Singapore troubles

[lmrich]

My dd sailed through Singapore 2 & 3, and loved it. We have started 4, and we are both frustrated. There is just not enough practice. There was one lesson on Least Common Multiple and just one on Greatest Common Factor. I feel like I have to spend more time making up work for her to review these important concepts and complete the work for the next lesson. I am also unhappy that Singapore does not encourage the student to show her work. She is so used to doing math in her head, which is great, except when you have long strands of numbers... and I know from having taught my oldest Algebra - you better get used to showing your work.

 

So what else can I use? I have Rod and Staff 4 sitting on my shelf (not her favorite). I have the TE for Sadlier Oxford 4 and 5 but not student editions. My neighbor has Saxon 5/6. I have looked at Math Mammoth, but everyone says it so much like Singapore, I don't know. I looked at CLE and that looks like Rod and Staff.

 

We use TT in the summer (she is 1/2 done with 5).

 

Any suggestions? Should I just trust that Singapore will work in the long run? Or jump ship now before she develops math phobia?

[lauraeden]

We liked Singapore 4. Do you have the workbook and extra practice?

[lmrich]

We have the textbook and the workbook. We also have the CWP from grade 3.

Would the extra practice make a difference? Is there review in there?

[....]

Don't get me started...:glare: This is going to be a very unpopular post...

 

I think Singapore is a very, very good program (or we wouldn't use it).

 

I've used Singapore from the very beginning, but I have to supplement. There is no way we can use SM without supplementing. We actually supplemented with CLE one year and it was the best year of math ever. :D

 

I would add either the IP workbook or the CWP workbook.

 

Every day, I give my kids 5 review problems.

 

Every day, my kids have to do math facts review (usually flashcards).

 

Kumon workbooks have gotten us over several bad spots (subtraction).

 

I have the "What Your Xth Grader Needs to Know" books and I go through the math with them there, too - to make sure they aren't missing anything.

 

As far as the not showing their work...:glare:...ah hah! We're NOT the only ones. ;) My 9 yro can do long division in her head (which I admit is awesome), but I had to explain to her that she needs to have the "ability" to show her work. When I was in school, our teacher would've just marked it all wrong if we didn't show how to work a solution. I understand the idea of mental math, but I feel like they need to be able to explain to other people how to come up with the answer.

 

My kids seemed to have all wallowed in SM 2B for some reason. Also, the beginning of 3B was rough and we really had to slow down.

 

I read that when we finish 5B, we can move into Saxon 7/8. You could stick it out until 5b and then move into Saxon. This might be what we end up doing.

[....]

We have the textbook and the workbook. We also have the CWP from grade 3.

Would the extra practice make a difference? Is there review in there?

 

My kids thought parts of the IP were very difficult. I think that's why people say to use it a semester behind where you are in the textbook/workbook.

[amsunshine]

I also felt there was not quite enough practice in the text/workbook alone for LCM and GCF -- for whatever reason, those were the only concepts I felt needed a little more practice in level 4 -- my dd flew through the rest of 4A and 4B. (Caveat: I regularly use the EP, tests, IP and CWP to reinforce/review concepts as well).

 

However, you don't mention using the HIG -- I highly recommend getting the HIG at least for this level and up, if you aren't using it already. The HIG has a number of activities and games to reinforce LCM and GCF for those particular lessons. It has a lot more than what is in the text -- really, it is very rich in teaching material, in addition to containing mental math drills which are wonderful.

[abrightmom]

Don't get me started...:glare: This is going to be a very unpopular post...

 

I think Singapore is a very, very good program (or we wouldn't use it).

 

I've used Singapore from the very beginning, but I have to supplement. There is no way we can use SM without supplementing. We actually supplemented with CLE one year and it was the best year of math ever. :D

 

I would add either the IP workbook or the CWP workbook.

 

Every day, I give my kids 5 review problems.

 

Every day, my kids have to do math facts review (usually flashcards).

 

Kumon workbooks have gotten us over several bad spots (subtraction).

 

I have the "What Your Xth Grader Needs to Know" books and I go through the math with them there, too - to make sure they aren't missing anything.

 

As far as the not showing their work...:glare:...ah hah! We're NOT the only ones. ;) My 9 yro can do long division in her head (which I admit is awesome), but I had to explain to her that she needs to have the "ability" to show her work. When I was in school, our teacher would've just marked it all wrong if we didn't show how to work a solution. I understand the idea of mental math, but I feel like they need to be able to explain to other people how to come up with the answer.

