How did I end up with such a rude child?

[YLVD]

Dawn, I have one DS with sensory issues, dyslexia, and likely Asperger's, who's super sweet even though so many things bother him. Then there's DD 5. She's the one with the official SPD diagnosis, and while OT has helped immensely, she is just...so different than my others. It's so hard to deal with. Her therapist has explained that her little body feels as though it's in fight or flight mode all the time, and it just wears. her. out. It's also not something that her health will be able to support long-term, which is why we're doing everything we can to help her. Sometimes I wonder if we're making any progress at all, though.

 

One of my deepest hopes has been that she's not dyslexic, as she's my other lefty, like DS (they both get the left-handedness from me, and dyslexia runs in my DH's family). I just don't feel like I have the energy to deal with all of that again, especially with her, oh, my word, I can't imagine. Over the last few weeks, she's been showing some signs that she may go the other way and be fairly precocious with academics, and now I'm thinking that may be worse!

 

Anyway, all this to say that something in your original post just struck me, and I just wanted to offer :grouphug: to you. The one thing that I emphasize over and over with DD is empathy. So, for example, if she loses a game to me, I explain how it makes me feel that she wishes I would have lost, and that when she wins, I'm happy for her, but it makes me sad that she can't feel the same for me. This seems to be the thing that my other kids do automatically that, for whatever reason, she doesn't, and it bothers me. My DS 3.5 is much better at this sort of thing than she is.

 

Last night when we got home, she threw a fit as we were pulling into the driveway, and after everyone else went into the house, I had her help me pick up the trash (her mess that she had made on purpose) on the floor of the van. She actually said, "I'm not picking up trash. That's your job." We had a conversation about why she thought that she was too good to do something that she thought I should do for her, and how that made me feel. Then I turned the tables on her and asked her how she would feel if I made picking up everyone else's trash her permanent job. (which was so tempting at that moment...)

 

I understand what you're saying. Yes, of course there was a consequence, but I want the motivation behind the behavior to change. Moments like this have happened since she was old enough to speak. None of my other children are anything like this. There's something else there, and it's exhausting to deal with, but I'm determined, just like you, that my child understands the effect her behavior has on other people. Although she would never say such a thing to anyone else, ugh.

 

It's hard when you've been a perfectly effective parent for years, and then suddenly you have a child who is so "out there" that you feel like you must become a totally different parent just for them.

 

I just want to give you :grouphug: I think that you handled that particular situation incredibly well. I would have done the same.

[YLVD]

I put the words, "all the right things," in quotation marks precisely because I don't believe there are any parenting experts. Frankly, you are one of those "parenting experts" I was talking about. You know, the kind who have well mannered kids and pat themselves on the back because they think it is a result of their parenting when it just might be the kid's temperament, maturity level or the fact that the child does not have a brain function problem, i.e. ADHD, Asberger's Syndrome or Autism.

 

Hmm, where do I fit in?

 

I have a well mannered child and I have a brain function problem, or multiple ones. I know what would have worked well for me and I wish that my parents had known that as well.

[leeannpal]

As someone with severe ADD and Bipolar disorder, I disagree that these tools simply don't work. Maybe for some, but not many.

 

When my parents were actually consistent, a bit more authoritative, I did much better than when they handled me with kid gloves. I was a tough child and teen. I won't go into details but with my mental health stuff, you can just imagine.

 

Looking back, I wish that my parents had put swift and harsher consequences on me. This is along with the proper meds or counseling. Those together would have made a huge and positive difference in my life. It's interesting but I'm in therapy and according to my therapist, that is related to a lot of issues that I've had in my adult life.

 

Even if we lack self-control or are explosive, etc..we need to be reigned in and shown that you can't behave like that in the world. It doesn't work without the proper emotional support. But it can be effective.

 

But even kids who are diagnosed with the same disorder are not carbon copies of each other. We do reign in DD. What I think you aren't hearing in my posts and the OP's post is that we are frustrated that we can't prevent the behavior in the first place. Why do we have argumentative, volatile, rude children? It certainly isn't because we let her get away with these things. I am still a private school teacher. I teach middle school students and have for years. Believe me, I know about discipline and consequences for behavior. As such, when my child was born, I just assumed that I would follow that pattern, she would learn from her mistakes and move on. Well, she had other ideas. It helped tremendously when she was diagnosed with ADHD and sensory disorder. Suddenly, I understood why spanking and time outs had been very ineffective for her. She still surprises us often with outbursts and challenges that seem to come from nowhere. We deal with them but have no idea how to help her have more self control. At this point she really has very little impulse or self control.

[Trish]

I would calmly and lovingly but firmly say "For that comment son, you will not have this privilege of staying up...when you can act more kindly, you get the privilege back."

 

The minute he calls anyone a jerk...Wii is off limits for a week. There has to be measured consequences...call me mean, but we had respect issues that always seemed to surround Wii...so I sold it on Ebay, all 35 games and the set. It was perhaps unfair to my other two children, but they knew we were doing this to help their brother learn a lesson. It worked, we just absolutely do not tolerate any name calling...or much of any other disrespect...10 years old is enough to know better. Be firm or it will get much worse in 6 years...we always do it out of love and not out of anger..and we show our disappointment for them that we have to take these measures...and to be honest, my children have never called my dh or me a name, our disrespect was more along the lines of not cleaning their room before playing Wii, not finishing homework before playing Wii, not being responsible in other words...that counts as disrespect in our house when we have set rules saying no wii until xyz is done...

