Btw, ALL is the next level of FLL - the grammar component)

 

Yes, I totally understand the mule thing. I have one too, and he got every bit of it from me, bless his stubborn heart!

[1Togo]

OhElizabeth,

 

If your daughter is in the "ponder, compare, etc." stage, take a look at CC. Have her run through the Fable and Narrative stages as quickly as possible and start on Chreia/Maxim. In that level of the progym, the student is given a thesis, and the assignments require her to provide a comparison, a converse, an analogy, an example, etc. CC provides structure, but the student can use whatever ideas she wants within the structure as long as the ideas are logical. Chreia/Maxim is a good fit for logic students.

[PeterPan]

OhElizabeth,

 

If your daughter is in the "ponder, compare, etc." stage, take a look at CC. Have her run through the Fable and Narrative stages as quickly as possible and start on Chreia/Maxim. In that level of the progym, the student is given a thesis, and the assignments require her to provide a comparison, a converse, an analogy, an example, etc. CC provides structure, but the student can use whatever ideas she wants within the structure as long as the ideas are logical. Chreia/Maxim is a good fit for logic students.

 

Hey Togo, you're stinkin' brilliant! I have looked at CC on and off, in fact was looking at it just yesterday, but somehow in my confused fog I couldn't sort out what would work from there. We did enough of CW Homer A and B (done my way, very rogue) that I would feel very comfortable going ahead and putting into a Chreia/Maxim level. And you're right that that's EXACTLY where she is mentally. I'm going to have to go look at their's and see what I think.

 

See that's the problem. Once you've done something like CW (even if you've done it a bit oddly), you're spoiled, knowing there is this next level of thought that can come into the writing, this spark.

 

Oh well, I'm rambling. I'll go look at that CC Chreia/Maxim and see how it calls to me.

 

Well I'm back. I couldn't make much of the CC sample. I just don't like the guy's writing, as pathetic as that sounds. So, inspired and a bit motivated, I went back to look at the co-op version of the CW Chreia/Maxim. I bought it both because the price was right (it was a beta) and because that once a week set-up would be do-able for us. I *think* it might work. I had wanted to work on it myself first, and obviously I didn't get that done. Actually what happened was I printed it, but too small to read (two pages to a page, trying to save $$). So I'll reprint, work through it, and see what I can do with that. It's looking strikingly appropriate at the moment, and it's something I already have.

Edited September 4, 2011 by OhElizabeth

[PeterPan]

Lynn, I was thinking I should go look at my Jump In tm. I used just the writing prompts from it last year with her, and they were just great. It made me wonder if the rest of the book would also be a good fit.

 

See now I have a couple more leads to pursue. :)

[Tiramisu]

I'm happy to hear progress is being made.:)

 

Let me know what you think of Jump In. It seems so manageable that it may be possible to work through alongside a progym program, but I've only seen samples.

[Candid]

I've skimmed over this thread and it doesn't appear anyone suggested SWB's wonderful lectures "A Plan for Teaching Writing." I suggest you listen to the middle school lecture and work with your dd to set up at least some of what SWB suggests with emphasis on the outlining as it sounds like she is already about halfway to that.

 

Here's the page in the store with the lectures: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/store/audio-products/audio-lectures.html

 

And for an overview of the whole process read this:

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/store/media/downloads/pdfsamples/wwesample.pdf

[PeterPan]

I've skimmed over this thread and it doesn't appear anyone suggested SWB's wonderful lectures "A Plan for Teaching Writing." I suggest you listen to the middle school lecture and work with your dd to set up at least some of what SWB suggests with emphasis on the outlining as it sounds like she is already about halfway to that.

 

Here's the page in the store with the lectures: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/store/audio-products/audio-lectures.html

 

And for an overview of the whole process read this:

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/store/media/downloads/pdfsamples/wwesample.pdf

 

Ok, at your insistence I got out my notes again. See I went to all these talks the first year she did them. I thought they were 2010, but turns out they were 2009! At the time, I couldn't see where dd fit in there. I'm chuckling to reread the comment "Their tolerance for pointless tasks diminishes every day..." I think we're there. :D

 

Well I THINK a portion of SWB's comments on high school writing might apply to dd now. I'm going to have to think on it. It's a jolt, because I had moved that off to the far off Land of Someday in my mind. But you're right, that's where it's going and she DID explain it.

