An ethical question about reusing a curriculum that's not supposed to be...

[melmichigan]

Thank you for opening my eyes. We were considering Verticy, but I won't purchase a program that prohibits the use with my own children.

[Angel in FL]

I would reuse for my own child if I didn't want the support & online services if I couldn't rebuy and really wanted to use them.

 

I am using Calvert 1 with my daughter and I do enjoy the Brain Pop and other things so if you want full use and can afford it repurchase. If you can't, use it for your next child. I won't be destroying our TM but will keep it as our record of school for the year.

[SorrelZG]

Ah... well that makes sense, then! :D

 

My original post was about CD- and DVD-ROMS. :D

 

 

Oh. :lol:

 

 

I should probably avoid the forums until my minimum quota of coffee intake has been met.

[Carrie75]

Destroy rather than re-use? That's beyond wasteful, and I'm not comfortable with this. I wouldn't never consider such a curriculum.

 

Seriously, I agree with this. I would not use a curriculum that I couldn't reuse for another child in our family.

[Jim]

I agree that there are many wonderful choices out there. I do think however that many curricula have some form of copyright protection with some more liberal than others. Calvert again does off services beyond the books and does offer financial aid:) Of course, it will not be everyone's cup of tea;)

 

 

Most allow you to use the purchased material within your own family, even to the extent that you can copy pages. In regard to reselling material even this forum supports the effort. IEW supports a buy/sell forum and accepts returns for 100% refund (usually including shipping) regardless of how long you've had it and how many times you've used it.

 

IEW relies on the honesty of their customers to not return material they find helpful. I find their approach refreshing. I'm sure it costs them some money but I, for one, support them partly due to their support and policies. It's called customer service, something that seems to have been forgotten.

 

I read a thread the other day that led me to blog written by a new HS mom in the Atlanta area. She had a post about her experiences at a curr. fair. She commented on 1) how well everyone was behaved and 2) how so much material was just laying around with so little supervision. She marveled that it wasn't just walking away.

 

IEW's policies and her comments speak to the type of people that have taken on this responsibility. For the most part they are honest folks trying to do what they believe is best. I, we, should support those that see it the same way. Support the effort by offering quality material at reasonable prices (that provides a profit) and I will support you in return.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

Jim

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Most allow you to use the purchased material within your own family, even to the extent that you can copy pages. In regard to reselling material even this forum supports the effort. IEW supports a buy/sell forum and accepts returns for 100% refund (usually including shipping) regardless of how long you've had it and how many times you've used it.

 

IEW relies on the honesty of their customers to not return material they find helpful. I find their approach refreshing. I'm sure it costs them some money but I, for one, support them partly due to their support and policies. It's called customer service, something that seems to have been forgotten.

 

I read a thread the other day that led me to blog written by a new HS mom in the Atlanta area. She had a post about her experiences at a curr. fair. She commented on 1) how well everyone was behaved and 2) how so much material was just laying around with so little supervision. She marveled that it wasn't just walking away.

 

IEW's policies and her comments speak to the type of people that have taken on this responsibility. For the most part they are honest folks trying to do what they believe is best. I, we, should support those that see it the same way. Support the effort by offering quality material at reasonable prices (that provides a profit) and I will support you in return.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

Jim

 

I agree that their policy is not going to be agreeable to everyone:) Calvert does say clearly on their web site that they are not booksellers. They are offering a service that includes more than the books with educational counselors, etc. They also offer financial aid. So perhaps that is the difference.

Edited August 10, 2011 by priscilla

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Thank you for opening my eyes. We were considering Verticy, but I won't purchase a program that prohibits the use with my own children.

 

Verticy may have a different policy. Plus they do offer financial aid. Of course, there are tons of different options for you as well:)

[ColoNative]

 

IEW relies on the honesty of their customers to not return material they find helpful. I find their approach refreshing. I'm sure it costs them some money but I, for one, support them partly due to their support and policies. It's called customer service, something that seems to have been forgotten.

 

Jim

 

 

I agree with this. I appreciate those companies who have generous customer service, and make sure I support these companies - not just always buying it used!

[...................]

Just so you know, that new refund policy is ONLY for those who have never, ever used Calvert before.

 

So that's how I got burned this year. I wasn't sure about the 2nd grade, as I have tried and disliked it before. But looking at the 38 day refund policy, I thought I had nothing to lose.