 

This seems like a reasonable course to take by you, the parents. I would not label this "harsh discipline" -- having a consequence does not equal "harsh." I realize some kids go into Meltdown Mode if they are crossed, corrected or otherwise disciplined. I have one that does that on occasion. At that point we focus on "cooling down" the meltdown, but later the discipline issue is ALWAYS addressed. (okay, now that you're calm you will apologize to mom and dad in a nice tone, and you can read books or play board games tonight instead of watching TV or using your video games) There's no point in over-focusing on the discipline aspect DURING a meltdown, but later when the child is calm we certainly address it. We don't just let it go because he's "prone to meltdowns" or "that's just how he is." We just watch our timing with it so we don't increase the volume of a meltdown while it's occurring. That has no positive disciplinary effect, anyway.

 

But we do NOT let our kids get away with backtalk or disrespect. Mostly we deal with it right away, but even when we let it go, we revisit the issue in a calmer moment. If you allow that type of thing without challenge (either right away, later in the day or the next day), then it WILL continue.

[YLVD]

But even kids who are diagnosed with the same disorder are not carbon copies of each other. We do reign in DD. What I think you aren't hearing in my posts and the OP's post is that we are frustrated that we can't prevent the behavior in the first place. Why do we have argumentative, volatile, rude children? It certainly isn't because we let her get away with these things. I am still a private school teacher. I teach middle school students and have for years. Believe me, I know about discipline and consequences for behavior. As such, when my child was born, I just assumed that I would follow that pattern, she would learn from her mistakes and move on. Well, she had other ideas. It helped tremendously when she was diagnosed with ADHD and sensory disorder. Suddenly, I understood why spanking and time outs had been very ineffective for her. She still surprises us often with outbursts and challenges that seem to come from nowhere. We deal with them but have no idea how to help her have more self control. At this point she really has very little impulse or self control.

 

No, there are not carbon copies, which was my point. If you say that using harsher consequences with children that have these issues do not work, you are assuming that they are.

 

For some kids they will and for others they will not. That does not mean that it isn't worth trying. I am actually anti-spanking. I'm speaking more in swift and harsh punishment that does not involve spanking or hitting. Again, coupled with the emotional and behavioral support, never without that.

[Trish]

But even kids who are diagnosed with the same disorder are not carbon copies of each other. We do reign in DD. What I think you aren't hearing in my posts and the OP's post is that we are frustrated that we can't prevent the behavior in the first place. Why do we have argumentative, volatile, rude children? It certainly isn't because we let her get away with these things. I am still a private school teacher. I teach middle school students and have for years. Believe me, I know about discipline and consequences for behavior. As such, when my child was born, I just assumed that I would follow that pattern, she would learn from her mistakes and move on. Well, she had other ideas. It helped tremendously when she was diagnosed with ADHD and sensory disorder. Suddenly, I understood why spanking and time outs had been very ineffective for her. She still surprises us often with outbursts and challenges that seem to come from nowhere. We deal with them but have no idea how to help her have more self control. At this point she really has very little impulse or self control.

 

Well there's a gazillion strategies that work toward prevention of [insert undesireable behavior here]. Some are more effective than others, and some work with some kids and not others. For many of us it's a Trial and Error thing.

 

But I know there are some behaviors in MYSELF that I don't succeed in preventing (or inspiring) I don't expect 100 percent success with my kids either. You try your best with them, and then try to deal with the results in a constructive way. Children still have free will. And they can have other issues (temperament, medical issues, personality, etc) that cause them to act in certain ways. I don't expect I can "control" any of that, and I don't blame myself if someone has a meltdown.

 

I only blame myself if i don't try to deal with it in a positive and constructive way. Some stuff you just won't be able to "prevent," no matter how good a parent you aspire to be.

 

:biggrinjester:

[YLVD]

This seems like a reasonable course to take by you, the parents. I would not label this "harsh discipline" -- having a consequence does not equal "harsh." I realize some kids go into Meltdown Mode if they are crossed, corrected or otherwise disciplined. I have one that does that on occasion. At that point we focus on "cooling down" the meltdown, but later the discipline issue is ALWAYS addressed. (okay, now that you're calm you will apologize to mom and dad in a nice tone, and you can read books or play board games tonight instead of watching TV or using your video games) There's no point in over-focusing on the discipline aspect DURING a meltdown, but later when the child is calm we certainly address it. We don't just let it go because he's "prone to meltdowns" or "that's just how he is." We just watch our timing with it so we don't increase the volume of a meltdown while it's occurring. That has no positive disciplinary effect, anyway.

 

But we do NOT let our kids get away with backtalk or disrespect. Mostly we deal with it right away, but even when we let it go, we revisit the issue in a calmer moment. If you allow that type of thing without challenge (either right away, later in the day or the next day), then it WILL continue.

 

:iagree:

 

This is what I've been trying to convey but not very well! lol

[leeannpal]

:iagree:

 

This is what I've been trying to convey but not very well! lol

 

And I am on the other end of the spectrum of parents who do the things you are saying without the promised results. We are very consistent with discipline with our daughter. After a time of calming down in her room, we address the issue. What I've been trying to say is that there are some kids, my own included who do not seem to learn from this. She might do the same thing 30 minutes later. Yes, we follow up with discipline, but she has impulse and control issues.

 

Parenting is not a formula to follow. You can't say that if you do x,y,and z, then you will get these results.

[YLVD]

And I am on the other end of the spectrum of parents who do the things you are saying without the promised results. We are very consistent with discipline with our daughter. After a time of calming down in her room, we address the issue. What I've been trying to say is that there are some kids, my own included who do not seem to learn from this. She might do the same thing 30 minutes later. Yes, we follow up with discipline, but she has impulse and control issues.

 

Parenting is not a formula to follow. You can't say that if you do x,y,and z, then you will get these results.

 

I understand that. It sounds like you know what works with your daughter and that's great! I just wanted to throw out there that sometimes different formulas work, even with those of us that have brain and chemical issues.

[I.Dup.]