 

My kids seemed to have all wallowed in SM 2B for some reason. Also, the beginning of 3B was rough and we really had to slow down.

 

I read that when we finish 5B, we can move into Saxon 7/8. You could stick it out until 5b and then move into Saxon. This might be what we end up doing.

Thanks for sharing this. You wouldn't believe how helpful it is. I hope the OP finds encouragement and food for thought.

 

How did you mesh CLE and SM that one awesome year? Why didn't you continue with that plan?

[lmrich]

Thank you for understanding. I know Singapore is considered the "gold" of the math world. However if was teaching this in public school or even in private the kids would be so lost! I can't imagine giving the kids so little time to learn new, important skills.

[....]

Thanks for sharing this. You wouldn't believe how helpful it is. I hope the OP finds encouragement and food for thought.

 

How did you mesh CLE and SM that one awesome year? Why didn't you continue with that plan?

 

:001_smile: That CLE + Singapore year was awesome. We basically did a CLE lesson every day and a SM exercise every day. I didn't keep doing it a second year because it was so hard to do two math programs at once (sadly). And I have 4 kids. :D

 

We are currently using Miquon as a math lab 2-3 times a week.

 

I think CLE is also a very good program. I also like Math Mammoth...Saxon for the upper levels looks good...if only we could do them all! :tongue_smilie:

[amsunshine]

I am also unhappy that Singapore does not encourage the student to show her work.

 

I missed this part of your post the first time around. I wanted to mention that I have a requirement that my kids show their work on their problems. I also require that they write their answers to word problems in complete sentences. :)

[swainsonshawk]

I have switched to different math programs many times: Rod and Staff, Math U See, Horizons, Teaching Textbooks, Rightstart, a couple of other things. These were for three different children, not only one. I have always come back to Singapore because I can't find anything to beat it.

 

That said, I will ALWAYS stop and review if there is a concept that has gone by too fast for a child. And that happens about once every other book or so. I guess I prefer to slow down a somtimes fast moving program rather than weed out extraneous stuff from a slow moving one.

[Snickerdoodle]

I sometimes add worksheets printed from here to review concepts or drill as needed.

 

I wouldn't switch programs for what you are describing.

[Stacie Leigh]

We're supplementing with Math Mammoth by topic this year to help make concepts stick. It's a very effective and inexpensive way to tackle the problem! :)

[lmrich]

I spent some time looking over the rest of the year and am still undecided. Saxon 5/6 looks too easy although there are concepts we have not covered so I can not skip the whole thing. I have made a daily math notebook for her to review the concepts that I think Singapore does a poor job with - measurement is a huge problem for me with Singapore. I feel as if I am holding her hand too much. I want something that I can teach her and then let her go off and practice. I hate that I am waffling.

[lmrich]

In 3b there was so little time spent on measurement - how many quarts in a gallon etc... but she was expected to be able to subtract and add those. That was hard for her. I do recall that there were three supplemental lessons in the HIG for English measurements that we completed.

 

I guess my issue is that if she is struggling with the new concepts and Singapore is not providing her with enough practice, is Singapore still the right choice for her.

 

Today we learned the order of operations. We did the textbook examples on the wipe off board together. Then she did the textbook on her own. She did terrible. After lunch I gave her two more problems and she got them both wrong. There is one more lesson on this. Of course I will keep reviewing with her until she gets it. But I wonder if she is struggling maybe I should I find a math curriculum that teaches to her better. It appears that she needs more time on each concept than she is being given.

[amsunshine]

We recently completed the sections on measurement in 3b with my younger dd. There are approximately 7 weeks devoted to units of measurement, which doesn't seem short to me. For gallons, quarts, etc, there is a section in the HIG that has some supplementary activities and games to do for reinforcement...did you have your dd play the games? (i.e., the game with the index cards with numbers and units of measurement on them -- p. 51 of the HIG.) Did you do the mental math pages for those units? You could use those mental math pages over and over as review, if you need to.

 

It's possible you might just need to move a little slower through the curriculum than you have been and make sure you use the extra activities in the HIG. I also think it would be beneficial to get the EP and/or tests books to provide extra practice.

 

I can't comment on other math programs as I don't use them -- but I do think that there is plenty of extra practice available for Singapore if you need it.

[lmrich]

I didn't have the IG for 3B. I have it 4A and 4B. I am following their pacing.