 

We LOVE the 4th grade, but the 2nd grade was a total failure. When I called to ask about the 38 day refund policy, they said that since I have used Calvert before, I do not qualify.

 

This was very unfortunate. So they made a special case of me, seeing as I have used several years and am a long term customer. They will refund me the course, minus the re-stocking fee, minus their original shipping costs, and minus the books we have used/written in.

 

So I will get back about 350.00.

 

I still love Calvert... because my son is getting an AWESOME 4th grade education and because we love the real, down to earth, friendly, and very creative education counsellors, and my daughter is thriving with the math. We loved pre_K and K too.

 

But...ya know...their refund policy isn't that great, really. :glare:

 

Edited to Add: Calvert 4th is FANTASTIC, if that is what you are going to start with you can be very encouraged.

Edited August 10, 2011 by Calming Tea

[Jim]

I agree that their policy is not going to be agreeable to everyone:) Calvert odes say clearly on their web site that they are not booksellers. They are offering a service that includes more than the books with educational counselors, etc. So perhaps that is the difference.

 

 

As long as it's clear. It appears it might not be and the policy seems odd. I can understand not extending support to those that buy used material, there is no relationship between the seller and the "new" owner. I might even go along with withdrawing support for subsequent children within the same family, maybe, but to say you can't use the material again just strike me wrong.

 

Because of that I would not consider using it, even if it is top notch.

 

It's the fact that the thread is hitting page six and is concentrated on legalize that puts me over the top. Really, I'm concerned about the education of my child and not the law.

 

I say that having dropped of my Declaration of Intent to Homeschool to the local authorities less than an hour ago. :tongue_smilie:

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Just so you know, that new refund policy is ONLY for those who have never, ever used Calvert before.

 

So that's how I got burned this year. I wasn't sure about the 2nd grade, as I have tried and disliked it before. But looking at the 38 day refund policy, I thought I had nothing to lose.

 

We LOVE the 4th grade, but the 2nd grade was a total failure. When I called to ask about the 38 day refund policy, they said that since I have used Calvert before, I do not qualify.

 

This was very unfortunate. So they made a special case of me, seeing as I have used several years and am a long term customer. They will refund me the course, minus the re-stocking fee, minus their original shipping costs, and minus the books we have used/written in.

 

So I will get back about 350.00.

 

I still love Calvert... because my son is getting an AWESOME 4th grade education and because we love the real, down to earth, friendly, and very creative education counsellors, and my daughter is thriving with the math. We loved pre_K and K too.

 

But...ya know...their refund policy isn't that great, really. :glare:

 

I will be sure to ask as well:) I got the impression that they also have a 60 day review the materials without using them (writing in them) return policy for any parents, new or returning. I could be wrong but that is how it appears to me:).

 

I am only choosing Calvert since it offers the Advisory Teaching Service to give my ds and myself outside accountability. I also think their curricula looks great but also know that there are tons of great options which we also hope to play with at times;)

[swimmermom3]

I think the problem is that Calvert is not selling licenses. They make no mention of that. They mention "leasing" but mentioning that does not give it any legal standing. In fact, what they seem to use as support is copyright and that's a completely different thing:

 

 

 

And the things they claim you cannot do extend far beyond the copyright they actually hold. It attempts to exclude the purchaser's right to fair use. Whether buying the product or even agreeing to those terms actually means you are obligated to abide by terms that have you giving up your own rights is questionable.

 

What I think is going on is that they're attempting to reap the benefits of licencing rights without actually citing them. In doing that they're trying to make copyright into something that it isn't. I don't know if they're lazy or ignorant or both but I find it ridiculous.

 

I wouldn't hesitate to use their lesson manuals again. I'd respect their copyright but I'd also respect my property and fair use rights. If they want to enforce licencing rights then they should be hiring a decent lawyer in the field and drawing up proper agreements based on the law.

 

Hey Dawn, that little quote from Calvert that you had in here is something we discussed a couple of years ago. I could have sworn that that disclaimer doesn't show up until after you purchase. Can anyone tell me if I am incorrect in remembering it that way. Oh, and I may have been enrolled but there were zero services we could have received. I am not even sure how we would have received credit since there was no interaction with Calvert. Dawn is correct as well with regards to the fact that no arrangements are made for the return of the "leased" materials.