Yes, I read and enjoyed the book too. Does it work for my daughter? No way! But, then again, she has ADHD and does not respond to "normal" parenting measures. Believe me, we've been down that road.

 

I understand. The book was more freeing and helpful for my own mindset as a parent, than as a specific "guide book" on how to raise children that never have an attitude, etc.

[ChrissySC]

I am not sure if this has been mentioned, but when my girls get rude ... I go deaf. I just can't seem to hear them. I totally and absolutely tell them that I cannot hear them. If they say it rude again, I respond with something like "shucks, it sucks I can't hear you and I know it must be important". :D I love the eye rolling then!

[5LittleMonkeys]

Managing these kids is a mistake. Rather one must give them the time they need to learn to manage themselves. Our job as parents is not to manage or manipulate but to facilitate and exemplify the behaviors we want to see become habit.

 

 

It's the latter which is so hard

 

Your definition of manage and mine are obviously not the same. I'm sure it wasn't your intention but your post hit me the wrong way because I have been dealing with a child much like Dawn's for 12 years and she is making great strides in improved behavior because I have been managing her instead of simply letting her go through life bumbling along with her uncontrolled emotions and me simply exemplifying the behaviors I hope she eventually mimics.

 

I manage her. I direct her toward activities and people that will provide calm nurturing experiences for her, I control situations that may cause her to erupt, I teach her how to recognize when she is heading for meltdown, I give her ideas and tools for how to control her extreme emotions, I ensure natural consequences for her actions, when she is out of control I direct her back to a calm state. According to my understanding of the many definitions of manage...I am managing her and will continue to do so for as long as it seems to be effective.

[PRTGSw2K]

I direct her toward activities and people that will provide calm nurturing experiences for her, I control situations that may cause her to erupt, I teach her how to recognize when she is heading for meltdown, I give her ideas and tools for how to control her extreme emotions, I ensure natural consequences for her actions, when she is out of control I direct her back to a calm state. According to my understanding of the many definitions of manage...I am managing her and will continue to do so for as long as it seems to be effective.

 

How exactly do you do this (this is not meant in a snarky way-my 5 yo DS has these same issues, and I would love some ideas on how to help him)?

[calandalsmom]

I find it fascinating that the same people who are so interested in personal responsibility are so often guilty of blaming (bad) parenting for their adult children's drug issues.

 

I don't know. Maybe. I can't say with certainty that you are absolutely right or for that matter that I am. I can only go with my life experience. In my experience the parents of grown children that have said the same things to me that you have (what I bolded above) are the parents of adults hooked on some kind of drug/alcohol or being sentenced to jail time or on the run.

 

Edited July 31, 2011 by calandalsmom

[ChrissySC]

I find it fascinating that the same people who are so interested in personal responsibility are blaming (bad) parenting for their adult children's drug issues.

 

 

Hmmm ... something to think about for sure.:glare:

 

To what extent are we as parents responsible for their judgement and action?

 

At some point, we cannot do much more than provide opinions, gentle guidance, and pick up the pieces.

[HeidiKC]

:iagree:No one can be rude to you unless you allow it - including a child. If he isn't taught appropriate behavior (one way or another) he can't give the behavior you want. Truly this is a learned response. He gets away with it because you allow it. The first time "jerk" came out of his mouth the most dire of consequences should have been handed out.

 

 

I have to disagree with this. I haven't seen the OP's response to this or know how she has handled it. But I think it's easy for a parent who doesn't have a child who doesn't respond well to consequences to think this way. My first 2 boys respond well to consequences and know they are NOT allowed to talk that way, etc. My third also knows this, but ever since he was a baby I've had a hard time disciplining him. He isn't really even a difficult child (he's generally well-behaved), but when he misbehaves he does not respond well at all to punishment, consequences, etc. When I say he doesn't respond well, what I mean is that the consequences do not change the behavior (he'll do it again the next day), no matter how severe. As horrible as this sounds, I was desperate and even tried hot sauce now and again for yelling/sassy talk. Of course he hated it and cried and I felt terrible...but it did not change the behavior. VERY frustrating. I could take his favorite toy away for a week and he'd sob, but the behavior didn't change. He'd lose dessert for bad table manners, and he cry and cry...but of course he did it again a couple nights later.

 

What works best with this child is redirecting, ignoring, and positive reinforcement. Not to say I don't still punish him for misbehavior, it just isn't effective. When he was 3 he went through a "shut up" phase, that horrified all of us, including my other boys. I tried all kinds of consequences, including soap in the mouth! This went on for months! Finally what stopped it was all of us ignoring it (which was very hard for my 5 yo who wanted to report all bad words at the time).

 

So I hate to think of my son calling me a jerk when he is 10, but if he does I hope no one will tell me it is because I allow it or don't know how to stop behaviors before they start or immediately. I can't imagine my older two calling me a name, but I won't be surprised if the youngest did (he used to call me a "meaniac" when he was 2).

[ChrissySC]

I have to disagree with this. I haven't seen the OP's response to this or know how she has handled it. But I think it's easy for a parent who doesn't have a child who doesn't respond well to consequences to think this way. My first 2 boys respond well to consequences and know they are NOT allowed to talk that way, etc. My third also knows this, but ever since he was a baby I've had a hard time disciplining him. He isn't really even a difficult child (he's generally well-behaved), but when he misbehaves he does not respond well at all to punishment, consequences, etc. When I say he doesn't respond well, what I mean is that the consequences do not change the behavior (he'll do it again the next day), no matter how severe. As horrible as this sounds, I was desperate and even tried hot sauce now and again for yelling/sassy talk. Of course he hated it and cried and I felt terrible...but it did not change the behavior. VERY frustrating. I could take his favorite toy away for a week and he'd sob, but the behavior didn't change. He'd lose dessert for bad table manners, and he cry and cry...but of course he did it again a couple nights later.

