melmichigan Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 I was ready to cry! :confused: I went Friday for the final appointment with the neuropsychologist who evaluated my DD8. She said DD's learning problems are related to her Cerebral Palsy (a hospital screw up) and that her low working memory, low processing speed, and the fact that she has very poor visual memory (auditory learner) all lead her to conclude that giving her a calculator would be the best thing when it comes to her struggle with math. She was impressed that I have been able to keep her on grade level with math to date. :glare: We have been working with Singapore Math to date with lots of supplement. Now I don't know what to do. (I'll post on the Special Needs board but I just wanted to follow up from my last post where I asked for advice on my "twins who hate math".) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5knights3maidens Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Well, if you have her on grade level, I would say just to keep doing what your doing. Why give her a calculator; to make her faster?? Sounds to me like you are doing a great job without it. Keep doing what you're doing. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 I would try an addition and multiplication matrix. http://donpotter.net/PDF/Multiplication%20Matrix.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2GAboys Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 If she is 8 and you kept her on grade level in math and a professional implied to give up and give a calculator. I'd get a second opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnandtinagilbert Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Is he frustrated? Are you all struggling? If not, since you're on grade level, I'd say no; however, with those issues, perhaps once you get to around pre-algebra, you should consider it. We allow calculators at that point b/c of time constraints and we don't deal with cp. Best wishes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melmichigan Posted July 25, 2011 Author Share Posted July 25, 2011 I would try an addition and multiplication matrix. http://donpotter.net/PDF/Multiplication%20Matrix.pdf I like this idea much better than a calculator, thank you! Is he frustrated? Are you all struggling? If not, since you're on grade level, I'd say no; however, with those issues, perhaps once you get to around pre-algebra, you should consider it. We allow calculators at that point b/c of time constraints and we don't deal with cp. Best wishes. My DD is frustrated and she struggles. She just started reading well this last year. Her overall IQ is high but her working memory, processing speed and low visual memory mean she works very hard with everything, and I do mean everything, to the point it brings tears to my eyes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starwarsmomma Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 I posted in the other thread. IF she is struggling with tears for everyone, then I would pull back A LITTLE BIT. As a mom with a child with LD's, I try to push him to his abilities without killing his desire to learn. It's a hard line to walk some days. I've been there, doing that. Oh, and I LOVE LOVE LOVE the multiplication matrix idea!!!! SOOOO going to use that this year! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoPlaceLikeHome Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Well the great montessori school my ds attended in first grade wanted the parents to bring in calculators:glare: If she is really struggling and upset, then I would consider it after trying other measures first. How about Rock N' Learn Addition and Subraction and other titles. Perhaps music will help her to ingrain the facts better.:grouphug: My ds loved Rock N' Learn as a supplement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 We were just talking on the SN board about SPITTING on these people who say *can't* about our kids... I don't know where your dd's ultimate wall is, but I sure wouldn't create one before you get there. We too used a multiplication table to very good effect. When my dd got evaluated for vision therapy, she had the visual memory of a 2 yo. Might explain why she couldn't always remember how to form letters, lol! In any case, several months of VT and that was a lot better. So I guess I would ask if therapy can help any of those things, or if they're set in stone? Hit the wall when you hit it, not before you have to. Hard work builds character. You'll know when it's time to make the change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnandtinagilbert Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 We were just talking on the SN board about SPITTING on these people who say *can't* about our kids... I don't know where your dd's ultimate wall is, but I sure wouldn't create one before you get there. We too used a multiplication table to very good effect. When my dd got evaluated for vision therapy, she had the visual memory of a 2 yo. Might explain why she couldn't always remember how to form letters, lol! In any case, several months of VT and that was a lot better. So I guess I would ask if therapy can help any of those things, or if they're set in stone? Hit the wall when you hit it, not before you have to. Hard work builds character. You'll know when it's time to make the change. Love the matrix idea. If you've got tears, back off a little and try a few workable solutions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyforlatin Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 The multiplication matrix was used in my parochial school in the 70s when we first started to learn multiplication and we weren't allowed to use calculators. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i.love.lucy Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 I would try an addition and multiplication matrix. http://donpotter.net/PDF/Multiplication%20Matrix.pdf Elizabeth, I think I love you. OP, :grouphug:. I agree to take some time to work on the matrix. But working memory is different than long term memory, so even if she can store these facts away long term, she might not be able to work with them in the here and now. Could you take 10 minutes to work on this matrix every day while simultaneously using a calculator for some things? I allow my dd the Math reference sheet from CLE. I figure the more often she refers to it, it will burn in her memory. Why create frustration and time waste while she kicks herself for not remembering 9x8?! If she looks it up many, many times in the course of her work, she will remember it. I am seeing the fruit of this. Repetition, repetition, repetition...it the classical way! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotSoObvious Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 1. He's not an educator. 2. She's done well to this point, and with Singapore??? I'd say that's amazing. We are dealing with some similar learning issues, minus the CP, and Singapore is overwhelming for my dd. We do CLE and it is perfect. If Singapore gets to be too frustrating and you really want her to learn her facts, consider an approach like CLE where she'll get daily review. 3. No calculator, use the grid. I agree with that. It will at least allow her to see patterns and relationships- not just an answer out of thin air. There's always time later for calculators. 4. These professionals deal with school kids, so they are used to helping kids who are in survival mode. If she were in school, a calculator might be necessary so she could keep up with the class. 5. I used to teach and some of the neuropsych/psychologist reports we would get back were ABSURD! I had a psychologist diagnose a SIX year old, in the fall of first grade, with "math disorder" because she couldn't add or subtract (the test was paper and pencil, mind you). We hadn't even taught that yet!!!!! These reports are all good food for thought, but don't throw the baby out with the bath water. And for heaven's sake, challenge the child! Not to the point of tears, but if she is capable, she should know the feeling of accomplishment and you want her to reach her full potential. One more story and I'll stop. This just really gets under my skin. I am an adoptive parent (foster care) and I had another adoptive parent tell me that he took his FIVE year old in for a neuropsych and the psychologist told the father that the little boy will never live on his own, never get married, and will never have anything more than a basic, repetitive job (like on an assembly line, if that). I was floored!!! The child was severely abused and had only been with his new family for two years. Psychologists know some things, therapists know some things, teachers know some things, doctors know some things, but you're the mama! Take it all in and then take a good look at your daughter. You know best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyforlatin Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Wow, some professionals seem to thrive on telling parents that their kids can't succeed. Melmichigan's child is using Singapore and at grade level! Math Mammoth uses the matrix and has the student fill it out often. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melmichigan Posted July 25, 2011 Author Share Posted July 25, 2011 (edited) Elizabeth, I think I love you. OP, :grouphug:. I agree to take some time to work on the matrix. But working memory is different than long term memory, so even if she can store these facts away long term, she might not be able to work with them in the here and now. Could you take 10 minutes to work on this matrix every day while simultaneously using a calculator for some things? I allow my dd the Math reference sheet from CLE. I figure the more often she refers to it, it will burn in her memory. Why create frustration and time waste while she kicks herself for not remembering 9x8?! If she looks it up many, many times in the course of her work, she will remember it. I am seeing the fruit of this. Repetition, repetition, repetition...it the classical way! This is the big problem, her working memory. Then if she can pull out the information she has the low processing speed. I will look into the reference sheet you mentioned. She has completed CLE 100-250, it's just hard for her to manipulate what she has learned over time. Wow, some professionals seem to thrive on telling parents that their kids can't succeed. Melmichigan's child is using Singapore and at grade level! I think some of the concern is that she has lost 20 points on her WIAT math composite. But to me she still scored average so she can't be that far off from grade level, can she? (I don't have the actual number yet, but according to the graph I was given it is between 90-100.) She was high average before and is just average now. Edited July 25, 2011 by melmichigan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrsMe Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Throw the psychologist out and do what you're doing. You could change programs to something less abstract and requires less logic in the early