[swimmermom3]

As long as it's clear. It appears it might not be and the policy seems odd. I can understand not extending support to those that buy used material, there is no relationship between the seller and the "new" owner. I might even go along with withdrawing support for subsequent children within the same family, maybe, but to say you can't use the material again just strike me wrong.

 

Because of that I would not consider using it, even if it is top notch.

 

It's the fact that the thread is hitting page six and is concentrated on legalize that puts me over the top. Really, I'm concerned about the education of my child and not the law.

 

I say that having dropped of my Declaration of Intent to Homeschool to the local authorities less than an hour ago. :tongue_smilie:

 

Congratulations! That is a rather earth-shattering event.:D I remember getting into the car and laying me head on the steering column and thinking, "What have I done?"

 

That was five years ago. It is all good. Have a wonderful school year.

[PeacefulChaos]

If you are reusing within your own family I don't see a problem. I mean honestly how can they expect you not to use it within your family. Don't lose sleep over it at all.

 

:iagree:

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Hey Dawn, that little quote from Calvert that you had in here is something we discussed a couple of years ago. I could have sworn that that disclaimer doesn't show up until after you purchase. Can anyone tell me if I am incorrect in remembering it that way. Oh, and I may have been enrolled but there were zero services we could have received. I am not even sure how we would have received credit since there was no interaction with Calvert. Dawn is correct as well with regards to the fact that no arrangements are made for the return of the "leased" materials.

 

The info regarding re-use is on their FAQ page as well as the info regarding the Advisory Teaching Service where there is some interaction and feedback from a teacher in addition to the educational counselors if you need them. The level of interaction does not include live classes via web like we had when we were in a K12 charter school though. The ATS staff correct every 20th lesson assessments/compositions and provide feedback. They are provide a transcript upon request from the ATS service. Also, for 6-8th grades they have the Calvert Virtual Academy as an option as well.

 

Calvert only says not to re-use or sell the lesson manuals whereas you can re-use/sell the books.

Edited August 10, 2011 by priscilla

[Jim]

Congratulations! That is a rather earth-shattering event.:D I remember getting into the car and laying me head on the steering column and thinking, "What have I done?"

 

That was five years ago. It is all good. Have a wonderful school year.

 

 

This is our third year. But I remember the first year, when every morning I would awake to the sound of the school bus going by. It reminded me of the gravity of what I had done. My wife just commented yesterday that the bus hasn't woke her up this year. Me either! :001_smile:

 

We started Monday. He was asking about starting. I was ready, and excited to go. We went.

 

What's throwing me off is waking up and he's already completed his spelling, math, and reviewed his Fix-It sentence.

 

It reminds me of the Family Man movie except in my house there is a strange boy pretending to be my son. Who is this strange kid and what happened to my son? Don't tell me turning 10 flipped a switch. I'll give him two more days to revert to his old self, or....well, I don't know what I'll do. Smile?

 

 

Jim

[Corraleno]

The fact that most book publishers still allow their books to be transferred is not protected under law, but simply tradition that hasn't fallen by the wayside yet

Actually the right to resell books is protected by law; it's called the "first sale doctrine." Once a publisher has sold a book, their right to determine what happens to that book is strictly limited to what is protected by copyright law (i.e., that the owner of the book may not make additional copies). The law states:

the owner of a particular copy or phonorecord lawfully made under this title, or any person authorized by such owner, is entitled, without the authority of the copyright owner, to sell or otherwise dispose of the possession of that copy or phonorecord.

 

Whether the first sale doctrine applies to software and other materials which claim to be "leased" is a matter of legal debate. In some cases courts have ruled that if a software manufacturer does not require return of the software or have an expiration date for the lease, then in fact it is a sale and the shrinkwrap or clickwrap "licensing agreement" is invalid. In other cases the courts have ruled that the software licensing agreement was valid.

 

To the OP: reusing the manual you have does not in any way infringe copyright law. The issue would be whether it would be a breach of your contract with Calvert, but it is unclear whether Calvert's claim to be "leasing" the manual rather than selling would hold up in court. Since it is a book, which you paid for, and they don't require that it be returned, one could make the argument that this was in fact a sale and that their use of the term "lease" was simply an attempt to deprive you of your rights under the first sale doctrine. In that case you would even be within your rights to sell it; I personally don't see any issue at all with reusing it at home for your own family. Even software licenses do not prevent additional family members from using a single piece of software.

 

Jackie

[...................]