 

What works best with this child is redirecting, ignoring, and positive reinforcement. Not to say I don't still punish him for misbehavior, it just isn't effective. When he was 3 he went through a "shut up" phase, that horrified all of us, including my other boys. I tried all kinds of consequences, including soap in the mouth! This went on for months! Finally what stopped it was all of us ignoring it (which was very hard for my 5 yo who wanted to report all bad words at the time).

 

So I hate to think of my son calling me a jerk when he is 10, but if he does I hope no one will tell me it is because I allow it or don't know how to stop behaviors before they start or immediately. I can't imagine my older two calling me a name, but I won't be surprised if the youngest did (he used to call me a "meaniac" when he was 2).

 

 

Phases and responses - sometimes we just don't catch it quick enough, and then it is a problem.

 

It must be nice for some people to be such perfect parents though. :lol:

 

I know I am not.

 

And I tend to agree with a large portion of your response too.

[YLVD]

Phases and responses - sometimes we just don't catch it quick enough, and then it is a problem.

 

It must be nice for some people to be such perfect parents though. :lol:

 

I know I am not.

 

And I tend to agree with a large portion of your response too.

 

Yes, because that's EXACTLY what we said. Good grief.

[ChrissySC]

Yes, because that's EXACTLY what we said. Good grief.

 

 

Bless your heart ... I am re-reading. I think I must have missed something pertinent while trying to catch the last few pages.

 

:001_huh:

[YLVD]

Bless your heart ... I am re-reading. I think I must have missed something pertinent while trying to catch the last few pages.

 

:001_huh:

 

Sorry, didn't mean to be snarky. lol

[ChrissySC]

Sorry, didn't mean to be snarky. lol

 

 

:lol: I can take it! LOL

 

I have to get one little tidbit of work done so that I can go back and read!

[MelanieM]

I don't know. Maybe. I can't say with certainty that you are absolutely right or for that matter that I am. I can only go with my life experience. In my experience the parents of grown children that have said the same things to me that you have (what I bolded above) are the parents of adults hooked on some kind of drug/alcohol or being sentenced to jail time or on the run.

 

There are going to be as many opinions on what constitutes good parenting as there are parents here. Many styles, many philosophies. To the parent who asks for help/advice it will be like navigating a land mine field to find someone who parents similarly.

 

I know my thoughts and opinions about parenting are not popular here. But I honestly believe that there aren't as many truly "bad" kids as there seems to be in the world. (Not by any means saying that Dawn's young man is a bad kid.) I've my own theory as to how we got to this point. I'll spare you the details. I will say that I do think all children can be reached and taught the appropriate way to function in society. It takes work on the part of the caregiver(s) though. A lot of work. I guess in a nutshell you could say I'm more of a nurture than nature person.

 

I'm not entirely sure I'm clear on what you're trying to say here, so I guess I'll come right out and ask... Do you mean to say that parents who experience behaviour issues with their children simply aren't trying hard enough/doing a good enough job as parents?

 

My point wasn't that we should make excuses for our kids, but rather that we can be doing all the "right" things and *still facing challenges as parents*. I can assure you that when my son explodes for what appears to be no real reason, it isn't because I haven't been working with him, or haven't tried hard enough, or have excused his behaviour, or believe it's not my job to help him, or any other such thing. It's because this parenting gig can be a looooonnnnng road when faced with a child that is a little more high needs in this way.

 

Once again, sometimes a child can have a personality that makes everything into a HUGE hairy deal, and no amount of magic parenting philosophy can fix that because you're not going to just discipline it out of them. So you just do your best, and have a little faith that it will keep getting better. That's not blowing off responsibility... that's saving your sanity by learning to work with what you've been given.

[Parrothead]

I put the words, "all the right things," in quotation marks precisely because I don't believe there are any parenting experts. Frankly, you are one of those "parenting experts" I was talking about. You know, the kind who have well mannered kids and pat themselves on the back because they think it is a result of their parenting when it just might be the kid's temperament, maturity level or the fact that the child does not have a brain function problem, i.e. ADHD, Asberger's Syndrome or Autism.

I find this comment rude and uncalled for.

 

I never said I was an expert at parenting. You don't know me or my kid and have no idea what goes on in my family.

 

Often times on this forum (and the others) one is given the opportunity to express one's views on any number of situations. I said what would have happened if my kid called me a foul name. I won't apologize for it. It is what I would have done. I do not expect you or anyone else to do the same. I don't expect you to agree with me and I don't expect to agree with you.

 

In the same manner that I won't be spoken rudely to by a child, I won't be spoken to rudely by an adult. So I'm finished with any conversation with you.

 

I find it fascinating that the same people who are so interested in personal responsibility are so often guilty of blaming (bad) parenting for their adult children's drug issues.

I did not say I blamed bad parenting on adult children's drug issues. I was relaying what I was told time and again when I was in L.E. dealing with and looking for the a$$hole who had just beaten up his family member (often his mother) or stolen his parent's car or some such situation when I had cause to come into contact with the individuals parents. Time and again the parents blame themselves and admit over and over they had no idea how to parent effectively.

 

Also what I asked (without going back and quoting myself, you can do that if you are remotely interesting in conversing instead of taking potshots) was when does personal responsibility get taught.

[Parrothead]

I'm not entirely sure I'm clear on what you're trying to say here, so I guess I'll come right out and ask... Do you mean to say that parents who experience behaviour issues with their children simply aren't trying hard enough/doing a good enough job as parents?

No, not at all. I'm not even sure how you got that from what I said.