years and you'll still be fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoPlaceLikeHome Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Similiar to the matrix is skip counting with a blank 100 square chart, I think:) It has 10 columns of squares and 10 rows of squares that make a large square. I used these for ds and would fill out the first number and ask him to skip count by twos or threes, etc. and fill out the chart. If she needs a reference, then you could let her use a 100 square filled in to a 100. Rock N Learn also has multiplication videos. Also BBC kids has some computer games for math as well that might be a fun way to help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TracyR Posted July 26, 2011 Share Posted July 26, 2011 I have two children, my 2nd and 3rd, that have low or short term memory issues. My 2nd daughter had seizures as a baby and my 3rd has mild CP. What I found that works best with them is curriculum that uses the spiral method. Have you at all tried anything like Saxon or Christian Light? My 3rd daughter struggled the year before because we used K12. A mastery method curriculum. We were with a cyberschool and the school thought we needed to have her tested. Which I was willing to do but it was kind of late in the year before they decided to do it. Fastforward to last year she repeated 1st grade and the school used Saxon math. All I can say with both of my girls the light turned on. I was surprised at how she took to it. The same child who struggled the year before with math was just whipping through Saxon and doing really well. She finished 1st with an A in math! Even her 1st grade teacher thought something was up with my 3rd and we had her tested. Guess what? The school district came in and tested her and she tested a 93/100 on their testing scores. No learning disabilities whatsoever. My 2nd scored an 83 though so she was border line for a child that would struggle. Fastforward to now and my 8yr old is just whipping right through the CLE math and is doing really, really well. I plan on adding some conceptual math like Life of Fred but I wanted to get her confident in math first, and she is. Both Saxon and CLE have seemed to help her learn her facts and learn math. If you haven't tried it please do and stop 'torturing' her with a math program that doesn't fit because a million people on here have said that Singapore math is the best. It is a good math program but it doesn't fit all children. I also found that practice , practice , practice helped a ton with math facts. My 11 yr old had an awesome teacher that did lots and lots of drill. Let me tell you she spits her math facts out quickly and correctly every time. Even makes her 13 yr old sister a bit jealous. So it was the constant drill of facts every day that made her this confident. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calandalsmom Posted July 26, 2011 Share Posted July 26, 2011 I don't understand the gross over reaction to the idea of a calculator. I find it all a little bizarre frankly. I don't at all agree a calculator prevents learning and I think it helps an otherwise competent student continue on rather than wallow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stellalarella Posted July 26, 2011 Share Posted July 26, 2011 Have you considered that routinely typing in the numbers on a calculator and getting the answer might actually be another way to repetitively study math facts? I am not saying this in a sarcastic voice at all, but really as a gentle question. :001_smile: i've used copywork (among many other things) to help one of my kids get her math facts down. We've worked so hard on this for 2 years now and yet she still struggles. I'm wondering if a calculator would help her! I mean, we've done everything else ad nauseum! There have been times when I have paid a professional to help me with a problem. Sometimes I did not like the advice I received and would have a strong emotional reaction to the advice and or person. I would then try to find a different opinion which would match my opinion. Then, later on, sometimes years later, I would realize the original doctor was right. I was just too wound up with issues to "hear." But maybe that's just me because I often fall into the pattern of thinking that I am usually right. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laundrycrisis Posted July 26, 2011 Share Posted July 26, 2011 (edited) Have you considered that routinely typing in the numbers on a calculator and getting the answer might actually be another way to repetitively study math facts? If you have her say the fact out loud with the answer each time it gets put into the calculator, it can be a great tool for memorizing the facts. IMO though I would do that for a while and then have her see what she can remember with the spoken words alone and no calculator. Our DS1 also has some memory and processing issues and using a calculator some of the time did help him to remember some of the facts. I think the combination of punching in the numbers while speaking the words over and over again helped him cement some of them. I want to clarify - I only allowed him to put in the basic facts using 0-9...not the entire problem. Edited July 26, 2011 by laundrycrisis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB Posted July 26, 2011 Share Posted July 26, 2011 I like this idea much better than a calculator, thank you! You're welcome! Elizabeth, I think I love you. :blush: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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