Yes, you do get to preview the materials for 60 days for a full refund if you don't make any marks, defacing, bending, etc. :o) They still charge a restocking fee on that and charge you the shipping, IIRC, but I could be wrong.

[Guest]

To this day, I am upset about how I had to throw away the TM's from the years we used Calvert. I wanted to reuse Calvert K for my youngest, but could not because I no longer have the TM's! I would have to re-purchase it, and it's expensive. It is a huge reason why I will not use Calvert again. We stopped because the 1st/2nd grades were kinda boring (we did like K), but I would have liked to use them, again, around fourth or so. However, I will not use them again because of the reuse policy within a family. Honestly, they would have made much more money off of us had they just allowed the TM's to be reused, as I would have purchased for my oldest ds every year! We probably would have stuck with them (even through high school) if they had it ready by the time we got to it.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Actually the right to resell books is protected by law; it's called the "first sale doctrine." Once a publisher has sold a book, their right to determine what happens to that book is strictly limited to what is protected by copyright law (i.e., that the owner of the book may not make additional copies). The law states:

 

 

Whether the first sale doctrine applies to software and other materials which claim to be "leased" is a matter of legal debate. In some cases courts have ruled that if a software manufacturer does not require return of the software or have an expiration date for the lease, then in fact it is a sale and the shrinkwrap or clickwrap "licensing agreement" is invalid. In other cases the courts have ruled that the software licensing agreement was valid.

 

To the OP: reusing the manual you have does not in any way infringe copyright law. The issue would be whether it would be a breach of your contract with Calvert, but it is unclear whether Calvert's claim to be "leasing" the manual rather than selling would hold up in court. Since it is a book, which you paid for, and they don't require that it be returned, one could make the argument that this was in fact a sale and that their use of the term "lease" was simply an attempt to deprive you of your rights under the first sale doctrine. In that case you would even be within your rights to sell it; I personally don't see any issue at all with reusing it at home for your own family. Even software licenses do not prevent additional family members from using a single piece of software.

 

Jackie

 

Calvert does state on their web site that they are not a bookseller so that may be the difference. I believe they are selling their services as a non-profit. Then again, I am not a lawyer;)

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

To this day, I am upset about how I had to throw away the TM's from the years we used Calvert. I wanted to reuse Calvert K for my youngest, but could not because I no longer have the TM's! I would have to re-purchase it, and it's expensive. It is a huge reason why I will not use Calvert again. We stopped because the 1st/2nd grades were kinda boring (we did like K), but I would have liked to use them, again, around fourth or so. However, I will not use them again because of the reuse policy within a family. Honestly, they would have made much more money off of us had they just allowed the TM's to be reused, as I would have purchased for my oldest ds every year! We probably would have stuck with them (even through high school) if they had it ready by the time we got to it.

 

Their web site does not reference throwing away the lesson manuals. It says do not copy, re-use, sell, distribute their lesson plans:) Perhaps it used to say this??? They are a non-profit as well so I don't think money is the over-riding factor here but I could be wrong.

 

I can understand not using them due to the cost which is where I hesitate with my ds especially when there are tons of wonderful curricula out there for much less:D I am only interested due to the ATS service and I still have to mull it over for another week as to whether I want to spend that much:D

[Guest]

Their web site does not reference throwing away the lesson manuals. It says do not copy, re-use, sell, distribute their lesson plans:) Perhaps it used to say this??? They are a non-profit as well so I don't think money is the over-riding factor here but I could be wrong.

 

I can understand not using them due to the cost which is where I hesitate with my ds especially when there are tons of wonderful curricula out there for much less:D I am only interested due to the ATS service and I still have to mull it over for another week as to whether I want to spend that much:D

 

Mine said I had to destroy them after use. :confused:

 

Anyway, if you are not allowed to re-use them, it's the same difference. I would have to re-purchase to use with my younger children. :glare:

 

I now use materials that can be re-used with younger siblings and are more affordable. :)

[missmoe]

What about schools that use Calvert materials? I know there are several charter schools in CA that utilize Calvert. Do they reuse the materials or destroy it? I know that at least one of them reuse it.

[Corraleno]

Calvert does state on their web site that they are not a bookseller so that may be the difference. I believe they are selling their services as a non-profit. Then again, I am not a lawyer;)

Whether they self-identify as a "bookseller" or as an educational company that also happens to sell books is legally irrelevant, as is their nonprofit status. Copyright law does not give the copyright owner the right to tell purchasers what they can or can't do with the materials once the materials have been sold, other than preventing them from making additional copies.