[brownie]

We struggled with 4A as well, starting 4th grade. We forced our way through by creating our own review sheets and tutoring in the evenings after we realized he failed the final miserably. Then once he got a B, we moved into Saxon 7/6 successfully. He is finishing up Saxon 7/6 this month as he starts 5th grade and is ready to move into pre-algebra.

 

I love Singapore and ds8 is still working through 4A...I don't feel the pressure to finish with him on schedule since he's so young so we are taking our time and have supplemented with Key to fractions, IP and CWP as well as reading through LOF fractions. We are nearly ready to move on to 4B I think (which seems much easier!) so I am hoping to stick with Singapore for this child.

 

I think fractions are much more difficult to grasp than decimal math but similar time is devoted to both unfortunately. Brownie

[Crimson Wife]

The LCM and GCF is touched upon briefly in 5A but again there's hardly any practice. And what really frustrates me is that 5A teaches prime factorization but not how to use prime factorization to find the GCF :glare: I went ahead and taught DD that on my own.

[jennynd]

I grow up in Taiwan, I didn't think LCM and GCF are really that big deal when I was in elementary and I don't think that was a main topic when I was in elementary. and when they go on pre-algebra, it become such a easy and intuition thing, that was not even really need to be taught. (NEM 1 does have a review on it) I supposed ne big question is why is it needed to be taught at 4A?? It really not link to anything. other than a bit with fraction.

As far as writting down steps. I force my son write it down sometimes but sometimes I just let him do everything in his head if it just a calculation question like average.. ratio, I do request him to write down steps for word problems.

Edited August 8, 2011 by jennynd

[Halcyon]

My son is beginning 4A next week. Whenever we've needed extra work in SM (as we did when subtracting measurement units) I simply create extra worksheets, slow down for a week or two, and then give him a test at the end to be sure he's grasped the material.

 

I have no problem slowing down over difficult areas, and speeding up in easier sections.

[lmrich]

Thanks for your input. I am still concerned that she is not getting it. I want to use the most rigorous math program, but if she is failing what is the point? I will always reteach and add to the program when she is struggling. But that is kind of my point.

 

I do not want her to hate math or to feel as if she is not a good math student. However she is a good enough math student to know that missing 10 out of 24 is failing. I don't want her to just get a 100% because the work is too simple either.

 

A funny math story from today. She was doing CWP from grade three. The first problem..

John had $30.80. He used $3.80 to buy a pen and the rest of the money to buy identical books. How much did each book cost? She figured that out easily.

 

THe next problem said...

Sam had $71.40. He bought 8 identical books and had 23.40 left. How much did each book cost?

She was excited because it was the "identical" book so it must cost $3.00.

[wapiti]

LCM and GCF are nice to know for fractions, so that's probably the reason they're taught relatively early.

 

MM teaches LCM and GCF in 6A in the chapter on number theory, though MM teaches fractions extensively in 5B.

 

I also vaguely recall GCF being taught in Key to Fractions, book 2.

 

For extra practice generally, I'd look to the other SM workbooks and also free worksheets from MM. Specifically, see the links for factoring worksheets in the 6th grade level and also here for making your own.

 

Or, if you'd like instruction to go along with extra practice, you might try the MM Blue topic book that includes factoring and primes, Multiplication Division 3 (see the contents; in particular **one of the factoring lessons** is included in the free on-line sample). ETA: I don't know where GCF and LCM are taught in the Blue topic books, though "Simplifying Fractions Using Factoring" is taught in "Fractions and Decimals 3."

Edited August 9, 2011 by wapiti

[lmrich]

That makes me feel better...to know that some of these skills are advanced for a fourth grader. She is a perfectionist and can't stand not knowing how to do something.

[boscopup]

I have looked at Math Mammoth, but everyone says it so much like Singapore, I don't know.

 

The methods taught are similar, but Math Mammoth tends to explain things a bit more thoroughly (Singapore expects kids to make some conceptual leaps on occasion, or so I've heard from Singapore users). Math Mammoth also has LOTS of practice. In fact, one complaint people have is that there are too many problems. ;) There is also a worksheet generator, but you don't need Math Mammoth to use it. It's free: http://www.homeschoolmath.net/worksheets/

 

I'd suggest getting the MM topic books for whatever your DD is having trouble with, and using that worksheet generator to make any extra practice she might need. See if that helps, and if she's still struggling, then consider switching programs.