 

My point wasn't that we should make excuses for our kids, but rather that we can be doing all the "right" things and *still facing challenges as parents*. I can assure you that when my son explodes for what appears to be no real reason, it isn't because I haven't been working with him, or haven't tried hard enough, or have excused his behaviour, or believe it's not my job to help him, or any other such thing. It's because this parenting gig can be a looooonnnnng road when faced with a child that is a little more high needs in this way.

I realize this. I'm wondering if people aren't taking what I'm saying and internalizing it as some sort of attack.

Once again, sometimes a child can have a personality that makes everything into a HUGE hairy deal, and no amount of magic parenting philosophy can fix that because you're not going to just discipline it out of them. So you just do your best, and have a little faith that it will keep getting better. That's not blowing off responsibility... that's saving your sanity by learning to work with what you've been given.

I don't know why everyone is thinking I'm such a discipline fanatic. "Drastic consequences" does not necessarily mean "beat the child bloody." What kind of a freaking monster do you people think I am?

 

Yes, if my child called me a jerk I would swiftly implement a drastic consequence. I did not say what our drastic consequences are because each child is different and each parent has to find what the drastic consequence are for that particular child. I did not say harsh. I didn't say soap or hot sauce in the mouth. I didn't say a week without dinner. I didn't say lock the child in the basement. Sheesh.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I don't know why everyone is thinking I'm such a discipline fanatic. "Drastic consequences" does not necessarily mean "beat the child bloody." What kind of a freaking monster do you people think I am?

 

Yes, if my child called me a jerk I would swiftly implement a drastic consequence. I did not say what our drastic consequences are because each child is different and each parent has to find what the drastic consequence are for that particular child. I did not say harsh.

 

I get you, Chucki. But then apparently I spout "nonsense".

[Parrothead]

I get you, Chucki. But then apparently I spout "nonsense".

Thank you.

[Jan in SC]

Dawn- I think you probably have a son who feels very safe with you. He might use you to work things out when the world gets hard and frustrating. It doesn't feel very good when it's happening, but remember that it's a bad day, or a difficult stage.

 

Obviously you are dealing with this (retraining) and have dealt with this in the past, as you have posted about him several times before. Hang in there! I have a child that is similar. (based on your posts) Most people think he is polite and bright, even charming. He is. He just has impulse control issues that make being rational and polite difficult. When he is at home he is worse as he doesn't watch himself as closely because, truthfully, it exhausts him.

 

We have worked minute by minute, day by day, and it is getting better. I think my child would have an easier time if there was a message board for him to vent on the days that I lose patience with him!

[Trish]

And I am on the other end of the spectrum of parents who do the things you are saying without the promised results. We are very consistent with discipline with our daughter. After a time of calming down in her room, we address the issue. What I've been trying to say is that there are some kids, my own included who do not seem to learn from this. She might do the same thing 30 minutes later. Yes, we follow up with discipline, but she has impulse and control issues.

 

Parenting is not a formula to follow. You can't say that if you do x,y,and z, then you will get these results.

 

I get that. But in the short term at least, sometimes parenting doesn't feel all that "results-oriented." I'm still reminding them each time they forget their manners. Some things they got right away. Others are still a problem years later. Regardless. The reminder will still be delivered.

 

I am not suggesting that "consequences" will eliminate rudeness, backtalk or disrespect. Far from it! (in fact we haven't hit the teen years yet, so I'm sure that will be an ear-opening phase for us) But what WILL happen is that each time the rudeness, disrespect or backtalk occurs, the child in question WILL rephrase in a nice way. Whether it be immediately, an hour later or the next day.

 

That process will never change. They may or may not learn to control their emotions (hopefully with maturity they will!), but they WILL know how to deliver an apology and make it sound sincere. Whether or not it IS sincere is sincerely up to them. I apologize after I lose my temper. There's no reason they will not be expected to do the same.

 

:D

[MelanieM]

I don't know why everyone is thinking I'm such a discipline fanatic. "Drastic consequences" does not necessarily mean "beat the child bloody." What kind of a freaking monster do you people think I am?

 

Yes, if my child called me a jerk I would swiftly implement a drastic consequence. I did not say what our drastic consequences are because each child is different and each parent has to find what the drastic consequence are for that particular child. I did not say harsh. I didn't say soap or hot sauce in the mouth. I didn't say a week without dinner. I didn't say lock the child in the basement. Sheesh.

 

I don't equate discipline with abuse, or harshness, or extreme punishment, etc. so that's not what I was suggesting at all. That wasn't even my point, really.

 

You did say that this type of thing only happens because parents allow it to happen, and I've been trying to point out that sometimes, no amount of disallowing something makes a bit of difference. For example, for about two years now, my kid has been occasionally screaming with frustration that he hates me. I don't ignore it. My response is swift. I've tried all manner of techniques and consequences to deal with it. It still happens. Hopefully, one day in the not too distant future, it will completely sink in with him that it's totally inappropriate and it will stop happening. And I actually have a lot of faith that this is exactly how it will unfold... he'll learn with time and some further maturity, and we'll be golden. Until then, I'm not going to buy into the (false) argument that every inappropriate behaviour of his can be fixed by a simple action on my part. He's just not that type of kid. (And I do have another one that is exactly that type of kid, so I'm not unaware of how that works either.)

 

Also, just for the record, I'm not internalizing what you're saying as some sort of personal attack. I'm just trying to express my perspective on something that you admittedly have no direct experience with, to hopefully help you to see that it's not quite as cut and dried as you've stated. (That could be a more general 'you' there as I know you're not alone in your thoughts... you just happen to be the person I quoted originally.)

[Sahamamama]

Rude is: After I let him stay up late eating popcorn I made and watching a movie while playing chess with his brother (who let him take back his move too many times), he is told it is bedtime. He starts to stall, dragging out the game. He had lost at this point anyway. I insisted it was time to put it away and go to bed. For that, I was called a jerk.