 

The issue is whether the TMs were truly "leased" or whether they were in fact sold (since they do not need to be returned). This is currently a gray area, legally, and there have been court rulings suggesting that "lease agreements" like Calvert's are invalid and that the materials are in fact being sold (in which case the purchaser can do whatever he or she likes with them).

 

Jackie

[swimmermom3]

The info regarding re-use is on their FAQ page as well as the info regarding the Advisory Teaching Service where there is some interaction and feedback from a teacher in addition to the educational counselors if you need them. The level of interaction does not include live classes via web like we had when we were in a K12 charter school though. The ATS staff correct every 20th lesson assessments/compositions and provide feedback. They are provide a transcript upon request from the ATS service. Also, for 6-8th grades they have the Calvert Virtual Academy as an option as well.

 

Calvert only says not to re-use or sell the lesson manuals whereas you can re-use/sell the books.

 

Priscilla, if I go in to order an enrichment, there is nothing that shows up with regards to the "lease." I took it all the way to the point of putting my credit card info in and there was no warning. Someone actually called me and asked for my student's name the following day even though they would not be having any contact with him. I can easily see a veteran homeschooler going in and placing an order the same way I did. I didn't need to check a FAQ to know that I wanted their Art series (Hillyer). I have bought a ton of curriculum and have never seen it handled the way Calvert handles it. WinterPromise requests that you not resell their TMs and I can respect that. Calvert's handling of the situation is really borderline.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Priscilla, if I go in to order an enrichment, there is nothing that shows up with regards to the "lease." I took it all the way to the point of putting my credit card info in and there was no warning. Someone actually called me and asked for my student's name the following day even though they would not be having any contact with him. I can easily see a veteran homeschooler going in and placing an order the same way I did. I didn't need to check a FAQ to know that I wanted their Art series (Hillyer). I have bought a ton of curriculum and have never seen it handled the way Calvert handles it. WinterPromise requests that you not resell their TMs and I can respect that. Calvert's handling of the situation is really borderline.

 

I can see your point:) I guess from my point of view it is not that important in my particular situation since I only have one kid:). I am still undecided about Calvert but I am leaning heavily towards it since to me it is an easy way to keep on track;)

[radiobrain]

I can see your point:) I guess from my point of view it is not that important in my particular situation since I only have one kid:). I am still undecided about Calvert but I am leaning heavily towards it since to me it is an easy way to keep on track;)

 

There are easier ways to "keep on track" than use a company that is so, um, odd about things. :D

 

Seriously, there are at least 50 companies that will have a similar product (usually superior) to Calvert. JMHO.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

There are easier ways to "keep on track" than use a company that is so, um, odd about things. :D

 

Seriously, there are at least 50 companies that will have a similar product (usually superior) to Calvert. JMHO.

 

This is true too:) I love Peace Hill Press and all of their products, Kolbe Academy, Sonlight, Singapore, K12, etc. This makes it a really tough decision for me;) It really is the ATS that may be Calvert's selling point for our particular situation coupled with its decent, thorough curricula:001_smile: I am hoping to supplement Calvert heavily and use Calvert for benchmarks so to speak which may or may not be a good idea:)

[GoVanGogh]

 

Priscilla, if I go in to order an enrichment, there is nothing that shows up with regards to the "lease." I took it all the way to the point of putting my credit card info in and there was no warning. Someone actually called me and asked for my student's name the following day even though they would not be having any contact with him. I can easily see a veteran homeschooler going in and placing an order the same way I did. I didn't need to check a FAQ to know that I wanted their Art series (Hillyer). I have bought a ton of curriculum and have never seen it handled the way Calvert handles it. WinterPromise requests that you not resell their TMs and I can respect that. Calvert's handling of the situation is really borderline.

This post is very timely for me, as I just purchased the art series by Hillyer. I had no clue until it arrived and I opened the TM that I had actually "leased" the material. :001_huh: I saw nothing on their website when placing my order, nor was I contacted by the company. To me that is very unethical. I do love the art series so don't regret my purchase, but I certainly won't be purchasing from them again.

[snowbeltmom]

...Can you imagine buying a shirt that had a "user policy" that said you couldn't pass it on to someone else?...

:iagree:

 

Perhaps the company had a couple of goblins from Harry Potter write its policies?