[Candid]

Ok, at your insistence I got out my notes again. See I went to all these talks the first year she did them. I thought they were 2010, but turns out they were 2009! At the time, I couldn't see where dd fit in there. I'm chuckling to reread the comment "Their tolerance for pointless tasks diminishes every day..." I think we're there. :D

 

Well I THINK a portion of SWB's comments on high school writing might apply to dd now. I'm going to have to think on it. It's a jolt, because I had moved that off to the far off Land of Someday in my mind. But you're right, that's where it's going and she DID explain it.

 

Yeah, and you have to modify. My cute little mule has about zero tolerance for any extra bit of pen to paper. So I mostly get the one level outlines at this point.

 

My older (freshmen, 15 year old) is slowly transitioning to carriage horse and can actually manage to produce some persuasive papers although not quite at the rate I'd like. One day I'll see you at the races, but not yet.

[PeterPan]

The problem with the outlining SWB specifies is it doesn't help dd do anything she wants to do.

[Candid]

Dd doesn't like to write. Or put more accurately, writing is not an easy process for her. She enjoys researching, enjoys making notes, is bonkers right now for comparing/contrasting/arguing, that sort of thing. She's utterly opinionated and halts in her tracks like a bad mexican mule if she feels it doesn't fit, is unclear, is beneath her (yes I find this frustrating), etc.

 

Well she comes back and me saying she needs more structure, more instruction, more clear expectations.

 

Today we discussed formal academic writing vs. the more creative and personal stuff, and she's now saying she wants the formal stuff, that she wants time to research things and then write about them. Huh, my kid???

 

 

What she needs is something meaty and worthwhile but with plenty of clear, concrete structure.

 

Okay, here's what you said that makes me think she needs to work on outlining. First, she would outline material she is interested in. You say she is already doing a huge part of that, "making notes." Now she needs to do so in a more organized way. One reason is that she can begin to see how other formal writers make connections in their facts.

 

However, I also think when you say "writing is not an easy task for her" that maybe she is not ready to write yet. OR she is unable to connect her thoughts to what a paper should be. So by first outling other's material then she can begin to outline her own material. I would also be showing her tools to do this compare/contrast thing: simple side by side charts, Venn diagrams, etc.

 

I'd let her listen to the middle school lecture and read the article on why writing programs fail. If she buys in then point out she's going to have to do some grunt tedious task work to get mastery of outlining down. Just like she had to do to learn to add or write neatly.

 

If she doesn't buy in then I'd do what you've already said and start contracting this out to someone else. Give her a choice and make sure she understands she has to finish whatever she chooses.

[PeterPan]

It's hard for her because she's dyslexic and has some expressive language and working memory issues as well as low muscle tone that makes writing uncomfortable. We worked with an OT to get the writing better, but she still shies away. We're doing some stuff to work on the rest, but it's slow going and just the reality of who she is. I think she may also be VSL. She doesn't fundamentally think in a logical, linear, outline-y way. I know she's ready to write both because of what we've done in the past and because she is ASKING to write these things. I'm just following her lead here. She *hates* narrative writings, retellings, etc. She wants to do more logic stage writing, and I can't blame her.

 

We've been talking about it on the SN board, because some kids are just full of contrasts. She needs to be taught explicitly, but she needs to see the whole, not taking it in as parts. She finds it hard, but she needs hard assignments.

 

I'll think about the outlining. Where I *think* I'd like to go with it is having her outline mature essays. Also we could transition to Cornell notes, which I had forgotten about. If she did that with her VP online lectures, that might be interesting.

[PenKase]

For writing this year with my 6 th grader, I've decided to go with Bravewriter/Write Source Combination. Although I love SWB's lectures and will continue with the suggestions for narrations and beginning literature analysis, I just don't get the warm and fuzzy's from WWS; I don't doubt it's effectiveness, but I fear that using it will feel like pulling teeth around here. I appreciate Bravewriter's emphasis on building and nurturing a writing lifestyle. Using Write Source along with it will provide more of the hand holding that I find somewhat lacking in Braveriter. I find the compliment each other very well. Have you looked into Bravewriter or The Write Source?

[onaclairadeluna]

It's hard for her because she's dyslexic and has some expressive language and working memory issues as well as low muscle tone that makes writing uncomfortable. We worked with an OT to get the writing better, but she still shies away. We're doing some stuff to work on the rest, but it's slow going and just the reality of who she is. I think she may also be VSL. She doesn't fundamentally think in a logical, linear, outline-y way. I know she's ready to write both because of what we've done in the past and because she is ASKING to write these things. I'm just following her lead here. She *hates* narrative writings, retellings, etc. She wants to do more logic stage writing, and I can't blame her.