 

And for that, he goes to bed early every night for a week. He simply may not call you "a jerk" without a consequence. You are his mother, for the love of God! If he calls you "a jerk" over this consequence, come down like a ton of bricks and give him another one, until he gets the point -- he may not speak to a parent rudely.

 

When he gets angry at the Wii, and we've grown tired of hearing him complain, yell, say "crap," etc, and we tell him it's time to get off, and then he calls us a jerk, throws the controller and then says it fell.

 

And for that, he loses the Wii for a week. If he regains the privilege of the Wii with good (perfect ;)) behavior, he is to clearly be told that all future playing will not involve yelling, complaining, saying "crap," or throwing a fit when he is told to get off the game. Any rude behavior will result in a two-week loss of privilege.

 

That's what I mean by rude.

 

I haven't read the other threads. Perhaps I'm stepping in a cow pie here, but what you wrote up to the above-quoted post indicates that Ben truly is a rude, inconsiderate, self-centered boy. You're not imagining it.

 

He needs a deep change of heart and mindset. He needs firm, consistent limits set to his poor impulse control and unloving comments. His actions that hurt need to be clearly labelled as hurtful. He needs to hear the truth that his words and actions do damage to the people who love him the most. His parents need to let him know, in no uncertain terms, that no family member is a doormat for his anger and disrespect.

 

One other thought I had from a mother with older boys: She said that boys in pre-puberty (and beyond, of course) need to do hard, physical work. When her boys hit that age (10, 11), she had to severely limit any screen-time or video games, in favor of physical labor. Her boys played hours upon hours of hot, sweaty basketball :tongue_smilie:(they were our neighbors), and then they would come in and drink a gallon of milk each :001_huh:, and go back outside to ride bikes for several more hours. In their mid-teens, they did all the yard work and both got jobs at Chick-Fil-A. Ben is ten, which may be a bit young for mowing grass, but is there any other outdoor, hard-work activity he could be doing? Dig a garden (for next year)? Work for your church? For a neighbor? My friend said her pre-teen boys were so grumpy and mouthy before she did this (they were), but the activity-focus settled them down in many ways. It had something to do with testosterone... I don't remember exactly. :lol:

 

Anyway, both her sons turned into kind, respectful, hard-working, God-honoring, handsome, :D wonderful young men, both are happily married (they are 23 and 26 years old now), and she is so proud of the men they have become. And to think I used to babysit them, change their poopy diapers and give them baths! :001_rolleyes: I feel old now.

 

Dawn, you will get through this with Ben. :grouphug:

[gingersmom]

I havent read all the responses.

 

Have you thought about taking him to a therapist? It sounds like he could use someone outside the family (and trained) to speak with.

[PeterPan]

I agree 100% with everything you have said. Things are much better around here after I read a book like Raising Your Spirited Child. I go through seasons where I focus on coaching him and being proactive. I've been incredibly busy lately trying to organize the house, get ready for a yard sale and get lessons ready for the upcoming year. Oh, and I host a graduation party for our eldest in two weeks (from Officers Candidates School). When I'm on my game, my goal is to help him learn how to handle his emotions. Once he is able to calm himself, he is completely back to normal again. If you try to "scold" or rebuke/correct him in the middle of a meltdown, it only gets worse.

 

I believe when he used to rock himself back and forth, he was attempting to calm himself. I learned when crisis hit, to hold him and be with him until he was calm. Then we were able to deal with whatever was overwhelming him. Losing at a video game is very overwhelming for him, so it may be that some of these are just too much for him right now.

 

Nest, I just wanted to ask if you've done a neuropsych eval and gotten the formal diagnoses and whether they then had any suggestions for you to pursue counseling or other therapies for them. My two cents would be not to walk the road alone. Once you realize you've got an issue beyond the normal fare, something that's not going to go away, you want to find all the help you can get to head things off at the pass. I've been reading a terrific book "No Mind Left Behind" by Cox that you might find helpful. It talks about emotional regulation as a facet of executive function and gives coaching techniques for each of the pillars.

 

And yes, I would concur with some of the others, that while they need *structure* and clear expectations and consistency, they also need a lot more help (coaching if you will) to get where they're going. I liked that Cox book so much I'm buying it (only got it for 2 weeks from the library and had to return!) so I can try to work on the techniques. It was just very meaty. There was also another book "The Nurtured Heart Approach" that was good.

[Parrothead]

I don't equate discipline with abuse, or harshness, or extreme punishment, etc. so that's not what I was suggesting at all. That wasn't even my point, really.

 

You did say that this type of thing only happens because parents allow it to happen, and I've been trying to point out that sometimes, no amount of disallowing something makes a bit of difference. For example, for about two years now, my kid has been occasionally screaming with frustration that he hates me. I don't ignore it. My response is swift. I've tried all manner of techniques and consequences to deal with it. It still happens. Hopefully, one day in the not too distant future, it will completely sink in with him that it's totally inappropriate and it will stop happening. And I actually have a lot of faith that this is exactly how it will unfold... he'll learn with time and some further maturity, and we'll be golden. Until then, I'm not going to buy into the (false) argument that every inappropriate behaviour of his can be fixed by a simple action on my part. He's just not that type of kid. (And I do have another one that is exactly that type of kid, so I'm not unaware of how that works either.)

 

Also, just for the record, I'm not internalizing what you're saying as some sort of personal attack. I'm just trying to express my perspective on something that you admittedly have no direct experience with, to hopefully help you to see that it's not quite as cut and dried as you've stated. (That could be a more general 'you' there as I know you're not alone in your thoughts... you just happen to be the person I quoted originally.)