[Princess Peach]

I couldn't care less what their 'policy' says. As far as I'm concerned, once I buy the book, I own it, and I'll do what I want with it. That's so low on my radar when it comes to "morality issues" that there's just no way I'd lose sleep over that. I'd worry more about the ridiculous waste of paper/resources they are apparently expecting than whether I could help them make extra money at the expense of such wastefulness. Not that I use Calvert or ever would to begin with. :D

 

:iagree: And I did buy a used WP guide and felt fine about it. I couldn't resell it though because I spilled coffee on it, lol.

[Michele B]

I actually think that policy would keep me from using that material though in the first place to be honest. If I can not reuse it that would not work for our family and our budget!

 

:iagree: Absolutely!

[5forMe]

Coming in late on this but I thought they had a "reuse" program for siblings. We used Calvert for the 7th grade. I thought it was a wonderful curriculum.

 

I wouldn't buy it used from someone else or sell what I used, however I would reuse it for a sibling without feeling bad about it.

[Corraleno]

This post is very timely for me, as I just purchased the art series by Hillyer. I had no clue until it arrived and I opened the TM that I had actually "leased" the material. :001_huh: I saw nothing on their website when placing my order, nor was I contacted by the company. To me that is very unethical. I do love the art series so don't regret my purchase, but I certainly won't be purchasing from them again.

 

Unless you were informed of that restriction and agreed to it before purchase, there is no contract to "lease" the item; they can't sell you something and then tell you afterwards that you don't actually own it, and they can't make you abide by a contract you never signed.

 

And honestly, I don't believe that even those people who do see the "lease" terms up front and agree to them before purchase are necessarily bound by them, because I'm not sure Calvert's claims that their TMs are leased rather than sold would stand up in court: there is a single payment for the full value of the item, there is no specified time limit, and there is no obligation to return the materials when you finish with them. That sounds like a sale, not a lease. A true lease is generally for a specified period of time, often with multiple payments, the payment(s) do not equal the full value of the item (i.e. the item has residual value beyond the payments, such as when you lease a car or a rent an apartment), and the property must be returned when the lease expires. None of those apply to Calvert's TMs.

 

Jackie

[5forMe]

After reading this thread, I looked at my Calvert catalog and they do have a 60 return policy for those who aren't "new" to the program and a "38 lesson" trial for those who are "new" to the program. I do think that these things are completely different and understand why there is a difference.

 

If you have used Calvert before you know how the program is set up. So if you order two grade levels for instance and love one of the grade levels, but decide that the other grade level isn't working for your kid, as long as it has been less then 60 days, you can return it.

 

The 38 lesson trial for newbies makes sense to me, because sometimes it takes that long to decide if something works for you or not. Of course they don't want people taking advantage of them so they restrict it to new members only.

 

As far as the "leased" verses "purchased" argument....I bought the 7th grade curriculum two years ago. I still have it all in my possession, they didn't require that I "turn it in". If they had, I wouldn't have purchased it from them or if they told me after I purchased it, I would've sent it back and said "no thank you".

 

I think these terms, really are to try to prevent people from reselling the curriculum, however, my friend just purchased the entire sixth grade curriculum from ebay or craigs list....she doesn't have the same ethics as I but my point is that obviously there is nothing "legally binding" and stopping people from reselling or buying the used curriculum.

 

I wouldn't want to buy this curriculum used because to me some of the best parts of the program are the interactive computer games, online spelling program, etc. All of the things that you have to be "enrolled" to receive.

[LittleIzumi]

I would check and see if that's legally binding. I don't think that they can legally obligate you to not reuse it. Perhaps not copy it :) but just not "reuse" it? I think that's just a desire.... Not a right that they have. Just a thought...

 

Exactly. There is no legal basis for it. They ask you to agree to it when you buy it from them, but there is no law regarding it. In fact, the law is in the opposite direction!

 

I am a painfully scrupulous person but that is ridiculous. Can you imagine buying a shirt that had a "user policy" that said you couldn't pass it on to someone else?

 

I understand the legal importance of protecting information which can be freely distributed to the detriment of its authors, but I also think there are fair use laws. I'm pretty sure legally, when you purchase any publication, that COPY becomes yours to do with as you wish - to reuse, sell, or give away - just like a shirt. The law prevents you from distributing copies or using copies for yourself and then giving away the originals.