[kalanamak]

I sometimes add worksheets printed from here to review concepts or drill as needed.

 

I wouldn't switch programs for what you are describing.

 

:iagree:

 

I paid for this service:

http://themathworksheetsite.com/

 

and when I've asked for a specific sheet for extra practice, he makes one! Free trial.

 

EP is just extra practice. I use US edition, but get the Standards edition for the EP, because it DOES go over the explanation again!

 

We are 30 pages into 4A, and I start every class with a quick review of some topic, like rounding, factors, multiplying by 10s, and then end every class with a run through the flash cards of math facts, or a quick page of drill. For a factors drill, I'll write:

15:

12:

and have kiddo name the factors of each, and then pick out the common ones, which I circle together. Same kind of thing with multiples.

 

I love SM for its bare bones-iedness. We whip through what we whip through and linger and review what we don't. Keeps things exciting for both of us.

HTH.

[kalanamak]

The methods taught are similar, but Math Mammoth tends to explain things a bit more thoroughly

 

I've always been mystified by this opinion. To me, SM barely explains anything. It gives ME a tip-off as to what I need to do to teach kiddo. MM is much more explicit in the steps, but my particular child doesn't click with the MM explanations. If your child is working more independently in math, it might make sense, but it doesn't work for us. I've used 3 MM books so far for extra practice, but the space for kiddo to do his writing is small for him, and sometimes I'm not clear on why she is introducing what she is introducing.

 

I have a much more intuitive feeling with SM, and I like the fact it makes me 99% "the teacher". I start with kiddo, and if he looks blank, I "ask a simpler question"; if he looks glazed and bored, I spice things up with funny examples; if he is clicking with it, I tuck the ball in and run for the goal posts. Programs that are more programmed, like MM, are more ponderous and less flexible.

[NittanyJen]

Have you tried heading to Khan Academy for the videos and more problems? It is free and the quality excellent for a supplement.

[genestaz]

We've always used SM and I don't really have any complaints with it. Sometimes my kids get stuck on something. When that happens, we usually drop the lessons to three days a week and use the other days to play games that reinforce the concepts. Then we speed up again once they're over the hump. As we've gained more experience (and learned to anticipate what's coming up) we've also found ways to introduce concepts throughout the course of our daily lives long before we get to the lesson in the book, which has greatly reduced frustration for the boys. They are way more willing to listen to an explanation while we're sitting around a campfire or going on a bicycle ride than they are sitting down in front of a book. My goal is generally to use the lessons to ensure that we haven't missed anything, check for weak spots, and teach the written form of the concepts they're already using.

Some suggestions for practical teaching: cooking to teach fractions, allowances (and lots of changing money) to teach money, making their own calendars and using them to track their schedules to teach time, and lots and lots and lots of drill games just about anytime you find yourself stuck in traffic.

So far, the single most useful math tool in our house has been Monopoly. When my son was almost 7 he became absolutely addicted and he hasn't shed a single tear over math since.

I've found that my kids tend to learn math much the same way they learn language. They'll get stuck for awhile and then when it suddenly clicks they'll surge ahead for awhile. Then they'll get stuck again. I think the trick is to avoid frustration when they're stuck and not worry about it too much. Just give them the time they need and they'll make up for lost time later. My five year old (whose working in 1B at the moment) is perfectly capable of going through 4-5 lessons a day when he's in surge mode, so who cares if he spends two weeks on a single lesson when he's stuck? Oh, lots of creativity when they're stuck also helps. It seems that if I can think of at least 5 different ways to explain something, one of them is sure to make sense, rather than beating the same drum over and over and hoping that it'll work at some point.

What else? Making explanations silly helps the kids avoid boredom a lot, or thinking of some little reward for right answers on something they're struggling with (such as, you can bounce the ping pong ball off the ceiling for each correct answer, or take a victory lap around the house or eat one grape). My five year old particularly enjoyed having the numbers talk to each other when we were learning to add within 20 ("So Mr. 8 says to Mr. 7 hey, hey, I need a 2 to make a ten. Mr. 7 says okay, here you go and now he has 5 left so 8+7 is 15")

All in all, I do like SM as it seems to lend itself to creativity and my boys are certainly doing well with it, but I doubt they would if we followed it rigidly or if we didn't throw in all of our little extras throughout the rest of life.