Let me ask you this. Does anyone ever get to talk to you that way? Do you allow your husband, parents, in-laws, other people's children, boss, authority figure of some type, anyone to talk to you like that except your child?

 

No, it isn't cut and dried. Yes, sometimes it is time consuming and complicated to get a child to change behavior to something more appropriate. But it has to be done, and done often or we would all go around being rude. Do you have a house rule that words like sh*t, dam* h*ll, f*** aren't used? Why is it easier to get a kid to not be rude using those words but it is hard to get a kid not to say other rude things?

[calandalsmom]

I find this comment rude and uncalled for.

 

I never said I was an expert at parenting. You don't know me or my kid and have no idea what goes on in my family.

 

Often times on this forum (and the others) one is given the opportunity to express one's views on any number of situations. I said what would have happened if my kid called me a foul name. I won't apologize for it. It is what I would have done. I do not expect you or anyone else to do the same. I don't expect you to agree with me and I don't expect to agree with you.

 

In the same manner that I won't be spoken rudely to by a child, I won't be spoken to rudely by an adult. So I'm finished with any conversation with you.

 

 

I did not say I blamed bad parenting on adult children's drug issues. I was relaying what I was told time and again when I was in L.E. dealing with and looking for the a$$hole who had just beaten up his family member (often his mother) or stolen his parent's car or some such situation when I had cause to come into contact with the individuals parents. Time and again the parents blame themselves and admit over and over they had no idea how to parent effectively.

Also what I asked (without going back and quoting myself, you can do that if you are remotely interesting in conversing instead of taking potshots) was when does personal responsibility get taught.

 

 

Im sure they felt very comforted by your agreeing with them.:glare:

 

I don't really get your point. So because these parents didn't feel they'd been effective its proof that rudeness and criminal behavior is the parents' fault?

 

You know, you always wish you could do more and do better when your kids act out. That doesn't mean that the reality is that YOU didn't do enough or the right thing.

 

The reality is that you do the best you can, esp if you are as educated and invested as most women on this board.

[HeidiKC]

Let me ask you this. Does anyone ever get to talk to you that way? Do you allow your husband, parents, in-laws, other people's children, boss, authority figure of some type, anyone to talk to you like that except your child?

 

I think the difference is that if other people outside the family talked that way to her, she probably wouldn't speak to them again. She doesn't have this choice with her daughter. Also, adults are able to control themselves. It is much harder for kids to do (I'm not saying it's impossible) and they struggle all the time with various forms of self-control. So I'm not sure the comparison is fair or makes much sense.

 

I guess I'm not sure exactly how you think she should absolutely not allow this. I suppose it depends on what that child needs? But maybe that's the problem - so many parents are trying hard and maybe either can't figure out what the child needs or it is just a long process. She has obviously been trying hard for a LONG time and it is probably something the child will outgrow. I don't think that if a parent can't figure out what the child needs it means it's a lack of good parenting (not saying you said that), or that they aren't totally committed to figuring it out. It's just HARD. And I think it is difficult for these parents when they get what seems to me rather vague advice about absolutely not letting it happen and coming down swiftly in response. How - exactly? In their minds they have done this (and I believe they probably have), but it isn't working and they are trying to figure out what works.

 

I may be reading some of these responses from various people wrong, but sometimes I get the feeling that people think these moms of difficult children are the type that give in to the child or don't do much other than weakly say, "we don't say that in our house" and then let the child continue screaming and/or playing. And maybe some of them are. But I'm sure many are not and are exhausted with the effort of trying to figure out what works after being consistent, firm, etc.

[Parrothead]

Im sure they felt very comforted by your agreeing with them.:glare:

 

I don't really get your point. So because these parents didn't feel they'd been effective its proof that rudeness and criminal behavior is the parents' fault?

 

You know, you always wish you could do more and do better when your kids act out. That doesn't mean that the reality is that YOU didn't do enough or the right thing.

 

The reality is that you do the best you can, esp if you are as educated and invested as most women on this board.

I suppose.

 

I'm done trying to explain. Apparently I'm not doing anything except making myself look like an uneducated abusive know-it-all.

 

As I said earlier I know my parenting style/methods are unpopular here. I won't change mine by what anyone says. I won't change anyone else. Y'all have at it.

[justamouse]

I don't know why everyone is thinking I'm such a discipline fanatic. "Drastic consequences" does not necessarily mean "beat the child bloody." What kind of a freaking monster do you people think I am?

 

Yes, if my child called me a jerk I would swiftly implement a drastic consequence. I did not say what our drastic consequences are because each child is different and each parent has to find what the drastic consequence are for that particular child. I did not say harsh. I didn't say soap or hot sauce in the mouth. I didn't say a week without dinner. I didn't say lock the child in the basement. Sheesh.

 

I understand you completely. I parent the same way. It works well for us.

[Parrothead]

 

I guess I'm not sure exactly how you think she should absolutely not allow this.

How does one absolutely not allow a child to play in traffic, run after mom with a knife, beat the dog with a ball bat? If a parent has found a way to not allow those behaviors, why can't the parent use the same method to not allow calling mom and dad obscene or rude names? Whatever that method is. As I've said before I get that each child gets an individual method depending on needs.

[Parrothead]

I understand you completely. I parent the same way. It works well for us.

Thanks. I was wondering if I'm communicating worse than normal.

[calandalsmom]

How does one absolutely not allow a child to play in traffic, run after mom with a knife, beat the dog with a ball bat? If a parent has found a way to not allow those behaviors, why can't the parent use the same method to not allow calling mom and dad obscene or rude names? Whatever that method is. As I've said before I get that each child gets an individual method depending on needs.

 

I think what you are missing here is that kids don't generally want to run after mom with a knife, beat the dog or etc. Unless they have a mental illness. those really aren't issues the typical child's parents encounter, But mentally ill children do those things and its not bc their parents "let" them.