 

Same with software.. if you remove it from your own computer, the physical disks and manuals are YOURS to give, sell, or re-use as you wish, but you can't copy the disks, or keep an installed version on your computer and then give away the disks, etc.

 

The fact that Calvert would even attempt such a policy makes me question the integrity of the company. :confused: I understand they are in the industry to make a profit, but anyone who produces anything should understand there is a market for used product.

 

If Calvert is not giving you a straight answer I am guessing they know this policy is published but not legally binding? Wow.

 

:iagree::iagree:

 

I'm not sure it is legal. But the "leasing" wording may change that. I do know that WP's policy of not reselling their materials is not legal. Once one buys a product it is theirs to use, sell, loan, or burn if they so choose.

 

:iagree: Exactly.

 

Can you call them and get permission for use for other kids within your family?

 

I am speaking JUST for myself here, but whether man knows if I do it or not, God still does and I will be held accountable. I wouldn't if you can not get permission from them. I would try to get permission though for within your own family.

 

WP is the only company that I have purchased used curricula with this sort of policy, and as the pp stated, their policy is absolutely illegal. They have no right to ask it and no legal basis for it whatsoever. If I bought it new from them, I feel that I would in some way be indicating to them that I agree with/will follow their illegal demands. I buy used so there is not even that thin claim. I feel absolutely no pr!ck to my conscience for not following an illegal policy for a company I never entered into a transaction with. I purchased something used with NO agreement, implicit or explicit, with no relationship to the company itself whatsoever. I would never, of course, copy it or anything that I knew was actually legally/morally wrong.

 

Actually the right to resell books is protected by law; it's called the "first sale doctrine." Once a publisher has sold a book, their right to determine what happens to that book is strictly limited to what is protected by copyright law (i.e., that the owner of the book may not make additional copies). The law states:

 

 

Whether the first sale doctrine applies to software and other materials which claim to be "leased" is a matter of legal debate. In some cases courts have ruled that if a software manufacturer does not require return of the software or have an expiration date for the lease, then in fact it is a sale and the shrinkwrap or clickwrap "licensing agreement" is invalid. In other cases the courts have ruled that the software licensing agreement was valid.

 

To the OP: reusing the manual you have does not in any way infringe copyright law. The issue would be whether it would be a breach of your contract with Calvert, but it is unclear whether Calvert's claim to be "leasing" the manual rather than selling would hold up in court. Since it is a book, which you paid for, and they don't require that it be returned, one could make the argument that this was in fact a sale and that their use of the term "lease" was simply an attempt to deprive you of your rights under the first sale doctrine. In that case you would even be within your rights to sell it; I personally don't see any issue at all with reusing it at home for your own family. Even software licenses do not prevent additional family members from using a single piece of software.

 

Jackie

 

:iagree: Hence why I won't buy from a company directly with this kind of policy--while I have no legal obligation to follow it, if I purchased from them I feel I would be agreeing to it anyway. Therefore I won't buy directly from any of these companies so I am not implying or agreeing in any way or giving them any money.

Edited August 11, 2011 by LittleIzumi

[Sahamamama]

Calvert has the policy that the lesson manual is to be used by only one student.

 

I think that how we understand this policy depends on how we view the "product" from the company. Are they selling a teacher's manual or an academic course? A tangible product or a teacher-in-a-box? Here are some examples from the rest of life:

 

 

• I buy a car, put 300,000 miles on it :D, keep it in good shape. Am I allowed to pass it on to my nephew when he starts driving next week? [And would he even want such a gift?] ;) He is not a member of my immediate family, but because the item in question is transferable, I can transfer it, within or without, for money or free of charge.

• I buy a shirt for our oldest child, who wears it for a year (not continuously). ;) Am I allowed to pass this shirt on to any other children? Inside my family? Outside my family? The kids at church are not members of the immediate family, but because the shirt is transferable, I can transfer it.

• I send Daughter A to summer music day camp, paying full tuition. The following summer, Daughters B & C (twins) want to go to camp, too. Do I send them on the same tuition, or do I have to pay it again, this time twice? Obviously, I have to pay again, because last summer's tuition for Daughter A was never contracted to cover any other student's tuition.

• Let's say I go back to college (not going to happen IRL). I pay for my books (tangible), my fees (for services), and my tuition (for services). Then my husband decides that he wants to go to college. If he takes the same courses, with the same textbooks, in the same editions, he could probably use my books -- with no more money out the door. But, without paying tuition again, could he "utilize" my professor? Get a transcript?