 

 

When DS was young I'd ask him about what he was reading and he'd get MAD at me. "Read it yourself" he was very little and clearly having problems so this didn't make me mad, I just tried to come up with other ways of getting him to talk to me about things. He loved explaining rules for Magic. What I am discovering is that verbal narrations are harder than written narrations for him. He also had severe writing problems but this seems to be getting better. Somehow writing helps his brain slow down enough to get ideas out. The other reason I think written narrations are easier is when he is writing he can take a few minutes to think of a word without it hampering the flow of his narration. But he has to check his writing every time by reading it back out loud otherwise he might leave out VERY important words (or whole phrases).

 

Very cool that she is asking for more writing! Has she started the class yet? I hope you let us know how it goes. FWIW outlines don't really help DS either. I just started up with them again because I suspect it might be helpful in writing notes for a class. But for writing an essay, outlining is an extra step and extra work. I think it has something to do with verbal vs. conceptual thinking. He has things outlined conceptually in his head and verbalizing the outline is an extra step.

[PeterPan]

Well we'll try this a 3rd time! My computer was acting funny, and I lost the other two replies.

 

PenKase--I've loosed at BW but haven't seen WriteSource. I'll check it out.

 

Onacl--As usual you've set me to thinking with a lot of things! I'm suddenly realizing WHY a recent writing/technology assignment I gave her worked well. The task was to make a sheet, complete with pictures for the steps, etc., explaining how to can tomatoes. And yes, it did exactly what you're saying, slowing her down, causing her to think in a more linear fashion (which is of course how much of the world expects to see information, lol). I think that's something we could harness and do a bit more of, with more tasks to draw that out and develop it. Very interesting. So then, for the record, you would or would not encourage the co-op writing class for this dc? I'm just so undecided. I think it would be fine, but I want to do it myself. That's the long and short of it. I don't like the idea of going an hour earlier, and I don't like the idea of losing control or losing a semester if it's not right. But IF it could be a good fit (which I honestly can't gauge), it's a great opportunity to get something done with less hassle to me. I think in my mind I have this slight resistance to the idea that someone would come in and say such and such (formulaic, whatever) type of writing is ENOUGH. I've never tried to lower my standards with her. I've always tried to keep her moving forward with the thought that she will be able to communicate WELL if we just work at it enough. And I'm afraid that divergent expectations could undermine that, sort of like when she finally figured out no one else at church homeschools during the summer. ;)

[Wee Pip]

OhE, I'm just thinking aloud here...

My dh just recently wrote and published a sci-fi novel on Amazon Kindle. He's in the middle of writing his 2nd, and I'm his editor:) This is making us talk a lot about the writing process, and how we arrive at communicating certain thoughts. We are both middle brained people, but certain aspects of our thinking tends to fall in different camps, lol! He writes with more left-brained thinking strategies. Before he writes a chapter, he makes a list of all the things he'll include in that chapter. He generally thinks in a linear, organized fashion. He's brilliant and can also think in a crazy, creative right-brained way, but he tends to attack things in a very linear, strategic left-brained way. Whereas, when I write, I type a lot of things in a big heaping pile on the page, and then hope I figure out what I'm trying to say at the end of it. Or, I leave it to my audience to find meaning in what I've said. Dh detests my writing. I've always aspired to be a writer since I was a little girl - so I took this very personally at first. It wasn't until I read SWB's intro to WWE (for the 50th time) that I figured out WHY I'm a bad writer:) My eyes have been opened! Simply put: my writing is unclear. I realize my biggest problem is trying to figure out what I'm saying. Secondly, I think rather visually, so I have some of those VSL struggles in putting things on a page (how do I WRITE those images that I'm seeing in my brain?) But I think this visual problem is secondary to the first issue: how do I figure out what I'm trying to say, and then present that clearly to other people? Often, I don't arrive at that until after I've vomitted words on the page. I use writing as my method of discovery, and then edit later. If I edit, then maybe I can make that heaping mess into something worthwhile. Anyhow, I mention this because I wonder if your dd has the same thing going on in her head. Fortunately for me, I love writing, so writing things 20 times doesn't bother me. But it would be nice to arrive at a clear, concise idea, and set that to paper the first time! I think you may be on to something, though, with teaching writing by linear thinking.