[Pink Fairy]

How does one absolutely not allow a child to play in traffic, run after mom with a knife, beat the dog with a ball bat? If a parent has found a way to not allow those behaviors, why can't the parent use the same method to not allow calling mom and dad obscene or rude names? Whatever that method is. As I've said before I get that each child gets an individual method depending on needs.

 

I don't get your examples. My rude child has never attempted to play in traffic, run after me with a knife, or beat the dog. The last two are probably indicative of a mental illness, not a discipline issue.

 

I don't know how to absolutely not allow my 9yo to be rude. The consistant, loving discipline that I've used successfully with my other children doesn't work. Harsh consequences don't work. In the moment he is unable to stop himself, even when I warn him that he will be losing a very desired privilage if he doesn't stop (so far, going swimming, bowling, and to a minor league baseball game). All I can do is keep trying, and hope that someday I will discover the magic formula--the one that other people with difficult kids who are absolutely not allowed to be rude and disrespectful apparently have. In the meantime I do the best I can.

[AK_Mom4]

The only think I found to work for my difficult kiddo was to walk away. Turn off the stove, shut off the oven, and leave the room. Depriving him of an audience for his rudness was the only thing that ever worked. He would follow me around (yelling of course), but I would shut the door and ignore him until it was quiet.

 

I can't promise success with this, but it was the "drastic consequence" that worked here.

[calandalsmom]

The only think I found to work for my difficult kiddo was to walk away. Turn off the stove, shut off the oven, and leave the room. Depriving him of an audience for his rudness was the only thing that ever worked. He would follow me around (yelling of course), but I would shut the door and ignore him until it was quiet.

 

I can't promise success with this, but it was the "drastic consequence" that worked here.

 

yes I find that removing myself works well too.

 

Not engaging is key. If you are stuck in a car just do not respond. remembering ross Greene's advice that you cant reason with someone who is irate/ upset makes a difference with my explosive son.

[Pink Fairy]

The only think I found to work for my difficult kiddo was to walk away. Turn off the stove, shut off the oven, and leave the room. Depriving him of an audience for his rudness was the only thing that ever worked. He would follow me around (yelling of course), but I would shut the door and ignore him until it was quiet.

 

I can't promise success with this, but it was the "drastic consequence" that worked here.

 

yes I find that removing myself works well too.

 

Not engaging is key. If you are stuck in a car just do not respond. remembering ross Greene's advice that you cant reason with someone who is irate/ upset makes a difference with my explosive son.

 

You know, I've never tried this before. I think I will though. One question. How do you keep said kid from following you and continuing to make his case in an unacceptable way?

[YLVD]

I understand you completely. I parent the same way. It works well for us.

 

:iagree:

 

I parent the same way and it works well.

[NotSoObvious]

Wow, just read a few of the other posts. I'm deleting mine. This is too much for me! Adios.

Edited August 1, 2011 by natnclay

[AK_Mom4]

You know, I've never tried this before. I think I will though. One question. How do you keep said kid from following you and continuing to make his case in an unacceptable way?

 

Mostly I would go into the bathroom, lock the door, and turn on the radio. If he kept yelling, I would run myself a long hot bath. Locking the door was about the best I could do (other than leaving the house and going for a long walk).

[Parrothead]

I think what you are missing here is that kids don't generally want to run after mom with a knife, beat the dog or etc. Unless they have a mental illness. those really aren't issues the typical child's parents encounter, But mentally ill children do those things and its not bc their parents "let" them.

 

I don't get your examples. My rude child has never attempted to play in traffic, run after me with a knife, or beat the dog. The last two are probably indicative of a mental illness, not a discipline issue.

 

I don't know how to absolutely not allow my 9yo to be rude. The consistant, loving discipline that I've used successfully with my other children doesn't work. Harsh consequences don't work. In the moment he is unable to stop himself, even when I warn him that he will be losing a very desired privilage if he doesn't stop (so far, going swimming, bowling, and to a minor league baseball game). All I can do is keep trying, and hope that someday I will discover the magic formula--the one that other people with difficult kids who are absolutely not allowed to be rude and disrespectful apparently have. In the meantime I do the best I can.

Don't limit it to just those examples. Every household has things that are absolute must nots. It doesn't matter what they are. For some it could be no playing in traffic. For others it could be no spitting. For some it could be not prank calling 911. For others still it could be no dumping dinner on the floor in a fit of anger.

 

Whatever one's particular must nots, how are they enforced? Why isn't rudeness a must not? Or why can't rudeness be disciplined/consequences/redirection/etc., the same way must nots are?

[YLVD]

Don't limit it to just those examples. Every household has things that are absolute must nots. It doesn't matter what they are. For some it could be no playing in traffic. For others it could be no spitting. For some it could be not prank calling 911. For others still it could be no dumping dinner on the floor in a fit of anger.

 

Whatever one's particular must nots, how are they enforced? Why isn't rudeness a must not? Or why can't rudeness be disciplined/consequences/redirection/etc., the same way must nots are?

 

This is what I'm wondering. I'm not sure if there will actual answers given though.

[Pink Fairy]

Don't limit it to just those examples. Every household has things that are absolute must nots. It doesn't matter what they are. For some it could be no playing in traffic. For others it could be no spitting. For some it could be not prank calling 911. For others still it could be no dumping dinner on the floor in a fit of anger.

 

Whatever one's particular must nots, how are they enforced? Why isn't rudeness a must not? Or why can't rudeness be disciplined/consequences/redirection/etc., the same way must nots are?

 

Okay, I think I get what you are saying. In my house, when ds is exploding the things that will work with him in other situations when he is calm won't work then. I still enforce the consequences, but it doesn't stop him from exploding the next time.