Hope someone finds some useful ideas in the midst of all my rambling:)

 

Genesta

[lmrich]

I think the HIG is actually messing me up. I am taking their plan on how to combine lessons too rigidly. I will reteach, and have her practice again today on the concepts that we have already gone over. She told her dad that she failed math... I hate to hear that. So I will make sure she has success today. Thanks everybody.

[TKDmom]

I am going to second (or third) the recommendation to take a look at MM. Even if you just get one of the Blue series topics to supplement your work in SM. I had to switch my (perfectionist, math-hating) dd to MM several months ago. She had just finished SM 3B and we were both really frustrated with the way it taught certain concepts. I'm much happier with MM for her. It teaches concepts in a more step-by-step manner. And I feel like it does a better job at gradually increasing the difficulty level of the problems in each section.

[Education Explorers]

 

However, you don't mention using the HIG -- I highly recommend getting the HIG at least for this level and up, if you aren't using it already. The HIG has a number of activities and games to reinforce LCM and GCF for those particular lessons. It has a lot more than what is in the text -- really, it is very rich in teaching material, in addition to containing mental math drills which are wonderful.

 

We haven't started yet (we are starting on the 22nd). We will be starting with Singapore 4A. I know that her private school did not teach LCM and GCF because she completely blew that section of the placement test. So obviously, this thread is of great interest to me. (Who doesn't love to head off problems before they start?) But I have to ask, what in the world is HIG???

 

I have the teacher's manual, the text book, the workbook and the word problem book. What is HIG?

[Snickerdoodle]

Home Instructor's Guide

[Snickerdoodle]

Here's a link

[Education Explorers]

I was calling the HIG the teacher's manual. For once, I had my bases covered. Too bad I didn't even realize it.:)

 

Thanks for the clarification! I appreciate it.

[oneplustwoIdaho]

Have you tried heading to Khan Academy for the videos and more problems? It is free and the quality excellent for a supplement.

 

:iagree: My son had been in PS K-3rd using Saxon. Despite always being advanced in math, he struggled with long division only because he wasn't consistently completing all of the steps (laziness). We started HS last year using SM because he disliked the repetition of Saxon. I put him in front of the Khan Academy video for long division and it helped. He needed reinforcement that he had to do the steps every time. It is a great back up when you need another perspective. I also use math fact sheets that I print off of the internet. I am going to use Saxon to supplement this year to cover topics SM does not cover (Roman numerals, square roots, etc.) at this age, just so he has at least had exposure.

[melmichigan]

We had our best year of math the year we used SM and CLE too! This year we are finally jumping ship and going with CLE. We tried MM but it doesn't click. It was very hard, especially with all the talk on these boards, to finally say enough with SM, I too wanted the most rigorous program. I hope you find what works for you.

[oneplustwoIdaho]

I'm curious. Could you say a little more about exactly how you're using Saxon to supplement SM? We are using SM, but also have Saxon on the shelf (spending accident triggered by a bad case of math curricula confusion).

 

Sorry I'm late to respond. I am just going through the Saxon HS 5/4 manual (I have that and the answer key, bought used for $10) and using it go over anything we didn't do in SM. Some concepts are just covered in a different order, so I think only square roots and Roman numerals are what we will take from Saxon 5/4. I knew those were covered in Saxon in 2nd/3rd grade as that is what Dc used at the PS. Also, Saxon goes over the calendar more, but I make up my own calendar exercises and we do that once a month. If the local school district didn't use Saxon, I doubt I would use it at all. I really only do it out of concern that our circumstances will change resulting in return to PS. In reality, it is not a big deal though. I suppose it could serve as a back up if they were stuck on a concept, just because a different approach can sometimes help, but I haven't had to do that yet. I didn't get the manual until after the long division issue, but I still think I would use the Khan Academy first in that case.

[lmrich]

I have taken the last two weeks to make up my own math for her. She loves to do work on our giant whiteboard. I can add a ton more problems for her to practice and review, and she doesn't know that it is not in the book. Order of operations was also hard for her in Singapore but after extra practice she has it now. (she was telling her friend that she learned the order of surgery in math:lol:) I have looked ahead and the next few chapters look so much easier for her. So hopefully we can stay on track.

[tenoraddict]

Definitely use the Extra Practice and Challenging Word Problems books that Singapore sells. I also print extra practice sheets from online and use Khan Academywhen they need a different explanation of a concept. My DS 13 did Singapore Standards Edition for 2 years (finishing with 6B), supplemented by Life of Fred in the summer. He tested into Veritas Academy's Algebra I for 7th grade this fall with little problem.