 

Now, having said all that, I don't understand how Calvert (or another curriculum company) that sells a tangible product, such as a teacher's manual/instructor guide, considers that product non-transferable. IMO, they are selling a book, a book that I put to use to help me teach -- but I do the actual teaching, so it's still just a book, KWIM? Sort of like a cookbook, but I do the actual cooking. :D

 

I would understand non-transferability if they (Calvert) were doing the actual teaching, or providing a teacher-consultation service, or tracking the student's work and providing a transcript, or teaching the entire course through DVD (like BJU or IEW). But a teacher's manual alone is not, IMO, a service product, for which you pay each time you utilize the service -- like how we pay for each separate haircut, because someone is actually providing a new service each time.

 

What "new service" is provided when you reuse a teacher manual you've already paid for? It is a book, plain and simple. It is (or ought to be) something you buy, use, keep, or pass on (give or sell), as you see fit. Like a shirt.

 

Then again, if you buy Calvert knowing their policy in advance, then you have agreed to their terms and are bound by them. HTH.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

[*]I send Daughter A to summer music day camp, paying full tuition. The following summer, Daughters B & C (twins) want to go to camp, too. Do I send them on the same tuition, or do I have to pay it again, this time twice? Obviously, I have to pay again, because last summer's tuition for Daughter A was never contracted to cover any other student's tuition.

[*]Let's say I go back to college (not going to happen IRL). I pay for my books (tangible), my fees (for services), and my tuition (for services). Then my husband decides that he wants to go to college. If he takes the same courses, with the same textbooks, in the same editions, he could probably use my books -- with no more money out the door. But, without paying tuition again, could he "utilize" my professor? Get a transcript?

 

 

Now, having said all that, I don't understand how Calvert (or another curriculum company) that sells a tangible product, such as a teacher's manual/instructor guide, considers that product non-transferable. IMO, they are selling a book, a book that I put to use to help me teach -- but I do the actual teaching, so it's still just a book, KWIM? Sort of like a cookbook, but I do the actual cooking. :D

 

I would understand non-transferability if they (Calvert) were doing the actual teaching, or providing a teacher-consultation service, or tracking the student's work and providing a transcript, or teaching the entire course through DVD (like BJU or IEW). But a teacher's manual alone is not, IMO, a service product, for which you pay each time you utilize the service -- like how we pay for each separate haircut, because someone is actually providing a new service each time.

 

What "new service" is provided when you reuse a teacher manual you've already paid for? It is a book, plain and simple. It is (or ought to be) something you buy, use, keep, or pass on (give or sell), as you see fit. Like a shirt.

 

Then again, if you buy Calvert knowing their policy in advance, then you have agreed to their terms and are bound by them. HTH.

 

Calvert does say they are not book sellers. They do offer educational counselors, Discovery Education, Brain Pop, online Encyclopedia, etc. They offer a service. They are selling a course IMHO. Their ATS service and Virtual Academy do have transcripts. The analogy of attending classes at a school is spot on since I think this how Calvert see it:)

 

It is a personal choice whether one chooses to use their services. I have seen other curricula sites where one is not supposed to sell the teacher manuals such as K12, Kolbe Academy, etc. IMHO Calvert is being unnecessarily slammed in a sense for their policy because there are plenty of other choices out there if one does not like Calvert's policies:) I do hope that they reconsider their policies but OTOH I can see where as a non-profit that offers financial aid that they see their policies as a way to be able to continue their services.

 

My 2 cents:)

Edited August 11, 2011 by priscilla

[karensk]

:iagree: If it would make you feel better, call & ask them. I cannot see how they can possibly tell you not to use something that you bought to use within your own household.

 

A friend who's been using MFW for several years was recently told by a MFW rep (at a homeschool conference) that she was not allowed to make copies of the Student Pages for use within her own family. With the older editions of MFW, she was allowed to make copies for her children, but now with any current edition of MFW, she must purchase one set of Student Pages for each child.

 

The MFW rep told her that the reason for this changed policy is that parents were tired of making copies for multiple children. If that were truly the case, then MFW would be providing the Student Pages available for purchase separately as an option, not a requirement.

 

There doesn't seem to be anything official on the MFW website about this, so maybe the rep was just trying to get her to buy extra sets of Student Pages.